13/10/2013 Sunday Politics Scotland

Morning, folks. Welcome to the veritable pot pourri that is this

morning's Sunday Politics Stakes. We'll have the new Scottish

Secretary, Alistair Carmichael. We'll be asking him what ease got

that his predecessor, Michael Moore hasn't.

Like a Duracell bunny, Ken Clarke just keeps going and going. He'll be

banging his drum for Europe. Free of the shackles of government,

former Energy Secretary Chris Huhne will be with us. We'll be asking him

for the inside scoop. And Diane Abbott will be joining us

too. That nasty Ed Miliband sent her packing last week. We'll find out

why. And on Sunday Politics Scotland, 25

years on from the iconic single Letter From America, we revisit the

industrial heartlands and ask, is Scottish industry still no more?

a job but failed miserably, Mick watt, Miranda Green Andijan an

Ganesh. They'll Tweet like mad as if their lives depended on it

throughout the programme. Is Ed Miliband's Labour Party moving

to the left or right? Last week, a chid owe Cabinet reshuffle was seen

a a shift to the lot of. Two have announced policy changes which could

indicate he moved back to the middle. New shadows Work and

Pensions Secretary Rachel Reeves says Labour will be tougher on the

Tories. While Tristram Hunt says Labour loves Tory-style free schools

after all. Here he is on the BBC earlier this morning.

I've one message for you and viewers. If you are a group of

parents, social entrepreneurs, teachers, interested in setting up a

school in areas where you need new school place, the Labour Government

will be on your side. That's free schools. We are in favour of

enterprise and innovation. It will schools. We are in favour of

be in areas of need. We have a school places crisis going on. It

will have properly qualified school places crisis going on. It

teachers in these schools. And thirdly, systems of financial

accountability. What is going on with the Al Madina school is because

of terrible mistakes with Michael Gove's policy.

I'm not sure if the policies have changed, the change of tone is

remarkable, both on welfare and free schools. A significant change of

tone. It was interesting the reshuffle on the Labour frontbench

last week was init wered as a purge of Blair rights. It seemed to be a

purge of anti-reform thinking. Rachel Reeves was not saying anythi

different on substance but saying Labour will be tough than the Tories

on welfare. You've seen that clip from Tristram, free schools will be

allowed to be set up in areas of need. Greater oversight. But a

completely different change of tone, we are on the side of parents and

social entrepreneurs who want to set these up. A different change. Why

are they doing this? On education, so far the debate has been

polarised. You've had the Michael Gove uber reformers in the

department. This weekend, we've had leaked memos from one of Michael

Gove's advisers which are extreme views about the state of education.

And on the other side teaching unions. It hasn't led to a healthy

debate which represents what parents want out of schools or employers.

This is a huge move from the Labour Party to sound more reasonable. They

have been silent on education which is a huge policy area on the left.

Is this a focus group-driven change? They've seen the polls. Welfare

reforms are hugery popular and free schools for those who have them? You

only apiece the focus groups by changing the policy substantially. I

always thought a test for this Labour reshuffle was not whether Ed

Miliband would promote Blair rights, it is clear he did, it is whether

they would be allowed to be Blair rights. When Stephen Twigg carried

the education portfolio it was clear his own views were closer to the

Government than he was allowed to let on. He was constrained. There is

no point of giving Tristram Hunt this job if he is not allowed to say

what he thinks. I wouldn't mind betting privately he thinks free

schools should be available beyond just areas of need. He hasn't yet

defined need. It could be, we've run out of places or the existing

schools are so bad we need schools. If that is it, it is the same Asics

itsing Government policy. In they are in schools rated as

unsatisfactory that's no different. He wanted to say he was in favour of

higher educational standards and rigour, he had to tell the audience

he has a Cambridge PhD to attack Michael Gove. That was difficult for

Tristram Hunt he had to mention that. Is that worth something, a PhD

from Cambridge? Obviously to him it is. He said they would demand proper

teaching qualifications. That could count him out. He does some

teaching? Independent schools do not have to have teachers with formal

teaching qualifications. I've never been to one? What about you? That

decision by Michael Gove to allow free schools to employ nonunionised

and non-trained people, so he has to say that.

Watch this space. The dust settled after the party resufficients. Do

the Tories look a bit more like Britain. Do the Tories look more

like Labour? Here's guiles. #4 With reshuffles, you're never

really certain. There's whispers, rumours, guesses. But the only way

to know it is underway is keeping beady eyes on a front door. Up until

now, the only way we knew who was in and who was out was who came walking

down this bit of Downing Street with a smile on their face after going to

see the boss. The once who are to be sacked, they usually go round the

back. Not this time. No, something new alerted us all. The-PM started

it. It was an extraordinary day. I can't remember a triple decker

reshuffle where you've three parties changing ministerial teams at the

same time. The fact is that resufficient happened on Twitter.

Not that the press stopped watching the door as well. News was a bit

slow in coming until Alastair Charmichael replaced Michael Moore,

the first to be pounced on. I'm disappointed to be leaving office

now but pleased at what I've been able to achieve in the last couple

of years. Not as pleased as one imagines as the man receiving the

welcome that went on, and on and on... And on... And on!

#4 The welcomer, who was simultaneously having Jeremy Browne,

in a sense seen off the premises of the Home Office in conspiracy to let

Norman Baker sing a tune. the Home Office in conspiracy to let

# Blowing hi Jude through a traffic cone... # #.

The brutality of the Liberal Democrats. We tend to think they are

herbivorous. Sacking a Cabinet Minister, another minister, Jeremy

Browne. By lunch time, the Tory ranks were shifting too. The PM keen

to boost the numbers of telegenic women walking into Government and

turning perceptions around. He tipped a so-called flatcap to men

from the north or more humble backgrounds with room for some which

fitted neither label but are friends of George Osborne. And, all the

while, those new Tory ministers were learning of Labour's changes. Labour

too knows the value of new young blood striding into the limelight.

Again some with TV experience of that. Tristram Hunt and Gloria de

peer row would be hard to describe as hard left. But Blairbrushing the

past out of the picture seemed to be the name of the day. Liam Byrne

moved from higher profile roles. With Diane Abbott also gone, was

this really a Blair right cull? It depends what you mean. Blair right

used to mean someone who wanted Tony depends what you mean. Blair right

Blair to be leader of the Labour Party. Somebody who worked closely

with him. Now it means sometimes people who believe in a certain set

of ideologyies or ideas. There are still very much those kind of Blair

rights within the party. But we are seeing the group around Tony Blair

are not long assassin flew enjoys as they once were. By evening, it was

over. New bees were sharing the spoils of winner while ousted

ministers quietly thanked commits raters. Or -- commiserators. Or one

angry ex-wife bemoaned their dismissal.

Disappointment in politics is disified. How much much someone

standing here might want it to be the case, you are unlikely to get

someone coming out of that do going "how could." And running off crying!

And the brand, spanking new Scottish Secretary Alastair Charmichael joins

us from Orkney on a line that hasn't been used since the fleet was used

in the outbreak of World War I! I wasn't around at the time. I'm

hearing you loud and clear. Why have you agreed to run a department? That

you wanted to abolish six years ago? Hello? Maybe our connections are not

so great after all. Alastair Charmichael. Can you hear me? I can

hear you now. There was a nasty second there where you disappeared.

Let me try the question again. Why have you agreed to run a department

you wanted to abolish six years ago? Because this is the, probably one of

the most important jobs in British politics at the moment. To ensure

that Scotland remains part of the UK. Even when I was talking about

the reconfiguration of rep sen Taigs of Scotland -- representation of

Scotland within Whitehall, there was always a job to be done. That is

true in spades now. I will focus on making sure the UK Government has a

real voice in that debate. What have you that Michael Moore didn't have?

Look, I think Michael Moore did an excellent job. The work he did

delivering the Edinburgh agreement to ensure we got a proper, fair,

clear legal and decisive referendum, the work delivering extra powers to

the Scottish Parliament was a substantial piece of work. I'm not

comparing myself to Michael. He's a friend of mine. I will say that as

we go forward into this, this is now about the actual debate itself. I

will be putting the case, with some passion, I hope, for Scotland to

remain part of the UK. This isn't just some abstract debate about

nationhood, sovereignty, this is a real debate about people's jobs,

their livelihoods, the cost of their mortgage. That and an awful lot

more. For that, I relish the challenge. I understand that. But if

you're being put in there to save the union, every pole has the no --

poll has the no campaign margin alley ahead. Mr Moore was doing

pretty well to save the union. I suspect you've been given the job to

save the Liberal Democrats in Scotland? And lieu, you misread the

situation if you -- Andrew, you misread the situation new think

anybody is going to be the person who will save the union. The people

who will save the union are the people of Scotland if they turn out

next year and vote to save the union. We have to put the case for

that. That is what I will be doing. Look at the position of your own

party. You came fourth in the last Scottish parentry elections. You

party. You came fourth in the last were even behind the Conservatives.

The latest poll has you still in fourth. Are you there because you're

a bruiser and you will pep up the Liberal Democrats opportunity in

Scotland. If I had a pound for everybody to referred to me as being

Scotland. If I had a pound for a bruiser, I wouldn't need to be

sitting here this morning. I could have retired by now. The truth of

this, if I can address it once and for all, I have done probably one of

the most complex and subtle jobs in British politics for the last

three-and-a-half years, Liberal Democrat Chief Whip in a Coalition

Government. I would not have survived in that job a week, let

alone three-and-a-half years, if I was the sort of person who went

around picking unnecessary fights. So, can we just please forget about

this business about being a bruiser. As far as the position of the party

in the polls, this is true also of the referendum vote, opinion polls

in the polls, this is true also of are a snapshot. They are not a

prediction of what will happen in the future. I will be out there

putting the case. Neither the next election nor the referendum is one

or lost yet. One of the things I really want to be guarding against

is the complacency which says because we are a good margin ahead

today, 12 months out from the actual polling day, that it is in the bag.

today, 12 months out from the actual Believe me, Andrew, it is not. As

you know, wasn't for the Liberal Democrats. Not just talking about

the polls. You came fourth in the real poll in the Scottish

Parliamentary elections. You said you were happy to facial

ex-Salmond in a TV debade. Should David Cameron face him? I am happy

ex-Salmond in a TV debade. Should to face anybody who wants to

debate. Should David Cameron face him? No, because that allows Alex

Salmond and the Scottish Nationalists to portray this as some

sort of contest or choice between a vision of Scottish social democracy

and English conservativism, which it is not. This is a debate that has to

be held in Scotland about the future of Scotland amongst Scots. David

Cameron has a very important part in Scotland's public life, but he is

not Scottish and I think he will accept Commies edit himself in fact,

the person who should be debating with Alex Salmond is Alistair

Darling. He has got a Scottish name and his family hails from the

wealthiest of Scotland at some stage in the past. Anyway, you described

the campaign to keep the union together as lacking passion, were

you referring to the campaign or Alistair Darling? I was not

referring to Alistair Darling. I think what I was saying is that as

we move into this new stage, and Alistair Darling said it himself, we

are now campaigning for people 's hearts because if you look at the

range of papers the Government has published, it is pretty clear the

arguments lie in relation to the head. I am not giving up the battle

for the hearts and Scotland because there is a good strong case, as

somebody who is proud to be Scottish and to be British, for Scotland to

remain part of the UK. You come from an island that has eight

distilleries and I understand you haven't even had a single

celebratory drink for your new post. Not a drop has touched my lips. Not

supporting local business! I will be making up for lost time on the 1st

of November, I will be doing it in aid of Macmillan Cancer care and if

anybody wants to go to their website, they can donate. It is

worthwhile. I cannot think of a better cause. One Cabinet minister

who many thought might get Reef -- we shuffled but didn't is Ken

Clarke. Welcome to Sunday Politics. This reshuffle was about new blood,

more women and more ethnic minorities, where did you fit in? I

would describe myself as the elder statesman, to be polite, but it is

difficult to replace them. I enjoy it. It is a great privilege to have

a role in Cabinet and I will carry on as long as David wants me to do.

I have seen many reshuffles, they are dreadful and I seem to have

survived them so far. Did David Cameron talk to you before this

reshuffle? No, he didn't. I would have had expected a phone call,

asking, how do you think about stepping down, but he didn't and my

role is one of giving my wit and wisdom to the Cabinet and meetings

of the Security Council so he has got to put up with me a bit longer.

You said you are going to stand again at the next election, why do

you keep going? What do you hope to achieve in politics? I am mostly a

political anorak, I have been since I was very small, by the process of

politics but the older I get I get more concerned about the good

governance of the country and at the moment the combination of problems

is quite appalling. The difficulty of tackling the modern world is very

difficult and I find it fascinating. The old argument that attracts every

decent person into politics, you might be able sometimes to make a

bit of difference, and I try to do that. I try not to hark back on my

experience but we will have a lot of tough problems which I think the

Conservative Government will have to tackle. You opposed referenda on

Maastricht, the Lisbon Treaty, you were even against one on Britain

adopting the euro. It must follow that you are against the referenda

on Britain's membership to the EU? I am always for holding people

accountable to the long-term and medium term consequences of

decisions they take as representatives, but this is a

generational thing. I am in a minority now and my colleagues have

firmly decided a referendum needs to be held to settle the question of

Britain's relationship with the European Union which I think is one

of the most important things in politics. It will determine

Britain's place in the modern world and determine whether our

politicians are able to look after the living standards, the economy,

the safety against terrorism. Last the living standards, the economy,

summer you said that only extreme nationalists wanted a silly EU

referendum. It follows your party must be full of extremely silly

nationalists. The people who are desperate to have a referendum are

all the people who actually want to leave the European Union. The

referendum will involve the public and people like me have got to get

across to the public, don't just feel angry about the last thing you

read in the newspaper about what the commission is or is not doing, do

bear in mind this is our base in the modern world. We happen to be a

leading member, almost as valuable and rich as the Americans, from

there we can have a greater influence in events. That is not

just how the politicians get on the world stage, it is how the

politicians look after us when we face danger from terrorism is

spilling over from the Middle East, or we face public services being

threatened. You didn't even turn up to vote for the bill which will give

us a referendum. I had other engagements on the Friday concerned.

It seemed to get through without my participation. You didn't want to be

seen voting for something your heart is not in. Let's be honest here.

Look, many of your colleagues I have interviewed say that if the choice

was between the state -- the status quo with the European Union and

leaving, they would leave. The truth is that you would vote to stay in

even on the status quo, wouldn't you? I haven't spent so long

supporting the EU to leave now if I got chance. I think our economy is

much stronger than it would have been if we were outside the EU. We

have continued attracting investment, as in Washington last

week. We are trying to roll forward the prospect of free trade and I

have to reassure Americans that we are not likely to leave the EU to

make sure they will invest here. That is true but it also needs

reform. The cry for reform, which is echoed in other countries,

particularly Germany, is a good one. Even if David Cameron came back with

nothing from Brussels, you would still vote to stay in, correct?

Going off to be a small economy, and one which is dwindling in comparison

with others, in the modern world it would be dangerous. I also think the

dangers of the Middle East and the dangers of some of the countries

between EU and Russia are considerable, we shouldn't

disengage. I will take that as a yes. I do think reform can

strengthen the case, and of some members of the public don't agree

with me, I trust they will be persuaded when David delivers his

reforms. The latest poll gives Labour a ten point lead over the

Tories and the reason why it has a ten point lead is because UKIP are

up there with 18% of the vote and ten point lead is because UKIP are

the Tory vote has slumped in the Paul to 27%. How would you see off

UKIP? By saying you need a strong Paul to 27%. How would you see off

and effective Government. We faced terrible problems. Every Government

I have been in has been behind in the polls. This Government is not as

popular as the previous Government I have served in under the three

previous prime ministers. When you get an election, people have to ask

themselves who do we want to decide the issues of war and peace in this

country? Who do we want to get us out of our economic problems. I

don't think Ed Miliband is up to it. That generalised stuff will not see

off UKIP. People will not listen to that. When people answer an opinion

poll, they tell you how annoyed they are by something that has recently

upset them, but people are more sensible than this. Every Government

I have served in has been behind in the polls. At a general election you

have to mobilise the public to start thinking, who do we want to govern

us? They did take over a calamitous situation, and there are very

important problems to be decided going forward. UKIP represents

anti-immigration, anti-foreigners, anti-Europe, anti-politics but I

don't think it will get 18% of the opinion -- the polls in any

election. Thank you. Once upon a time, a

politician whose career ended in disgrace might choose to lie low for

a while, perhaps to spend a bit more time tending the tulips and doing

the odd bit of charity work. Not Chris Huhne. He walked free from

prison only five months ago but the former Energy Secretary is already

back in the public eye - a column in the Guardian, a job with a renewable

energy firm, even the odd TV interview. So is he working on a

political rehabilitation? Chris Huhne, welcome to the Sunday

Politics. The answer to that is clearly know, and thank you for

inviting me back. You have set your career in politics is over so what

does the future hold for you? I am happy doing what I am doing, I am

passionate about green energy and climate change, so I am doing things

on that front in terms of business and work for think tanks and

non-governmental organisations, and I am doing a column for the Guardian

on Mondays. You obviously get a lot of material from the Sunday Politics

to write about. Have you embarked on political rehabilitation? It was

clear from the point of view of the George when I was sentenced, he

said, this is not about rehabilitating you, because I had

not offended for ten years, it was actually about stopping people like

not offended for ten years, it was you, Andrew, Ron doing the same

thing. It was a deterrent effect for the public. That is I think why the

prosecution was brought. I had not offended for ten years on this,

either in terms of speeding points... But you are out to

rehabilitate yourself in the public? I have been a journalist,

rehabilitate yourself in the public? coalition to the bitter end? Or

should they re-establish their own identity? My view is that the

Coalition agreement is for the whole Parliament, and the Lib Dems are

going to stay, and should stay. What would be a good result for the Lib

Dems in 2015? The loss of ten, 15 seats? I think it will be an

interesting election because I think you will have essentially three

party leaders, all of whom are unpopular. It is almost

unprecedented that they have negative ratings so it will be a

battle between the walking wounded. In those circumstances, in my view,

the Lib Dems can come out very well. But you will lose seats, won't

you? It is far too early to say. If the Liberal Democrats do badly in

next year's European elections, you could come fourth on fifth behind

the Greens. Will Nick Clegg's leadership be in jeopardy? I've been

in countless cycles where we've had very low poll ratings. The normal

pickup to the subsequent general election on average has been 10

percentage points. So he's not in jeopardy? I think Nick will be there

at the next general election. I think he'll lead the party into the

next general election. I expect we'll do much better than most

people think. If we are heading for another hung Parliament, which is

what the Liberal Democrats want. Let's be honest, you'd rather be in

coalition with the Labour Party than have a repeat of the Conservatives?

One of the key things I sawed to colleagues, whatever your personal

preference, I used to be a Labour Party member, you can derive from

that I'm on the left of centre of the party. I always said to my

colleagues in the party, it is absolutely crucial to remember that

colleagues in the party, it is the we are in politics because we

are Liberal Democrats, not because we are either Conservatives or

second best Labour. If you don't take that view, you don't have any

bargaining position when it You said you are keeping up your

interest in energy matters. Is Ed Miliband right to promise a

temporary price freeze with Mike we have posturing on energy prices. It

is not essential policy. It was tried in California in 2001, one of

the factors which led to blackout. We have the Prime Minister promising

we should shift everyone onto the lowest possible tariff which would

mean all the big six on one tariff, so we are getting populist

claptrap. So you are against the price freeze? It is a bad idea when

we are trying to encourage investment and when the market can

give us some of the lowest gas and liquidity prices in Europe. Britain

has some of the lowest. The other European prices are only higher

because they put more taxes on it. Base prices are among the highest in

Europe. If you look at new comparisons in terms of what goes

out to households, the reality... That is after taxes. Conservatives

claim there are taxes being put on our energy. You are one of the

people responsible for long ring us with these taxes which are adding

over £100 to the average build. Why don't you cut some of these taxes

and make it cheaper? That is nonsense and that is coming from

people like George Osborne who should know better, because one

hypocrisy of this is that the one person in the government who has

added green taxes was George Osborne with that carbon price floor. We put

it into the coalition agreement because the Conservatives wanted it.

The Lib Dems did not want it, we do not needed to drive

decarbonisation, it was a revenue raising measure by the Tories and it

set of a load of hair is about green taxes which are now coming home to

roost. You are a big supporter of Leveson style press regulation, so

will you stop writing for the Guardian if it refuses to sign up to

the charter? I think that is neither here nor there. The Guardian is a

great platform. If it doesn't sign up to what you believe in, will you

stop supporting it? I am sure they will let me make that point. I think

newspapers will sign up to it because they have a collapse in

public trust and confidence unparalleled for every other

business. They need a third-party endorsement to say they have cleaned

up their act and the going to get trust back, and they will. When they

haven't signed up, you can come back and talk about it. You are watching

Sunday Politics. Good morning, and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

Coming up on the programme: More from the new Secretary of State for

Scotland and the challenges facing him over the next year.

And is this just a nostalgic anthem from the '80s? Or 25 years on, has

there been such a dramatic change in Scotland's industrial landscape?

Alistair Carmichael is the UK government's new man in Scotland, or

Scotland's new man in the UK Government, depending on your

viewpoint. As he gets to grips with the job, Mr Carmichael will be

assessing the challenges ahead. So what are they? Andrew Kerr reports.

The office of Secretary of State for Scotland doesn't often make it into

the new key news, let alone comedy shows. There was another man

promoted in this reshuffle, Alistair Carmichael who is now Secretary of

State for Scotland, and I would remember his name, anyone who

watches pointless, because in 18 months he will be an answer.

Alistair Carmichael has been passed over twice that now he has the job,

he is Chief Whip, in that position he would not be known to the public,

that is behind-the-scenes and any Chief Whip would find that, but now

he will be in the spotlight and be interested to see what he does.

Third time lucky perhaps, a Secretary of State who can last the

course. After moving on from Nick Clegg, he is getting to grips with

his office and the challenges he faces, especially how the referendum

debate is directed. I think his main challenge in the next 12 months is

to argue the case for the union from a perhaps more colourful or in a

more colourful way than it has been argued so far. I think Carmichael

will need to bring into the argument for the union in Scotland the other

parts of the UK. At the Royal heart of the UK, the Scottish secretary

had his first front row engagement at Buckingham Palace this week for

the Batten relay. In the referendum race, he is running side-by-side

with Labour and Tory colleagues and will have to form close relations

with key figures in Better Together. He will also have to manage

perceptions of visiting UK ministers. He has clearly clocked

what the problem is, which is having ministers like Philip Hammond

appearing to give lectures to Scots on how they should run their

affairs, but saying he. These lecture tours is one thing. Delivery

is another, and I don't think he will be able to stop George Osborne

giving Scots lectures on whether they can use the pound after

independence. Perhaps that is a mountain to climb of though that

brings its own problems. Challenge three, how to reconcile long-held

political views in the context of the referendum debate. Liberal

Democrats have been Federalists for a long time. They have argued that

the constitution needs to move on and more powers should be given to

Scotland, so it will be interesting to see what role he plays in the

debate. Well he pushes Tory colleagues at Westminster to come up

with a scheme to make some kind of concrete alternative to

independence, so I think he may be caught between a rock and a hard

place between David Cameron and Alex Salmond. There are plenty of issues

for Mr Carmichael to grapple with. He has a year to get them right. If

he doesn't, he could be out of a job. In our Orkney studio is the man

himself. Good afternoon. You talked earlier about putting passion in the

debate. At the Scottish office been too conciliatory with the SNP and

the Scottish Government? We have a day-to-day job to do in terms of

managing Scotland's reputation in Whitehall and Westminster, so in

that you have to be considered very, but in the wider little debate, we

are entering a new phase. We are now in the countdown to the day which

matters and I think all parties need to put more spark and passion into

this debate, but let me be clear. This is not just about politicians,

because politicians are alone cannot run this debating. We need to hear

from teachers, nurses, doctors, lawyers, from business people, from

people looking to start up their own business, the widest possible range

of people in Scotland have got to find a voice in this debating which

I don't think we have had yet. When that happens you will see more

colour coming into the debate. Why do you think they have not been

taking part in the debate? Has been bogged down in political

technicalities? I think the debate has been ridiculously prolonged. I

feel as if this is already gone on my entire adult life and we still

have 12 months until we get to the polling booth. I would not have

foreseen the need for a campaign of this length. That was Alex

Salmond's choice, not ours. I don't know that politicians necessarily

can do with an their own, but need to bring in a wider range of people

and I really want the widest possible range. I had a lunch with

businessmen in Edinburgh who all told me they had real concerns about

what could happen if we did vote yes. I think they need to stop

telling me that and start telling the rest of the country. Why hasn't

that happened? I think it will happen now as mines concentrate

closer to the day. If there is a yes vote, you follow on from what

Michael Morris said, that that would be your moment to start negotiating

for Scotland? I fight for Scotland every day, and I have done. What

would be your position after a yes vote? I would take the same

position. I see no real need to move from that, but that is a hypothesis

on top of a supposition. What we need to be doing is instead of

coming up with a fantasy structure about how we would negotiate after a

yes vote, we ought to be getting in there, having the debate, explaining

the issues about jobs, mortgages, the role we can have in the rest of

the world, rather than obsessing with things that might interest

journalists and politicians but are not what concern the public. Some of

those issues were raised by your Cabinet colleagues when they came

north recently. Which of them have been arrogant in the way they

delivered their message? Less top put words in my mouth. I never said

anyone had been arrogant when they came north. You accept that, surely.

Sorry, I've just lost any sound. Can you still hear me? I can hear you

again. Can I just explain this question about arrogance. What I was

talking about when I said we shouldn't all we see coming to

Scotland as a lecture tour is that a great deal is happening in Scotland

from which they can learn, and one very small example, the reader may

was talking this week about the National crime agency -- Theresa

May. Opportunities to tackle organised crime across the UK is an

important argument in this referendum, but she also said this

is something that could be used to tackle gang violence. I said to her

that is great, there is a great story about what Strathclyde Police

were doing in Glasgow in tackling gang violence, so please come up,

hear what they are doing and be ready to take it away and

implemented or to borrow on our experience. We are all still part of

the UK, and she said she knew about that work, and she had had

Strathclyde Police don't, but there was a chance for her to come to

Scotland in future. Has Whitehall got it wrong when it

talks about things like fast lane still being part of the geographical

rest of the UK if Scotland voted yes? I think perhaps we occasionally

have opened up an opportunity of ourselves or our opponents, rather,

to portray us in a negative light. But I think if you look across the

piece, five or six papers, there has been a substantial well referenced

pieces of work and I think that actually you can contrast that very

well with the approach that is being taken to the campaign by the yes

campaign which has been simple -- simply to assert things left, right

and centre. I go back to my time working as a lawyer. It is the

moment that every lawyer dreads which is when the sheriff pulls the

glasses down over his nose and says, what is your authority for that

proposition Mr Carmichael? The SNP, when they are asserting a position,

have got no authority. They say similar things about the papers that

Westminster producers. The White Paper is coming out. It is therefore

people to judge for themselves. He talked earlier in your interview...

You talked about your previous job as chief whip being complex and

subtle. What sort of subtleties will you bring to the White Paper when it

comes out from the Scottish Government as that will be a big bit

of work? I am losing a feed so did not quite the question. In terms of

the White Paper, it remains to be seen what is in it, I hope it is

more substantial than everything we have seen from the campaign so far

but I am not holding good faith. I get the feeling that as we enter the

next 12 months in terms of this being a battle between the arguments

of the head and of the heart, in terms of the arguments of the head,

then we are in a dominant position. Will there be a united front from

your party and your Better Together partners on what happens if there is

your party and your Better Together a no vote? I hope there will be a

united front in as much as we will all recognise that the clear will of

the Scottish people, that there should be extra powers... Will you

be bringing them together to get a united position? That is an

important part of it and also I would like to see the SNP as part of

that, because they have an important voice, an important role to play. If

you look back over the recent history, the SNP have always said on

the Constitutional Convention, we don't want to be part of that, we

are only interested in independence. On the commission that delivered

substantial extra powers to the parliament, they said exactly the

same sort of thing again. This time, once we have settled the

independence question, there will be no other way for the SNP to go. They

will have to be part... In regards to people you are working with... I

just want to ask, we are running out of time. Liberal home rule, I think

there will be a healthy influence and I welcome their participation.

Will there be a united position from the parties in Better Together ahead

of the referendum? You have to ask the other parties as well as the

might -- as well as myself. You will have a united position in as much as

there will be a wish to see extra powers, I do believe that. I don't

believe that you can -- don't think you can expect a specification of

what is powers will be. That is a process we will have to go through

once we have settled the independence question. Thank you for

joining us and thank you for bearing with us over the technical glitches.

Thank you. Last night, the Proclaimers played

Glasgow landmark 25 years since they broke through with Letter From

America. Is linked the Highland Clearances with the industrial

shutdown of the Thatcher era. We looked at the towns that are

supposed to be no more. We are still singing passionately

about industrial devastation in a song inspired by Tessa at Highland

has been cleared off their land. It was the painting that I thought

about. It was the contrast with that, obviously with the Clearances

of the 19th century and what was happening in the late 70s and 80s.

That is where it came from. Those -- it could have been many towns. It

could have been Kilmarnock come that. Those towns either had very

heavy job losses suddenly or unemployment blackspot and work

exploiting a lot of people. Those four sounded better going together

than others. That was 25 years ago. What has happened since? What does

it tell us about the Scottish economy? Figure two. -- let's take a

tour. Bathgate. I went to the site of a

plant where thousands of workers made trucks and tractors to hear

from locals. We knew what was going to happen. As closing the same

time. It was devastating. In fact, the unemployment rate went up to

about 25% in some areas. I dismember a civil servant at that time saying

to me, Mr Swan, -- I remember a civil servant. I can set up an

infrastructure that will allow us to civil servant. I can set up an

get more work back in full and will employ your sons and daughters. That

is what happened. But it took us 15 years to balance the economy out

again. The actual jobs came here, most left again. The rail line to

Edinburgh reopened. I think that may have made a big difference,

certainly after the factory closing, the link was established in

1986 to Edinburgh. Many of the people use Bathgate as a commuter

town, like the suburbs of London, people live here and it is more

affordable housing and Glasgow or Edinburgh. Not far from here, is

Broxburn. The meat... So biggest closure that we have seen. All of

the interesting factors is that the workforce were from Poland and

Lithuania and Estonia. In ways that few could have foreseen before the

Iron Curtain came down, that helps ensure that the tide of immigration

out of Scotland has been turned. What about the Linwood? It is home

to a car factory, birthplace of the humble Imp. On that site, the

Phoenix business Park, risen from the ashes and tells us a lot about

the modern economy. Where they made cars, there are now 18 dealerships.

My father worked here. Of course, the Proclaimers song when they sung

Linwood no more, it's resonated with me. That was a tragic time all of

the families around here. I saw my father go downhill in a year, he was

unemployed. I saw him aged ten or 15 years. I always felt I wanted to

have my own business so I could in some way be of control -- in control

of my destiny and so I could look at a team of people and make sure they

don't have to go through this. On this site, there are probably 4000

that worked here at the time. I think I should write to the

Proclaimers and tell them there is a Linwood. Where next? Used to five.

This is where they used to ship coal from Fife and then they built

jackets for North Sea platforms until this yard went silent. Then

came a second wind from North Sea oil and gas and a new wave of

renewable energy. So, methyl no more, far from it. This looks like a

next big thing in the Scottish economy. This was a successful you

are operated by many different companies. The yard was lying empty

for about seven years. Since then, with renewables and oil and gas, we

have generated employment for around 800 people with potential to

increase. This is 12,000 tonnes of oil platform bound for deep water,

there are apprentices being taken on, but the welding skills, they had

to hire from Poland. A test turbine is being put in by Samsung which

hopes to build more of them. Renewables are very important. We

will probably be Europe's leader in terms of manufacture of jackets for

offshore wind, we have an ambition to build new factories here and have

the capacity to build 150 jackets a year. What is delaying things?

Scottish independence, uncertainty, approval with EEM R and a clear

understanding of what is going to happen with renewables in the

future. Irvin in Ayrshire was the final town that was supposed to be

no more and it was a new town, it was not so much bigger dishes

clearing out, it was its young people who relax jobs. One went off

to Glasgow to study law. She was back recently to campaign for

independence. Irvin was the big metropolis, it was where you went on

a Saturday night. Went to the leisure centre which when I was

growing up was the first of its kind in Scotland. At the time of the

Proclaimers song, I was about 18. So when they were singing about your

town being no more, did that ring true to you? In a way. I had already

joined the SNP by then and the Proclaimers delivered this anthem

for the age. Unemployment was high and one of the things I strongly

from being at school was this fear of unemployment, because as I

remember it back then, unemployment was something that was terminal. If

you did not get a job or you lost a job, or it felt as if there could be

no hope of getting another one. How do you feel about opportunities now?

I think there are opportunities in Irvin. The council are working hard

to make sure that there are economic it -- opportunities here. There is a

big Pharma company. Epic life sciences -- a big life sciences

presents. For someone like my nephew, he is interested in

sciences, there are opportunities. The town centre regeneration fits

into this journey through Scotland and the time. What I have found is

an economy and people who have shown flexibility and resilience. We are

more skilled and more resourceful. Government made a difference through

building infrastructure for new ones. People have become more mobile

around the country and between countries. I think the song has

aged, there is no doubt about that. The world is different. Scotland

aged, there is no doubt about that. thankfully is a better place. I

think it feels more modern, it feels like it attitudes have moved on in

terms of things. But in terms of people being able to get work, I

wonder how much difference there is. My kids now, leaving school, trying

to get full-time work is very difficult.

Dreamy today is the economic commentator Alf Young and the

Economist Ailsa McKay from Glasgow can and university. Alf Young,

unemployment whited those areas but when we see the regeneration, the

change in the workforce, could it be argued as some said that

unemployment was a price worth paying? I think it took a very long

time to pay that price and a lot of people never really recovered from

it. I noted that Harry Burns, the senior medical figure in Scotland,

was saying that loss of industry, that loss of reason for being is a

major factor. Other problems that Scotland still try and combat in

terms of physical and mental health and the rest of it, but clearly a

lot of these places found a new future, there is no doubt about

that. But it took time. It took other hiccups along the way,

Bathgate had the car plant, it lost that. It then had bowed to roll up

making mobile phones, it lost that. There was a big silicon chip flat --

chip plant, it is now a distribution centre for Tesco. What has come out

of it all is not making so many things, but being a service economy.

Being dependent on what other people make and what they will sell at

that. We have not been that good, I think at regenerating the kind of

large-scale jobs -- job opportunities that would employ a

lot of people out with service call centres and that kind of thing. How

important are those large scale industries for a community's

self-worth? These big factories would be the heart of these

communities. We are now hearing that Bathgate is a commuter town.

Absolutely, I think your piece referred to the resilience of

families and local communities. Don't know about the changing face

of industry, but the changing face of the entertainment industry, I was

fortunate enough to see the Proclaimers last night and the

message when they played Letter From America was just as poignant as 25

years ago as we are still living with the consequences. The

consequences are dire. Because of the changing face of the public

sector versus the private sector and the lack of investment in the public

sector means that these families that did pick up the pieces when

women went out to work can no longer use that Avenue, women cannot find

work in the public sector any more in these areas. How much were these

changes are about political ideology and how much were they about changes

in the goods and services people wanted? A lot of it was about a

government that the side of that investing in all those old

industries like shipbuilding was no longer a price worth paying, so they

tried to restructure. The other thing we lost, and one of the things

I remember with great affection was a time when women in Greenock took

over a jean factory in the early 1980s, and Helen Monaghan and her

friends took over the factory and fought for their jobs, and there was

a kind of resilience about ordinary working people and what they thought

their claim to a role in society was, that seems to me to have

disappeared. I suppose there is also that issued that we focused on these

areas that have regenerated but other areas are still struggling,

parts of air sure that have not recovered from the collapse of

mining. Yes, your peace was quite optimistic, but Alf is right, one

thing we need to think about is the role of the public sector and the

ideology that forms thinking about its role, and it is not the enemy of

economic growth. At the concert last night, I felt like 25 years ago the

ideology reforming our economic policy is the same as the idea that

form economic policy them. It is not just about global conditions but

ideology in the free market of the public sector is the enemy of the

economy. We need to move beyond that thinking and that is the challenge

for the government, to talk about ideologies and frame the big picture

for Scotland. How much has the workforce change? We now see

immigration into Scotland that maybe we didn't 25 years ago, especially

with Polish workers and other communities coming here, so the

workforce is dynamic. It is, but it is also atomised, especially for

young people with no degree or great skills, finding meaningful work is

difficult. There are great ambiguities about where we are and I

suppose it is ambiguities that release back to that which in

Douglas's the long, that Nicholl painted, because the man on that

note, you don't know whether he is regretting what he is leaving behind

in the clearances or where he is going or what he is doing next, and

I think we are still with that ambiguity about what the future

holds, especially for the next generation. I think uncertainty was

mentioned in your peace, and there is uncertainty for young women.

Modern apprenticeships are creating jobs but the jobs for young men.

Young women are losing jobs and middle-aged women are losing jobs

that will never come back because the public sector has been

decimated, and that is what a lot of families in the 1980s relied on and

can no longer rely on now. Thank you both very much. You're watching

Sunday Politics Scotland from the BBC.

Still to come: a look at the week ahead with Simon Johnson from The

Daily Telegraph and veteran political campaigner Isobel Lindsay.

But first, let's cross to Andrew Kerr for the latest news from

Reporting Scotland. A murder investigation is under way

after a fire in a Stirling hair dressing salon. 46-year-old Ahdieh

Yazdanparast died in hospital late last night, following the blaze at

Venus Hair and Beauty. A man was also seriously injured in the fire,

which started in the cellar. Police say they're not looking for anyone

else in connection with the incident.

20 charities and poverty campaigners are joining together to raise

awareness about deprivation. It's estimated 200,000 children are

living below the bread line, with many going hungry. The organisation

Children in Scotland claims the situation is getting worse. These

problems have been with us for decades and we really need some

political will, but well at every level. Charities like mine,

organisations that if they say they care for children, then we have to

think about what more we can do to invest in those areas and those

families, and that might be at a cost to others, but I think now is

the time when we have to realise we cannot go on.

A valuable bronze artwork by Henry Moore has been stolen from an open

air sculpture park in Dumfries and Galloway. Standing Figure was

created in 1950, one of four Moore pieces at the sculpture park by the

Glenkiln Reservoir near Shawhead. Police say it's worth a high value

and are appealing for witnesses. Let's look at the weather. Settled

as we head into Sunday afternoon, but a clearly look for many with

this big band of cloud across other in Scotland, lovely sunshine through

premature and the West Highlands, and that is how it will stay this

afternoon. Cloud in the East producing rain towards the

south-east, especially extending up towards Aberdeenshire later. Cool

under that cloud, breezy for the south-east, lighter winds in the

West and no reason why we shouldn't see 12 or 13 for the North West

Highlands. By next update is at 6:10pm. Soon, we will discuss the

Highlands. By next update is at big events coming up at Holyrood,

but first let's look back at the week in 60 seconds.

Owners of the Grangemouth oil refinery have urged workers not to

go ahead with a planned strike, warning it could shut most of

Scotland. The Queen's Batten relay has begun

its tour of Commonwealth countries. It will return to Scotland for a 40

day tour ahead of next summer's games.

The Scottish Government is to take Prestwick airport into public

ownership after the current owners failed to find a buyer. It has been

losing £2 million a year. Sir Menzies Campbell, the former

Liberal Democrat leader says he will stand down at the next general

election. Professor peter Higgs was awarded

the Nobel Prize for physics, having been recognised for his work on the

Higgs boson particle. And I'm delighted and rather relieved it is

all over, because it has been a long time coming.

If that was the week that was, let's turn to the week ahead. With me this

week, Simon Johnson, Scottish political editor of the Daily

Telegraph, and the vice-chair of Scottish CND, Isobel Lindsay. We

were talking to Alistair Carmichael earlier. He was calling for more

ordinary people to become involved in the independence debate. Given

your involved with women for independence, is there a grassroots

campaign that perhaps politicians are missing out on? Yes, the DS site

has great strength in terms of the community, especially last Sunday

night I was at a meeting and you had 120 turning out to a yes meeting.

Throughout the country, the Yes campaign struggles with the media

but it has a lot of strength in terms of the community and activity,

and that will continue and build. Is that despite politicians goes like

I've they failing to engage people? My personal view is that a lot of

people are sick and tired of the referendum. We still have a year to

go and people outside the Holyrood bubble have been saying we are still

talking about this, in the last six weeks all these issues will come to

the poor and we will have debates and a serious look at the

proposition from each side, but the referendum campaign is so long but I

think a lot of people are sick and tired of it already. There is a

referendum story in Scotland on Sunday today, saying a former First

Minister has backed an SNP appealed to political rivals for grandees

like him and Jack McConnell to become part of the negotiating

campaign it is yes vote. You think others will follow suit? No, Henry

is going on a political journey and he has made a series of

interventions that have been helpful to nationalists. It is a bit of

mischief. You are talking about something that if you look at

opinion polls on Friday, 50% voting no, 28% yes, so you might as well as

me what kind of Lamborghini I would buy if I won the lottery, . In terms

of what might happen after a yes vote, can you understand why those

supporting the union do not want to engage? Yes, because as soon as you

get people focused on the exciting things we could do with

independence, you start getting people in gay in that very campaign,

and this is what the no side doesn't want. They want to keep people fixed

on the negative. Once you turn to the positive, it is a game for the

yes people, and I don't think we will have any difficulty think

Scottish grandees, although I hope we will be careful that ordinary

Scots also get engaged in transition processes, but if there was a yes

vote, no shortage of people prepared to get involved in creating a new

society in Scotland. But this is something the no side will not

really discuss. No, because by discussing it, and this is what

nationalists want to happen, you make it seem like there is an

inevitability about of it, it is more likely to happen than it is, so

they will not play into that agenda and will stay away from that. Let's

talk about another story, this strike next week at the Grangemouth

chemical plant, 48 hours from next Sunday. How concerned should

Scotland be about this? I gather there are enough reserves for the

strike next week in a few days, but it is concerning because the

management and workers seem at loggerheads with each other, and the

language that is being used, blackmail and things like that, you

want them to knock some heads together or get some cooler heads

and say, this is millions of pounds for the economy, which is still in

recovery, people trying to get to work across the country, you have a

responsibility to reach an agreement, and people will find it

difficult to understand that this is being considered over what seems to

be an issue regarding an individual convener in there. It seems out of

proportion to the problem, and I hope cooler heads prevail. A

difficult one for politicians because the do not want to become

involved in the dispute with they are trying to negotiate the future

of this plan. It is difficult to understand what the owners are up to

because they seem to want to have a strike. Obviously they want to

reduce their costs, they want concessions from the unions, but why

would you pick on a shop stewards convener on disciplinary action on a

comparatively minor issue, knowing this will provoke the union into

taking action? Why pick on that issue? Why not just say they want

negotiations on how they can help to make the plant more viable and get

into constructive discussion, but by persisting on that disciplinary

action, they seem to want to be provoking a strike. Next week, we

have the SNP conference. What do the SNP have to do regards

independence? Salmond had a difficult balancing act. Polls are

great for them at the moment but he needs to say we can turn this

around, get them fired up, it also needs to be speaking out to people

in the real world and try to paint a vision for them of what independent

Scotland might be, because it has been quite scatter-gun. We will

leave it there, but thank you both for coming to speak to us. That is

all from us this week. We are back at 11am next week. Goodbye, and

enjoy your Sunday.