24/08/2014 Sunday Politics Scotland


24/08/2014

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Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:00:40.:00:39.

Pensions are a key issue in the referendum -

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we look at the competing claims from both campaigns.

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You would be surprised at how little importance people look at pensions

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with in your working career. It is not until we get closer to

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retirement that it becomes a big issue. Age 55 and over becomes,

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where is my pension, where is it coming from?

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And Alex Salmond's former head of policy tells us we can transform

:01:09.:01:11.

society and lead ourselves to a better world.

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For most people in work, it's something that you prefer not

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to think about, but for those edging past 55, suddenly pensions

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They provide security and stability in the "third age",

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and any fundamental political changes could threaten that.

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But so could the changing shape of our population.

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In the referendum campaign, both sides have been trying to

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assure us that, whatever happens, there will be continuity.

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The Scottish Government's White Paper outlines a single-tier pension

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Westminster plans include a single-tier pension

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But, as Andrew Kerr reports, a little nest egg stored away to

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emerge 30 years later is something to value.

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The water of life sampled by these two lists on Edinburgh's Royal mile,

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long anticipated and a final reward after years of storage, much like a

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pension. As arguments in the independence debate are distilled

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down, this is out as a key issue for voters. Better Together have been

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warning the EU will continue to require cross-border pension schemes

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to be fully funded in an independent Scotland. The trade association for

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workplace pension schemes warns this could be expensive. They have

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potentially two options. They could close the scheme altogether because

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of the costs involved or they could split that scheme into. A scheme

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north of the border and in the south. Those would come at a great

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cost indeed and they would have to find that money, which could be

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invested elsewhere in the business. Ultimately, those costs could be

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passed on to the people, the Sabres follow schemes. -- the savers. Some

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experts say the industry has caught with change in the past and any

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future development will run smoothly. Pensions in the UK have

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gone through significant change in all of my career. Every decade has

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seen a significant regulatory change which has been managed and delivered

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etc etc. I see an independent Scotland where there will be changes

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to the pension system, but I do not see that negatively. I think it can

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happen. There is an amazing intellect in Scotland around the

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whole pensions industry and I think an independent Scotland could take

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advantage of that. So, with" best. As with any long-term prospects, who

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knows what the future holds. He has to check the whisky every once in

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awhile to make sure it is just right. And we as taxpayers probably

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have to manage our own expectations when it comes to pensions. Remember

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when the state pension was first introduced, people lived only a few

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years more than the average state pension now. Life expectancy in

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Scotland is 78 or so. State pension age is 65 and heading that way

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forward in as well. The number of years that people expect the state

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to look after them has kind of increased quite substantially. Of

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course, there is no pension fund as such that people contribute to and

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then draw from. It does not work that way. People in work now are

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paying for today's pensioners but you have to get the right ratio. The

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pensioners of the future will continue to rely on those who work.

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It will depend on how much they pay and are willing to pay in taxes to

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support older people. Whether the expectations that people have now

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can continue to be realised, it is something Government is aware of and

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it is kind to rein back on the expectation that it will would

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spend, say, more than a third of their life in receiving a pension.

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With independence or the union, perhaps no-one is sure of the taste

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of things to come as the population changes. He gets all the best

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locations, doesn't he? Today's Sunday Post has carried out

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a poll of 1,000 pensioners on their Nearly 90% intend to vote, 32.6%

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intend to vote yes, 54.8% intend Stripping out

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the "don't knows" takes it to 37% The majority say pensions has been

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a factor in their decision. Nearly 75% have some concerns how

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the state pension will be funded Just over 40% also expressed concern

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about how the state pension would be funded

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if Scotland remains part of the UK. Joining me is

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Labour MP Gregg McClymont, and from Aberdeen, Dr Eilidh Whiteford, who

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is the SNP pensions spokesperson. Eilidh Whiteford, it is pretty clear

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people are concerned about... Let's start with the state pension in

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independent Scotland. Are they right to be worried? The UK Government and

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Scottish Government have made very clear that your entitlement to a

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state pension is based on your contributions record and not on

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either where you live or what your citizenship is. If you think about

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it at the moment, lots of people, when they retire, go off to Spain or

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France or somewhere sunny and still get their pension. Government has

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been very clear that it is based on your contribution, not on where you

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live. I think a lot of the scaremongering we have seen on state

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pensions has been quite unnecessary and is not backed up by reality. All

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right. Gregg McClymont, that is right. Let's stick to the state

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pension. Even the British Government seems to accept that if Britain

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becomes independent, pensioners will get what they would have got if we

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were part of the UK. -- Scotland becomes. Pensioners do not even know

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the currency that they will get their pension in. It is not a

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surprise that pensioners are concerned or anxious about what

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independence means for pensions. What Tim acted as not mention is

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that the state pension entitlement would need a series of negotiations

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between Scotland and the UK and around currency and pensions

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therein. -- what Eilidh Whiteford. If you're a pensioner and you do not

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know what currency your pension will be in after Scotland leads UK...

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What about that point? It is not just currency, pensions are

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protected. We do not know what inflation would be in an independent

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Scotland, whether it would be higher or more than the UK. We do not know

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what we jamming rises would be like. -- wages rises. We do not know what

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would be like in the UK. You would need a crystal ball to predict it.

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It is being alarmist about prospect rather being honest. At the moment,

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Scotland are spending less as a proportion of both those revenues

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and GDP on pensions and because of that we are in a better position to

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afford pensions than the rest of the UK. But you accept the other greater

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proportion and will continue to have a greater proportion of elderly

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people, therefore that will change quite quickly? That equation will

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change over time. There are challenges for every country in the

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western world are challenges for every country in the Western world

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in changing demographics. But the real question is how we boost our

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working age population to address that challenge and let's not just

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sit on our hands and assume that we will not do anything to address

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those problems. We address that in a little bit. Gregg McClymont, Eilidh

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Whiteford as a point. Every country in the world has issues about how it

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finances pensions. The issues facing an independent Scotland, there could

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be problems and issues, but the no different from anyone else.

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Professor David Bell, you quoted on another matter, as pointed out

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amongst others that Scotland will face greater challenges in filling

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that population age gap. -- working age gap. That might need to be

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something we will have a discussion about and we have not had that so

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far. More widely, she talks about the challenges the UK faces, but it

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isn't -- is it not the case the UK has always paid its pensions infill

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and in time? If 72% of pensioners are worried about the prospect of

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their pensions, does the fault lies with pensioners? Are they wrong to

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be worried? Pensioners have had a lot of alarmist stories that

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Scotland cannot pay pensions and that is simply not true. Scotland is

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in a better position than the rest of the UK to pay pensions because we

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have higher levels of employment in Scotland. We also have more life

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expectancy, so pensions are more affordable. That will not change

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with independence. Eilidh Whiteford, this issue of cross-border pensions,

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that worries a lot of people. Under European Union rules, if you're part

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of a private company's pension scheme are part of it in England and

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part of it in Scotland, it will have to be fully funded if we become

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independent. You heard earlier the claims that could be a serious

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problem. It is an issue that affects not state pension is an issue that

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affects not state pension us but people in occupational pensions in

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the private sector. Clearly, we need to look at what is happening in

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other parts of the European Union will this has been the case, to look

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at how to sort it out. Indeed, the UK Government has worked with the

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Republic of Ireland's Government to address this issue and did so in

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2005. The new directive is very clear that it is possible that

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existing recovery arrangements can be used. But the fundamental issue

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is if your company's pension scheme is underfunded, it does not matter

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what your constitutional position is. The underlying problem is still

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there. If we want to be the heads in the sand about that, that is not

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sure, but actually, we have an opportunity to make sure these

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schemes are properly funded. Gregg McClymont, what about that point?

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The issues she is highlighting is that there are problems with

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cross-border pensions and there is this European Union directive. The

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British Government gave a three-year grace period for this to be sorted

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out. We not really in a different from anyone else. But the problem is

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created by creating a border, that is why it is a cross-border issue

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between Scotland and the rest of the UK. If it can be solved in the UK

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and the rest of the European Union, as Tim acted as said, it can be

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solved in the case of Ireland, why should Scotland be so unique? -- as

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Eilidh Whiteford said. They have not met the regulations with

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cross-border funding. It has not been solved with the Republic of

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Ireland. There are enormous amounts of schemes. The total deficit of

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private sector pension schemes that were beyond these rules is more than

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?200 billion in the UK. As a number of bodies have said repeatedly, that

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is a huge problem. How are companies meant to realise those deficits in

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three years? Most schemes are running 10-15 year recovery periods.

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Presumably, Eilidh Whiteford, do you have proposals to extend three years

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to ten or 15 years? We have. We have proposed that ourselves and the UK

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Government sit down and work out whether those existing recovery

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plans are feasible. That has happened in the past with other

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places. Particularly in Ireland, they have been allowed to work to

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existing recovery plans. They have not been limited in that way by the

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European directive. There is no reason that should not happen in

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Scotland. Let's not forget the fundamental issue is the Fonda, --

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underfunding of those schemes. Pure assertion. Thank you both indeed. It

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has been a busy week in a referendum campaign. Let's look at the week in

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60 seconds. The head of NATO said an independent

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Scotland would have to be applied to the Alliance. The Scottish

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Government said it would be in other member states interests to the

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membership. Sir Ian Wood said the Scottish Government's North Sea oil

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forecasts are 60% too high. The first master said there was a

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wealth of contrasting expert opinion. Both sides took to the

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airwaves to debate the future of broadcasting. Labour said a yes vote

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could devastate the industry. But there were claims a new Scottish

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Broadcasting Service would reinvigorate. There was a spat over

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civil servants. A Whitehall department advised staff to vote nor

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was the Scottish Health Secretary was criticised for writing to

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reassure NHS staff about pensions postindependence. And it was

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announced that more than 1 million people have signed a declaration to

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vote yes. The no camp claim it still speaks for the majority of Scots.

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So, as the referendum campaign enters its final stretch,

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neither side is wanting for advice from outside sources.

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One man who used to be on the inside is Alex Salmond's former head of

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policy, Alex Bell, who joins me now. You have just written a book. You

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saying you were taken on by the Scottish Government because the

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British government were interested in proposals about people max. There

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were attempts and off the there could conversations about what devo

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max would look like. My point in saying that in the book was to say

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the UK government knew what a evil Max package would look like. --

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default. -- devo max. It was in 2010, signals had been made that

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they may be open to some kind of wider discussion. Actually the

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Scottish Government first preference was for some kind of devo max

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settlement. It was to be something that met the needs of the people.

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The Tory government where receptive to that. What would have

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subsequently happened, had the talks got any rare, which they didn't, I

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do not know. They were certainly of an open mind and constructive mind.

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If I were Alex Salmond I would not be grateful because you came out and

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supported independence and told us among other things that Trident

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would stay and it should so that Scotland were seen as responsible.

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You tell us a currency union would mean Scotland was not really

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independent and most of your ideas about independence do not need

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independence if only the UK government would implement some of

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them. What struck me then and strikes me now is a conspicuous lack

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of humility by the political classes of both sides. That humility and

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minds to the fact we had gone through a number of crises,

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financial, environmental, we need more complex city and nuance than

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simply saying you are right, you are wrong, you are a liar. I think

:17:44.:17:54.

everyone is inclined to say they speak for the majority but I speak

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for the point of view that says we need the powers to transform our

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society. I would have guessed -- settled at devo max. The entire time

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I was working for Alex Salmond that would have been a point of view I

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would have looked. I am not an out and out Nationalist but I am an out

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and out yes person. That is the only option on the table. If I wear Ed

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Malabar and I would be thinking I quite like that but there is little

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in your boot Ed Miliband would disagree with. -- eight Miliband. --

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aid Miliband. What Scotland needs is a Labour Party with a spine. We need

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a socially progressive society which uses its funds to benefit people.

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There is no reason Ed Miliband and the Labour Party should advocate

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that. There is no reason for that idea to have got out with party

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bounds. You raise the issue of, if there is a yes vote what is it that

:19:19.:19:25.

the Scottish Government has a mandate to negotiate. You point out

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there will be a currency union, it will be brilliant but other times

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you saying you are not voting for the SMP but for an independent

:19:36.:19:42.

Scotland. There would be a mandate to negotiate for independence which

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was agreed between Edinburgh and the global community. The interesting

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point is that it is not entirely clear who would do that negotiation

:19:56.:20:02.

for the UK. It does not seem David has a mandate at all. It seems a

:20:03.:20:09.

broadband negotiating team are addressing the idea it is not the

:20:10.:20:18.

national idea. You are arguing for a yes vote based on a prospectus that

:20:19.:20:27.

you outline which no political party in Scotland has the slightest

:20:28.:20:33.

intention of implementing. If you want the kind of policies that a

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properly brought party should be delivering, they cannot deliver that

:20:38.:20:43.

in the UK as it stands. The only way to get that is by taking control

:20:44.:20:52.

closer to home. Your prospectuses for the Scottish Labour Party? They

:20:53.:20:57.

are welcome to take it after a yes vote and can run on that mandate

:20:58.:20:59.

next time. policy, Alex Bell, who joins me now.

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You're watching Sunday Politics Scotland. Let's cross now for the

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news with Andrew Kerr. Good afternoon. Both sides in the

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independence referendum campaign are A former moderator of the General

:21:18.:21:20.

Assembly of the Church of Scotland has announced he's supporting the

:21:21.:21:23.

Yes campaign along with more than 30 other kirk ministers. The

:21:24.:21:25.

Very Reverend Dr Andrew McLellan said

:21:26.:21:27.

independence was a "once in a lifetime opportunity to remove

:21:28.:21:29.

Trident". The issue was debated at the Kirk's Assembly. However, Better

:21:30.:21:32.

Together, say people of all faiths and none are saying "no thanks" to

:21:33.:21:35.

independence because of the "risk and uncertainty" that comes with

:21:36.:21:41.

Over 100 people have gathered in Shetland to remember the

:21:42.:21:44.

four who died in last year's helicopter crash off Sumburgh

:21:45.:21:47.

Airport. A short service was held at the Sumburgh memorial last night. A

:21:48.:21:50.

new plaque was dedicated to the victims, and a number of survivors

:21:51.:21:53.

made the journey to the islands for the service. Later, two wreaths were

:21:54.:21:57.

laid at sea at the site of the crash. The event was also marked by

:21:58.:22:06.

a helicopter fly past. Let's take a look at the weather

:22:07.:22:08.

with Sarah. It should stay largely dry and we

:22:09.:22:21.

have a law of bright weather across the board. We could still see a few

:22:22.:22:26.

showers across the far North Highlands. For most of us, staying

:22:27.:22:33.

dry. We will see a fair amount of Clyde pushing in from the South

:22:34.:22:38.

West, turning the sunshine he's a. That is it. Now back to Gordon.

:22:39.:22:51.

with Sarah. I'm joined now by Ian Blackford,

:22:52.:22:53.

former SNP Treasurer, and businessman, and by Raymond

:22:54.:22:55.

Robertson, former Conservative MP for Aberdeen South.

:22:56.:23:09.

Let's start on pensions. Surely we can have sympathy for the public. It

:23:10.:23:17.

is difficult enough to understand pensions without having to worry

:23:18.:23:21.

about if there is an independent Scotland. People will be safe and

:23:22.:23:28.

secure in an independent Scotland, pensions will continue to be paid.

:23:29.:23:34.

The threat has come to the pension funds from Gordon Brown and the

:23:35.:23:41.

attack on pensions 20 years ago. What we do is for the Scottish

:23:42.:23:49.

economy to increase certainty for pensions. Do you buy that? It is not

:23:50.:23:57.

helped when John Swinney tells the Scottish Cabinet confidentially

:23:58.:24:00.

there will be an independent Scotland problem with pensions. It

:24:01.:24:06.

is not just state pensions, there are public sector pension funds?

:24:07.:24:12.

That is what John Swinney told the Scottish Cabinet. The health

:24:13.:24:18.

secretary said health pensions will be even higher in an independent

:24:19.:24:23.

Scotland, they are creating chaos, causing people to be genuinely

:24:24.:24:28.

concerned as to the future. You are right, it is not just the state

:24:29.:24:35.

pension. If you work for the NHS in Scotland there is an NHS pension but

:24:36.:24:43.

it is not funded, it is being paid out of taxation. That is true

:24:44.:24:47.

whether talking about an independent Scotland or the rest of the UK. If

:24:48.:24:53.

you are working for the NHS in Scotland and you are thinking about

:24:54.:24:57.

your NHS pension, you are doing the same position as people concerned

:24:58.:25:04.

about the state pension? That is not the case. Your entitlement will

:25:05.:25:08.

remain whether or not Scotland is independent. The real issue is that

:25:09.:25:15.

Westminster are raising the retirement age throughout the UK

:25:16.:25:21.

when the life expectancy in Scotland is considerably lower. We want to

:25:22.:25:26.

make sure we have a comfortable retirement. The real issue here is

:25:27.:25:32.

if you take the FTSE 100, it is only one company that has a defined

:25:33.:25:36.

pensions scheme. That is not the fault of the SNP or the government.

:25:37.:25:45.

It is the fault of Westminster. Coming up tomorrow is the debate

:25:46.:25:50.

between Alistair Darling and Alex Salmond, I am not sure you are any

:25:51.:25:58.

more of an Alistair Darling fan than you are an Alex Salmond fan but what

:25:59.:26:06.

do you think each of them has to do? Alex Salmond and the yes campaign

:26:07.:26:10.

will somehow have it in them to accept they have introduced an

:26:11.:26:16.

nastiness and intolerance to Scottish politics in the last few

:26:17.:26:22.

months which is unhelpful and I hope the First Minister concedes you can

:26:23.:26:27.

indeed be a proud and passionate Scot and be voting no. I think the

:26:28.:26:33.

intolerance and nastiness does not help Scotland and the healing

:26:34.:26:37.

process that must happen the day after the referendum. Presumably the

:26:38.:26:44.

chapter that he considered Alex Salmond did not do that well last

:26:45.:26:49.

time, he will almost certainly do better this time. I think he will

:26:50.:26:56.

come out fighting tomorrow. He will give a positive vision as to what an

:26:57.:27:01.

independent Scotland will look like. We have to focus on the positive. At

:27:02.:27:07.

the same kind, there are questions Alistair Darling will have to answer

:27:08.:27:13.

tomorrow. These are challenges for maintaining a national health

:27:14.:27:17.

service free at the point of need. Whether or not we want to protect

:27:18.:27:22.

the ethos of a public national health service in an independent

:27:23.:27:27.

Scotland, those are the choices the people of Scotland face. If you are

:27:28.:27:33.

Alistair Darling, what do you do tomorrow? You know Alex Salmond will

:27:34.:27:39.

probably be more impressive than he seemed last time. How do you prepare

:27:40.:27:45.

for that? Alistair Darling has to keep on at the central questions of

:27:46.:27:50.

this referendum campaign. At the top is the currency. If he bangs on

:27:51.:27:57.

about the currency again he will be seen as a one trick pony. It is

:27:58.:28:03.

about getting Alex Salmond to join the rest of us in the deal Scotland.

:28:04.:28:10.

With a yes vote we all know there will be no sheared sterling, we know

:28:11.:28:15.

that and we need Alistair -- Alex Salmond to admit this. It is the

:28:16.:28:24.

simple answer, we will continue to use the pound. The currency

:28:25.:28:29.

commission have raised a number of alternatives that would see us still

:28:30.:28:34.

continue to use the pound. Come what May, an independent Scotland will be

:28:35.:28:36.

using the pound. for Aberdeen South.

:28:37.:28:45.

And you can watch the First Minister Alex Salmond and Better Together

:28:46.:28:47.

leader Alistair Darling go head-to-head on the BBC tomorrow

:28:48.:28:50.

evening. That's on BBC 1 Scotland on Monday night at 8 o'clock.

:28:51.:28:53.

That's all from the us this week. I'll be back at the same time next

:28:54.:28:56.

week. Until then, goodbye.

:28:57.:29:02.

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