Browse content similar to 14/04/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Two leaders. Two legacies. But what exactly can Mrs Thatcher and Mr | :00:38. | :00:44. | |
Blair teach their parties today? As Maggie exits stage right, we | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
will ask Tory Chairman Grant Shapps whether his party can ever win | :00:47. | :00:53. | |
outright again. And after Tony Blair's warning that | :00:53. | :00:56. | |
Ed Miliband's Labour risks becoming a party of protest, not power, we | :00:56. | :01:06. | |
:01:06. | :01:07. | ||
are joined by former Home Secretary How will history judge the battle | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
between Mrs Thatcher and the unions and what is their role in Britain | :01:11. | :01:16. | |
today? The TUC secretary and the former trade minister Digby Jones | :01:16. | :01:18. | |
go head-to-head. And on Sunday Politics Scotland: Is | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
the SNP's policy of no-nuclear weapons compatible with NATO's | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
nuclear stance? Has the First Minister's trip to | :01:23. | :01:33. | |
:01:33. | :01:33. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1820 seconds | :01:33. | :31:53. | |
Do you accept that looking back, by 1979, the unions had got too big | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
for their boots and no matter who won the election, they would be | :31:57. | :32:03. | |
taken down? We can argue about the 1970s but it was Britain's most | :32:03. | :32:08. | |
equalled decade and what followed, you can draw up a direct line | :32:08. | :32:13. | |
between Margaret Thatcher's policies of demonising the unions, | :32:13. | :32:19. | |
but also deregulating the banks, privatising utilities, and selling | :32:19. | :32:25. | |
off council homes without replacing them, you can draw a direct line | :32:25. | :32:32. | |
between that and the mess we are living with today. | :32:32. | :32:39. | |
She did not answer the question. In 1979, this country was in such a | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
mess because of four or Fife and democratically elected people | :32:42. | :32:49. | |
decided on behalf of the whole nation -- at five. And Labour | :32:49. | :32:55. | |
Chancellor Denis Healey said, I will cut one penny off basic rate | :32:55. | :33:00. | |
income tax are four union leaders agreed to a �6 pay rise limit, so | :33:00. | :33:06. | |
who was running the country? What I find sad about these demonstrations | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
and a refusal to answer that question is that those who were | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
around at the time realised it was not Margaret Thatcher that brought | :33:14. | :33:20. | |
the unions into with proper place in society, it actually was Britain. | :33:20. | :33:25. | |
But because the average skilled working person in my home town of | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
Birmingham was told, you will join a union or you will not have a job | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
and if you were going to vote against what we want, we will beat | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
you up! That is no way to run a society and Britain knew that, so | :33:38. | :33:45. | |
it was the average person in the street food at the. Of -- in the | :33:45. | :33:51. | |
street that did that. Answer this with yes or no, it was | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
Margaret Thatcher right to introduce secret ballots for | :33:54. | :34:01. | |
industrial action? Unions are democratic organisations. Yes or | :34:01. | :34:08. | |
no? I would like to talk about what is happening now and not just in | :34:08. | :34:18. | |
the past. Unions are democratic organisations. Washy right? It is | :34:18. | :34:24. | |
members who will decide. -- was she right. There was strong support for | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
strikes, it is insulting to ordinary people to support -- to | :34:27. | :34:34. | |
suggest otherwise. Was she right? We are democratic organisations now | :34:34. | :34:40. | |
and we are not interested in looking at battles of the 1970s but | :34:40. | :34:44. | |
looking at the mess we have had because unions have been | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
marginalised and societies. We had great support for the public sector | :34:49. | :34:54. | |
pensions strike in 2011, two thirds of the public supported us, | :34:54. | :34:59. | |
something is very wrong in Britain today and diverting the debate on | :35:00. | :35:06. | |
to the 1970s will not help us sort out today. Clearly I have failed to | :35:06. | :35:12. | |
get your attitudes on this. The unions have clearly lost power | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
since 1979, Digby Jones, but the consequence has been there has been | :35:16. | :35:21. | |
a big move in this country from our share of wealth going to profits at | :35:21. | :35:26. | |
the expense of wages, wages have a small percentage of the GDP than | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
before, but companies are not spending these profits. If readers | :35:30. | :35:37. | |
were higher, the economy would do better, would it not? Statistically, | :35:37. | :35:42. | |
you are right. There is one great example where shareholders have | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
suffered at the expense of the workers and that is called bankers' | :35:46. | :35:51. | |
bonuses, they have had bonuses at the expense of pension funds and | :35:51. | :35:58. | |
you know I am right in that! Breeches, real wages have fallen | :35:58. | :36:03. | |
and that is one of the reasons we are still in recession -- wages. | :36:03. | :36:08. | |
do not think that is one of the reasons, because of the enhanced | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
profit retained in the business, they are not spending it because of | :36:12. | :36:18. | |
lack of confidence, a view of right. Francis is doing herself down | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
because if you look at a private sector, the assets of partnership | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
between good-quality unions and business is brilliant and is an | :36:25. | :36:31. | |
example for Europe. Go look at Rolls Royce, for example, the | :36:32. | :36:39. | |
unionised places -- look at. It will become attractive to capital | :36:39. | :36:44. | |
from the world, the issue is the public sector. Act we have not got | :36:44. | :36:49. | |
enough time. -- we have not. The majority of people believe the | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
balance of power is too much in the favour of employers and that | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
growing inequality we saw on the Thatcher and is increasing | :36:58. | :37:03. | |
massively again today is one of the important causes of the crash -- | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
under Thatcher. There is too much power at the top and not enough for | :37:08. | :37:14. | |
ordinary people and we need a different economy to move forward, | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
even the Christian Democrats in Germany now accept that we just | :37:17. | :37:22. | |
need to rise and collective bargaining needs to spread, and I | :37:22. | :37:28. | |
think employers like Digby Jones he joined the union much in favour of | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
Bombardier staying open it must have joined us and argue for a | :37:32. | :37:39. | |
proper industrial policy for jobs and growth. And you for joining me. | :37:39. | :37:48. | |
Good morning and welcome back to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
on the programme. NATO has suggested if Scotland | :37:50. | :37:54. | |
becomes a "new state," it would not be a member of the Military | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
Alliance, and would have to apply to join. The First Minister has | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
said he is certain a request for continued membership of NATO would | :38:00. | :38:05. | |
be accepted, despite his commitment to make Scotland nuclear-free. | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
We will be live in Washington, with a former White House Special | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
Assistant to President George W Bush and one-time chair of NATO's | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
Nuclear Policy Committee, the High Level Group. | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
And we have heard from the great and the good on Thatcher's legacy, | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
but how did living through the '80s affect people's lives? What was the | :38:22. | :38:32. | |
:38:32. | :38:32. | ||
NATO and nukes. They go together like bread and butter, or should | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
that be chalk and cheese, depending on your political persuasion? Both | :38:36. | :38:41. | |
have seen action this weekend on Scottish soil. War games are being | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
played out off the Scottish coast, with NATO and other allied forces, | :38:44. | :38:49. | |
as part of a joint military warrior exercise. Meanwhile, Scrap Trident | :38:49. | :38:51. | |
demonstrators gathered in Glasgow yesterday, ahead of a planned anti- | :38:51. | :39:01. | |
:39:01. | :39:01. | ||
nuclear protest at Faslane on Monday. | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
The First Minister has also been in the States, reassuring the | :39:04. | :39:06. | |
Americans that an independent Scotland would be a reliable | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
military partner, without nuclear weapons. We caught up with our | :39:09. | :39:11. | |
correspondent, Glenn Campbell, who has been following the story State- | :39:11. | :39:17. | |
side this week. As an independent country, Scotland | :39:17. | :39:22. | |
would have to establish itself internationally by taking up a seat | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
at the United Nations and a son -- and becoming an independent member | :39:26. | :39:31. | |
of the European Union and NATO. Alex Salmond stepped into the | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
international arena, visiting the United States this week, and he | :39:35. | :39:39. | |
presented himself as a Prime Minister in waiting. Rather than | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
taking part and the colourful Tartan Day Parade, he made the | :39:44. | :39:49. | |
second of three speeches on the future of Scotland. In Washington | :39:49. | :39:53. | |
he made former up -- he met former US Secretary of State Colin Powell | :39:53. | :39:57. | |
but did not get an appointment with anybody in the current | :39:57. | :40:02. | |
administration. He delivered a message to them by making the third | :40:02. | :40:07. | |
speech at the Brookings Institution on defence, to reassure Watson | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
turned -- Washington that an independent Scotland would be a | :40:11. | :40:16. | |
reliable partner in NATO, participating in the air and naval | :40:16. | :40:22. | |
defence of Europe, as a non nuclear member of this nuclear alliance. | :40:22. | :40:27. | |
Alex Salmond says it is possible and certain he believes that could | :40:27. | :40:32. | |
be negotiated between a point at which there is a yes vote in the | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
referendum and the point of independence, a year and a half | :40:36. | :40:42. | |
later. NATO has said if Scotland is regarded as a new state, it would | :40:42. | :40:47. | |
not be a member of NATO and that contrasts with Alex Salmond's | :40:47. | :40:53. | |
position. There is a warning, NATO says a definitive do for -- | :40:53. | :40:57. | |
definitive determination and would have to be made by the 28 member | :40:57. | :41:02. | |
countries, they have not discussed it. Alex Salmond is hoping in the | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
event of independence, they would be more accommodating than that | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
statement would suggest. Let's cross now to Washington, | :41:08. | :41:10. | |
where we can talk to Franklin Miller. Franklin was a Special | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
Assistant to President George W Bush for four years and a Senior | :41:13. | :41:17. | |
Director for Defense Policy on the National Security Council. He has | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
also spent over two decades as a senior official in the Defense | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
Department and served for five years as the chair of NATO's | :41:23. | :41:31. | |
Nuclear Policy Committee, the High Level Group. | :41:31. | :41:40. | |
He could morning. -- good morning. We are hearing from our reporter, | :41:40. | :41:46. | |
what do you think of the SNP's plans to secure NATO membership but | :41:46. | :41:51. | |
remain free of nuclear weapons? first thing we have to establish as | :41:51. | :41:56. | |
the basic principle that NATO is a defensive alliance whose job is to | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
prevent aggression against member countries. And nuclear deterrence | :42:00. | :42:07. | |
is a critical element of NATO's policy, as endorsed most recently | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
twice in November 2010 at the Lisbon summit and made 2012 at the | :42:11. | :42:17. | |
Chicago so met by the leaders of the 28 NATO countries. -- a summit. | :42:17. | :42:23. | |
So the question is if the SNP believes nuclear deterrence is an | :42:23. | :42:28. | |
acceptable on principle. I have seen press reports that suggest the | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
SNP believe nuclear-weapons are illegal and should be banned and if | :42:32. | :42:38. | |
that is the case, that is inconsistent with the NATO position | :42:38. | :42:42. | |
that they are a critical part of the alliance defence component. | :42:42. | :42:48. | |
his article 5 of the alliance defence treaty, is it not? -- that | :42:49. | :42:57. | |
is. It is part of the agreement from the defence policy review as | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
agreed in 22nd May of a. Alex Salmond, in his speech to the | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
bricking -- to the Brookings Institute, and spoke about | :43:05. | :43:11. | |
continued membership of NATO, put thwart Robert son this week said | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
Scotland as an independent country would have to reapply -- Lord | :43:15. | :43:20. | |
Robertson. What do you think? think Lord Robertson is right that | :43:20. | :43:24. | |
an independent Scotland would have to reapply. So the first question | :43:24. | :43:31. | |
is, do they believe if an independent Scotland has not, | :43:31. | :43:38. | |
applying for an organisation like this seems not to be logical. If | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
the SNP does accept nuclear deterrence as a general principle, | :43:41. | :43:48. | |
a second question is, why would an independent separatist Scotland | :43:48. | :43:53. | |
force the UK deterrent out of Faslane, making it more difficult | :43:53. | :44:00. | |
for the UK to contribute to the nuclear alliance? So the alliance | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
believes it needs that deterrent, it could be removed from Scotland | :44:04. | :44:09. | |
or forced out, could there be a backlash from the United States? | :44:09. | :44:15. | |
think yes, because extending the nuclear umbrella by the United | :44:15. | :44:20. | |
States and the UK over the alliance requires that that our eyes to some | :44:20. | :44:27. | |
of the risk sharing and they should be no free good here -- that allies. | :44:27. | :44:34. | |
But an income -- but a -- but an independent Scotland would say, we | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
off-line with a nuclear umbrella but we are not taking part in that | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
risk or burden and we will complicate the deterrent by | :44:42. | :44:47. | |
expelling it from Faslane. But Alex Salmond pointed out we could have | :44:48. | :44:52. | |
American bases on Scottish soil and if they only had conventional | :44:52. | :44:57. | |
weapons, that would be West and burden-sharing, would the Americans | :44:57. | :45:04. | |
to accept that? -- a whisker? is interesting, but given the | :45:04. | :45:10. | |
current budgetary circumstances we faced, there would be no | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
establishing American bases in Scotland or anywhere else at this | :45:13. | :45:19. | |
time, so it is an empty offer a. theoretically, if there was a base | :45:20. | :45:26. | |
in Scotland, we believe nuclear weapons have been removed, cut the | :45:26. | :45:31. | |
Americans dictate what kind of weapons they could store? -- Could | :45:31. | :45:36. | |
the Americans. That would have to be worked out by the USA and the | :45:36. | :45:40. | |
Scottish government. The Independent Scottish government, if | :45:40. | :45:45. | |
that were to exist. BUSA cannot introduce nuclear weapons without | :45:45. | :45:52. | |
the consent of the host country -- and the USA. That brings us to the | :45:52. | :45:57. | |
issue of submarines on the West Coast of Scotland. The Americans | :45:57. | :46:01. | |
would not have to say if there was a nuclear missile on board, so if | :46:01. | :46:07. | |
you are part of NATO, you could have a nuclear missile on Scottish | :46:07. | :46:14. | |
territory and not know about it. do not think that is true. The | :46:14. | :46:18. | |
ballistic nuclear -- the ballistic missile submarines are distinct | :46:18. | :46:24. | |
warships and they do have nuclear missiles, so if an American nuclear | :46:24. | :46:29. | |
missile submarine came up the River Clyde, one would have to issue it | :46:29. | :46:34. | |
was carrying weapons. It is US policy either to confirm or deny | :46:34. | :46:39. | |
the presence, but it would be obvious what a nuclear missile | :46:39. | :46:47. | |
submarine would be carrying. What the Americans see that as an | :46:47. | :46:52. | |
acceptable part of risk and burden- sharing? I do not think so because | :46:52. | :46:57. | |
expelling the force, the Royal Navy, from the River Clyde, makes | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
Britain's role in protecting the alliance with its own nuclear | :47:01. | :47:06. | |
deterrent much more difficult and it complicate the situation where | :47:06. | :47:11. | |
the United Kingdom currently supplies part of the NATO nuclear | :47:11. | :47:16. | |
deterrent. Last week, the NATO generally -- Secretary General | :47:16. | :47:21. | |
congratulated the Royal Navy -- the Royal Navy on this latest deterrent | :47:21. | :47:26. | |
patrol, saying it was an important contribution to NATO's defence and | :47:26. | :47:31. | |
expelling it from the River Clyde would complicate the ability of the | :47:31. | :47:34. | |
UK to have that deterrent capability to protect the lines | :47:34. | :47:40. | |
that Scotland says it would like to join. -- the alliance. More weight | :47:40. | :47:45. | |
and Denmark have banned nuclear weapons, but they are key members | :47:45. | :47:51. | |
of the alliance, so how do you say the SNP's position is not logical, | :47:51. | :48:01. | |
:48:01. | :48:06. | ||
but we have countries like Norway Expelling will do this for us from | :48:06. | :48:16. | |
the Clyde would expel the status quo. Others tried to expel a | :48:16. | :48:21. | |
nuclear weapons from Germany, a US nuclear weapons, and he was rounded | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
damage by the United States and NATO as saying that they were | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
shirking responsibility that they had assumed a long time ago, so it | :48:29. | :48:35. | |
is about today and not what was decided decades ago. Thank you. | :48:35. | :48:43. | |
Thank you for joining s from Washington DC. Thank you. With us | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
to talk about their parties' policies, we have Labour's Jim | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
Murphy and in Moray, the SNP's Angus Robertson. | :48:50. | :48:55. | |
Anger is, what you are proposing is not to a poll, remaining free of | :48:56. | :49:01. | |
nuclear weapons as Mr Salmond proposed this week, Mr Miller said | :49:01. | :49:07. | |
that this is illogical. He has the right to that point of view, but it | :49:07. | :49:11. | |
does not square the facts that Norway and Denmark are not | :49:11. | :49:15. | |
currently member-states of the NATO had to not have nuclear weapons on | :49:15. | :49:21. | |
their soil and have a policy that they do not want to have them on | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
their soil, and we need to look at the departure of nuclear-weapons | :49:25. | :49:30. | |
from Greece and Canada, so it is entirely consistent about wanting | :49:30. | :49:34. | |
to work together with neighbours and allies and we would do that as | :49:34. | :49:41. | |
a conventionally armed country, just as the overwhelming numbers of | :49:41. | :49:45. | |
Salem Fayyad Estates. And later in the East: is to work against | :49:45. | :49:53. | |
nuclear disarmament and Scotland can play its part in that. | :49:53. | :50:01. | |
-- NATO is for working against. Franklin Miller said that Norway | :50:01. | :50:06. | |
and Denmark had a consistent position, you were consistently | :50:06. | :50:10. | |
upsetting the applecart with this position, he said when it comes | :50:10. | :50:15. | |
down to it, you're not playing your part in the risk and burden- | :50:15. | :50:21. | |
sharing? I just mentioned the fact that both Canada and Greece which | :50:21. | :50:26. | |
had tactical nuclear weapons had them removed. That with the change | :50:26. | :50:30. | |
of the status quo. It was possible for them, it would be possible for | :50:30. | :50:36. | |
us. Scotland is in a very important geographical position in northern | :50:36. | :50:42. | |
Europe, the North Sea to the east, the Atlantic to the West, we need | :50:42. | :50:47. | |
to have proportional forces. The UK does not provide that in Scotland | :50:47. | :50:54. | |
at the moment, there is they owe conventional naval craft, there is | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
no maritime patrol craft. That is what neighbouring countries want us | :50:57. | :51:03. | |
to do, to remain within the NATO and work than a conventional basis. | :51:03. | :51:07. | |
It is important to work within NATO and our neighbours and friends. | :51:07. | :51:13. | |
Murphy, it is ironic that what the SNP is proposing is what a lot of | :51:13. | :51:18. | |
Labour people would like to see, a nuclear free Scotland but retaining | :51:18. | :51:23. | |
the safety of the NATO umbrella. The more we discuss this, the more | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
that we listen to Mr Miller in Washington, it is clear that the | :51:27. | :51:33. | |
SNP have not done their homework. We're trying to get out of a | :51:33. | :51:36. | |
military alliance in the UK and not meet the rules of the largest | :51:36. | :51:41. | |
military alliance which is NATO. This idea that there will be a | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
quick fix and an independent Scotland can rejoin NATO is funds | :51:45. | :51:53. | |
of will. On the rules, the facts are clear. You do not have to have | :51:53. | :51:57. | |
nuclear weapons on your soil, you have to have in principle and | :51:57. | :52:01. | |
practice, the collective security of the nuclear umbrella which the | :52:01. | :52:06. | |
SNP is playing with words, but they do not sign up to. The second is | :52:06. | :52:11. | |
about money, you have to pay the bills. Even the creator budget they | :52:11. | :52:15. | |
have come up with which nobody accepts, it doesn't meet the NATO | :52:15. | :52:21. | |
threshold. They will be knocking on a closed door if they are | :52:21. | :52:24. | |
independent, knocking on the doors of teenagers saying we will not | :52:24. | :52:32. | |
sign up the rules, he does not make sense. Not signing up to the rules? | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
I am delighted, we can read the transcript that he has accepted | :52:36. | :52:44. | |
that NATO member states do not have to host nuclear weapons. I am | :52:44. | :52:54. | |
:52:54. | :52:56. | ||
surprised that is news to you. you can let me finish, thank you, | :52:56. | :53:02. | |
and if you look at the SNP budget for Defence and Security, 1.7 % of | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
GDP is the European NATO average. We have looked at what neighbours, | :53:06. | :53:11. | |
allies and friends do and we have worked out that we need to focus | :53:11. | :53:14. | |
efforts on maritime conventional defence, are due a strategic | :53:14. | :53:22. | |
position suggests this is the right thing to do. 80 % of people in | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
Scotland Stuart wants nuclear weapons, so Jim Murphy can choose | :53:25. | :53:30. | |
to disregard the opinions of the Scottish people. I am on the side | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
of the majority of the people of Scotland to want rid of Trident to | :53:33. | :53:39. | |
work with neighbours and friends and that is the way to go. He duet | :53:39. | :53:46. | |
had to read by transcript, anyone watching this programme will know | :53:46. | :53:50. | |
that NATO did not want bigger weapons. We enjoy comparing | :53:50. | :53:55. | |
Scotland with Norway. Enure fanciful budget of �2.5 billion, | :53:55. | :54:01. | |
Norway's spends about 4.5 on its defence. Let's compare like with | :54:01. | :54:06. | |
like. It makes no sense to leave the UK military, come out of the | :54:06. | :54:11. | |
British Army, the Royal Navy, the Royal Air Force. It makes sense | :54:11. | :54:15. | |
that we share that responsibility on these islands and the SNP knows | :54:15. | :54:19. | |
that their arguments doesn't add up in terms of leaving the UK military | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
and they are looking for another alliance. The only other allies to | :54:23. | :54:32. | |
stop fulfil the rules of criteria. They have not done their homework. | :54:32. | :54:37. | |
Mr Robertson, why can you not to be like Ireland and not be a NATO | :54:37. | :54:47. | |
member, not to join NATO? For the reasons I about light, we are in a | :54:47. | :54:50. | |
specific strategic geographical position and we need to live up to | :54:50. | :54:54. | |
our responsibilities for neighbours, allies and regions and dangerous | :54:54. | :54:57. | |
stability and providing for the appropriate commercial defence. We | :54:57. | :55:02. | |
had been looking at the Danish model and at 1.7 % of budgets and | :55:02. | :55:06. | |
we could provide a very comparative offering no to that with that NATO | :55:06. | :55:12. | |
alive. Of these countries did not live up to their responsibility, | :55:12. | :55:17. | |
they would be calling for their expulsion, but they are not, they | :55:17. | :55:20. | |
accept what they do working with neighbours and allies and that is | :55:20. | :55:25. | |
what Scotland will do, it is just a shame about Jim Murphy does regards | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
that use of the majority of people of Scotland to do that once a | :55:29. | :55:34. | |
nuclear weapons in our country. would you define nuclear free, | :55:34. | :55:39. | |
because if you have got its submarines are sailing up the River | :55:39. | :55:43. | |
Clyde, you do not know what will be on board, the American submarine | :55:43. | :55:48. | |
will lost any what is on board, there could be a nuclear missile | :55:48. | :55:55. | |
coming in to Scotland and you have a nice tea with their policy? By -- | :55:55. | :56:01. | |
and you have an anti-nuclear policy. It is entirely workable policy we | :56:01. | :56:07. | |
should not confuse two things. There is a rite of passage on the | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
conventional law of the sea and the United Nations and there is the | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
agreement that you ask that they do not bring a nuclear-armed vessels | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
into the port. That is how it works with your weight, I June Rudd see | :56:17. | :56:25. | |
why it cannot work with Scotland. - - I do not see why it cannot work. | :56:25. | :56:29. | |
In the Sunday Herald's today, it was said Scotland B nuclear free is | :56:29. | :56:38. | |
unlikely to be a serious impediment to NATO membership. Wigan have the | :56:38. | :56:44. | |
conversation unilateralism first as a multilateralism. World events | :56:44. | :56:49. | |
show that decisions will be taken in the next few years and the | :56:49. | :56:54. | |
decision on the defence will sort us out for decades to come. You can | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
give up a nuclear weapons, by yourself, if you can with certainty | :56:58. | :57:01. | |
predict what the next 50 years were provided terms of world events. | :57:01. | :57:07. | |
Nobody knows what it will look like in the next 50 years, and it is | :57:07. | :57:11. | |
irresponsible to be unilateralist. The UK, the Chinese, the Russians, | :57:11. | :57:16. | |
the French, all of those countries together, lets negotiated get rid | :57:16. | :57:22. | |
of weapons that way. But with North Korea, Iran, tried to get to | :57:22. | :57:27. | |
nuclear-weapons, a nuclear weapons arms race in beat Middle-East, it | :57:27. | :57:34. | |
makes no sense Forester give up their nuclear capability. It is a | :57:34. | :57:41. | |
mystery as to what Labour actually want. The New Statesman called the | :57:41. | :57:48. | |
silence from July Lamont deafening. What does she want? The Labour | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
Party, all of us, we are nutty unilateralist party. We do not | :57:52. | :58:01. | |
believe in unilaterally giving up nuclear. It defends his reserve to | :58:01. | :58:07. | |
the House of Commons along with many important issues. Invite us | :58:07. | :58:12. | |
all on to the programme, the Labour Party, we believe in nuclear | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
disarmament in a difficult world that is volatile, with all of these | :58:16. | :58:21. | |
countries have tried to acquire a capability. The idea of the UK | :58:21. | :58:24. | |
giving up this capability does not make much sense, but the | :58:24. | :58:28. | |
conversation, we asked everyone, the more questions you ask, be | :58:28. | :58:32. | |
fewer answers you get. Why would you give up membership of the | :58:32. | :58:36. | |
fourth largest military in the world in terms of defence spending? | :58:36. | :58:39. | |
Despite the cuts come up why would you give up the most capable | :58:39. | :58:43. | |
European nation for Defence, why throw that all away on an offer at | :58:43. | :58:48. | |
a risk and a one-way bet that they have their answers, on why he would | :58:48. | :58:55. | |
leave the British Army, the Royal Navy and everything behind. Making | :58:55. | :58:59. | |
that point about to one LUNT, but Mr Murphy saying that the Labour | :58:59. | :59:07. | |
Party are not in favour of unilateral disarmament. That will | :59:07. | :59:11. | |
come to a lot of disappointments to people in the Labour Party who wish | :59:11. | :59:15. | |
that it was. They endorse their position that they would prefer to | :59:15. | :59:20. | |
get rid of nuclear-weapons. We do not even in Scotland let's use | :59:20. | :59:25. | |
their money for conventional defence. Week in spent or a | :59:25. | :59:27. | |
conventional defence with independence less than in the UK at | :59:27. | :59:32. | |
get rid of nuclear-weapons which is a good deal to me. On rescanned | :59:32. | :59:36. | |
burden-sharing, Mr Salmond said that he was keen to see American | :59:36. | :59:43. | |
bases here, but John well so, the SNP MSP has spoken out about this | :59:43. | :59:48. | |
move, say because lots of attack in Syria or hold with the weapons. -- | :59:48. | :59:53. | |
John Wilson. He has been consistent with his position in conference | :59:53. | :00:01. | |
last year when he opposed the policy I put to him. It said we | :00:01. | :00:06. | |
were in favour of base sharing its logistics training, so it is up to | :00:06. | :00:08. | |
a sovereign Scottish government to make the appropriate arrangements | :00:09. | :00:13. | |
if that is ever proposed, but the SNP is in favour of this, the | :00:13. | :00:17. | |
conference has passed his policy. Far Riley, Jim Murphy, we are | :00:18. | :00:23. | |
speaking about the Labour position on Trident, a very prominent | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
Belaubre of your party, Lord Brown, a former Defence Secretary, he is | :00:26. | :00:32. | |
sceptical about this too. He is looking to see if we can maintain a | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
military and spilt your capability at a lower cost which is sensible | :00:35. | :00:43. | |
to look at. In a complicated world of many powerful nations at stages | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
countries, it takes more than passing a resolution at a | :00:46. | :00:51. | |
conference to create a reality. The fact that you cannot walk into two | :00:51. | :00:58. | |
as it would be needed state, Paul Ince took five years. -- walked | :00:58. | :01:07. | |
into NATO as an independent state. We are heading to London for the | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
news, see you in a moment. The London School of Economics has | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
accused the BBC of endangering its dubious by sending ecru with a bump | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
to the North Korea had to film an undercover documentary. The London | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
School said that they were not old enough to give informed consent and | :01:24. | :01:32. | |
it could give serious damage to the school of for academic integrity. | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
The BBC refutes this and says the programme will go ahead. | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
The Panorama team fold under cover for eight days last month, | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
travelling on a state organised tour, but the LSE claims that by | :01:46. | :01:51. | |
posing as students, they put the entire group in danger. The LSE has | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
accused the BBC of using lies and deception from the outset. It says | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
it had no prior knowledge of this trip and about the BBC is unwilling | :02:00. | :02:05. | |
to take responsibility for endangering its students. The BBC | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
says the students were told twice a day journalist would be travelling | :02:07. | :02:13. | |
with thermal, and what about the risk of arrest and detention. But | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
the journalist John Sweeney acknowledges that they were not | :02:16. | :02:21. | |
told that there was an undercover teams of three phoning a high- | :02:21. | :02:28. | |
profile documentary. We told them enough but not enough to put them | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
in parallel something went bad. Nothing went bad, we got away with | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
it. It was preposterous, but the students helped us and the majority | :02:36. | :02:42. | |
of students are very happy for this to go ahead. As an LSE graduate I | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
find it extraordinary that an institution that believes in free | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
thought should call for a documentary not to be aired. | :02:51. | :03:01. | |
:03:01. | :03:08. | ||
has refused the request to withdraw The US Secretary of State, John | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
Kerry, is visiting Tokyo in his latest attempt to build pressure on | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
North Korea. As Mr Kerry arrived, Japan said the two countries should | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
send a strong message to North Korea to give up its nuclear | :03:17. | :03:19. | |
weapons programmes. Anti-missile systems have been stationed around | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
Tokyo, in anticipation of a North Korean missile launch. | :03:22. | :03:24. | |
Details have been published of the funeral service for Lady Thatcher, | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
to be held at St Paul's Cathedral on Wednesday. As Lady Thatcher | :03:28. | :03:30. | |
requested, the service will include music by English composers, and | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
will contain some of her favourite hymns, reflecting both her | :03:33. | :03:43. | |
:03:43. | :03:44. | ||
patriotism and her upbringing as a Methodist. | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
Firefighters have managed to contain life by it -- a fire at a | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
zoo in west London. The fire started in the tropical house, | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
firefighters rescued two crocodiles and cannot have but some animals | :03:58. | :04:03. | |
and cannot have but some animals and cannot have but some animals | :04:03. | :04:13. | |
:04:13. | :04:17. | ||
have died. -- and an otter. That is all for now. | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
Good afternoon. Firefighters have been tackling a blaze at a zoo in | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
West Lothian. The fire is now thought to be under control, but | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
the number of animals killed is still being assessed. Our reporter, | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
Catriona Renton, is there. You can see the boat out house | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
behind me, all the animals in the reptile house perished. A couple of | :04:32. | :04:39. | |
crocodiles outside have been rescued, the moment it is not clear | :04:39. | :04:45. | |
how many animals have died. -- at the moment. The zoo keeper is | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
trying to see if any animals are still hiding. The me a cats | :04:50. | :05:00. | |
chocolate spike and they have a tunnel to get outside. -- meercats. | :05:00. | :05:05. | |
The reason for the fire is not yet known and the owners are devastated | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
by what has happened. The Scottish Parliament is to | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
debate Baroness Thatcher's legacy, on the day of her funeral. The | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
joint Green-Independent group have set aside their allotted time at | :05:15. | :05:17. | |
Holyrood for the debate. The Scottish Conservatives have | :05:17. | :05:27. | |
:05:27. | :05:28. | ||
criticised the timing, saying it is offensive. Pine for the weather now. | :05:28. | :05:38. | |
:05:38. | :05:42. | ||
It will stay windy, a strong southerly wind, they should be some | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
bright weather coming through and there could be highs of 15 a 16 | :05:47. | :05:53. | |
degrees. In the sunshine, it will be quite pleasant. The risk of | :05:53. | :06:03. | |
:06:03. | :06:07. | ||
severe gales across the Hebrides. At times this week, it has felt | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
like being back in the 1980s. The leadership skills, policies and the | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
legacy of Margaret Thatcher have all been fiercely debated. The | :06:12. | :06:14. | |
confrontations will continue this week. Scottish Conservatives are | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
angry the Greens are planning to hold a Holyrood debate on the Iron | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
Lady the same day as her funeral. But what impact did living through | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
the '80s have on people's day-to- day lives? Craig Hutchison has been | :06:24. | :06:33. | |
talking to some of Thatcher's Children. Him in we, in Scotland, - | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
- a week. This Scottish miracle did not | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
happen by accident. A Margaret Thatcher wanted a harmonious | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
relationship with Scotland but there was all too often discord -- | :06:44. | :06:50. | |
Margaret Thatcher. This mining museum is all that is left here, | :06:50. | :07:00. | |
:07:00. | :07:02. | ||
Janet is the widow of a minor and the daughter of a minor. -- miner. | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
Broke and homes, families broken up, brothers and sisters that do not | :07:07. | :07:13. | |
speak to each other. My youngest is seven and she realises now what we | :07:13. | :07:19. | |
went through. But some people like that Director of the National | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
Mining Museum in Scotland took inspiration from Margaret Thatcher. | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
Be in born into a world where she was in power was incredibly | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
significant because as a woman, there were no barriers, I could | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
achieve what I wanted and it was down to hard work. She had an | :07:36. | :07:42. | |
impressive work ethic and that is one of her greatest legacies. | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
Thatcher is renowned for privatising several state owned | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
industries and revolutionising the financial sector, including here in | :07:51. | :07:57. | |
Scotland. In 1966, Brian Johnson started work for an investment fund | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
management firm in Edinburgh and he remains with them today. | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
privatisation introduced a new range of people into the market -- | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
privatisation. A lot of money came into the market from overseas | :08:11. | :08:18. | |
investors, so the game changed from a cosy club into an international | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
financial operation. She was transformational not just personal | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
loan -- not just personally but to the country, and without her, I do | :08:26. | :08:32. | |
not know what would have happened. Celebrations in September 1977, | :08:32. | :08:39. | |
after the devolution referendum. The initial impact when she came | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
into power or she said there would be no constitutional change in | :08:43. | :08:48. | |
Scotland and I was disappointed by that. I saw what she was doing to | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
heavy industry, she was decimating it and putting people on the dole | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
and cutting back on social policy, I thought, this is not a Scot and I | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
want to the event and we have to control this woman and not just | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
take it. This coming week will be a chance to mourn a political icon | :09:05. | :09:11. | |
for some, but the death of Margaret that has only opened up winced for | :09:11. | :09:18. | |
others. We will visit the cemetery and the miners' Museum and be | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
together, that is the week we will spend Wednesday, are not watching | :09:22. | :09:29. | |
the television. -- is -- that is the way that. | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
We have two guests in our Edinburgh studio. The first is Jim Gallagher. | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
Jim is a research fellow at Nuffield College in Oxford. He has | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
also advised the UK government on devolution strategy and was closely | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
involved in the Calman Commission. His new book, Scotland's Choices, | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
is due out next week. And we also have another writer and former | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
Scottish Conservative MSP, Brian Monteith. He is also a PR | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
consultant and policy director for Thinkscotland.org. | :09:51. | :09:57. | |
Your book, it is out this week are not looking ahead to the referendum. | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
We have had all week that Margaret Thatcher was the midwife of the | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
Scottish Parliament and perhaps of independence, depending how the | :10:06. | :10:14. | |
referendum goes. My personal view is that it probably would have | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
happened anyway, some kind of democratic control over Scottish | :10:18. | :10:25. | |
institutions in Scotland, but there is no doubt that Margaret Thatcher | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
provided the political opportunity for many to see that devolution was | :10:28. | :10:34. | |
the answer. You have advised Scottish governments, how much of | :10:34. | :10:40. | |
her policies have filtered through today? Ken Clarke was speaking this | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
week that the consensus now is of a market economy with a social | :10:43. | :10:50. | |
conscience. There is no doubt she shifted to UK political discourse | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
to the right and the big acknowledgement of that was Tony | :10:54. | :11:00. | |
Blair in 1997 saying that there were things a new Labour government | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
would bring the Indian on the back of the Thatcher era. There were | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
things that were not going to change, notably all the | :11:09. | :11:16. | |
privatisations, and that has set a rebalancing of the UK government. | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
Thatcher's legacy, I suppose it depended if you lived in Balzers | :11:22. | :11:29. | |
and all West Lothian? A do not think that is true. -- in Basildon. | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
The problem for the Conservatives was that in regard to England, it | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
came later in Scotland, so there were difficulties to get any | :11:38. | :11:44. | |
electoral bounced from it. But she had over 700,000 Scottish people | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
voting for her in predilections. She laughed about 25% of the | :11:49. | :11:55. | |
Scottish electorate -- and she laughed. The idea she ruined the | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
Conservative Party in Scotland is a myth. Many people had a council | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
house they rented and that they were able to buy. So Scottish | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
people embraced many of her policies but they found it | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
difficult to embrace the lady herself. The debate this week has | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
often been that change was needed and perhaps was coming, did the de- | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
industrialisation have to be so rapid with nothing to replace a | :12:21. | :12:27. | |
lost industries? Martin a miss said she was as a necessary Prime | :12:27. | :12:34. | |
Minister and that is correct. Other prime ministers had avoided hard | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
choices in the 1970s and because Scotland was so desperately reliant | :12:38. | :12:44. | |
on heavy industry, there was so much more to do. So we needed more | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
Thatcherism, we needed Scottish privatisations and more | :12:47. | :12:53. | |
deregulation, and there was in resistance to that even in the | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
Scottish Conservative Party and that made it difficult. The truth | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
is that what the Scottish economy needed was Margaret Thatcher to | :13:03. | :13:05. | |
beat the Scottish Secretary of State, but she had her hands tied | :13:05. | :13:12. | |
with more at -- to be. The SNP and Thatcher pursuing policies such as | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
low corporation tax, could we have independence, but in the style of | :13:16. | :13:22. | |
Bacher? Plenty of people in the SNP are on the right. -- in the style | :13:22. | :13:28. | |
of Margaret Thatcher. The SNP would say it is a left-of-centre party. | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
But much of her inheritance has take -- has been taken up by the | :13:33. | :13:41. |