13/10/2013 Sunday Politics Scotland


13/10/2013

Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr are joined by the new Scottish secretary, Alistair Carmichael, Ken Clarke, Chris Huhne and Labour MP Diane Abbott.


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Transcript


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Morning, folks. Welcome to the veritable pot pourri that is this

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morning's Sunday Politics Stakes. We'll have the new Scottish

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Secretary, Alistair Carmichael. We'll be asking him what ease got

:00:47.:00:50.

that his predecessor, Michael Moore hasn't.

:00:50.:00:58.

Like a Duracell bunny, Ken Clarke just keeps going and going. He'll be

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banging his drum for Europe. Free of the shackles of government,

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former Energy Secretary Chris Huhne will be with us. We'll be asking him

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for the inside scoop. And Diane Abbott will be joining us

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too. That nasty Ed Miliband sent her packing last week. We'll find out

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why. And on Sunday Politics Scotland, 25

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years on from the iconic single Letter From America, we revisit the

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industrial heartlands and ask, is Scottish industry still no more?

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a job but failed miserably, Mick watt, Miranda Green Andijan an

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Ganesh. They'll Tweet like mad as if their lives depended on it

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throughout the programme. Is Ed Miliband's Labour Party moving

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to the left or right? Last week, a chid owe Cabinet reshuffle was seen

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a a shift to the lot of. Two have announced policy changes which could

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indicate he moved back to the middle. New shadows Work and

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Pensions Secretary Rachel Reeves says Labour will be tougher on the

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Tories. While Tristram Hunt says Labour loves Tory-style free schools

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after all. Here he is on the BBC earlier this morning.

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I've one message for you and viewers. If you are a group of

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parents, social entrepreneurs, teachers, interested in setting up a

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school in areas where you need new school place, the Labour Government

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will be on your side. That's free schools. We are in favour of

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enterprise and innovation. It will schools. We are in favour of

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be in areas of need. We have a school places crisis going on. It

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will have properly qualified school places crisis going on. It

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teachers in these schools. And thirdly, systems of financial

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accountability. What is going on with the Al Madina school is because

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of terrible mistakes with Michael Gove's policy.

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I'm not sure if the policies have changed, the change of tone is

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remarkable, both on welfare and free schools. A significant change of

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tone. It was interesting the reshuffle on the Labour frontbench

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last week was init wered as a purge of Blair rights. It seemed to be a

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purge of anti-reform thinking. Rachel Reeves was not saying anythi

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different on substance but saying Labour will be tough than the Tories

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on welfare. You've seen that clip from Tristram, free schools will be

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allowed to be set up in areas of need. Greater oversight. But a

:03:44.:03:50.

completely different change of tone, we are on the side of parents and

:03:50.:03:55.

social entrepreneurs who want to set these up. A different change. Why

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are they doing this? On education, so far the debate has been

:04:02.:04:07.

polarised. You've had the Michael Gove uber reformers in the

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department. This weekend, we've had leaked memos from one of Michael

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Gove's advisers which are extreme views about the state of education.

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And on the other side teaching unions. It hasn't led to a healthy

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debate which represents what parents want out of schools or employers.

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This is a huge move from the Labour Party to sound more reasonable. They

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have been silent on education which is a huge policy area on the left.

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Is this a focus group-driven change? They've seen the polls. Welfare

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reforms are hugery popular and free schools for those who have them? You

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only apiece the focus groups by changing the policy substantially. I

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always thought a test for this Labour reshuffle was not whether Ed

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Miliband would promote Blair rights, it is clear he did, it is whether

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they would be allowed to be Blair rights. When Stephen Twigg carried

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the education portfolio it was clear his own views were closer to the

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Government than he was allowed to let on. He was constrained. There is

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no point of giving Tristram Hunt this job if he is not allowed to say

:05:22.:05:26.

what he thinks. I wouldn't mind betting privately he thinks free

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schools should be available beyond just areas of need. He hasn't yet

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defined need. It could be, we've run out of places or the existing

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schools are so bad we need schools. If that is it, it is the same Asics

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itsing Government policy. In they are in schools rated as

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unsatisfactory that's no different. He wanted to say he was in favour of

:05:57.:06:01.

higher educational standards and rigour, he had to tell the audience

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he has a Cambridge PhD to attack Michael Gove. That was difficult for

:06:07.:06:10.

Tristram Hunt he had to mention that. Is that worth something, a PhD

:06:10.:06:19.

from Cambridge? Obviously to him it is. He said they would demand proper

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teaching qualifications. That could count him out. He does some

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teaching? Independent schools do not have to have teachers with formal

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teaching qualifications. I've never been to one? What about you? That

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decision by Michael Gove to allow free schools to employ nonunionised

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and non-trained people, so he has to say that.

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Watch this space. The dust settled after the party resufficients. Do

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the Tories look a bit more like Britain. Do the Tories look more

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like Labour? Here's guiles. #4 With reshuffles, you're never

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really certain. There's whispers, rumours, guesses. But the only way

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to know it is underway is keeping beady eyes on a front door. Up until

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now, the only way we knew who was in and who was out was who came walking

:07:26.:07:30.

down this bit of Downing Street with a smile on their face after going to

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see the boss. The once who are to be sacked, they usually go round the

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back. Not this time. No, something new alerted us all. The-PM started

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it. It was an extraordinary day. I can't remember a triple decker

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reshuffle where you've three parties changing ministerial teams at the

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same time. The fact is that resufficient happened on Twitter.

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Not that the press stopped watching the door as well. News was a bit

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slow in coming until Alastair Charmichael replaced Michael Moore,

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the first to be pounced on. I'm disappointed to be leaving office

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now but pleased at what I've been able to achieve in the last couple

:08:13.:08:18.

of years. Not as pleased as one imagines as the man receiving the

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welcome that went on, and on and on... And on... And on!

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#4 The welcomer, who was simultaneously having Jeremy Browne,

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in a sense seen off the premises of the Home Office in conspiracy to let

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Norman Baker sing a tune. the Home Office in conspiracy to let

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# Blowing hi Jude through a traffic cone... # #.

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The brutality of the Liberal Democrats. We tend to think they are

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herbivorous. Sacking a Cabinet Minister, another minister, Jeremy

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Browne. By lunch time, the Tory ranks were shifting too. The PM keen

:09:06.:09:11.

to boost the numbers of telegenic women walking into Government and

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turning perceptions around. He tipped a so-called flatcap to men

:09:13.:09:18.

from the north or more humble backgrounds with room for some which

:09:18.:09:23.

fitted neither label but are friends of George Osborne. And, all the

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while, those new Tory ministers were learning of Labour's changes. Labour

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too knows the value of new young blood striding into the limelight.

:09:34.:09:38.

Again some with TV experience of that. Tristram Hunt and Gloria de

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peer row would be hard to describe as hard left. But Blairbrushing the

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past out of the picture seemed to be the name of the day. Liam Byrne

:09:49.:09:56.

moved from higher profile roles. With Diane Abbott also gone, was

:09:56.:09:59.

this really a Blair right cull? It depends what you mean. Blair right

:09:59.:10:01.

used to mean someone who wanted Tony depends what you mean. Blair right

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Blair to be leader of the Labour Party. Somebody who worked closely

:10:05.:10:08.

with him. Now it means sometimes people who believe in a certain set

:10:08.:10:13.

of ideologyies or ideas. There are still very much those kind of Blair

:10:13.:10:18.

rights within the party. But we are seeing the group around Tony Blair

:10:18.:10:22.

are not long assassin flew enjoys as they once were. By evening, it was

:10:22.:10:28.

over. New bees were sharing the spoils of winner while ousted

:10:28.:10:33.

ministers quietly thanked commits raters. Or -- commiserators. Or one

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angry ex-wife bemoaned their dismissal.

:10:42.:10:46.

Disappointment in politics is disified. How much much someone

:10:46.:10:49.

standing here might want it to be the case, you are unlikely to get

:10:49.:10:56.

someone coming out of that do going "how could." And running off crying!

:10:56.:11:03.

And the brand, spanking new Scottish Secretary Alastair Charmichael joins

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us from Orkney on a line that hasn't been used since the fleet was used

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in the outbreak of World War I! I wasn't around at the time. I'm

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hearing you loud and clear. Why have you agreed to run a department? That

:11:21.:11:29.

you wanted to abolish six years ago? Hello? Maybe our connections are not

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so great after all. Alastair Charmichael. Can you hear me? I can

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hear you now. There was a nasty second there where you disappeared.

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Let me try the question again. Why have you agreed to run a department

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you wanted to abolish six years ago? Because this is the, probably one of

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the most important jobs in British politics at the moment. To ensure

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that Scotland remains part of the UK. Even when I was talking about

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the reconfiguration of rep sen Taigs of Scotland -- representation of

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Scotland within Whitehall, there was always a job to be done. That is

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true in spades now. I will focus on making sure the UK Government has a

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real voice in that debate. What have you that Michael Moore didn't have?

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Look, I think Michael Moore did an excellent job. The work he did

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delivering the Edinburgh agreement to ensure we got a proper, fair,

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clear legal and decisive referendum, the work delivering extra powers to

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the Scottish Parliament was a substantial piece of work. I'm not

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comparing myself to Michael. He's a friend of mine. I will say that as

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we go forward into this, this is now about the actual debate itself. I

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will be putting the case, with some passion, I hope, for Scotland to

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remain part of the UK. This isn't just some abstract debate about

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nationhood, sovereignty, this is a real debate about people's jobs,

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their livelihoods, the cost of their mortgage. That and an awful lot

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more. For that, I relish the challenge. I understand that. But if

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you're being put in there to save the union, every pole has the no --

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poll has the no campaign margin alley ahead. Mr Moore was doing

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pretty well to save the union. I suspect you've been given the job to

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save the Liberal Democrats in Scotland? And lieu, you misread the

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situation if you -- Andrew, you misread the situation new think

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anybody is going to be the person who will save the union. The people

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who will save the union are the people of Scotland if they turn out

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next year and vote to save the union. We have to put the case for

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that. That is what I will be doing. Look at the position of your own

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party. You came fourth in the last Scottish parentry elections. You

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party. You came fourth in the last were even behind the Conservatives.

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The latest poll has you still in fourth. Are you there because you're

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a bruiser and you will pep up the Liberal Democrats opportunity in

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Scotland. If I had a pound for everybody to referred to me as being

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Scotland. If I had a pound for a bruiser, I wouldn't need to be

:14:28.:14:33.

sitting here this morning. I could have retired by now. The truth of

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this, if I can address it once and for all, I have done probably one of

:14:37.:14:43.

the most complex and subtle jobs in British politics for the last

:14:43.:14:46.

three-and-a-half years, Liberal Democrat Chief Whip in a Coalition

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Government. I would not have survived in that job a week, let

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alone three-and-a-half years, if I was the sort of person who went

:14:53.:14:57.

around picking unnecessary fights. So, can we just please forget about

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this business about being a bruiser. As far as the position of the party

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in the polls, this is true also of the referendum vote, opinion polls

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in the polls, this is true also of are a snapshot. They are not a

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prediction of what will happen in the future. I will be out there

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putting the case. Neither the next election nor the referendum is one

:15:19.:15:23.

or lost yet. One of the things I really want to be guarding against

:15:23.:15:28.

is the complacency which says because we are a good margin ahead

:15:28.:15:33.

today, 12 months out from the actual polling day, that it is in the bag.

:15:33.:15:35.

today, 12 months out from the actual Believe me, Andrew, it is not. As

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you know, wasn't for the Liberal Democrats. Not just talking about

:15:43.:15:46.

the polls. You came fourth in the real poll in the Scottish

:15:46.:15:51.

Parliamentary elections. You said you were happy to facial

:15:51.:15:56.

ex-Salmond in a TV debade. Should David Cameron face him? I am happy

:15:56.:16:04.

ex-Salmond in a TV debade. Should to face anybody who wants to

:16:04.:16:09.

debate. Should David Cameron face him? No, because that allows Alex

:16:09.:16:17.

Salmond and the Scottish Nationalists to portray this as some

:16:17.:16:21.

sort of contest or choice between a vision of Scottish social democracy

:16:22.:16:26.

and English conservativism, which it is not. This is a debate that has to

:16:26.:16:31.

be held in Scotland about the future of Scotland amongst Scots. David

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Cameron has a very important part in Scotland's public life, but he is

:16:39.:16:44.

not Scottish and I think he will accept Commies edit himself in fact,

:16:44.:16:48.

the person who should be debating with Alex Salmond is Alistair

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Darling. He has got a Scottish name and his family hails from the

:16:54.:16:58.

wealthiest of Scotland at some stage in the past. Anyway, you described

:16:58.:17:05.

the campaign to keep the union together as lacking passion, were

:17:05.:17:11.

you referring to the campaign or Alistair Darling? I was not

:17:11.:17:18.

referring to Alistair Darling. I think what I was saying is that as

:17:18.:17:25.

we move into this new stage, and Alistair Darling said it himself, we

:17:25.:17:32.

are now campaigning for people 's hearts because if you look at the

:17:32.:17:38.

range of papers the Government has published, it is pretty clear the

:17:38.:17:44.

arguments lie in relation to the head. I am not giving up the battle

:17:44.:17:54.

for the hearts and Scotland because there is a good strong case, as

:17:55.:17:59.

somebody who is proud to be Scottish and to be British, for Scotland to

:17:59.:18:05.

remain part of the UK. You come from an island that has eight

:18:05.:18:10.

distilleries and I understand you haven't even had a single

:18:10.:18:15.

celebratory drink for your new post. Not a drop has touched my lips. Not

:18:16.:18:23.

supporting local business! I will be making up for lost time on the 1st

:18:23.:18:28.

of November, I will be doing it in aid of Macmillan Cancer care and if

:18:28.:18:32.

anybody wants to go to their website, they can donate. It is

:18:32.:18:37.

worthwhile. I cannot think of a better cause. One Cabinet minister

:18:37.:18:46.

who many thought might get Reef -- we shuffled but didn't is Ken

:18:46.:18:52.

Clarke. Welcome to Sunday Politics. This reshuffle was about new blood,

:18:52.:18:56.

more women and more ethnic minorities, where did you fit in? I

:18:56.:19:04.

would describe myself as the elder statesman, to be polite, but it is

:19:04.:19:10.

difficult to replace them. I enjoy it. It is a great privilege to have

:19:10.:19:15.

a role in Cabinet and I will carry on as long as David wants me to do.

:19:15.:19:20.

I have seen many reshuffles, they are dreadful and I seem to have

:19:20.:19:25.

survived them so far. Did David Cameron talk to you before this

:19:25.:19:31.

reshuffle? No, he didn't. I would have had expected a phone call,

:19:31.:19:38.

asking, how do you think about stepping down, but he didn't and my

:19:38.:19:48.

role is one of giving my wit and wisdom to the Cabinet and meetings

:19:49.:19:52.

of the Security Council so he has got to put up with me a bit longer.

:19:53.:19:57.

You said you are going to stand again at the next election, why do

:19:57.:20:04.

you keep going? What do you hope to achieve in politics? I am mostly a

:20:04.:20:09.

political anorak, I have been since I was very small, by the process of

:20:09.:20:14.

politics but the older I get I get more concerned about the good

:20:14.:20:18.

governance of the country and at the moment the combination of problems

:20:18.:20:21.

is quite appalling. The difficulty of tackling the modern world is very

:20:21.:20:27.

difficult and I find it fascinating. The old argument that attracts every

:20:27.:20:31.

decent person into politics, you might be able sometimes to make a

:20:31.:20:36.

bit of difference, and I try to do that. I try not to hark back on my

:20:36.:20:41.

experience but we will have a lot of tough problems which I think the

:20:41.:20:44.

Conservative Government will have to tackle. You opposed referenda on

:20:44.:20:51.

Maastricht, the Lisbon Treaty, you were even against one on Britain

:20:52.:20:58.

adopting the euro. It must follow that you are against the referenda

:20:58.:21:05.

on Britain's membership to the EU? I am always for holding people

:21:05.:21:08.

accountable to the long-term and medium term consequences of

:21:08.:21:11.

decisions they take as representatives, but this is a

:21:11.:21:16.

generational thing. I am in a minority now and my colleagues have

:21:16.:21:20.

firmly decided a referendum needs to be held to settle the question of

:21:20.:21:24.

Britain's relationship with the European Union which I think is one

:21:24.:21:29.

of the most important things in politics. It will determine

:21:29.:21:33.

Britain's place in the modern world and determine whether our

:21:33.:21:37.

politicians are able to look after the living standards, the economy,

:21:37.:21:39.

the safety against terrorism. Last the living standards, the economy,

:21:39.:21:46.

summer you said that only extreme nationalists wanted a silly EU

:21:46.:21:54.

referendum. It follows your party must be full of extremely silly

:21:54.:21:59.

nationalists. The people who are desperate to have a referendum are

:21:59.:22:04.

all the people who actually want to leave the European Union. The

:22:04.:22:08.

referendum will involve the public and people like me have got to get

:22:08.:22:13.

across to the public, don't just feel angry about the last thing you

:22:13.:22:18.

read in the newspaper about what the commission is or is not doing, do

:22:18.:22:23.

bear in mind this is our base in the modern world. We happen to be a

:22:23.:22:30.

leading member, almost as valuable and rich as the Americans, from

:22:30.:22:33.

there we can have a greater influence in events. That is not

:22:33.:22:39.

just how the politicians get on the world stage, it is how the

:22:39.:22:44.

politicians look after us when we face danger from terrorism is

:22:44.:22:49.

spilling over from the Middle East, or we face public services being

:22:49.:22:53.

threatened. You didn't even turn up to vote for the bill which will give

:22:53.:23:00.

us a referendum. I had other engagements on the Friday concerned.

:23:00.:23:05.

It seemed to get through without my participation. You didn't want to be

:23:05.:23:08.

seen voting for something your heart is not in. Let's be honest here.

:23:08.:23:16.

Look, many of your colleagues I have interviewed say that if the choice

:23:16.:23:25.

was between the state -- the status quo with the European Union and

:23:25.:23:30.

leaving, they would leave. The truth is that you would vote to stay in

:23:30.:23:34.

even on the status quo, wouldn't you? I haven't spent so long

:23:34.:23:42.

supporting the EU to leave now if I got chance. I think our economy is

:23:42.:23:46.

much stronger than it would have been if we were outside the EU. We

:23:46.:23:52.

have continued attracting investment, as in Washington last

:23:52.:23:56.

week. We are trying to roll forward the prospect of free trade and I

:23:56.:24:04.

have to reassure Americans that we are not likely to leave the EU to

:24:04.:24:09.

make sure they will invest here. That is true but it also needs

:24:09.:24:16.

reform. The cry for reform, which is echoed in other countries,

:24:16.:24:22.

particularly Germany, is a good one. Even if David Cameron came back with

:24:22.:24:26.

nothing from Brussels, you would still vote to stay in, correct?

:24:26.:24:34.

Going off to be a small economy, and one which is dwindling in comparison

:24:34.:24:39.

with others, in the modern world it would be dangerous. I also think the

:24:39.:24:42.

dangers of the Middle East and the dangers of some of the countries

:24:42.:24:46.

between EU and Russia are considerable, we shouldn't

:24:46.:24:50.

disengage. I will take that as a yes. I do think reform can

:24:50.:24:55.

strengthen the case, and of some members of the public don't agree

:24:55.:24:59.

with me, I trust they will be persuaded when David delivers his

:24:59.:25:04.

reforms. The latest poll gives Labour a ten point lead over the

:25:04.:25:09.

Tories and the reason why it has a ten point lead is because UKIP are

:25:09.:25:11.

up there with 18% of the vote and ten point lead is because UKIP are

:25:11.:25:17.

the Tory vote has slumped in the Paul to 27%. How would you see off

:25:17.:25:21.

UKIP? By saying you need a strong Paul to 27%. How would you see off

:25:21.:25:27.

and effective Government. We faced terrible problems. Every Government

:25:27.:25:35.

I have been in has been behind in the polls. This Government is not as

:25:35.:25:39.

popular as the previous Government I have served in under the three

:25:39.:25:43.

previous prime ministers. When you get an election, people have to ask

:25:44.:25:47.

themselves who do we want to decide the issues of war and peace in this

:25:47.:25:54.

country? Who do we want to get us out of our economic problems. I

:25:54.:26:00.

don't think Ed Miliband is up to it. That generalised stuff will not see

:26:00.:26:05.

off UKIP. People will not listen to that. When people answer an opinion

:26:05.:26:11.

poll, they tell you how annoyed they are by something that has recently

:26:11.:26:17.

upset them, but people are more sensible than this. Every Government

:26:17.:26:21.

I have served in has been behind in the polls. At a general election you

:26:22.:26:29.

have to mobilise the public to start thinking, who do we want to govern

:26:29.:26:37.

us? They did take over a calamitous situation, and there are very

:26:38.:26:42.

important problems to be decided going forward. UKIP represents

:26:42.:26:49.

anti-immigration, anti-foreigners, anti-Europe, anti-politics but I

:26:49.:26:53.

don't think it will get 18% of the opinion -- the polls in any

:26:53.:27:00.

election. Thank you. Once upon a time, a

:27:00.:27:25.

politician whose career ended in disgrace might choose to lie low for

:27:25.:27:28.

a while, perhaps to spend a bit more time tending the tulips and doing

:27:28.:27:32.

the odd bit of charity work. Not Chris Huhne. He walked free from

:27:32.:27:35.

prison only five months ago but the former Energy Secretary is already

:27:35.:27:39.

back in the public eye - a column in the Guardian, a job with a renewable

:27:39.:27:42.

energy firm, even the odd TV interview. So is he working on a

:27:42.:27:44.

political rehabilitation? Chris Huhne, welcome to the Sunday

:27:44.:27:47.

Politics. The answer to that is clearly know, and thank you for

:27:47.:27:49.

inviting me back. You have set your career in politics is over so what

:27:49.:27:52.

does the future hold for you? I am happy doing what I am doing, I am

:27:52.:27:58.

passionate about green energy and climate change, so I am doing things

:27:58.:28:04.

on that front in terms of business and work for think tanks and

:28:04.:28:07.

non-governmental organisations, and I am doing a column for the Guardian

:28:07.:28:12.

on Mondays. You obviously get a lot of material from the Sunday Politics

:28:13.:28:20.

to write about. Have you embarked on political rehabilitation? It was

:28:20.:28:24.

clear from the point of view of the George when I was sentenced, he

:28:24.:28:28.

said, this is not about rehabilitating you, because I had

:28:28.:28:33.

not offended for ten years, it was actually about stopping people like

:28:33.:28:34.

not offended for ten years, it was you, Andrew, Ron doing the same

:28:34.:28:40.

thing. It was a deterrent effect for the public. That is I think why the

:28:40.:28:46.

prosecution was brought. I had not offended for ten years on this,

:28:46.:28:49.

either in terms of speeding points... But you are out to

:28:49.:28:56.

rehabilitate yourself in the public? I have been a journalist,

:28:56.:29:17.

rehabilitate yourself in the public? coalition to the bitter end? Or

:29:17.:29:21.

should they re-establish their own identity? My view is that the

:29:21.:29:24.

Coalition agreement is for the whole Parliament, and the Lib Dems are

:29:24.:29:31.

going to stay, and should stay. What would be a good result for the Lib

:29:31.:29:37.

Dems in 2015? The loss of ten, 15 seats? I think it will be an

:29:37.:29:42.

interesting election because I think you will have essentially three

:29:42.:29:47.

party leaders, all of whom are unpopular. It is almost

:29:47.:29:50.

unprecedented that they have negative ratings so it will be a

:29:50.:29:56.

battle between the walking wounded. In those circumstances, in my view,

:29:56.:30:02.

the Lib Dems can come out very well. But you will lose seats, won't

:30:02.:30:11.

you? It is far too early to say. If the Liberal Democrats do badly in

:30:11.:30:16.

next year's European elections, you could come fourth on fifth behind

:30:16.:30:21.

the Greens. Will Nick Clegg's leadership be in jeopardy? I've been

:30:21.:30:27.

in countless cycles where we've had very low poll ratings. The normal

:30:27.:30:33.

pickup to the subsequent general election on average has been 10

:30:34.:30:39.

percentage points. So he's not in jeopardy? I think Nick will be there

:30:39.:30:42.

at the next general election. I think he'll lead the party into the

:30:42.:30:46.

next general election. I expect we'll do much better than most

:30:46.:30:53.

people think. If we are heading for another hung Parliament, which is

:30:53.:30:55.

what the Liberal Democrats want. Let's be honest, you'd rather be in

:30:55.:31:00.

coalition with the Labour Party than have a repeat of the Conservatives?

:31:00.:31:04.

One of the key things I sawed to colleagues, whatever your personal

:31:04.:31:09.

preference, I used to be a Labour Party member, you can derive from

:31:09.:31:13.

that I'm on the left of centre of the party. I always said to my

:31:13.:31:20.

colleagues in the party, it is absolutely crucial to remember that

:31:20.:31:20.

colleagues in the party, it is the we are in politics because we

:31:20.:31:23.

are Liberal Democrats, not because we are either Conservatives or

:31:23.:31:27.

second best Labour. If you don't take that view, you don't have any

:31:27.:31:30.

bargaining position when it You said you are keeping up your

:31:30.:32:07.

interest in energy matters. Is Ed Miliband right to promise a

:32:07.:32:12.

temporary price freeze with Mike we have posturing on energy prices. It

:32:12.:32:17.

is not essential policy. It was tried in California in 2001, one of

:32:17.:32:23.

the factors which led to blackout. We have the Prime Minister promising

:32:23.:32:28.

we should shift everyone onto the lowest possible tariff which would

:32:28.:32:33.

mean all the big six on one tariff, so we are getting populist

:32:33.:32:39.

claptrap. So you are against the price freeze? It is a bad idea when

:32:39.:32:45.

we are trying to encourage investment and when the market can

:32:45.:32:49.

give us some of the lowest gas and liquidity prices in Europe. Britain

:32:49.:32:56.

has some of the lowest. The other European prices are only higher

:32:56.:33:00.

because they put more taxes on it. Base prices are among the highest in

:33:00.:33:05.

Europe. If you look at new comparisons in terms of what goes

:33:05.:33:09.

out to households, the reality... That is after taxes. Conservatives

:33:09.:33:15.

claim there are taxes being put on our energy. You are one of the

:33:15.:33:21.

people responsible for long ring us with these taxes which are adding

:33:21.:33:27.

over £100 to the average build. Why don't you cut some of these taxes

:33:27.:33:32.

and make it cheaper? That is nonsense and that is coming from

:33:32.:33:35.

people like George Osborne who should know better, because one

:33:35.:33:40.

hypocrisy of this is that the one person in the government who has

:33:40.:33:43.

added green taxes was George Osborne with that carbon price floor. We put

:33:43.:33:51.

it into the coalition agreement because the Conservatives wanted it.

:33:51.:33:56.

The Lib Dems did not want it, we do not needed to drive

:33:56.:34:00.

decarbonisation, it was a revenue raising measure by the Tories and it

:34:00.:34:07.

set of a load of hair is about green taxes which are now coming home to

:34:07.:34:15.

roost. You are a big supporter of Leveson style press regulation, so

:34:15.:34:20.

will you stop writing for the Guardian if it refuses to sign up to

:34:20.:34:25.

the charter? I think that is neither here nor there. The Guardian is a

:34:25.:34:32.

great platform. If it doesn't sign up to what you believe in, will you

:34:32.:34:37.

stop supporting it? I am sure they will let me make that point. I think

:34:37.:34:43.

newspapers will sign up to it because they have a collapse in

:34:43.:34:46.

public trust and confidence unparalleled for every other

:34:46.:34:52.

business. They need a third-party endorsement to say they have cleaned

:34:52.:34:56.

up their act and the going to get trust back, and they will. When they

:34:56.:35:01.

haven't signed up, you can come back and talk about it. You are watching

:35:01.:35:08.

Sunday Politics. Good morning, and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:35:08.:35:11.

Coming up on the programme: More from the new Secretary of State for

:35:11.:35:15.

Scotland and the challenges facing him over the next year.

:35:15.:35:21.

And is this just a nostalgic anthem from the '80s? Or 25 years on, has

:35:21.:35:25.

there been such a dramatic change in Scotland's industrial landscape?

:35:25.:35:31.

Alistair Carmichael is the UK government's new man in Scotland, or

:35:31.:35:34.

Scotland's new man in the UK Government, depending on your

:35:34.:35:38.

viewpoint. As he gets to grips with the job, Mr Carmichael will be

:35:38.:35:41.

assessing the challenges ahead. So what are they? Andrew Kerr reports.

:35:41.:35:53.

The office of Secretary of State for Scotland doesn't often make it into

:35:53.:35:58.

the new key news, let alone comedy shows. There was another man

:35:58.:36:05.

promoted in this reshuffle, Alistair Carmichael who is now Secretary of

:36:05.:36:08.

State for Scotland, and I would remember his name, anyone who

:36:08.:36:13.

watches pointless, because in 18 months he will be an answer.

:36:13.:36:20.

Alistair Carmichael has been passed over twice that now he has the job,

:36:20.:36:25.

he is Chief Whip, in that position he would not be known to the public,

:36:25.:36:30.

that is behind-the-scenes and any Chief Whip would find that, but now

:36:30.:36:34.

he will be in the spotlight and be interested to see what he does.

:36:34.:36:40.

Third time lucky perhaps, a Secretary of State who can last the

:36:40.:36:45.

course. After moving on from Nick Clegg, he is getting to grips with

:36:45.:36:49.

his office and the challenges he faces, especially how the referendum

:36:49.:36:55.

debate is directed. I think his main challenge in the next 12 months is

:36:55.:37:01.

to argue the case for the union from a perhaps more colourful or in a

:37:01.:37:09.

more colourful way than it has been argued so far. I think Carmichael

:37:09.:37:16.

will need to bring into the argument for the union in Scotland the other

:37:16.:37:25.

parts of the UK. At the Royal heart of the UK, the Scottish secretary

:37:25.:37:29.

had his first front row engagement at Buckingham Palace this week for

:37:29.:37:33.

the Batten relay. In the referendum race, he is running side-by-side

:37:33.:37:38.

with Labour and Tory colleagues and will have to form close relations

:37:38.:37:44.

with key figures in Better Together. He will also have to manage

:37:44.:37:47.

perceptions of visiting UK ministers. He has clearly clocked

:37:47.:37:55.

what the problem is, which is having ministers like Philip Hammond

:37:55.:37:58.

appearing to give lectures to Scots on how they should run their

:37:58.:38:03.

affairs, but saying he. These lecture tours is one thing. Delivery

:38:03.:38:08.

is another, and I don't think he will be able to stop George Osborne

:38:08.:38:12.

giving Scots lectures on whether they can use the pound after

:38:12.:38:17.

independence. Perhaps that is a mountain to climb of though that

:38:17.:38:24.

brings its own problems. Challenge three, how to reconcile long-held

:38:24.:38:28.

political views in the context of the referendum debate. Liberal

:38:28.:38:33.

Democrats have been Federalists for a long time. They have argued that

:38:33.:38:39.

the constitution needs to move on and more powers should be given to

:38:39.:38:43.

Scotland, so it will be interesting to see what role he plays in the

:38:43.:38:48.

debate. Well he pushes Tory colleagues at Westminster to come up

:38:48.:38:54.

with a scheme to make some kind of concrete alternative to

:38:54.:38:57.

independence, so I think he may be caught between a rock and a hard

:38:57.:39:01.

place between David Cameron and Alex Salmond. There are plenty of issues

:39:01.:39:07.

for Mr Carmichael to grapple with. He has a year to get them right. If

:39:07.:39:12.

he doesn't, he could be out of a job. In our Orkney studio is the man

:39:12.:39:20.

himself. Good afternoon. You talked earlier about putting passion in the

:39:20.:39:25.

debate. At the Scottish office been too conciliatory with the SNP and

:39:25.:39:30.

the Scottish Government? We have a day-to-day job to do in terms of

:39:30.:39:36.

managing Scotland's reputation in Whitehall and Westminster, so in

:39:36.:39:40.

that you have to be considered very, but in the wider little debate, we

:39:40.:39:46.

are entering a new phase. We are now in the countdown to the day which

:39:46.:39:52.

matters and I think all parties need to put more spark and passion into

:39:52.:39:57.

this debate, but let me be clear. This is not just about politicians,

:39:57.:40:01.

because politicians are alone cannot run this debating. We need to hear

:40:01.:40:07.

from teachers, nurses, doctors, lawyers, from business people, from

:40:07.:40:12.

people looking to start up their own business, the widest possible range

:40:12.:40:17.

of people in Scotland have got to find a voice in this debating which

:40:17.:40:21.

I don't think we have had yet. When that happens you will see more

:40:21.:40:26.

colour coming into the debate. Why do you think they have not been

:40:26.:40:31.

taking part in the debate? Has been bogged down in political

:40:31.:40:35.

technicalities? I think the debate has been ridiculously prolonged. I

:40:35.:40:44.

feel as if this is already gone on my entire adult life and we still

:40:44.:40:49.

have 12 months until we get to the polling booth. I would not have

:40:49.:40:54.

foreseen the need for a campaign of this length. That was Alex

:40:54.:41:02.

Salmond's choice, not ours. I don't know that politicians necessarily

:41:02.:41:10.

can do with an their own, but need to bring in a wider range of people

:41:11.:41:15.

and I really want the widest possible range. I had a lunch with

:41:15.:41:20.

businessmen in Edinburgh who all told me they had real concerns about

:41:20.:41:23.

what could happen if we did vote yes. I think they need to stop

:41:24.:41:28.

telling me that and start telling the rest of the country. Why hasn't

:41:29.:41:36.

that happened? I think it will happen now as mines concentrate

:41:36.:41:39.

closer to the day. If there is a yes vote, you follow on from what

:41:39.:41:44.

Michael Morris said, that that would be your moment to start negotiating

:41:44.:41:49.

for Scotland? I fight for Scotland every day, and I have done. What

:41:50.:41:55.

would be your position after a yes vote? I would take the same

:41:55.:42:01.

position. I see no real need to move from that, but that is a hypothesis

:42:01.:42:08.

on top of a supposition. What we need to be doing is instead of

:42:08.:42:14.

coming up with a fantasy structure about how we would negotiate after a

:42:14.:42:20.

yes vote, we ought to be getting in there, having the debate, explaining

:42:20.:42:27.

the issues about jobs, mortgages, the role we can have in the rest of

:42:27.:42:32.

the world, rather than obsessing with things that might interest

:42:32.:42:36.

journalists and politicians but are not what concern the public. Some of

:42:36.:42:43.

those issues were raised by your Cabinet colleagues when they came

:42:43.:42:46.

north recently. Which of them have been arrogant in the way they

:42:46.:42:51.

delivered their message? Less top put words in my mouth. I never said

:42:51.:42:55.

anyone had been arrogant when they came north. You accept that, surely.

:42:55.:43:05.

Sorry, I've just lost any sound. Can you still hear me? I can hear you

:43:05.:43:14.

again. Can I just explain this question about arrogance. What I was

:43:14.:43:21.

talking about when I said we shouldn't all we see coming to

:43:21.:43:27.

Scotland as a lecture tour is that a great deal is happening in Scotland

:43:27.:43:31.

from which they can learn, and one very small example, the reader may

:43:31.:43:38.

was talking this week about the National crime agency -- Theresa

:43:38.:43:43.

May. Opportunities to tackle organised crime across the UK is an

:43:43.:43:48.

important argument in this referendum, but she also said this

:43:48.:43:54.

is something that could be used to tackle gang violence. I said to her

:43:54.:44:00.

that is great, there is a great story about what Strathclyde Police

:44:00.:44:04.

were doing in Glasgow in tackling gang violence, so please come up,

:44:04.:44:10.

hear what they are doing and be ready to take it away and

:44:10.:44:14.

implemented or to borrow on our experience. We are all still part of

:44:14.:44:22.

the UK, and she said she knew about that work, and she had had

:44:22.:44:28.

Strathclyde Police don't, but there was a chance for her to come to

:44:28.:44:30.

Scotland in future. Has Whitehall got it wrong when it

:44:30.:44:38.

talks about things like fast lane still being part of the geographical

:44:38.:44:42.

rest of the UK if Scotland voted yes? I think perhaps we occasionally

:44:42.:44:50.

have opened up an opportunity of ourselves or our opponents, rather,

:44:50.:44:56.

to portray us in a negative light. But I think if you look across the

:44:56.:45:02.

piece, five or six papers, there has been a substantial well referenced

:45:02.:45:08.

pieces of work and I think that actually you can contrast that very

:45:08.:45:12.

well with the approach that is being taken to the campaign by the yes

:45:12.:45:18.

campaign which has been simple -- simply to assert things left, right

:45:18.:45:22.

and centre. I go back to my time working as a lawyer. It is the

:45:22.:45:26.

moment that every lawyer dreads which is when the sheriff pulls the

:45:26.:45:31.

glasses down over his nose and says, what is your authority for that

:45:32.:45:36.

proposition Mr Carmichael? The SNP, when they are asserting a position,

:45:36.:45:42.

have got no authority. They say similar things about the papers that

:45:42.:45:46.

Westminster producers. The White Paper is coming out. It is therefore

:45:46.:45:50.

people to judge for themselves. He talked earlier in your interview...

:45:50.:45:58.

You talked about your previous job as chief whip being complex and

:45:58.:46:02.

subtle. What sort of subtleties will you bring to the White Paper when it

:46:02.:46:07.

comes out from the Scottish Government as that will be a big bit

:46:07.:46:11.

of work? I am losing a feed so did not quite the question. In terms of

:46:11.:46:19.

the White Paper, it remains to be seen what is in it, I hope it is

:46:19.:46:24.

more substantial than everything we have seen from the campaign so far

:46:24.:46:31.

but I am not holding good faith. I get the feeling that as we enter the

:46:31.:46:35.

next 12 months in terms of this being a battle between the arguments

:46:35.:46:41.

of the head and of the heart, in terms of the arguments of the head,

:46:41.:46:48.

then we are in a dominant position. Will there be a united front from

:46:48.:46:55.

your party and your Better Together partners on what happens if there is

:46:55.:46:56.

your party and your Better Together a no vote? I hope there will be a

:46:56.:47:03.

united front in as much as we will all recognise that the clear will of

:47:03.:47:11.

the Scottish people, that there should be extra powers... Will you

:47:11.:47:15.

be bringing them together to get a united position? That is an

:47:15.:47:21.

important part of it and also I would like to see the SNP as part of

:47:21.:47:25.

that, because they have an important voice, an important role to play. If

:47:25.:47:30.

you look back over the recent history, the SNP have always said on

:47:30.:47:34.

the Constitutional Convention, we don't want to be part of that, we

:47:34.:47:40.

are only interested in independence. On the commission that delivered

:47:41.:47:43.

substantial extra powers to the parliament, they said exactly the

:47:43.:47:47.

same sort of thing again. This time, once we have settled the

:47:47.:47:51.

independence question, there will be no other way for the SNP to go. They

:47:51.:47:58.

will have to be part... In regards to people you are working with... I

:47:58.:48:04.

just want to ask, we are running out of time. Liberal home rule, I think

:48:04.:48:10.

there will be a healthy influence and I welcome their participation.

:48:10.:48:15.

Will there be a united position from the parties in Better Together ahead

:48:15.:48:21.

of the referendum? You have to ask the other parties as well as the

:48:21.:48:29.

might -- as well as myself. You will have a united position in as much as

:48:29.:48:32.

there will be a wish to see extra powers, I do believe that. I don't

:48:33.:48:38.

believe that you can -- don't think you can expect a specification of

:48:38.:48:44.

what is powers will be. That is a process we will have to go through

:48:44.:48:48.

once we have settled the independence question. Thank you for

:48:48.:48:54.

joining us and thank you for bearing with us over the technical glitches.

:48:54.:48:58.

Thank you. Last night, the Proclaimers played

:48:58.:49:02.

Glasgow landmark 25 years since they broke through with Letter From

:49:02.:49:09.

America. Is linked the Highland Clearances with the industrial

:49:09.:49:14.

shutdown of the Thatcher era. We looked at the towns that are

:49:15.:49:16.

supposed to be no more. We are still singing passionately

:49:16.:49:28.

about industrial devastation in a song inspired by Tessa at Highland

:49:28.:49:33.

has been cleared off their land. It was the painting that I thought

:49:33.:49:38.

about. It was the contrast with that, obviously with the Clearances

:49:38.:49:43.

of the 19th century and what was happening in the late 70s and 80s.

:49:43.:49:50.

That is where it came from. Those -- it could have been many towns. It

:49:50.:49:53.

could have been Kilmarnock come that. Those towns either had very

:49:53.:50:00.

heavy job losses suddenly or unemployment blackspot and work

:50:00.:50:06.

exploiting a lot of people. Those four sounded better going together

:50:06.:50:11.

than others. That was 25 years ago. What has happened since? What does

:50:11.:50:15.

it tell us about the Scottish economy? Figure two. -- let's take a

:50:15.:50:23.

tour. Bathgate. I went to the site of a

:50:23.:50:27.

plant where thousands of workers made trucks and tractors to hear

:50:27.:50:35.

from locals. We knew what was going to happen. As closing the same

:50:35.:50:42.

time. It was devastating. In fact, the unemployment rate went up to

:50:42.:50:50.

about 25% in some areas. I dismember a civil servant at that time saying

:50:50.:50:58.

to me, Mr Swan, -- I remember a civil servant. I can set up an

:50:58.:51:00.

infrastructure that will allow us to civil servant. I can set up an

:51:00.:51:08.

get more work back in full and will employ your sons and daughters. That

:51:08.:51:13.

is what happened. But it took us 15 years to balance the economy out

:51:13.:51:19.

again. The actual jobs came here, most left again. The rail line to

:51:19.:51:25.

Edinburgh reopened. I think that may have made a big difference,

:51:25.:51:30.

certainly after the factory closing, the link was established in

:51:30.:51:37.

1986 to Edinburgh. Many of the people use Bathgate as a commuter

:51:37.:51:41.

town, like the suburbs of London, people live here and it is more

:51:41.:51:47.

affordable housing and Glasgow or Edinburgh. Not far from here, is

:51:47.:51:55.

Broxburn. The meat... So biggest closure that we have seen. All of

:51:55.:52:03.

the interesting factors is that the workforce were from Poland and

:52:03.:52:07.

Lithuania and Estonia. In ways that few could have foreseen before the

:52:07.:52:12.

Iron Curtain came down, that helps ensure that the tide of immigration

:52:12.:52:17.

out of Scotland has been turned. What about the Linwood? It is home

:52:17.:52:23.

to a car factory, birthplace of the humble Imp. On that site, the

:52:23.:52:28.

Phoenix business Park, risen from the ashes and tells us a lot about

:52:28.:52:34.

the modern economy. Where they made cars, there are now 18 dealerships.

:52:34.:52:40.

My father worked here. Of course, the Proclaimers song when they sung

:52:40.:52:44.

Linwood no more, it's resonated with me. That was a tragic time all of

:52:44.:52:49.

the families around here. I saw my father go downhill in a year, he was

:52:49.:52:55.

unemployed. I saw him aged ten or 15 years. I always felt I wanted to

:52:55.:52:58.

have my own business so I could in some way be of control -- in control

:52:58.:53:03.

of my destiny and so I could look at a team of people and make sure they

:53:04.:53:10.

don't have to go through this. On this site, there are probably 4000

:53:10.:53:16.

that worked here at the time. I think I should write to the

:53:16.:53:19.

Proclaimers and tell them there is a Linwood. Where next? Used to five.

:53:19.:53:25.

This is where they used to ship coal from Fife and then they built

:53:26.:53:31.

jackets for North Sea platforms until this yard went silent. Then

:53:31.:53:36.

came a second wind from North Sea oil and gas and a new wave of

:53:36.:53:42.

renewable energy. So, methyl no more, far from it. This looks like a

:53:42.:53:47.

next big thing in the Scottish economy. This was a successful you

:53:47.:53:51.

are operated by many different companies. The yard was lying empty

:53:51.:53:57.

for about seven years. Since then, with renewables and oil and gas, we

:53:57.:54:01.

have generated employment for around 800 people with potential to

:54:02.:54:07.

increase. This is 12,000 tonnes of oil platform bound for deep water,

:54:07.:54:10.

there are apprentices being taken on, but the welding skills, they had

:54:10.:54:16.

to hire from Poland. A test turbine is being put in by Samsung which

:54:17.:54:21.

hopes to build more of them. Renewables are very important. We

:54:21.:54:27.

will probably be Europe's leader in terms of manufacture of jackets for

:54:27.:54:31.

offshore wind, we have an ambition to build new factories here and have

:54:31.:54:36.

the capacity to build 150 jackets a year. What is delaying things?

:54:36.:54:43.

Scottish independence, uncertainty, approval with EEM R and a clear

:54:43.:54:47.

understanding of what is going to happen with renewables in the

:54:47.:54:52.

future. Irvin in Ayrshire was the final town that was supposed to be

:54:52.:54:56.

no more and it was a new town, it was not so much bigger dishes

:54:56.:55:01.

clearing out, it was its young people who relax jobs. One went off

:55:01.:55:04.

to Glasgow to study law. She was back recently to campaign for

:55:04.:55:10.

independence. Irvin was the big metropolis, it was where you went on

:55:10.:55:17.

a Saturday night. Went to the leisure centre which when I was

:55:17.:55:20.

growing up was the first of its kind in Scotland. At the time of the

:55:21.:55:29.

Proclaimers song, I was about 18. So when they were singing about your

:55:29.:55:33.

town being no more, did that ring true to you? In a way. I had already

:55:33.:55:41.

joined the SNP by then and the Proclaimers delivered this anthem

:55:41.:55:45.

for the age. Unemployment was high and one of the things I strongly

:55:45.:55:50.

from being at school was this fear of unemployment, because as I

:55:51.:55:54.

remember it back then, unemployment was something that was terminal. If

:55:54.:55:58.

you did not get a job or you lost a job, or it felt as if there could be

:55:58.:56:07.

no hope of getting another one. How do you feel about opportunities now?

:56:07.:56:17.

I think there are opportunities in Irvin. The council are working hard

:56:17.:56:25.

to make sure that there are economic it -- opportunities here. There is a

:56:25.:56:32.

big Pharma company. Epic life sciences -- a big life sciences

:56:32.:56:36.

presents. For someone like my nephew, he is interested in

:56:36.:56:41.

sciences, there are opportunities. The town centre regeneration fits

:56:41.:56:45.

into this journey through Scotland and the time. What I have found is

:56:45.:56:50.

an economy and people who have shown flexibility and resilience. We are

:56:50.:56:54.

more skilled and more resourceful. Government made a difference through

:56:54.:56:58.

building infrastructure for new ones. People have become more mobile

:56:58.:57:02.

around the country and between countries. I think the song has

:57:02.:57:07.

aged, there is no doubt about that. The world is different. Scotland

:57:07.:57:08.

aged, there is no doubt about that. thankfully is a better place. I

:57:08.:57:14.

think it feels more modern, it feels like it attitudes have moved on in

:57:14.:57:18.

terms of things. But in terms of people being able to get work, I

:57:18.:57:22.

wonder how much difference there is. My kids now, leaving school, trying

:57:22.:57:30.

to get full-time work is very difficult.

:57:30.:57:52.

Dreamy today is the economic commentator Alf Young and the

:57:52.:57:59.

Economist Ailsa McKay from Glasgow can and university. Alf Young,

:57:59.:58:05.

unemployment whited those areas but when we see the regeneration, the

:58:05.:58:09.

change in the workforce, could it be argued as some said that

:58:09.:58:11.

unemployment was a price worth paying? I think it took a very long

:58:11.:58:19.

time to pay that price and a lot of people never really recovered from

:58:19.:58:23.

it. I noted that Harry Burns, the senior medical figure in Scotland,

:58:23.:58:27.

was saying that loss of industry, that loss of reason for being is a

:58:27.:58:36.

major factor. Other problems that Scotland still try and combat in

:58:36.:58:39.

terms of physical and mental health and the rest of it, but clearly a

:58:39.:58:43.

lot of these places found a new future, there is no doubt about

:58:43.:58:48.

that. But it took time. It took other hiccups along the way,

:58:48.:58:53.

Bathgate had the car plant, it lost that. It then had bowed to roll up

:58:53.:59:00.

making mobile phones, it lost that. There was a big silicon chip flat --

:59:00.:59:07.

chip plant, it is now a distribution centre for Tesco. What has come out

:59:07.:59:10.

of it all is not making so many things, but being a service economy.

:59:10.:59:15.

Being dependent on what other people make and what they will sell at

:59:15.:59:20.

that. We have not been that good, I think at regenerating the kind of

:59:20.:59:25.

large-scale jobs -- job opportunities that would employ a

:59:26.:59:29.

lot of people out with service call centres and that kind of thing. How

:59:29.:59:34.

important are those large scale industries for a community's

:59:34.:59:39.

self-worth? These big factories would be the heart of these

:59:39.:59:43.

communities. We are now hearing that Bathgate is a commuter town.

:59:43.:59:49.

Absolutely, I think your piece referred to the resilience of

:59:49.:59:52.

families and local communities. Don't know about the changing face

:59:52.:59:56.

of industry, but the changing face of the entertainment industry, I was

:59:56.:00:02.

fortunate enough to see the Proclaimers last night and the

:00:02.:00:07.

message when they played Letter From America was just as poignant as 25

:00:07.:00:11.

years ago as we are still living with the consequences. The

:00:11.:00:17.

consequences are dire. Because of the changing face of the public

:00:17.:00:20.

sector versus the private sector and the lack of investment in the public

:00:20.:00:23.

sector means that these families that did pick up the pieces when

:00:23.:00:30.

women went out to work can no longer use that Avenue, women cannot find

:00:30.:00:33.

work in the public sector any more in these areas. How much were these

:00:33.:00:42.

changes are about political ideology and how much were they about changes

:00:42.:00:46.

in the goods and services people wanted? A lot of it was about a

:00:46.:00:52.

government that the side of that investing in all those old

:00:52.:00:56.

industries like shipbuilding was no longer a price worth paying, so they

:00:56.:01:00.

tried to restructure. The other thing we lost, and one of the things

:01:00.:01:06.

I remember with great affection was a time when women in Greenock took

:01:06.:01:10.

over a jean factory in the early 1980s, and Helen Monaghan and her

:01:10.:01:16.

friends took over the factory and fought for their jobs, and there was

:01:17.:01:21.

a kind of resilience about ordinary working people and what they thought

:01:21.:01:27.

their claim to a role in society was, that seems to me to have

:01:27.:01:33.

disappeared. I suppose there is also that issued that we focused on these

:01:33.:01:37.

areas that have regenerated but other areas are still struggling,

:01:37.:01:41.

parts of air sure that have not recovered from the collapse of

:01:41.:01:45.

mining. Yes, your peace was quite optimistic, but Alf is right, one

:01:45.:01:51.

thing we need to think about is the role of the public sector and the

:01:51.:01:55.

ideology that forms thinking about its role, and it is not the enemy of

:01:55.:02:00.

economic growth. At the concert last night, I felt like 25 years ago the

:02:00.:02:08.

ideology reforming our economic policy is the same as the idea that

:02:08.:02:13.

form economic policy them. It is not just about global conditions but

:02:13.:02:18.

ideology in the free market of the public sector is the enemy of the

:02:18.:02:23.

economy. We need to move beyond that thinking and that is the challenge

:02:23.:02:27.

for the government, to talk about ideologies and frame the big picture

:02:27.:02:32.

for Scotland. How much has the workforce change? We now see

:02:32.:02:37.

immigration into Scotland that maybe we didn't 25 years ago, especially

:02:37.:02:42.

with Polish workers and other communities coming here, so the

:02:42.:02:47.

workforce is dynamic. It is, but it is also atomised, especially for

:02:47.:02:52.

young people with no degree or great skills, finding meaningful work is

:02:52.:02:58.

difficult. There are great ambiguities about where we are and I

:02:58.:03:02.

suppose it is ambiguities that release back to that which in

:03:02.:03:07.

Douglas's the long, that Nicholl painted, because the man on that

:03:07.:03:12.

note, you don't know whether he is regretting what he is leaving behind

:03:12.:03:16.

in the clearances or where he is going or what he is doing next, and

:03:16.:03:22.

I think we are still with that ambiguity about what the future

:03:23.:03:26.

holds, especially for the next generation. I think uncertainty was

:03:26.:03:31.

mentioned in your peace, and there is uncertainty for young women.

:03:31.:03:36.

Modern apprenticeships are creating jobs but the jobs for young men.

:03:36.:03:41.

Young women are losing jobs and middle-aged women are losing jobs

:03:41.:03:45.

that will never come back because the public sector has been

:03:45.:03:48.

decimated, and that is what a lot of families in the 1980s relied on and

:03:48.:03:53.

can no longer rely on now. Thank you both very much. You're watching

:03:53.:03:56.

Sunday Politics Scotland from the BBC.

:03:56.:03:59.

Still to come: a look at the week ahead with Simon Johnson from The

:03:59.:04:01.

Daily Telegraph and veteran political campaigner Isobel Lindsay.

:04:01.:04:04.

But first, let's cross to Andrew Kerr for the latest news from

:04:04.:04:08.

Reporting Scotland. A murder investigation is under way

:04:08.:04:11.

after a fire in a Stirling hair dressing salon. 46-year-old Ahdieh

:04:11.:04:18.

Yazdanparast died in hospital late last night, following the blaze at

:04:18.:04:21.

Venus Hair and Beauty. A man was also seriously injured in the fire,

:04:21.:04:25.

which started in the cellar. Police say they're not looking for anyone

:04:25.:04:28.

else in connection with the incident.

:04:28.:04:30.

20 charities and poverty campaigners are joining together to raise

:04:30.:04:34.

awareness about deprivation. It's estimated 200,000 children are

:04:34.:04:36.

living below the bread line, with many going hungry. The organisation

:04:37.:04:41.

Children in Scotland claims the situation is getting worse. These

:04:41.:04:50.

problems have been with us for decades and we really need some

:04:50.:04:54.

political will, but well at every level. Charities like mine,

:04:54.:05:03.

organisations that if they say they care for children, then we have to

:05:03.:05:06.

think about what more we can do to invest in those areas and those

:05:07.:05:09.

families, and that might be at a cost to others, but I think now is

:05:09.:05:12.

the time when we have to realise we cannot go on.

:05:12.:05:14.

A valuable bronze artwork by Henry Moore has been stolen from an open

:05:14.:05:18.

air sculpture park in Dumfries and Galloway. Standing Figure was

:05:18.:05:21.

created in 1950, one of four Moore pieces at the sculpture park by the

:05:21.:05:24.

Glenkiln Reservoir near Shawhead. Police say it's worth a high value

:05:24.:05:30.

and are appealing for witnesses. Let's look at the weather. Settled

:05:30.:05:39.

as we head into Sunday afternoon, but a clearly look for many with

:05:39.:05:43.

this big band of cloud across other in Scotland, lovely sunshine through

:05:43.:05:46.

premature and the West Highlands, and that is how it will stay this

:05:46.:05:51.

afternoon. Cloud in the East producing rain towards the

:05:51.:05:54.

south-east, especially extending up towards Aberdeenshire later. Cool

:05:54.:05:59.

under that cloud, breezy for the south-east, lighter winds in the

:05:59.:06:03.

West and no reason why we shouldn't see 12 or 13 for the North West

:06:03.:06:09.

Highlands. By next update is at 6:10pm. Soon, we will discuss the

:06:09.:06:14.

Highlands. By next update is at big events coming up at Holyrood,

:06:14.:06:18.

but first let's look back at the week in 60 seconds.

:06:18.:06:27.

Owners of the Grangemouth oil refinery have urged workers not to

:06:27.:06:31.

go ahead with a planned strike, warning it could shut most of

:06:31.:06:36.

Scotland. The Queen's Batten relay has begun

:06:36.:06:41.

its tour of Commonwealth countries. It will return to Scotland for a 40

:06:41.:06:44.

day tour ahead of next summer's games.

:06:44.:06:48.

The Scottish Government is to take Prestwick airport into public

:06:48.:06:52.

ownership after the current owners failed to find a buyer. It has been

:06:52.:06:58.

losing £2 million a year. Sir Menzies Campbell, the former

:06:58.:07:02.

Liberal Democrat leader says he will stand down at the next general

:07:02.:07:06.

election. Professor peter Higgs was awarded

:07:06.:07:13.

the Nobel Prize for physics, having been recognised for his work on the

:07:13.:07:19.

Higgs boson particle. And I'm delighted and rather relieved it is

:07:19.:07:23.

all over, because it has been a long time coming.

:07:23.:07:31.

If that was the week that was, let's turn to the week ahead. With me this

:07:31.:07:40.

week, Simon Johnson, Scottish political editor of the Daily

:07:40.:07:44.

Telegraph, and the vice-chair of Scottish CND, Isobel Lindsay. We

:07:44.:07:49.

were talking to Alistair Carmichael earlier. He was calling for more

:07:49.:07:53.

ordinary people to become involved in the independence debate. Given

:07:53.:07:58.

your involved with women for independence, is there a grassroots

:07:58.:08:02.

campaign that perhaps politicians are missing out on? Yes, the DS site

:08:02.:08:08.

has great strength in terms of the community, especially last Sunday

:08:08.:08:15.

night I was at a meeting and you had 120 turning out to a yes meeting.

:08:15.:08:20.

Throughout the country, the Yes campaign struggles with the media

:08:20.:08:24.

but it has a lot of strength in terms of the community and activity,

:08:24.:08:32.

and that will continue and build. Is that despite politicians goes like

:08:32.:08:37.

I've they failing to engage people? My personal view is that a lot of

:08:37.:08:41.

people are sick and tired of the referendum. We still have a year to

:08:41.:08:47.

go and people outside the Holyrood bubble have been saying we are still

:08:47.:08:53.

talking about this, in the last six weeks all these issues will come to

:08:53.:08:57.

the poor and we will have debates and a serious look at the

:08:57.:09:02.

proposition from each side, but the referendum campaign is so long but I

:09:02.:09:05.

think a lot of people are sick and tired of it already. There is a

:09:05.:09:12.

referendum story in Scotland on Sunday today, saying a former First

:09:12.:09:17.

Minister has backed an SNP appealed to political rivals for grandees

:09:17.:09:20.

like him and Jack McConnell to become part of the negotiating

:09:20.:09:28.

campaign it is yes vote. You think others will follow suit? No, Henry

:09:28.:09:34.

is going on a political journey and he has made a series of

:09:34.:09:38.

interventions that have been helpful to nationalists. It is a bit of

:09:38.:09:43.

mischief. You are talking about something that if you look at

:09:43.:09:47.

opinion polls on Friday, 50% voting no, 28% yes, so you might as well as

:09:47.:09:54.

me what kind of Lamborghini I would buy if I won the lottery, . In terms

:09:54.:10:02.

of what might happen after a yes vote, can you understand why those

:10:02.:10:06.

supporting the union do not want to engage? Yes, because as soon as you

:10:06.:10:12.

get people focused on the exciting things we could do with

:10:12.:10:15.

independence, you start getting people in gay in that very campaign,

:10:15.:10:20.

and this is what the no side doesn't want. They want to keep people fixed

:10:20.:10:25.

on the negative. Once you turn to the positive, it is a game for the

:10:25.:10:29.

yes people, and I don't think we will have any difficulty think

:10:29.:10:34.

Scottish grandees, although I hope we will be careful that ordinary

:10:34.:10:40.

Scots also get engaged in transition processes, but if there was a yes

:10:40.:10:44.

vote, no shortage of people prepared to get involved in creating a new

:10:44.:10:50.

society in Scotland. But this is something the no side will not

:10:50.:10:56.

really discuss. No, because by discussing it, and this is what

:10:56.:11:02.

nationalists want to happen, you make it seem like there is an

:11:02.:11:08.

inevitability about of it, it is more likely to happen than it is, so

:11:08.:11:12.

they will not play into that agenda and will stay away from that. Let's

:11:12.:11:18.

talk about another story, this strike next week at the Grangemouth

:11:18.:11:22.

chemical plant, 48 hours from next Sunday. How concerned should

:11:22.:11:30.

Scotland be about this? I gather there are enough reserves for the

:11:30.:11:35.

strike next week in a few days, but it is concerning because the

:11:35.:11:38.

management and workers seem at loggerheads with each other, and the

:11:38.:11:42.

language that is being used, blackmail and things like that, you

:11:42.:11:47.

want them to knock some heads together or get some cooler heads

:11:47.:11:51.

and say, this is millions of pounds for the economy, which is still in

:11:51.:11:57.

recovery, people trying to get to work across the country, you have a

:11:57.:12:00.

responsibility to reach an agreement, and people will find it

:12:00.:12:06.

difficult to understand that this is being considered over what seems to

:12:06.:12:09.

be an issue regarding an individual convener in there. It seems out of

:12:09.:12:15.

proportion to the problem, and I hope cooler heads prevail. A

:12:15.:12:20.

difficult one for politicians because the do not want to become

:12:20.:12:24.

involved in the dispute with they are trying to negotiate the future

:12:24.:12:28.

of this plan. It is difficult to understand what the owners are up to

:12:28.:12:33.

because they seem to want to have a strike. Obviously they want to

:12:33.:12:36.

reduce their costs, they want concessions from the unions, but why

:12:36.:12:44.

would you pick on a shop stewards convener on disciplinary action on a

:12:44.:12:47.

comparatively minor issue, knowing this will provoke the union into

:12:47.:12:53.

taking action? Why pick on that issue? Why not just say they want

:12:53.:13:00.

negotiations on how they can help to make the plant more viable and get

:13:00.:13:06.

into constructive discussion, but by persisting on that disciplinary

:13:06.:13:09.

action, they seem to want to be provoking a strike. Next week, we

:13:09.:13:16.

have the SNP conference. What do the SNP have to do regards

:13:16.:13:21.

independence? Salmond had a difficult balancing act. Polls are

:13:21.:13:26.

great for them at the moment but he needs to say we can turn this

:13:26.:13:30.

around, get them fired up, it also needs to be speaking out to people

:13:30.:13:35.

in the real world and try to paint a vision for them of what independent

:13:35.:13:39.

Scotland might be, because it has been quite scatter-gun. We will

:13:39.:13:44.

leave it there, but thank you both for coming to speak to us. That is

:13:44.:13:49.

all from us this week. We are back at 11am next week. Goodbye, and

:13:49.:13:52.

enjoy your Sunday.

:13:52.:13:54.

Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr are joined by the new Scottish secretary, Alistair Carmichael, Conservative cabinet minister Ken Clarke, former Liberal Democrat cabinet minister Chris Huhne and Labour MP Diane Abbott.


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