14/04/2013 Sunday Politics Scotland


14/04/2013

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Two leaders. Two legacies. But what exactly can Mrs Thatcher and Mr

:00:38.:00:44.

Blair teach their parties today? As Maggie exits stage right, we

:00:44.:00:47.

will ask Tory Chairman Grant Shapps whether his party can ever win

:00:47.:00:53.

outright again. And after Tony Blair's warning that

:00:53.:00:56.

Ed Miliband's Labour risks becoming a party of protest, not power, we

:00:56.:01:06.
:01:06.:01:07.

are joined by former Home Secretary How will history judge the battle

:01:07.:01:11.

between Mrs Thatcher and the unions and what is their role in Britain

:01:11.:01:16.

today? The TUC secretary and the former trade minister Digby Jones

:01:16.:01:18.

go head-to-head. And on Sunday Politics Scotland: Is

:01:18.:01:21.

the SNP's policy of no-nuclear weapons compatible with NATO's

:01:21.:01:23.

nuclear stance? Has the First Minister's trip to

:01:23.:01:33.
:01:33.:01:33.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1820 seconds

:01:33.:31:53.

Do you accept that looking back, by 1979, the unions had got too big

:31:54.:31:57.

for their boots and no matter who won the election, they would be

:31:57.:32:03.

taken down? We can argue about the 1970s but it was Britain's most

:32:03.:32:08.

equalled decade and what followed, you can draw up a direct line

:32:08.:32:13.

between Margaret Thatcher's policies of demonising the unions,

:32:13.:32:19.

but also deregulating the banks, privatising utilities, and selling

:32:19.:32:25.

off council homes without replacing them, you can draw a direct line

:32:25.:32:32.

between that and the mess we are living with today.

:32:32.:32:39.

She did not answer the question. In 1979, this country was in such a

:32:39.:32:42.

mess because of four or Fife and democratically elected people

:32:42.:32:49.

decided on behalf of the whole nation -- at five. And Labour

:32:49.:32:55.

Chancellor Denis Healey said, I will cut one penny off basic rate

:32:55.:33:00.

income tax are four union leaders agreed to a �6 pay rise limit, so

:33:00.:33:06.

who was running the country? What I find sad about these demonstrations

:33:06.:33:10.

and a refusal to answer that question is that those who were

:33:10.:33:14.

around at the time realised it was not Margaret Thatcher that brought

:33:14.:33:20.

the unions into with proper place in society, it actually was Britain.

:33:20.:33:25.

But because the average skilled working person in my home town of

:33:25.:33:29.

Birmingham was told, you will join a union or you will not have a job

:33:29.:33:33.

and if you were going to vote against what we want, we will beat

:33:33.:33:38.

you up! That is no way to run a society and Britain knew that, so

:33:38.:33:45.

it was the average person in the street food at the. Of -- in the

:33:45.:33:51.

street that did that. Answer this with yes or no, it was

:33:51.:33:54.

Margaret Thatcher right to introduce secret ballots for

:33:54.:34:01.

industrial action? Unions are democratic organisations. Yes or

:34:01.:34:08.

no? I would like to talk about what is happening now and not just in

:34:08.:34:18.

the past. Unions are democratic organisations. Washy right? It is

:34:18.:34:24.

members who will decide. -- was she right. There was strong support for

:34:24.:34:27.

strikes, it is insulting to ordinary people to support -- to

:34:27.:34:34.

suggest otherwise. Was she right? We are democratic organisations now

:34:34.:34:40.

and we are not interested in looking at battles of the 1970s but

:34:40.:34:44.

looking at the mess we have had because unions have been

:34:44.:34:49.

marginalised and societies. We had great support for the public sector

:34:49.:34:54.

pensions strike in 2011, two thirds of the public supported us,

:34:54.:34:59.

something is very wrong in Britain today and diverting the debate on

:35:00.:35:06.

to the 1970s will not help us sort out today. Clearly I have failed to

:35:06.:35:12.

get your attitudes on this. The unions have clearly lost power

:35:12.:35:16.

since 1979, Digby Jones, but the consequence has been there has been

:35:16.:35:21.

a big move in this country from our share of wealth going to profits at

:35:21.:35:26.

the expense of wages, wages have a small percentage of the GDP than

:35:26.:35:30.

before, but companies are not spending these profits. If readers

:35:30.:35:37.

were higher, the economy would do better, would it not? Statistically,

:35:37.:35:42.

you are right. There is one great example where shareholders have

:35:42.:35:46.

suffered at the expense of the workers and that is called bankers'

:35:46.:35:51.

bonuses, they have had bonuses at the expense of pension funds and

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you know I am right in that! Breeches, real wages have fallen

:35:58.:36:03.

and that is one of the reasons we are still in recession -- wages.

:36:03.:36:08.

do not think that is one of the reasons, because of the enhanced

:36:08.:36:12.

profit retained in the business, they are not spending it because of

:36:12.:36:18.

lack of confidence, a view of right. Francis is doing herself down

:36:18.:36:21.

because if you look at a private sector, the assets of partnership

:36:21.:36:25.

between good-quality unions and business is brilliant and is an

:36:25.:36:31.

example for Europe. Go look at Rolls Royce, for example, the

:36:32.:36:39.

unionised places -- look at. It will become attractive to capital

:36:39.:36:44.

from the world, the issue is the public sector. Act we have not got

:36:44.:36:49.

enough time. -- we have not. The majority of people believe the

:36:49.:36:54.

balance of power is too much in the favour of employers and that

:36:54.:36:57.

growing inequality we saw on the Thatcher and is increasing

:36:58.:37:03.

massively again today is one of the important causes of the crash --

:37:03.:37:08.

under Thatcher. There is too much power at the top and not enough for

:37:08.:37:14.

ordinary people and we need a different economy to move forward,

:37:14.:37:17.

even the Christian Democrats in Germany now accept that we just

:37:17.:37:22.

need to rise and collective bargaining needs to spread, and I

:37:22.:37:28.

think employers like Digby Jones he joined the union much in favour of

:37:28.:37:32.

Bombardier staying open it must have joined us and argue for a

:37:32.:37:39.

proper industrial policy for jobs and growth. And you for joining me.

:37:39.:37:48.

Good morning and welcome back to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up

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on the programme. NATO has suggested if Scotland

:37:50.:37:54.

becomes a "new state," it would not be a member of the Military

:37:54.:37:57.

Alliance, and would have to apply to join. The First Minister has

:37:57.:38:00.

said he is certain a request for continued membership of NATO would

:38:00.:38:05.

be accepted, despite his commitment to make Scotland nuclear-free.

:38:05.:38:08.

We will be live in Washington, with a former White House Special

:38:08.:38:11.

Assistant to President George W Bush and one-time chair of NATO's

:38:11.:38:15.

Nuclear Policy Committee, the High Level Group.

:38:15.:38:19.

And we have heard from the great and the good on Thatcher's legacy,

:38:19.:38:22.

but how did living through the '80s affect people's lives? What was the

:38:22.:38:32.
:38:32.:38:32.

NATO and nukes. They go together like bread and butter, or should

:38:32.:38:36.

that be chalk and cheese, depending on your political persuasion? Both

:38:36.:38:41.

have seen action this weekend on Scottish soil. War games are being

:38:41.:38:44.

played out off the Scottish coast, with NATO and other allied forces,

:38:44.:38:49.

as part of a joint military warrior exercise. Meanwhile, Scrap Trident

:38:49.:38:51.

demonstrators gathered in Glasgow yesterday, ahead of a planned anti-

:38:51.:39:01.
:39:01.:39:01.

nuclear protest at Faslane on Monday.

:39:01.:39:04.

The First Minister has also been in the States, reassuring the

:39:04.:39:06.

Americans that an independent Scotland would be a reliable

:39:06.:39:09.

military partner, without nuclear weapons. We caught up with our

:39:09.:39:11.

correspondent, Glenn Campbell, who has been following the story State-

:39:11.:39:17.

side this week. As an independent country, Scotland

:39:17.:39:22.

would have to establish itself internationally by taking up a seat

:39:22.:39:26.

at the United Nations and a son -- and becoming an independent member

:39:26.:39:31.

of the European Union and NATO. Alex Salmond stepped into the

:39:31.:39:35.

international arena, visiting the United States this week, and he

:39:35.:39:39.

presented himself as a Prime Minister in waiting. Rather than

:39:39.:39:44.

taking part and the colourful Tartan Day Parade, he made the

:39:44.:39:49.

second of three speeches on the future of Scotland. In Washington

:39:49.:39:53.

he made former up -- he met former US Secretary of State Colin Powell

:39:53.:39:57.

but did not get an appointment with anybody in the current

:39:57.:40:02.

administration. He delivered a message to them by making the third

:40:02.:40:07.

speech at the Brookings Institution on defence, to reassure Watson

:40:07.:40:11.

turned -- Washington that an independent Scotland would be a

:40:11.:40:16.

reliable partner in NATO, participating in the air and naval

:40:16.:40:22.

defence of Europe, as a non nuclear member of this nuclear alliance.

:40:22.:40:27.

Alex Salmond says it is possible and certain he believes that could

:40:27.:40:32.

be negotiated between a point at which there is a yes vote in the

:40:32.:40:36.

referendum and the point of independence, a year and a half

:40:36.:40:42.

later. NATO has said if Scotland is regarded as a new state, it would

:40:42.:40:47.

not be a member of NATO and that contrasts with Alex Salmond's

:40:47.:40:53.

position. There is a warning, NATO says a definitive do for --

:40:53.:40:57.

definitive determination and would have to be made by the 28 member

:40:57.:41:02.

countries, they have not discussed it. Alex Salmond is hoping in the

:41:02.:41:05.

event of independence, they would be more accommodating than that

:41:05.:41:08.

statement would suggest. Let's cross now to Washington,

:41:08.:41:10.

where we can talk to Franklin Miller. Franklin was a Special

:41:10.:41:13.

Assistant to President George W Bush for four years and a Senior

:41:13.:41:17.

Director for Defense Policy on the National Security Council. He has

:41:17.:41:20.

also spent over two decades as a senior official in the Defense

:41:20.:41:23.

Department and served for five years as the chair of NATO's

:41:23.:41:31.

Nuclear Policy Committee, the High Level Group.

:41:31.:41:40.

He could morning. -- good morning. We are hearing from our reporter,

:41:40.:41:46.

what do you think of the SNP's plans to secure NATO membership but

:41:46.:41:51.

remain free of nuclear weapons? first thing we have to establish as

:41:51.:41:56.

the basic principle that NATO is a defensive alliance whose job is to

:41:56.:42:00.

prevent aggression against member countries. And nuclear deterrence

:42:00.:42:07.

is a critical element of NATO's policy, as endorsed most recently

:42:07.:42:11.

twice in November 2010 at the Lisbon summit and made 2012 at the

:42:11.:42:17.

Chicago so met by the leaders of the 28 NATO countries. -- a summit.

:42:17.:42:23.

So the question is if the SNP believes nuclear deterrence is an

:42:23.:42:28.

acceptable on principle. I have seen press reports that suggest the

:42:28.:42:32.

SNP believe nuclear-weapons are illegal and should be banned and if

:42:32.:42:38.

that is the case, that is inconsistent with the NATO position

:42:38.:42:42.

that they are a critical part of the alliance defence component.

:42:42.:42:48.

his article 5 of the alliance defence treaty, is it not? -- that

:42:49.:42:57.

is. It is part of the agreement from the defence policy review as

:42:57.:43:01.

agreed in 22nd May of a. Alex Salmond, in his speech to the

:43:01.:43:05.

bricking -- to the Brookings Institute, and spoke about

:43:05.:43:11.

continued membership of NATO, put thwart Robert son this week said

:43:11.:43:15.

Scotland as an independent country would have to reapply -- Lord

:43:15.:43:20.

Robertson. What do you think? think Lord Robertson is right that

:43:20.:43:24.

an independent Scotland would have to reapply. So the first question

:43:24.:43:31.

is, do they believe if an independent Scotland has not,

:43:31.:43:38.

applying for an organisation like this seems not to be logical. If

:43:38.:43:41.

the SNP does accept nuclear deterrence as a general principle,

:43:41.:43:48.

a second question is, why would an independent separatist Scotland

:43:48.:43:53.

force the UK deterrent out of Faslane, making it more difficult

:43:53.:44:00.

for the UK to contribute to the nuclear alliance? So the alliance

:44:00.:44:04.

believes it needs that deterrent, it could be removed from Scotland

:44:04.:44:09.

or forced out, could there be a backlash from the United States?

:44:09.:44:15.

think yes, because extending the nuclear umbrella by the United

:44:15.:44:20.

States and the UK over the alliance requires that that our eyes to some

:44:20.:44:27.

of the risk sharing and they should be no free good here -- that allies.

:44:27.:44:34.

But an income -- but a -- but an independent Scotland would say, we

:44:34.:44:38.

off-line with a nuclear umbrella but we are not taking part in that

:44:38.:44:42.

risk or burden and we will complicate the deterrent by

:44:42.:44:47.

expelling it from Faslane. But Alex Salmond pointed out we could have

:44:48.:44:52.

American bases on Scottish soil and if they only had conventional

:44:52.:44:57.

weapons, that would be West and burden-sharing, would the Americans

:44:57.:45:04.

to accept that? -- a whisker? is interesting, but given the

:45:04.:45:10.

current budgetary circumstances we faced, there would be no

:45:10.:45:13.

establishing American bases in Scotland or anywhere else at this

:45:13.:45:19.

time, so it is an empty offer a. theoretically, if there was a base

:45:20.:45:26.

in Scotland, we believe nuclear weapons have been removed, cut the

:45:26.:45:31.

Americans dictate what kind of weapons they could store? -- Could

:45:31.:45:36.

the Americans. That would have to be worked out by the USA and the

:45:36.:45:40.

Scottish government. The Independent Scottish government, if

:45:40.:45:45.

that were to exist. BUSA cannot introduce nuclear weapons without

:45:45.:45:52.

the consent of the host country -- and the USA. That brings us to the

:45:52.:45:57.

issue of submarines on the West Coast of Scotland. The Americans

:45:57.:46:01.

would not have to say if there was a nuclear missile on board, so if

:46:01.:46:07.

you are part of NATO, you could have a nuclear missile on Scottish

:46:07.:46:14.

territory and not know about it. do not think that is true. The

:46:14.:46:18.

ballistic nuclear -- the ballistic missile submarines are distinct

:46:18.:46:24.

warships and they do have nuclear missiles, so if an American nuclear

:46:24.:46:29.

missile submarine came up the River Clyde, one would have to issue it

:46:29.:46:34.

was carrying weapons. It is US policy either to confirm or deny

:46:34.:46:39.

the presence, but it would be obvious what a nuclear missile

:46:39.:46:47.

submarine would be carrying. What the Americans see that as an

:46:47.:46:52.

acceptable part of risk and burden- sharing? I do not think so because

:46:52.:46:57.

expelling the force, the Royal Navy, from the River Clyde, makes

:46:57.:47:01.

Britain's role in protecting the alliance with its own nuclear

:47:01.:47:06.

deterrent much more difficult and it complicate the situation where

:47:06.:47:11.

the United Kingdom currently supplies part of the NATO nuclear

:47:11.:47:16.

deterrent. Last week, the NATO generally -- Secretary General

:47:16.:47:21.

congratulated the Royal Navy -- the Royal Navy on this latest deterrent

:47:21.:47:26.

patrol, saying it was an important contribution to NATO's defence and

:47:26.:47:31.

expelling it from the River Clyde would complicate the ability of the

:47:31.:47:34.

UK to have that deterrent capability to protect the lines

:47:34.:47:40.

that Scotland says it would like to join. -- the alliance. More weight

:47:40.:47:45.

and Denmark have banned nuclear weapons, but they are key members

:47:45.:47:51.

of the alliance, so how do you say the SNP's position is not logical,

:47:51.:48:01.
:48:01.:48:06.

but we have countries like Norway Expelling will do this for us from

:48:06.:48:16.

the Clyde would expel the status quo. Others tried to expel a

:48:16.:48:21.

nuclear weapons from Germany, a US nuclear weapons, and he was rounded

:48:21.:48:25.

damage by the United States and NATO as saying that they were

:48:25.:48:29.

shirking responsibility that they had assumed a long time ago, so it

:48:29.:48:35.

is about today and not what was decided decades ago. Thank you.

:48:35.:48:43.

Thank you for joining s from Washington DC. Thank you. With us

:48:43.:48:46.

to talk about their parties' policies, we have Labour's Jim

:48:46.:48:50.

Murphy and in Moray, the SNP's Angus Robertson.

:48:50.:48:55.

Anger is, what you are proposing is not to a poll, remaining free of

:48:56.:49:01.

nuclear weapons as Mr Salmond proposed this week, Mr Miller said

:49:01.:49:07.

that this is illogical. He has the right to that point of view, but it

:49:07.:49:11.

does not square the facts that Norway and Denmark are not

:49:11.:49:15.

currently member-states of the NATO had to not have nuclear weapons on

:49:15.:49:21.

their soil and have a policy that they do not want to have them on

:49:21.:49:25.

their soil, and we need to look at the departure of nuclear-weapons

:49:25.:49:30.

from Greece and Canada, so it is entirely consistent about wanting

:49:30.:49:34.

to work together with neighbours and allies and we would do that as

:49:34.:49:41.

a conventionally armed country, just as the overwhelming numbers of

:49:41.:49:45.

Salem Fayyad Estates. And later in the East: is to work against

:49:45.:49:53.

nuclear disarmament and Scotland can play its part in that.

:49:53.:50:01.

-- NATO is for working against. Franklin Miller said that Norway

:50:01.:50:06.

and Denmark had a consistent position, you were consistently

:50:06.:50:10.

upsetting the applecart with this position, he said when it comes

:50:10.:50:15.

down to it, you're not playing your part in the risk and burden-

:50:15.:50:21.

sharing? I just mentioned the fact that both Canada and Greece which

:50:21.:50:26.

had tactical nuclear weapons had them removed. That with the change

:50:26.:50:30.

of the status quo. It was possible for them, it would be possible for

:50:30.:50:36.

us. Scotland is in a very important geographical position in northern

:50:36.:50:42.

Europe, the North Sea to the east, the Atlantic to the West, we need

:50:42.:50:47.

to have proportional forces. The UK does not provide that in Scotland

:50:47.:50:54.

at the moment, there is they owe conventional naval craft, there is

:50:54.:50:57.

no maritime patrol craft. That is what neighbouring countries want us

:50:57.:51:03.

to do, to remain within the NATO and work than a conventional basis.

:51:03.:51:07.

It is important to work within NATO and our neighbours and friends.

:51:07.:51:13.

Murphy, it is ironic that what the SNP is proposing is what a lot of

:51:13.:51:18.

Labour people would like to see, a nuclear free Scotland but retaining

:51:18.:51:23.

the safety of the NATO umbrella. The more we discuss this, the more

:51:23.:51:27.

that we listen to Mr Miller in Washington, it is clear that the

:51:27.:51:33.

SNP have not done their homework. We're trying to get out of a

:51:33.:51:36.

military alliance in the UK and not meet the rules of the largest

:51:36.:51:41.

military alliance which is NATO. This idea that there will be a

:51:41.:51:45.

quick fix and an independent Scotland can rejoin NATO is funds

:51:45.:51:53.

of will. On the rules, the facts are clear. You do not have to have

:51:53.:51:57.

nuclear weapons on your soil, you have to have in principle and

:51:57.:52:01.

practice, the collective security of the nuclear umbrella which the

:52:01.:52:06.

SNP is playing with words, but they do not sign up to. The second is

:52:06.:52:11.

about money, you have to pay the bills. Even the creator budget they

:52:11.:52:15.

have come up with which nobody accepts, it doesn't meet the NATO

:52:15.:52:21.

threshold. They will be knocking on a closed door if they are

:52:21.:52:24.

independent, knocking on the doors of teenagers saying we will not

:52:24.:52:32.

sign up the rules, he does not make sense. Not signing up to the rules?

:52:32.:52:36.

I am delighted, we can read the transcript that he has accepted

:52:36.:52:44.

that NATO member states do not have to host nuclear weapons. I am

:52:44.:52:54.
:52:54.:52:56.

surprised that is news to you. you can let me finish, thank you,

:52:56.:53:02.

and if you look at the SNP budget for Defence and Security, 1.7 % of

:53:02.:53:06.

GDP is the European NATO average. We have looked at what neighbours,

:53:06.:53:11.

allies and friends do and we have worked out that we need to focus

:53:11.:53:14.

efforts on maritime conventional defence, are due a strategic

:53:14.:53:22.

position suggests this is the right thing to do. 80 % of people in

:53:22.:53:25.

Scotland Stuart wants nuclear weapons, so Jim Murphy can choose

:53:25.:53:30.

to disregard the opinions of the Scottish people. I am on the side

:53:30.:53:33.

of the majority of the people of Scotland to want rid of Trident to

:53:33.:53:39.

work with neighbours and friends and that is the way to go. He duet

:53:39.:53:46.

had to read by transcript, anyone watching this programme will know

:53:46.:53:50.

that NATO did not want bigger weapons. We enjoy comparing

:53:50.:53:55.

Scotland with Norway. Enure fanciful budget of �2.5 billion,

:53:55.:54:01.

Norway's spends about 4.5 on its defence. Let's compare like with

:54:01.:54:06.

like. It makes no sense to leave the UK military, come out of the

:54:06.:54:11.

British Army, the Royal Navy, the Royal Air Force. It makes sense

:54:11.:54:15.

that we share that responsibility on these islands and the SNP knows

:54:15.:54:19.

that their arguments doesn't add up in terms of leaving the UK military

:54:19.:54:23.

and they are looking for another alliance. The only other allies to

:54:23.:54:32.

stop fulfil the rules of criteria. They have not done their homework.

:54:32.:54:37.

Mr Robertson, why can you not to be like Ireland and not be a NATO

:54:37.:54:47.

member, not to join NATO? For the reasons I about light, we are in a

:54:47.:54:50.

specific strategic geographical position and we need to live up to

:54:50.:54:54.

our responsibilities for neighbours, allies and regions and dangerous

:54:54.:54:57.

stability and providing for the appropriate commercial defence. We

:54:57.:55:02.

had been looking at the Danish model and at 1.7 % of budgets and

:55:02.:55:06.

we could provide a very comparative offering no to that with that NATO

:55:06.:55:12.

alive. Of these countries did not live up to their responsibility,

:55:12.:55:17.

they would be calling for their expulsion, but they are not, they

:55:17.:55:20.

accept what they do working with neighbours and allies and that is

:55:20.:55:25.

what Scotland will do, it is just a shame about Jim Murphy does regards

:55:25.:55:29.

that use of the majority of people of Scotland to do that once a

:55:29.:55:34.

nuclear weapons in our country. would you define nuclear free,

:55:34.:55:39.

because if you have got its submarines are sailing up the River

:55:39.:55:43.

Clyde, you do not know what will be on board, the American submarine

:55:43.:55:48.

will lost any what is on board, there could be a nuclear missile

:55:48.:55:55.

coming in to Scotland and you have a nice tea with their policy? By --

:55:55.:56:01.

and you have an anti-nuclear policy. It is entirely workable policy we

:56:01.:56:07.

should not confuse two things. There is a rite of passage on the

:56:07.:56:10.

conventional law of the sea and the United Nations and there is the

:56:10.:56:13.

agreement that you ask that they do not bring a nuclear-armed vessels

:56:13.:56:17.

into the port. That is how it works with your weight, I June Rudd see

:56:17.:56:25.

why it cannot work with Scotland. - - I do not see why it cannot work.

:56:25.:56:29.

In the Sunday Herald's today, it was said Scotland B nuclear free is

:56:29.:56:38.

unlikely to be a serious impediment to NATO membership. Wigan have the

:56:38.:56:44.

conversation unilateralism first as a multilateralism. World events

:56:44.:56:49.

show that decisions will be taken in the next few years and the

:56:49.:56:54.

decision on the defence will sort us out for decades to come. You can

:56:54.:56:58.

give up a nuclear weapons, by yourself, if you can with certainty

:56:58.:57:01.

predict what the next 50 years were provided terms of world events.

:57:01.:57:07.

Nobody knows what it will look like in the next 50 years, and it is

:57:07.:57:11.

irresponsible to be unilateralist. The UK, the Chinese, the Russians,

:57:11.:57:16.

the French, all of those countries together, lets negotiated get rid

:57:16.:57:22.

of weapons that way. But with North Korea, Iran, tried to get to

:57:22.:57:27.

nuclear-weapons, a nuclear weapons arms race in beat Middle-East, it

:57:27.:57:34.

makes no sense Forester give up their nuclear capability. It is a

:57:34.:57:41.

mystery as to what Labour actually want. The New Statesman called the

:57:41.:57:48.

silence from July Lamont deafening. What does she want? The Labour

:57:48.:57:52.

Party, all of us, we are nutty unilateralist party. We do not

:57:52.:58:01.

believe in unilaterally giving up nuclear. It defends his reserve to

:58:01.:58:07.

the House of Commons along with many important issues. Invite us

:58:07.:58:12.

all on to the programme, the Labour Party, we believe in nuclear

:58:12.:58:16.

disarmament in a difficult world that is volatile, with all of these

:58:16.:58:21.

countries have tried to acquire a capability. The idea of the UK

:58:21.:58:24.

giving up this capability does not make much sense, but the

:58:24.:58:28.

conversation, we asked everyone, the more questions you ask, be

:58:28.:58:32.

fewer answers you get. Why would you give up membership of the

:58:32.:58:36.

fourth largest military in the world in terms of defence spending?

:58:36.:58:39.

Despite the cuts come up why would you give up the most capable

:58:39.:58:43.

European nation for Defence, why throw that all away on an offer at

:58:43.:58:48.

a risk and a one-way bet that they have their answers, on why he would

:58:48.:58:55.

leave the British Army, the Royal Navy and everything behind. Making

:58:55.:58:59.

that point about to one LUNT, but Mr Murphy saying that the Labour

:58:59.:59:07.

Party are not in favour of unilateral disarmament. That will

:59:07.:59:11.

come to a lot of disappointments to people in the Labour Party who wish

:59:11.:59:15.

that it was. They endorse their position that they would prefer to

:59:15.:59:20.

get rid of nuclear-weapons. We do not even in Scotland let's use

:59:20.:59:25.

their money for conventional defence. Week in spent or a

:59:25.:59:27.

conventional defence with independence less than in the UK at

:59:27.:59:32.

get rid of nuclear-weapons which is a good deal to me. On rescanned

:59:32.:59:36.

burden-sharing, Mr Salmond said that he was keen to see American

:59:36.:59:43.

bases here, but John well so, the SNP MSP has spoken out about this

:59:43.:59:48.

move, say because lots of attack in Syria or hold with the weapons. --

:59:48.:59:53.

John Wilson. He has been consistent with his position in conference

:59:53.:00:01.

last year when he opposed the policy I put to him. It said we

:00:01.:00:06.

were in favour of base sharing its logistics training, so it is up to

:00:06.:00:08.

a sovereign Scottish government to make the appropriate arrangements

:00:09.:00:13.

if that is ever proposed, but the SNP is in favour of this, the

:00:13.:00:17.

conference has passed his policy. Far Riley, Jim Murphy, we are

:00:18.:00:23.

speaking about the Labour position on Trident, a very prominent

:00:23.:00:26.

Belaubre of your party, Lord Brown, a former Defence Secretary, he is

:00:26.:00:32.

sceptical about this too. He is looking to see if we can maintain a

:00:32.:00:35.

military and spilt your capability at a lower cost which is sensible

:00:35.:00:43.

to look at. In a complicated world of many powerful nations at stages

:00:43.:00:46.

countries, it takes more than passing a resolution at a

:00:46.:00:51.

conference to create a reality. The fact that you cannot walk into two

:00:51.:00:58.

as it would be needed state, Paul Ince took five years. -- walked

:00:58.:01:07.

into NATO as an independent state. We are heading to London for the

:01:07.:01:10.

news, see you in a moment. The London School of Economics has

:01:10.:01:15.

accused the BBC of endangering its dubious by sending ecru with a bump

:01:15.:01:20.

to the North Korea had to film an undercover documentary. The London

:01:20.:01:24.

School said that they were not old enough to give informed consent and

:01:24.:01:32.

it could give serious damage to the school of for academic integrity.

:01:32.:01:36.

The BBC refutes this and says the programme will go ahead.

:01:36.:01:41.

The Panorama team fold under cover for eight days last month,

:01:41.:01:46.

travelling on a state organised tour, but the LSE claims that by

:01:46.:01:51.

posing as students, they put the entire group in danger. The LSE has

:01:51.:01:55.

accused the BBC of using lies and deception from the outset. It says

:01:55.:02:00.

it had no prior knowledge of this trip and about the BBC is unwilling

:02:00.:02:05.

to take responsibility for endangering its students. The BBC

:02:05.:02:07.

says the students were told twice a day journalist would be travelling

:02:07.:02:13.

with thermal, and what about the risk of arrest and detention. But

:02:13.:02:16.

the journalist John Sweeney acknowledges that they were not

:02:16.:02:21.

told that there was an undercover teams of three phoning a high-

:02:21.:02:28.

profile documentary. We told them enough but not enough to put them

:02:28.:02:31.

in parallel something went bad. Nothing went bad, we got away with

:02:31.:02:36.

it. It was preposterous, but the students helped us and the majority

:02:36.:02:42.

of students are very happy for this to go ahead. As an LSE graduate I

:02:42.:02:46.

find it extraordinary that an institution that believes in free

:02:46.:02:51.

thought should call for a documentary not to be aired.

:02:51.:03:01.
:03:01.:03:08.

has refused the request to withdraw The US Secretary of State, John

:03:08.:03:11.

Kerry, is visiting Tokyo in his latest attempt to build pressure on

:03:11.:03:14.

North Korea. As Mr Kerry arrived, Japan said the two countries should

:03:14.:03:17.

send a strong message to North Korea to give up its nuclear

:03:17.:03:19.

weapons programmes. Anti-missile systems have been stationed around

:03:19.:03:21.

Tokyo, in anticipation of a North Korean missile launch.

:03:22.:03:24.

Details have been published of the funeral service for Lady Thatcher,

:03:24.:03:27.

to be held at St Paul's Cathedral on Wednesday. As Lady Thatcher

:03:28.:03:30.

requested, the service will include music by English composers, and

:03:30.:03:33.

will contain some of her favourite hymns, reflecting both her

:03:33.:03:43.
:03:43.:03:44.

patriotism and her upbringing as a Methodist.

:03:44.:03:49.

Firefighters have managed to contain life by it -- a fire at a

:03:49.:03:53.

zoo in west London. The fire started in the tropical house,

:03:53.:03:58.

firefighters rescued two crocodiles and cannot have but some animals

:03:58.:04:03.

and cannot have but some animals and cannot have but some animals

:04:03.:04:13.
:04:13.:04:17.

have died. -- and an otter. That is all for now.

:04:17.:04:20.

Good afternoon. Firefighters have been tackling a blaze at a zoo in

:04:20.:04:23.

West Lothian. The fire is now thought to be under control, but

:04:23.:04:26.

the number of animals killed is still being assessed. Our reporter,

:04:26.:04:28.

Catriona Renton, is there. You can see the boat out house

:04:28.:04:32.

behind me, all the animals in the reptile house perished. A couple of

:04:32.:04:39.

crocodiles outside have been rescued, the moment it is not clear

:04:39.:04:45.

how many animals have died. -- at the moment. The zoo keeper is

:04:45.:04:50.

trying to see if any animals are still hiding. The me a cats

:04:50.:05:00.

chocolate spike and they have a tunnel to get outside. -- meercats.

:05:00.:05:05.

The reason for the fire is not yet known and the owners are devastated

:05:05.:05:10.

by what has happened. The Scottish Parliament is to

:05:10.:05:12.

debate Baroness Thatcher's legacy, on the day of her funeral. The

:05:13.:05:15.

joint Green-Independent group have set aside their allotted time at

:05:15.:05:17.

Holyrood for the debate. The Scottish Conservatives have

:05:17.:05:27.
:05:27.:05:28.

criticised the timing, saying it is offensive. Pine for the weather now.

:05:28.:05:38.
:05:38.:05:42.

It will stay windy, a strong southerly wind, they should be some

:05:42.:05:47.

bright weather coming through and there could be highs of 15 a 16

:05:47.:05:53.

degrees. In the sunshine, it will be quite pleasant. The risk of

:05:53.:06:03.
:06:03.:06:07.

severe gales across the Hebrides. At times this week, it has felt

:06:07.:06:10.

like being back in the 1980s. The leadership skills, policies and the

:06:10.:06:12.

legacy of Margaret Thatcher have all been fiercely debated. The

:06:12.:06:14.

confrontations will continue this week. Scottish Conservatives are

:06:14.:06:18.

angry the Greens are planning to hold a Holyrood debate on the Iron

:06:18.:06:21.

Lady the same day as her funeral. But what impact did living through

:06:21.:06:24.

the '80s have on people's day-to- day lives? Craig Hutchison has been

:06:24.:06:33.

talking to some of Thatcher's Children. Him in we, in Scotland, -

:06:33.:06:36.

- a week. This Scottish miracle did not

:06:36.:06:40.

happen by accident. A Margaret Thatcher wanted a harmonious

:06:40.:06:44.

relationship with Scotland but there was all too often discord --

:06:44.:06:50.

Margaret Thatcher. This mining museum is all that is left here,

:06:50.:07:00.
:07:00.:07:02.

Janet is the widow of a minor and the daughter of a minor. -- miner.

:07:02.:07:07.

Broke and homes, families broken up, brothers and sisters that do not

:07:07.:07:13.

speak to each other. My youngest is seven and she realises now what we

:07:13.:07:19.

went through. But some people like that Director of the National

:07:19.:07:23.

Mining Museum in Scotland took inspiration from Margaret Thatcher.

:07:23.:07:27.

Be in born into a world where she was in power was incredibly

:07:27.:07:31.

significant because as a woman, there were no barriers, I could

:07:32.:07:36.

achieve what I wanted and it was down to hard work. She had an

:07:36.:07:42.

impressive work ethic and that is one of her greatest legacies.

:07:42.:07:46.

Thatcher is renowned for privatising several state owned

:07:46.:07:51.

industries and revolutionising the financial sector, including here in

:07:51.:07:57.

Scotland. In 1966, Brian Johnson started work for an investment fund

:07:58.:08:02.

management firm in Edinburgh and he remains with them today.

:08:02.:08:07.

privatisation introduced a new range of people into the market --

:08:07.:08:11.

privatisation. A lot of money came into the market from overseas

:08:11.:08:18.

investors, so the game changed from a cosy club into an international

:08:18.:08:23.

financial operation. She was transformational not just personal

:08:23.:08:26.

loan -- not just personally but to the country, and without her, I do

:08:26.:08:32.

not know what would have happened. Celebrations in September 1977,

:08:32.:08:39.

after the devolution referendum. The initial impact when she came

:08:39.:08:43.

into power or she said there would be no constitutional change in

:08:43.:08:48.

Scotland and I was disappointed by that. I saw what she was doing to

:08:48.:08:52.

heavy industry, she was decimating it and putting people on the dole

:08:52.:08:57.

and cutting back on social policy, I thought, this is not a Scot and I

:08:57.:09:00.

want to the event and we have to control this woman and not just

:09:00.:09:05.

take it. This coming week will be a chance to mourn a political icon

:09:05.:09:11.

for some, but the death of Margaret that has only opened up winced for

:09:11.:09:18.

others. We will visit the cemetery and the miners' Museum and be

:09:18.:09:22.

together, that is the week we will spend Wednesday, are not watching

:09:22.:09:29.

the television. -- is -- that is the way that.

:09:29.:09:33.

We have two guests in our Edinburgh studio. The first is Jim Gallagher.

:09:33.:09:36.

Jim is a research fellow at Nuffield College in Oxford. He has

:09:36.:09:38.

also advised the UK government on devolution strategy and was closely

:09:38.:09:41.

involved in the Calman Commission. His new book, Scotland's Choices,

:09:41.:09:44.

is due out next week. And we also have another writer and former

:09:44.:09:47.

Scottish Conservative MSP, Brian Monteith. He is also a PR

:09:47.:09:51.

consultant and policy director for Thinkscotland.org.

:09:51.:09:57.

Your book, it is out this week are not looking ahead to the referendum.

:09:58.:10:01.

We have had all week that Margaret Thatcher was the midwife of the

:10:01.:10:06.

Scottish Parliament and perhaps of independence, depending how the

:10:06.:10:14.

referendum goes. My personal view is that it probably would have

:10:14.:10:18.

happened anyway, some kind of democratic control over Scottish

:10:18.:10:25.

institutions in Scotland, but there is no doubt that Margaret Thatcher

:10:25.:10:28.

provided the political opportunity for many to see that devolution was

:10:28.:10:34.

the answer. You have advised Scottish governments, how much of

:10:34.:10:40.

her policies have filtered through today? Ken Clarke was speaking this

:10:40.:10:43.

week that the consensus now is of a market economy with a social

:10:43.:10:50.

conscience. There is no doubt she shifted to UK political discourse

:10:50.:10:54.

to the right and the big acknowledgement of that was Tony

:10:54.:11:00.

Blair in 1997 saying that there were things a new Labour government

:11:00.:11:05.

would bring the Indian on the back of the Thatcher era. There were

:11:05.:11:09.

things that were not going to change, notably all the

:11:09.:11:16.

privatisations, and that has set a rebalancing of the UK government.

:11:17.:11:22.

Thatcher's legacy, I suppose it depended if you lived in Balzers

:11:22.:11:29.

and all West Lothian? A do not think that is true. -- in Basildon.

:11:29.:11:33.

The problem for the Conservatives was that in regard to England, it

:11:33.:11:38.

came later in Scotland, so there were difficulties to get any

:11:38.:11:44.

electoral bounced from it. But she had over 700,000 Scottish people

:11:44.:11:49.

voting for her in predilections. She laughed about 25% of the

:11:49.:11:55.

Scottish electorate -- and she laughed. The idea she ruined the

:11:55.:12:00.

Conservative Party in Scotland is a myth. Many people had a council

:12:00.:12:05.

house they rented and that they were able to buy. So Scottish

:12:05.:12:08.

people embraced many of her policies but they found it

:12:08.:12:13.

difficult to embrace the lady herself. The debate this week has

:12:13.:12:18.

often been that change was needed and perhaps was coming, did the de-

:12:18.:12:21.

industrialisation have to be so rapid with nothing to replace a

:12:21.:12:27.

lost industries? Martin a miss said she was as a necessary Prime

:12:27.:12:34.

Minister and that is correct. Other prime ministers had avoided hard

:12:34.:12:38.

choices in the 1970s and because Scotland was so desperately reliant

:12:38.:12:44.

on heavy industry, there was so much more to do. So we needed more

:12:44.:12:47.

Thatcherism, we needed Scottish privatisations and more

:12:47.:12:53.

deregulation, and there was in resistance to that even in the

:12:53.:12:57.

Scottish Conservative Party and that made it difficult. The truth

:12:57.:13:02.

is that what the Scottish economy needed was Margaret Thatcher to

:13:03.:13:05.

beat the Scottish Secretary of State, but she had her hands tied

:13:05.:13:12.

with more at -- to be. The SNP and Thatcher pursuing policies such as

:13:12.:13:16.

low corporation tax, could we have independence, but in the style of

:13:16.:13:22.

Bacher? Plenty of people in the SNP are on the right. -- in the style

:13:22.:13:28.

of Margaret Thatcher. The SNP would say it is a left-of-centre party.

:13:28.:13:33.

But much of her inheritance has take -- has been taken up by the

:13:33.:13:41.

Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr.


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