13/10/2013 Sunday Politics Scotland


Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr are joined by the new Scottish secretary, Alistair Carmichael, Ken Clarke, Chris Huhne and Labour MP Diane Abbott.

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Morning, folks. Welcome to the veritable pot pourri that is this


morning's Sunday Politics Stakes. We'll have the new Scottish


Secretary, Alistair Carmichael. We'll be asking him what ease got


that his predecessor, Michael Moore hasn't.


Like a Duracell bunny, Ken Clarke just keeps going and going. He'll be


banging his drum for Europe. Free of the shackles of government,


former Energy Secretary Chris Huhne will be with us. We'll be asking him


for the inside scoop. And Diane Abbott will be joining us


too. That nasty Ed Miliband sent her packing last week. We'll find out


why. And on Sunday Politics Scotland, 25


years on from the iconic single Letter From America, we revisit the


industrial heartlands and ask, is Scottish industry still no more?


a job but failed miserably, Mick watt, Miranda Green Andijan an


Ganesh. They'll Tweet like mad as if their lives depended on it


throughout the programme. Is Ed Miliband's Labour Party moving


to the left or right? Last week, a chid owe Cabinet reshuffle was seen


a a shift to the lot of. Two have announced policy changes which could


indicate he moved back to the middle. New shadows Work and


Pensions Secretary Rachel Reeves says Labour will be tougher on the


Tories. While Tristram Hunt says Labour loves Tory-style free schools


after all. Here he is on the BBC earlier this morning.


I've one message for you and viewers. If you are a group of


parents, social entrepreneurs, teachers, interested in setting up a


school in areas where you need new school place, the Labour Government


will be on your side. That's free schools. We are in favour of


enterprise and innovation. It will schools. We are in favour of


be in areas of need. We have a school places crisis going on. It


will have properly qualified school places crisis going on. It


teachers in these schools. And thirdly, systems of financial


accountability. What is going on with the Al Madina school is because


of terrible mistakes with Michael Gove's policy.


I'm not sure if the policies have changed, the change of tone is


remarkable, both on welfare and free schools. A significant change of


tone. It was interesting the reshuffle on the Labour frontbench


last week was init wered as a purge of Blair rights. It seemed to be a


purge of anti-reform thinking. Rachel Reeves was not saying anythi


different on substance but saying Labour will be tough than the Tories


on welfare. You've seen that clip from Tristram, free schools will be


allowed to be set up in areas of need. Greater oversight. But a


completely different change of tone, we are on the side of parents and


social entrepreneurs who want to set these up. A different change. Why


are they doing this? On education, so far the debate has been


polarised. You've had the Michael Gove uber reformers in the


department. This weekend, we've had leaked memos from one of Michael


Gove's advisers which are extreme views about the state of education.


And on the other side teaching unions. It hasn't led to a healthy


debate which represents what parents want out of schools or employers.


This is a huge move from the Labour Party to sound more reasonable. They


have been silent on education which is a huge policy area on the left.


Is this a focus group-driven change? They've seen the polls. Welfare


reforms are hugery popular and free schools for those who have them? You


only apiece the focus groups by changing the policy substantially. I


always thought a test for this Labour reshuffle was not whether Ed


Miliband would promote Blair rights, it is clear he did, it is whether


they would be allowed to be Blair rights. When Stephen Twigg carried


the education portfolio it was clear his own views were closer to the


Government than he was allowed to let on. He was constrained. There is


no point of giving Tristram Hunt this job if he is not allowed to say


what he thinks. I wouldn't mind betting privately he thinks free


schools should be available beyond just areas of need. He hasn't yet


defined need. It could be, we've run out of places or the existing


schools are so bad we need schools. If that is it, it is the same Asics


itsing Government policy. In they are in schools rated as


unsatisfactory that's no different. He wanted to say he was in favour of


higher educational standards and rigour, he had to tell the audience


he has a Cambridge PhD to attack Michael Gove. That was difficult for


Tristram Hunt he had to mention that. Is that worth something, a PhD


from Cambridge? Obviously to him it is. He said they would demand proper


teaching qualifications. That could count him out. He does some


teaching? Independent schools do not have to have teachers with formal


teaching qualifications. I've never been to one? What about you? That


decision by Michael Gove to allow free schools to employ nonunionised


and non-trained people, so he has to say that.


Watch this space. The dust settled after the party resufficients. Do


the Tories look a bit more like Britain. Do the Tories look more


like Labour? Here's guiles. #4 With reshuffles, you're never


really certain. There's whispers, rumours, guesses. But the only way


to know it is underway is keeping beady eyes on a front door. Up until


now, the only way we knew who was in and who was out was who came walking


down this bit of Downing Street with a smile on their face after going to


see the boss. The once who are to be sacked, they usually go round the


back. Not this time. No, something new alerted us all. The-PM started


it. It was an extraordinary day. I can't remember a triple decker


reshuffle where you've three parties changing ministerial teams at the


same time. The fact is that resufficient happened on Twitter.


Not that the press stopped watching the door as well. News was a bit


slow in coming until Alastair Charmichael replaced Michael Moore,


the first to be pounced on. I'm disappointed to be leaving office


now but pleased at what I've been able to achieve in the last couple


of years. Not as pleased as one imagines as the man receiving the


welcome that went on, and on and on... And on... And on!


#4 The welcomer, who was simultaneously having Jeremy Browne,


in a sense seen off the premises of the Home Office in conspiracy to let


Norman Baker sing a tune. the Home Office in conspiracy to let


# Blowing hi Jude through a traffic cone... # #.


The brutality of the Liberal Democrats. We tend to think they are


herbivorous. Sacking a Cabinet Minister, another minister, Jeremy


Browne. By lunch time, the Tory ranks were shifting too. The PM keen


to boost the numbers of telegenic women walking into Government and


turning perceptions around. He tipped a so-called flatcap to men


from the north or more humble backgrounds with room for some which


fitted neither label but are friends of George Osborne. And, all the


while, those new Tory ministers were learning of Labour's changes. Labour


too knows the value of new young blood striding into the limelight.


Again some with TV experience of that. Tristram Hunt and Gloria de


peer row would be hard to describe as hard left. But Blairbrushing the


past out of the picture seemed to be the name of the day. Liam Byrne


moved from higher profile roles. With Diane Abbott also gone, was


this really a Blair right cull? It depends what you mean. Blair right


used to mean someone who wanted Tony depends what you mean. Blair right


Blair to be leader of the Labour Party. Somebody who worked closely


with him. Now it means sometimes people who believe in a certain set


of ideologyies or ideas. There are still very much those kind of Blair


rights within the party. But we are seeing the group around Tony Blair


are not long assassin flew enjoys as they once were. By evening, it was


over. New bees were sharing the spoils of winner while ousted


ministers quietly thanked commits raters. Or -- commiserators. Or one


angry ex-wife bemoaned their dismissal.


Disappointment in politics is disified. How much much someone


standing here might want it to be the case, you are unlikely to get


someone coming out of that do going "how could." And running off crying!


And the brand, spanking new Scottish Secretary Alastair Charmichael joins


us from Orkney on a line that hasn't been used since the fleet was used


in the outbreak of World War I! I wasn't around at the time. I'm


hearing you loud and clear. Why have you agreed to run a department? That


you wanted to abolish six years ago? Hello? Maybe our connections are not


so great after all. Alastair Charmichael. Can you hear me? I can


hear you now. There was a nasty second there where you disappeared.


Let me try the question again. Why have you agreed to run a department


you wanted to abolish six years ago? Because this is the, probably one of


the most important jobs in British politics at the moment. To ensure


that Scotland remains part of the UK. Even when I was talking about


the reconfiguration of rep sen Taigs of Scotland -- representation of


Scotland within Whitehall, there was always a job to be done. That is


true in spades now. I will focus on making sure the UK Government has a


real voice in that debate. What have you that Michael Moore didn't have?


Look, I think Michael Moore did an excellent job. The work he did


delivering the Edinburgh agreement to ensure we got a proper, fair,


clear legal and decisive referendum, the work delivering extra powers to


the Scottish Parliament was a substantial piece of work. I'm not


comparing myself to Michael. He's a friend of mine. I will say that as


we go forward into this, this is now about the actual debate itself. I


will be putting the case, with some passion, I hope, for Scotland to


remain part of the UK. This isn't just some abstract debate about


nationhood, sovereignty, this is a real debate about people's jobs,


their livelihoods, the cost of their mortgage. That and an awful lot


more. For that, I relish the challenge. I understand that. But if


you're being put in there to save the union, every pole has the no --


poll has the no campaign margin alley ahead. Mr Moore was doing


pretty well to save the union. I suspect you've been given the job to


save the Liberal Democrats in Scotland? And lieu, you misread the


situation if you -- Andrew, you misread the situation new think


anybody is going to be the person who will save the union. The people


who will save the union are the people of Scotland if they turn out


next year and vote to save the union. We have to put the case for


that. That is what I will be doing. Look at the position of your own


party. You came fourth in the last Scottish parentry elections. You


party. You came fourth in the last were even behind the Conservatives.


The latest poll has you still in fourth. Are you there because you're


a bruiser and you will pep up the Liberal Democrats opportunity in


Scotland. If I had a pound for everybody to referred to me as being


Scotland. If I had a pound for a bruiser, I wouldn't need to be


sitting here this morning. I could have retired by now. The truth of


this, if I can address it once and for all, I have done probably one of


the most complex and subtle jobs in British politics for the last


three-and-a-half years, Liberal Democrat Chief Whip in a Coalition


Government. I would not have survived in that job a week, let


alone three-and-a-half years, if I was the sort of person who went


around picking unnecessary fights. So, can we just please forget about


this business about being a bruiser. As far as the position of the party


in the polls, this is true also of the referendum vote, opinion polls


in the polls, this is true also of are a snapshot. They are not a


prediction of what will happen in the future. I will be out there


putting the case. Neither the next election nor the referendum is one


or lost yet. One of the things I really want to be guarding against


is the complacency which says because we are a good margin ahead


today, 12 months out from the actual polling day, that it is in the bag.


today, 12 months out from the actual Believe me, Andrew, it is not. As


you know, wasn't for the Liberal Democrats. Not just talking about


the polls. You came fourth in the real poll in the Scottish


Parliamentary elections. You said you were happy to facial


ex-Salmond in a TV debade. Should David Cameron face him? I am happy


ex-Salmond in a TV debade. Should to face anybody who wants to


debate. Should David Cameron face him? No, because that allows Alex


Salmond and the Scottish Nationalists to portray this as some


sort of contest or choice between a vision of Scottish social democracy


and English conservativism, which it is not. This is a debate that has to


be held in Scotland about the future of Scotland amongst Scots. David


Cameron has a very important part in Scotland's public life, but he is


not Scottish and I think he will accept Commies edit himself in fact,


the person who should be debating with Alex Salmond is Alistair


Darling. He has got a Scottish name and his family hails from the


wealthiest of Scotland at some stage in the past. Anyway, you described


the campaign to keep the union together as lacking passion, were


you referring to the campaign or Alistair Darling? I was not


referring to Alistair Darling. I think what I was saying is that as


we move into this new stage, and Alistair Darling said it himself, we


are now campaigning for people 's hearts because if you look at the


range of papers the Government has published, it is pretty clear the


arguments lie in relation to the head. I am not giving up the battle


for the hearts and Scotland because there is a good strong case, as


somebody who is proud to be Scottish and to be British, for Scotland to


remain part of the UK. You come from an island that has eight


distilleries and I understand you haven't even had a single


celebratory drink for your new post. Not a drop has touched my lips. Not


supporting local business! I will be making up for lost time on the 1st


of November, I will be doing it in aid of Macmillan Cancer care and if


anybody wants to go to their website, they can donate. It is


worthwhile. I cannot think of a better cause. One Cabinet minister


who many thought might get Reef -- we shuffled but didn't is Ken


Clarke. Welcome to Sunday Politics. This reshuffle was about new blood,


more women and more ethnic minorities, where did you fit in? I


would describe myself as the elder statesman, to be polite, but it is


difficult to replace them. I enjoy it. It is a great privilege to have


a role in Cabinet and I will carry on as long as David wants me to do.


I have seen many reshuffles, they are dreadful and I seem to have


survived them so far. Did David Cameron talk to you before this


reshuffle? No, he didn't. I would have had expected a phone call,


asking, how do you think about stepping down, but he didn't and my


role is one of giving my wit and wisdom to the Cabinet and meetings


of the Security Council so he has got to put up with me a bit longer.


You said you are going to stand again at the next election, why do


you keep going? What do you hope to achieve in politics? I am mostly a


political anorak, I have been since I was very small, by the process of


politics but the older I get I get more concerned about the good


governance of the country and at the moment the combination of problems


is quite appalling. The difficulty of tackling the modern world is very


difficult and I find it fascinating. The old argument that attracts every


decent person into politics, you might be able sometimes to make a


bit of difference, and I try to do that. I try not to hark back on my


experience but we will have a lot of tough problems which I think the


Conservative Government will have to tackle. You opposed referenda on


Maastricht, the Lisbon Treaty, you were even against one on Britain


adopting the euro. It must follow that you are against the referenda


on Britain's membership to the EU? I am always for holding people


accountable to the long-term and medium term consequences of


decisions they take as representatives, but this is a


generational thing. I am in a minority now and my colleagues have


firmly decided a referendum needs to be held to settle the question of


Britain's relationship with the European Union which I think is one


of the most important things in politics. It will determine


Britain's place in the modern world and determine whether our


politicians are able to look after the living standards, the economy,


the safety against terrorism. Last the living standards, the economy,


summer you said that only extreme nationalists wanted a silly EU


referendum. It follows your party must be full of extremely silly


nationalists. The people who are desperate to have a referendum are


all the people who actually want to leave the European Union. The


referendum will involve the public and people like me have got to get


across to the public, don't just feel angry about the last thing you


read in the newspaper about what the commission is or is not doing, do


bear in mind this is our base in the modern world. We happen to be a


leading member, almost as valuable and rich as the Americans, from


there we can have a greater influence in events. That is not


just how the politicians get on the world stage, it is how the


politicians look after us when we face danger from terrorism is


spilling over from the Middle East, or we face public services being


threatened. You didn't even turn up to vote for the bill which will give


us a referendum. I had other engagements on the Friday concerned.


It seemed to get through without my participation. You didn't want to be


seen voting for something your heart is not in. Let's be honest here.


Look, many of your colleagues I have interviewed say that if the choice


was between the state -- the status quo with the European Union and


leaving, they would leave. The truth is that you would vote to stay in


even on the status quo, wouldn't you? I haven't spent so long


supporting the EU to leave now if I got chance. I think our economy is


much stronger than it would have been if we were outside the EU. We


have continued attracting investment, as in Washington last


week. We are trying to roll forward the prospect of free trade and I


have to reassure Americans that we are not likely to leave the EU to


make sure they will invest here. That is true but it also needs


reform. The cry for reform, which is echoed in other countries,


particularly Germany, is a good one. Even if David Cameron came back with


nothing from Brussels, you would still vote to stay in, correct?


Going off to be a small economy, and one which is dwindling in comparison


with others, in the modern world it would be dangerous. I also think the


dangers of the Middle East and the dangers of some of the countries


between EU and Russia are considerable, we shouldn't


disengage. I will take that as a yes. I do think reform can


strengthen the case, and of some members of the public don't agree


with me, I trust they will be persuaded when David delivers his


reforms. The latest poll gives Labour a ten point lead over the


Tories and the reason why it has a ten point lead is because UKIP are


up there with 18% of the vote and ten point lead is because UKIP are


the Tory vote has slumped in the Paul to 27%. How would you see off


UKIP? By saying you need a strong Paul to 27%. How would you see off


and effective Government. We faced terrible problems. Every Government


I have been in has been behind in the polls. This Government is not as


popular as the previous Government I have served in under the three


previous prime ministers. When you get an election, people have to ask


themselves who do we want to decide the issues of war and peace in this


country? Who do we want to get us out of our economic problems. I


don't think Ed Miliband is up to it. That generalised stuff will not see


off UKIP. People will not listen to that. When people answer an opinion


poll, they tell you how annoyed they are by something that has recently


upset them, but people are more sensible than this. Every Government


I have served in has been behind in the polls. At a general election you


have to mobilise the public to start thinking, who do we want to govern


us? They did take over a calamitous situation, and there are very


important problems to be decided going forward. UKIP represents


anti-immigration, anti-foreigners, anti-Europe, anti-politics but I


don't think it will get 18% of the opinion -- the polls in any


election. Thank you. Once upon a time, a


politician whose career ended in disgrace might choose to lie low for


a while, perhaps to spend a bit more time tending the tulips and doing


the odd bit of charity work. Not Chris Huhne. He walked free from


prison only five months ago but the former Energy Secretary is already


back in the public eye - a column in the Guardian, a job with a renewable


energy firm, even the odd TV interview. So is he working on a


political rehabilitation? Chris Huhne, welcome to the Sunday


Politics. The answer to that is clearly know, and thank you for


inviting me back. You have set your career in politics is over so what


does the future hold for you? I am happy doing what I am doing, I am


passionate about green energy and climate change, so I am doing things


on that front in terms of business and work for think tanks and


non-governmental organisations, and I am doing a column for the Guardian


on Mondays. You obviously get a lot of material from the Sunday Politics


to write about. Have you embarked on political rehabilitation? It was


clear from the point of view of the George when I was sentenced, he


said, this is not about rehabilitating you, because I had


not offended for ten years, it was actually about stopping people like


not offended for ten years, it was you, Andrew, Ron doing the same


thing. It was a deterrent effect for the public. That is I think why the


prosecution was brought. I had not offended for ten years on this,


either in terms of speeding points... But you are out to


rehabilitate yourself in the public? I have been a journalist,


rehabilitate yourself in the public? coalition to the bitter end? Or


should they re-establish their own identity? My view is that the


Coalition agreement is for the whole Parliament, and the Lib Dems are


going to stay, and should stay. What would be a good result for the Lib


Dems in 2015? The loss of ten, 15 seats? I think it will be an


interesting election because I think you will have essentially three


party leaders, all of whom are unpopular. It is almost


unprecedented that they have negative ratings so it will be a


battle between the walking wounded. In those circumstances, in my view,


the Lib Dems can come out very well. But you will lose seats, won't


you? It is far too early to say. If the Liberal Democrats do badly in


next year's European elections, you could come fourth on fifth behind


the Greens. Will Nick Clegg's leadership be in jeopardy? I've been


in countless cycles where we've had very low poll ratings. The normal


pickup to the subsequent general election on average has been 10


percentage points. So he's not in jeopardy? I think Nick will be there


at the next general election. I think he'll lead the party into the


next general election. I expect we'll do much better than most


people think. If we are heading for another hung Parliament, which is


what the Liberal Democrats want. Let's be honest, you'd rather be in


coalition with the Labour Party than have a repeat of the Conservatives?


One of the key things I sawed to colleagues, whatever your personal


preference, I used to be a Labour Party member, you can derive from


that I'm on the left of centre of the party. I always said to my


colleagues in the party, it is absolutely crucial to remember that


colleagues in the party, it is the we are in politics because we


are Liberal Democrats, not because we are either Conservatives or


second best Labour. If you don't take that view, you don't have any


bargaining position when it You said you are keeping up your


interest in energy matters. Is Ed Miliband right to promise a


temporary price freeze with Mike we have posturing on energy prices. It


is not essential policy. It was tried in California in 2001, one of


the factors which led to blackout. We have the Prime Minister promising


we should shift everyone onto the lowest possible tariff which would


mean all the big six on one tariff, so we are getting populist


claptrap. So you are against the price freeze? It is a bad idea when


we are trying to encourage investment and when the market can


give us some of the lowest gas and liquidity prices in Europe. Britain


has some of the lowest. The other European prices are only higher


because they put more taxes on it. Base prices are among the highest in


Europe. If you look at new comparisons in terms of what goes


out to households, the reality... That is after taxes. Conservatives


claim there are taxes being put on our energy. You are one of the


people responsible for long ring us with these taxes which are adding


over £100 to the average build. Why don't you cut some of these taxes


and make it cheaper? That is nonsense and that is coming from


people like George Osborne who should know better, because one


hypocrisy of this is that the one person in the government who has


added green taxes was George Osborne with that carbon price floor. We put


it into the coalition agreement because the Conservatives wanted it.


The Lib Dems did not want it, we do not needed to drive


decarbonisation, it was a revenue raising measure by the Tories and it


set of a load of hair is about green taxes which are now coming home to


roost. You are a big supporter of Leveson style press regulation, so


will you stop writing for the Guardian if it refuses to sign up to


the charter? I think that is neither here nor there. The Guardian is a


great platform. If it doesn't sign up to what you believe in, will you


stop supporting it? I am sure they will let me make that point. I think


newspapers will sign up to it because they have a collapse in


public trust and confidence unparalleled for every other


business. They need a third-party endorsement to say they have cleaned


up their act and the going to get trust back, and they will. When they


haven't signed up, you can come back and talk about it. You are watching


Sunday Politics. Good morning, and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.


Coming up on the programme: More from the new Secretary of State for


Scotland and the challenges facing him over the next year.


And is this just a nostalgic anthem from the '80s? Or 25 years on, has


there been such a dramatic change in Scotland's industrial landscape?


Alistair Carmichael is the UK government's new man in Scotland, or


Scotland's new man in the UK Government, depending on your


viewpoint. As he gets to grips with the job, Mr Carmichael will be


assessing the challenges ahead. So what are they? Andrew Kerr reports.


The office of Secretary of State for Scotland doesn't often make it into


the new key news, let alone comedy shows. There was another man


promoted in this reshuffle, Alistair Carmichael who is now Secretary of


State for Scotland, and I would remember his name, anyone who


watches pointless, because in 18 months he will be an answer.


Alistair Carmichael has been passed over twice that now he has the job,


he is Chief Whip, in that position he would not be known to the public,


that is behind-the-scenes and any Chief Whip would find that, but now


he will be in the spotlight and be interested to see what he does.


Third time lucky perhaps, a Secretary of State who can last the


course. After moving on from Nick Clegg, he is getting to grips with


his office and the challenges he faces, especially how the referendum


debate is directed. I think his main challenge in the next 12 months is


to argue the case for the union from a perhaps more colourful or in a


more colourful way than it has been argued so far. I think Carmichael


will need to bring into the argument for the union in Scotland the other


parts of the UK. At the Royal heart of the UK, the Scottish secretary


had his first front row engagement at Buckingham Palace this week for


the Batten relay. In the referendum race, he is running side-by-side


with Labour and Tory colleagues and will have to form close relations


with key figures in Better Together. He will also have to manage


perceptions of visiting UK ministers. He has clearly clocked


what the problem is, which is having ministers like Philip Hammond


appearing to give lectures to Scots on how they should run their


affairs, but saying he. These lecture tours is one thing. Delivery


is another, and I don't think he will be able to stop George Osborne


giving Scots lectures on whether they can use the pound after


independence. Perhaps that is a mountain to climb of though that


brings its own problems. Challenge three, how to reconcile long-held


political views in the context of the referendum debate. Liberal


Democrats have been Federalists for a long time. They have argued that


the constitution needs to move on and more powers should be given to


Scotland, so it will be interesting to see what role he plays in the


debate. Well he pushes Tory colleagues at Westminster to come up


with a scheme to make some kind of concrete alternative to


independence, so I think he may be caught between a rock and a hard


place between David Cameron and Alex Salmond. There are plenty of issues


for Mr Carmichael to grapple with. He has a year to get them right. If


he doesn't, he could be out of a job. In our Orkney studio is the man


himself. Good afternoon. You talked earlier about putting passion in the


debate. At the Scottish office been too conciliatory with the SNP and


the Scottish Government? We have a day-to-day job to do in terms of


managing Scotland's reputation in Whitehall and Westminster, so in


that you have to be considered very, but in the wider little debate, we


are entering a new phase. We are now in the countdown to the day which


matters and I think all parties need to put more spark and passion into


this debate, but let me be clear. This is not just about politicians,


because politicians are alone cannot run this debating. We need to hear


from teachers, nurses, doctors, lawyers, from business people, from


people looking to start up their own business, the widest possible range


of people in Scotland have got to find a voice in this debating which


I don't think we have had yet. When that happens you will see more


colour coming into the debate. Why do you think they have not been


taking part in the debate? Has been bogged down in political


technicalities? I think the debate has been ridiculously prolonged. I


feel as if this is already gone on my entire adult life and we still


have 12 months until we get to the polling booth. I would not have


foreseen the need for a campaign of this length. That was Alex


Salmond's choice, not ours. I don't know that politicians necessarily


can do with an their own, but need to bring in a wider range of people


and I really want the widest possible range. I had a lunch with


businessmen in Edinburgh who all told me they had real concerns about


what could happen if we did vote yes. I think they need to stop


telling me that and start telling the rest of the country. Why hasn't


that happened? I think it will happen now as mines concentrate


closer to the day. If there is a yes vote, you follow on from what


Michael Morris said, that that would be your moment to start negotiating


for Scotland? I fight for Scotland every day, and I have done. What


would be your position after a yes vote? I would take the same


position. I see no real need to move from that, but that is a hypothesis


on top of a supposition. What we need to be doing is instead of


coming up with a fantasy structure about how we would negotiate after a


yes vote, we ought to be getting in there, having the debate, explaining


the issues about jobs, mortgages, the role we can have in the rest of


the world, rather than obsessing with things that might interest


journalists and politicians but are not what concern the public. Some of


those issues were raised by your Cabinet colleagues when they came


north recently. Which of them have been arrogant in the way they


delivered their message? Less top put words in my mouth. I never said


anyone had been arrogant when they came north. You accept that, surely.


Sorry, I've just lost any sound. Can you still hear me? I can hear you


again. Can I just explain this question about arrogance. What I was


talking about when I said we shouldn't all we see coming to


Scotland as a lecture tour is that a great deal is happening in Scotland


from which they can learn, and one very small example, the reader may


was talking this week about the National crime agency -- Theresa


May. Opportunities to tackle organised crime across the UK is an


important argument in this referendum, but she also said this


is something that could be used to tackle gang violence. I said to her


that is great, there is a great story about what Strathclyde Police


were doing in Glasgow in tackling gang violence, so please come up,


hear what they are doing and be ready to take it away and


implemented or to borrow on our experience. We are all still part of


the UK, and she said she knew about that work, and she had had


Strathclyde Police don't, but there was a chance for her to come to


Scotland in future. Has Whitehall got it wrong when it


talks about things like fast lane still being part of the geographical


rest of the UK if Scotland voted yes? I think perhaps we occasionally


have opened up an opportunity of ourselves or our opponents, rather,


to portray us in a negative light. But I think if you look across the


piece, five or six papers, there has been a substantial well referenced


pieces of work and I think that actually you can contrast that very


well with the approach that is being taken to the campaign by the yes


campaign which has been simple -- simply to assert things left, right


and centre. I go back to my time working as a lawyer. It is the


moment that every lawyer dreads which is when the sheriff pulls the


glasses down over his nose and says, what is your authority for that


proposition Mr Carmichael? The SNP, when they are asserting a position,


have got no authority. They say similar things about the papers that


Westminster producers. The White Paper is coming out. It is therefore


people to judge for themselves. He talked earlier in your interview...


You talked about your previous job as chief whip being complex and


subtle. What sort of subtleties will you bring to the White Paper when it


comes out from the Scottish Government as that will be a big bit


of work? I am losing a feed so did not quite the question. In terms of


the White Paper, it remains to be seen what is in it, I hope it is


more substantial than everything we have seen from the campaign so far


but I am not holding good faith. I get the feeling that as we enter the


next 12 months in terms of this being a battle between the arguments


of the head and of the heart, in terms of the arguments of the head,


then we are in a dominant position. Will there be a united front from


your party and your Better Together partners on what happens if there is


your party and your Better Together a no vote? I hope there will be a


united front in as much as we will all recognise that the clear will of


the Scottish people, that there should be extra powers... Will you


be bringing them together to get a united position? That is an


important part of it and also I would like to see the SNP as part of


that, because they have an important voice, an important role to play. If


you look back over the recent history, the SNP have always said on


the Constitutional Convention, we don't want to be part of that, we


are only interested in independence. On the commission that delivered


substantial extra powers to the parliament, they said exactly the


same sort of thing again. This time, once we have settled the


independence question, there will be no other way for the SNP to go. They


will have to be part... In regards to people you are working with... I


just want to ask, we are running out of time. Liberal home rule, I think


there will be a healthy influence and I welcome their participation.


Will there be a united position from the parties in Better Together ahead


of the referendum? You have to ask the other parties as well as the


might -- as well as myself. You will have a united position in as much as


there will be a wish to see extra powers, I do believe that. I don't


believe that you can -- don't think you can expect a specification of


what is powers will be. That is a process we will have to go through


once we have settled the independence question. Thank you for


joining us and thank you for bearing with us over the technical glitches.


Thank you. Last night, the Proclaimers played


Glasgow landmark 25 years since they broke through with Letter From


America. Is linked the Highland Clearances with the industrial


shutdown of the Thatcher era. We looked at the towns that are


supposed to be no more. We are still singing passionately


about industrial devastation in a song inspired by Tessa at Highland


has been cleared off their land. It was the painting that I thought


about. It was the contrast with that, obviously with the Clearances


of the 19th century and what was happening in the late 70s and 80s.


That is where it came from. Those -- it could have been many towns. It


could have been Kilmarnock come that. Those towns either had very


heavy job losses suddenly or unemployment blackspot and work


exploiting a lot of people. Those four sounded better going together


than others. That was 25 years ago. What has happened since? What does


it tell us about the Scottish economy? Figure two. -- let's take a


tour. Bathgate. I went to the site of a


plant where thousands of workers made trucks and tractors to hear


from locals. We knew what was going to happen. As closing the same


time. It was devastating. In fact, the unemployment rate went up to


about 25% in some areas. I dismember a civil servant at that time saying


to me, Mr Swan, -- I remember a civil servant. I can set up an


infrastructure that will allow us to civil servant. I can set up an


get more work back in full and will employ your sons and daughters. That


is what happened. But it took us 15 years to balance the economy out


again. The actual jobs came here, most left again. The rail line to


Edinburgh reopened. I think that may have made a big difference,


certainly after the factory closing, the link was established in


1986 to Edinburgh. Many of the people use Bathgate as a commuter


town, like the suburbs of London, people live here and it is more


affordable housing and Glasgow or Edinburgh. Not far from here, is


Broxburn. The meat... So biggest closure that we have seen. All of


the interesting factors is that the workforce were from Poland and


Lithuania and Estonia. In ways that few could have foreseen before the


Iron Curtain came down, that helps ensure that the tide of immigration


out of Scotland has been turned. What about the Linwood? It is home


to a car factory, birthplace of the humble Imp. On that site, the


Phoenix business Park, risen from the ashes and tells us a lot about


the modern economy. Where they made cars, there are now 18 dealerships.


My father worked here. Of course, the Proclaimers song when they sung


Linwood no more, it's resonated with me. That was a tragic time all of


the families around here. I saw my father go downhill in a year, he was


unemployed. I saw him aged ten or 15 years. I always felt I wanted to


have my own business so I could in some way be of control -- in control


of my destiny and so I could look at a team of people and make sure they


don't have to go through this. On this site, there are probably 4000


that worked here at the time. I think I should write to the


Proclaimers and tell them there is a Linwood. Where next? Used to five.


This is where they used to ship coal from Fife and then they built


jackets for North Sea platforms until this yard went silent. Then


came a second wind from North Sea oil and gas and a new wave of


renewable energy. So, methyl no more, far from it. This looks like a


next big thing in the Scottish economy. This was a successful you


are operated by many different companies. The yard was lying empty


for about seven years. Since then, with renewables and oil and gas, we


have generated employment for around 800 people with potential to


increase. This is 12,000 tonnes of oil platform bound for deep water,


there are apprentices being taken on, but the welding skills, they had


to hire from Poland. A test turbine is being put in by Samsung which


hopes to build more of them. Renewables are very important. We


will probably be Europe's leader in terms of manufacture of jackets for


offshore wind, we have an ambition to build new factories here and have


the capacity to build 150 jackets a year. What is delaying things?


Scottish independence, uncertainty, approval with EEM R and a clear


understanding of what is going to happen with renewables in the


future. Irvin in Ayrshire was the final town that was supposed to be


no more and it was a new town, it was not so much bigger dishes


clearing out, it was its young people who relax jobs. One went off


to Glasgow to study law. She was back recently to campaign for


independence. Irvin was the big metropolis, it was where you went on


a Saturday night. Went to the leisure centre which when I was


growing up was the first of its kind in Scotland. At the time of the


Proclaimers song, I was about 18. So when they were singing about your


town being no more, did that ring true to you? In a way. I had already


joined the SNP by then and the Proclaimers delivered this anthem


for the age. Unemployment was high and one of the things I strongly


from being at school was this fear of unemployment, because as I


remember it back then, unemployment was something that was terminal. If


you did not get a job or you lost a job, or it felt as if there could be


no hope of getting another one. How do you feel about opportunities now?


I think there are opportunities in Irvin. The council are working hard


to make sure that there are economic it -- opportunities here. There is a


big Pharma company. Epic life sciences -- a big life sciences


presents. For someone like my nephew, he is interested in


sciences, there are opportunities. The town centre regeneration fits


into this journey through Scotland and the time. What I have found is


an economy and people who have shown flexibility and resilience. We are


more skilled and more resourceful. Government made a difference through


building infrastructure for new ones. People have become more mobile


around the country and between countries. I think the song has


aged, there is no doubt about that. The world is different. Scotland


aged, there is no doubt about that. thankfully is a better place. I


think it feels more modern, it feels like it attitudes have moved on in


terms of things. But in terms of people being able to get work, I


wonder how much difference there is. My kids now, leaving school, trying


to get full-time work is very difficult.


Dreamy today is the economic commentator Alf Young and the


Economist Ailsa McKay from Glasgow can and university. Alf Young,


unemployment whited those areas but when we see the regeneration, the


change in the workforce, could it be argued as some said that


unemployment was a price worth paying? I think it took a very long


time to pay that price and a lot of people never really recovered from


it. I noted that Harry Burns, the senior medical figure in Scotland,


was saying that loss of industry, that loss of reason for being is a


major factor. Other problems that Scotland still try and combat in


terms of physical and mental health and the rest of it, but clearly a


lot of these places found a new future, there is no doubt about


that. But it took time. It took other hiccups along the way,


Bathgate had the car plant, it lost that. It then had bowed to roll up


making mobile phones, it lost that. There was a big silicon chip flat --


chip plant, it is now a distribution centre for Tesco. What has come out


of it all is not making so many things, but being a service economy.


Being dependent on what other people make and what they will sell at


that. We have not been that good, I think at regenerating the kind of


large-scale jobs -- job opportunities that would employ a


lot of people out with service call centres and that kind of thing. How


important are those large scale industries for a community's


self-worth? These big factories would be the heart of these


communities. We are now hearing that Bathgate is a commuter town.


Absolutely, I think your piece referred to the resilience of


families and local communities. Don't know about the changing face


of industry, but the changing face of the entertainment industry, I was


fortunate enough to see the Proclaimers last night and the


message when they played Letter From America was just as poignant as 25


years ago as we are still living with the consequences. The


consequences are dire. Because of the changing face of the public


sector versus the private sector and the lack of investment in the public


sector means that these families that did pick up the pieces when


women went out to work can no longer use that Avenue, women cannot find


work in the public sector any more in these areas. How much were these


changes are about political ideology and how much were they about changes


in the goods and services people wanted? A lot of it was about a


government that the side of that investing in all those old


industries like shipbuilding was no longer a price worth paying, so they


tried to restructure. The other thing we lost, and one of the things


I remember with great affection was a time when women in Greenock took


over a jean factory in the early 1980s, and Helen Monaghan and her


friends took over the factory and fought for their jobs, and there was


a kind of resilience about ordinary working people and what they thought


their claim to a role in society was, that seems to me to have


disappeared. I suppose there is also that issued that we focused on these


areas that have regenerated but other areas are still struggling,


parts of air sure that have not recovered from the collapse of


mining. Yes, your peace was quite optimistic, but Alf is right, one


thing we need to think about is the role of the public sector and the


ideology that forms thinking about its role, and it is not the enemy of


economic growth. At the concert last night, I felt like 25 years ago the


ideology reforming our economic policy is the same as the idea that


form economic policy them. It is not just about global conditions but


ideology in the free market of the public sector is the enemy of the


economy. We need to move beyond that thinking and that is the challenge


for the government, to talk about ideologies and frame the big picture


for Scotland. How much has the workforce change? We now see


immigration into Scotland that maybe we didn't 25 years ago, especially


with Polish workers and other communities coming here, so the


workforce is dynamic. It is, but it is also atomised, especially for


young people with no degree or great skills, finding meaningful work is


difficult. There are great ambiguities about where we are and I


suppose it is ambiguities that release back to that which in


Douglas's the long, that Nicholl painted, because the man on that


note, you don't know whether he is regretting what he is leaving behind


in the clearances or where he is going or what he is doing next, and


I think we are still with that ambiguity about what the future


holds, especially for the next generation. I think uncertainty was


mentioned in your peace, and there is uncertainty for young women.


Modern apprenticeships are creating jobs but the jobs for young men.


Young women are losing jobs and middle-aged women are losing jobs


that will never come back because the public sector has been


decimated, and that is what a lot of families in the 1980s relied on and


can no longer rely on now. Thank you both very much. You're watching


Sunday Politics Scotland from the BBC.


Still to come: a look at the week ahead with Simon Johnson from The


Daily Telegraph and veteran political campaigner Isobel Lindsay.


But first, let's cross to Andrew Kerr for the latest news from


Reporting Scotland. A murder investigation is under way


after a fire in a Stirling hair dressing salon. 46-year-old Ahdieh


Yazdanparast died in hospital late last night, following the blaze at


Venus Hair and Beauty. A man was also seriously injured in the fire,


which started in the cellar. Police say they're not looking for anyone


else in connection with the incident.


20 charities and poverty campaigners are joining together to raise


awareness about deprivation. It's estimated 200,000 children are


living below the bread line, with many going hungry. The organisation


Children in Scotland claims the situation is getting worse. These


problems have been with us for decades and we really need some


political will, but well at every level. Charities like mine,


organisations that if they say they care for children, then we have to


think about what more we can do to invest in those areas and those


families, and that might be at a cost to others, but I think now is


the time when we have to realise we cannot go on.


A valuable bronze artwork by Henry Moore has been stolen from an open


air sculpture park in Dumfries and Galloway. Standing Figure was


created in 1950, one of four Moore pieces at the sculpture park by the


Glenkiln Reservoir near Shawhead. Police say it's worth a high value


and are appealing for witnesses. Let's look at the weather. Settled


as we head into Sunday afternoon, but a clearly look for many with


this big band of cloud across other in Scotland, lovely sunshine through


premature and the West Highlands, and that is how it will stay this


afternoon. Cloud in the East producing rain towards the


south-east, especially extending up towards Aberdeenshire later. Cool


under that cloud, breezy for the south-east, lighter winds in the


West and no reason why we shouldn't see 12 or 13 for the North West


Highlands. By next update is at 6:10pm. Soon, we will discuss the


Highlands. By next update is at big events coming up at Holyrood,


but first let's look back at the week in 60 seconds.


Owners of the Grangemouth oil refinery have urged workers not to


go ahead with a planned strike, warning it could shut most of


Scotland. The Queen's Batten relay has begun


its tour of Commonwealth countries. It will return to Scotland for a 40


day tour ahead of next summer's games.


The Scottish Government is to take Prestwick airport into public


ownership after the current owners failed to find a buyer. It has been


losing £2 million a year. Sir Menzies Campbell, the former


Liberal Democrat leader says he will stand down at the next general


election. Professor peter Higgs was awarded


the Nobel Prize for physics, having been recognised for his work on the


Higgs boson particle. And I'm delighted and rather relieved it is


all over, because it has been a long time coming.


If that was the week that was, let's turn to the week ahead. With me this


week, Simon Johnson, Scottish political editor of the Daily


Telegraph, and the vice-chair of Scottish CND, Isobel Lindsay. We


were talking to Alistair Carmichael earlier. He was calling for more


ordinary people to become involved in the independence debate. Given


your involved with women for independence, is there a grassroots


campaign that perhaps politicians are missing out on? Yes, the DS site


has great strength in terms of the community, especially last Sunday


night I was at a meeting and you had 120 turning out to a yes meeting.


Throughout the country, the Yes campaign struggles with the media


but it has a lot of strength in terms of the community and activity,


and that will continue and build. Is that despite politicians goes like


I've they failing to engage people? My personal view is that a lot of


people are sick and tired of the referendum. We still have a year to


go and people outside the Holyrood bubble have been saying we are still


talking about this, in the last six weeks all these issues will come to


the poor and we will have debates and a serious look at the


proposition from each side, but the referendum campaign is so long but I


think a lot of people are sick and tired of it already. There is a


referendum story in Scotland on Sunday today, saying a former First


Minister has backed an SNP appealed to political rivals for grandees


like him and Jack McConnell to become part of the negotiating


campaign it is yes vote. You think others will follow suit? No, Henry


is going on a political journey and he has made a series of


interventions that have been helpful to nationalists. It is a bit of


mischief. You are talking about something that if you look at


opinion polls on Friday, 50% voting no, 28% yes, so you might as well as


me what kind of Lamborghini I would buy if I won the lottery, . In terms


of what might happen after a yes vote, can you understand why those


supporting the union do not want to engage? Yes, because as soon as you


get people focused on the exciting things we could do with


independence, you start getting people in gay in that very campaign,


and this is what the no side doesn't want. They want to keep people fixed


on the negative. Once you turn to the positive, it is a game for the


yes people, and I don't think we will have any difficulty think


Scottish grandees, although I hope we will be careful that ordinary


Scots also get engaged in transition processes, but if there was a yes


vote, no shortage of people prepared to get involved in creating a new


society in Scotland. But this is something the no side will not


really discuss. No, because by discussing it, and this is what


nationalists want to happen, you make it seem like there is an


inevitability about of it, it is more likely to happen than it is, so


they will not play into that agenda and will stay away from that. Let's


talk about another story, this strike next week at the Grangemouth


chemical plant, 48 hours from next Sunday. How concerned should


Scotland be about this? I gather there are enough reserves for the


strike next week in a few days, but it is concerning because the


management and workers seem at loggerheads with each other, and the


language that is being used, blackmail and things like that, you


want them to knock some heads together or get some cooler heads


and say, this is millions of pounds for the economy, which is still in


recovery, people trying to get to work across the country, you have a


responsibility to reach an agreement, and people will find it


difficult to understand that this is being considered over what seems to


be an issue regarding an individual convener in there. It seems out of


proportion to the problem, and I hope cooler heads prevail. A


difficult one for politicians because the do not want to become


involved in the dispute with they are trying to negotiate the future


of this plan. It is difficult to understand what the owners are up to


because they seem to want to have a strike. Obviously they want to


reduce their costs, they want concessions from the unions, but why


would you pick on a shop stewards convener on disciplinary action on a


comparatively minor issue, knowing this will provoke the union into


taking action? Why pick on that issue? Why not just say they want


negotiations on how they can help to make the plant more viable and get


into constructive discussion, but by persisting on that disciplinary


action, they seem to want to be provoking a strike. Next week, we


have the SNP conference. What do the SNP have to do regards


independence? Salmond had a difficult balancing act. Polls are


great for them at the moment but he needs to say we can turn this


around, get them fired up, it also needs to be speaking out to people


in the real world and try to paint a vision for them of what independent


Scotland might be, because it has been quite scatter-gun. We will


leave it there, but thank you both for coming to speak to us. That is


all from us this week. We are back at 11am next week. Goodbye, and


enjoy your Sunday.


Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr are joined by the new Scottish secretary, Alistair Carmichael, Conservative cabinet minister Ken Clarke, former Liberal Democrat cabinet minister Chris Huhne and Labour MP Diane Abbott.

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