20/03/2016 Sunday Politics Scotland


20/03/2016

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 20/03/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Iain Duncan Smith follows up his resignation with a blistering

:00:41.:00:50.

attack on George Osborne, saying some of the Chancellor's

:00:51.:00:53.

budget measures are deeply unfair and damaging to the country.

:00:54.:00:56.

It's being seen as a direct attack on Chancellor Osborne -

:00:57.:01:00.

are his leadership hopes now holed below the waterline?

:01:01.:01:03.

And with ministers now close to civil war over IDS's resignation,

:01:04.:01:06.

can David Cameron keep the warring factions of his government together?

:01:07.:01:08.

Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland...

:01:09.:01:09.

Ruth Davidson says the Chancellor's plans to cut payments

:01:10.:01:11.

to the disabled showed "short termism".

:01:12.:01:14.

How will that row over IDS play out here?

:01:15.:01:23.

And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political

:01:24.:01:32.

panel in the business - Nick Watt, Isabel Oakeshott

:01:33.:01:36.

and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme

:01:37.:01:40.

So, George Osborne unveiled a Budget which he hoped

:01:41.:01:45.

would satisfy the Tory faithful, generate a feel-good factor

:01:46.:01:49.

in the run up to the EU referendum and enhance his own leadership

:01:50.:01:52.

That strategy started to come off the rails within 24 hours

:01:53.:01:58.

as the Chancellor faced Tory revolts on four fronts.

:01:59.:02:01.

And was blown to smithereens on Friday night when welfare

:02:02.:02:03.

secretary Iain Duncan Smith resigned over savings to disability payments.

:02:04.:02:06.

This morning open warfare is breaking out

:02:07.:02:09.

We'll be devoting the next half hour to this story,

:02:10.:02:20.

with analysis and comment from Nick, Isabel and Janan and interviews

:02:21.:02:23.

with the shadow work and pensions secretary Owen Smith,

:02:24.:02:27.

the Conservative backbencher Heidi Allen, and the head

:02:28.:02:30.

of the Institute for Fiscal Studies Paul Johnson.

:02:31.:02:32.

First, Giles Dilnot reports on the very public falling out

:02:33.:02:36.

at the top of David Cameron's government.

:02:37.:02:39.

When the Chancellor gets badly hurt in an attack from his own side,

:02:40.:02:44.

we shouldn't be surprised where it came

:02:45.:02:47.

Iain Duncan Smith and George Osborne whenever was buddies

:02:48.:02:54.

and they are on the opposite sides of the EU

:02:55.:02:58.

But for nearly six years, they've worked together

:02:59.:03:06.

in government, delivering welfare reform and savings.

:03:07.:03:08.

Last July, when the Chancellor announced the living

:03:09.:03:10.

Those currently on the minimum wage will see that pay rise

:03:11.:03:15.

And whilst in polling, there was popular support

:03:16.:03:23.

for balancing the books and reforming welfare,

:03:24.:03:30.

there was also angry protest, especially from disabled people,

:03:31.:03:33.

who passionately believed they had been targeted

:03:34.:03:35.

The deepest wound a Work and Pensions

:03:36.:03:39.

Secretary could inflict on his own governments,

:03:40.:03:42.

On Wednesday we were touted a budget that would be dull,

:03:43.:03:51.

not much wriggle room or rabbits, sugared or otherwise.

:03:52.:03:54.

Nonetheless, the Chancellor and wannabe PM was

:03:55.:03:56.

The richest 1% pay 28% of all income tax revenue,

:03:57.:04:01.

a higher proportion than in any single year

:04:02.:04:09.

Proof that we are all in this together.

:04:10.:04:14.

But not so for many disabled people and enough Tory MPs,

:04:15.:04:17.

On welfare, last week my right honourable friend the Secretary

:04:18.:04:23.

of State for Work and Pensions, set out changes that will ensure

:04:24.:04:28.

that within the rising disability budget, support is better

:04:29.:04:31.

It was a confirmation of changes that just 48 hours later would see

:04:32.:04:38.

a resignation letter from the man the Chancellor was referring to,

:04:39.:04:40.

questioning if enough is being done to ensure

:04:41.:04:45.

These were changes to personal independence payments that have

:04:46.:04:51.

replaced disability living allowance, that would make it more

:04:52.:04:55.

likely large numbers of recipients got less money,

:04:56.:04:58.

and in some cases much less, in future.

:04:59.:05:09.

Something he regarded as a compromise too far.

:05:10.:05:12.

According to Mr Duncan Smith, the changes had demanded because too

:05:13.:05:14.

much emphasis on money-saving exercises and that his welfare

:05:15.:05:16.

to work reforms could not be repeatedly

:05:17.:05:17.

By this weekend, the government's unofficial paramedic

:05:18.:05:23.

was dispatched to patch up the internal wounds,

:05:24.:05:24.

Mr Duncan Smith's literary cuts had inflicted.

:05:25.:05:38.

by the whole Cabinet on Wednesday morning before the Chancellor

:05:39.:05:43.

And he was obviously part of that process.

:05:44.:05:47.

These proposals came from his department.

:05:48.:05:49.

And the PM's response to the letter stressed...

:05:50.:05:55.

In the hours after the budget, amid angry

:05:56.:05:57.

rumblings from the backbenches, suddenly the government

:05:58.:05:59.

where describing and announced policy

:06:00.:06:01.

Something that has been put forward, there has been a review,

:06:02.:06:06.

And the suggestion the next day from the PM

:06:07.:06:11.

We are going to discuss what we put forward

:06:12.:06:16.

with the disability charities and others, as the Chancellor said

:06:17.:06:19.

It is important this increase in money

:06:20.:06:27.

goes to the people who need it the most.

:06:28.:06:30.

The problem is, the internal party concerns were that it looked

:06:31.:06:32.

like money was going to those that didn't need it most.

:06:33.:06:34.

The headline rate of capital gains tax currently stands at 28%.

:06:35.:06:36.

I am cutting the capital gains tax paid by basic rate

:06:37.:06:41.

Iain Duncan Smith said the disability

:06:42.:06:46.

reforms couldn't be defended within a budget that benefits

:06:47.:06:48.

I'm told this was the most toxic aspect for a large number

:06:49.:06:55.

And that he was not the only conservative in government

:06:56.:07:00.

who'd considered resignation over this.

:07:01.:07:02.

But not everyone was sorry to see him go.

:07:03.:07:04.

The problems have been at the heart of the DWP.

:07:05.:07:11.

I do not see eye to eye with the Treasury,

:07:12.:07:14.

I'm not the Chancellor's biggest supporter,

:07:15.:07:18.

shall we say, but the reality is, in all the experiences I've had,

:07:19.:07:21.

the problems have been with an evangelical point of view,

:07:22.:07:23.

They have consistently failed disabled people

:07:24.:07:28.

As Stephen Crabb takes on work and pensions,

:07:29.:07:33.

But clearly the quiet man reflected if

:07:34.:07:41.

you're going to turn up the volume at all,

:07:42.:07:43.

best rattle the windows of Downing Street.

:07:44.:07:45.

A war of words has now broken out in Iain Duncan Smith's

:07:46.:07:49.

old department, with one junior minister accusing him

:07:50.:07:52.

of "shocking" behaviour, but three other ministers rounding

:07:53.:07:54.

Mr Duncan Smith gave his first post-resignation interview to Andrew

:07:55.:07:59.

Anybody who thinks this is a here today, gone tomorrow

:08:00.:08:05.

I am genuinely frustrated, I have no personal ambitions. If I never go

:08:06.:08:16.

back into government again, I will not cry about that, it is not my

:08:17.:08:21.

ambition. I came into this government, and let me be clear, I

:08:22.:08:25.

came into this government because I cared about welfare reform. I spent

:08:26.:08:32.

eight years in social justice trying to figure out why certain

:08:33.:08:35.

communities were so badly off and how could we get them back to work

:08:36.:08:40.

and solve that one. Everything I have done has been driven by my

:08:41.:08:44.

desire to improve the quality of life for the worst. We can debate my

:08:45.:08:48.

policies, but my motivation has always been a bad back. My motive

:08:49.:08:56.

now, I am concerned that I want to succeed and it cannot do the things

:08:57.:09:02.

it should because it is too focused on narrowly getting the deficit down

:09:03.:09:04.

without saying where it should for. Minutes later the energy

:09:05.:09:19.

secretary Amber Rudd, popped up to attack her former

:09:20.:09:21.

cabinet colleague - saying she resents Mr Duncan Smith's

:09:22.:09:24.

"high moral tone". I do remain perplexed. It indicated

:09:25.:09:35.

he was making progress. He wrote a letter on Thursday night saying what

:09:36.:09:39.

he was doing and why we should support it. So I don't understand. I

:09:40.:09:46.

do remain perplexed about it, but I am disappointed. This is an man I

:09:47.:09:51.

sat a cabinet with for nearly a year. He was a cabinet minister for

:09:52.:09:56.

nearly six years. I do respect him, so to suddenly launch a bombshell on

:09:57.:10:03.

the rest of us in a way that is difficult for us all to understand,

:10:04.:10:12.

is disappointing. It is the Tory party now in open welfare and it is

:10:13.:10:21.

not easily quelled? If Amber Rudd is perplexed, it is a dereliction of

:10:22.:10:25.

duty on her part to understand what has been going on in her own

:10:26.:10:30.

Administration. In a way, there is nothing sudden about this for Iain

:10:31.:10:33.

Duncan Smith, it has been brewing for a long time. She has known that.

:10:34.:10:39.

He has been rustling for a long time whether he can do better, staying

:10:40.:10:43.

where he is and operating within the difficult constraints the Treasury

:10:44.:10:48.

has imposed on him. Or whether he is better off out and saying what he

:10:49.:10:52.

really thinks. That is what tipped him over the edge. The Downing

:10:53.:10:57.

Street strategy is to paint Iain Duncan Smith as a kind of,

:10:58.:11:02.

head-banging Eurosceptic and try to pretend it is all about the EU

:11:03.:11:06.

referendum. I don't think anyone who watched Iain Duncan Smith this

:11:07.:11:09.

morning giving that powerful interview to Andrew Marr, could

:11:10.:11:15.

really doubt that what this is about is Iain Duncan Smith's real desire

:11:16.:11:19.

to do the right thing by the disadvantaged. The rest is just

:11:20.:11:28.

noises off. When you look at some of these clips come he comes out

:11:29.:11:32.

against the welfare cap, to arbitrate. If you are sitting in the

:11:33.:11:40.

Labour Party right now, you will be cutting up that interview and

:11:41.:11:44.

pouring it out at every opportunity. This story will go on and on? I

:11:45.:11:50.

interviewed Iain Duncan Smith about two months after the 2010 election.

:11:51.:11:56.

He said if George Osborne wants me to be a cheese parer and do

:11:57.:12:00.

arbitrate cuts, I will be out. Isabel says commie has been rustling

:12:01.:12:05.

for six years with this. He came into this after the visit to the

:12:06.:12:11.

Easterhouse estate in Glasgow. He had in Europe and championed the

:12:12.:12:15.

vulnerable. He came to it with a mission to try and increase

:12:16.:12:19.

incentives for the low paid to combat to work. To George Osborne,

:12:20.:12:25.

it is the bottom line. But it is not going to go away, you have the

:12:26.:12:29.

extraordinary spectacle of three ministers in his former department,

:12:30.:12:32.

pretty Patel included, putting out statements in support of the Iain

:12:33.:12:38.

Duncan Smith. And you have the pensions minister delivering a

:12:39.:12:41.

Downing Street script saying this is about Europe, even though there is

:12:42.:12:43.

not a word about Europe in Iain Duncan Smith's statement. Ross

:12:44.:12:49.

Altman, who was unhappy with Downing Street and the Treasury on the

:12:50.:12:53.

pension changes coming out and delivering what Downing Street one.

:12:54.:12:57.

It is a mess and it shows the normal discipline you would expect in

:12:58.:13:01.

government really is a challenge but the referendum. It is over the

:13:02.:13:08.

George Osborne? If wasn't on the budget. Tax credits last summer,

:13:09.:13:12.

reversal on pension reforms this year. And now this, you cannot

:13:13.:13:18.

deliver but on Wednesday which is just a proposition by Thursday

:13:19.:13:20.

evening and by Friday evening provokes a senior Cabinet colleagues

:13:21.:13:23.

resignation. It is bad for him. The government should be able to

:13:24.:13:38.

stun them month after a general election Monday, ... And start with

:13:39.:13:46.

them all going in different ways during the referendum, it could get

:13:47.:13:50.

worse. They need this referendum out of the way as quickly as possible.

:13:51.:13:55.

They need a comfortable victory by would suggest, with the remaining

:13:56.:14:00.

side, David Cameron's side to have any chance of putting a look on

:14:01.:14:06.

this. In four years' time, at a general election will determine

:14:07.:14:11.

George Osborne's leadership chances? Quite possibly. I don't know how the

:14:12.:14:15.

Chancellor will put this back together again if you EU referendum

:14:16.:14:20.

campaign. It might not just be a Osborne's future on the line, it

:14:21.:14:25.

could be the Prime Minister's the Chancellor's fate if tied to the

:14:26.:14:28.

Prime Minister. They are the project, they have worked together

:14:29.:14:32.

to make the Conservatives electable again. It George Osborne goes down,

:14:33.:14:37.

David Cameron's position is in doubt. I am not suggesting we care

:14:38.:14:42.

at this point, the it is destabilising.

:14:43.:14:46.

And don't forget Cameron has never been master of these events. As

:14:47.:14:53.

ever, he ain't controlling it. As we know, these things have a life of

:14:54.:14:56.

their own, so it should keep us busy.

:14:57.:15:03.

Iain Duncan Smith's resignation has been simmering for some time

:15:04.:15:06.

but it was triggered by plans to make cuts to disability benefits

:15:07.:15:09.

A few days before George Osborne's budget, the government previewed

:15:10.:15:14.

plans to change the way claimants were assessed for certain disability

:15:15.:15:19.

benefits, saving ?1.3 billion a year. The office of budgetary

:15:20.:15:23.

responsibility said the changes to the personal independence payments,

:15:24.:15:30.

or Pips, would adversely affect 370,000 people by 2020. The amount

:15:31.:15:36.

of Paire pick a person receives is decided by awarding points based on

:15:37.:15:46.

need -- the amount of PIP. Grab rails, personal toilet seats,

:15:47.:15:48.

arguing people would audit have these items. Iain Duncan Smith

:15:49.:15:53.

resigned, saying the changes were not responsible. Replying to the

:15:54.:16:01.

resignation, the Prime Minister said it had now been agreed not to

:16:02.:16:04.

proceed with the policies in their current form. But that wasn't the

:16:05.:16:09.

only major criticism levelled at George Osborne's budget. The

:16:10.:16:12.

Chancellor confirmed he will miss Fiorentina of his three fiscal

:16:13.:16:16.

rules. Next financial year, welfare bill cost almost ?120 billion, well

:16:17.:16:22.

over the cap of ?115 billion, which he introduced himself to restrict

:16:23.:16:27.

overall welfare spending. And he also broke his debt rule, which

:16:28.:16:30.

promised that national debt would decline every year as a proportion

:16:31.:16:36.

of national income. This financial year, total debt is expected to be

:16:37.:16:44.

83.7% of GDP, up from 83.3% in 2014-15.

:16:45.:16:47.

We did ask the Government for an interview about the disability

:16:48.:16:49.

But we were told no one was available.

:16:50.:16:52.

It's a familiar refrain these days, especially when the government

:16:53.:16:55.

I'm joined now by the head of the Institute for

:16:56.:16:59.

Welcome to the programme. It looks like the government is making a

:17:00.:17:08.

U-turn on these cuts to disability payments, how big a haul does that

:17:09.:17:15.

blow in the Chancellor's efforts to get a budget surplus by 2020? The

:17:16.:17:19.

truth is we are talking very small numbers in the context of ?800

:17:20.:17:23.

billion a year or so of spending. The Chancellor is aiming for nearly

:17:24.:17:28.

a billion pound surplus, he doesn't get this, it takes just down to

:17:29.:17:31.

under ten, so in that sense it doesn't matter all that much to his

:17:32.:17:38.

target the 2020. But he has already inked in 3.5 billion of unspecified

:17:39.:17:41.

cuts, we don't know what they would be to get this surplus, but there

:17:42.:17:45.

are about eight or 9 billion of watch some might call

:17:46.:17:49.

jiggery-pokery, cuts to public investment in the final year, and

:17:50.:17:52.

now this. It must make it more difficult for them. There are all

:17:53.:18:03.

sorts of things in the budget aimed at that particular year. Numbers are

:18:04.:18:07.

being moved around and there are some unspecified spending cuts. It

:18:08.:18:11.

is important to see this in the broader context. Unless something

:18:12.:18:16.

awful happens, we will get close to a budget balance in 2019-20, which

:18:17.:18:22.

given that we were over 150 billion in deficit in 2010, the biggest

:18:23.:18:26.

deficit in his time that we have had, to get from their too close to

:18:27.:18:30.

surplus will be quite an achievement. Economically and

:18:31.:18:37.

enormously, but economically, the enormously, but economically, the

:18:38.:18:40.

difference between a ?10 billion surplus and the deficit is almost

:18:41.:18:43.

hear the dash-mac when neither here nor there.

:18:44.:18:52.

The Treasury would expect that department to find ?1.3 billion

:18:53.:18:58.

elsewhere, is that right? Not necessarily, this is unlike the

:18:59.:19:04.

health budget or the education budget, it is determined by the

:19:05.:19:07.

demands on the budget. So I think if they don't put these changes in, the

:19:08.:19:15.

presumption will be at least that the spending will still be in the

:19:16.:19:18.

budget. The day after the budget, you said the Chancellor had only a

:19:19.:19:24.

50-50 chance of filling his surplus in 2020. Would you like to

:19:25.:19:30.

recalibrate these odds? It is a relatively small change in the

:19:31.:19:33.

context of where we are, still a 50-50 shot. The thing that will

:19:34.:19:39.

determine it is much less changes of this kind and parsley more what

:19:40.:19:42.

happens to the economy, whether the economy does better or worse than

:19:43.:19:47.

currently expected. In many ways, the most important thing we learned

:19:48.:19:51.

on Wednesday is that the O BR has much less optimistic about the

:19:52.:19:55.

economy, and therefore we will all be worse off than we thought we were

:19:56.:20:01.

going to be. The Treasury, as Iain Duncan Smith has been saying, has

:20:02.:20:07.

been clawing away at working age benefits the years, for him this was

:20:08.:20:10.

the final straw. But isn't that inevitable, if you have a government

:20:11.:20:18.

who ring fences pensions and the NHS, the only big travel figure

:20:19.:20:21.

spending line is welfare? If you are looking, like the government has

:20:22.:20:25.

been common to really dramatically reduce the deficit significantly,

:20:26.:20:30.

you are not going to avoid doing things on the welfare side. Much

:20:31.:20:35.

more than ?100 billion was spent on just working age welfare, covered by

:20:36.:20:39.

that welfare cap, which is far more than we spend on almost anything

:20:40.:20:43.

else, apart from health service and pensions. But the Chancellor has

:20:44.:20:50.

created this fiscal position. Even though it was weaker, he cut

:20:51.:20:56.

business rates, he cut corporation tax, capital gains tax, he raised

:20:57.:20:59.

the personal allowance, and he raised 40p income tax threshold. He

:21:00.:21:04.

didn't have to do any of that. Even if he had done only some of that, he

:21:05.:21:08.

would not have had to look for these cuts in disability for study has

:21:09.:21:12.

made that himself will stop you are right, she didn't have to make any

:21:13.:21:15.

of those changes, but it was very clearly in the Conservative

:21:16.:21:19.

manifesto to increase the personal allowance. So presuming that he

:21:20.:21:24.

would have kept the manifesto changes, he would have had to have

:21:25.:21:27.

done that, and has to do quite a lot more route. Cutting those taxes

:21:28.:21:31.

clearly means you have to do some other things to maintain his target.

:21:32.:21:38.

But he didn't have to do them. Also, perhaps his leadership tensions did

:21:39.:21:41.

play a part. There were two major areas where they could have raised a

:21:42.:21:45.

lot of money, pension reform, by taking away the top tax-free, which

:21:46.:21:51.

could have saved billions, and raising the fuel duty. If you don't

:21:52.:21:55.

visit now, when will you? Both could have raised billions and he chose

:21:56.:21:59.

not to do it. Those are two very different kinds of things. Yes, you

:22:00.:22:03.

are right, it is astonishing with petrol prices at their lowest level

:22:04.:22:08.

for a very long time, chatty on petrol at its lowest level since the

:22:09.:22:12.

mid-19 90s, the cost of driving a car at its lowest level for perhaps

:22:13.:22:16.

30 years. If you can't increase fuel duties even then, that is a

:22:17.:22:20.

long-term problem for the Treasury, because it brings in a lot of money,

:22:21.:22:24.

?30 billion a year, and if that goes it is a real problem. On pension tax

:22:25.:22:28.

will if it is a much more complex issue. There are good economic

:22:29.:22:33.

arguments, for maintaining it as we have at the moment, and had you got

:22:34.:22:36.

rid of that 40% relief, you would have hit the 5 million or so people

:22:37.:22:42.

who pay 40% tax, it would have been another slice of the population

:22:43.:22:46.

rather unhappy. The national debt, not the deficit, will be 1.7 4

:22:47.:22:53.

trillion by 20 20. If the government was then to run a surplus of say 10

:22:54.:22:59.

billion a year for ten years, which would be unprecedented in British

:23:00.:23:02.

government, after a decade, the debt would still, by my simple rhythmic

:23:03.:23:10.

calculation, the ?1.64 trillion. Is that what you mean by economically

:23:11.:23:16.

irrelevant in running a surplus? The key point about the size of the debt

:23:17.:23:20.

is it is size as a fraction of national income. More important than

:23:21.:23:30.

the absolute level. As the -- even running a surplus of 10 billion or

:23:31.:23:33.

so a year, you don't get too prerecession levels of debt until

:23:34.:23:39.

the mid 2030s. The argument the Chancellor would make the running a

:23:40.:23:43.

surplus year after year is that even if you just run a balanced budget,

:23:44.:23:55.

it takes quite a lot of time just to undo the damage that the crisis did.

:23:56.:24:00.

Joining me now from Glasgow is the Shadow Work and Pensions

:24:01.:24:03.

Owen Smith, in his resignation letter, Iain Duncan Smith says it is

:24:04.:24:15.

now time to look at ending the protection of pensions. Do you agree

:24:16.:24:19.

with that? I don't think that should be the first thing they look at at

:24:20.:24:24.

all, Andrew. I think the very clear message that Iain Duncan Smith

:24:25.:24:26.

himself has delivered is their word choices that could have been made in

:24:27.:24:30.

the budget, and the Chancellor made them and he made the wrong ones

:24:31.:24:33.

coming chose to cut the benefits from disabled people. As we have

:24:34.:24:39.

heard, the PIP cuts taking many thousands of pounds away from the

:24:40.:24:43.

370,000 people, and instead he chose that he was going to cut corporation

:24:44.:24:49.

tax, which he -- is going to benefit large countries in this country, and

:24:50.:24:53.

he chose to cut capital gains tax, which were largely benefit people

:24:54.:24:57.

who have got a bit of money. So I think there were different changes

:24:58.:24:59.

he could have made even within the terms of this budget that would have

:25:00.:25:07.

been much fairer. I understand that, but which are nevertheless have

:25:08.:25:11.

thinks it the benefits? -- ring fenced? We need to look at all these

:25:12.:25:21.

things long-term, but it would be for a Labour government when we get

:25:22.:25:26.

closer to the next election to the absolute specifics on all of those

:25:27.:25:30.

pension benefits, but by and large, let's be clear. The last Labour

:25:31.:25:34.

government worked incredibly hard to raise pensioners out of poverty. We

:25:35.:25:39.

were incredibly successful in that regard, a million pensioners lifted

:25:40.:25:42.

out of poverty under the last Labour government and I don't think they

:25:43.:25:44.

ought to be the target for cuts, just as I don't believe that

:25:45.:25:48.

disabled people ought to be. There are myriad other choices the

:25:49.:25:52.

government could have taken. Iain Duncan Smith today I think has been

:25:53.:25:56.

very honest in explaining how George Osborne could have taken different

:25:57.:25:59.

choices, should have done, and in his words he is dividing Britain,

:26:00.:26:05.

moving away from any notion of us all being in it together. But you

:26:06.:26:17.

are committed to balancing current spending, but if you have ring

:26:18.:26:22.

fenced pensions, as you have told us this morning, presumably you would

:26:23.:26:26.

ring fence the NHS, or even add to spending in the NHS, and you want to

:26:27.:26:30.

ring fence nearly all of welfare as well. Where do the cuts come from

:26:31.:26:36.

the balance current spending? I have just given you two, let's be very

:26:37.:26:42.

specific, Labour would be saying today if it were our budget, that we

:26:43.:26:46.

would not have done the cuts to corporation tax, that would have

:26:47.:26:51.

given us in year ?600 million, and we would not have done the cut to

:26:52.:26:54.

capital gains tax, that would give us another ?600 million. That nets

:26:55.:27:01.

off the PIP cuts annually, the ?1.2 billion, and there are other similar

:27:02.:27:06.

choices we could look at. We would not have taken corporation tax back

:27:07.:27:11.

to 19%. We would have been taking far more from large multinational

:27:12.:27:14.

companies than this government is. So far you have given me 1.2

:27:15.:27:18.

billion, but you have announced much more than that in spending plans. So

:27:19.:27:24.

I am not quite clear how it is you would balance current spending,

:27:25.:27:28.

because I think we can both agree an extra 1.2 billion went to do it,

:27:29.:27:34.

will it? No, but a corporation tax alone by 2020 would be giving us

:27:35.:27:40.

?2.5 billion, if we were to revert back to the April 2015 rate of 20%.

:27:41.:27:46.

We would still have a corporation tax in this country that was 10%

:27:47.:27:50.

lower than Germany, 15% lower than America, 10% lower than Australia.

:27:51.:27:54.

It would be an extremely competitive rate of tax. I just highlight that

:27:55.:28:01.

?1 billion example, ?3 billion example, how we would make different

:28:02.:28:05.

choices. Right, but as I say, in many of your spending plans you have

:28:06.:28:10.

already spent that sort of money. You also talk about fair taxes, you

:28:11.:28:14.

would not cut the corporation tax any further, what else to you mean

:28:15.:28:19.

by fair taxes? What would you raise by fair taxes? As I said a minute

:28:20.:28:26.

ago, we can't for years out from a budget before, a pre-election budget

:28:27.:28:32.

from Labour, tell you precisely what all of our spending plans will be, I

:28:33.:28:36.

don't think that is a reasonable thing to ask any opposition

:28:37.:28:38.

government to do but I think we are setting very clear indicators about

:28:39.:28:49.

what we think the benefits would be. Give us another example. It is

:28:50.:28:57.

reflective of our belief that those who have the largest amounts of

:28:58.:28:59.

money ought to bear the largest burden in our society. It is unclear

:29:00.:29:08.

whether that raises you very much. The government's own analysis showed

:29:09.:29:13.

there was ?3 billion forgone in cutting that top rate of tax. I now

:29:14.:29:16.

see they are trying to argue they have somehow applied a famous curve

:29:17.:29:24.

and ?8 billion they have made. I think corporation tax shows you very

:29:25.:29:27.

clearly, corporation tax receipts have been flat, they have managed to

:29:28.:29:33.

cut from 28% to 20% in the last six years, and the amount of receipts we

:29:34.:29:40.

are getting in has gone from 43 billion to 43 billion. Investment

:29:41.:29:41.

has decreased. What are used to call sickness

:29:42.:29:51.

benefit comes to over 50 billion pounds a year. You would leave it

:29:52.:29:56.

untouched? No, we want to reform the system. Take for example, Iain

:29:57.:30:01.

Duncan Smith made a lot about universal credit this morning. He

:30:02.:30:06.

has said George Osborne has stripped out the guts of universal credit. I

:30:07.:30:13.

was asking about disability? Some people who are disabled will be in

:30:14.:30:15.

receipt of universal credit. What would you do about the disability 50

:30:16.:30:22.

billion pounds annual budget? We wouldn't be making the changes the

:30:23.:30:29.

current government are proposing. They are lying to the British public

:30:30.:30:33.

about this, spending on the disabled is increasing. If you take all

:30:34.:30:42.

disability benefits, I am publishing figures today that say it has

:30:43.:30:46.

declined around 60% that the government have already cut disabled

:30:47.:30:54.

benefits. -- 6%. That will not be my target. Would you keep this increase

:30:55.:30:57.

in the threshold for people who enter the 40% tax bracket? Yes, we

:30:58.:31:03.

would keep that. It is fair to say the fiscal drag of people being

:31:04.:31:09.

pulled into the 40p rate has been increasing. I think we will need to

:31:10.:31:14.

reform taxation much more fundamentally. I still think the key

:31:15.:31:18.

thing today is we have got to understand George Osborne is the man

:31:19.:31:23.

in the dock. I am going to have to stop you there. We look forward to

:31:24.:31:27.

talking to you in the future about your plans for tax reform. Now let's

:31:28.:31:35.

go to the Conservative MP who has spearheaded the back bench

:31:36.:31:42.

opposition to George Osborne's tax cuts. Was a Iain Duncan Smith right

:31:43.:31:49.

to resign? He was coming he had reached a point where he had had

:31:50.:31:54.

enough of the purse strings being pulled so he couldn't deliver the

:31:55.:31:58.

welfare reform he wanted to. He had no option. Mr Cameron says he is

:31:59.:32:05.

puzzled by the resignation and the position of the government on these

:32:06.:32:08.

welfare reforms and cuts had been collectively agreed. I am learning,

:32:09.:32:17.

I am still a relatively new MP. You can keep your powder dry for so

:32:18.:32:20.

long, you are convinced by the whips that this is the right thing to do.

:32:21.:32:26.

Your conscience will kick in, it did for me last year over tax credits.

:32:27.:32:30.

The rumblings are more open this year than they were last year over

:32:31.:32:33.

The rumblings are more open this tax credits. Iain Duncan Smith

:32:34.:32:38.

looked around him and saw many MP is saying how unhappy they were and he

:32:39.:32:41.

couldn't proceed any longer. Would you have been one of the rebels if

:32:42.:32:45.

the government had proceeded with what was in the budget for the

:32:46.:32:50.

disability payments? Absolutely, I would have been. Iain Duncan Smith,

:32:51.:32:56.

perhaps under Treasury pressure over the years has presided over a number

:32:57.:33:03.

of cuts to welfare. Now he is resigning over a cut that isn't

:33:04.:33:07.

going to happen, as far as we can make out. What is the logic in that?

:33:08.:33:14.

The first thing to say, I cannot say the certain it wouldn't have

:33:15.:33:18.

happened. I have had no letter or e-mail coming from the Treasury

:33:19.:33:20.

saying we will be looking at it again. A lot of what has been cut

:33:21.:33:28.

from Iain Duncan Smith's point of view, so the tax credit taper rate,

:33:29.:33:36.

universal taper rate, PIP, it has been coming thick and fast. He has

:33:37.:33:41.

had to deliver what it was revolutionary welfare reforms. He

:33:42.:33:45.

wanted to do them the right way. Everything I talked about in my

:33:46.:33:51.

maiden speech about doing it gently and allowing the minimum wage to

:33:52.:33:56.

rise. The Treasury whole the purse strings and they stopped him

:33:57.:33:58.

delivering the policies the way he wanted to. Given what happened to

:33:59.:34:04.

tax credits, which was a move to take away some welfare benefits from

:34:05.:34:09.

the working poor, is it not puzzling the Chancellor then moved in to an

:34:10.:34:15.

even more difficult group to deal with, in terms of taking things

:34:16.:34:20.

away, into the disabled and seem to have learned nothing from the tax

:34:21.:34:27.

credit U turn? I guess we will see in the days and weeks to come. It is

:34:28.:34:34.

not just PIP, you will remember the extra payment given to claimants who

:34:35.:34:40.

had been ill for a long time and were returning to work. I voted

:34:41.:34:44.

against that also. I hope Stephen Crabb, the new Secretary of State

:34:45.:34:47.

will have a conversation with the Treasury and this will be brought to

:34:48.:34:50.

the table. We have made some poor decisions. Some of the areas of

:34:51.:34:55.

taxation we have opted for instead, are wrong. It doesn't send the right

:34:56.:34:59.

message that as a Conservative Party we can look after everybody in

:35:00.:35:03.

society. It is only the Conservatives who can, because we do

:35:04.:35:06.

need the strong economy to deliver any of this. But it has got to come

:35:07.:35:14.

back to the table and we have got to start again. Is it your view it

:35:15.:35:18.

wouldn't be enough just to tinker with what the government was

:35:19.:35:20.

planning to do with the personal mobility independent payments and do

:35:21.:35:24.

what it did with tax credits, which was to scrap what it was planning to

:35:25.:35:33.

do and start again? I have spoken to a lot of disability charities. I am

:35:34.:35:39.

putting myself through and Mark PIP assessment because I want to feel

:35:40.:35:45.

what it is like. It just doesn't work that so many groups of ill and

:35:46.:35:50.

disabled people. Tinkering with two tiny point isn't good enough. We

:35:51.:35:53.

need to look at the whole process and start from scratch and work with

:35:54.:35:59.

these charities, who understand the pressures put on these people so we

:36:00.:36:03.

have a system that works for them. Your party is in open warfare this

:36:04.:36:08.

morning, you have a resignation and people are referring to you as the

:36:09.:36:13.

nasty party. How big a crisis is this for the Conservatives? I have

:36:14.:36:18.

been thinking about this this morning. I am trying to keep my own

:36:19.:36:27.

wooden spoon in my kitchen drawer. I think, in a funny sort of way,

:36:28.:36:32.

because there has been so much focus on the EU, this might lead the sense

:36:33.:36:37.

check we need. All MPs are good people trying to do the best they

:36:38.:36:41.

can. This could be the slap to the face we all need that says hang on,

:36:42.:36:46.

get back together and sort ourselves out. We are the party that should be

:36:47.:36:49.

looking after people. In fact, I think it could bring us together. If

:36:50.:36:55.

you are to be brought together for a fresh start from tax credit to

:36:56.:37:00.

disability payments, is George Osborne still the right Chancellor

:37:01.:37:04.

to do it? It depends how he responds to the challenge. I am hoping so.

:37:05.:37:16.

The jury is still out? Yes. Are his chances to be Prime Minister below

:37:17.:37:23.

the water line? Sometimes the strength of a man is how he picks

:37:24.:37:27.

himself up from a fall. So let's see how he responds. If this is

:37:28.:37:32.

attempted to be brushed under the carpet, I think his chances are

:37:33.:37:36.

over. If he lets himself up and shows he is listening, making

:37:37.:37:40.

mistakes is OK, providing you correct them before they affect

:37:41.:37:44.

people. He did that with tax credits. Some ways it was a big

:37:45.:37:48.

thing because it would have affected millions and millions of people. But

:37:49.:37:55.

we need to wait and see what he is going to do with this. Your wooden

:37:56.:38:00.

spoon is always welcome on this programme.

:38:01.:38:08.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:38:09.:38:10.

Kezia Dugdale tells Labour conference delegates

:38:11.:38:15.

that the Holyrood poll is not a "foregone conclusion",

:38:16.:38:18.

as she faces her toughest ever electoral challenge.

:38:19.:38:25.

What difference will a city deal make to Inverness?

:38:26.:38:27.

The Chancellor is expected to make an announcement within days.

:38:28.:38:29.

MSPs back in 1999 - we'll talk to some of those

:38:30.:38:32.

who are standing down from the Scottish Parliament.

:38:33.:38:41.

Iain Duncan Smith, who was, until his resignation on

:38:42.:38:43.

Friday night, the Work and Pensions Secretary, has confronted criticism

:38:44.:38:45.

about his resignation, insisting it was a matter

:38:46.:38:47.

of principle based on his concerns about welfare reform.

:38:48.:38:52.

He told Andrew Marr this morning that his decision has nothing to do

:38:53.:38:56.

with Europe and everything to do with cuts to the welfare budget,

:38:57.:38:59.

while health and pensions are ring-fenced.

:39:00.:39:03.

Senior ministers insist Mr Duncan Smith had previously

:39:04.:39:05.

Yesterday the party's Scottish leader, Ruth Davidson,

:39:06.:39:14.

said there had been some "short-termism" in the Chancellor's

:39:15.:39:16.

plans to cut personal independence payments.

:39:17.:39:21.

I think the Conservative worked really hard over the years to

:39:22.:39:27.

try to reform welfare. It is a thorny issue. We have worked hard to

:39:28.:39:33.

get people back into work. More than 2 million people are in jobs than

:39:34.:39:37.

they were before. But we cannot let short-term cuts and do all of that

:39:38.:39:41.

good work. I am pleased the government is looking again at

:39:42.:39:45.

changes and I think the new secretary is exactly the amount take

:39:46.:39:52.

forward. -- the man to take that forward.

:39:53.:39:53.

Joining me now is the Scottish Political Editor

:39:54.:39:55.

at the Sunday Herald, Tom Gordon, and the writer and journalist

:39:56.:39:57.

David Torrance, who's in our London studio.

:39:58.:39:59.

We heard there that Tory backbenchers aren't exactly rushing

:40:00.:40:07.

out to support George Osborne. It is a completely open season. I never

:40:08.:40:11.

thought he had much of a chance of ever becoming the Conservative

:40:12.:40:16.

leader. He always seems too cold and rectally. Now he has a Syria record

:40:17.:40:21.

of failure behind him. There is no way the Conservative Party will put

:40:22.:40:26.

him at the helm. I also think that it is difficult for Ruth Davidson.

:40:27.:40:31.

She has set her party a very specific goal of becoming the

:40:32.:40:35.

official opposition, overtaking Labour. I think this argument about

:40:36.:40:39.

taking away from the disabled reminds a lot of swing voters why

:40:40.:40:43.

they do not vote Conservative. This is a party that is perceived as

:40:44.:40:49.

pampering the rich and punishing the poor. -- reptilian and cold. The

:40:50.:40:59.

important thing is that what the government wants to do about these

:41:00.:41:04.

cuts. It appears from David Cameron's letter to IDS that they

:41:05.:41:12.

may not go ahead. So you wonder what the point of all this was. Was it

:41:13.:41:19.

all meant to cause damage? And indirectly lead to resignations and

:41:20.:41:22.

generate bad headlines. All of this highlights that David Cameron has

:41:23.:41:26.

for a long time papered over the cracks within his party. And has

:41:27.:41:32.

exposed them as looking quite shambolic. And I think, more

:41:33.:41:39.

broadly, what you have is tension a more strategic, considered approach

:41:40.:41:44.

by Iain Duncan Smith, who is not ambitious. He has been leader of the

:41:45.:41:49.

party. He was not seeking greater advancement. And others have said he

:41:50.:42:00.

is a more -- has a more -- a more short-term approach from the

:42:01.:42:07.

Chancellor. If clever is screwing up several budget and not becoming

:42:08.:42:10.

leader, I think I would go with Iain Duncan Smith. Do you think that his

:42:11.:42:22.

chances of becoming Prime Minister have been shot? He had his

:42:23.:42:26.

omnishambles budget. He publicly have been shot? He had his

:42:27.:42:32.

floated pension reforms, which were not carried out. And now this. There

:42:33.:42:38.

is a pattern there. As Tom has said, and judging from today's quotes, it

:42:39.:42:45.

does seem extremely unlikely that Osborne will become the next leader.

:42:46.:42:48.

There are even suggestions that he won't even put his name forward. Who

:42:49.:42:57.

is your favourite? I think anyone who knows the Conservative Party

:42:58.:43:01.

history knows that whoever becomes leader is never expected. That was

:43:02.:43:05.

true of David Cameron, true Iain Duncan Smith and further back it was

:43:06.:43:07.

true of Margaret Thatcher. I think a Duncan Smith and further back it was

:43:08.:43:10.

figure will emerge that isn't Duncan Smith and further back it was

:43:11.:43:13.

necessarily being discussed at the moment. I don't think it will be

:43:14.:43:17.

Boris Johnson either. Tom Gordon, you were saying this could be bad

:43:18.:43:22.

for the Tories in Scotland with an election coming up. I think the

:43:23.:43:26.

other way you could play it is to say that this was short termism, as

:43:27.:43:31.

Ruth Davidson hinted. But we are not doing it. This shows that the

:43:32.:43:36.

Conservative Party, far from being the heartless, hated Tories,

:43:37.:43:43.

responds to people. MPs have said that, you know, our voters like

:43:44.:43:50.

cutting welfare, but not taking away from the disabled. How are they

:43:51.:43:55.

going to do it? I don't think that is what she was saying. She said

:43:56.:44:00.

sought termism was bad. Most people think that. The point about the PIP

:44:01.:44:08.

changes were that they were narrow. The money was going to go down and

:44:09.:44:13.

stay down. This was not a short-term cut. The point is that that can now

:44:14.:44:25.

be pinned on George Osborne. But from David Cameron's letter to Iain

:44:26.:44:29.

Duncan Smith, that is not the case. They may come back from it. They

:44:30.:44:36.

might find cuts from elsewhere in the budget. That doesn't necessarily

:44:37.:44:42.

mean the disabled and low paid will be safe. Or would see their money

:44:43.:44:46.

affected at all. George Osborne coming had his omnishambles budget.

:44:47.:44:58.

This was the instashambles budget. Ruth Davidson has to come out and

:44:59.:45:13.

realise this is a bad budget. Instashambles. What about the

:45:14.:45:18.

broader budget. Let's see David Cameron loses the EU referendum, it

:45:19.:45:26.

might become so. It would only need IDS to say he was wrong onto welfare

:45:27.:45:28.

and Europe, he is not fit to be IDS to say he was wrong onto welfare

:45:29.:45:32.

Prime Minister. It is not the same, IDS to say he was wrong onto welfare

:45:33.:45:35.

because David Cameron will not be Prime Minister in a year or so. Even

:45:36.:45:41.

if he wins the referendum, he says he will stand down and would contest

:45:42.:45:46.

the next election. If he loses, it won't take a critical comment from

:45:47.:45:50.

Iain Duncan Smith to push him out. He wore me is pretty quickly off his

:45:51.:45:55.

own accord. And it shows you that referendums are subject to the law

:45:56.:45:59.

of unintended consequences. Once you open this Pandora's box... I think

:46:00.:46:06.

the Prime Minister was perfectly right to do so. It is difficult to

:46:07.:46:10.

control the political dynamic afterwards. We have seen that. In

:46:11.:46:16.

terms of external and internal party politics and, as I suggested a long,

:46:17.:46:23.

long papered over cracks at every level. -- suggested earlier. Thank

:46:24.:46:28.

you. Kezia Dugdale was in a confident

:46:29.:46:29.

mood yesterday as she told delegates that Labour would end

:46:30.:46:32.

austerity in Scotland. She pledged to use the Scottish

:46:33.:46:34.

Parliament's new powers to raise taxes to mitigate billions of pounds

:46:35.:46:36.

of Tory cuts and threw down a challenge to the SNP

:46:37.:46:39.

to do the same. Her comments came as the latest poll

:46:40.:46:42.

indicated Labour could fall into third place behind the Tories

:46:43.:46:44.

in the May election. Our reporter Andrew Black

:46:45.:46:47.

was at the conference and sent us This summer, get ready for an epic

:46:48.:47:01.

clash of the Titans. As Labour prepares to take on the SNP in the

:47:02.:47:07.

ultimate battle for supremacy. Scottish Labour is facing one of its

:47:08.:47:13.

toughest challenges yet. At last year 's Westminster election, the

:47:14.:47:16.

party was all but wiped out. Now they are hoping that just a Frome

:47:17.:47:21.

months from the Scottish election, they can avoid history repeating

:47:22.:47:25.

itself. They beheld its spring conference this weekend in a cinema

:47:26.:47:31.

in Glasgow, were helped to -- hoped to rally as much support. Will it be

:47:32.:47:36.

a tale of triumph for the underdog, or will it turn out to be a disaster

:47:37.:47:40.

movie? After things got underway, the conference began its search for

:47:41.:47:45.

the big idea, although, with the election in May, there's not a huge

:47:46.:47:49.

amount of time left to come up with it. One delegate used the occasion

:47:50.:47:53.

to get into the spirit of his surroundings. I have another

:47:54.:48:00.

persona, which I intend to reveal here and now for the first time to

:48:01.:48:06.

conference, I am also... Labour cap conference, I am also... Labour cap

:48:07.:48:25.

-- Labour Man! Alan Johnson came to see why Britain should stay in the

:48:26.:48:34.

UK. Kos our future is brighter in the EU then it is in splendid

:48:35.:48:39.

isolation. That is why I need you to join me and Kent -- Kezia Dugdale.

:48:40.:48:54.

Not everyone wanted to stay in. If you are in favour of a Leave vote,

:48:55.:48:57.

that doesn't make you an extremist. It doesn't put you on the fringes of

:48:58.:49:03.

politics, you in the centre. That is that is what is being considered,

:49:04.:49:06.

politics, you in the centre. That is contemplative by ordinary voters.

:49:07.:49:09.

Even if the politicians think it is too extreme and too out there, that

:49:10.:49:14.

is not what is reflected in the population. They want to be

:49:15.:49:19.

convinced in both directions, at the moment, everything is to play for.

:49:20.:49:24.

And then it was time for the main feature presentation. Kezia Dugdale

:49:25.:49:32.

the movie. In full 3-D. She dismissed the idea that the S NP had

:49:33.:49:39.

already won. People say it is a foregone conclusion is no interest

:49:40.:49:50.

in this campaign. They couldn't be more wrong. She talked about

:49:51.:49:55.

building council houses and ending austerity.

:49:56.:50:04.

I have no intention of making it easy for the SNP macro. Join me and

:50:05.:50:12.

this party can do again what we have always done at our best. Challenge

:50:13.:50:18.

the establishment, overturned the status quo, deliver real change now.

:50:19.:50:27.

Thank you. So, will that be enough for ultimate big today? We will know

:50:28.:50:31.

in May. Joining me now is Labour MSP

:50:32.:50:35.

Jackie Baillie, Shadow Spokesperson on Public Services

:50:36.:50:38.

and Wealth Creation. Kezia Dugdale says she wants to end

:50:39.:50:51.

austerity. Are you saying the penny tax rise you propose plus returning

:50:52.:50:57.

the top rate to 50p is sufficient to do that? We have looked at all the

:50:58.:51:03.

public finances available to Scotland, the new powers coming to

:51:04.:51:07.

Scotland, and we made the pledge. Having looked at that we would not

:51:08.:51:12.

continue the conveyor belt of austerity represented by the Tory

:51:13.:51:17.

policies. Are the tax rises you propose sufficient to do that? Yes,

:51:18.:51:22.

we've look and we find the detail when you announced the policy during

:51:23.:51:26.

the course of the next few weeks, you will see quite clearly where

:51:27.:51:31.

that money comes from, a combination of tax rises, borrowing powers, all

:51:32.:51:34.

that and we will set it out in detail. It is a pledge to end Tory

:51:35.:51:41.

austerity, to use the powers the Parliament now has. Let me quote you

:51:42.:51:45.

something Kezia Dugdale said, the pledge to end austerity won't be

:51:46.:51:50.

respective about what is spent it will set out the path that must be

:51:51.:51:55.

followed in order to dispense with austerity, what does that mean? In

:51:56.:52:02.

normal circumstances we know what the Scottish Government spending

:52:03.:52:04.

plans are, the UK Government spending plans are, we have a stark

:52:05.:52:10.

calculations on those and set out quite clearly the additional tax

:52:11.:52:14.

measures we have it in place. What do you need to be prospective about

:52:15.:52:19.

spending? Say it is a deep recession we enter into, nobody wants that to

:52:20.:52:24.

happen. You need the flexibility to respond to that soak, Alistair

:52:25.:52:28.

Darling when he was last Chancellor made the cut to VAT and we want to

:52:29.:52:33.

ensure his Mrs and the economy can be responded to. Your are, in

:52:34.:52:39.

effect, saying to voters in Scotland we are going to put your taxes up in

:52:40.:52:43.

order to spend more money on the public spec but we are not that

:52:44.:52:48.

bothered about what the money is spent on. That is not the case at

:52:49.:52:55.

all. If you look at our proposal for having a 50p top rate, that is

:52:56.:53:00.

entirely going to go on to education for a fairer stark fund so there is

:53:01.:53:08.

?1000 going pear child... I am not saying you have not outlined things

:53:09.:53:12.

you want to do with the money but you have not even respect truth

:53:13.:53:17.

about the next government spend. You are telling people of Scotland that

:53:18.:53:23.

taxes are going up but what UK and about as the Labour Party is putting

:53:24.:53:27.

taxes up and spending more money in the public sector rather than what

:53:28.:53:31.

the money is spent on. We said we care about what the people of

:53:32.:53:35.

Scotland care about. We said we would protect health services and

:53:36.:53:40.

education. This in a sense protect all of our public services that

:53:41.:53:43.

people care about in real terms. That is just another way of saying

:53:44.:53:49.

we will put your taxes up to spend on the public sector but we do not

:53:50.:53:52.

care what we spend it on. That is not the case. A ?500 million cut

:53:53.:53:58.

that would predominantly fall in education, if you care about the

:53:59.:54:03.

economy, about education in the country going, you invest in

:54:04.:54:08.

education. That ?500 million cut would have limited our aspiration as

:54:09.:54:11.

a country and we did not want to make that choice. My point is, there

:54:12.:54:17.

is also a basic point about ending austerity. Absolutely. During the

:54:18.:54:25.

financial class in Economist thought about ending austerity. He meant

:54:26.:54:26.

financial class in Economist thought government should talk about

:54:27.:54:30.

borrowing money and pump it into the economy in order to raise the man.

:54:31.:54:36.

He did not mean put taxes up to dispense more on the public sector,

:54:37.:54:39.

that has nothing to do with ending austerity. The choice we face in the

:54:40.:54:45.

Scottish Parliament is to use the new powers we have got or not. There

:54:46.:54:50.

is a basic point here, putting people's taxes up is adding to

:54:51.:54:54.

austerity, not taking away from it. I do not believe it is adding to

:54:55.:55:00.

austerity and here's why. Our investment would actually be in

:55:01.:55:04.

education and if you want to grow the economy and create additional

:55:05.:55:08.

wealth one of the key things you do is invest in our people, the

:55:09.:55:12.

education and everything else. I understand that but it want to have

:55:13.:55:17.

an argument and say money spent on education in the long-term pumping

:55:18.:55:22.

demand into the economy is more, raising taxes has less of an effect,

:55:23.:55:27.

I will concede the point to you but you're not borrowing money to pump

:55:28.:55:30.

into the economy, your extra spending is offset right putting

:55:31.:55:37.

people's taxes up and in terms of ending austerity, that is not an end

:55:38.:55:40.

to austerity it is merely shuffling it about. We are not shuffling it

:55:41.:55:46.

about, let me assure you. By investing in education you start to

:55:47.:55:50.

create the conditions for growing the economy. We have funds to build

:55:51.:55:57.

60,000 affordable homes, that is investment in construction that

:55:58.:56:00.

contributes to growing GDP and growing the economy. That might be

:56:01.:56:04.

fantastic but does not get you down the basic point that putting

:56:05.:56:08.

fantastic but does not get you down people's taxes up is by definition

:56:09.:56:12.

sucking demand out of the economy. It may be that all your investment

:56:13.:56:15.

demands are just wonderful but you cannot they macro it has anything to

:56:16.:56:20.

do with ending austerity. But they do because we will take the choices

:56:21.:56:25.

that makes cuts that the SNP and Tories are currently doing. We would

:56:26.:56:29.

invest in the country and invest in the country in the future. That is

:56:30.:56:33.

the choice facing people at this election, do they want to invest in

:56:34.:56:37.

the future or do they want a conveyor belt of cuts coming to the

:56:38.:56:41.

Scottish Parliament? You say a conveyor belt of cuts but according

:56:42.:56:47.

to the latest figures Labour made a song and dance about, according to

:56:48.:56:50.

those figures in Scotland we already spend 12 Wi-Fi has sent more of

:56:51.:56:55.

public money for every person who lives here and as a proportion of

:56:56.:57:00.

GDP, if you exclude oil revenues which I am sure you would be more

:57:01.:57:07.

than happy to do, we spent 8% of Scottish GDP more as the UK spends

:57:08.:57:11.

as a percentage of UK GDP on public services yet you are telling people

:57:12.:57:15.

in Scotland despite the fact we already spend all that extra money,

:57:16.:57:19.

our taxes have to go up to spend even more on the public sector

:57:20.:57:23.

without people in England's taxes do not have to go up. Devolution allows

:57:24.:57:30.

us to make different choices. We have our to do things differently in

:57:31.:57:35.

Scotland. The cuts that have even visited on us by the SNP and the

:57:36.:57:41.

Tories have 10% in the past in education, 16% in the future, will

:57:42.:57:45.

substantially damage this country and our economy. We are choosing to

:57:46.:57:53.

do things differently. It is widely recognised, I think, that the

:57:54.:57:56.

education system in England has done rather well over the last decade or

:57:57.:58:00.

so. It caught up hats with Scotland and perhaps in some areas has

:58:01.:58:04.

overtaken it. Nicola Sturgeon is talking about copying the London

:58:05.:58:10.

challenge which had such a dramatic effect on education the. We spend 12

:58:11.:58:16.

sent more per capita and you are saying we have to spend even more in

:58:17.:58:20.

order to help the education system. These changes in England were not

:58:21.:58:23.

order to help the education system. achieved high throwing money at the

:58:24.:58:26.

problem. It is all about spending money better and I agree with that

:58:27.:58:32.

point out what we have seen the SNP preside over is 14,000 teachers in

:58:33.:58:38.

our classrooms, 152,000 fewer places at colleges, that is not about

:58:39.:58:41.

investing in the country and young people in future so we need to make

:58:42.:58:46.

sure we do that. England did it while they were cutting budgets. I

:58:47.:58:51.

want to make sure we have the best possible education system, health

:58:52.:58:55.

service in this country. You do not achieve that by cutting budgets.

:58:56.:58:59.

service in this country. You do not lot of people watching this will say

:59:00.:59:04.

it is the same old Labour Party, the party of tax and spend, they want to

:59:05.:59:08.

spend more money on public services because it protects the people who

:59:09.:59:12.

vote for them and for ordinary people in Scotland, why do I have to

:59:13.:59:17.

pay more tax, they will say, when England does not? If you are

:59:18.:59:21.

ambitious and aspirational for this country then actually unique to

:59:22.:59:26.

invest in the right things. We do not think cutting education is the

:59:27.:59:31.

right thing to do. We are rejecting Tory austerity because we think it

:59:32.:59:35.

damages the country. There is a choice that affects people in

:59:36.:59:38.

Scotland, do you want to invest in the future or do you want more cuts

:59:39.:59:45.

from the Tories and the SNP? Thank you very much indeed.

:59:46.:59:48.

Among the less controversial announcements of the

:59:49.:59:50.

Chancellor's Budget was the latest tranche of city deals.

:59:51.:59:52.

These are intended as a funding mechanism to promote growth

:59:53.:59:54.

and improve infrastructure, with funds provided by Westminster

:59:55.:59:56.

and Holyrood, and which unlock wider access to finance

:59:57.:59:58.

George Osborne didn't mention Inverness in his speech,

:59:59.:00:01.

but it's believed that the deal will be announced this week.

:00:02.:00:04.

Our reporter Craig Anderson explains what it will mean

:00:05.:00:06.

It is imposing red sandstone walls that completely dominate the

:00:07.:00:21.

Inveresk skyline. It attracts thousands of duty is to list every

:00:22.:00:25.

year but the only way they are getting through these doors is by

:00:26.:00:31.

breaking the law. Inverness Castle is home to the city's Sheriff Court.

:00:32.:00:38.

The castle complex was all around the time Queen Victoria came to the

:00:39.:00:41.

throne but a major redevelopment into a top-flight tourist attraction

:00:42.:00:46.

is now on the cards and the City Deal could provide the millions of

:00:47.:00:52.

pounds needed for the beaver. The evening culture, cafe culture,

:00:53.:00:56.

restaurant culture is superb but during the day there is nothing to

:00:57.:00:59.

do. The leather is underdeveloped, everything is underdeveloped in

:01:00.:01:04.

terms of attracting visitors to Inverness. Something needs to be

:01:05.:01:07.

done and the City Deal is our opportunity. With contributions from

:01:08.:01:12.

Westminster and Holyrood government and from the Highland Council the

:01:13.:01:18.

catch pot could extend to ?300 million. As well as the castle

:01:19.:01:23.

conversion is to be an international standard sports and leisure hub

:01:24.:01:27.

containing a velodrome and conference centre. Other ideas

:01:28.:01:32.

include tarting up Inverness city centre and relieving traffic

:01:33.:01:35.

congestion with the transport infrastructure. In terms of the

:01:36.:01:43.

Pinch point we have got with infrastructure we are a victim of

:01:44.:01:46.

our own success. Things that have been talked about for decades now we

:01:47.:01:50.

really need to see them coming through. I believe the funding

:01:51.:01:54.

through the City Deal will help bring those projects to fruition.

:01:55.:01:59.

Earlier this year the Prime Minister announced the details of the ?250

:02:00.:02:04.

million city region deal for Aberdeen which will fund the

:02:05.:02:07.

creation of an oil and gas technology Centre to help the alias

:02:08.:02:10.

transition from an operations based to a hub for the trolley research

:02:11.:02:15.

and development. The cash will also support emerging industries and key

:02:16.:02:20.

transport infrastructure and, it is hoped, reeling billions in private

:02:21.:02:26.

investment. The City Deal can lead to other money which might total ?2

:02:27.:02:33.

billion from other public sector sources in the private sector. I

:02:34.:02:36.

believe it is going to make a real difference. The Inverness City Deal

:02:37.:02:41.

had been trailed heavily last week by the Scottish Secretary. It is

:02:42.:02:48.

no-show in the Chancellor 's budget deal on Wednesday has led some to

:02:49.:02:52.

believe it might not happen on will emerge substantially watered down.

:02:53.:02:55.

In the current climate I do not think they are likely to find

:02:56.:02:58.

funding for many of these projects if the City Deal does not cover them

:02:59.:03:02.

because capital spending is constrained as well as a two-day

:03:03.:03:07.

revenue spending by all the austerity we have at the moment. For

:03:08.:03:12.

these kind of projects if the City Deal doesn't come along and it is

:03:13.:03:16.

highly unlikely they will ever happen. The Westminster government

:03:17.:03:20.

dismisses any conspiracy theories and insists an announcement is

:03:21.:03:24.

imminent at it will have two B before Thursday because that's when

:03:25.:03:29.

the period again is an advance of the Scottish Parliament elections.

:03:30.:03:31.

As the say, watch this space. In 2014, the UK and Scottish

:03:32.:03:35.

governments agreed a City Deal with the eight local authorities

:03:36.:03:38.

covering Glasgow and Clyde Valley. I'm joined by the former leader

:03:39.:03:41.

of Glasgow City Council, Gordon Matheson, who's

:03:42.:03:43.

about to become visiting professor at Strathclyde University's

:03:44.:03:45.

Institute for Future Cities. The Glasgow one, leaders mode

:03:46.:03:57.

experience of that than anywhere else in Scotland, by and large, has

:03:58.:04:05.

it worked? Yes, it has. We kind of rogue the mould really. We're

:04:06.:04:09.

Glasgow has led its great to see other cities in Scotland are

:04:10.:04:13.

following. It is about achieving economic growth. The Glasgow City

:04:14.:04:17.

Deal will grow the economy by 4% which will add 4.2 billion to

:04:18.:04:25.

Glasgow 's economy and critically create 15,000 construction jobs plus

:04:26.:04:27.

29,000 permanent new jobs. create 15,000 construction jobs plus

:04:28.:04:31.

all this talk and it is all Georgian, of leveraging that you put

:04:32.:04:37.

up some public money and get the equivalent or more, has that

:04:38.:04:41.

happened in Glasgow? Yes, it is happening. The City Deal is a 20

:04:42.:04:46.

year programme and in Glasgow 's case it will be done over ten years

:04:47.:04:50.

but to give you an example of how this is done, this might not sound

:04:51.:04:54.

particularly sexy but it makes an impact. It is a major investment

:04:55.:04:57.

going on in terms of Renee age across Glasgow which will create

:04:58.:05:03.

land that can be a lot on which will be built 20,000 new jobs. Are these

:05:04.:05:12.

Langfield sites? Yes, the amount of investment needed to the Kameni land

:05:13.:05:19.

across the Clyde waterfront means it would be prohibitive for private

:05:20.:05:23.

sector is to come in and invest. Is that public money or a mixture?

:05:24.:05:32.

We want to boost the tourism trade from the ships that come in and also

:05:33.:05:40.

to service offshore wind farms, right through Glasgow and North

:05:41.:05:44.

Lanarkshire. That is being funded by the public sector. But there is a

:05:45.:05:55.

times three leverage on that. The critical point... And the private

:05:56.:06:02.

sector would do what? Build houses? Yes. Also, in the case of

:06:03.:06:06.

Inverclyde, what they will do service offshore. It will enhance

:06:07.:06:11.

the tourism trade. What we are looking to do is to create the

:06:12.:06:15.

circumstances which allow for investment. That requires public

:06:16.:06:22.

sector investment for it to happen. Do you think it is important...? In

:06:23.:06:27.

Aberdeen, there is a focus, we will build a centre which will help

:06:28.:06:33.

change Aberdeen's history as North Sea oil into a future of oil and gas

:06:34.:06:37.

technology expertise. Is there something in Glasgow like that, that

:06:38.:06:43.

is a permanent change to the nature of the Glasgow economy? I think that

:06:44.:06:48.

our two. One is the change in terms of growth. To add ?2 million every

:06:49.:06:55.

year is a step change. It will also increase tax, taken by the

:06:56.:07:02.

government. It will create 29,000 new jobs. Another example is part of

:07:03.:07:08.

the city jail in Glasgow being supporting new business growth. In

:07:09.:07:14.

particular, years two and three. A lot of companies get support

:07:15.:07:22.

initially. What year are you in now? The first funding started in 2015.

:07:23.:07:27.

All the works in Glasgow will be over a 10-year period. There is

:07:28.:07:37.

another very good example, being employed by colleagues at Glasgow

:07:38.:07:39.

University. That involves bioscience, because there is a lot

:07:40.:07:45.

of insights into how precise medicine can become. Glasgow is

:07:46.:07:49.

leading the world on that. That's another example where, by investing

:07:50.:07:53.

publicly, you can create the circumstances that allow for future

:07:54.:07:58.

growth. I am going into dangerous territory here in asking a man from

:07:59.:08:03.

Glasgow to advise what should happen in Edinburgh. What you think should

:08:04.:08:09.

happen? I am delighted that what is happening in Glasgow is being

:08:10.:08:12.

emulated by other cities. I am delighted that Edinburgh is pursuing

:08:13.:08:18.

a City Deal. Also Dundee and Inverness. Some places already have

:08:19.:08:30.

city deals in place. You can also get the transfer of significant

:08:31.:08:35.

powers. It will not come of age if it simply transfers powers to

:08:36.:08:44.

powers. It will not come of age if Holyrood. Am I talking to be future

:08:45.:08:53.

mayor of Glasgow? I don't... But do you see the future of mayors? I see

:08:54.:09:00.

a future in governments, so the extra power that cities are required

:09:01.:09:06.

to build the economy is properly available. When Tony Blair was in

:09:07.:09:10.

power, there was talk of devolving things like social welfare,. That

:09:11.:09:17.

never really happened. Do you think there is a case for that? I think

:09:18.:09:24.

the definition of both functioning powers, in terms of different

:09:25.:09:33.

policy, because that is how the grow the economy and tackle inequalities.

:09:34.:09:41.

So subsidiarity is the word we all like to use. I like to talk about

:09:42.:09:47.

growth. And the way to do that is to get controlling powers out of

:09:48.:09:53.

Parliament is into city regions. All right. Thank you for joining

:09:54.:09:56.

Everything has to come to an end, sometime.

:09:57.:09:58.

That's as true of political careers as it is of everything else.

:09:59.:10:01.

Some will be ended in May by the voters.

:10:02.:10:03.

But there is a group of MSPs who are exiting

:10:04.:10:05.

retiring, gracefully, from public life,

:10:06.:10:07.

including some who were at Holyrood at the very beginning.

:10:08.:10:10.

Among the so-called 99 as, posing for posterity, Fiona McLeod from the

:10:11.:10:24.

SNP. I do solemnly and sincerely declare... But she is standing down,

:10:25.:10:32.

not contesting. That brings on a bout of the reminiscences. It kind

:10:33.:10:36.

of worries me that every memory I have thought has been about me

:10:37.:10:41.

crying in Parliament. And I am not a big baby, but it was things like

:10:42.:10:46.

when we introduced the vote for 16 and 17-year-olds for the referendum.

:10:47.:10:49.

When we passed the equal marriage bill. When we elected Nicola

:10:50.:10:55.

Sturgeon as the First Minister. And I thought, why did it make me cry?

:10:56.:11:00.

And it was because they were joyous occasions, things I had campaigned

:11:01.:11:06.

for all my life. Mary Scanlon was there, too. Now she has made her

:11:07.:11:14.

last speech in the chamber. She is also retiring. I left school at 13,

:11:15.:11:20.

my father was a farm labourer and I left school with no qualifications.

:11:21.:11:25.

I went to university as a single parent and by sheer hard work and my

:11:26.:11:29.

circumstances, like a husband walking out on children, and they

:11:30.:11:33.

were both under three, for some reason I have managed to get here.

:11:34.:11:39.

So I wanted my last speech to say, if I can do this, you can do it. M S

:11:40.:11:50.

So I wanted my last speech to say, P's tent one macro has -- MSPs have

:11:51.:11:58.

time for reflection. Of course I could have done more, but I have

:11:59.:12:03.

done my best and the people are always on about the Highlands and

:12:04.:12:06.

Islands, but they do not have the strongest voice and they do need

:12:07.:12:13.

champions. He was there for Labour. Now he too is ticking of the things

:12:14.:12:19.

he's doing for the last time as a MSP and looking back on his time as

:12:20.:12:24.

a health minister. Clearly it wasn't a time without controversy. Health

:12:25.:12:28.

always isn't. I still think we made progress on the Labour -- under

:12:29.:12:37.

Labour. There have not been major breaks in health policy in England.

:12:38.:12:41.

We have a permanent revolution. There has been a lot of continuity.

:12:42.:12:47.

The reality is that if you look at them both, between 99 and now, there

:12:48.:12:54.

have been improvements. Now he is looking at what the future might

:12:55.:13:03.

hold. I want to see more employment and social security powers. I hope

:13:04.:13:07.

it will be about how we use those powers. The debate about the extent

:13:08.:13:13.

of the powers will never go away. Back at the marina, some advice for

:13:14.:13:19.

those about to throw themselves into Holyrood politics. Enjoy the

:13:20.:13:23.

privilege you have been given, work hard, but understand that you will

:13:24.:13:28.

have to work hard. This is not a nine to five, five day a week job.

:13:29.:13:33.

It takes over your life, that in a way that is just such an enormous

:13:34.:13:39.

privilege. The cliche is that all political careers end in failure.

:13:40.:13:51.

Perhaps what our cohort of retiring M S P' is that in the end we will

:13:52.:13:53.

judge them kindly. On Wednesday, you can watch the last

:13:54.:13:54.

First Minister's Questions before the Scottish Parliament

:13:55.:13:59.

is dissolved. We'll be back after

:14:00.:14:00.

Easter, on 10th April, It all comes down

:14:01.:14:08.

to this one chance.

:14:09.:14:34.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS