28/01/2018 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


28/01/2018

Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning everyone, and welcome

to the Sunday Politics.

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I'm Sarah Smith.

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And this is the programme that

will provide your essential briefing

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on everything that's

moving and shaking in

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the world of politics.

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Can the Conservative Party speak

with one voice on Brexit?

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As Tory splits spill out

in to the open once again this week,

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can the Prime Minister

reassert her authority

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over a divided party?

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We'll be speaking to the former

Conservative Cabinet

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Minister, Theresa Villiers -

hitherto a loyal voice,

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but who says she's now worried

about Brexit being diluted.

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Is Jeremy Corbyn heading for a fight

with Labour councillors?

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As local government chiefs accuse

the party's ruling body of trying

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to intervene in local decisions,

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we'll be speaking to one

of Jeremy Corbyn's key allies.

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And coming up here:

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After Friday's highs and lows

on the business front,

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how resilient is Northern Ireland

to global strategies

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and economic downturns?

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And how big a role can our

local politicians play?

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All that coming up in the programme.

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And to help me to make sense

of all the big stories today, I'm

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joined by Camilla Tominey,

Rafael Behr and Rachel Shabi.

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I'm sure they certainly

won't all speak with one voice.

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The newspaper headlines

make pretty grim reading

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for the Government this morning.

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'Tories in Turmoil',

'Brexit betrayal',

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'PM told to raise her game'.

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Tory Brexit divisions erupted

in public once again this week.

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So, is the Government's

biggest priority now

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becoming its biggest headache?

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Morning, Home Secretary. They

divided cabinet?

A new cabinet since

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that modest reshuffle but still the

same old Brexit split. Foreign

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Secretary Boris Johnson, who spent

so much time on that infamous boss

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promising extra money for the NHS,

went off Brive at the meeting on

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Tuesday, pushing the government to

honour that much maligned pledge.

Do

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you want to be the health secretary?

Philip Hammond was in Brussels from

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where he sent a swift review.

Mr

Johnson is the foreign secretary. I

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gave the Health Secretary an extra

£6 billion at the recent budget.

And

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labour leader Jeremy Corbyn piled in

at Prime Minister 's questions.

Does

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the Prime Minister agree with the

Foreign Secretary that the national

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Health Service needs an extra £5

billion?

I think the right

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honourable gentleman, as I recall

was here for the autumn budget which

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was given by the Chancellor of the

Exchequer, where he announced he

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would be putting £6 billion more

into the National Health Service.

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Meanwhile, Jacob Rees-Mogg took on

the Brexit Secretary David Davis

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over the transition deal.

We are

only actually out at the end of the

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transition. That is a big shift in

government policy and a big move

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away from the vault.

I do not accept

your description.

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your description.

Next day, Theresa

May travelled to the World Economic

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Forum in Davos to heal a different

divide, this time her special

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relationship with Donald Trump.

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relationship with Donald Trump. Her

Chancellor described in modest

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change in Britain's relationship

with the EU. Now he was being

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rebuked by furious colleagues as

well as his boss. David Davies

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insists the Cabinet are united. They

want a good deal.

There is no

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difference between the Chancellor

and myself and indeed the Prime

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Minister, in terms of the fact we

both want a Brexit that serves the

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British economy and the British

people.

The EU will set out their

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bargaining position for a phase two

of the Brexit negotiations tomorrow.

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But can we find an agreed British

response.

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So to discuss the implications of

all of the week's events I've got my

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expert panel. Welcome. Camilla,

these are quite remarkable headlines

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this morning about the party being

in turmoil over Theresa May's

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leadership and the direction of

Brexit policy. Let's start with

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Brexit. How deep are the divide?

I

think they are very deep. The tide

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has turned a bit in the last week.

Normally when you are covering these

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issues in the lobby, there is

underlying hysteria. I think there

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are quite a lot of people on both

sides scratching their heads,

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looking at some of the editorials we

saw in the week about the Tory

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party, particularly when referring

to Theresa May as a Wizard of Oz

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character. A lot in the Tory party

can't disagree with that. They

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regard her as a caretaker Prime

Minister. A lot of them have been

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giving her the benefit of the doubt

particularly on Brexit because she

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has been consistent about what

Brexit means. That did not mean

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leaving the single market and the

Customs Union. -- that it must mean.

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To have Boris Johnson and Philip

Hammond freelancing on the sidelines

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makes her look weak and unable to

keep the Cabinet together. That

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gives the general impression to the

country that they aren't quite in

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charge of things and that she

particularly isn't across her brief.

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The key question at the heart of

this is which of these Cabinet

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ministers are reflecting the Prime

Minister pots opinion on this --'s

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opinion on this. Does she agree with

Philip Hammond, or is she looking

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for a more significant divergence?

This is absolutely critical. We talk

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about Brexit divisions. We are used

to thinking about the division being

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about Remainers and levers. That is

not the division we are talking

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about. There is a group of people in

government who have now focused on

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the practical technical difficulty

of what is required to get Britain

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safely out of the European Union.

And they for the most part, and I

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will include the Prime Minister,

have understood it is a long

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incremental process. You want an

arrangement that looks pretty much

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like the status quo. If there is

going to be divergence from EU

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rules, it will be incremental. We

get the impression the Prime

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Minister has signed off on that

approach because she is a cautious

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person. The problem is the

Chancellor said it out loud. He had

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the temerity to say it. This is the

plan. You have the other group of

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people, the harder, more ideological

Brexiteers are not in government,

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who don't have to focus on the

practical reality, look at that and

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think, that doesn't sound like

emancipation and freedom, that

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sounds a bit boring. When you listen

to what some of the critics of the

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Prime Minister from the hard Brexit

position are saying, it is not

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obvious what they are asking her to

do. What they want from her is a

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sense of clarity, a sense of whether

or not she can have the confidence

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to stand up and say, the Chancellor

is right. They are testing courtesy

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of she can do that and she won't do

that because she doesn't want the

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huge tsunami of betrayal from the

right.

It is also impossible

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Bridgeford Theresa May to try and

cross. How can she reconcile these

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different views of what Brexit is

going to look like at the point

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where we have to start laying out

what Britain's approach will be?

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That is the problem. The divisions

are seemingly irreconcilable in the

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party. That is their own problem. It

has become a national problem

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because they are doing it while in

government. They have a over us

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while they are falling apart. That

is completely irresponsible. In

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terms of where we are going to end

up, we all know. We saw from phase

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one of EU that actually everything

was conceded to the soft Brexit

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model was conceded two in what was

agreed to during the parameters of

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phase one. It seems like, do we

really have to go through this all

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again, this pretend, this bickering,

this biting, when we know in the end

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we are going to end up with a

situation that is a soft Brexit

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because this is where the major

constituency is in Westminster and

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the country.

We have a couple of

guest to make disagree with that. We

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will return to you guys later.

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Well, the Cabinet Minister David

Lidington was talking

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to Andrew Marr this morning,

and was asked about the backlash

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on the Government's Brexit strategy

from Jacob Rees-Mogg and other

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Conservative MPs.

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Jacob, like everybody else, needs to

see how negotiations go. We are

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about to start negotiations. I'm not

going into detail about that

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process. Secondly, the very fact

that we will have left the European

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Union is a big deal indeed. The bill

in front of Parliament extinguishes

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the power of the European Court and

supranational EU law over the UK.

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I'm joined now by the former

Cabinet Minister, Theresa Villiers.

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She has written a piece in today's

Sunday Telegraph telling

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of her growing concern that

Brexit is being diluted.

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Thank you for coming on. What do you

mean by Brexit been diluted?

I have

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consistently argued the case for

compromise and I recognise it is

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necessary. What I was saying in my

article this morning was that if you

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go too far with compromise,

eventually you get to the point

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where we wouldn't generally be

leaving the European Union, we

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wouldn't be respecting the result of

the referendum.

You are concerned

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that is the direction they're

heading in?

I am concerned. We must

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retain the right to divergence Romeu

laws. One of the key points of

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leaving the European Union is to

ensure that we make our own laws in

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our own parliaments and not be

subject to laws made by people we

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don't elect and can't remove.

What

has made you concerned that is the

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direction in which we are heading?

Is it Chancellor talking about

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modest changes or something

happening behind the scenes?

It is a

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combination of things. I think in

part the government faces a

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difficult challenge convincing

people on the Leave side of the

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debate. So many times in the past

there have been Prime Ministers

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who've gone to Brussels and said, it

will be fine, we would bring you

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back a deal, and at the last minute

there has been, territory has been

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given away. We have made

compromises. I accept the need for

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that. There is only so far you can

go before ultimately you find

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yourself in a position where you are

deleting Brexit so much that it

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isn't leaving the European Union in

a real sense.

When you hear Philip

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Hammond say they will only be modest

changes to our relationship with the

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EU, you think he is reflecting

government policy? Downing Street

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tried to refute what he was saying.

Only actually said was, you can't

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call leaving the single market and

Customs union a modest change. You

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are anxious, are you, that right at

the top they are worried about

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keeping fairly close alignment with

the EU?

The Prime Minister set out a

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bold vision for Brexit in her

Lancaster House speech. My article

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is about appealing to the government

to stick to that vision and

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implemented so that once we leave

the European Union we are back in

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control of our laws, money and

borders.

The Prime Minister has set

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this out in Lancaster House and in

Florence. Why do you think she would

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be backsliding? Makes you think

anything has changed?

I don't think

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she wants to backslide. I think what

is happening is that she is under

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huge sustained pressure from a range

of quarters to reverse the result of

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the referendum. So in part, but I am

trying to do is to re-emphasise the

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positive case for Brexit. And we

emphasise that whilst there are

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those who want to soften things up

and frustrate the implementation of

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the referendum, others are

enthusiastic about implementing that

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vision in the Lancaster House

speech.

Were those people who want

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to frustrate her? You must be

worried they are right inside the

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Cabinet for you to write a newspaper

article about this. You must be

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worried if his right at the top of

government?

I don't believe that. I

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think the Cabinet is united in

wanting to do this.

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wanting to do this.

After the

different views we had this week?

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This is an issue that has divided

the country. The key battle now is

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what is going to be the end state we

ask for in the negotiations? We must

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ask for an end state based on the

Lancaster House speech, which means

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retaining control, making our own

laws in our own Parliament. That is

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how we have -- we become genuinely

an independent country again and

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respect the result of the

referendum.

Do you think the

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Chancellor was contravening stated

policy when he talked about modest

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changes. --? Was he out of line?

I

wouldn't make too much of that one

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comment. That has not wanted my

concerns. What I want to do is

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ensure the case for a real Brexit is

made. I fully acknowledge the

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technical scale of the exercise of

withdrawing from the European Union.

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It is very complicated. That is one

of the reasons why I have had a --

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advocated and supported compromise.

There is only so far you can go

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without -- with compromise without

finding yourself selling out on the

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people who voted to leave.

The next

phase will be about the

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implementation period before we get

to the final future relationship

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with the EU. We learned a little bit

more about the government approached

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and that this week. David Davis made

it sound as if there will be no

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changes to free movement of people

whatsoever during the two-year

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transition phase. Does that concern

you? That seems to be a change in

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policy.

For me, the important issue

is what happens at the end of the

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transition period.

You are relaxed

about two years of transition which

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looks most identical to staying in

the EU?

I accept that looks like

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what is current to happen. I think

there is a case for a transition

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period. I think my worry now is if

we go into the transition period

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without the clearest possible

understanding of what the

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arrangements are when we leave, so I

believe that we must have as much

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detail as possible in relation to

our agreement with the European

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Union, that we reach before the

transition period starts. If we go

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into it not knowing the end state,

that would worry me.

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When it comes to the end state, what

are the things you couldn't sign up

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to? What's being described as easy

movement of people in and out of the

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UK, would that lead to a point it

was a Brexit deal you couldn't agree

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to?

The key issues are the end state

must allow the UK to run its own

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trade policy and make its own

decisions on rules and regulations.

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So no involvement from the European

Court of Justice?

The Government has

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agreed a time limited role for that.

I don't see it as a problem but any

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enlargement of that role I would see

as worrying.

Do you think there's

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any possibility you could end up

voting against this in Parliament?

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I'm not going to make predictions on

how I will vote on a deal that

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hasn't been agreed yet. I want to

make sure we work together to try to

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bridge divisions, to come up with an

agreement with the European Union

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which gives us a new partnership

with them, which hopefully a

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majority can be comfortable

whichever way they vote in June 2000

0:16:410:16:44

16.

Thank you.

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Joining me now from

Newcastle is the Brexit

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Minister Lord Callanan.

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Can you offer any reassurance to

Theresa Villiers and any other

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members of your party who are

worried about this that government

0:16:540:16:58

is not going soft on Brexit?

We are

not going soft, there's been no

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backsliding on the Prime Minister's

Lancaster house speech. We will be

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regaining control of our laws, money

and borders. We will be establishing

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an independent trade policy as she

set out in her speech.

0:17:130:17:21

set out in her speech.

Theresa

Villiers is completely wrong when

0:17:210:17:23

she says she's worried Brexit is

being diluted, is she?

Yes, she is

0:17:230:17:28

wrong. It's not being diluted, the

Prime Minister is in charge of the

0:17:280:17:33

negotiations and we will be

negotiating with our European

0:17:330:17:37

partners in good faith, our friends

and allies, but the objectives

0:17:370:17:41

remain as she set out.

So it was the

Chancellor who was wrong when he

0:17:410:17:45

said there would only be modest

changes in our relationship?

No, the

0:17:450:17:49

Chancellor has said he is of the

vision the Prime Minister has set

0:17:490:17:54

out.

0:17:540:17:59

out. We will be negotiating with our

European partners to bring about

0:17:590:18:03

frictionless trading arrangements

but the important part of the

0:18:030:18:06

negotiations is that we have to

regain control of our ability to set

0:18:060:18:11

our own rules and undulations.

Though there may be some areas where

0:18:110:18:15

if there are integrated supply lines

we might want to reflect current EU

0:18:150:18:19

regulations but the important thing

is we decide those matters for

0:18:190:18:23

ourselves.

David Davis presumably

speaks for government when he is

0:18:230:18:28

describing the transition phase, and

he says during this implementation

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period people will of course be able

to travel between the UK and the EU

0:18:310:18:37

to live and work. That sounds like

free movement is continuing as

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before but we were told it would end

as soon as we left the EU in 2019.

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We would introduce a registration

scheme so we knew he was coming to

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the country.

You could do that right

now. This registration idea, this is

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not something that comes about

because we have left the EU, we

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could have introduced that years ago

if we wanted to. Several European

0:19:030:19:08

countries asked the UK citizens to

register.

Let's see what the

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negotiations produced, but what we

want to do is reflect current rules

0:19:150:19:19

and regulations as closely as

possible so that at the end of the

0:19:190:19:23

implementation period, and it's

important that is strictly

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time-limited, we agree with the EU

on that, at the end of that state we

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will introduce a new immigration

policy and take control of our

0:19:310:19:36

rules, regulations and borders. It

sounds

0:19:360:19:46

sounds a lot like a red line that

has gone very pale pink.

0:19:460:19:50

We are about to have the

negotiations. We will sit down in

0:19:500:19:54

good faith with our European

partners, talk about how the

0:19:540:19:58

implementation period will work and

what the end state will be.

But we

0:19:580:20:02

don't have to wait to find out what

the UK Government position is

0:20:020:20:06

because David Davis set it out this

week and pretty much described free

0:20:060:20:10

movement continuing as it is.

As I

said, we are having the

0:20:100:20:15

negotiations, we are about to start

them, let's not give away our

0:20:150:20:19

positions before we do that. We want

to reach an agreement as soon as

0:20:190:20:23

possible so we get certainty that

business knows where we are going at

0:20:230:20:27

the end of the period and we move

towards the new state at the end of

0:20:270:20:31

a strictly time-limited

implementation period.

So would it

0:20:310:20:38

be helpful if the Prime Minister

were to make another speech, where

0:20:380:20:40

she set out clearly what the

Government's position is on the

0:20:400:20:43

future direction of travel on the

transition period and future end

0:20:430:20:46

state so that instead of listening

to Cabinet ministers with diverging

0:20:460:20:50

views on this, we knew from the

Prime Minister what the Government's

0:20:500:20:54

policy was?

The policy remains what

she set out in detail in the

0:20:540:21:01

Lancaster house speech followed up

by the Florence speech where she

0:21:010:21:04

outlined the new end state we want

to end up with and the procedures

0:21:040:21:08

for getting there. She set it out in

great detail, that was very clear

0:21:080:21:14

but we need to have under --

negotiation at the end of the day.

0:21:140:21:23

These are difficult, complicated and

tricky areas but we remain focused

0:21:230:21:26

on the end state which is we will be

leaving the single market and the

0:21:260:21:31

customs union, having independent

trade policy and deciding our own

0:21:310:21:36

rules and regulations.

The EU

Withdrawal Bill will come to the

0:21:360:21:39

Lords this week to your house, are

we going to see government

0:21:390:21:46

compromise?

We will be listening to

the debate. We showed that we were

0:21:460:21:52

prepared to reflect and think about

contributions made, and if people

0:21:520:21:56

have suggestions that we agree with

that we will improve the legislation

0:21:560:22:00

and of course we will do that. The

House of Lords has a very important

0:22:000:22:04

role and we will carry that out

effectively and we will listen to

0:22:040:22:08

what the debate says.

So you are

open to government amendments

0:22:080:22:12

changing the EU Withdrawal Bill? On

issues like Henry VIII powers or

0:22:120:22:20

something like that?

We have already

compromised on those areas in the

0:22:200:22:24

House of Commons so we will listen

to what the debate brings. Peers

0:22:240:22:29

take their role of scrutinising EU

legislation closely and we will

0:22:290:22:33

reflect on that and introduce

changes if we think they are

0:22:330:22:37

warranted.

Thanks for talking to us

this morning.

0:22:370:22:41

And you can find more Brexit

analysis and explanation on the

0:22:410:22:44

BBC website.

0:22:440:22:45

This week Labour's

ruling body, the National

0:22:450:22:46

Executive Committee, or NEC,

stepped in to a bitter row

0:22:460:22:49

about a controversial housing

project in the London

0:22:490:22:51

borough of Haringey.

0:22:510:22:52

It's led to deep divisions

between the NEC and councillors

0:22:520:22:54

across the country, with the Labour

leader of Newcastle City Council

0:22:540:22:57

calling it a "declaration of war".

0:22:570:23:03

With Jeremy Corbyn supporters

consolidating their grip

0:23:030:23:05

on the ruling body of the party,

Emma Vardy's been looking

0:23:050:23:07

at the new battle lines being drawn.

0:23:070:23:12

You might not think to look at it

but this council estate in north

0:23:130:23:17

London is being seen as a battle

ground for the very soul of the

0:23:170:23:21

Labour Party. Labour run Haringey

plans to redevelop the estate in

0:23:210:23:27

partnership with a private company

but the pro-Corbyn pressure group

0:23:270:23:32

momentum has led a campaign opposing

it.

You do not gift people's houses

0:23:320:23:39

to a private developer and say you

can demolish these...

When Labour's

0:23:390:23:44

ruling body, the NEC, intervened

telling Haringey to force the

0:23:440:23:48

project, some Labour supporters were

outraged.

We have now got the

0:23:480:23:53

National executive committee

effectively telling a Labour council

0:23:530:23:56

what to do and I'm thinking where

does this end?

This, some believe,

0:23:560:24:03

is what they see as the hard left of

the party using the row as an excuse

0:24:030:24:08

to get rid of more moderate Labour

council is ahead of next year 's

0:24:080:24:12

elections. Around a third of the

Haringey Labour group of either been

0:24:120:24:16

deselected or they have stood down.

How is this being seen by other

0:24:160:24:22

Labour council is looking on?

There's 100 names on an open letter

0:24:220:24:26

to the NEC today saying stay out of

local council business, and one of

0:24:260:24:31

them, the Labour leader of Corby

Borough Council who can be found up

0:24:310:24:36

there, called it a disgrace.

I

signed the letter because I wanted

0:24:360:24:43

to demonstrate solidarity with a

colleague, also to send a message to

0:24:430:24:47

the NEC that we believe it is

inappropriate to intervene in the

0:24:470:24:51

way they did. Labour and local

government are the people governing

0:24:510:24:56

here in this country, we are not in

Government nationally, we are in

0:24:560:25:00

Government locally and we are doing

a good job locally. We are

0:25:000:25:06

protecting our people.

Do you think

the NEC will listen?

I would hope

0:25:060:25:10

so.

The intervention that led to

this row came for the first time

0:25:100:25:16

since Momentum leader was elected as

one of its members.

The NEC has

0:25:160:25:23

expressed a view, it has not

mandated, not stormed in and taken

0:25:230:25:27

over, and I think for every person

you can find who is upset I can find

0:25:270:25:32

tenants who are delighted.

Jeremy

Corbyn's support base on the NEC has

0:25:320:25:37

been strengthened after recent

elections so could this lead to

0:25:370:25:39

sweeping changes on party policy in

the future?

Where you can see

0:25:390:25:44

greater radicalism is on areas of

economic policy, following Carillion

0:25:440:25:49

Labour has been clear they want an

end to outsourcing completely if

0:25:490:25:53

they are elected, that they would

like to take contracts back

0:25:530:25:57

in-house, and at a local of all the

tensions exist as well.

What is the

0:25:570:26:02

risk with upsetting councils?

Is it

causes local divisions and they want

0:26:020:26:08

parties to be focused on governing.

It also threatens to cause tensions

0:26:080:26:14

between MPs. A lot of MPs see Labour

councillors as proud bastions of the

0:26:140:26:19

party and see them as a barrier to

those who they think are taking too

0:26:190:26:24

much of a faction or ideological

approach.

What would your message

0:26:240:26:30

beta Jeremy Corbyn?

That the Labour

Party are very fortunate to have a

0:26:300:26:34

large cohort of very experienced and

talented councillors up and down the

0:26:340:26:38

country. We know what we are doing,

a us to get on with that.

Local

0:26:380:26:44

councils aside, in Parliament Jeremy

Corbyn has won the

0:26:440:26:52

Corbyn has won the support of many

Labour MPs who now believe he should

0:26:520:26:55

lead them into the next election,

but could it be the relationship

0:26:550:26:57

with the wider party in local

government that becomes the one that

0:26:570:27:00

is more difficult to manage?

0:27:000:27:01

Emma Vardy reporting.

0:27:010:27:02

Jon Trickett is a member

of the Shadow Cabinet, and also sits

0:27:020:27:04

on Labour's National Executive

Committee.

0:27:040:27:06

He joins me now from Yorkshire.

0:27:060:27:12

We have got the leader of Newcastle

City Council, the Labour leader,

0:27:120:27:16

saying this is a declaration of war,

the NEC getting involved in the

0:27:160:27:21

local government decision.

The first

thing to say is Labour is in

0:27:210:27:28

Government throughout this country

in local councils, we are very proud

0:27:280:27:31

of our record in local government

but the NEC took a decision the

0:27:310:27:35

other day, it was unanimous by the

way, nobody voted against it, and

0:27:350:27:39

Nick was in the room. He made a

strong case for the autonomy of

0:27:390:27:43

councils and in general that is what

we think too. In fact we want to

0:27:430:27:47

bring more powers back to local

council...

You cannot reconcile

0:27:470:27:53

giving more power to councils with

the idea there is a top-down diktats

0:27:530:27:57

on what decisions councils must

take.

Let me just finish the point

0:27:570:28:02

because what the NEC did was to ask

for a pause. We did it politely but

0:28:020:28:08

we said before that should happen,

let's have a conversation between

0:28:080:28:12

Haringey and the NEC and that

conversation is now taking place or

0:28:120:28:17

Wilby. I think this is an

exaggerated row and when people look

0:28:170:28:21

at the facts, we have asked for a

pause is not necessarily a change in

0:28:210:28:26

policy, though we think the policy

was wrong and we want a conversation

0:28:260:28:33

with Haringey.

You are having a

conversation between the NEC and

0:28:330:28:38

Haringey. If Haringey Council

refused to change their minds about

0:28:380:28:41

this, they will then be subject to a

diktats from the NEC, will they not?

0:28:410:28:48

I'm not going to go into a

speculative conversation with you

0:28:480:28:51

but let's remember the background to

this. This is effectively a huge

0:28:510:28:58

deal outsourcing huge amounts of

resources and assets in Haringey. It

0:28:580:29:02

is very controversial and remember

this, the NEC received a letter from

0:29:020:29:09

22 Labour councillors on Haringey

Council asking for a pause. We

0:29:090:29:13

reacted to that request from within

Haringey itself and all of this

0:29:130:29:18

takes in the background of problems

at Grenfell and also with the

0:29:180:29:23

collapse of Carillion, both of which

I think our matters we need to be

0:29:230:29:27

thinking about when we are thinking

in local councils about outsourcing

0:29:270:29:31

additional provision. I am

optimistic we will find an amicable

0:29:310:29:34

way forward.

It gets to a

fundamental policy aspect of the

0:29:340:29:39

Labour Party as to who makes

decisions and surely you say some

0:29:390:29:43

Labour councils were concerned about

this, the majority of Labour members

0:29:430:29:52

on the council were in favour of it.

0:29:520:29:58

The ruling body of the Labour Party

is obliged by the Constitution to

0:29:590:30:01

take a view where there is clearly a

dispute within one of our

0:30:010:30:09

constitutional elements. And there

was an absolutely clear position

0:30:090:30:12

that there was a dispute. We were

asked to intervene. We took a view

0:30:120:30:18

and asked the council to think about

it again and agreed to mediation. I

0:30:180:30:22

don't think this is unreasonable.

The Constitution of the party

0:30:220:30:27

requires the NEC from time to time

to make sure that the constitutional

0:30:270:30:31

elements operate within the

policies, programmes and principles

0:30:310:30:34

of the Labour Party. I think it is a

storm in a teacup.

It is about the

0:30:340:30:41

controversial issue of outsourcing.

That is something you are speaking

0:30:410:30:45

out about this week, saying the

Labour government would reverse

0:30:450:30:50

outsourcing, setting out clear rules

for companies you would give

0:30:500:30:54

contracts to, including the idea

that the boss should not be paid

0:30:540:30:56

more than 20 times more than the

lowest paid worker. It would be

0:30:560:31:03

quite difficult to find construction

companies to build, say, HS2 if

0:31:030:31:09

you're going to stick to those

rules?

Well, there are all kinds of

0:31:090:31:14

different contracts which are

outsourced. Some of them can be done

0:31:140:31:18

by the public sector, others can't.

We will be thinking about those

0:31:180:31:23

services which are outsourced. The

facts are if you work for the

0:31:230:31:28

Council or the government, the top

ratio to the average pay is 20 to

0:31:280:31:32

one. In the private sector it is 156

to one. That means in a year's work

0:31:320:31:41

by a chief executive, the average

worker has to work 156 years, almost

0:31:410:31:45

for working like -- lifetimes. We

don't think that is how taxpayers

0:31:450:31:50

want the money spent.

When you say

you won't give government contracts

0:31:500:31:54

to companies who don't have this 20

to one pay ratio you are talking all

0:31:540:32:01

government contracts?

We have said

we want to move towards a ratio of

0:32:010:32:08

20 to one. I don't think people

watching will have any compunction

0:32:080:32:11

to say that is not unreasonable. If

you are a boss you should definitely

0:32:110:32:18

earn more than the average pay. But

156 times? I don't think that is

0:32:180:32:23

reasonable.

Depends how quickly you

would move towards this. If you got

0:32:230:32:30

into government and took over the

management of say HS2, and there are

0:32:300:32:36

£7 billion worth of contracts, most

are companies which don't fit your

0:32:360:32:40

criteria, would you be cancelling

those contracts are maintaining

0:32:400:32:44

contracts with companies that don't

fit your pay rules?

Contracts which

0:32:440:32:50

are already left, you cannot easily

break those contracts, nor should

0:32:500:32:54

you want to. It would be illegal. If

the contract was operating in a way

0:32:540:32:59

which was contrary to the contract,

clearly we would want to look at

0:32:590:33:03

bringing that back in-house. It is

horses for horses -- courses.

0:33:030:33:12

horses for horses -- courses.

So you

would continue with the contracts

0:33:130:33:15

the government signed for the

construction of HS2 even though

0:33:150:33:18

these companies don't meet your

criteria?

In the case of HS2,

0:33:180:33:23

remember, it went to Carillion, and

20 Carillion after government knew

0:33:230:33:28

they were in trouble.

There are ten

more companies involved in this.

But

0:33:280:33:36

Carillion are in trouble. The truth

is the government gave them billions

0:33:360:33:40

of pounds, I think it was £1.4

billion, to a company which was

0:33:400:33:44

clearly going belly up. It is

completely wrong.

0:33:440:33:47

Jon Trickett, thank you. I will talk

to the panel about what we have

0:33:470:33:55

heard on the programme so far. In

Trieste -- interesting ideas from

0:33:550:33:58

Jon Trickett. It would be harder to

impose their rules about outsourcing

0:33:580:34:05

and private companies, wouldn't it?

Not necessarily. The Carillion thing

0:34:050:34:13

as come at an interesting time. It

has exposed in bold the kind of

0:34:130:34:19

suspicion we have had for some time,

which is that these PFIs are really

0:34:190:34:24

just a vehicle for private companies

to take public funding and not

0:34:240:34:31

deliver on the services that they

were supposed to do. It ends up

0:34:310:34:35

costing us more. It is in line with

a shift in public mood we have seen.

0:34:350:34:42

There is overwhelming support for

nationalisation across sectors, from

0:34:420:34:45

utilities to railways and actually

across politics. Conservative voters

0:34:450:34:52

favour nationalisation. It is no

wonder that we have this level of

0:34:520:34:56

discontent when we see something

like Carillion happen. Yes, it might

0:34:560:35:03

be difficult in the short term to

return some of those contracts into

0:35:030:35:06

public hands. But it is going to be

cheaper and more efficient and

0:35:060:35:10

better for everyone in the long

term, that much is clear.

Camilla,

0:35:100:35:15

do you think it is even possible to

impose these kinds of rules, the 20

0:35:150:35:21

to one pay ratio, four any company

with a government contract?

No. And

0:35:210:35:26

as Andrew Gilligan's piece in the

Sunday Times showed, a lot of these

0:35:260:35:31

ideological premises have no basis

in law whatsoever. Momentum has

0:35:310:35:37

suggested to Capp pay at £60,000.

What effect would that have on head

0:35:370:35:41

teachers in Haringey? The people in

0:35:410:35:43

What effect would that have on head

Haringey did not vote for a

0:35:430:35:44

Momentum, they voted for Labour.

Haringey is a broad church. It takes

0:35:440:35:48

in top on one hand and Highgate on

0:35:480:35:49

Haringey is a broad church. It takes

the other. Our Momentum's policies

0:35:490:35:54

representative of the constituency

as a whole? No. It is deeply

0:35:540:35:58

worrying people are being deselected

by people with fanatical views. John

0:35:580:36:05

Landis man is hugely controversial

figure. He claims to be a Bastian of

0:36:050:36:10

socialism and socialist policies,

yet at the same time we have

0:36:100:36:16

discovered, and the Sunday Express

have had a lot of in-depth analysis

0:36:160:36:18

of his own finances, he recently

loaned £5,000 to his son's property

0:36:180:36:22

company, which in turn is charged

with franchising McDonald's outlets.

0:36:220:36:30

John Landsman is not here to defend

himself. Move on from that point.

0:36:300:36:38

Let me bring in Raphael first.

Haringey is emblematic of a wider

0:36:380:36:43

thing happening in the Labour Party.

You have got the NEC that met this

0:36:430:36:48

week, the first time since you had

more Momentum members elected.

0:36:480:36:52

Interesting to watch if it changes

the decisions they make. How

0:36:520:36:55

worrying will it be people to see

them getting involved in something

0:36:550:37:00

as local as the decisions in

Haringey?

Momentum is a complex

0:37:000:37:05

institution. It is not an

ideological phalanx or something

0:37:050:37:09

captured by the hard left. What is

very interesting about this is that

0:37:090:37:15

this is a tension within the left

and labour that predates Jeremy

0:37:150:37:18

Corbyn and Momentum. You have a

tension between people who would

0:37:180:37:25

start with a fixed idea of what it

means invincible to be on the left,

0:37:250:37:29

and people who take a slightly more

pragmatic view to get elected.

0:37:290:37:34

Broadly within the Labour Party at

the moment Jeremy Corbyn as won the

0:37:340:37:37

ideological argument. People have

been marginalised. The problem is

0:37:370:37:42

when you had the election last year

and labour did better than a lot of

0:37:420:37:46

people thought, including a lot

better than Jeremy Corbyn and John

0:37:460:37:49

McDonnell thought, something

switched and Labour thought, we can

0:37:490:37:53

do this, we can get into government.

Suddenly the pragmatic tendency

0:37:530:37:57

started to appear within the Corbyn

movement. The tension is not between

0:37:570:38:03

anti-Corbyn and pro Corbyn. It is

about how you sneak up power, not

0:38:030:38:08

alienate too many people. Can you

actually win, beat Theresa May and

0:38:080:38:12

get into government? That tension is

happening inside the head of Jeremy

0:38:120:38:16

Corbyn and John McDonnell. It is

happening inside the head of Jon

0:38:160:38:20

Trickett. We have to leave that now.

0:38:200:38:22

It's coming up to 11.40 -

you're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:38:220:38:24

Coming up on the programme,

the Leader of the Opposition

0:38:240:38:27

and the leader of the free world

have been giving their advice

0:38:270:38:29

to the Prime Minister

on how to conduct Brexit.

0:38:290:38:32

We'll be discussing all

that a little later on.

0:38:320:38:34

First though, the Sunday

Politics where you are.

0:38:340:38:40

Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics

in Northern Ireland.

0:38:400:38:43

In less than 24 hours

at the tail end of last week,

0:38:430:38:46

Northern Ireland suffered the slings

and arrows of

0:38:460:38:49

big business decisions.

0:38:490:38:50

It was good news for

jobs on the one hand

0:38:500:38:53

and potentially bad news

on the other.

0:38:530:38:54

I'll be talking to union

and manufacturing leaders

0:38:540:38:57

about those jobs, both lost

and saved, and asking if we should

0:38:570:39:01

be concerned about the security

of power supply here?

0:39:010:39:06

And joining me with their take

on the ups and downs of

0:39:060:39:09

the past week, we say welcome back

to Patricia Mac Bride and Alex Kane.

0:39:090:39:16

So, in the next few months almost

250 jobs are set to go

0:39:160:39:20

in East Antrim with the closure

of Kilroot Power Station,

0:39:200:39:24

but in East Belfast thousands

of workers in Bombardier

0:39:240:39:27

got the news that crippling

tariffs won't be imposed

0:39:270:39:29

on the planes they help to make.

0:39:290:39:31

The lifting of that huge threat

was widely welcomed,

0:39:310:39:35

but it also led to fiery political

exchanges on social media

0:39:350:39:37

on Friday night as to who should be

credited with the success.

0:39:370:39:41

Stephen Kelly, the chief executive

of Manufacturing NI,

0:39:410:39:44

is in our Foyle studio.

0:39:440:39:46

Davy Thompson of the Unite union

is with me in the studio.

0:39:460:39:49

I'll be speaking to them

in a moment, but first,

0:39:490:39:51

here's our business and economics

editor, John Campbell,

0:39:510:39:54

with a catch-up on the Bombardier

news which broke on Friday night.

0:39:540:40:02

The outcome of this case has come as

a huge shock to most observers, not

0:40:020:40:09

least the British and Canadian

governments who expected Bombardier

0:40:090:40:12

to lose, but in the event the

International Trade Commission ruled

0:40:120:40:19

in Bombardier's favour, finding that

by importing the C Series jets to

0:40:190:40:24

the US would not cause any damage to

Boeing's business. They will release

0:40:240:40:30

a detailed reasoning in the next

couple of months, and it's a

0:40:300:40:35

reminder that despite President

Trump's rhetoric of America first,

0:40:350:40:40

there are independent structures to

settle trade disputes and

0:40:400:40:44

non-American companies can get a

fair hearing.

0:40:440:40:46

John Campbell there.

0:40:460:40:48

Davy Thompson, this is clearly very

good news for Bombardier,

0:40:480:40:50

but what's your view of how this

decision was secured?

0:40:500:40:54

We believe we have led a campaign,

both local politicians and West

0:40:540:41:04

minister government, we have been to

the States and Capitol Hill, we have

0:41:040:41:09

been significant in what we have

done and while it is welcome news it

0:41:090:41:13

is tempered by the fact we have an

ongoing redundancy system at shorts

0:41:130:41:18

which will be realised in the next

couple of weeks. From tomorrow

0:41:180:41:23

morning our focus will be firmly on

securing those jobs but also

0:41:230:41:27

securing jobs we have heard in the

last fortnight have been lost across

0:41:270:41:32

the industry, we have Carillion,

Tesco, Sainsbury's, that is the real

0:41:320:41:38

debate to have.

You are pleased with

the ruled the unions have played but

0:41:380:41:45

do you see a benefit from a corner

that political approach? Did local

0:41:450:41:50

politicians play the part that some

of them were claiming on social

0:41:500:41:55

media, did the government played a

part?

We believe both parties, Sinn

0:41:550:42:01

Fein and the DUP did all they could,

we don't think they were assisted

0:42:010:42:07

ably and not by the British

government and people who believe

0:42:070:42:11

that two phone calls and to chat

over a cup of coffee between Prime

0:42:110:42:16

Minister and the president of

America was good enough, we don't

0:42:160:42:21

believe that.

There is a possibility

it could be appealed.

We said on

0:42:210:42:28

Friday night that we expect going to

accept the decision and the US

0:42:280:42:35

administration, it was a unanimous

decision and we believe that is what

0:42:350:42:38

they should do, respect the decision

and let's get on with making

0:42:380:42:43

aircraft and doing business around

the world.

Stephen Kelly, ice huge

0:42:430:42:48

sigh of relief as far as

Manufacturing NI is concerned?

These

0:42:480:42:54

are critical jobs to the economy,

not just in Belfast but our supply

0:42:540:42:59

chain which runs from the north-west

to North Down and these islands.

0:42:590:43:04

Bombardier is critical to the future

of the Northern Ireland economy so

0:43:040:43:10

to get such a positive result on

Friday came as a great boost.

What's

0:43:100:43:16

your assessment of who was

responsible for helping to save

0:43:160:43:18

those jobs?

They sate success has

many fathers and this is one of

0:43:180:43:26

those cases, everybody was working

hard and in a coordinated way. I

0:43:260:43:31

take the point that Davey has made

that the UK Government could have

0:43:310:43:36

done more, certainly the trade

unions and others were very

0:43:360:43:40

aggressive in terms of trying to

make sure this was seen as a massive

0:43:400:43:45

problem not just for Belfast but the

UK, and we needed to make sure that

0:43:450:43:50

was articulated to the American

authorities.

To complete that saying

0:43:500:43:56

of years, it is failure is an

orphan, success has many parents, so

0:43:560:44:01

some people were hedging their bets,

not sure how this one would go.

I

0:44:010:44:09

think the company, the UK

authorities and Canadian authorities

0:44:090:44:12

were all setting us up for failure,

they all thought we would get a bad

0:44:120:44:16

result but in the end we were all

delighted that the result was so

0:44:160:44:21

positive. The ITC isn't necessarily

influenced by politics, it has its

0:44:210:44:31

independence, to Democrats and two

Republicans, and to see such a

0:44:310:44:35

unanimous result shows that the

weight of the argument won through

0:44:350:44:39

and that has everyone's involvement.

David Thomson has already made that

0:44:390:44:45

point, it was a ruling 4-0 in favour

of Bombardier but there is a

0:44:450:44:52

possibility that could be appealed

and we know that Boeing is hoping to

0:44:520:44:58

review the detailed information when

it is published.

They are, so we

0:44:580:45:03

aren't allowed of the woods yet but

let's look at what Boeing has

0:45:030:45:07

achieved for themselves. They have

taken on a fight they shouldn't have

0:45:070:45:12

taken on, they have lost this

argument in the US, they have lost a

0:45:120:45:17

massive military deal in terms of

the Canadian government and damage

0:45:170:45:22

their reputation across the world,

so they should think long and hard

0:45:220:45:26

about whether to proceed without

appeal.

Davey Thompson, the C Series

0:45:260:45:33

has been bedevilled with

difficulties since it was first

0:45:330:45:35

mooted. Do you think that the deal

between Bombardier and are bus now

0:45:350:45:42

sets aside all those difficulties

and we can look forward to a much

0:45:420:45:47

smoother ride in future?

I don't

think it sets aside all the

0:45:470:45:52

difficulties. This C Series will be

an exceptional playing, by bringing

0:45:520:46:00

in are bus, it brings another

dimension. Airbus and Boeing work

0:46:000:46:10

competing against the C Series so it

opens up the markets. The decision

0:46:100:46:16

has probably put off potential

customers in the US for the last 18

0:46:160:46:21

months, we had one deal through in

terms of Delta, which is the one

0:46:210:46:25

that was complained about. These

decisions should be made before you

0:46:250:46:33

have a case, because it has put

people off from buying the aircraft

0:46:330:46:37

and put people back for a year.

Not

such good news for Kilroot Power

0:46:370:46:49

Station, 120 contract is look set to

lose their jobs.

It's devastating

0:46:490:46:57

and in the Antrim area, we had JGI

Gallaher and Michelin, we recently

0:46:570:47:03

lost Caterpillar, and other

threatened job losses and we can

0:47:030:47:11

rhyme of job loss after job loss.

Friday was good news but we now need

0:47:110:47:15

to focus on how we develop the

economy, and that needs to be

0:47:150:47:21

underpinned by a manufacturing

strategy, which incorporates every

0:47:210:47:26

facet of what we have. We need to

move forward with that quickly. We

0:47:260:47:32

are in talks now at Stormont, if we

don't underpinned those by real jobs

0:47:320:47:38

and economic stimulus, the building

will not stand. We have not put in

0:47:380:47:44

that stimuli to bring in real jobs

and future hope for young people and

0:47:440:47:48

that's where we sit today.

Stephen

Kelly, is it by definition

0:47:480:47:55

disastrous job losses for East

Antrim?

I've lost a job and I've had

0:47:550:48:02

to make people redundant, it's not a

pleasant experience, but this is a

0:48:020:48:08

story that isn't necessarily all bad

news, it certainly bad news for the

0:48:080:48:13

individuals involved but the

consumer has paid too much for

0:48:130:48:18

electricity, this takes £15 million

out of electricity markets. Davey

0:48:180:48:23

and I were at the gates of Michelin,

who had to close largely because

0:48:230:48:28

they were too expensive, so it is

important we sort these out for the

0:48:280:48:32

future. The decision to close

Kilroot isn't a position of the

0:48:320:48:39

market for regulators, it is purely

a decision for a yes. They can

0:48:390:48:46

participate in the marketplace

without that capacity agreement so

0:48:460:48:49

the future isn't necessarily

jeopardised, but it is a decision

0:48:490:48:57

for AES Management and I encourage

Davey and his colleagues to take

0:48:570:49:00

that up with the company.

Politicians have raised concerns

0:49:000:49:07

about security of supply. You say it

is good news because prices will

0:49:070:49:11

come down but the politician say if

we don't have security of supply, it

0:49:110:49:15

is not good news.

The market is

changing to more of our model like

0:49:150:49:23

across the water in GB. We used to

have a big pot of money that was

0:49:230:49:28

spread across all generators, now it

is slightly smaller and only spread

0:49:280:49:33

towards generators that are most

efficient and offer the most savings

0:49:330:49:39

for consumers. We have put a market

out there that was bid is requested,

0:49:390:49:44

those bids came in and they were

specifically requested for what is

0:49:440:49:51

called a single closed area in

Northern Ireland, so we have enough

0:49:510:49:56

power, those people employed,

experts in the area in terms of SONI

0:49:560:50:02

and the utility regular are

confident and we are assured by

0:50:020:50:05

that.

Are you reassured by what

Stephen Kelly has just said? Do you

0:50:050:50:14

have reservations about security of

supply?

We have absolute

0:50:140:50:17

reservations. Anybody who could

invest in Northern Ireland now we'll

0:50:170:50:24

be looking at whether we have

stability of government? We don't.

0:50:240:50:32

We have stood squarely and said

energy prices are too high, there is

0:50:320:50:37

no pressure on the manufacturing

sector and the infrastructure and

0:50:370:50:41

other stuff and we accept that, but

we have to look at how the system

0:50:410:50:46

was denationalised many years ago

and what that generated in profit.

0:50:460:50:52

You can only play the ball in front

of you, you cannot go back and play

0:50:520:50:57

a game that finished a long time

ago. What do you make of Stephen

0:50:570:51:02

Kelly saying that mission and closed

because of the cost of electricity

0:51:020:51:06

that now with this All-Ireland

supply, jobs could be created in

0:51:060:51:10

future?

We could create jobs, we did

stand outside Michelin, we have

0:51:100:51:18

worked closely on 95% of stuff that

we agree on but 270 people who

0:51:180:51:25

thought they had a lifetime

guaranteed of work, we know that

0:51:250:51:30

Kilroot was due to close anyway so

people were taking out mortgages

0:51:300:51:35

based on that and there is a moral

and social responsibility on AES who

0:51:350:51:42

are pulling out without their three

years notice and we will go into

0:51:420:51:48

talks with AES about retaining the

planned on their jobs but if that

0:51:480:51:52

isn't possible, they have a

responsibility to the people of

0:51:520:51:56

Northern Ireland to step up.

Is

manufacturing sound enough in

0:51:560:52:03

Northern Ireland to reassure those

270 people who will lose jobs in

0:52:030:52:08

Kilroot and maybe Ballylumford that

they will not be on the scrapheap

0:52:080:52:11

forever?

Absolutely, Davey

referenced the issue of future

0:52:110:52:17

investment. This new market is to

encourage future investment in the

0:52:170:52:24

energy sector, in a much more agile,

flexible and efficient producing

0:52:240:52:29

plant. What we had in the past, or

up until now, is big and bulky

0:52:290:52:36

generators that have to be used

because they are running and we are

0:52:360:52:40

all picking up the cost of that.

This money is coming purely from

0:52:400:52:45

consumers, and what we need to make

sure is that as the electricity

0:52:450:52:50

system changes, we give people the

best price. Our manufacturing sector

0:52:500:52:55

is growing, we have some difficult

news stories at the moment, some

0:52:550:53:00

great news on Friday and we hope

future good news can happen but we

0:53:000:53:05

need the Executive back to make sure

they have a plan in place for that

0:53:050:53:09

to happen.

Gentlemen, good to hear

your thoughts. Thank you.

0:53:090:53:14

Let's turn to my guests of the day,

Patricia MacBride and Alex Kane.

0:53:140:53:21

It's good news and attention they

not such good news. Let's talk about

0:53:210:53:27

Bombardier. Did you see that coming?

I don't think anyone saw it coming

0:53:270:53:34

but if you look at Spotlight the

other night and saw the weight of

0:53:340:53:37

what was presented by the British

government against what was

0:53:370:53:42

presented by the Canadian

government, you would hope they

0:53:420:53:45

would be a positive outcome from

that as well as work done by the

0:53:450:53:48

unions.

A lot of people claiming

credit for pulling it out of the

0:53:480:53:53

bag.

There is more security now for

people who work at Dunbar DA then on

0:53:530:54:01

Friday morning and that is the

positive thing to take out of it,

0:54:010:54:04

rather than who is credited, but

that contrast between that and what

0:54:040:54:10

is happening at Kilroot and

Ballylumford, we'd now potentially

0:54:100:54:14

see job loss. The big issue around

the electricity market is

0:54:140:54:21

maintaining security and consistency

of supply.

Are you satisfied about

0:54:210:54:25

that?

Right now I am, given that the

purpose of the regulator is to

0:54:250:54:33

insure that is there, we have a

system operator and a regulator and

0:54:330:54:38

the regulator said the happy that

the supply will be consistent and we

0:54:380:54:43

are saving £175 million per year in

terms of new deals that will be put

0:54:430:54:48

in place and we should all see the

benefit of that.

Good news and bad

0:54:480:54:54

news? It was good news for the DUP

because if Bombardier didn't have

0:54:540:55:01

come through, they would have Gavin

Robinson and Sammy Wilson in DUP

0:55:010:55:06

constituencies, being told this is

big catastrophic news for Northern

0:55:060:55:13

Ireland, but I was struck by what

Davies said that it was local

0:55:130:55:17

politicians who did all the lobbying

for the deal to make sure Bombardier

0:55:170:55:22

came back on board, but it shouldn't

be asked, at this moment it should

0:55:220:55:28

be either through direct rule or at

local executive, because there is no

0:55:280:55:36

manufacturing or economic strategy

and there are more job losses coming

0:55:360:55:39

down the line and these guys need to

be able to talk to someone because

0:55:390:55:43

at the moment they are all talking

to each other and that is quite so

0:55:430:55:49

many people claimed credit, because

until Friday no one was taking any

0:55:490:55:55

responsibility for it, they were all

clearing their own tracks and saying

0:55:550:56:00

it was there doing all the time.

That is bad government.

0:56:000:56:04

Thanks, both.

0:56:040:56:05

Let's pause for a moment and take

a look back at the week gone past

0:56:050:56:09

in 60 seconds with Stephen Walker.

0:56:090:56:10

The new look Sinn Fein leadership

team - in all but name -

0:56:100:56:14

arrived at Stormont

for the latest talks.

0:56:140:56:18

Michelle, smile.

0:56:180:56:20

Gregory Campbell discovered

there is a budget deadline.

0:56:200:56:25

I'm zoning in particularly on the

7th of February.

It will be

0:56:250:56:32

difficult for us if we don't have a

budget by the 8th of February.

0:56:320:56:37

The SDLP claimed the two big parties

made compromises last year.

0:56:370:56:42

We should publish the progress that

was made, published the compromises

0:56:420:56:46

and stop trying to pretend to the

public that nobody has compromised.

0:56:460:56:50

The Fianna Fail leader

Micheal Martin says his new position

0:56:500:56:53

on abortion was clear.

0:56:530:56:57

It is both pro-life and pro-choice

in respects.

Can you be both?

0:56:570:57:02

And making an impression -

Jan Ravens told us about getting

0:57:020:57:05

to grips with Arlene and Michelle.

0:57:050:57:07

Very much like that, Arlene has got

that kind of...

0:57:070:57:16

Stephen Walker on Jan

Ravens' work in progress.

0:57:160:57:18

Back to my guests for a final word.

0:57:180:57:25

I want to talk about abortion in a

moment, we heard Michael Martin

0:57:250:57:30

talking on Thursday, but in

Loughinisland, I challenge to the

0:57:300:57:36

Police Ombudsman's ruling on the

Loughinisland killings is to be

0:57:360:57:39

heard before a judge. Or you

surprised how that turned out?

I

0:57:390:57:46

don't think it was a surprise, once

it was in the public domain that

0:57:460:57:51

Justice McCloskey had represented

some applicants in that previous

0:57:510:57:56

review, he had to step aside.

He

said the legal test for him to set

0:57:560:58:02

aside have not been met.

But with

the potential for bias, the law must

0:58:020:58:09

be seen to apply evenly but this

means the families have to go back

0:58:090:58:14

to court and face another set of

hearings to get to the next stage in

0:58:140:58:19

uncovering the truth, that is not

the way to deal with the past, we

0:58:190:58:25

need a cohesive strategy that

addresses the needs of all victims

0:58:250:58:29

and we are failing in delivering

that.

Patricia is right, I wasn't

0:58:290:58:35

entirely persuaded by his argument

for not staying with the case

0:58:350:58:39

because I don't buy this notion that

anyone will not have unconscious

0:58:390:58:45

bias, these guys have been around

for 40 years and will have dealt

0:58:450:58:50

with all sorts of cases, but I think

most of them can set it aside and

0:58:500:58:54

move on but if you're talking about

helping not just these families at

0:58:540:59:00

all the other cases because each of

these issues has been dealt with

0:59:000:59:06

separately, bringing up emotional

cousins and we need some system

0:59:060:59:09

which puts it all together and says

let's deal with it as a whole

0:59:090:59:14

because it is a troubled society,

not just individual families.

And

0:59:140:59:21

Patricia speaks as Victims'

Commissioner so you have an

0:59:210:59:24

interest, and I also to talk about

abortion, and that very interesting

0:59:240:59:33

comment by Micheal Martin that you

can be pro-life and pro-choice at

0:59:330:59:39

the same time, carving out an

interesting space.

It is, and it

0:59:390:59:45

added by dynamic to the debate about

repealing the 8th Amendment and

0:59:450:59:50

hopefully added to the debate about

reproductive rights in the North.

0:59:500:59:55

This is about ensuring that people

who need a termination because of a

0:59:551:00:00

crisis pregnancy have the ability to

access abortion where necessary, so

1:00:001:00:06

for Micheal Martin to do that is

quite courageous.

For pragmatic?

I

1:00:061:00:14

think courageous because he has come

from a background perceived as being

1:00:141:00:19

pro-life for a long period and for

him to step out of that and say I

1:00:191:00:23

have to accept there are women who

will face crisis pregnancies and it

1:00:231:00:28

is up to meet to provide protection

under the law to deal with those in

1:00:281:00:32

the way they choose to.

Can you be

pro-life and pro-choice?

I'm not

1:00:321:00:39

sure you can be, because I have

spoken to people in the pro-life

1:00:391:00:44

body who say there are no

circumstances whatsoever that they

1:00:441:00:49

could justify an abortion. I don't

know how you could say I am pro-life

1:00:491:00:53

and pro-choice, maybe I suspect it's

more an electoral device, he is

1:00:531:01:02

trying to cover a number of bases.

That is the charge of his critics.

1:01:021:01:09

In the next few weeks people will

say, Micheal, how can you be both of

1:01:091:01:14

these?

The marriage equality

referendum answered that, you can

1:01:141:01:20

allow other people to access rights

you cannot access yourself.

But as

1:01:201:01:26

pro-life you say it is OK to take

life in some circumstances but I do

1:01:261:01:31

not see how you can be both. We will

hear more

1:01:311:01:36

McDonagh and Paul Scully.

1:01:361:01:37

And with that it's back to Sarah.

1:01:371:01:39

Welcome back. There have been plenty

of stories this week about Tory

1:01:451:01:50

Brexit angst. What about the Labour

Party? Reports suggest Jeremy Corbyn

1:01:501:01:54

is planning a big awayday to thrash

out Brexit policy.

1:01:541:02:00

Healy was on Andrew Marr this

morning.

The problem with the

1:02:001:02:08

undermining of workers' rights and

conditions has been a serious one.

1:02:081:02:10

What we are saying is there would be

enforcement of the agency agenda

1:02:101:02:16

that the EU has put forward,

preventing wholescale groups of

1:02:161:02:21

workers brought in to undercut and

undermined. There has to be a

1:02:211:02:23

regulated environment.

If you get

that, then you could have easy

1:02:231:02:28

movement?

We did. We have a

recruitment crisis in the NHS now,

1:02:281:02:36

particularly many nurses from Poland

and other countries who have

1:02:361:02:38

traditionally gone to work in this

country.

We are making progress. You

1:02:381:02:44

have agreed to ease of movement...

Our expert panel are still here to

1:02:441:02:50

talk about the Labour approach to

Brexit and some of the other issues.

1:02:501:02:54

That was Jeremy Corbyn being

questioned on the Labour approach to

1:02:541:02:58

free movement of people. When they

go on their big awayday this week,

1:02:581:03:03

will we get clarity on the

fundamental issues? Do Labour want

1:03:031:03:07

us to stay in the single market and

the Customs Union?

The key thing to

1:03:071:03:11

understand about the Labour position

on Brexit is there a competing

1:03:111:03:15

constituencies the Labour membership

as to pay attention to. You have a

1:03:151:03:20

liberal, younger, pro-remain people,

ardent supporters of Jeremy Corbyn

1:03:201:03:25

but also passionate against Brexit.

They see it as a Ukip culture war

1:03:251:03:30

thing they hate. You have a lot of

people living in constituencies who

1:03:301:03:33

have voted Labour who are a little

bit Ukip in some of their cultured

1:03:331:03:39

views of the project. They are

ardently pro-Brexit. You have an

1:03:391:03:45

ideological left faction,

represented in the Labour leader's

1:03:451:03:47

who think the EU is a capitalist

thing and we would be better off out

1:03:471:03:53

of it. It is technically hard for

the Labour leader to reconcile those

1:03:531:03:56

views. On the Customs Union and the

single market, the Labour problem is

1:03:561:04:01

the same as the government problem.

Anybody understands that the UK's

1:04:011:04:09

interests are served by being in

essentially the single market and

1:04:091:04:12

the Customs Union, but also it

happens to be a fact that the UK has

1:04:121:04:16

voted to leave the European Union.

If you stay on the Customs Union and

1:04:161:04:20

the single market, the Norwegian

model, a lot of people will feel

1:04:201:04:23

that is not enough Brexit. They

simply don't have answers to these

1:04:231:04:30

questions. They recognise what

economic reality is telling them to

1:04:301:04:33

do and they haven't found a way of

expressing that economic reality to

1:04:331:04:37

the 52% of people devoted to leave.

Then you enter up with the kind of

1:04:371:04:43

conversation Jeremy Corbyn was

having with Andrew Marr. The policy

1:04:431:04:47

becomes a little bit confused as to

whether they are in favour of free

1:04:471:04:50

movement, easy movement. Free

movement is not a phrase he wants to

1:04:501:04:54

use. He doesn't want to close the

barriers. It all looks a bit

1:04:541:04:58

confused?

Nobody has ever suggested

ending free movement means ending

1:04:581:05:02

immigration completely. One of the

main tranches of the Brexit argument

1:05:021:05:08

was to make it fairer for non-EU

immigrants to come to the country.

1:05:081:05:14

Currently working occupational

shortage lists are used to get

1:05:141:05:17

people to come in. If we need more

doctors, choreographers, dancers,

1:05:171:05:22

then we should put them at the top

of the tree and say, these are the

1:05:221:05:25

people who want to come in. Equally,

we need seasonal workers. There is

1:05:251:05:31

an itinerant against uncontrolled

immigration. That is what the EU

1:05:311:05:34

immigration system is perceived to

be. And controlled immigration. It

1:05:341:05:38

has inevitably led to complaints on

the Remain side of things that we

1:05:381:05:42

will suddenly have no doctors and

nurses. There was a row about that

1:05:421:05:46

recently. The latest ONS figures

suggest there has been a 5.4% rise

1:05:461:05:51

in EU doctors and nurses coming into

Britain. We will see. To be fair to

1:05:511:05:57

Jeremy Corbyn Knipe body gave a

pretty good account of himself today

1:05:571:05:59

and answered questions in a fairly

straight way. He did a better job of

1:05:591:06:06

explaining Labour's Brexit position

than Kier Starmer has been doing for

1:06:061:06:09

weeks.

It has been difficult for a

Labour spokespeople to outline the

1:06:091:06:16

policy on Brexit. There doesn't

appear to be a clear policy. Do you

1:06:161:06:21

think they are moving to a position

where they will have a much more

1:06:211:06:24

defined approach to what they want?

First of all, I think Rafael's

1:06:241:06:33

description was a bit of a

mischaracterisation. The Labour

1:06:331:06:35

position now is we're Remainers that

accept a democratic vote has taken

1:06:351:06:43

place and we need to exit the EU

because that was the result. We need

1:06:431:06:46

to do that in a way that keeps

business and jobs and the economy

1:06:461:06:50

vibrant. In a way that the

Conservatives showed no particular

1:06:501:06:55

sign of caring about. It is not that

they think the EU is a dastardly

1:06:551:07:00

project, it is more like, this is

what people voted for, how do we do

1:07:001:07:04

it? There is no point in the Labour

Party at running the government on

1:07:041:07:12

Brexit. There is no point in the

Labour Party saying, this is exactly

1:07:121:07:17

what we would do, when the

government is the one in the driving

1:07:171:07:19

seat. They are controlling the

negotiations, they get to decide

1:07:191:07:23

what is going on. What Labour can do

in this reality is challenge the

1:07:231:07:28

government when they think they are

wrong, as they have done in fact

1:07:281:07:31

since the negotiations began. We

have got a transition period. We

1:07:311:07:37

have got various things. We have got

a parliamentary vote at the end of

1:07:371:07:41

Brexit. That is because of Labour

putting pressure on government. You

1:07:411:07:48

can take credit. You can put it

where you want to. We're having a

1:07:481:07:56

discussion about what the Labour

Party position on Brexit is. I am

1:07:561:08:00

saying, where is the wisdom of

Labour overrunning the government,

1:08:001:08:03

which is controlling negotiations?

The other thing that is important to

1:08:031:08:08

says the party position is very

responsive and it is changing. As I

1:08:081:08:14

understand that they are very

responsive to all the polling on

1:08:141:08:17

positions around a referendum.

How

unusual for the Labour Party to

1:08:171:08:24

respond to public opinion.

But

that's just democratic, isn't it,

1:08:241:08:29

Rafael? They are responsive to the

conversations they are having with

1:08:291:08:36

their EU sister parties in Europe.

They are listening to all these

1:08:361:08:41

things. And calibrating as things go

on.

Donald Trump had some advice as

1:08:411:08:46

to how we should approach the EU

negotiations. Aimed at the Prime

1:08:461:08:52

Minister not Jeremy Corbyn. This is

how he said he would approach

1:08:521:08:54

negotiations.

Would it be the way I would

1:08:541:08:58

negotiate? No. I have a lot of

respect for your Prime Minister. I

1:08:581:09:05

think they are doing a job. I think

I would've negotiated it

1:09:051:09:08

differently. I would have had a

different attitude.

What would you

1:09:081:09:12

have done?

I would have said the

European Union is not cracked up to

1:09:121:09:18

what it is supposed to be and I

would have taken a tougher stand in

1:09:181:09:21

getting out.

A few in the

Conservative Party would probably

1:09:211:09:25

agree with Donald Trump. Is that

helpful to the Prime Minister?

1:09:251:09:30

Coming after what was a helpful week

from Donald Trump in terms of

1:09:301:09:33

relations with the Prime Minister,

his love of Britain and his promise

1:09:331:09:36

of tremendous trade in Davos,

perhaps it is a bit of a slide.

1:09:361:09:41

Actually this morning we heard Piers

Morgan described Donald Trump, his

1:09:411:09:44

close friend, as a ball china shop.

That would be his approach to

1:09:441:09:50

negotiations. Perhaps David Cameron

should have taken more a bit Donald

1:09:501:09:54

Trump approach when he tried to

reform the EU from the inside, which

1:09:541:09:58

in the end his failure to do so led

to the referendum we are now

1:09:581:10:02

debating.

There are lots in the

Conservative Party, lots of

1:10:021:10:05

backbench Brexiteers, who think that

is what has gone wrong, that the

1:10:051:10:09

government has made too many

concessions to the EU, hasn't been

1:10:091:10:12

hard enough in the divorce period.

Yes, a lot of those people are not

1:10:121:10:20

in government and have not got a

practical -- practical reality of

1:10:201:10:25

what is required to take the UK out

of European Union. Everything Donald

1:10:251:10:28

Trump is said about international

policy, particularly with regard to

1:10:281:10:32

Europe and the European Union,

demonstrated as not have a great

1:10:321:10:34

understanding of what the EU is as a

project or an institution. If I was

1:10:341:10:39

a Tory Brexiteer I would be a bit

concerned about Donald Trump been

1:10:391:10:42

very enthusiastic about the project,

because for a lot of liberal minded,

1:10:421:10:47

moderate people in the broad

mainstream of public life and

1:10:471:10:50

politics, Donald Trump is absolutely

toxic. The idea that Brexit is a

1:10:501:10:54

sibling project -- project is

damaging. Theresa May will want to

1:10:541:11:01

make it distinct from what Donald

Trump is doing.

One other

1:11:011:11:05

intervention today is Grant Schapps

has been out in the papers. He has

1:11:051:11:09

said it is becoming increasingly

clear we cannot continue to muddle

1:11:091:11:12

along like this. Mrs May should name

a date. By that he means a date by

1:11:121:11:19

which she will exit Number 10 and

stopping Prime Minister. He wants a

1:11:191:11:22

timetable. He says if that doesn't

happen there may be a revolt.

1:11:221:11:25

Rachel, it is not what she needs, is

it?

Is not what she needs. It is

1:11:251:11:31

maybe what the country needs. She

has been put on notice. She has been

1:11:311:11:35

told of things don't improve by May,

which is when there are local

1:11:351:11:40

elections, including in major

cities, if the Conservative Party do

1:11:401:11:43

as badly in those as they are

expected to, and predicted two, then

1:11:431:11:48

there may be more moves to get rid

of her. It is not surprising, is it?

1:11:481:11:55

The situation is completely

untenable. We can't model along like

1:11:551:12:00

this, having a Prime Minister or

can't lead.

Graham Bailey, the chair

1:12:001:12:06

of the 19 -- 1922 committee, said he

keeps getting letters from backbench

1:12:061:12:13

MPs who want to trigger a leadership

contest -- contest. They say it is

1:12:131:12:19

getting nearly 40 mark. That sounds

like they are warning MPs, please

1:12:191:12:23

don't send in any more letters

because you may trigger a leadership

1:12:231:12:26

contest. Is that a real threat?

I

think the notion of Graham Brady

1:12:261:12:30

being ashen faced is probably quite

true. There are a lot of stories

1:12:301:12:36

today saying that eight of the new

intake are prepared to give letters

1:12:361:12:39

in. Some of the old schools.

Problems among Remainers and

1:12:391:12:45

Brexiteers. After recent may need to

do is take hold of the situation. --

1:12:451:12:51

what to May needs to do is take hold

of the situation. She needs a third

1:12:511:12:57

keynote speech on Brexit to take

control, to silence the critics.

1:12:571:13:01

Boris Johnson is due to give his own

landmark speech on a so-called

1:13:011:13:06

liberal Brexit, which I'm sure

Rachel will be looking forward to

1:13:061:13:09

hearing. Perhaps Theresa May should

seize the moment, take control and

1:13:091:13:13

put her own new stamp, so people are

not just mentioning Lancaster House

1:13:131:13:18

and Florence but a Newsbeat.

A big

danger for Theresa May is not

1:13:181:13:23

Brexit. There are a lot of Tory MPs

who think Brexit is taking care of

1:13:231:13:28

itself.

They are worried about the NHS. We

1:13:281:13:29

have to leave it there.

1:13:291:13:31

That's all for today.

1:13:311:13:32

Join me again next Sunday

at 11am here on BBC One.

1:13:321:13:34

Until then, bye bye.

1:13:341:13:41

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