29/09/2013 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

do with the lack of talent, it is Sunday Politics. David Cameron

rushes out a scheme to help house-buyers with deposits. Is he

merely stoking a new house price bubble? As Tory activist 's gather

merely stoking a new house price in Manchester, we will have the

results of our exclusive survey of Conservative councillors. I will be

speaking to Foreign Secretary William Hague. And Ed Miliband made

headlines with his pledge to freeze energy prices for 20 months after

headlines with his pledge to freeze the next election. But does the new

And coming up here - a drama, a Energy

And coming up here - a drama, a crisis or a little local difficulty?

We hear live from the Secretary of State. And could some Northerners

get a vote for the next President of Ireland?

Underground should be made illegal, something the Prime Minister doesn't

rule out. With me are a trio of top political

commentators. All three will be tweeting their thoughts, or in some

cases just their thought through the show, using the hashtag #bbcsp. The

Conservative Party conference gets under way in Manchester this

afternoon. We have already been bombarded with a series of policy

announcements, a tax break for married couples of up to £200 per

year, more money on life extending cancer treatments and, last night,

the news that the second stage of the Chancellor's Help To Buy scheme

will start next week. That is brought forward from the start of

next year. David Cameron says it is all about helping hard-working

people. Right now, you can't get, it's very difficult to get, a 90% or

95% mortgage. That means a typical family with two people earning

20,000, 25,000, they are being asked, to buy an average house, they

20,000, 25,000, they are being are being asked to find a £40,000

deposit. They can afford the mortgage payment, but they can't get

the mortgage. They can't buy their flat or house. As Prime Minister,

I'm not going to stand back while people's aspirations to get on the

housing ladder, to own their own flat or home, is being trashed. That

is why we need to act. A predictable attempt by party leadership to

kick-start the conference with eye-catching policies. The polls

show a big bounce for Ed Miliband and the Labour Party, with decent

numbers for UKIP. What do party activists think about David

Cameron's leadership and the challenge posed by UKIP? Adam

Fleming has been meeting Tory councillors as they travel to their

party conference. For the Conservatives this weekend,

all roads and trams lead to Manchester for their party

conference, and as a scene setter we asked ComRes to survey councillors

are Finland and Wales. Councillors asked ComRes to survey councillors

like Tom, packing for conference at home in Wellingborough. Immigration

is an issue for him. He thinks there are pros and cons. But we found that

54% of his colleagues feel immigration has had a negative

impact on the UK. I think it reflects into this wider issue of

our relationship with Europe. People are very concerned about the

possible influx of ovarian and Romania emigrants. Obviously the

issue of Europe is very big. -- Ukrainian. His colleagues in Corby

are worried about the rise of the UK Independence Party. In our survey,

nearly a quarter of Conservative councillors thought that their party

should make a pact with UKIP. The concern is, yes, will they take

votes away from ourselves in 2015? If that happens, maybe we don't get

back in. Maybe a partnership is the way to go. It depends what they want

and we want. But we should be talking about them. A pact? Depends

what they say, anything is possible. What would you like to see? Ideally,

from my point of view, a national pact. David Cameron arrived in

Manchester last night. Around the same time as these activists from

London. I broke the news to them that in our survey just 26% of Tory

councillors think that the prime ministers in touch with the lives of

ordinary people. The same at all Conservatives, you don't judge

people by their background. It's not where they come from, it is where

they are going to. It is not a where they come from, it is where

problem that he is a bit on the posh side? Cull you might describe him

like that, I would not use those words. Explain your T-shirt, it is a

phrase that a senior Cameron person is alleged to have used about you?

It is a humorous way of letting the party now that we are here to say

what we think. Members are important. We are not going away any

time soon. A sentiment you will hear a lot at this conference, because

just 22% of councillors in our survey said that David Cameron was

any good at listening to the people that work hard for his party. That

was Adam. Joining me now from the Conservative Party conference in

Manchester, Foreign Secretary William Hague. Welcome to the Sunday

Politics. Good morning. Over one in five Tory councillors in our survey

support a pact with UKIP at the next election. Why do you think that is?

If it is one in five, it means a large majority did not want a pact

with UKIP at the next election. They have noticed that UKIP, in local

elections, has been receiving votes, some of which would otherwise have

been for the Conservatives. I think we have to make sure that people

understand that at a general election they are choosing between a

Conservative and Labour Government, as David Cameron as Prime Minister

or Ed Miliband. If people want to get a referendum on Europe, the only

way to do that is to have David Cameron as Prime Minister. I think a

general election is different from the local government perspective. It

is pretty unusual, some might say unprecedented, for a large chunk of

one of the big parties in this country to want to go into coalition

one of the big parties in this with a smaller party before an

election. When has that ever happened? Looking at your survey,

three times as many didn't want to do that. As ever, with a survey,

with statistics, you can highlight it whichever way around you want to.

The point is, we are not having pacts with other parties, electoral

pacts with other parties. You rule it out? That is not going to happen.

What we do want is to have a pact it out? That is not going to happen.

with the voters, if you like, as we have often done in the Conservative

Party. We have won over the voters of other parties to support our

policies and Prime Minister. That is important with those people that say

they want to vote for UKIP. By default, they would produce a Labour

government in the exact opposite of many of the things they intend, if

they would otherwise vote Conservative and decide to vote for

UKIP instead in a general election. That could help to produce a Labour

government. The chairman of the 1922 committee, the elected voice of

Conservative backbenchers, he says your party should spell out what had

once back from the European Union before next year's European actions.

Do you agree? We will be spelling out some things in the European

elections. I will be talking about this later on today. For instance,

about the need the UK and the European treaties the concept of

ever closer union, a concept that in Britain we have never really

believed in. We would like that to be changed, with all of the

consequences that would flow from that. We will be setting out the

examples and principles of the changes we want to say. Certainly

over the next year, not only before the European actions but the general

election, if you are saying, let have the exact list of anything that

we are going to be able to negotiate, that is difficult because

there will be a negotiation of a new deal in Europe if David Cameron as

Prime Minister after the next election. To some extent, that has

to be negotiated. Only 11% of your own councillors feel that people in

their area think that George Osborne is in touch with ordinary people.

Why is he seemed to be so aloof? It is not for me to explain why people

say what they say in surveys. The important thing is what we are

delivering for the country. What George Osborne is delivering his

renewed economic growth. 1.4 million new jobs in the private sector, help

for hard-working people, by reducing the tax for 25 million of them. The

Help To Buy scheme that we are highlighting today. That is what

really matters to people, actually, I think you will find. Let's talk

about helping ordinary people. Ed Miliband is guilty freeze energy

prices. What are you going to do about energy prices, we already

asked energy companies to put people on their lowest tariffs. This has

not been amended. -- implemented. Why not? This is going to happen

within this government. It is going to happen within this government

when the... Why hasn't it happened now? People are suffering now from

rising energy prices. It has not happened because my colleagues have

been implimenting it. In the case of Ed Miliband's policy, if you are

asking why it has not yet happened under this Government, it didn't

even survive a few our's scrutiny in opposition. In a few hours he had to

concede that if there was a big change in oil prices then the policy

would not work. The trouble is, it would dry up some of the investment

in the energy industry. I don't think it is a credible promise. For

a party that presided over council tax bills doubling in the next

government, -- last government, it's not very credible. Why is George

Osborne going against the European Union to protect banker bonuses?

Well, we don't want to see the European treaties used in a way that

they should not be used. It's not necessarily over this particular

issue. It is over the power that the European Union has over our lives

and over this country. Can the bankers look after themselves? We

should be able to decide those things in our own country. We have

never signed up to such matters in European institutions. If you allow

one thing that wasn't meant to be decided to be decided, you find

one thing that wasn't meant to be there are another ten or 20 things

that affect many other people. We are very vigilant about what we call

competence creep, with the European Union taking more powers than it was

meant to have. That is one of the reasons why people do want a

referendum, do want a new deal in Europe. That is what we intend to

give them. Let's look at in competence creep. A big city

institution, ICAP, fined for fixing the LIBOR rates. The founder of that

company has donated £5 million to your party. Shouldn't you give it

back? Aren't you ashamed to accept that money? He has donated his own

money to the Conservative Party. Which he made out of ICAP. As people

have to other parties, people are free to do that and they should be

free to do that. I am not aware of any plan for that to be repaid.

Because you can't afford to. Let's recap this. We have seen Tory MPs

parrot propaganda lines from the energy companies this week. We have

the Chancellor going to court to fight for unlimited banker bonuses.

We have a top Tory donor the centre fight for unlimited banker bonuses.

of yet another city scandal. Ed Miliband is right when he says you

lot are on the side of the vested interests so the rich and powerful,

isn't he? Well, again, look at the record. I just did! 1.4 million

extra jobs in the private sector, 25 million people with a tax cut, a

Help To Buy scheme which is going to help so many people, particularly

young people have the house that they need and deserve for the

future. Council tax bills held down, welfare reform so that it pays to

work. Actually, this is a government achieving things for hard-working

people and that will be highlighted to this conference.

While President Laugharne he's talking about peace, the Iranians

are speeding up their nuclear weapons programme. -- is talking.

It would be hard to say from week to week whether it is speeding up

or slowing down but they are continuing with it. That is why we

say the new message - the new words - from Iranian leadership are very

welcome. I said that to the Foreign Minister in New York over the last

few days but it is the actions that will count. At the moment, the

nuclear programme continues. We have agreed to commence

negotiations on that and that will be a very important test as to

whether actions will match the words. When will we know it if we

are being strung along? He has strung as a long in the past as a

nuclear weapons negotiator. When will we know if he is not just

doing that again? Over the next few weeks, it will be a very important

time. He has said there should be more transparency over the Iranian

nuclear programme. It is not transparent in many regards at the

moment. The atomic agency is asking for information that is not being

given. One test is, in the coming weeks, will they give more

information? The information that the international of authority is

asking for about their nuclear programme. We will be able to form

a view of this in the coming weeks or months. It is important we test

their new willingness to talk to us and negotiate with us. It is

important to find out whether they are serious about it. You are

asking, is the nuclear programme really continuing? Are they really

going to be realistic about negotiations and offer something

they have not offer before? Speaking of being strung along,

what sanctions would President Assad face if, in six months - the

Year, Syria still has a chemical weapons arsenal. In the resolution

we voted through the UN Security Council on Friday night, is the

commitment that the Security Council will take measures under

Chapter seven of the UN Charter in the event of non-compliance. Does

that allow full force? I did not catch that. Does that allow for

force? It is similar to the Security Council resolution about

Iraq, which most people concluded in not allow full force. It does

not specify that. It talks about terms seven of the charter. That is

a message of the whole UN Security Council that there will be measures

- there will be consequences - if the Assad regime does not comply.

Russia has a lot riding on this. It has a big commitment. I have spent

a lot of time at my Russian counterpart over the last week.

Russia has said, this is something you will have to do. We will work

with Russia and others very closely to check there is compliance will

this resolution. Given the progress that has been made, you must be

very glad that the British House of Commons stopped your rash to force

against Syria. -- rush. The reason has happened is because there was a

credible threat of military action. President Obama did not get it

through Congress. They have not had the vote in Congress. There is no

other explanation as to why the policy changed. It was because

there was a debate about military action in the West that the policy

changed on theirs. That is why it changed. We were not in a rush for

military action. The boat put to the House of Commons was to have

another Aotearoa after the inspectors reported. It was before

we got to that point that the Russian and Syrian policy changed.

We need to make sure that works in practice. Thank you. What do you

make about this rushing forward with the help to buy scheme which

was meant to start next year - coming forward mad to the next

couple of weeks? I think it is a terrible policy. The Treasury

Select Committee, Perez a fundamental problem with the

Government having an interest in mortgage lending. -- there is a

fundamental problem. It should have been set much lower to exclude

London and the South East where houses are dramatically overvalued.

Many economists think freezing energy prices is a terrible policy.

These policies can be popular. If you have no chance of getting a

deposit, the Government will make that possible because it will

guarantee a big chunk of the deposit. Do not forget George

Osborne tried every single lever. It looked like he could not do

anything to get the economy moving. It is moving. They have pulled it

forward and there are signs it is recovering. The reason why they are

doing this is they want to show this week at the conference there

are real sort of understandable issues you can explain very simply

that really up going to improve people's lives. The Conservatives

were slightly spooked by Ed Miliband's speech last week. The

language used by David Cameron this morning was that the tax policy was

nuts. Much more cautious and -- language about the energy price

freeze. They are nervous that Ed Miliband may be touching a nerve on

that one. What we will get this week, I suggest, his Tory populism

to counter Miliband populism. I think we will see that and it will

be a mistake. As long as it is think we will see that and it will

about The Picture, they are on relatively strong ground. When the

political conversation changes to more fiddly things, particularities

of energy prices or living standards, things that are some way

below that picture, I do not think they can win a bidding war with the

Labour Party. It is about borrowing against a party that stands for the

rectitude at against a party that stands for the

It is about getting the conversation back to where

It is about getting the before the Labour conference, which

is unemployment, GDP growth and the warming economic picture. That does

not pay energy bills. Does not sound that the Tories have anything

not pay energy bills. Does not to counter the price freeze. -- it

does not sound. They have had a week to think about a great attack

line and they do not add anything. They have just said, the lights

will go out. Now they're saying, it will not

the credibility test. Ed Miliband said, if there were a big spike in

energy prices, he would not be able to keep his freeze in those

circumstances. it is about credibility. Being seen

as serious and grown-up is worth it is about credibility. Being seen

more than any burst of popularity. My worry about the announcement is

more than any burst of popularity. with the election campaign, it

begins to lose credibility, begins to seem a banana republic. It looks

a lot less wise than it did last week. I disagree. Every time energy

bills go up and they will continue to go up, it will be a reminder of

how much people are being hit in the pockets. People know by energy

prices are going up. There is a structural change in the world that

was not there before - China and India. These energy companies may

be making huge profit but, at the end of the day, what is driving up

the cost of fuel is China and India. Ed Miliband, great man that he is,

I am not sure he can take on the people Sammir on that one. How dare

you! -- the People's Army. Ed Miliband came out fighting at

Labour's Conference in Brighton last week. Dogged by criticism over

the summer of his leadership style and lack of policies, Mr Miliband

tried to demonstrate his strength of character with a series of bold

announcements, and attempted to position himself on the side of

ordinary Brits. The Labour leader told party members he would stand

up to the strong and take on the vested interests that hold back our

up to the strong and take on the economy. In a speech in which he

jokingly referred to himself as an action hero, Mr Miliband promised

to switch the forthcoming business action hero, Mr Miliband promised

tax cut from large firms to smaller businesses. He said he would force

big firms to train at an apprentice every time they bring in a worker

from outside the EU. He hinted that increasing the minimum wage would

be increased. He bowed to take on developers with a use it or lose it

threat to landowners and pledged to build 200,000 homes each year by

2020. He promised to freeze energy prices and reset the energy market.

The next Labour government will freeze gas and electricity prices

until the start of 2017. That provoked a rash of headlines -

hailing the return of red Ed macro. It has also given him a spike in

the polls. And Labour's Shadow Energy Secretary Caroline Flint

joins me now for the Sunday Interview.

Ed Miliband says, our energy market is broken and does not work. In

what way is that market to date different from the one Labour left

behind in 2010? We have six companies that dominate the energy

sector. It is the same. They generate energy, and sell it on to

us. What we recognise and Ed Miliband recognised when he was

Secretary of State and asked for more information from the company

Secretary of State and asked for is on hold serve costs and profits,

all the things we have done to mitigate against that in terms of a

warm front programme and everything else has not dealt with the

fundamental problem that the Horsell market is too secretive and

it is too much about such supply. - - the wholesale market. We have

been raising with the Government in a co-operative way the argument for

resetting the market. It has got worse in terms of speed at which

prices have gone up. Labour put wholesale and retail together. It

was the start this dates back to Margaret Thatcher and the

privatisation. We took some reforms to reset the market. We have

realised it was not working and it was broken and we need to reset it.

Ed Miliband will be the first to say we did not do enough from 2005

onwards. Let's have a look at what happened to energy prices under the

Labour government. Electricity up 67%, gas up 139%. Overall prices up

by 48%. The market was broken and the Government as well. From 2005,

we saw prices biking as wholesale prices went up. The tick action on

the one Front programme, decent homes for social housing. -- we

took action on per warm front programme. Trying to do things

around social obligations needs to be looked at. Gas and electricity

bills are high partially as a consequence of the market you

presided over but as a consequence of Labour policy. Beds have a look

at the breakdown of dual fuel - gas and electricity bill. -- let's have

a look. The supply costs of getting it to us and so on. The policies

that were introduced by your government - Green levies - are

adding almost 10% to has told energy bills. £112 on average bill

of 1188. You have put the bill up. Eight -- social and green

obligations amount to £112. That helps the poorest insulate homes.

Overwhelmingly, looking at your graph and the figures I have,

wholesale costs are worth more than half. What we have seen, based on

figures we now have, in Eni macro, a wholesale costs fell by 39% and

that was not reflected in our bills. Do you have plans to do anything

about the £112? If you took that off, you could cut bills by 10%

tomorrow. Or if you were in power. It is important that restimulate

the opportunity to grow clean energy. It -- we stimulate. If we

do not have clean energy, we will be beholden for ever-more to fossil

do not have clean energy, we will fuels that are depleting. It will

create jobs and bring in investment will start in the last few years,

we have seen investment in renewable energy half. -- in

investment. If I could go back to competition in the markets,

whatever advance there are, looking at whether the money raised through

energy companies to deliver energy efficiency, is that doing as well

as it might? Could it be better delivered by another agency? They

are fair questions. We need to get ahead of that and look at the

market. Can we make the market will competitive make sure when there is

downward pressure on wholesale prices, that is reflected on our

bills? That is the bigger picture argument. Also the freeze to help

people during that period. As you complain about the energy

prices, it was as a result of your actions. Ed Miliband introduced the

climate change act. He admitted prices would have to rise to pay for

decarbonisation. He said, we are going to minimise the costs as much

as possible, but it is true there is not a low-cost energy future out

there. It is important that we address the pressures on bills, but

also recognise that if we are going to build a better future where we

can have more home-grown British energy and, in the long-term,

cheaper, we need to invest in renewables. Truth is it is about the

market. I acknowledge I acknowledge eyes what you say about the 112. I

am not going to disagree. But wholesale prices have fallen. They

fell in 2009, we got a reduction in bills of 5%. Which are saying that

the big companies are overcharging customers. We are seeing profits

going up, but we haven't seen the amount of investment suggested by

those profits coming through. But that £125 is going to get worse,

because your leader said in his speech in Brighton that Labour will

have a world leading commitment in Government to take out all carbon

from energy generation by 2030. That is not that far away. By 2030, no

more coal generation, no more gas generation, only much more expensive

nuclear and much more expensive renewables. It cannot be done

without bills going up even further? Hang on a second. The 2030 target to

remove carbon from the electricity supply, we have said we should set a

target now because, actually, it gives us more time to plan ahead and

also allows investment to come in. There is plenty of people with cash

in their pockets not want to invest what they are stalling because of

the Government's hesitancy over this. I just want a clarification

here. My understanding is that your commitment is to get rid of all

carbon from power generation by 2030? From the letters city supply.

Only electricity. We will still have gas? We have always said we will

need gas for decades to come. So we are clear for that. But you will be

increasingly dependent on expensive nuclear. EDF are currently demanding

twice the market price to build plans in this country. Renewables

are two or three times the market price. Bills are going up under your

policies, and the coalition policies? On nuclear, we took a

decision under the Labour Government that we needed to revitalise the

sector, to hit targets on clean that we needed to revitalise the

energy and make sure it can do the heavy lifting. The Government at the

present time are engaged in heavy lifting. The Government at the

discussions with EDF about what the strike price should be. It's

important, because I don't know what it's going to be, it is important

that stands up to scrutiny in terms of value for money. At the same

time, I go back to market reforms. We will not just have a target for

difference, the jargon for nuclear, we will have it for renewables as

well. That is even more important, that we have a transparent market so

that we can have a robust target price to be judged against. Michael

Gove recognised in question time that the market was not working. The

Telegraph said in its editorial, they used the term cosy cartel. We

have former advisers to David Cameron saying something needs to be

done. I'm surprised David Cameron doesn't acknowledge that. You are

going to freeze prices for 20 months and will come up with a new

regulator to replace Ofgem. Will that regulator have the power to

regulator to replace Ofgem. Will control prices? The new energy

watchdog will have a strategy responsibility to monitor the

wholesale costs and prices, which it currently doesn't have at the

moment. As a result of that it will currently doesn't have at the

have the power that, if the wholesale prices fall, it can force

the energy companies, if they don't, wholesale prices fall, it can force

to pass on reductions in bills to consumers. It will not have what we

see in some parts of the European Union, 15 of them, that have a

variety of price controls that set things at below inflation and what

have you. France, Spain, Italy. It will not do that. Why? Because we

are looking at a temporary price freeze to reflect a reduction in

are looking at a temporary price wholesale prices, to give the

British public respite from ever climbing bills while they get

reforms into the market. At the end of this, what we want is a more

competitive market that can be trusted, that is more transparent.

We do believe it is right that, actually, we need a regulator that

has much more of a role in making sure the market is managed

effectively. Are you accusing energy companies of profiteering? EU I am

accusing them of overcharging and not passing on wholesale reduction

costs to the customer in a fair way. Of making Carter -- cartel profits?

I do believe that the level of profits they have passed on to their

shareholders is high, compared to the reductions they could have

provided to consumers. Let's look at the evidence for that. Here are the

British owned companies, SSE and Centrica. In the last fiscal year

they made combined earnings of £4 billion. But they invested £3

billion. The remaining money went to debt servicing and paying dividends,

which go into pension funds. Where in these figures is the

profiteering? My figures that I got through their reporting to Ofgem and

work done by other organisations, Witch and others, it shows that in

Centrica's case they have something like 8% return in profit margins on

the retail side. That goes up to 24% on the generation side. They have

passed on, in terms of profits, something I70 4% through evidence to

shareholders. But these figures don't show that. They have invested

£3 billion. I am reporting what has been reported by Ofgem. Ofgem has

not accused them of property in. They may well be, but we don't have

the evidence. I would accuse Ofgem of not doing the job they should be

doing, and they have held back from tackling the issue. It is

acknowledged, across the sector, across the big six, something like

50% of profits has gone over to dividends to shareholders. In

Centrica's case it is 74%. On the Centrica example, even though they

have had the highest profit margins, they have invested the least. It is

fair to question. We are running out they have invested the least. It is

of time. None of us really know what the true price of energy is that is

Labour's policy to reform his crucial. That is because he merged

the market and we can't tell the difference. If they continue putting

prices up, even after your price freeze, if they don't invest in a

way that they do, do you rule out wholesale nationalisation?

Absolutely. I want a more competitive market and that is why

we are resetting it. You are watching Sunday Politics. Coming up

in just over 20 minutes I will be looking at the week ahead with our

political panel and Hello, and welcome to the programme.

Some more instalment is in crisis, others passed it off as pure drama.

The Prime Minister warned of difficulties but insisted there was

no power-sharing crisis. We will hear life from the Secretary of

State, who is at the Tory party conference in Manchester.

Could people on this side of the border be offered a chance to vote

Could people on this side of the in Irish presidential elections? The

body set up to recommend changes to in Irish presidential elections? The

the Republic's condition votes on the issue.

I am joined by the Belfast Telegraph's political editor, Liam

Clarke, and the editor of the Irish News, Noel Doran.

As Tories gather in Manchester for their annual conference this

weekend, the party has rejected Labour claims that the Secretary of

State Theresa Villiers is taking a semi detached approach to tackling

State Theresa Villiers is taking a serious issues here. On Friday, Eva

Taman sidestepped any suggestion he might have to intervene in the Haas

talks. -- David Cameron sidestepped. You spoke to the Prime Minister in

Downing Street at the end of last week. He says there is no crisis,

but what is the mood among delegates in Manchester today? A despair to

say Northern Ireland is not the talking point. People are talking

about the economy and the announcement relating to housing,

and welfare reform. It is not as high up on the agenda as it used to

be. David Cameron said he does not think Stormont is in crisis. He said

he is not going to intervene every five minutes. To find out if that

analysis is shared by the Secretary of State, I am joined by Theresa

Villiers. The Prime Minister says there is not a crisis at Stormont,

ie in danger of underplaying it? Clearly, we have a mandatory five

party coalition. There will be times when they do not agree with each

other. That is a fact of life in any coalition. We know that in the

Conservatives. I have had a very constructive meeting. There is

important work going on in relation to the economic package. It is the

case that there is work going on. There is always a need for closer

cooperation and more progress and I will continue to press the case with

all parties. The Labour Party say you should be more involved. Do you

accept there is a danger you could be seen as semidetached? I do not

accept that criticism. The Prime Minister and I have been very

involved in the economic package, the G8, and the investment

conference coming up. We believe passionately in rebalancing the

economy in Northern Ireland and being on the side of hard-working

people. That is why we have reduced income tax for many of them, why we

have frozen fuel duty, and why are devastated and plan is aimed at

boosting the Northern Ireland economy and helping people with

household bills by keeping mortgages low. I have talked to every

political party about the Haas process. That is why we are

encouraging the First and Deputy First Minister to get this started

in the first place and take hold of First Minister to get this started

the important issues. What happens if you do not meet the deadline for

the talks at Christmas? We should have faith in the process as it

starts. We should not be looking at failure before it has even kicked

off. I think Richard Haass is an impressive individual and the

reality is, Northern Ireland's political leadership have

demonstrated the ability to resolve difficult problems and have

demonstrated an ability to make progress and they have transformed

life in Northern Ireland. I believe they are capable of resolving these

questions. On the three areas, flags, parading on the past, which

of those steel think you could get agreement on most quickly? -- which

of those do you think. Flags and parading are easier to build

consensus on than the past. It is well worth pushing forward fresh

thinking on all three issues. This week at the conference you are

talking about doing things for hard-working people. What of those

measures will apply to Northern Ireland and will there be special

measures? A number of the measures are crucial - fixing public finances

is the only way to rebalance the economy and boost the private sector

in Northern Ireland. We are also helping with the cost of living,

which is a big issue for many in Northern Ireland. That is why we

have reduced income tax and fuel duty. We are also focusing on

drawing in investment into Northern Ireland. That is why the Prime

Minister will be back in Northern Ireland in a few days for a global

Minister will be back in Northern investment conference, which is

Minister will be back in Northern making the most of the fantastically

successful G8 which was in Northern Ireland. What happens if Stormont

successful G8 which was in Northern does not meet its welfare reform

deadline? If Stormont decides they are not going to implement welfare

reform, that does leave them with a bill rising to around 60 million a

year. It is a very big decision to break with parity, so I hope they

will recognise that we have worked hard to give them the flexibility

that Nelson McCausland asked for. We understand the concerns about

welfare reform and we are convinced reforms are the right way forward

and we hope the Executive feel the same.

Back to Belfast. Let's hear the same.

thoughts of my studio guests, the Irish News editor Noel Doran and

Liam Clarke, the political editor of the Belfast Telegraph. Noel Doran,

no surprise that the Secretary of State would say she has every

confidence that Northern Ireland's politicians are capable of coming to

a resolution of the issues in Richard Haass's talks. Do you think

she feels she has to say that order she believe it? We have not seen

much of her in recent times. I she believe it? We have not seen

suppose she would say that. We are in difficulties. There are tensions

and relationships have been declining. Not so much of the last

week or two, but last August and the latter confronting the Parades

Commission which was not signed by Peter Robinson. A second draft

emerged and that change the climate completely. You could argue that the

Secretary of State is caught between a rock and a hard place. On the one

hand, she cannot interfere in the Richard Haass talks and on the other

hand she is accused of being semidetached? I think this is

merited. Both are First and Deputy First Minister have not been seen

together much and for her to grab the wheel while there is a moment of

difficulty would undermine the institutions and the chance of

getting a solution. She has to hold back. If things get really bad,

people expect the Irish and British back. If things get really bad,

government to intervene and you have got to keep the pressure on local

players to do more. Interesting turn of phrase on flags and parades. She

said they are two areas more susceptible to building consensus

than the past. It is interesting. These are the issues that have

tended to drag us down not over just the last year but many years.

Obviously it is possible to come up with solutions but it has proved

impossible in recent times. The thing is getting worse. It will take

a fair bit of negotiating to get out of the tangle of parades and flags.

Are we just aiming for a resolution of two of the three key areas, is

that where we have lowered our sites? I think it is. There was a

hope that Richard Haass would suggest a consultation on the past.

There is optimism on parading, because it was agreed between people

in 2010. We cannot have the Orange Order are saying that is a start for

negotiations. If we can get that sort, because the drugs is dying

every year. Having had a crisis in the past week? The crisis reference

came from Gerry Kelly, who tends to find himself on the front line in

circumstances you would not necessarily find Martin McGuinness.

If we saw Martin McGuinness saying things like that we might be

entitled to be more worried. There is no doubt that the relationship

between Sinn Fein and the DUP has to climb. You think that -- do you

think that Sinn Fein need to reflect on Castlederg? Yes. I do not think

it is a crisis and I do not think either party needs to pull out of

government, but there is no doubt it is harder for them to get business

done and there is the potential for more obstruction later on. Moth

emulator. -- more from you later. Now, 60

Seconds. The week got off to a fiery start

with a wry between the First Minister and Jim Allister. The

member as the executor of a will is selling land to republicans in

County Fermanagh to benefit his own family. That is fair game as a

politician but my wife is not in politics. John O'Dowd says Sinn Fein

politician but my wife is not in may reconsider republican

commemorations. Lord Mara's human trafficking bill took a step closer

to becoming law. -- Lord Morrow. We can help some of the most

vulnerable men, women and children, who come to our province.

The Prime Minister says power-sharing is working. They work

hard at their relationship and they are doing the right thing by

governing together. I would not call it that, but there are is more to

come. -- but there is.

People on this side of the border could soon be offered the chance to

People on this side of the border vote in Ireland's presidential

elections. It is part of a possible reform of the law in the public

which is primarily aimed at allowing emigrants to vote for the head of

the state, but would also allow people in the north to cast a

ballot. With me, Alastair Ross and Barry McElduff. Why is this only an

issue? It is not suddenly an issue. Since 2011 there has been an

independent campaign, one vote, one voice. Even predating that, it is an

issue for nationalists in the North. They want more meaningful expression

of our constitutional right to our Irishness. Why is it an issue now?

of our constitutional right to our It is in the Good Friday Agreement

ad in the Constitution that we have a birth rate entitlement to an Irish

national identity. It is in the Good Friday Agreement. Which was 1998.

There has been a quiet campaign, and it came to light more following on

from the presidency of Mary McAleese. It is a huge irony that I

might resort to GAA talk now. Not of the footballers in 2003 had a vote

at Croke Park, and Mary McAleese did not have a vote. We want meaningful

expression. Is it also partly to do with the fact that Martin McGuinness

expression. Is it also partly to do might have won in 2011 if he had had

northern votes? There is northern interest but it is not confined to

the nationalist and republican community. During Mary McAleese's

presidency, I was a regular visitor to the presidential house. People

from all sides wanted to be part of those delegations. But would you

want people to vote in the South's presidential elections? The Irish

president is the president of the Republic of Ireland has no

jurisdiction over Northern Ireland. Distinction has been made and the

office of the president has been a force for good, and I would not want

there to be a backward step. You would not want to give the

impression that the President has jurisdiction over Northern Ireland.

But surely people who want to vote would have the right to do so? It

would give the didymus the to the idea of having control over all of

Ireland. -- it would give legitimacy. There are citizens in

Northern Ireland who do not pay taxes in the Republic, have no stake

in the outcome of the elections, who taxes in the Republic, have no stake

do not live there, potentially having a say in the outcome of the

election. But that happens all over the world, where expats are allowed

to vote in presidential elections. If you get their way, somebody

living in London or America with an Irish passport could vote but

someone in Belfast could not. That Irish passport could vote but

is not true, there is not an absolute right. If you live in

America or Australia or somewhere for 15 years, you would not be able

to vote in a UK election. You could have somebody living in Australia or

America for the last 30 years who have no stake in what is happening

here. The fact that they do not pay taxes would suggest that to me and I

think people in the Republic would feel at. He is being perfectly

reasonable when he says it is a step too far. It is not too far, it is

hugely symbolic. It is for Alastair Ross! I would suggest there is a

strong interest in the Protestant community, and certainly in the

nationalist community, about wanting to access voting rights in respect

of a presidential election. You think unionists and the North want

to vote in -- in the North want to vote in the Irish presidential

election? Where is your evidence? Mary McAleese opened up the doors,

even on the 12th of July, two orange groups who might want to avail of

the premises. -- to Orange Order groups. There is a significant

interest in my part of world. I brought down a group of 49 mothers

of autistic children. It is good to give meaningful expression to the

Good Friday Agreement. You think give meaningful expression to the

there are unionists in the North who want to vote in the Irish

presidential election, who are they? I have attended meetings of the one

vote, one voice campaign, which is non-party aligned, and there were

members of the Protestant unionist community there. Often people are

ahead of their politicians. Well, there you are. I have never met any

of them. Barry McElduff has a better ear to the ground with grassroots

unionism than you have. Well, my door is open to anyone who is

interested in this. The surveys door is open to anyone who is

lately would indicate that people are content with the constitutional

position and do not take that much interest in politics down south.

Under the Good Friday Agreement you are entitled to dual citizenship,

and if you live in the north you are entitled to have a say in the Irish

nation, if you wish to express it. entitled to have a say in the Irish

That is fair enough about me well be what happens. This debate would

indicate that we do not have a right. It comes back to this point,

do individuals living in Northern Ireland who do not contribute to the

Republic of Ireland economy with taxation, who do not have to live

with the consequences of the vote, should they have to live with the

outcome of a vote that is not affect them? That is a key issue which is

very important to ordinary citizens. I think this position is regressive.

You said that other states and countries have this approach. In the

French presidential election last year, almost 1 million people beyond

the French state voted in apprentice presidential election. There are

certain people who see this as a bit of a Trojan horse, this is the thin

end of the wedge. You have got to be sensitive to that. It is about

rights, and rights threaten no one. If Alistair did not want to avail of

that it is his choice. But it could change people's notion of the status

of Northern Ireland and its relationship to the Republic. Jana

Mac President Michael D Higgins said he was a president for all of the

Irish people, North and South, and for the wider diaspora. I do not

think he is threatening. He is not the president for all of the people

of Northern Ireland. His jurisdiction has been over the Irish

Republic. I think relationships have been good and I would not want to

jeopardise that. The Alliance Party took part in one vote, one voice.

The Alliance Party might be divided. It will be interesting to hear what

people say and to see what the result of the vote is when it

happens later on today. A final word from our commentators.

Do you think it is a burning issue, A final word from our commentators.

are there are a lot of people in Northern Ireland who would like to

avail of the opportunity to vote in an Irish presidential election? It

is difficult enough to get them to vote in Northern Ireland! If they

voted it would be on local issues. Research says 67% of Catholics would

vote Sinn Fein. If Protestants are unionists vote against Sinn Fein,

there is not an engagement with Southern political issues. There

could well be resentment in the south of northerners had the vote

and a factor that. I think there is a petition list attitude with Barry

McElduff. There are always problems but it would be a fascinating

prospect. I watched Michael D Higgins yesterday, he is a

tremendously popular and revered figure. In terms of the impact on

the southern electorate, Martin McGuinness was half a million votes

behind Michael D Higgins. If the Sinn Fein electoral machine had

delivered, Martin McGuinness would still have been third. I think some

northern nationalists would not have voted for Michael D Higgins anyway.

I think it is a fascinating prospect and has happened in other countries

and the debate is eight report -- an important one. One last issue,

Daniel Libeskind, responsible for the Maze-Long Kesh project, said he

believes this by Peter Robinson's intervention that the project will

happen. That is an interesting contribution at this time? It was a

loss of nerve on the part of the DUP. Peter Robinson said it would

not be a shrine to terrorism but he said he was finding that unionist

victims group 's did not accept his argument. -- unionist victims'

groups. Why would the son of a Holocaust victim want to build a

shrine to terrorism? Yes, that needs to be taken seriously. I am not sure

that everyone is enthusiastic about the project, but I think Sinn Fein

believed they had a deal with Peter Robinson and when

and Emily Thornberry. Back to you, Andrew.

So, we'll David Cameron's marriage tax break win over voters? How will

So, we'll David Cameron's marriage the Tories react to Ed Miliband's

conference initiatives? And what is UKIP leader Nigel FarageFarage up to

with the Tories in Manchester? Joining us now is UKIP's Diane

James. She came second in the easterly by-election.

On this business of a possible Tory- UKIP pact, in a general election,

let's see what David Cameron had to say about that earlier. I am not

looking for a packed. I think we need to give people a clear choice

at the general election. The British economy has turned a corner. We are

on the right track, we are seeing more jobs, new businesses, we are

beginning to get things moving again. Do you want to stick with us,

delivering an economy for hard-working people, or do you want

to put it at risk with Ed Miliband hard-working people, or do you want

and his crazy plans to tax business out of existence? That was the Prime

Minister on the Sunday Politics. Is there any appetite on the UKIP side

for a pact? In my experience, discussions around the country, I

would say no. It's being discussed, then? EU no. It has not come up. It

is the media that is pushing this. It has reflected what has happened

with the parties since the conference season began. Labour are

trying to reclaim what I would call the traditionalist socialist

position. I'm not sure what the Liberal Democrats or two, but the

Conservatives are trying to react to the threat that UKIP represents.

There is this element, the accusation they are lurching more to

the right, which the media wants to interpret as them possibly being

able to do some sort of pact with UKIP. Have you given any thought to

what shape it would take? Not whatsoever. It is not on the radar.

I have read comments, including individual such as Douglas

Carswell, the Eurosceptics, that they might form a potential, let's

call it, you know, cabinet. If there were UKIP members, I don't doubt

that Nigel Farage would be one of them. But I would reiterate it is

not discussions that are taking place. I am thinking more of an

electoral pact, not a coalition. I have responded to that by saying,

the moment, there are no ongoing discussions. There is certainly

nothing that has been discussed at a constituency level or coming out of

the national executive. You don't believe any constituencies are

discussing this with Tory Eurosceptics? I am not privy to what

all 360 constituencies might be discussing. All I can do is give you

the example of the few I have seen and know it is not on the agenda.

Without a pact, it is perfectly possible that you could fail to win

a single seat at the next election, but put Ed Miliband into Downing

Street? Categorically not. There are a number of seats out there that are

very clear marginals, just like Eddy Izzard was. I believe there could be

an MP -- just like Eastleigh was. If you take enough votes away from the

Tories, if you make sure that Labour wins? I will go back to the comment

I made. If you take Eastleigh as an example, a Liberal Democrat held

seat, even after that result, does not mean that UKIP is suddenly going

to be focusing on Tory seats. We are out there because people resonate

with our message. For the Liberal Democrats to make it abundantly

clear that they will not support a referendum, that they will not

support any discussion on leaving the queue, that could be a big

turn-off for voters. David Cameron says there is not going to be a

pact, Diane James says there is not going to be one. There might be one

or at a constituency level. But it seems clear to me that there will

not be a national one. So, does David Cameron have a UKIP strategy?

The only encouraging thing for UKIP's successful David Cameron is

that their support is so enormous UKIP's successful David Cameron is

that the moment that he would only really need to win back maybe a

third or a quarter of its to make a decisive difference to the Tory

share of the vote in 2015. The question becomes, how much of that

UKIP support is up for grabs? A poll last week suggested that 47% of

current UKIP voters would consider voting Tory if it meant preventing

Ed Miliband becoming Prime Minister. That number goes up to 57% against

the backdrop of an economic recovery. So, plausibly, there is

quite a lot to play with. The secondary question is, what does

David Cameron do to win over those people? He has tried a Europe will

referendum and it didn't work. He tried travelling up his immigration

policy and that didn't work. I wonder if it is time. You wait until

the run-up to 2015, when they start to focus on the explicit choice

between Ed Miliband and David Cameron, and that is what shifts a

lot of UKIP support to David Cameron. We heard from William Hague

earlier in the programme, the Tory line is that if you vote UKIP you

could end up with Ed Miliband in Downing Street. That is the simple

appeal, isn't it? Yes, and I think Diane is right, I think the European

elections will show a good showing for UKIP. It is deemed the one where

you can play away. I think it will be hard for people to get excited

about that, I think that bounce will fade away. In Eastleigh, they had a

good ground game, that is difficult for UKIP, that don't have that

machinery sorted. How are they going to fund that operation? But the UKIP

bounce could fade away after the European elections. Even if they go

down to 6% or 8% in a general election, they are still immensely

dangerous to the Conservative Party. But there is really only two things

David Cameron can do. One is to be boring and talk about helping people

with their mortgage, helping with bread and butter issues. The second

thing is, those European actions, he tends to the natural Conservative

voters and says, you have had your fun, next year do you want me or Ed

Miliband us your prime and? The real danger with David Cameron is saying,

of course, there is not going to be a pact, the danger is you will get a

repeat of the 1977 election. John Major said, famously, do not bind my

hands. A series of Conservative candidates said they would

personally rule out membership of the euro, when the Conservative

membership was wait and see. That looked like a Prime Minister not in

charge of his party. The danger is you will get a repeat of that

amongst Conservative candidates. Let's assume you do really well in

the European actions and there is a widespread expectation that you

will, even in Downing Street. They might be managing expectations. What

stops you fading away as the general election approaches? A number of

reasons. As has been mentioned, the whole issue of the referendum pledge

has been proved to be an absolute nonsense. It is so contingent on if

I am re-elected, if it's not a coalition government, is, if, if.

That was fooled nobody. The issue of where voters are coming from, it is

because they have lost faith in what David Cameron says. There is nothing

he is going to say that is convince them to give him another chance. I

think that is my view and the view of a lot of UKIP. I am told that

they have expunged Nigel Farage from the fringes? It is a great scoop, on

the front page. They are outside the ring of steel. Even so, they won't

include him in the conference programme, so they must be worried

about something. His people have paid money for adverts in the Tory

brochure and his name has been taken out. Speaking of people the Tory

brochure and his name has been taken leadership is worried about, Boris

Johnson, are we in any doubt as a result of his Financial Times

interview that he is now beginning his long march back to Parliament?

He does express feeling slightly sad during the Syria debate that he was

not there, on the political front line to participate. I still do not

see why it is in his interest is to move before 2015. No, I don't think

he will move before, I think he is sending a signal to the existing

Tories in the Commons that when Call Me Dave goes, I will be back? He has

the Vince Cable problem, if you say the same thing too many times,

people get bored and factor it in. The interesting thing is him saying

that people have seven years before the electorate get bored of them. He

might be cresting that. He doesn't want to be Prime Minister, he is

much more ambitious than that. He wants to be an emperor. He was

asked, which Roman emperor would you like to be compared to? You said,

Augustus, the first and most important. I don't think you are

thinking big enough. See what I have to put up with, every Sunday? By

virtue of being born in the US, he could be president. Unlike Arnold

Schwarzenegger. How about a deal with Boris? He has made no secret,

after Eastleigh, that he would be open to a discussion. Let's call it

no more than a discussion. He has been adamant, however, he does not

see any reason, any justification or any opportunity where he would be

able to have that discourse with any opportunity where he would be

David Cameron. Maybe it comes down to that on both sides. I've no idea.

We know that the Tories will be even more Eurosceptic after the next

election? I can't imagine David Cameron's successor will be somebody

that supports EU membership in principle. If you look at the

ideological direction of the party. The leadership contest will be about

2018. If you are standing, when David Cameron renegotiate our

membership, are you going to say David Cameron renegotiate our

this is a great deal for Britain because the Prime Minister has

turned to leave rapid change two words in the working Time directive,

turned to leave rapid change two or are you going to become a leader

by saying, I want out? What would be a good conference for David Cameron

this week? A decent poll bounce. Ed Miliband have a good one. An

eye-catching announcement related to living standards. May be a clearer

line on energy prices? That would certainly help, that fightback has

been rubbish so far. The thing we should be looking out for are not

the polls immediately after, but the ones about the end of October, when

everything gets to settle down and then we will see what happens. In a

word, what is Nigel Farage out to get at the Tory conference? What is

he doing, other than mischief? I could almost say revenge. Revenge on

Mr Cameron? Yes. You know? Lord Ashcroft was there at the Labour

conference, let's put it into conference. You call it mischief,

but there is every reason why he should be there. We all call it

mischief. Thanks for being with us. Join me on Daily Politics for live

coverage of the Conservative Party conference tomorrow morning from

11:30 on BBC Two. We will bring you George Osborne's speech live and

uninterrupted. I'll be back next weekend when guests will include

former Conservative Chancellor Kenneth Clarke. Remember, if it is

Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.