14/04/2013 Sunday Politics Scotland


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Two leaders. Two legacies. But what exactly can Mrs Thatcher and Mr


Blair teach their parties today? As Maggie exits stage right, we


will ask Tory Chairman Grant Shapps whether his party can ever win


outright again. And after Tony Blair's warning that


Ed Miliband's Labour risks becoming a party of protest, not power, we


are joined by former Home Secretary How will history judge the battle


between Mrs Thatcher and the unions and what is their role in Britain


today? The TUC secretary and the former trade minister Digby Jones


go head-to-head. And on Sunday Politics Scotland: Is


the SNP's policy of no-nuclear weapons compatible with NATO's


nuclear stance? Has the First Minister's trip to


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1820 seconds


Do you accept that looking back, by 1979, the unions had got too big


for their boots and no matter who won the election, they would be


taken down? We can argue about the 1970s but it was Britain's most


equalled decade and what followed, you can draw up a direct line


between Margaret Thatcher's policies of demonising the unions,


but also deregulating the banks, privatising utilities, and selling


off council homes without replacing them, you can draw a direct line


between that and the mess we are living with today.


She did not answer the question. In 1979, this country was in such a


mess because of four or Fife and democratically elected people


decided on behalf of the whole nation -- at five. And Labour


Chancellor Denis Healey said, I will cut one penny off basic rate


income tax are four union leaders agreed to a �6 pay rise limit, so


who was running the country? What I find sad about these demonstrations


and a refusal to answer that question is that those who were


around at the time realised it was not Margaret Thatcher that brought


the unions into with proper place in society, it actually was Britain.


But because the average skilled working person in my home town of


Birmingham was told, you will join a union or you will not have a job


and if you were going to vote against what we want, we will beat


you up! That is no way to run a society and Britain knew that, so


it was the average person in the street food at the. Of -- in the


street that did that. Answer this with yes or no, it was


Margaret Thatcher right to introduce secret ballots for


industrial action? Unions are democratic organisations. Yes or


no? I would like to talk about what is happening now and not just in


the past. Unions are democratic organisations. Washy right? It is


members who will decide. -- was she right. There was strong support for


strikes, it is insulting to ordinary people to support -- to


suggest otherwise. Was she right? We are democratic organisations now


and we are not interested in looking at battles of the 1970s but


looking at the mess we have had because unions have been


marginalised and societies. We had great support for the public sector


pensions strike in 2011, two thirds of the public supported us,


something is very wrong in Britain today and diverting the debate on


to the 1970s will not help us sort out today. Clearly I have failed to


get your attitudes on this. The unions have clearly lost power


since 1979, Digby Jones, but the consequence has been there has been


a big move in this country from our share of wealth going to profits at


the expense of wages, wages have a small percentage of the GDP than


before, but companies are not spending these profits. If readers


were higher, the economy would do better, would it not? Statistically,


you are right. There is one great example where shareholders have


suffered at the expense of the workers and that is called bankers'


bonuses, they have had bonuses at the expense of pension funds and


you know I am right in that! Breeches, real wages have fallen


and that is one of the reasons we are still in recession -- wages.


do not think that is one of the reasons, because of the enhanced


profit retained in the business, they are not spending it because of


lack of confidence, a view of right. Francis is doing herself down


because if you look at a private sector, the assets of partnership


between good-quality unions and business is brilliant and is an


example for Europe. Go look at Rolls Royce, for example, the


unionised places -- look at. It will become attractive to capital


from the world, the issue is the public sector. Act we have not got


enough time. -- we have not. The majority of people believe the


balance of power is too much in the favour of employers and that


growing inequality we saw on the Thatcher and is increasing


massively again today is one of the important causes of the crash --


under Thatcher. There is too much power at the top and not enough for


ordinary people and we need a different economy to move forward,


even the Christian Democrats in Germany now accept that we just


need to rise and collective bargaining needs to spread, and I


think employers like Digby Jones he joined the union much in favour of


Bombardier staying open it must have joined us and argue for a


proper industrial policy for jobs and growth. And you for joining me.


Good morning and welcome back to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up


on the programme. NATO has suggested if Scotland


becomes a "new state," it would not be a member of the Military


Alliance, and would have to apply to join. The First Minister has


said he is certain a request for continued membership of NATO would


be accepted, despite his commitment to make Scotland nuclear-free.


We will be live in Washington, with a former White House Special


Assistant to President George W Bush and one-time chair of NATO's


Nuclear Policy Committee, the High Level Group.


And we have heard from the great and the good on Thatcher's legacy,


but how did living through the '80s affect people's lives? What was the


NATO and nukes. They go together like bread and butter, or should


that be chalk and cheese, depending on your political persuasion? Both


have seen action this weekend on Scottish soil. War games are being


played out off the Scottish coast, with NATO and other allied forces,


as part of a joint military warrior exercise. Meanwhile, Scrap Trident


demonstrators gathered in Glasgow yesterday, ahead of a planned anti-


nuclear protest at Faslane on Monday.


The First Minister has also been in the States, reassuring the


Americans that an independent Scotland would be a reliable


military partner, without nuclear weapons. We caught up with our


correspondent, Glenn Campbell, who has been following the story State-


side this week. As an independent country, Scotland


would have to establish itself internationally by taking up a seat


at the United Nations and a son -- and becoming an independent member


of the European Union and NATO. Alex Salmond stepped into the


international arena, visiting the United States this week, and he


presented himself as a Prime Minister in waiting. Rather than


taking part and the colourful Tartan Day Parade, he made the


second of three speeches on the future of Scotland. In Washington


he made former up -- he met former US Secretary of State Colin Powell


but did not get an appointment with anybody in the current


administration. He delivered a message to them by making the third


speech at the Brookings Institution on defence, to reassure Watson


turned -- Washington that an independent Scotland would be a


reliable partner in NATO, participating in the air and naval


defence of Europe, as a non nuclear member of this nuclear alliance.


Alex Salmond says it is possible and certain he believes that could


be negotiated between a point at which there is a yes vote in the


referendum and the point of independence, a year and a half


later. NATO has said if Scotland is regarded as a new state, it would


not be a member of NATO and that contrasts with Alex Salmond's


position. There is a warning, NATO says a definitive do for --


definitive determination and would have to be made by the 28 member


countries, they have not discussed it. Alex Salmond is hoping in the


event of independence, they would be more accommodating than that


statement would suggest. Let's cross now to Washington,


where we can talk to Franklin Miller. Franklin was a Special


Assistant to President George W Bush for four years and a Senior


Director for Defense Policy on the National Security Council. He has


also spent over two decades as a senior official in the Defense


Department and served for five years as the chair of NATO's


Nuclear Policy Committee, the High Level Group.


He could morning. -- good morning. We are hearing from our reporter,


what do you think of the SNP's plans to secure NATO membership but


remain free of nuclear weapons? first thing we have to establish as


the basic principle that NATO is a defensive alliance whose job is to


prevent aggression against member countries. And nuclear deterrence


is a critical element of NATO's policy, as endorsed most recently


twice in November 2010 at the Lisbon summit and made 2012 at the


Chicago so met by the leaders of the 28 NATO countries. -- a summit.


So the question is if the SNP believes nuclear deterrence is an


acceptable on principle. I have seen press reports that suggest the


SNP believe nuclear-weapons are illegal and should be banned and if


that is the case, that is inconsistent with the NATO position


that they are a critical part of the alliance defence component.


his article 5 of the alliance defence treaty, is it not? -- that


is. It is part of the agreement from the defence policy review as


agreed in 22nd May of a. Alex Salmond, in his speech to the


bricking -- to the Brookings Institute, and spoke about


continued membership of NATO, put thwart Robert son this week said


Scotland as an independent country would have to reapply -- Lord


Robertson. What do you think? think Lord Robertson is right that


an independent Scotland would have to reapply. So the first question


is, do they believe if an independent Scotland has not,


applying for an organisation like this seems not to be logical. If


the SNP does accept nuclear deterrence as a general principle,


a second question is, why would an independent separatist Scotland


force the UK deterrent out of Faslane, making it more difficult


for the UK to contribute to the nuclear alliance? So the alliance


believes it needs that deterrent, it could be removed from Scotland


or forced out, could there be a backlash from the United States?


think yes, because extending the nuclear umbrella by the United


States and the UK over the alliance requires that that our eyes to some


of the risk sharing and they should be no free good here -- that allies.


But an income -- but a -- but an independent Scotland would say, we


off-line with a nuclear umbrella but we are not taking part in that


risk or burden and we will complicate the deterrent by


expelling it from Faslane. But Alex Salmond pointed out we could have


American bases on Scottish soil and if they only had conventional


weapons, that would be West and burden-sharing, would the Americans


to accept that? -- a whisker? is interesting, but given the


current budgetary circumstances we faced, there would be no


establishing American bases in Scotland or anywhere else at this


time, so it is an empty offer a. theoretically, if there was a base


in Scotland, we believe nuclear weapons have been removed, cut the


Americans dictate what kind of weapons they could store? -- Could


the Americans. That would have to be worked out by the USA and the


Scottish government. The Independent Scottish government, if


that were to exist. BUSA cannot introduce nuclear weapons without


the consent of the host country -- and the USA. That brings us to the


issue of submarines on the West Coast of Scotland. The Americans


would not have to say if there was a nuclear missile on board, so if


you are part of NATO, you could have a nuclear missile on Scottish


territory and not know about it. do not think that is true. The


ballistic nuclear -- the ballistic missile submarines are distinct


warships and they do have nuclear missiles, so if an American nuclear


missile submarine came up the River Clyde, one would have to issue it


was carrying weapons. It is US policy either to confirm or deny


the presence, but it would be obvious what a nuclear missile


submarine would be carrying. What the Americans see that as an


acceptable part of risk and burden- sharing? I do not think so because


expelling the force, the Royal Navy, from the River Clyde, makes


Britain's role in protecting the alliance with its own nuclear


deterrent much more difficult and it complicate the situation where


the United Kingdom currently supplies part of the NATO nuclear


deterrent. Last week, the NATO generally -- Secretary General


congratulated the Royal Navy -- the Royal Navy on this latest deterrent


patrol, saying it was an important contribution to NATO's defence and


expelling it from the River Clyde would complicate the ability of the


UK to have that deterrent capability to protect the lines


that Scotland says it would like to join. -- the alliance. More weight


and Denmark have banned nuclear weapons, but they are key members


of the alliance, so how do you say the SNP's position is not logical,


but we have countries like Norway Expelling will do this for us from


the Clyde would expel the status quo. Others tried to expel a


nuclear weapons from Germany, a US nuclear weapons, and he was rounded


damage by the United States and NATO as saying that they were


shirking responsibility that they had assumed a long time ago, so it


is about today and not what was decided decades ago. Thank you.


Thank you for joining s from Washington DC. Thank you. With us


to talk about their parties' policies, we have Labour's Jim


Murphy and in Moray, the SNP's Angus Robertson.


Anger is, what you are proposing is not to a poll, remaining free of


nuclear weapons as Mr Salmond proposed this week, Mr Miller said


that this is illogical. He has the right to that point of view, but it


does not square the facts that Norway and Denmark are not


currently member-states of the NATO had to not have nuclear weapons on


their soil and have a policy that they do not want to have them on


their soil, and we need to look at the departure of nuclear-weapons


from Greece and Canada, so it is entirely consistent about wanting


to work together with neighbours and allies and we would do that as


a conventionally armed country, just as the overwhelming numbers of


Salem Fayyad Estates. And later in the East: is to work against


nuclear disarmament and Scotland can play its part in that.


-- NATO is for working against. Franklin Miller said that Norway


and Denmark had a consistent position, you were consistently


upsetting the applecart with this position, he said when it comes


down to it, you're not playing your part in the risk and burden-


sharing? I just mentioned the fact that both Canada and Greece which


had tactical nuclear weapons had them removed. That with the change


of the status quo. It was possible for them, it would be possible for


us. Scotland is in a very important geographical position in northern


Europe, the North Sea to the east, the Atlantic to the West, we need


to have proportional forces. The UK does not provide that in Scotland


at the moment, there is they owe conventional naval craft, there is


no maritime patrol craft. That is what neighbouring countries want us


to do, to remain within the NATO and work than a conventional basis.


It is important to work within NATO and our neighbours and friends.


Murphy, it is ironic that what the SNP is proposing is what a lot of


Labour people would like to see, a nuclear free Scotland but retaining


the safety of the NATO umbrella. The more we discuss this, the more


that we listen to Mr Miller in Washington, it is clear that the


SNP have not done their homework. We're trying to get out of a


military alliance in the UK and not meet the rules of the largest


military alliance which is NATO. This idea that there will be a


quick fix and an independent Scotland can rejoin NATO is funds


of will. On the rules, the facts are clear. You do not have to have


nuclear weapons on your soil, you have to have in principle and


practice, the collective security of the nuclear umbrella which the


SNP is playing with words, but they do not sign up to. The second is


about money, you have to pay the bills. Even the creator budget they


have come up with which nobody accepts, it doesn't meet the NATO


threshold. They will be knocking on a closed door if they are


independent, knocking on the doors of teenagers saying we will not


sign up the rules, he does not make sense. Not signing up to the rules?


I am delighted, we can read the transcript that he has accepted


that NATO member states do not have to host nuclear weapons. I am


surprised that is news to you. you can let me finish, thank you,


and if you look at the SNP budget for Defence and Security, 1.7 % of


GDP is the European NATO average. We have looked at what neighbours,


allies and friends do and we have worked out that we need to focus


efforts on maritime conventional defence, are due a strategic


position suggests this is the right thing to do. 80 % of people in


Scotland Stuart wants nuclear weapons, so Jim Murphy can choose


to disregard the opinions of the Scottish people. I am on the side


of the majority of the people of Scotland to want rid of Trident to


work with neighbours and friends and that is the way to go. He duet


had to read by transcript, anyone watching this programme will know


that NATO did not want bigger weapons. We enjoy comparing


Scotland with Norway. Enure fanciful budget of �2.5 billion,


Norway's spends about 4.5 on its defence. Let's compare like with


like. It makes no sense to leave the UK military, come out of the


British Army, the Royal Navy, the Royal Air Force. It makes sense


that we share that responsibility on these islands and the SNP knows


that their arguments doesn't add up in terms of leaving the UK military


and they are looking for another alliance. The only other allies to


stop fulfil the rules of criteria. They have not done their homework.


Mr Robertson, why can you not to be like Ireland and not be a NATO


member, not to join NATO? For the reasons I about light, we are in a


specific strategic geographical position and we need to live up to


our responsibilities for neighbours, allies and regions and dangerous


stability and providing for the appropriate commercial defence. We


had been looking at the Danish model and at 1.7 % of budgets and


we could provide a very comparative offering no to that with that NATO


alive. Of these countries did not live up to their responsibility,


they would be calling for their expulsion, but they are not, they


accept what they do working with neighbours and allies and that is


what Scotland will do, it is just a shame about Jim Murphy does regards


that use of the majority of people of Scotland to do that once a


nuclear weapons in our country. would you define nuclear free,


because if you have got its submarines are sailing up the River


Clyde, you do not know what will be on board, the American submarine


will lost any what is on board, there could be a nuclear missile


coming in to Scotland and you have a nice tea with their policy? By --


and you have an anti-nuclear policy. It is entirely workable policy we


should not confuse two things. There is a rite of passage on the


conventional law of the sea and the United Nations and there is the


agreement that you ask that they do not bring a nuclear-armed vessels


into the port. That is how it works with your weight, I June Rudd see


why it cannot work with Scotland. - - I do not see why it cannot work.


In the Sunday Herald's today, it was said Scotland B nuclear free is


unlikely to be a serious impediment to NATO membership. Wigan have the


conversation unilateralism first as a multilateralism. World events


show that decisions will be taken in the next few years and the


decision on the defence will sort us out for decades to come. You can


give up a nuclear weapons, by yourself, if you can with certainty


predict what the next 50 years were provided terms of world events.


Nobody knows what it will look like in the next 50 years, and it is


irresponsible to be unilateralist. The UK, the Chinese, the Russians,


the French, all of those countries together, lets negotiated get rid


of weapons that way. But with North Korea, Iran, tried to get to


nuclear-weapons, a nuclear weapons arms race in beat Middle-East, it


makes no sense Forester give up their nuclear capability. It is a


mystery as to what Labour actually want. The New Statesman called the


silence from July Lamont deafening. What does she want? The Labour


Party, all of us, we are nutty unilateralist party. We do not


believe in unilaterally giving up nuclear. It defends his reserve to


the House of Commons along with many important issues. Invite us


all on to the programme, the Labour Party, we believe in nuclear


disarmament in a difficult world that is volatile, with all of these


countries have tried to acquire a capability. The idea of the UK


giving up this capability does not make much sense, but the


conversation, we asked everyone, the more questions you ask, be


fewer answers you get. Why would you give up membership of the


fourth largest military in the world in terms of defence spending?


Despite the cuts come up why would you give up the most capable


European nation for Defence, why throw that all away on an offer at


a risk and a one-way bet that they have their answers, on why he would


leave the British Army, the Royal Navy and everything behind. Making


that point about to one LUNT, but Mr Murphy saying that the Labour


Party are not in favour of unilateral disarmament. That will


come to a lot of disappointments to people in the Labour Party who wish


that it was. They endorse their position that they would prefer to


get rid of nuclear-weapons. We do not even in Scotland let's use


their money for conventional defence. Week in spent or a


conventional defence with independence less than in the UK at


get rid of nuclear-weapons which is a good deal to me. On rescanned


burden-sharing, Mr Salmond said that he was keen to see American


bases here, but John well so, the SNP MSP has spoken out about this


move, say because lots of attack in Syria or hold with the weapons. --


John Wilson. He has been consistent with his position in conference


last year when he opposed the policy I put to him. It said we


were in favour of base sharing its logistics training, so it is up to


a sovereign Scottish government to make the appropriate arrangements


if that is ever proposed, but the SNP is in favour of this, the


conference has passed his policy. Far Riley, Jim Murphy, we are


speaking about the Labour position on Trident, a very prominent


Belaubre of your party, Lord Brown, a former Defence Secretary, he is


sceptical about this too. He is looking to see if we can maintain a


military and spilt your capability at a lower cost which is sensible


to look at. In a complicated world of many powerful nations at stages


countries, it takes more than passing a resolution at a


conference to create a reality. The fact that you cannot walk into two


as it would be needed state, Paul Ince took five years. -- walked


into NATO as an independent state. We are heading to London for the


news, see you in a moment. The London School of Economics has


accused the BBC of endangering its dubious by sending ecru with a bump


to the North Korea had to film an undercover documentary. The London


School said that they were not old enough to give informed consent and


it could give serious damage to the school of for academic integrity.


The BBC refutes this and says the programme will go ahead.


The Panorama team fold under cover for eight days last month,


travelling on a state organised tour, but the LSE claims that by


posing as students, they put the entire group in danger. The LSE has


accused the BBC of using lies and deception from the outset. It says


it had no prior knowledge of this trip and about the BBC is unwilling


to take responsibility for endangering its students. The BBC


says the students were told twice a day journalist would be travelling


with thermal, and what about the risk of arrest and detention. But


the journalist John Sweeney acknowledges that they were not


told that there was an undercover teams of three phoning a high-


profile documentary. We told them enough but not enough to put them


in parallel something went bad. Nothing went bad, we got away with


it. It was preposterous, but the students helped us and the majority


of students are very happy for this to go ahead. As an LSE graduate I


find it extraordinary that an institution that believes in free


thought should call for a documentary not to be aired.


has refused the request to withdraw The US Secretary of State, John


Kerry, is visiting Tokyo in his latest attempt to build pressure on


North Korea. As Mr Kerry arrived, Japan said the two countries should


send a strong message to North Korea to give up its nuclear


weapons programmes. Anti-missile systems have been stationed around


Tokyo, in anticipation of a North Korean missile launch.


Details have been published of the funeral service for Lady Thatcher,


to be held at St Paul's Cathedral on Wednesday. As Lady Thatcher


requested, the service will include music by English composers, and


will contain some of her favourite hymns, reflecting both her


patriotism and her upbringing as a Methodist.


Firefighters have managed to contain life by it -- a fire at a


zoo in west London. The fire started in the tropical house,


firefighters rescued two crocodiles and cannot have but some animals


and cannot have but some animals and cannot have but some animals


have died. -- and an otter. That is all for now.


Good afternoon. Firefighters have been tackling a blaze at a zoo in


West Lothian. The fire is now thought to be under control, but


the number of animals killed is still being assessed. Our reporter,


Catriona Renton, is there. You can see the boat out house


behind me, all the animals in the reptile house perished. A couple of


crocodiles outside have been rescued, the moment it is not clear


how many animals have died. -- at the moment. The zoo keeper is


trying to see if any animals are still hiding. The me a cats


chocolate spike and they have a tunnel to get outside. -- meercats.


The reason for the fire is not yet known and the owners are devastated


by what has happened. The Scottish Parliament is to


debate Baroness Thatcher's legacy, on the day of her funeral. The


joint Green-Independent group have set aside their allotted time at


Holyrood for the debate. The Scottish Conservatives have


criticised the timing, saying it is offensive. Pine for the weather now.


It will stay windy, a strong southerly wind, they should be some


bright weather coming through and there could be highs of 15 a 16


degrees. In the sunshine, it will be quite pleasant. The risk of


severe gales across the Hebrides. At times this week, it has felt


like being back in the 1980s. The leadership skills, policies and the


legacy of Margaret Thatcher have all been fiercely debated. The


confrontations will continue this week. Scottish Conservatives are


angry the Greens are planning to hold a Holyrood debate on the Iron


Lady the same day as her funeral. But what impact did living through


the '80s have on people's day-to- day lives? Craig Hutchison has been


talking to some of Thatcher's Children. Him in we, in Scotland, -


- a week. This Scottish miracle did not


happen by accident. A Margaret Thatcher wanted a harmonious


relationship with Scotland but there was all too often discord --


Margaret Thatcher. This mining museum is all that is left here,


Janet is the widow of a minor and the daughter of a minor. -- miner.


Broke and homes, families broken up, brothers and sisters that do not


speak to each other. My youngest is seven and she realises now what we


went through. But some people like that Director of the National


Mining Museum in Scotland took inspiration from Margaret Thatcher.


Be in born into a world where she was in power was incredibly


significant because as a woman, there were no barriers, I could


achieve what I wanted and it was down to hard work. She had an


impressive work ethic and that is one of her greatest legacies.


Thatcher is renowned for privatising several state owned


industries and revolutionising the financial sector, including here in


Scotland. In 1966, Brian Johnson started work for an investment fund


management firm in Edinburgh and he remains with them today.


privatisation introduced a new range of people into the market --


privatisation. A lot of money came into the market from overseas


investors, so the game changed from a cosy club into an international


financial operation. She was transformational not just personal


loan -- not just personally but to the country, and without her, I do


not know what would have happened. Celebrations in September 1977,


after the devolution referendum. The initial impact when she came


into power or she said there would be no constitutional change in


Scotland and I was disappointed by that. I saw what she was doing to


heavy industry, she was decimating it and putting people on the dole


and cutting back on social policy, I thought, this is not a Scot and I


want to the event and we have to control this woman and not just


take it. This coming week will be a chance to mourn a political icon


for some, but the death of Margaret that has only opened up winced for


others. We will visit the cemetery and the miners' Museum and be


together, that is the week we will spend Wednesday, are not watching


the television. -- is -- that is the way that.


We have two guests in our Edinburgh studio. The first is Jim Gallagher.


Jim is a research fellow at Nuffield College in Oxford. He has


also advised the UK government on devolution strategy and was closely


involved in the Calman Commission. His new book, Scotland's Choices,


is due out next week. And we also have another writer and former


Scottish Conservative MSP, Brian Monteith. He is also a PR


consultant and policy director for Thinkscotland.org.


Your book, it is out this week are not looking ahead to the referendum.


We have had all week that Margaret Thatcher was the midwife of the


Scottish Parliament and perhaps of independence, depending how the


referendum goes. My personal view is that it probably would have


happened anyway, some kind of democratic control over Scottish


institutions in Scotland, but there is no doubt that Margaret Thatcher


provided the political opportunity for many to see that devolution was


the answer. You have advised Scottish governments, how much of


her policies have filtered through today? Ken Clarke was speaking this


week that the consensus now is of a market economy with a social


conscience. There is no doubt she shifted to UK political discourse


to the right and the big acknowledgement of that was Tony


Blair in 1997 saying that there were things a new Labour government


would bring the Indian on the back of the Thatcher era. There were


things that were not going to change, notably all the


privatisations, and that has set a rebalancing of the UK government.


Thatcher's legacy, I suppose it depended if you lived in Balzers


and all West Lothian? A do not think that is true. -- in Basildon.


The problem for the Conservatives was that in regard to England, it


came later in Scotland, so there were difficulties to get any


electoral bounced from it. But she had over 700,000 Scottish people


voting for her in predilections. She laughed about 25% of the


Scottish electorate -- and she laughed. The idea she ruined the


Conservative Party in Scotland is a myth. Many people had a council


house they rented and that they were able to buy. So Scottish


people embraced many of her policies but they found it


difficult to embrace the lady herself. The debate this week has


often been that change was needed and perhaps was coming, did the de-


industrialisation have to be so rapid with nothing to replace a


lost industries? Martin a miss said she was as a necessary Prime


Minister and that is correct. Other prime ministers had avoided hard


choices in the 1970s and because Scotland was so desperately reliant


on heavy industry, there was so much more to do. So we needed more


Thatcherism, we needed Scottish privatisations and more


deregulation, and there was in resistance to that even in the


Scottish Conservative Party and that made it difficult. The truth


is that what the Scottish economy needed was Margaret Thatcher to


beat the Scottish Secretary of State, but she had her hands tied


with more at -- to be. The SNP and Thatcher pursuing policies such as


low corporation tax, could we have independence, but in the style of


Bacher? Plenty of people in the SNP are on the right. -- in the style


of Margaret Thatcher. The SNP would say it is a left-of-centre party.


But much of her inheritance has take -- has been taken up by the


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