05/05/2013 Sunday Politics Scotland


Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr with analysis of the local election results, including interviews with Grant Shapps and Saddiq Khan, and what next for UKIP with Godfrey Bloom.

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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.


The so-called clowns had the last laugh in Thursday's local elections


and now claim to be changing the shape of British politics. We'll be


asking what next for Nigel Farage's UKIP. Where next for David Cameron?


He's talking to a lot of men in white coats. Means they must all


have gone to Eton. We'll get the thoughts of former party Chairman,


David Davis. And how did young Edward fair?


Average. And must do better, say some Labour folk. We'll be asking


one of his biggest supporters why And coming up on Sunday Politics


Scotland: What would Scotland stand to gain or lose on an international


stage in the event of a "yes" vote in next year's independence


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1785 seconds


There are not many people with a coal miner in the Cabinet. The idea


is that we get people in improvement in the country through


the passion that we have. Let us see what we're in a couple of


years' time. How did Labour fear? Not as well as they might have


hoped. Labour picked up 291 council seats. That is only winning back


what they lost in 2009. That was when Gordon Brown was very


unpopular. That translated into gains in just two county councils.


That was Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire. They hoped to take


Staffordshire but that was dashed. They fell well short of the 350


seats predicted. Some said that they should have won on the basis


of local by-election promises. The national vote share was 29%. That


is 9% down from 2012. Only the same as their actual results in 2010.


On this project at national share of the vote, Labour polled 29%.


That is what Gordon Brown got in 2010. Those results in at 2010 were


for the entire country. No elections in Scotland, only


Anglesey in Wales, no elections in London that is what we have been


those percentages today. We did remarkable things in Government


between 2007 and 2010. But we lost tens of thousands of members. We


lost thousands of activists. We lost thousands of councillors. We


were hollowed out by 2010. We tried to rebuild. We persuaded new


members to become activists and to stand for a council in shire


elections were historically we have done very well. You gained 200 and


windy -- 291 this week. You have just came back the losses that you


lost in one of the biggest losses in Labour's history. You have to


remember that you have to build back from the hollow out. We had no


ministers and some of these areas. We recruited a new members. We lost


MPs in 2010. We turned members into activists and persuaded them to


stand for council elections and had remarkable gains. We won


councillors in seats that we are looking for it in at 2015. We did


well in Stevenage, Carlisle, Crawley, we were in Lincoln. We're


wanting to win backing these areas in 2015. He did well in the South


and you did reasonably well in others. -- you did well in some


areas, but all West Sussex and some areas of the South you didn't even


come second, you came third. With respect, Andrew, we have over run


these councils. You came third! Look at Harlow. Look how we did in


Stevenage. We won seats in Dorset, for God's sake, he's a shire


council elections. For a so-called One nation party you came third in


some of these areas. People have been recruited since May 2010 and


have been persuaded to become active and stand and they have won.


You didn't even do that well in the North. In 1981 you want lots under


Michael Foot. Under Ed Miliband did not win a lot of those. If the


lesson you are trying to teach me is that it is good to have


superficial winds in county council elections, that is not true. --


superficial winds. We have new policies that can persuade people


to get lost trust in 2015. If you look at the results on Thursday,


where we needed to do well, we did remarkably well. We would have


liked to have won more seats, but to have this one term and have


these games we're very pleased. Miliband claims that the centre is


moving left and he is moving with it. These elections give no grounds


for that belief. And it Ed Miliband you were out of touch with public


opinion. The reality is, the vote for UKIP wasn't just moving right.


You were four points ahead. there are elections in Scotland,


Wales, and in London. I except that we have to do better than we are.


But the reason that people voted for UKIP was because people think


that politicians have the answer is there it for the problems that they


face. They can see that their wages are not rising as fast as their


inflation is going. We're persuading people who vote and do


not vote that we can make a positive difference to their life.


I think Ed Miliband has shown in the last two years that he can do


that. Can you just clarify it, you will not offer an in or out


referendum on Europe? We think... Will you offer a referendum between


now and the next election? That is way above Mike pay grade to draft a


manifesto for at 2015. I can say that in May 2013 will were not -


but we will not be promising a referendum. I am asking if you will


offer a referendum between now and the general election, yes or no?


Above my pay grade. You're in the shadow Cabinet. I cannot see what


will be in the manifesto, but I can see just like that that it -- David


Cameron, it is foolish of Alex Salmond to say that he would have


that referendum. It beats to uncertainty and it is madness.


is 11:30pm. You're watching The Hello and welcome to Sunday


Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme:


Scotland's role on the world stage - an independent voice in the


community of nations or staying part of the UK power base, maybe


with an increased role? We will debate what we could gain or lose.


We will look at how Scotland can help its farmers.


And enter the clowns and fruitcakes - UKIP have the last laugh as their


political opponents eat their words, but could their English election


earthquake be felt here in Scotland?


There are just 500 days left until the big decision on Scotland's


future. Much of the debate this week has been on international


affairs. If it is a "no", Scotland would continue to be represented in


the world as part of the UK. A "yes" vote would mean Scotland


speaking for itself. Would Scotland lose its diplomatic clout or would


it gain from having its own voice? Glenn Campbell has been taking


soundings at the United Nations in Scotland is good at making a big


noise in the Big Apple at least once a year. The annual Tartan Day


parade brings a touch of Caledonian colour to 6th Avenue. But if there


was a "yes" vote Scotland would need to make itself heard in New


York. And that would be all year round. They would be a member of


the United Nations. How would Scollan secure its own voice and


its own fault here? Scotland would be very welcome at the un. It is


highly in favour of self- determination. -- UN. If it is


consensual. I do not see trouble in that, but it is a process that


needs to be gone through. They should be backing to smooth the


path towards a vote. Two-thirds of countries would need to support it.


With the approval of other countries Scotland would become the


world's 194th seed. It would sit next to Saudi Arabia and its


nearest neighbour Senegal. That is where it would be alphabetically,


but how would it established itself diplomatically? It would need to


form alliances and partnerships, even the UK cannot do without those.


The impact that the UK has would be lost to Scotland but Scotland would


be speaking with the voice of Scotland. It would have to


establish the impact through the performance of its individuals at


the High Representative level, that's very important. So small


countries need big hitters. The man who represents Europe's newest UN


member is this man. We must recognise realities and to be


realistic. We need to have in mind our national priorities and the


strategies. Then you have to select. Any country can apply for a stint


on the most powerful body. Here on the security panel, United Kingdom


is one of a small number with a presence. Here at the veto


decisions on War and Peace. In the event of Scottish independence, be


UK Government says it would continue to occupy its seat here.


But if that is legally accurate, we did also be politically acceptable


to other countries? -- would it. That would depend on the nuclear


submarine fleet being kept by David Cameron it in the event of Scottish


independence. Foreign affairs committees say that the UK's place


in the international order would be questioned. Otherwise this seasoned


observer thinks that the UK would keep its clout. Some would say that


Britain has changed, but in the case of the Soviet Union and Russia,


Russia all these they became a smaller entity, -- all fiercely,


but I think the President is there and sit. As long as you were the


official holder of bats eat it is your has no matter what you sizes.


-- of that seat. Mb -- in the event of independence Scotland would be


the newest member. And it would be the challenge to make its own way


in the world. Joining me now from our Edinburgh


studio is the former leader of the Liberal Democrats Sir Mingis


Campbell, a member of Westminster's Foreign Affairs Committee who co-


wrote this week's report. And with me in the studio is one of the


SNP's members of the European Parliament, Alyn Smith. He has


lectured in Europe's capitals about the role of an independent Scotland


on the world stage. Alyn Smith, it you recognise that the UK gets to


inherit everything? Do you think Scotland would say it was a Co


equal state? I think there is a matter of debate but we are no new


thing in regards the United Nations. We are also an ancient democracy


and nation. We are re-establishing ourselves within the world


environment. This is as getting into the United Nations as Scotland,


as ourselves. When you talk about Scotland becoming independent and


having a long history of being an independent nation, the agreement


was that we were Co people states in the beginning. Scotland is the


new entity as regards the United Nations. We're fighting for that in


the referendum. The cities of the UK in the eyes of other people as a


matter for the UK, not us. He seems quite relaxed about the United


Nations. How do you think it would proceed? But his effort was to


become independence. I think everybody is quite relaxed about


successful membership of the United Nations for Scotland. The body of


opinion expressed in that package seems pretty clear that the rest of


the United Kingdom would maintain the position of a permanent member


of the Security Council with that important right of veto. But I do


not think the United Nations would be the problem. As our report


represents areas contrary reports to the SNP. Where there might be a


fast track for or negotiation, there is no certainty that there


would be a fast track for Accession. Many people in the business


community believe it could be damaging to Scotland's interests. A


report is based on written evidence. You will find it all on page 62.


Some very distinguished professors of international relations and Lord


who came and gave witness. Including Jeremy Greenstock who we


saw in that package a moment or two ago. Let us stick with Pete UN


right now. -- with the UN right now. Do you not think it could provoke a


groundswell of opinion at the UN that the Security Council should be


reformed? France and Britain -- and the UK might need to give that seat


up. The question of reform of the Security Council has been on the


agenda since 1988. It never gets to the top of the agenda. A new


Security Council hat -- should have at 23 or 22 members. Any


constitutional change in the Charter of the United Nations would


depend on the United Kingdom's agreement. It remains a member of


the Security Council, so we do not see agreement being reached that


would have the effect of excluding the United Kingdom from that


position. Looking at the SNP's position, despite the talk about


Iraq and so-called legal war its -- wore as, giving that up would mean


that the rest of the UK would not be able to match what the rest of


the UK does anyway. We would be able to set our own priorities and


articulate the more on the world stage. The idea that the UK is also


acting in our interests is not the case, I do not think. In Brussels


and see that the UK line and attitude is markedly different to


her Scotland would do this. Just last week Our Home Secretary, and


she is Our Home Secretary, flirted with the idea of getting rid of


human rights. The idea that the UK it is representing, I do not think


it is a failed state, but I do think we could do it better. Do you


think it could be done better with than the United Kingdom? The report


suggests an increased role for Scotland on the international stage


but remembering -- but remaining part of the United Kingdom. I would


say that that is delusional. International relations is binary,


you are a member state or you were not. You can do all sorts of things


with devolution, but the fact is, door at the top table or you were


not. The whole point about independence is that we get to set


our priorities and articulate them in various corners of the world.


The UN needs reform, of Eastleigh, but we cannot put forward any of


these points as anything but an independent state. With Labour, or


Liberal Democrats and the SNP have increased the role of Scotland on


the world stage. Absolutely and that will continue. Scotland has


always been distinctive. But since the reforms of 1999, we have been


able to give voice to that different politics. The more that


continues and the more different we become, if we're on the right path.


This is pretty much unstoppable. How much of this we did you have


been putting that point in about increasing the role of Scotland's


voice through the prism of the UK diplomatic affairs, a kind of


federal structure when it comes to the international stage? I chaired


a commission on behalf of the Liberal Democrats which made


exactly that point. It was about the possibility of a federal


relationship but when Scotland and the rest of United Kingdom. And


also the possibility of an overall federal solution for the United


Kingdom's. But the reference to the board has, they were heavily


affected to by the introduction of quotas. That is in America. It was


all problem about cashmere goods. The reason that that was headed off


was because the United Kingdom was able to go to the European Union


and the strength of both bodies at the World Trade Organisation made


sure that Scotland did not suffer - - which it would have done much


Let's that put that 0.2 Alan Smith. How would Scotland Act on the world


stage? You always have to select your key issues but it is a very


crowded marketplace. Look at the way we have been able to lead by


example in terms of leading -- setting world leading climate


change targets. You set your priorities and build alliances. She


speaks about the EU intervening on or a half but we still have that as


the Scottish member of the European Union. That is about what our


priorities are and how we determine them and articulate them. Many


smaller countries than us around Europe. Talk to them about


independence and the just understand it. What we're going to


debate and vote on and 2014 is that we can do this better. I do not


think the UK is a failed state but we could do an awful lot better.


could do a lot better than smaller states could move more quickly and


focus on key issues? You will not be surprised to hear me say, not


for the first time, that I think we are better together, but I think it


might give us the influence of a state like Cyprus or Slovenia,


which I think detracts from the influence of the United Kingdom.


The United Kingdom has a very sophisticated network of posts and


ambassadors around the world. Scotland would not have access to


that. When you take the issue of something like Scotch whisky and


the importance of ensuring that is not subject to tariffs which make


it difficult to export, then it is that over all diplomatic influence


and a nationally which will serve us best. It will be a long time


before it reaches the peak status of Whitehall. Thank you both.


Scottish farmers have been left suffering by the atrocious weather


conditions The NFU say almost 34,000 dead sheep had to be


collected from the hills after the winter storms. This comes after the


miserable, wet summer. As Laura Maxwell reports, a �6 million aid


package has been announced by the Scottish government.


March 2012, and spring was picture- perfect. Temperatures soared to 23


Celsius. March 2013 was a different picture with blizzards bringing


down phone lines and cutting of entire communities four days.


got up to another group just further up... Its in the claim


clear of their where other victims were animals buried alive.


Thousands of young lambs and sheep were lost. We are unable to get to


most of these chic. My losses and in the region of 200 or 250 lambs.


It is huge financially. Even before the snow thought, the Government


promised have a million pounds to help remove dead livestock from the


hills, and this week �6 million worth of aid has been announced


targeted at those affected by the recent snow. We can meet in the


coming days to look at how we can help the rest of the sector. The


cost may be into tens of millions of pounds but we're still measuring


the cost of the impact of the weather. It comes at the end of


what has been a very difficult year. There was bricked in the Western


Isles, sandstorms have covered fields, and in the Borders flooding.


The weather has piled on the pressure. For most, the continual


rain has been the overriding problem ruining many crops last


year and making sewing this year very tricky. It has been totally


impossible here to so any cereals. You always hope it will be a good


year next year and that keep you going but it invariably is not. You


are always hoping for. 2013 has been at devastating year for some


of Scotland's livestock farmers and it is not looking much better for


their arable counterparts. It is a waiting game to see if it will warm


up and the rain will stop for warm enough for Scotland's farmers to


see any signs of growth. I'm now joined in the studio by Nigel


Miller, President of the National Farmers Union in Scotland. You are


a farmer yourself, what has it been a like for you? You a piece was a


very good overview of the climate and this has been that the Perfect


Storm but it has gone on for I year and it has impacted on every sector.


We did a survey in the winter and even then we knew it was bad,


probably more than 80% of farmers had 20% less fodder than usual and


when it came to winter crops, 30% had not managed to sow their usual


quota. That was not a good position to be in with money running out. We


had to renegotiate. A pretty difficult year and then going into


2013, probably the coldest March on records. They're really


overwhelming storm for a couple of days and then a difficult April as


well. 2013 will not be a good year whatever we do now. We heard in the


report the �6 million aid package from the Scottish government. How


will you ensure that is targeted at the people that need it most?


a lifeline and hopefully a bridge to help people get to the summer


weather. The figures and the last few days say that of a 700 million


has been stepped out in the UK terms, so it is not a huge amount


of money but we think if we can target those businesses and farmers


that have taken significant hits, and this is the kind of farm that


might have lost 30% of their potential production, we can pause


the spiralled downwards to give them a platform to become


stabilised. These businesses will not begin to recover until 2014.


the �6 million proportionate to what Scottish farmers contribute?


In many ways, we have a very close relationship with the land. A big


part of the economy, we underpin the biggest manufacturing sector,


food, and that generates millions of exports. It is very important


and I think the Government has recognised that importance and the


partnership the Government has with the food sector and farming shows


how important it is to maintain, not just for food security but also


to develop our industry and exports. It has been a sad and difficult


time for farmers, perhaps difficult to detach yourself emotionally, but


it is heavily subsidised. Many in this these would look on and say


you received a lot of government support, is that there? This is the


comet that comes up fairly often and the reality is the whole of


Europe supports us quite heavily. They do it in different ways and it


is about underpinning a core part of production. It is one thing that


is vital for the whole of life and we are looking at doubling food


needs over the next 20 years and that is extraordinary. Unless we


look after the basic structure, we are going to find that food


security becomes not just something we talk about but something that


actually impacts on us every day. The Scottish government is setting


up a working group with the industry. What might be discuss?


That will be on Wednesday and it will be about targeting money to


actually identify the ad is we know that the storms hit. We are also


looking at other parts of Scotland where we know there have been


significant issues. The mental health of farmers as critical as


well? I have had a lot of members on the phone and these sort of


losses are not easy to handle on the last year has not been easy.


With the financial pressure, it is not easy and one of the telling


factors is knowing that it is difficult going out and having to


work until 10pm at night and being unsure. This package is a lifeline


for people like that. Now time for the news.


Nigel Evans, the deputy Speaker of the House of Commons has said that


allegations of sexual assault against him are completely false.


He was released on bail last night after being questioned by police


for several hours. Nigel Evans was questioned until


late last night by police and emerged from his home this morning


to a make this statement. I was interviewed by the police


concerning two complaints, one of which dates back four years, made


by two people who are well known to each other and who until yesterday


I regarded as friends. The complaints are completely false and


they cannot understand why they have been made especially as I have


continued to socialise with one as recent play as last week. He was


arrested yesterday and questioned on suspicion of sexual assault. The


alleged victims are said to be men in their twenties and he was


released on bail. He was selected as MP for Ribble Valley back in


1992. He was elected as deputy Speaker in 2010. In the same year,


he came out as gay saying he did not want another light. His


colleague Philip Harman said a decision would have to be made


about his future. We should treat people as innocent until proven


guilty but it is difficult to carry out a high profile role under the


scrutiny. He says he will not be standing down and says it is


business as usual. The chairman of the BBC Trust has


rejected calls for a separate inquiry into the activities of


Stuart Hall at the BBC. He has admitted indecently assaulting 13


girls from the 1960s until the 1980s. Lord Patten said that


concerns about his behaviour could be dealt with by an inquiry already


been carried out by the BBC. Plainly, there was something about


the celebrity culture in the 1960s and 1980s which meant people turned


a blind eye to behaviour that was thoroughly unpleasant.


Syrian state television said the scientific research centre has been


hit by an Israeli missile strike. People in the area report hearing a


massive explosion over night. What more do we know about this. There


is very little hard information but what we can say fairly clearly is


that there was at least one enormous explosion on the north-


west edge of the city of Damascus. That is shown in footage posted on


the internet by activists. The question is what was actually hit.


The Syrian regime are saying it was a technical research institute.


They are saying that the different kinds of targets were hit. That


would be a bit surprising because Israel does not want to get


involved in the conflict. They want to prevent arms from being handed


over are coming through it and ran. What they're seeing off the record


is there going for rockets and missiles that there may what to


pass to his bluff. We are in the dark over what was actually hit.


There is duty showing what they say were targets there but it includes


things like chicken farms and some installations were not shown very


A former UK ambassador has told this programme that Scotland would


be welcome as a member state to the United Nations but it would have to


find its own way. Jeremy Greenstock said that the impact would be lost


to an independent Scotland that it has with the UK. It would be to


form alliances. The impact that the UK has would be lost to Scotland


but Scotland would be speaking with the voice of Scotland, it would


have the Scottish label. Impact would have to be established


through the performance of its individuals at a high


representative level. Two women died in a car crash yesterday.


They died at the scene of this car crash near Ely. One boy and one man


were also travelling by a car or and taken to hospital with serious


injuries. The boy was then taken to the Southern General hospital by


air ambulance in Glasgow. There were three games in the a SPL this


afternoon. Celtic's game is getting under way


now., Nick play host to Hibernian. It will be cloudy across western


Scotland. Rain will be light and patchy but become more persistent


two words North Argyll later. The best of the sunshine is in eastern


Scotland. Here we will see the highest temperatures, up to 18 or


19 Celsius. It is quite mild but also breezy especially along the


West coast. We will be back at 650 Thanks, Graham.


It was the revenge of the "clowns and fruitcakes", as UKIP's


political opponents had characterised them. A powerful


showing at this week's English local government elections means


the party's influence is on the increase, down south at least. But


what about the indirect impact in Scotland of UKIP's success story?


Our political correspondent Niall This one celebrated, the


Westminster mainstream were drowning their sorrows. UKIP's


success made Nigel Farage the toast of his party. It left the Tories


and Lib Dems crying into their beer. Instalment date struggle to make an


impression. -- in Scotland they have struggled to make an


impression. UKIP regularly finished last, in Edinburgh one of their


candidates did as well as this pink when. Does that mean that Scottish


people are up more pro-Europe than those down south? I don't think


there's the same antipathy to words the EU. We're not so worried about


the loss of English identity. There is an anti-European view in


Scotland but it is not one that UKIP are able to tap into. They


want independent from Europe, not independence in Europe. They say


that their numbers are at increasing its column because of


disillusionment with Alex Salmond and the SNP. He would like people


to think that we're going to govern our own country, but he is going to


move directly under the heel of Brussels. People are fed up with


the diktat from Brussels. That is coming across. You kept could do


drive the Tories of their seats in Europe in the next elections.


UKIP. We're confident that our support as well stand by us and we


are working hard to keep our supporters. We have heard about the


threat from UKIP in Scotland for a number of years, it has not


materialised. We believe we will keep her supporters by giving them


the best deals for Scotland. Despite strong results in local


elections in England and Wales on Thursday, but party seems farther


than ever to getting a foothold here in Holyrood. David Cameron's


commitment to hold a referendum on EU is widely seen as a reason to


vote for Conservatives. It is clear that David Cameron and a Tories are


running scared of UKIP. UKIP are all irrelevant thoughts to Scotland.


They are dragging Scollan to the exit door rope Europe whether we


want to go there are not, that is the Conservatives. The only


Scotland has choice is by choosing independence. Nigel Briers has an


image as an antidote to be elite of Westminster. So far that has not


won many votes from the North of the border. But scholars place in


the EU could still habits time cold. -- Scotland's.


I'm now joined here in the studio by Dr Nicola McEwen of Edinburgh


University's political department and the political commentator, Iain


McWhirter is in Edinburgh. What evidence is there to say that


Scotland is more pro-European? Scotland is not a nation of


Europhiles but there is about more it pro-European feeling here.


was recent evidence from a poll that asked exactly how it Scottish


people would vote if a referendum on the UK happened over whether to


withdraw from Europe or not. A comfortable majority favoured


staying within the European Union. That is different from polls that


take place in England. Do you agree with that? In the Sunday Herald


today UKIP say that it is a problem in that Scotland's big cities. It


is not. It is nothing like the antipathy towards immigration in


some areas south of the border. Similarly, there is not the


opposition to Europe. You do not have the transmission belts but


that sort of Euro-scepticism in Scotland because the Tories are


largely politically a relevant here and UKIP has made no progress


whatsoever. It will upset the balance if you like of the whole


debate over independence in Scotland, because the presumption


this father has always been, you heard it from Sir Menzies Campbell


earlier in this programme, that the SNP would damage staying in the EU,


Scotland might be thrown out as a consequence of a voting "yes" in


the referendum. But Scotland could find itself out of the EU by


remaining with the UK. In the 2014, a few months before the referendum,


we had the European elections. On this showing, UKIP are going to win


it. England are put at just lurching to the right. -- are


perhaps. I think UKIP will do well in the EU elections, it is their


turf. So close to the referendum it will have an impact, but it is hard


to see how it will have an impact. A lot depends on the parties that


lose as a result of that. If a Labour Party holds up then it could


make a UK election victory for them in at 2015 a little more likely.


That potentially makes the union more attractive. On the other hand,


if all of the mainstream parties do badly at UKIP's expense, the union


looks less attractive for Scottish people. If Labour do well in people


were think that the Conservatives will not be in power for too long.


Could that have an influence in the referendum? It could but I think we


will hear some quite Euro-sceptic noises from Labour in the next few


months as well. They realise they cannot afford to stand aside from


what is quite clearly a tide of opinion south of the border. Not


only in terms of Europe, also on welfare reform, immigration, things


like a gay marriage. We're seeing political culture south of the


border moving quite rapidly towards the right. We have always -- we


have already had Theresa May discussing that human rights might


need to be suspended. We already have tighter immigration policies


coming under way. And there is also this welfare reform agenda which


has not been popular north of the border. Looking at this question a


of Europe, perhaps we in Scotland ignore it slightly because we're so


focused on independence. Yes, the focus on the you low mac has so far


been about whether an independent Scotland would be entitled to join


so far. -- EU. But this does take us on two issues of substance. If


we look at the UK withdrawing from the European Union, that would


create enormous challenges for Scotland whether it was independent


or not. If you were looking at a vision of the independence that in


bed sit in the British Isles, looking at a shared labour market


and currency, that creates really big difficulties if you were


looking at being within the European Union but the rest of the


UK not being. What you make of that? Are we ignoring the European


question to her detriment? I do not think it is being a ignored. Most


of the last 12 months Europe has been the dominant issue in the


referendum campaign. That is ever since Alex Salmond suggested that


he had legal advice saying that Scotland would remain as a


succession state. That was not quite the case. That is a different


aspect, though. A different aspect from what? The debate about Alex


Salmon to and the regulation on the Europe and so on. That is ignoring


the UK debate on Europe. I am saying that that is how the you


appear debate has been conducted north of the border. Clearly the


UKIP advance is going to hold to that very significantly. As far as


the case for Scotland remaining in de EU, most Scott was should people


probably go along with that. -- most Scottish people. I do not


think there is a huge demand for Scotland to be removed. There was


an issue over fisheries which still continues to rankle in the North


East but I do not think it is anything like the issue it was


before. It is not because Scottish people are hugely enthusiastic


about Europe, it is just that you look at opinion polls only about 6%


of Scottish people see it as the most important issue in any


election. It does not have the same political resonance as you see


south of the border. We only to leave it there.


Now, a leading Scottish QC has set out a number of proposals to


radically reform the Scottish justice system. Writing in The Sun,


Derek Ogg says his blueprint is controversial but it will help


ensure fairness. He wants to see the three traditional Scottish


verdicts - guilty, not guilty, not proven - replaced with just proven


or not proven. Rationally, he says, a juror can not say "not guilty".


The most they can say is that beyond reasonable doubt a case has


been proved or not proven. There is a suggestion to cut the size of


juries from the present 15 members down to 10. The majority verdict


would be kept at 8 though. Jurors would also be allowed to access the


internet as they have no legal training and should be allowed to


research the subject matter. His biggest fear is that corroboration


could be axed. The QC says it is an The Scottish Government have given


us this response. We welcome any plans to improve the efficiency of


Scotland's Court, we are trying to create a more modern justice system


that is fair and efficient. Joining me now in the studio is


Derek Ogg QC. It is a controversial move. Is it fair for someone to


move out of court when they have had a not guilty verdict, not


proven leaves a cloud of suspicion. Not really. I really think we all


know that we're not proven. If everyone understands that that


means not guilty, been everybody does understand that if they walk


out of the Crown Prosecution and the Crown Prosecution has not


maintained their case against them, there are not guilty. The changing


the meaning of these verdicts is that explains better to a jury what


they're there to do. There are not there to look into somebody's heart


or conscience, they cannot do that. There are not there to remember


what happened, they were not there. But the at their to say that the


case that has been brought in front of them, I be satisfied?


Prosecutors are being told to prove that beyond reasonable doubt. Has


that been done? It easy for it proved orators not proved. -- it is


either a proved or it is not proved. What about lowering the number of


Jura as? He would save �0.5 million simply in administrative costs to


start with. A smaller number gives that number more time to talk about


issues. It simply is a more manageable number. I would say in


Scotland, if you go to the beginning of the jury system around


the 12th century. There was no fixed number of forgeries then. It


was always just locals who were a Why are you making these comments


now do? The reason I make the comments now it is because of a


number of things combining together. The idea we can do away with


corroboration which is the biggest safeguard in Scots law. There is no


duty in minor cases but still in serious cases. The corroboration


issue is there. The case with Chris Huhne where the dewy word this


charged because the asked too many questions which the lawyer said


where rather silly questions. They were mocked for wanting to make


inquiry. The jury system is valuable and important to us but we


want to bring it up to date and modernise it. That includes having


access to the Internet, even a website dedicated to the particular


trial they are involved in, and what are some of the consequences


of Scots law and self defence and provocation and acting together


with others. Briefly, do you have support from legal colleagues?


There is an appetite amongst the legal profession for reform.


Now in a moment, we'll be discussing what's making news in


politics at Holyrood this week and next, but first, let's take a look


back at the Week in 60 seconds. Three soldiers from the Royal


Regiment of Scotland where killed in Afghanistan went a vehicle was


hit by a roadside bomb. Westminster's Foreign Affairs


Committee say the UK's international status would suffer


if Scotland became independent. Scotland's most senior prosecutor


criticised the UK Business Secretary Vince Cable after he


called for a quick decision on the prosecution of former bosses are at


the Royal Bank of Scotland. The Scotch Whisky Association lost


a legal challenge against government plans to introduce


minimum unit price things. decision to appeal should not come


up as a surprise. They should respect the democratic decision of


these Scottish Parliament. Douglas Alexander said Scotland


needs to find ways to disagree with it being disagreeable ahead of the


independence referendum. That was the week that was. Let's


now focus on the big stories and check out the week ahead.


This week we have Peter McMahon from the Scotsman and the


journalist and author Kirsty Scott. Thank you for joining us. Updike


issue this week has been the on line rolling story after Susan


Carmen was heavily criticised online. A story here about


nationalism and fascism in Scotland on Sunday. For this is a very


worrying that element. To have a debate in Scotland about


independence and the constitutional future, it has to be conducted in a


way that allows people to express strong views but where they are not


vilified on either side. The point was made by Fiona Hyslop that if


you mention Scotland on Sunday, up a column today praises Douglas


Alexander and cost are exactly the same thing. We have to have that


and we have to have a civilised debate and cannot have trolling on


end the side. Both sides are keen to point out that their victims are


of this kind of behaviour. Most it is not fair to say that most of it


is coming from the nationalist side. Nicholas Budgen said she had death


threats so it is getting to a worrying level. It has always been


there but it has built. It was a pretty bad couple of weeks for the


Yes campaign in terms of currency and foreign affairs. A lot of


issues they were on the back but about and he tends to see then that


when people are just actually reporting, the end up having


horrendous abuse targeted at them. They are just doing their jobs and


back-up lot columns today are saying, line in the sand, this has


to stop now. This kind of French is not doing anyone any favours.


you see this behaviour stopping? I'd like to think it will. --


fringe. You would hope perhaps that when senior figures in the SNP and


the Labour Party speak out about it that those who are doing this might


listen. What we have to do is focus on doing our jobs as journalists,


presenting these stories as they come along. We should be analysing


policies. We have to try and make sure it is a proper debate. That


does not mean that people cannot have very strongly held views but


we must be able to express them without these kinds of people


intimidating them. We have always prided ourselves on being a


tolerant nation. It is important to point out that some people within


the SNP are getting similar abuse. Andrew Wilson is getting some


hassle on line as a nationalist for complementing Douglas Alexander!


Let's move on to the issue of UK it. Nigel Farage was in the Sunday


Herald today with a clown's red nose. It is possibly been


overstated. The media are very caught up in it but two-thirds of


people who could what did not vote. It was a resounding success for


them as they are but in terms of Scotland, we do not think they will


have the same impact. The say they are now heading north and hoping to


set up in cities up here. England at moves to the right, what


effect could that have on the independence referendum? I thought


she made a very interesting point which is what about if you have


independence where Scotland is tied to the pound Stirling currency and


then the UK opts out of the EU? Where does that leave Scotland or


any combination of Scotland voting for independence and then there is


a blot on the EU. That is a huge extra dimension and I am not quite


sure where they then stand on it in the SNP. Where they would stand on


the pounds Stirling if the UK was moving out of Europe. The SNP may


see it as quite handy to see that England is lurching to the right


but why then tie yourself into a shared currency? It raises as many


questions as answer has. What about the UKIP themselves making some


progress in Scotland? I do not think it is as big an issue and


when you look at where they did well in England it is particular ad


is where they have been talking of immigration. You cannot ignore


ordinary people's views that they have worries about it. I do not


think Scots necessarily are that different, it is just not as bigger


issue here. Up are Scots more pro- European than their English may be


as? I think so and we always have been and 10 to have an


Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr with the latest analysis of the local election results, including interviews with the Conservative Party chairman, Grant Shapps, former Tory frontbencher, David Davis and shadow justice secretary, Saddiq Khan. He also asks what next for UKIP with Godfrey Bloom MEP.