Browse content similar to 30/03/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
Can Ed Davey keep the lights on? Can he ever deliver cheaper power? Or | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
the investment our energy market badly needs? We'll be asking the | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
Energy Secretary. Why has the anti-independence Better | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
Together campaign suddenly got the jitters? We'll be quizzing Scottish | :00:53. | :00:58. | |
Secretary Alistair Carmichael. And whatever happened to the BNP? | :00:59. | :01:01. | |
And in Northern Ireland - another They could be heading for electoral | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
And in Northern Ireland - another week where the health service has | :01:06. | :01:08. | |
been making the headlines. Is it crisis time for the politicians | :01:09. | :01:11. | |
charged with looking after the system? Join me in half an hour. | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
which runs the capital's Fire Service. The Mayor has a political | :01:16. | :01:18. | |
move designed to silence his critics. | :01:19. | :01:24. | |
And with me, as always, the most useless political panel in the | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
business, who we're contractually obliged to insult on a weekly basis. | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
But not today, because they are our chosen ones. They are the brightest | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
and the best, we've even hired a plane to prove it: Helen Lewis, | :01:38. | :01:44. | |
Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who'll be tweeting throughout the programme. | :01:45. | :01:50. | |
Right, left and centre of the Westminster Establishment have been | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
unanimous in saying there would be no chance of monetary union with the | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
rest of the UK for an independent Scotland. Then an unnamed minister | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
spoke to our Nick saying that wasn't necessarily so, and that made the | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
Guardian's front page. The SNP were delighted and the anti-independence | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
campaign rushed to limit the damage. The faux pas has come at a time when | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
the Better Together side was already beginning to worry that things were | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
going the Nationalists' way. Let's speak to a leading light in that | :02:21. | :02:22. | |
campaign, Scottish Secretary Alistair Carmichael, who's in | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
Aberdeen at the Scottish Liberal Democrat spring conference. | :02:26. | :02:36. | |
Alistair Carmichael, why is there a sense of crisis now engulfing the no | :02:37. | :02:42. | |
campaign? I think that is something of an overstatement. What you have | :02:43. | :02:50. | |
got is, I am getting my own voice played back in my ear. What you have | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
got here is one story from an unnamed source, a minister who we | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
are told, we do not know for certain, who has speculated on the | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
possibility of a currency union actually happening. I do not think | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
that is helpful but it is not any big deal. You have to measure it | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
against what we have got publicly named on the record. We have got a | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
detailed intervention of the Governor of the Bank of England, | :03:17. | :03:19. | |
Mark Carney, outlining all the reasons why a currency union would | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
not be a good idea. And then you have got independent advice from the | :03:25. | :03:27. | |
permanent Secretary of the Treasury himself saying actually, this is | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
such a bad idea, that I would never advise a chancellor to go ahead with | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
it. You set one against the other and you see that pretty much the | :03:36. | :03:42. | |
force of argument is very much against those of us who want to | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
remain in the United Kingdom. All the minister was saying is come the | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
day, if Westminster is negotiating with a new independent Scotland, a | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
deal is to be done, Faslane where the nuclear deterrent is, there is | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
nowhere else in the UK to put that is, certainly not for the next 20 | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
years, a deal would be done, the nuclear weapons would stay in | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
Faslane and Scotland would get a monetary union with the rest of the | :04:08. | :04:10. | |
UK. That is perfectly plausible, isn't it? No, I'm sorry, it is | :04:11. | :04:17. | |
simply not plausible. The economy is more important than anything else. | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
What you have had here is very clear advice from the treasury officials | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
saying it is not in the economic best interests of the people of | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
England Wales, Northern Ireland, any more than it is in the interests of | :04:30. | :04:35. | |
people in Scotland. Where do you put the nukes? The outcome will not | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
change. Where do you put the nukes when the Nationalists kick you out? | :04:43. | :04:49. | |
I do not believe that will be a problem because I do not believe | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
Scotland will vote for independence. But you might be asking the Scottish | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
Nationalists, who are apparently promoting this, are they then not | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
sincere when they say they want to remove nuclear weapons from | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
Scotland? It seems to be a curious mixed message. As you know, I have | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
not got the Nationalists, I have got you, so let me ask you the | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
questions. You are widely seen as running a campaign which is too | :05:15. | :05:26. | |
negative. The Nationalists are narrowing the gap in the poll found | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
you are squabbling among yourselves. This campaign is going pear shaped, | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
isn't it? No, let's deal with the polls. All the polls show that the | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
people of Scotland want to stay as part of the United Kingdom. Yes, | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
there were a couple of polls last week that said the gap was narrowing | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
a little. The most recent poll of all, the poll on Wednesday which | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
actually polled people's voting intentions on the question come | :05:56. | :05:58. | |
September showed that only 28% of people in Scotland were prepared to | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
say they were voting yes, as opposed to the 42% who were on our side of | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
the argument saying they wish to remain part of the UK. That poll | :06:07. | :06:12. | |
said women were skewing towards a yes vote and it showed that the | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
don't knows were beginning to skew towards a yes vote. That is why you | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
yourself wrote this morning that if your campaign does not get its act | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
together, you would be sleepwalking into a split to quote yourself. No, | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
to quote myself I said it was not impossible that the Nationalists | :06:34. | :06:36. | |
could win that. That is absolutely the case. The biggest danger for the | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
United Kingdom camp in this whole argument is people will look at the | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
polls. They show us with a healthy lead consistently. As a consequence, | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
they think this will not happen. It can happen. I have got to tell | :06:50. | :07:05. | |
everybody that it could, not least because the Nationalists have an | :07:06. | :07:07. | |
enormous advantage in terms of the amount of money they have at their | :07:08. | :07:09. | |
disposal to buy momentum. They will be advertising in cinemas, in | :07:10. | :07:11. | |
football matches and on social media. We have got to realise what | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
is coming and as a consequence, we have got to get our arguments in | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
place and our campaign as sharp as theirs. Thank you for joining us. | :07:22. | :07:28. | |
Nick, this unnamed minister who gave you the story, did he or she know | :07:29. | :07:34. | |
what they were doing? I do not think they were sitting there wanting to | :07:35. | :07:41. | |
blast this out there, because the agreed government position was there | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
will not be a currency union, if there is a vote for independence. | :07:46. | :07:52. | |
But what I was managing to get hold of whether thoughts that are in the | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
deeper recesses of people's minds, when they are looking at the polls | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
which have been narrowing, or there was Alistair Carmichael quite | :08:01. | :08:03. | |
rightly says, the pro-UK vote is still ahead. People are looking down | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
the line, what would happen after the 18th of September this year, not | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
just the next day but the next year, in those very lengthy | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
negotiations that would take place, when there would be a lot of moving | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
places on the table. You talked about Faslane, what would happen | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
then and that is what I managed to get hold of, that there are thoughts | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
about all those pieces that would be on the table. It is not surprising | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
that some in Westminster think that. Let's take the Shadow | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
Chancellor Danny Alexander at his word, they do not want a monetary | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
union. But if they are faced with giving the Scots a monetary union in | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
a post-independent Scotland, or having to remove the nuclear | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
submarines from Faslane, where they have nowhere else to put them, | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
probably except North America, there is a deal to be done. I think | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
whatever minister gave Nick his story is probably onto something. If | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
the Scots vote for independence, of course a deal will be done about the | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
currency because it is not in London's interests to have a | :09:09. | :09:11. | |
rancorous relationship with Edinburgh. Even if the deal is not | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
done, how does one country stop another country using its. That is | :09:16. | :09:26. | |
different. All London can really do is prevent Scottish intervention on | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
the monetary policy committee. The interest rate would be set without | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
any regard to the Scottish interest. Even that is only a fatal problem if | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
the Scottish economy becomes so out of sync with the UK economy. Except | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
it is a problem for Scotland's financial system because if you go | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
down that route there is no means of injecting liquidity into the | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
financial system in the financial crisis. That is why they would | :09:53. | :09:55. | |
rather have a monetary union. Is it not remarkable to hear the Secretary | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
of State for Scotland here that the Nationalists are spending too much | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
money, when he represents a campaign which brings together all the major | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
parties in the UK and all the resources of the UK and he is | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
bleating about the Nationalists having more to spend? I did think | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
that was a funny line and it was in the Observer. It lays into Alex | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
Salmond's plucky upstart idea that he's taking on this big | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
establishment. I thought it was a bizarre open goal, I am losing my | :10:23. | :10:29. | |
football metaphors, forgive me. The polls are so in favour of a no | :10:30. | :10:37. | |
vote. But the trend has been going their way. We have six months left | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
which is not enough to close the gap. They always tell you Alex | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
Salmond is a strong finisher. The plucky upstarts have this funding | :10:47. | :10:53. | |
from a millionaire. The Better Together campaign are being | :10:54. | :10:56. | |
incredibly cautious about where they get their money from. They do not | :10:57. | :10:59. | |
want to go to the City of London Police say, give us a couple of | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
million. Being Energy Secretary used to be a | :11:04. | :11:06. | |
bit of a dawdle, especially when North Sea oil was flowing. Now it's | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
very much a hot potato as Ed Davey has been finding out the hard way. | :11:11. | :11:17. | |
High household energy bills have been top of his inbox. The big six | :11:18. | :11:25. | |
energy companies account for 95% of the market. Off Johnson -- Ofgem | :11:26. | :11:32. | |
said there had been possible tacit coordination in the timing of price | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
rises and ordered an investigation by the competition and markets | :11:38. | :11:40. | |
authorities which will look at whether the big six should be broken | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
up. Where does that leave investment? The boss of Centrica | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
made the point that you would not spend money building an extension if | :11:50. | :11:52. | |
you knew in two years time your home might be bulldozed. The spare | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
margin, that is what is left in the generating system to cope with a | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
surge in demand on a cold winter's night, is due to drop to | :12:02. | :12:08. | |
historically low levels in 2016, according to Ofgem. Normally at | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
around 15%, capacity could drop to 2% after the next election and that | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
could lead to a surge in the sale of candles. Now where is that light | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
switch? Energy Secretary Ed Davey, joins me | :12:23. | :12:28. | |
now. Oh, we have found the light switch! The gap between a peak | :12:29. | :12:35. | |
winter demand and generating capacity could possibly reach 2% | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
next winter or the winter after. We will keep the lights on, that is for | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
clear. When we came to power, energy investment had been relatively low. | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
The Labour Party had failed to deal with the energy deficit. From day | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
one we have been pushing up massively. Investment has been 8 | :12:55. | :13:02. | |
billion a year. Last year was a record. Spare capacity is now | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
heading to 2%. Why are you allowing it to get that no? Because we have | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
been increasing investment massively, last was a record level, | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
we will be able to keep the lights on. Some of the figures you are | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
showing suggests we are not doing anything. We have not only done | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
enough in our last three years, we have put in measures to stimulate | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
huge amounts of extra investment. We have the healthiest pipeline | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
investment in our history. We will come onto investment in a minute. | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
None of that change is the fact that we will be close to 2% next winter | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
or the winter after that. We have one major power station shut down, | :13:43. | :13:49. | |
or a cold winter away from having major problems with energy supply. | :13:50. | :13:57. | |
It is still 2%. Let me explain. The figures assume we are not doing | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
anything but we are doing something. Look at the National Grid. They are | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
able to bring in energy from interconnector is because we are | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
connected up to Europe. They are able to create a reserve so if we | :14:10. | :14:16. | |
get to problems, they will have a mothballed plant they can bring on. | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
You have not agreed with anybody on that. The decision was taken last | :14:22. | :14:28. | |
July. But no supplier has agreed to under mothball its plant. We would | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
not expect them to do that yet. Our plan is in place. On time, on | :14:34. | :14:39. | |
schedule, as we already thought it would be. But you have not got a | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
single agreement with a power supply who has mothballed plant to on the | :14:44. | :14:51. | |
ball it. We did not expect to. Our plan is in me National Grid will do | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
an election to allow those plants to come on. There is a huge amount of | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
interest. There are gigawatts of power that can come in to come on. | :15:01. | :15:03. | |
There is a huge amount of interest. There are gigawatts of power that | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
can come into that auction and we are not other measures we can take | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
and that is just in the short term. We have a plan for the medium-term. | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
We will be running the first auction for new capacity. The final decision | :15:17. | :15:32. | |
will be taken and we have learned lessons from what they do in North | :15:33. | :15:34. | |
America and other European countries so we can stay minute mothballed | :15:35. | :15:37. | |
plants and new plants to be built. I am absolutely clear there is not a | :15:38. | :15:46. | |
problem. You only build 9000 megawatts of new capacity from | :15:47. | :15:53. | |
2011-13. You have closed almost 22,000 megawatts. Why would you be | :15:54. | :15:56. | |
so cavalier with a nation's power supply? The last Government was | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
cavalier because we knew those figures are happening because we've | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
known for a long time a lot of power plants were coming to the end of | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
their life, coal power plants, nuclear power plants, and we had to | :16:10. | :16:11. | |
increase the rate of investment, but we... That shows clearly you are | :16:12. | :16:19. | |
closing twice as much, you have to date, closed twice as much as you | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
have opened, hence the lack of spare capacity. We knew a lot of them are | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
coming back for the last Labour Government knew. We have increased | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
the new so that's increasing significantly, far faster than under | :16:32. | :16:33. | |
the last Government but also remember, you were very wrong at the | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
beginning of your clip, margins at 15% are very own usual. They are | :16:39. | :16:46. | |
historically high. The average margin was 25%. That was wasting a | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
huge amount of money. But since privatisation, we've had margins | :16:51. | :16:56. | |
between 5% and 10%. Normally, high margins historically, which is | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
costly. Now we will have historically low margins. People | :17:03. | :17:05. | |
have to pay for that, so we make sure the lights stay on, we have a | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
short-term policy I have described to you, and medium-term policy and a | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
long-term policy. The long-term policy comes huge investment between | :17:14. | :17:15. | |
nuclear and optional, policy comes huge investment between | :17:16. | :17:39. | |
on. Ofgem, Independent, says the chance of blackouts by 2016 has | :17:40. | :17:46. | |
increased fourfold under your watch. What they say, if you read the | :17:47. | :17:55. | |
report, if we did nothing, they would be problems. But we have been | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
working with Ofgem. We have been working with National Grid, and we | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
have agreed that there will be a reserve capacity which can come on | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
if we get to the peak for the Best not just on the supply side but | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
demand and into connectors. You talk about industry having to move to | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
off-peak times. We say, they are prepared to that you paid for it, | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
and it makes commercial sense for them, it's a sensible thing for the | :18:23. | :18:25. | |
Wii will pay them to move to off-peak. You have huge diesel parks | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
for the you talk as if that something new but it's been around | :18:31. | :18:33. | |
for a long time for the 200 these contracts out there. We want to | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
expand that. You have hundreds of diesel generators to click into, | :18:40. | :18:42. | |
haven't you? There's a whole range of generators. Diesel generation, | :18:43. | :18:49. | |
dirty fuel. There's a of mothballed gas which can come. If you look at | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
the increase of the independent generators, many companies, a range | :18:55. | :19:05. | |
of power companies who are building a new power station and want to | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
build new ones. This is a healthy situation. You say you made over 100 | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
billion new investment between now and the end of the decade to restore | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
capacity and meet renewable targets. Now you have referred the | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
Big Six to the competition commission, how much of that to | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
expect to come from them? We will see what the market delivers. We | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
have always expected independent generators to do a lot more than is | :19:31. | :19:36. | |
happening in the past. How much from the Big Six? It's not for me to say | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
it's going to be best from that company. The real interest is we | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
have huge amounts of companies wanting to invest. If you look at | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
independent analysis, they say Britain is one of the best places to | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
invest in energy in the world. We are the worldly do in offshore | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
wind, one of the best for renewables, one of the only | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
countries getting nuclear power stations. Rather than the bleaker | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
picture you're painting, the reverse is the case. We are seeing an | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
investment renaissance. You say that. Let me give you some facts. | :20:10. | :20:15. | |
Under this Government, only one gas plant has been under construction, | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
only one started under your watch for the others were done under | :20:21. | :20:23. | |
Labour. You have none in the pipeline. The Big Six has pulled | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
back from further investment including new offshore wind | :20:29. | :20:30. | |
investment and none of what you're talking about will come before 2020 | :20:31. | :20:36. | |
anyway. That's simply not true. The balance reserves I've talked about, | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
the reserve planned: Making sure the mothballed plant could come on, I | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
capacity market incentivising new power, will happen way before 2020, | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
so that's not true. But doesn't answer the extra capacity. You have | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
no answer between now and the end of this decade. We have three answers. | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
Let me repeat them for you. I said permanent, not the short-term ones | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
you are putting in place to try to do with spare capacity. We have a | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
short-term plan, of course, that's very sensible. Medium-term plan, | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
auctioning for new power stations. That can lead to both mothballed | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
plant and when you plant, permanent plant being built, and the long-term | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
plan, to stimulator long-term investment, some of which will be | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
built and come online way before the end of the decade. I'm afraid, it's | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
a far rosier picture than your painting. It's also far more | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
expensive, too. Let's look at how you are replacing relatively cheap | :21:35. | :21:38. | |
energy with much more expensive sources of energy. Wholesale prices | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
is ?50 per megawatt. You have done a deal with EDF, nuclear, ?92 50. You | :21:45. | :21:51. | |
have indexed it for 30 years at 2012 prices. | :21:52. | :22:01. | |
All of that puts up our bills. First of all, the support of the low | :22:02. | :22:11. | |
Carbon is just 4% on bills. What has been driving peoples bills over the | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
last decade has been wholesale gas prices. No one knows what guys | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
prices are going to be in the future -- gas prices. When you look at the | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
Ukraine and other market indicators, many people are worried that by the | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
time nuclear power stations come online for example, the price of gas | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
could be significantly higher. You have indexed linked that for them by | :22:32. | :22:34. | |
the time you get any power from this, it'll be up to ?125 per | :22:35. | :22:40. | |
megawatt hour. The price of gas been going up far higher. Not recently. | :22:41. | :22:49. | |
Despite Iran, Ukraine, Libya, not recently. The long-term forecast, | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
Andrew, it's going to go higher but more importantly than that, this is | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
an area we could disagree on but it's very important that power | :22:58. | :23:00. | |
plants pay the cost of pollution. In those prizes, all of those prices | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
except the wholesale out a steep price, you have those power stations | :23:06. | :23:11. | |
paying the cost of air pollution. If gas and coal where paying the proper | :23:12. | :23:14. | |
carbon price, you would see nuclear and renewables as competitive. It's | :23:15. | :23:20. | |
very important that we ensure that power plants pay the cost of the | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
pollution. When you were last on this programme to talk about this in | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
May 2012, you said that the price of offshore wind was coming down fast. | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
You told me it would be down by 30% in the next few years. That figure | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
is 155, and for the deeper stuff, it's going to be ?165. That's the | :23:39. | :23:44. | |
first year of a limit control framework which had it coming down. | :23:45. | :23:52. | |
If you talk to many companies, Siemens had invested with their | :23:53. | :23:58. | |
partners, ?310 million with two new factories. They are talking about | :23:59. | :24:04. | |
lower prices because what they are saying to me is that, rather than | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
the 30% cost reductions I talked about, I was wrong, they are | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
targeting 40%. You said prices would come down 30% in two years for that | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
that was 2012 and they have gone higher. I absolutely did not say | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
that. Your exact quote was 30% in the next few years. Your exact few | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
years. You said two years, I sell a few years. I haven't changed a | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
single moment that you said two years, I said a few years. That's | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
what we are projecting. They will come down. You have to invest in | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
technology. Let me give you this example. When people invest in | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
mobile phones to start off with, they were expensive, and they were | :24:47. | :24:55. | |
clunky and the costs were going down for the one final question. You put | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
the Big Six into investigation because they made a 5% return on | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
investment and you're done a deal with EDF, nuclear power, which will | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
guarantee them a return of 10% - 15% every year for 30 years. Doesn't | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
that underline the shambles of your energy policy? You have mixed up two | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
separate things. The 5% Ofgem are talking about is on the supply | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
retail side. The percentage you quoted for EDF is in the wholesale | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
side of two different markets. It's the same return. It's not. You are | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
comparing apples and pears, dangerous thing to do. You have to | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
do have a high return but in the retail market, with a 5% stake, | :25:39. | :25:41. | |
there is less risk, says a low return. Ed Davey, I'm sorry we | :25:42. | :25:49. | |
haven't got more time. Thank you. Have me back. We will. Whatever | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
happened to the BNP? The far right party looked as if it was on the | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
verge of a major breakthrough not so long ago. Now it seems to be going | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
nowhere. In a moment we'll be speaking to the party's press | :26:03. | :26:04. | |
officer, Simon Derby. But first here's Giles. His report contains | :26:05. | :26:07. | |
some flash photography. For a moment in 2009 Nick Griffin and the BNP had | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
a spring in their step, smiling at their success of winning two seats | :26:12. | :26:14. | |
in the European Parliament. They already were the second largest | :26:15. | :26:17. | |
party in a London council and had a London Assembly seat. Despite | :26:18. | :26:20. | |
concerns from mainstream parties their vote was up. Our vote | :26:21. | :26:32. | |
increased up to 943,000. Savouring success was brief that morning as | :26:33. | :26:35. | |
anti-far right protestors invaded and egged the press conference and | :26:36. | :26:38. | |
forced the BNP MEPs into a hasty retreat. What is more significant is | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
that, in the years since, that retreat has been matched internally, | :26:44. | :26:45. | |
electorally and in the minds of those who had given them that vote. | :26:46. | :26:56. | |
For a number of years they were performing better than the UK | :26:57. | :26:59. | |
Independence Party and other smaller parties like the Greens and respect. | :27:00. | :27:03. | |
The problem for the BNP if they didn't make any inroads into other | :27:04. | :27:05. | |
groups, they didn't go into the middle class, the young, they didn't | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
go into women and ethnic minorities for obvious reasons. So the party | :27:11. | :27:13. | |
was quickly handicapped from the outset. Not that you would have | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
known that at the outset. In 2006 in Barking and Dagenham, the party won | :27:20. | :27:22. | |
12 council seats against a back drop of discontent with the ruling Labour | :27:23. | :27:25. | |
council and Government and picking up on immigration and housing | :27:26. | :27:34. | |
concerns in the borough. It's because of all the different | :27:35. | :27:37. | |
nationality people moving in the area, they are taking over | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
everything. My Nan and grandad lived there all their lives. I thought I | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
would vote for BNP. Hopefully, yeah, they will get elected over here. | :27:48. | :27:53. | |
When I came to Barking, Dagenham and Redbridge in 2006, the BNP with a | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
second largest party in one of the local councils. You can even find | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
non-white people who voted BNP. Now they have no counsellors, and even | :28:03. | :28:05. | |
though can when you talk to people, you will find among the older white | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
working-class population concerned that the BNP claim to represent, | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
everyone says they are nowhere. So what happened to that about? On | :28:15. | :28:21. | |
behalf of all the people in Britain, we in Barking have not just beaten, | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
that we have smashed the attempt of extremist outsiders. The local | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
Labour MP was as clear in 2010 as she is now. I always knew if we | :28:31. | :28:38. | |
could manage to ensure that wasn't a single BNP councillor left on the | :28:39. | :28:41. | |
council and I won my seat, it would stop the process of disintegration. | :28:42. | :28:44. | |
But what beat the BNP here in 2010 was a mobilisation of the Labour | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
vote. And today it is not hard to find the same discontent over the | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
same issues. It's just finding a new political home. A couple of years | :28:53. | :29:00. | |
ago, I used to vote Labour. Obviously, they haven't done nothing | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
around here as much now, with jobs and unemployment, and housing and | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
stuff like that about, basically, BNP ain't around here no more. Now | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
it's more about UKIP and I believe that these UKIP are saying are true. | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
If I thought BNP would make the difference, I would vote but is not | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
in the people behind them. They all get bandaged with the same brush. | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
I'm going to vote UKIP because BNP didn't get anywhere. What they say | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
in UKIP, with a bit of luck, they will get somewhere. It's not racist | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
but it's just that our kids haven't got jobs. Nick Griffin's dislike of | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
UKIP is mutual but his once fellow MEP Andrew Brons who's now left the | :29:40. | :29:42. | |
party issued a statement to this programme saying BNP failure is | :29:43. | :29:51. | |
closer to home post 2010. It was after that election discontent arose | :29:52. | :29:53. | |
amongst sections of the membership. Those members who left or were | :29:54. | :30:10. | |
thrown out by Nick Griffin had already felt let down by his | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
appearance on Question Time. It was a national platform for the BNP, | :30:15. | :30:17. | |
something they felt they had the right to through electoral success. | :30:18. | :30:27. | |
This was no big breakthrough moment for Griffin, unlike it was for John | :30:28. | :30:33. | |
Marina pen when he appeared on national television in France. He | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
went on to mobilise a national force. Despite there being some | :30:38. | :30:40. | |
voters tuned to their message, for the BNP, becoming such a force here | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
has never looked quite so difficult. And Simon Derby from the BNP joins | :30:45. | :30:52. | |
me now. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It was not long ago you | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
had 55 councillors up and down the land, you now have two. You are on | :30:57. | :31:02. | |
the brink of extinction. That is not true. I have watched the film. It is | :31:03. | :31:08. | |
very negative as I would expect. The party has faced a few problems. The | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
main thing to bear in mind is that the issues, the problems the country | :31:13. | :31:19. | |
faces have gone away. We won nearly a million votes in the European | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
elections. We brought that mandate to the establishment and we were | :31:25. | :31:34. | |
denied. Let's face it, we would -- were denied any opportunity to take | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
place in the political apparatus. You have been destroyed by a pincer | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
movement. UKIP has taken away or more respectable voters and the EDL | :31:45. | :31:51. | |
is better at anti-Muslim protests and street thuggery. The EDL is not | :31:52. | :31:58. | |
a political party. I take your point about UKIP. The power structure took | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
a look at us and so we were a threat to power. We were not making this | :32:03. | :32:08. | |
stuff up, we meant it and they have co-opted our message. This shameless | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
promotion of UKIP, you have evenly had him presenting the weather on | :32:14. | :32:16. | |
this programme. That is unbelievable. That was a joke. | :32:17. | :32:22. | |
Across Europe, in France, your sister party the National front will | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
probably do very well. You can see the rise of the far right across | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
Western Europe so why are you in decline? We are not far right, I | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
reject that label. How would you describe yourselves nationalists and | :32:39. | :32:56. | |
Patriots. Why are you in decline and other similar parties to yours are | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
on the rise? You mentioned Barking and it is very interesting because I | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
was involved in that campaign. What Margaret Hodge and her Labour Party | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
did, they replaced the white indigenous population in Barking and | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
Dagenham with Africans, that is how they won that election. For that was | :33:15. | :33:17. | |
true, you would be doing well elsewhere. You have now got a leader | :33:18. | :33:23. | |
who is declared bankrupt and your party is heading for bankruptcy. | :33:24. | :33:29. | |
No, it is not. It is over. You would like that. What I would like is | :33:30. | :33:35. | |
irrelevant. Your membership is in deep decline. All parties have highs | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
and lows. In 2009 they said it is no way you will win any seats in the | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
European election. We did. And then you lost them. Parties win and lose | :33:47. | :33:54. | |
seats. The Lib Dems will be annihilated. You deny you are far | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
right. People used to say the BNP were neo-Nazis. Then Nick Griffin | :34:01. | :34:11. | |
appeared with Golden Dawn. They are not neo-Nazis, they are Nazis. It is | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
part and parcel of being in politics. You have to appear with | :34:17. | :34:23. | |
them? Of course we do, we have to speak to ordinary people. I am | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
perfectly happy speaking to you at the BBC, the BBC have a terrible | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
reputation but I am happy to be here. Mr Griffin has asked me, when | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
will the BBC apologised for trying to put him in prison twice, merely | :34:37. | :34:43. | |
for exposing a Muslim scandal. Why can't Nick Griffin appear on TV and | :34:44. | :34:51. | |
self? He would not appear. He was in Syria. He literally flew out to | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
Damascus and prevented a war. We decided we would not interfere in | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
Syria. The BBC never covered that. Please do not make out we are just | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
an ordinary political party you cover like everybody else. It is | :35:07. | :35:12. | |
completely different. All the signs are, membership, performance at the | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
polls, performance at elections, the problem with your leadership is you | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
are now going the way of the National front, heading for | :35:23. | :35:26. | |
oblivion. As I said to you before, that may be the case, if all the | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
problems we had not highlighted and how we got a huge vote so many years | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
ago, six years ago now, five years ago, in 2009, if they were not | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
around. These things are only going to get worse. We are looking at a | :35:42. | :35:45. | |
prototype Islamic republic that is going to be set up in this country. | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
That will lead to huge problems. Only the British National Party are | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
prepared to say that and deal with it. Word leaked out that I was doing | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
this interview with you before the weekend. Isn't it a sign of how | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
irrelevant you now are that not a single person has turned up at New | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
Broadcasting House this morning to protest? Used to be hundreds would | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
turn up when we said the BNP were on. That is the left for you, they | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
put the clocks forward and they could not be bothered to get out of | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
bed. I think they are still in bed. Thank you. | :36:22. | :36:24. | |
You're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in | :36:25. | :36:26. | |
Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. Another week of | :36:27. | :36:41. | |
headlines for hospitals here - 24 hour waits at the Royal's emergency | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
department and an investigation into 11 deaths in the Northern Trust. | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
So what is needed to resuscitate the health service? The chair of | :36:50. | :36:52. | |
Stormont's Health Committee, Maeve McLaughlin, joins me to discuss the | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
situation. Plus - from true blue to green. I would have said when I was | :36:58. | :37:07. | |
younger I would have been a flag-waving unionist. | :37:08. | :37:10. | |
We hear from the election hopefuls at the Green Party's weekend | :37:11. | :37:13. | |
conference. And with their thoughts on all of that - academic Deirdre | :37:14. | :37:16. | |
Heenan and newspaper editor Jim Flanagan. | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
Problems within the health service have dominated our news agenda for | :37:21. | :37:26. | |
weeks. Long trolley waits in emergency departments, issues over | :37:27. | :37:29. | |
nurses' salaries and then, on Friday, a statement confirming the | :37:30. | :37:32. | |
deaths of five babies, are among eleven under investigation at the | :37:33. | :37:39. | |
Northern Health Trust. Our health correspondent, Marie-Louise | :37:40. | :37:41. | |
Connolly, asked the Trust's director, Greg Furness, to explain | :37:42. | :37:48. | |
what went wrong. It is one of the things the turnaround team have | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
looked at to see what is the culture. It is a culture of | :37:53. | :37:59. | |
reporting, a culture of taking things extremely seriously and | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
working hard to get a quick resolution as to what went wrong. It | :38:04. | :38:10. | |
is a culture which is... Takes a while to develop. Why wasn't it in | :38:11. | :38:18. | |
place five years ago? I can't answer. It is serious. Yes. We now | :38:19. | :38:25. | |
and have been for the last many months addressing that period in the | :38:26. | :38:31. | |
trust to turn it around. It is shocking to know in a trust like | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
this that the proper procedure was not being adhered to. Why not? I am | :38:36. | :38:42. | |
asking you, how could something so serious and important not be in | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
place and followed? I really can't answer that. The procedures were | :38:49. | :38:54. | |
there, people did not do it. Who was checking? Exactly. This system that | :38:55. | :39:01. | |
was there had a governance committee which was looking at any incidents | :39:02. | :39:08. | |
coming through but it has failed. We are talking about lives. Yes. Anyone | :39:09. | :39:17. | |
held accountable? It is not for me to talk about accountability of | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
people in the past or present. What I can say is the assurance is we are | :39:23. | :39:28. | |
making changes now. Marie-Louise Connolly talking to Dr Greg Furness | :39:29. | :39:31. | |
of the Northern Trust. With me now is the chair of Stormont's Health | :39:32. | :39:34. | |
Committee, the Sinn Fein MLA, Maeve McLaughlin. You have called the | :39:35. | :39:43. | |
situation alarming and said serious questions need to be answered. What | :39:44. | :39:49. | |
other key issues? The statement on Friday indicated this is similar | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
issues in another trust and we need to be mindful that we are dealing | :39:55. | :40:00. | |
with families, there is a degree of sensitivity we need to bring. | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
Clearly, there are issues in the delivery of the health system which | :40:05. | :40:10. | |
is putting points on crisis. It is unacceptable that we're dealing with | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
cases where we hear 20 cases in the Northern trust, the care that was | :40:16. | :40:22. | |
delivered was under standard. Are you concerned this could be the tip | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
of the iceberg? There are many many more cases to be explored. Something | :40:28. | :40:33. | |
in the region of 20,000 X-rays that had to be examined. There are many | :40:34. | :40:37. | |
more cases in the system coming to light. What do you make of Greg | :40:38. | :40:47. | |
Furness's explanation of not putting serious incidents properly? How can | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
they not be reported? It is of concern and listen to his response, | :40:53. | :40:57. | |
we should all be able to answer who is accountable. There are issues | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
about governance and accountability. It seems ironic that | :41:03. | :41:07. | |
the minister for health and the recent deaths... There is something | :41:08. | :41:14. | |
badly wrong when the minister who leads the department ultimately, the | :41:15. | :41:17. | |
buck stops with him and he doesn't know about serious adverse | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
incidents. We continuously here we will learn from mistakes, we will | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
learn the lessons but here we are again with another set of | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
circumstances which is shocking. If those serious incidents are not | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
properly reported, how would he know? Absolutely. The minister has | :41:35. | :41:41. | |
promised a root and branch review and the health Department are coming | :41:42. | :41:45. | |
down with reviews currently but people on the ground need and the | :41:46. | :41:50. | |
wider public and professionals need action around these issues and they | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
need the minister to step up and deliver. This latest set of figures | :41:55. | :42:01. | |
was uncovered by a team sent in by the minister to look at issues | :42:02. | :42:07. | |
because he was unhappy. That is why the turnaround team was sent in. He | :42:08. | :42:13. | |
deserves credit. But many people would say it is too little too late. | :42:14. | :42:20. | |
This is nothing new. The College of emergency medicine, the RCN have | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
been counting these issues for months. This was clearly on the | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
agenda and flagged up as potential crisis, particularly in emergency | :42:29. | :42:34. | |
departments but equally this is only the front window of the system and | :42:35. | :42:39. | |
there needs to be a system approach to the review. This is in many | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
people's minds and issue of public confidence and it is clearly an | :42:44. | :42:47. | |
issue for so many people, particularly front line staff, too | :42:48. | :42:53. | |
little too late. Does that show a shortcoming on your part because you | :42:54. | :42:56. | |
are meant to hold the minister responsible, if he isn't doing his | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
job properly, that means you are not. We have been flagging up for | :43:01. | :43:06. | |
some time the process in transforming care, the vision of | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
transforming care is a good vision. People accept 82 million from acute | :43:11. | :43:16. | |
to community care is positive however where this has failed has | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
been the action to implement that and the lack of practical outcomes. | :43:21. | :43:27. | |
You don't get a sense that shifting 83 million will have positive | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
outcomes across many sectors. Let's move onto another issue, Accident | :43:33. | :43:40. | |
and Emergency issue. Janice Smith said recently an unacceptable | :43:41. | :43:49. | |
situation exists, the RCN seriously concerned targets have become more | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
important than people. Do you share that view? I do increasingly. I have | :43:54. | :43:59. | |
moved to the view that targets in some cases, we can be so focused on | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
not breaching 12 hour targets in departments that it becomes the | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
focus and not the patient. I am sure there are cases will come to light | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
where a patient is moved as a result of not breaching the 12 hour | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
target. I think there is a genuine concern that we are too focused on | :44:19. | :44:25. | |
targets and I also point out the RCN at their evidence session were vocal | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
in saying there is something systematic within the system that is | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
preventing staff and front line staff being heard. Do you think your | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
committee is sufficiently well equipped to get to grips with its | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
responsibilities, can you hold the minister and Department properly to | :44:43. | :44:48. | |
account? Several professionals were grilled, did you give them a tough | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
enough time? I think we did. Ultimately we know the remit. This | :44:54. | :44:59. | |
issue was being suggested from the minister from January, it wasn't a | :45:00. | :45:05. | |
crisis, we have moved the minister to the point he accepts there is | :45:06. | :45:07. | |
something dramatically seriously and systematically wrong in a system. | :45:08. | :45:13. | |
Clearly, the committee has stepped up to the plate and will continue to | :45:14. | :45:19. | |
do so. We seem to be staggering from one crisis to another. Hardly a week | :45:20. | :45:23. | |
passes but some other revelation is brought to our attention. Is that | :45:24. | :45:29. | |
what it looks like to you? Yes, that is the reason I pointed out the | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
context for transforming care. It is causing many issues in the system. | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
There are basic initiatives that can be taken that have been counted, | :45:40. | :45:44. | |
recruitment, the fact we have an ageing infrastructure, looking at | :45:45. | :45:50. | |
the filtering system and the workforce planning. There are issues | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
that have been pointed up that can be actions to alleviate these | :45:55. | :45:59. | |
problems, we need a sense this will deliver better health outcomes for | :46:00. | :46:04. | |
all of the communities and we didn't see that. Stay with us. Let's bring | :46:05. | :46:14. | |
in today's guest commentators. Professor Deirdre Heenan from the | :46:15. | :46:17. | |
University of Ulster and Jim Flanagan from the Ballymena | :46:18. | :46:23. | |
Guardian. Is it not being rolled out in the way that was envisaged? We | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
are conflating two issues, the information from the Northern trust | :46:29. | :46:33. | |
is alarming and there is no two ways around that. That is information | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
that points to the fact we do need a radical transformation of health and | :46:39. | :46:41. | |
social care and that is what the vision is around transforming care. | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
That is why transforming your care said incremental changes will not | :46:47. | :46:53. | |
do. We need a radical overhaul. This dates back to 2008, it is worrying | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
and the minister should be commended because he sent in the turnaround | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
team when he became aware of the issues and his statement is detailed | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
and Frank. He is trying to change a culture that is about moving to more | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
transparency and accountability, nothing is being swept under the | :47:13. | :47:16. | |
carpet. He says there are a number of issues and I am dealing with the | :47:17. | :47:22. | |
issues. It was a bizarre interview with ahead of the trust to set I | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
don't know what happened or how we got to this stage. He did not seem | :47:27. | :47:32. | |
to have any answers. He talked about the culture in the health and social | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
care system, transforming your care is coming along because it says the | :47:37. | :47:40. | |
system is under unprecedented challenges, an ageing population, | :47:41. | :47:45. | |
growing population set against a backdrop financial constraints. It | :47:46. | :47:50. | |
looks like the safety net isn't there. It is the cart before the | :47:51. | :47:56. | |
horse because while it works in principle, all of the other bits of | :47:57. | :48:00. | |
the jigsaw are not in place. There aren't enough minor injuries units | :48:01. | :48:06. | |
or the proper GP care to take their instead of and E. The beds are being | :48:07. | :48:16. | |
closed in hospitals. In context, we are spending ?10 million a day on | :48:17. | :48:21. | |
health and social care. We have 100,000 users a day. It is a complex | :48:22. | :48:28. | |
system and you are trying to systematically change a system | :48:29. | :48:33. | |
that's been in places 1948. It is not easy or short-term. And if you | :48:34. | :48:38. | |
look around at the successes under transforming your care, you will see | :48:39. | :48:43. | |
the developer of primary-care hubs. They are delivering the things you | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
are talking about. They are there to ensure the focus is on primary care, | :48:48. | :48:52. | |
the people are not coming to A because there's no all Terlizzi. The | :48:53. | :48:59. | |
pressure point is at a and he. It will be slow, complex but but most | :49:00. | :49:02. | |
importantly it needs political support. We don't need knee jerk | :49:03. | :49:11. | |
reactions. Jim, fortuitous we have you here today. This latest | :49:12. | :49:17. | |
development is at the heart of your patch. What is the reaction in | :49:18. | :49:22. | |
Ballymena and North Antrim to the latest development? What we heard | :49:23. | :49:28. | |
from the minister is a devastating account of failure of management and | :49:29. | :49:33. | |
Edwin Poots is to be commended for his openness. He is brushing things | :49:34. | :49:40. | |
from under the carpet but more potently trying to do something | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
about it. There is this line in his statement talking about clinical | :49:45. | :49:49. | |
staff not being properly supported or engaged and to me that is an | :49:50. | :49:53. | |
indictment of the regime hitherto but the most important thing is what | :49:54. | :49:59. | |
is being done. There is a root and branch review. X-rays are being | :50:00. | :50:06. | |
reviewed and we need to be careful because you are talking about | :50:07. | :50:10. | |
people's lives and families. We have not heard the end of it yet. Lawyers | :50:11. | :50:17. | |
were being gauged a lot in the detail in a statement. Both of you | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
take the lead minister should be commended for openness but the other | :50:22. | :50:25. | |
way of looking at it is this is a man who is being open about the | :50:26. | :50:30. | |
problems he has put aside it over. He is not across his brief. To be | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
fair, many of these problems he inherited and health is not an easy | :50:36. | :50:38. | |
portfolio and previous ministers said there isn't a problem or there | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
is a problem but it's too difficult to deal with. His party was a | :50:43. | :50:48. | |
critical of his predecessor who said he needed to get his finger out to | :50:49. | :50:54. | |
sort it out. They haven't sorted it out. To be fair, he said there is an | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
issue, she brought in a review team, he set out a long-term vision | :51:00. | :51:04. | |
because what he was clear about is incremental change will not deal | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
with the issues. We are repeatedly seeing issues because the way we | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
deliver health and social care is not suitable for the challenge is | :51:14. | :51:21. | |
being presented. What do you make of what the minister needs is no knee | :51:22. | :51:26. | |
jerk reactions and proper political support to get us through? Is that | :51:27. | :51:31. | |
likely to happen? The minister needs to lead through the process and part | :51:32. | :51:37. | |
of his leadership will require that the vision that is transforming your | :51:38. | :51:40. | |
care, that everybody has brought into, has a very clear outcome | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
framework and it doesn't have a strategic outcome to date. That is | :51:46. | :51:50. | |
missing and that is why we are staggering from crisis to crisis. | :51:51. | :51:55. | |
How can transforming your care assist in terms of enablement, | :51:56. | :52:01. | |
assisting in terms of emergency care departments, there are real | :52:02. | :52:03. | |
questions of the need to be answered. By showing the leadership | :52:04. | :52:09. | |
which was his vision in transforming your care, let's see the outcomes, | :52:10. | :52:13. | |
give the public a sense of confidence that this can deliver | :52:14. | :52:19. | |
what it has set out to do. There is an outcome framework and it is | :52:20. | :52:24. | |
clear, it is multidimensional, multilayered and qualitative, the | :52:25. | :52:29. | |
number of people now receiving personalised care packages, the | :52:30. | :52:31. | |
number getting care in the community, before transforming your | :52:32. | :52:37. | |
care, 60% of care was in hospitals, 40% in the community, we have | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
reversed those figures and it's a huge change with community mental | :52:42. | :52:47. | |
health teams delivering what people want in their community. We could | :52:48. | :52:50. | |
continue long into the afternoon but thank you. The leader of the Green | :52:51. | :52:57. | |
Party in Northern Ireland has called for greater transparency when it | :52:58. | :53:00. | |
comes to political donations. Stephen Agnew says all parties | :53:01. | :53:02. | |
should make donations public. Northern Ireland is the only area of | :53:03. | :53:05. | |
the UK where political donations remain secret. The MLA for North | :53:06. | :53:08. | |
Down was speaking at his party's annual conference - and our | :53:09. | :53:11. | |
Political Reporter, Stephen Walker, was there. | :53:12. | :53:18. | |
In the urban heart of East Belfast, a touch of green. Party members came | :53:19. | :53:25. | |
to the Newtownards Road for the annual get-together. Green party | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
members have come to discuss and debate issues like the environment, | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
education and the economy, subjects they hope will chime with the | :53:34. | :53:40. | |
electorate. There are only two councillors across Northern | :53:41. | :53:42. | |
Ireland, activists hope after the May elections that number will | :53:43. | :53:48. | |
automatically increase. Ross Brown is hoping for a council seat and is | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
the parties European candidate. In his youth he was a Unionist, he did | :53:54. | :54:00. | |
work experience with the DUP and school he talked -- topped the poll | :54:01. | :54:06. | |
as a DUP candidate. At that time when I was younger I would have been | :54:07. | :54:14. | |
a flag-waving unionist. Are you still Unionist? I don't really care | :54:15. | :54:21. | |
on the issue of the union. The only union I'm concerned about is the | :54:22. | :54:25. | |
European Union. As well as the economy and education, the | :54:26. | :54:30. | |
conference also discussed equality. We are seeing the growth of a | :54:31. | :54:33. | |
political class but it isn't bringing people along with them. We | :54:34. | :54:41. | |
are not sing ethnic minorities included, young people, disabled | :54:42. | :54:46. | |
people. It is the same people with the same conversations for the same | :54:47. | :54:51. | |
reasons and we need to reform. 15 council candidates have been chosen | :54:52. | :54:56. | |
by the party, the youngest is 19-year-old. Why is she standing for | :54:57. | :55:02. | |
the Greens? They are more progressive and a party for the | :55:03. | :55:08. | |
future rather than not popular with young people. The sole MLA Stephen | :55:09. | :55:15. | |
Agnew talked about political donations. He thinks Northern | :55:16. | :55:19. | |
Ireland has to change. The Green party is the only party that | :55:20. | :55:24. | |
publishes its donations over ?500 or though we are not required to. We | :55:25. | :55:30. | |
want other parties to step forward, other parties to deliver | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
transparency because we need faith in politics. The Greens occupy a | :55:35. | :55:38. | |
small foothold on the political landscape but in two months time we | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
will discover if their ideals have wider appeal. | :55:43. | :55:44. | |
Stephen Walker reporting from this weekend's Green Party conference in | :55:45. | :55:46. | |
Belfast. Deirdre Heenan and Jim Flanagan. A quick word about | :55:47. | :55:53. | |
transparency. It has been running for a long time. There is history in | :55:54. | :55:59. | |
Northern Ireland for good reason is that it is difficult to be totally | :56:00. | :56:03. | |
open but we are moved -- we are moving on. What about the Green | :56:04. | :56:09. | |
party position in Northern Ireland, one MLA, two councillors, 15 | :56:10. | :56:16. | |
running? They deserve credit for ploughing a lone furrow. The | :56:17. | :56:23. | |
Democratic Unionist party is fielding 13 in Ballymena alone. It | :56:24. | :56:27. | |
gives you a sense of scale and the uphill battle but they fight their | :56:28. | :56:32. | |
corner well. Stephen Agnew has formed well. A word about capturing | :56:33. | :56:38. | |
the youth vote. It is quite right and where they should be looking to | :56:39. | :56:44. | |
find votes. In schools and the post primary curriculum, the bar at is a | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
key issue. And I agreed the Green party have able performers, it is | :56:50. | :56:55. | |
difficult to get space in politics but they are to be admired and have | :56:56. | :56:59. | |
performed well. Let's pause for a moment and take a look back at the | :57:00. | :57:10. | |
political week in sixty seconds. Gerry Adams told a solicitor to | :57:11. | :57:13. | |
contact police to see if they want to interview him about the murder of | :57:14. | :57:22. | |
Jean McConville. The comments led to questions on Stormont. | :57:23. | :57:30. | |
Can you tell the house redesignated as a nationalist? | :57:31. | :57:33. | |
Should the come to Belfast? Some say no. | :57:34. | :57:38. | |
You have turned around and said spiritual leader should not come to | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
this city, he should go about the border whether or Roman Catholics. | :57:43. | :57:51. | |
He is a man of big faith, he wants to reach out. | :57:52. | :57:52. | |
At the moment. to reach out. | :57:53. | :58:01. | |
but things can change. Rhyme and reason, one MLA went all | :58:02. | :58:02. | |
poetic. Have you got the money to fund the | :58:03. | :58:06. | |
expression or will you let it float away in another depression? A | :58:07. | :58:14. | |
rhyming couplet from David McNarry ending that look back from Stephen | :58:15. | :58:25. | |
Walker. Belfast City Council debates the | :58:26. | :58:28. | |
apparently vexed issue of whether or not an invitation should be extended | :58:29. | :58:32. | |
to the Pope on Tuesday? The battle lines have been drawn. Jim Rogers | :58:33. | :58:39. | |
dug a hole and kept digging. It is depressing but also quite amusing. | :58:40. | :58:44. | |
At any given point, we seem to revert to type. We can't move on. | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
What was the problem saying, of course, if the Pope was to visit, he | :58:49. | :58:54. | |
will be welcome. And that is what the Ulster Unionist party said in a | :58:55. | :59:00. | |
second statement. He seemed to be out of step. He did and the party | :59:01. | :59:06. | |
was quick to come in on it. It is a free country and to ever wants to | :59:07. | :59:13. | |
come here can come. There are issues around the visit that need to be | :59:14. | :59:16. | |
taken into consideration but why not? Are you expecting smoke? Fire | :59:17. | :59:26. | |
and brimstone? I wouldn't have thought so. They will be more | :59:27. | :59:31. | |
measured. We will see. Thank you both. That's it | :59:32. | :59:32. | |
boundaries. Sorry, run out of time. Thanks very much indeed. Andrew, | :59:33. | :59:34. | |
back to you. Now let's get more from our | :59:35. | :59:48. | |
political panel. If the BNP finished? They were never | :59:49. | :59:53. | |
spectacularly successful to begin with but one of my childhood | :59:54. | :59:56. | |
memories was a huge fuss in London about the fact that they won a few | :59:57. | :00:00. | |
council seat on the Isle of dogs back in 1993. That was enough to | :00:01. | :00:03. | |
cause a panic. As if they are falling from a great tit and I think | :00:04. | :00:06. | |
the big difference with the National front in France is that they are | :00:07. | :00:10. | |
building on decades of successful that they finished second in the | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
presence of elections in 2002, I think. And, even in the 60s, they | :00:15. | :00:20. | |
were versions of their politics. So they are building on a lot whereas | :00:21. | :00:23. | |
the BNP are working with incredibly few raw materials in this country. | :00:24. | :00:32. | |
It is interesting that the BNP does seem to be in decline in terms of | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
its membership and financially, but in France, the far right party, not | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
as far right as the BNP, but pretty far right, will probably do well in | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
the second round of the French local elections. You could say the same | :00:48. | :00:55. | |
about Golden Dawn in Greece. Parties prosper when the picture is | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
pre-rolled for them. If mainstream parties talk endlessly about | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
immigration, saying you cannot get a council house because it has gone to | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
an immigrant instead of saying it is because there are not enough council | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
houses, that creates the conditions in which the far right can thrive. | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
We are lucky that all the members of the BNP fell out with each other. As | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
extreme members of the far right and left do. You can see that with the | :01:20. | :01:26. | |
comedian in France, he has got a lot of support from people on the left | :01:27. | :01:34. | |
as well. I asked Simon Derby was here victim of a pincer movement | :01:35. | :01:40. | |
that UKIP were taken away voters and EDL has captured the Street protest. | :01:41. | :01:50. | |
Yes, and Giles still not mention that the Labour Party has got its | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
act together. They got the act together in Dagenham. Margaret Hodge | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
and Jon Cruddas did a very good job. I think UKIP would say, not a racist | :02:00. | :02:05. | |
party but they are picking up votes from people who would once have | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
voted BNP. But it is interesting the difference between Britain and | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
France. Why is it that the Front Nationale came second in 2002 when | :02:17. | :02:23. | |
they are not far right? I think they were on a five-year cycle because | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
the next election was 2007. 2002 they came second when Jean-Marie Le | :02:30. | :02:38. | |
Pen came second. They are not as far right as the BNP. Marine has put | :02:39. | :02:49. | |
them -- cleaned them up a bit. Diplomatically there is a much | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
harder vote which spreads further across the electorate in France than | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
there is in this country. This is a much more tolerant country. If | :02:58. | :03:11. | |
Marine Le Pen does well today, she will not win that many because the | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
centre-right and centre-left will always gang up against terror in the | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
second round, but it sets the tone for the European elections. It does | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
and for the next French presidential election as well. I think what she's | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
doing masterfully is combining a far right politics with what you might | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
call a far left economic politics. She's not just picking up votes from | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
xenophobes, she is picking up votes from who feel victimised from | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
globalisation. They are people who would be voting for socialists but | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
are put off by the current president. That is what I do not | :03:50. | :03:52. | |
think the British far right parties have been able to do. You sort Simon | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
Derby try to tell you that the BNP are not far right party. I think he | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
was going to say if you look at issues of protectionism, standing up | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
against globalisation, they are quite statist. That is where the | :04:06. | :04:12. | |
phrase National Socialist comes from. That is why a little bit of | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
electoral success is often a killer for far right parties. They get a | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
few council seats and then they are rubbish. They are not getting | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
people's bins collected so they become part of the system that | :04:25. | :04:27. | |
people were voting against in the first place. Lets go on to the | :04:28. | :04:34. | |
Labour Party. If you are a Labour Party supporter and you want to be | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
cheered up, you pick up the Sunday Times where you see a poll where the | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
leader is up to seven points. If you are Tory Lib Dem and you want to be | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
cheered up, you pick up the Observer, the left-wing paper, where | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
the Labour leader is still 1%. I have read in the paper that there is | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
quite a lot of of the record briefings going on at the top of the | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
Labour Party. Give us a sense of the mood. Clearly, they are unsettled. | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
One pol looks OK but there has been a run of polls where there is a lead | :05:08. | :05:17. | |
over the Tories which is closing. There are worrying number of people | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
who are what are called the 35s and they are people who thought all the | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
Labour Party needs to do is sit still because there are a number of | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
Liberal Democrat voters who hate the coalition. Because the Conservatives | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
did not get through the boundary changes they needed to win, we can | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
sit tight and it will all be fine. What a few wise old heads are | :05:41. | :05:46. | |
concerned about is they feel this has a feel of 1987 about it when the | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
Labour Party was united. They had a very good leader. The leader was | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
impressive, the party was united and then what happened? They met the | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
British people and an election. The British people said, terribly sorry, | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
you are not occupying the party political territory where we will | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
vote for you. There are some people from the Blair era who say it feels | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
a bit complacent and there may be a bit of a shock when they meet the | :06:14. | :06:20. | |
voters. We talk about people being unsettled but Ed Miliband is not | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
unsettled. His defining characteristic is you might call it | :06:25. | :06:27. | |
steadiness or you might call it a lack of agility. He could not | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
respond to the pension stuff in the budget which was thrown at him. But | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
he's very good at separating the signal from the noise. They may | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
think this will all change in me. The Tories may be on the back foot | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
after the European elections. He has the ability to set the political | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
weather. He did it with the price freeze. There is no doubt that Mr | :06:49. | :06:55. | |
Davey would not be referring these energy companies to the competition | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
authorities if it had not been for that speech by the Labour leader. | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
And we read today he has come up with another policy which will be | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
attention grabbing to cut student tuition fees. It is easy to forget | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
that before he announced the price freeze he was in as much vertical | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
trouble as he is now. I think the Labour poll lead will expand up to | :07:17. | :07:23. | |
five or 6% by the summer, assuming the Tories do badly. The question | :07:24. | :07:30. | |
is, is five or 6% enough? Nick through the analogy with 1987. This | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
reminds me of the Conservatives in 2009/10. You have a steadily sinking | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
poll lead, differences in what campaign they should be running and | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
personal animosity behind the scenes. It led to them throwing away | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
an election which seemed to be winnable. There is an important | :07:49. | :07:55. | |
difference with the 1980s which was because you did not know when the | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
election would be. Will it be in 87 or 88? They do not need to make up | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
their mind until next year. What they are telling the pollsters now, | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
we do not like this government because of course, you do not like | :08:09. | :08:11. | |
the government. But next January or February they will be making up | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
their minds. Is there a lot of animosity among the leading Labour | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
figures behind-the-scenes? It must be personal or tactical because | :08:23. | :08:25. | |
there are not big ideological differences between them, is there? | :08:26. | :08:32. | |
Yes and no. What is striking is how little support Miliband gets from | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
the shadow cabinet. He does not have outriders. That has been a | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
continuous theme. Said he feels he is on his own? That they feel they | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
do not get support from him. There was a column by Jenni Russell saying | :08:47. | :08:54. | |
he is distant and detached. And Andrew Walmsley touched on this in | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
the Observer. One of the divisions is Ed versus Ed. There is a terrible | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
structural problem between those two. It is a real problem. Ed | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
Miliband believes Ed Balls has not done enough to get economic red | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
ability. Ed Balls believes Ed Miliband is making airy fairy | :09:15. | :09:17. | |
speeches and it will not cut with the electorate. Neither Mr Cameron | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
nor Mr Miller band took part in the debate which happened earlier this | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
week between the Lib Dems and UKIP. We have got another one coming up on | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
the BBC on Wednesday night. Let's remind ourselves of what happened in | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
last week's debate. I will ask Nick to open the batting. | :09:38. | :09:45. | |
We are better off in Europe... Frankly not working any more. A | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
referendum on Europe. I agree with you. I agree with you. If you can | :09:52. | :09:58. | |
read the small print. Pull up the drawbridge, pool drawbridge up... We | :09:59. | :10:08. | |
have 485 million people... It is simply not true! Not true. Not true. | :10:09. | :10:14. | |
Not true. Identical with Nick. I don't agree with Nick. Based on | :10:15. | :10:22. | |
facts, facts, the facts, facts, the facts... Thank God we did not listen | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
to you. The food is getting better here. Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. You | :10:28. | :10:35. | |
have never had a proper job. Great not little England. Good night. | :10:36. | :10:43. | |
I think it is seven o'clock BBC Two. Helen, what was the outcome of that | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
and how do we mark our card for this week? It was not a great time for | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
pundits. Everybody called the debate for Nick and then they said | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
actually, we think it has gone the other way. Consensus emerged later | :10:58. | :11:05. | |
on that Nick Clegg made a difficult argument. I think the most important | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
thing Nigel Farage said was he distinguished out the immigration | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
policy by saying we're not just closing day over, we want people to | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
come, we just do not want mass EU immigration. That is an important | :11:18. | :11:20. | |
thing for him to say to get away from the echoes of the far right. I | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
suspect Nick Clegg will not ask us to read the small print. That was 11 | :11:26. | :11:33. | |
turn he took. It compounded his reputation for being sneaky. I | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
slightly disagree about the pundits. I say this as someone who thought | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
far it would win. -- Nigel Farage would win. The fact that the public | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
disagree with you and the public favoured Nigel Farage does not mean | :11:49. | :11:55. | |
the public were wrong. The question is, who is going to tune in for the | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
second one? What is the answer to that? Phil Collins argument is a man | :12:01. | :12:07. | |
who is on 8% is fantastic. It is a binary choice in this debate. | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
Clearly they need to brush up on opposite areas. Nigel Farage needs | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
to brush up on facts and Nick Clegg needs to brush up on the motions | :12:17. | :12:19. | |
because he did not connect very well. Where Nick Clegg may go after | :12:20. | :12:25. | |
Nigel Farage is when the -- when he said the EU has blood on its hands | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
with Ukraine. He then came back to talk about the vanity of EU foreign | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
policy and said European Union had made what was going on in Syria | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
worse. It is one thing to say I do not think the UK should be part of | :12:39. | :12:41. | |
the joint European foreign policy, it is part of another thing to say | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
that Europe which will act with or without the UK is responsible for | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
blood on the streets of Kiev and also responsible for exacerbating | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
the Civil War in Syria. Maybe an hour is too long for Nigel Farage's | :12:55. | :13:02. | |
shtick? That may be the case but Nick Clegg has precedence. He does | :13:03. | :13:05. | |
that show and he has had to deal with the worst thing with dealing | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
with what is thrown at him so he has honed his view consistently. We will | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
see what happens in part two. That's all for this week. The Daily | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
Politics is on BBC Two at lunchtime every day this week. I'll be here | :13:19. | :13:20. | |
next week at the every day this week. I'll be here | :13:21. | :13:23. | |
next week at the usual time of 11 o'clock. Remember if it's Sunday, | :13:24. | :13:25. | |
it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:26. | :13:32. |