Browse content similar to 20/03/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Iain Duncan Smith follows up his resignation with a blistering | :00:41. | :00:50. | |
attack on George Osborne, saying some of the Chancellor's | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
budget measures are deeply unfair and damaging to the country. | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
It's being seen as a direct attack on Chancellor Osborne - | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
are his leadership hopes now holed below the waterline? | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
And with ministers now close to civil war over IDS's resignation, | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
can David Cameron keep the warring factions of his government together? | :01:07. | :01:08. | |
Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland... | :01:09. | :01:09. | |
Ruth Davidson says the Chancellor's plans to cut payments | :01:10. | :01:11. | |
to the disabled showed "short termism". | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
How will that row over IDS play out here? | :01:15. | :01:23. | |
And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political | :01:24. | :01:32. | |
panel in the business - Nick Watt, Isabel Oakeshott | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
So, George Osborne unveiled a Budget which he hoped | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
would satisfy the Tory faithful, generate a feel-good factor | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
in the run up to the EU referendum and enhance his own leadership | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
That strategy started to come off the rails within 24 hours | :01:53. | :01:58. | |
as the Chancellor faced Tory revolts on four fronts. | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
And was blown to smithereens on Friday night when welfare | :02:02. | :02:03. | |
secretary Iain Duncan Smith resigned over savings to disability payments. | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
This morning open warfare is breaking out | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
We'll be devoting the next half hour to this story, | :02:10. | :02:20. | |
with analysis and comment from Nick, Isabel and Janan and interviews | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
with the shadow work and pensions secretary Owen Smith, | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
the Conservative backbencher Heidi Allen, and the head | :02:28. | :02:30. | |
of the Institute for Fiscal Studies Paul Johnson. | :02:31. | :02:32. | |
First, Giles Dilnot reports on the very public falling out | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
at the top of David Cameron's government. | :02:37. | :02:39. | |
When the Chancellor gets badly hurt in an attack from his own side, | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
we shouldn't be surprised where it came | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
Iain Duncan Smith and George Osborne whenever was buddies | :02:48. | :02:54. | |
and they are on the opposite sides of the EU | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
But for nearly six years, they've worked together | :02:59. | :03:06. | |
in government, delivering welfare reform and savings. | :03:07. | :03:08. | |
Last July, when the Chancellor announced the living | :03:09. | :03:10. | |
Those currently on the minimum wage will see that pay rise | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
And whilst in polling, there was popular support | :03:16. | :03:23. | |
for balancing the books and reforming welfare, | :03:24. | :03:30. | |
there was also angry protest, especially from disabled people, | :03:31. | :03:33. | |
who passionately believed they had been targeted | :03:34. | :03:35. | |
The deepest wound a Work and Pensions | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
Secretary could inflict on his own governments, | :03:40. | :03:42. | |
On Wednesday we were touted a budget that would be dull, | :03:43. | :03:51. | |
not much wriggle room or rabbits, sugared or otherwise. | :03:52. | :03:54. | |
Nonetheless, the Chancellor and wannabe PM was | :03:55. | :03:56. | |
The richest 1% pay 28% of all income tax revenue, | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
a higher proportion than in any single year | :04:02. | :04:09. | |
Proof that we are all in this together. | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
But not so for many disabled people and enough Tory MPs, | :04:15. | :04:17. | |
On welfare, last week my right honourable friend the Secretary | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
of State for Work and Pensions, set out changes that will ensure | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
that within the rising disability budget, support is better | :04:29. | :04:31. | |
It was a confirmation of changes that just 48 hours later would see | :04:32. | :04:38. | |
a resignation letter from the man the Chancellor was referring to, | :04:39. | :04:40. | |
questioning if enough is being done to ensure | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
These were changes to personal independence payments that have | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
replaced disability living allowance, that would make it more | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
likely large numbers of recipients got less money, | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
and in some cases much less, in future. | :04:59. | :05:09. | |
Something he regarded as a compromise too far. | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
According to Mr Duncan Smith, the changes had demanded because too | :05:13. | :05:14. | |
much emphasis on money-saving exercises and that his welfare | :05:15. | :05:16. | |
to work reforms could not be repeatedly | :05:17. | :05:17. | |
By this weekend, the government's unofficial paramedic | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
was dispatched to patch up the internal wounds, | :05:24. | :05:24. | |
Mr Duncan Smith's literary cuts had inflicted. | :05:25. | :05:38. | |
by the whole Cabinet on Wednesday morning before the Chancellor | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
And he was obviously part of that process. | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
These proposals came from his department. | :05:48. | :05:49. | |
And the PM's response to the letter stressed... | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
In the hours after the budget, amid angry | :05:56. | :05:57. | |
rumblings from the backbenches, suddenly the government | :05:58. | :05:59. | |
where describing and announced policy | :06:00. | :06:01. | |
Something that has been put forward, there has been a review, | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
And the suggestion the next day from the PM | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
We are going to discuss what we put forward | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
with the disability charities and others, as the Chancellor said | :06:17. | :06:19. | |
It is important this increase in money | :06:20. | :06:27. | |
goes to the people who need it the most. | :06:28. | :06:30. | |
The problem is, the internal party concerns were that it looked | :06:31. | :06:32. | |
like money was going to those that didn't need it most. | :06:33. | :06:34. | |
The headline rate of capital gains tax currently stands at 28%. | :06:35. | :06:36. | |
I am cutting the capital gains tax paid by basic rate | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
Iain Duncan Smith said the disability | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
reforms couldn't be defended within a budget that benefits | :06:47. | :06:48. | |
I'm told this was the most toxic aspect for a large number | :06:49. | :06:55. | |
And that he was not the only conservative in government | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
who'd considered resignation over this. | :07:01. | :07:02. | |
But not everyone was sorry to see him go. | :07:03. | :07:04. | |
The problems have been at the heart of the DWP. | :07:05. | :07:11. | |
I do not see eye to eye with the Treasury, | :07:12. | :07:14. | |
I'm not the Chancellor's biggest supporter, | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
shall we say, but the reality is, in all the experiences I've had, | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
the problems have been with an evangelical point of view, | :07:22. | :07:23. | |
They have consistently failed disabled people | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
As Stephen Crabb takes on work and pensions, | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
But clearly the quiet man reflected if | :07:34. | :07:41. | |
you're going to turn up the volume at all, | :07:42. | :07:43. | |
best rattle the windows of Downing Street. | :07:44. | :07:45. | |
A war of words has now broken out in Iain Duncan Smith's | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
old department, with one junior minister accusing him | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
of "shocking" behaviour, but three other ministers rounding | :07:53. | :07:54. | |
Mr Duncan Smith gave his first post-resignation interview to Andrew | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
Anybody who thinks this is a here today, gone tomorrow | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
I am genuinely frustrated, I have no personal ambitions. If I never go | :08:06. | :08:16. | |
back into government again, I will not cry about that, it is not my | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
ambition. I came into this government, and let me be clear, I | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
came into this government because I cared about welfare reform. I spent | :08:26. | :08:32. | |
eight years in social justice trying to figure out why certain | :08:33. | :08:35. | |
communities were so badly off and how could we get them back to work | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
and solve that one. Everything I have done has been driven by my | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
desire to improve the quality of life for the worst. We can debate my | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
policies, but my motivation has always been a bad back. My motive | :08:49. | :08:56. | |
now, I am concerned that I want to succeed and it cannot do the things | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
it should because it is too focused on narrowly getting the deficit down | :09:03. | :09:04. | |
without saying where it should for. Minutes later the energy | :09:05. | :09:19. | |
secretary Amber Rudd, popped up to attack her former | :09:20. | :09:21. | |
cabinet colleague - saying she resents Mr Duncan Smith's | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
"high moral tone". I do remain perplexed. It indicated | :09:25. | :09:35. | |
he was making progress. He wrote a letter on Thursday night saying what | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
he was doing and why we should support it. So I don't understand. I | :09:40. | :09:46. | |
do remain perplexed about it, but I am disappointed. This is an man I | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
sat a cabinet with for nearly a year. He was a cabinet minister for | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
nearly six years. I do respect him, so to suddenly launch a bombshell on | :09:57. | :10:03. | |
the rest of us in a way that is difficult for us all to understand, | :10:04. | :10:12. | |
is disappointing. It is the Tory party now in open welfare and it is | :10:13. | :10:21. | |
not easily quelled? If Amber Rudd is perplexed, it is a dereliction of | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
duty on her part to understand what has been going on in her own | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
Administration. In a way, there is nothing sudden about this for Iain | :10:31. | :10:33. | |
Duncan Smith, it has been brewing for a long time. She has known that. | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
He has been rustling for a long time whether he can do better, staying | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
where he is and operating within the difficult constraints the Treasury | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
has imposed on him. Or whether he is better off out and saying what he | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
really thinks. That is what tipped him over the edge. The Downing | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
Street strategy is to paint Iain Duncan Smith as a kind of, | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
head-banging Eurosceptic and try to pretend it is all about the EU | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
referendum. I don't think anyone who watched Iain Duncan Smith this | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
morning giving that powerful interview to Andrew Marr, could | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
really doubt that what this is about is Iain Duncan Smith's real desire | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
to do the right thing by the disadvantaged. The rest is just | :11:20. | :11:28. | |
noises off. When you look at some of these clips come he comes out | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
against the welfare cap, to arbitrate. If you are sitting in the | :11:33. | :11:40. | |
Labour Party right now, you will be cutting up that interview and | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
pouring it out at every opportunity. This story will go on and on? I | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
interviewed Iain Duncan Smith about two months after the 2010 election. | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
He said if George Osborne wants me to be a cheese parer and do | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
arbitrate cuts, I will be out. Isabel says commie has been rustling | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
for six years with this. He came into this after the visit to the | :12:06. | :12:11. | |
Easterhouse estate in Glasgow. He had in Europe and championed the | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
vulnerable. He came to it with a mission to try and increase | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
incentives for the low paid to combat to work. To George Osborne, | :12:20. | :12:25. | |
it is the bottom line. But it is not going to go away, you have the | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
extraordinary spectacle of three ministers in his former department, | :12:30. | :12:32. | |
pretty Patel included, putting out statements in support of the Iain | :12:33. | :12:38. | |
Duncan Smith. And you have the pensions minister delivering a | :12:39. | :12:41. | |
Downing Street script saying this is about Europe, even though there is | :12:42. | :12:43. | |
not a word about Europe in Iain Duncan Smith's statement. Ross | :12:44. | :12:49. | |
Altman, who was unhappy with Downing Street and the Treasury on the | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
pension changes coming out and delivering what Downing Street one. | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
It is a mess and it shows the normal discipline you would expect in | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
government really is a challenge but the referendum. It is over the | :13:02. | :13:08. | |
George Osborne? If wasn't on the budget. Tax credits last summer, | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
reversal on pension reforms this year. And now this, you cannot | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
deliver but on Wednesday which is just a proposition by Thursday | :13:19. | :13:20. | |
evening and by Friday evening provokes a senior Cabinet colleagues | :13:21. | :13:23. | |
resignation. It is bad for him. The government should be able to | :13:24. | :13:38. | |
stun them month after a general election Monday, ... And start with | :13:39. | :13:46. | |
them all going in different ways during the referendum, it could get | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
worse. They need this referendum out of the way as quickly as possible. | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
They need a comfortable victory by would suggest, with the remaining | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
side, David Cameron's side to have any chance of putting a look on | :14:01. | :14:06. | |
this. In four years' time, at a general election will determine | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
George Osborne's leadership chances? Quite possibly. I don't know how the | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
Chancellor will put this back together again if you EU referendum | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
campaign. It might not just be a Osborne's future on the line, it | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
could be the Prime Minister's the Chancellor's fate if tied to the | :14:26. | :14:28. | |
Prime Minister. They are the project, they have worked together | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
to make the Conservatives electable again. It George Osborne goes down, | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
David Cameron's position is in doubt. I am not suggesting we care | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
at this point, the it is destabilising. | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
And don't forget Cameron has never been master of these events. As | :14:47. | :14:53. | |
ever, he ain't controlling it. As we know, these things have a life of | :14:54. | :14:56. | |
their own, so it should keep us busy. | :14:57. | :15:03. | |
Iain Duncan Smith's resignation has been simmering for some time | :15:04. | :15:06. | |
but it was triggered by plans to make cuts to disability benefits | :15:07. | :15:09. | |
A few days before George Osborne's budget, the government previewed | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
plans to change the way claimants were assessed for certain disability | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
benefits, saving ?1.3 billion a year. The office of budgetary | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
responsibility said the changes to the personal independence payments, | :15:24. | :15:30. | |
or Pips, would adversely affect 370,000 people by 2020. The amount | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
of Paire pick a person receives is decided by awarding points based on | :15:37. | :15:46. | |
need -- the amount of PIP. Grab rails, personal toilet seats, | :15:47. | :15:48. | |
arguing people would audit have these items. Iain Duncan Smith | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
resigned, saying the changes were not responsible. Replying to the | :15:54. | :16:01. | |
resignation, the Prime Minister said it had now been agreed not to | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
proceed with the policies in their current form. But that wasn't the | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
only major criticism levelled at George Osborne's budget. The | :16:10. | :16:12. | |
Chancellor confirmed he will miss Fiorentina of his three fiscal | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
rules. Next financial year, welfare bill cost almost ?120 billion, well | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
over the cap of ?115 billion, which he introduced himself to restrict | :16:23. | :16:27. | |
overall welfare spending. And he also broke his debt rule, which | :16:28. | :16:30. | |
promised that national debt would decline every year as a proportion | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
of national income. This financial year, total debt is expected to be | :16:37. | :16:44. | |
83.7% of GDP, up from 83.3% in 2014-15. | :16:45. | :16:47. | |
We did ask the Government for an interview about the disability | :16:48. | :16:49. | |
But we were told no one was available. | :16:50. | :16:52. | |
It's a familiar refrain these days, especially when the government | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
I'm joined now by the head of the Institute for | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
Welcome to the programme. It looks like the government is making a | :17:00. | :17:08. | |
U-turn on these cuts to disability payments, how big a haul does that | :17:09. | :17:15. | |
blow in the Chancellor's efforts to get a budget surplus by 2020? The | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
truth is we are talking very small numbers in the context of ?800 | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
billion a year or so of spending. The Chancellor is aiming for nearly | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
a billion pound surplus, he doesn't get this, it takes just down to | :17:29. | :17:31. | |
under ten, so in that sense it doesn't matter all that much to his | :17:32. | :17:38. | |
target the 2020. But he has already inked in 3.5 billion of unspecified | :17:39. | :17:41. | |
cuts, we don't know what they would be to get this surplus, but there | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
are about eight or 9 billion of watch some might call | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
jiggery-pokery, cuts to public investment in the final year, and | :17:50. | :17:52. | |
now this. It must make it more difficult for them. There are all | :17:53. | :18:03. | |
sorts of things in the budget aimed at that particular year. Numbers are | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
being moved around and there are some unspecified spending cuts. It | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
is important to see this in the broader context. Unless something | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
awful happens, we will get close to a budget balance in 2019-20, which | :18:17. | :18:22. | |
given that we were over 150 billion in deficit in 2010, the biggest | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
deficit in his time that we have had, to get from their too close to | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
surplus will be quite an achievement. Economically and | :18:31. | :18:37. | |
enormously, but economically, the enormously, but economically, the | :18:38. | :18:40. | |
difference between a ?10 billion surplus and the deficit is almost | :18:41. | :18:43. | |
hear the dash-mac when neither here nor there. | :18:44. | :18:52. | |
The Treasury would expect that department to find ?1.3 billion | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
elsewhere, is that right? Not necessarily, this is unlike the | :18:59. | :19:04. | |
health budget or the education budget, it is determined by the | :19:05. | :19:07. | |
demands on the budget. So I think if they don't put these changes in, the | :19:08. | :19:15. | |
presumption will be at least that the spending will still be in the | :19:16. | :19:18. | |
budget. The day after the budget, you said the Chancellor had only a | :19:19. | :19:24. | |
50-50 chance of filling his surplus in 2020. Would you like to | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
recalibrate these odds? It is a relatively small change in the | :19:31. | :19:33. | |
context of where we are, still a 50-50 shot. The thing that will | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
determine it is much less changes of this kind and parsley more what | :19:40. | :19:42. | |
happens to the economy, whether the economy does better or worse than | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
currently expected. In many ways, the most important thing we learned | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
on Wednesday is that the O BR has much less optimistic about the | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
economy, and therefore we will all be worse off than we thought we were | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
going to be. The Treasury, as Iain Duncan Smith has been saying, has | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
been clawing away at working age benefits the years, for him this was | :20:08. | :20:10. | |
the final straw. But isn't that inevitable, if you have a government | :20:11. | :20:18. | |
who ring fences pensions and the NHS, the only big travel figure | :20:19. | :20:21. | |
spending line is welfare? If you are looking, like the government has | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
been common to really dramatically reduce the deficit significantly, | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
you are not going to avoid doing things on the welfare side. Much | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
more than ?100 billion was spent on just working age welfare, covered by | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
that welfare cap, which is far more than we spend on almost anything | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
else, apart from health service and pensions. But the Chancellor has | :20:44. | :20:50. | |
created this fiscal position. Even though it was weaker, he cut | :20:51. | :20:56. | |
business rates, he cut corporation tax, capital gains tax, he raised | :20:57. | :20:59. | |
the personal allowance, and he raised 40p income tax threshold. He | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
didn't have to do any of that. Even if he had done only some of that, he | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
would not have had to look for these cuts in disability for study has | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
made that himself will stop you are right, she didn't have to make any | :21:13. | :21:15. | |
of those changes, but it was very clearly in the Conservative | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
manifesto to increase the personal allowance. So presuming that he | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
would have kept the manifesto changes, he would have had to have | :21:25. | :21:27. | |
done that, and has to do quite a lot more route. Cutting those taxes | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
clearly means you have to do some other things to maintain his target. | :21:32. | :21:38. | |
But he didn't have to do them. Also, perhaps his leadership tensions did | :21:39. | :21:41. | |
play a part. There were two major areas where they could have raised a | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
lot of money, pension reform, by taking away the top tax-free, which | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
could have saved billions, and raising the fuel duty. If you don't | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
visit now, when will you? Both could have raised billions and he chose | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
not to do it. Those are two very different kinds of things. Yes, you | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
are right, it is astonishing with petrol prices at their lowest level | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
for a very long time, chatty on petrol at its lowest level since the | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
mid-19 90s, the cost of driving a car at its lowest level for perhaps | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
30 years. If you can't increase fuel duties even then, that is a | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
long-term problem for the Treasury, because it brings in a lot of money, | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
?30 billion a year, and if that goes it is a real problem. On pension tax | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
will if it is a much more complex issue. There are good economic | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
arguments, for maintaining it as we have at the moment, and had you got | :22:34. | :22:36. | |
rid of that 40% relief, you would have hit the 5 million or so people | :22:37. | :22:42. | |
who pay 40% tax, it would have been another slice of the population | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
rather unhappy. The national debt, not the deficit, will be 1.7 4 | :22:47. | :22:53. | |
trillion by 20 20. If the government was then to run a surplus of say 10 | :22:54. | :22:59. | |
billion a year for ten years, which would be unprecedented in British | :23:00. | :23:02. | |
government, after a decade, the debt would still, by my simple rhythmic | :23:03. | :23:10. | |
calculation, the ?1.64 trillion. Is that what you mean by economically | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
irrelevant in running a surplus? The key point about the size of the debt | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
is it is size as a fraction of national income. More important than | :23:21. | :23:30. | |
the absolute level. As the -- even running a surplus of 10 billion or | :23:31. | :23:33. | |
so a year, you don't get too prerecession levels of debt until | :23:34. | :23:39. | |
the mid 2030s. The argument the Chancellor would make the running a | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
surplus year after year is that even if you just run a balanced budget, | :23:44. | :23:55. | |
it takes quite a lot of time just to undo the damage that the crisis did. | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
Joining me now from Glasgow is the Shadow Work and Pensions | :24:01. | :24:03. | |
Owen Smith, in his resignation letter, Iain Duncan Smith says it is | :24:04. | :24:15. | |
now time to look at ending the protection of pensions. Do you agree | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
with that? I don't think that should be the first thing they look at at | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
all, Andrew. I think the very clear message that Iain Duncan Smith | :24:25. | :24:26. | |
himself has delivered is their word choices that could have been made in | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
the budget, and the Chancellor made them and he made the wrong ones | :24:31. | :24:33. | |
coming chose to cut the benefits from disabled people. As we have | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
heard, the PIP cuts taking many thousands of pounds away from the | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
370,000 people, and instead he chose that he was going to cut corporation | :24:44. | :24:49. | |
tax, which he -- is going to benefit large countries in this country, and | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
he chose to cut capital gains tax, which were largely benefit people | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
who have got a bit of money. So I think there were different changes | :24:58. | :24:59. | |
he could have made even within the terms of this budget that would have | :25:00. | :25:07. | |
been much fairer. I understand that, but which are nevertheless have | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
thinks it the benefits? -- ring fenced? We need to look at all these | :25:12. | :25:21. | |
things long-term, but it would be for a Labour government when we get | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
closer to the next election to the absolute specifics on all of those | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
pension benefits, but by and large, let's be clear. The last Labour | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
government worked incredibly hard to raise pensioners out of poverty. We | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
were incredibly successful in that regard, a million pensioners lifted | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
out of poverty under the last Labour government and I don't think they | :25:43. | :25:44. | |
ought to be the target for cuts, just as I don't believe that | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
disabled people ought to be. There are myriad other choices the | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
government could have taken. Iain Duncan Smith today I think has been | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
very honest in explaining how George Osborne could have taken different | :25:57. | :25:59. | |
choices, should have done, and in his words he is dividing Britain, | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
moving away from any notion of us all being in it together. But you | :26:06. | :26:17. | |
are committed to balancing current spending, but if you have ring | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
fenced pensions, as you have told us this morning, presumably you would | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
ring fence the NHS, or even add to spending in the NHS, and you want to | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
ring fence nearly all of welfare as well. Where do the cuts come from | :26:31. | :26:36. | |
the balance current spending? I have just given you two, let's be very | :26:37. | :26:42. | |
specific, Labour would be saying today if it were our budget, that we | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
would not have done the cuts to corporation tax, that would have | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
given us in year ?600 million, and we would not have done the cut to | :26:52. | :26:54. | |
capital gains tax, that would give us another ?600 million. That nets | :26:55. | :27:01. | |
off the PIP cuts annually, the ?1.2 billion, and there are other similar | :27:02. | :27:06. | |
choices we could look at. We would not have taken corporation tax back | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
to 19%. We would have been taking far more from large multinational | :27:12. | :27:14. | |
companies than this government is. So far you have given me 1.2 | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
billion, but you have announced much more than that in spending plans. So | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
I am not quite clear how it is you would balance current spending, | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
because I think we can both agree an extra 1.2 billion went to do it, | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
will it? No, but a corporation tax alone by 2020 would be giving us | :27:35. | :27:40. | |
?2.5 billion, if we were to revert back to the April 2015 rate of 20%. | :27:41. | :27:46. | |
We would still have a corporation tax in this country that was 10% | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
lower than Germany, 15% lower than America, 10% lower than Australia. | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
It would be an extremely competitive rate of tax. I just highlight that | :27:55. | :28:01. | |
?1 billion example, ?3 billion example, how we would make different | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
choices. Right, but as I say, in many of your spending plans you have | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
already spent that sort of money. You also talk about fair taxes, you | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
would not cut the corporation tax any further, what else to you mean | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
by fair taxes? What would you raise by fair taxes? As I said a minute | :28:20. | :28:26. | |
ago, we can't for years out from a budget before, a pre-election budget | :28:27. | :28:32. | |
from Labour, tell you precisely what all of our spending plans will be, I | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
don't think that is a reasonable thing to ask any opposition | :28:37. | :28:38. | |
government to do but I think we are setting very clear indicators about | :28:39. | :28:49. | |
what we think the benefits would be. Give us another example. It is | :28:50. | :28:57. | |
reflective of our belief that those who have the largest amounts of | :28:58. | :28:59. | |
money ought to bear the largest burden in our society. It is unclear | :29:00. | :29:08. | |
whether that raises you very much. The government's own analysis showed | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
there was ?3 billion forgone in cutting that top rate of tax. I now | :29:14. | :29:16. | |
see they are trying to argue they have somehow applied a famous curve | :29:17. | :29:24. | |
and ?8 billion they have made. I think corporation tax shows you very | :29:25. | :29:27. | |
clearly, corporation tax receipts have been flat, they have managed to | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
cut from 28% to 20% in the last six years, and the amount of receipts we | :29:34. | :29:40. | |
are getting in has gone from 43 billion to 43 billion. Investment | :29:41. | :29:41. | |
has decreased. What are used to call sickness | :29:42. | :29:51. | |
benefit comes to over 50 billion pounds a year. You would leave it | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
untouched? No, we want to reform the system. Take for example, Iain | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
Duncan Smith made a lot about universal credit this morning. He | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
has said George Osborne has stripped out the guts of universal credit. I | :30:07. | :30:13. | |
was asking about disability? Some people who are disabled will be in | :30:14. | :30:15. | |
receipt of universal credit. What would you do about the disability 50 | :30:16. | :30:22. | |
billion pounds annual budget? We wouldn't be making the changes the | :30:23. | :30:29. | |
current government are proposing. They are lying to the British public | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
about this, spending on the disabled is increasing. If you take all | :30:34. | :30:42. | |
disability benefits, I am publishing figures today that say it has | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
declined around 60% that the government have already cut disabled | :30:47. | :30:54. | |
benefits. -- 6%. That will not be my target. Would you keep this increase | :30:55. | :30:57. | |
in the threshold for people who enter the 40% tax bracket? Yes, we | :30:58. | :31:03. | |
would keep that. It is fair to say the fiscal drag of people being | :31:04. | :31:09. | |
pulled into the 40p rate has been increasing. I think we will need to | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
reform taxation much more fundamentally. I still think the key | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
thing today is we have got to understand George Osborne is the man | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
in the dock. I am going to have to stop you there. We look forward to | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
talking to you in the future about your plans for tax reform. Now let's | :31:28. | :31:35. | |
go to the Conservative MP who has spearheaded the back bench | :31:36. | :31:42. | |
opposition to George Osborne's tax cuts. Was a Iain Duncan Smith right | :31:43. | :31:49. | |
to resign? He was coming he had reached a point where he had had | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
enough of the purse strings being pulled so he couldn't deliver the | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
welfare reform he wanted to. He had no option. Mr Cameron says he is | :31:59. | :32:05. | |
puzzled by the resignation and the position of the government on these | :32:06. | :32:08. | |
welfare reforms and cuts had been collectively agreed. I am learning, | :32:09. | :32:17. | |
I am still a relatively new MP. You can keep your powder dry for so | :32:18. | :32:20. | |
long, you are convinced by the whips that this is the right thing to do. | :32:21. | :32:26. | |
Your conscience will kick in, it did for me last year over tax credits. | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
The rumblings are more open this year than they were last year over | :32:31. | :32:33. | |
The rumblings are more open this tax credits. Iain Duncan Smith | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
looked around him and saw many MP is saying how unhappy they were and he | :32:39. | :32:41. | |
couldn't proceed any longer. Would you have been one of the rebels if | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
the government had proceeded with what was in the budget for the | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
disability payments? Absolutely, I would have been. Iain Duncan Smith, | :32:51. | :32:56. | |
perhaps under Treasury pressure over the years has presided over a number | :32:57. | :33:03. | |
of cuts to welfare. Now he is resigning over a cut that isn't | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
going to happen, as far as we can make out. What is the logic in that? | :33:08. | :33:14. | |
The first thing to say, I cannot say the certain it wouldn't have | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
happened. I have had no letter or e-mail coming from the Treasury | :33:19. | :33:20. | |
saying we will be looking at it again. A lot of what has been cut | :33:21. | :33:28. | |
from Iain Duncan Smith's point of view, so the tax credit taper rate, | :33:29. | :33:36. | |
universal taper rate, PIP, it has been coming thick and fast. He has | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
had to deliver what it was revolutionary welfare reforms. He | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
wanted to do them the right way. Everything I talked about in my | :33:46. | :33:51. | |
maiden speech about doing it gently and allowing the minimum wage to | :33:52. | :33:56. | |
rise. The Treasury whole the purse strings and they stopped him | :33:57. | :33:58. | |
delivering the policies the way he wanted to. Given what happened to | :33:59. | :34:04. | |
tax credits, which was a move to take away some welfare benefits from | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
the working poor, is it not puzzling the Chancellor then moved in to an | :34:10. | :34:15. | |
even more difficult group to deal with, in terms of taking things | :34:16. | :34:20. | |
away, into the disabled and seem to have learned nothing from the tax | :34:21. | :34:27. | |
credit U turn? I guess we will see in the days and weeks to come. It is | :34:28. | :34:34. | |
not just PIP, you will remember the extra payment given to claimants who | :34:35. | :34:40. | |
had been ill for a long time and were returning to work. I voted | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
against that also. I hope Stephen Crabb, the new Secretary of State | :34:45. | :34:47. | |
will have a conversation with the Treasury and this will be brought to | :34:48. | :34:50. | |
the table. We have made some poor decisions. Some of the areas of | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
taxation we have opted for instead, are wrong. It doesn't send the right | :34:56. | :34:59. | |
message that as a Conservative Party we can look after everybody in | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
society. It is only the Conservatives who can, because we do | :35:04. | :35:06. | |
need the strong economy to deliver any of this. But it has got to come | :35:07. | :35:14. | |
back to the table and we have got to start again. Is it your view it | :35:15. | :35:18. | |
wouldn't be enough just to tinker with what the government was | :35:19. | :35:20. | |
planning to do with the personal mobility independent payments and do | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
what it did with tax credits, which was to scrap what it was planning to | :35:25. | :35:33. | |
do and start again? I have spoken to a lot of disability charities. I am | :35:34. | :35:39. | |
putting myself through and Mark PIP assessment because I want to feel | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
what it is like. It just doesn't work that so many groups of ill and | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
disabled people. Tinkering with two tiny point isn't good enough. We | :35:51. | :35:53. | |
need to look at the whole process and start from scratch and work with | :35:54. | :35:59. | |
these charities, who understand the pressures put on these people so we | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
have a system that works for them. Your party is in open warfare this | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
morning, you have a resignation and people are referring to you as the | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
nasty party. How big a crisis is this for the Conservatives? I have | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
been thinking about this this morning. I am trying to keep my own | :36:19. | :36:27. | |
wooden spoon in my kitchen drawer. I think, in a funny sort of way, | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
because there has been so much focus on the EU, this might lead the sense | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
check we need. All MPs are good people trying to do the best they | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
can. This could be the slap to the face we all need that says hang on, | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
get back together and sort ourselves out. We are the party that should be | :36:47. | :36:49. | |
looking after people. In fact, I think it could bring us together. If | :36:50. | :36:55. | |
you are to be brought together for a fresh start from tax credit to | :36:56. | :37:00. | |
disability payments, is George Osborne still the right Chancellor | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
to do it? It depends how he responds to the challenge. I am hoping so. | :37:05. | :37:16. | |
The jury is still out? Yes. Are his chances to be Prime Minister below | :37:17. | :37:23. | |
the water line? Sometimes the strength of a man is how he picks | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
himself up from a fall. So let's see how he responds. If this is | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
attempted to be brushed under the carpet, I think his chances are | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
over. If he lets himself up and shows he is listening, making | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
mistakes is OK, providing you correct them before they affect | :37:41. | :37:44. | |
people. He did that with tax credits. Some ways it was a big | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
thing because it would have affected millions and millions of people. But | :37:49. | :37:55. | |
we need to wait and see what he is going to do with this. Your wooden | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
spoon is always welcome on this programme. | :38:01. | :38:08. | |
Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. | :38:09. | :38:10. | |
Kezia Dugdale tells Labour conference delegates | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
that the Holyrood poll is not a "foregone conclusion", | :38:16. | :38:18. | |
as she faces her toughest ever electoral challenge. | :38:19. | :38:25. | |
What difference will a city deal make to Inverness? | :38:26. | :38:27. | |
The Chancellor is expected to make an announcement within days. | :38:28. | :38:29. | |
MSPs back in 1999 - we'll talk to some of those | :38:30. | :38:32. | |
who are standing down from the Scottish Parliament. | :38:33. | :38:41. | |
Iain Duncan Smith, who was, until his resignation on | :38:42. | :38:43. | |
Friday night, the Work and Pensions Secretary, has confronted criticism | :38:44. | :38:45. | |
about his resignation, insisting it was a matter | :38:46. | :38:47. | |
of principle based on his concerns about welfare reform. | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
He told Andrew Marr this morning that his decision has nothing to do | :38:53. | :38:56. | |
with Europe and everything to do with cuts to the welfare budget, | :38:57. | :38:59. | |
while health and pensions are ring-fenced. | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
Senior ministers insist Mr Duncan Smith had previously | :39:04. | :39:05. | |
Yesterday the party's Scottish leader, Ruth Davidson, | :39:06. | :39:14. | |
said there had been some "short-termism" in the Chancellor's | :39:15. | :39:16. | |
plans to cut personal independence payments. | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
I think the Conservative worked really hard over the years to | :39:22. | :39:27. | |
try to reform welfare. It is a thorny issue. We have worked hard to | :39:28. | :39:33. | |
get people back into work. More than 2 million people are in jobs than | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
they were before. But we cannot let short-term cuts and do all of that | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
good work. I am pleased the government is looking again at | :39:42. | :39:45. | |
changes and I think the new secretary is exactly the amount take | :39:46. | :39:52. | |
forward. -- the man to take that forward. | :39:53. | :39:53. | |
Joining me now is the Scottish Political Editor | :39:54. | :39:55. | |
at the Sunday Herald, Tom Gordon, and the writer and journalist | :39:56. | :39:57. | |
David Torrance, who's in our London studio. | :39:58. | :39:59. | |
We heard there that Tory backbenchers aren't exactly rushing | :40:00. | :40:07. | |
out to support George Osborne. It is a completely open season. I never | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
thought he had much of a chance of ever becoming the Conservative | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
leader. He always seems too cold and rectally. Now he has a Syria record | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
of failure behind him. There is no way the Conservative Party will put | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
him at the helm. I also think that it is difficult for Ruth Davidson. | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
She has set her party a very specific goal of becoming the | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
official opposition, overtaking Labour. I think this argument about | :40:36. | :40:39. | |
taking away from the disabled reminds a lot of swing voters why | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
they do not vote Conservative. This is a party that is perceived as | :40:44. | :40:49. | |
pampering the rich and punishing the poor. -- reptilian and cold. The | :40:50. | :40:59. | |
important thing is that what the government wants to do about these | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
cuts. It appears from David Cameron's letter to IDS that they | :41:05. | :41:12. | |
may not go ahead. So you wonder what the point of all this was. Was it | :41:13. | :41:19. | |
all meant to cause damage? And indirectly lead to resignations and | :41:20. | :41:22. | |
generate bad headlines. All of this highlights that David Cameron has | :41:23. | :41:26. | |
for a long time papered over the cracks within his party. And has | :41:27. | :41:32. | |
exposed them as looking quite shambolic. And I think, more | :41:33. | :41:39. | |
broadly, what you have is tension a more strategic, considered approach | :41:40. | :41:44. | |
by Iain Duncan Smith, who is not ambitious. He has been leader of the | :41:45. | :41:49. | |
party. He was not seeking greater advancement. And others have said he | :41:50. | :42:00. | |
is a more -- has a more -- a more short-term approach from the | :42:01. | :42:07. | |
Chancellor. If clever is screwing up several budget and not becoming | :42:08. | :42:10. | |
leader, I think I would go with Iain Duncan Smith. Do you think that his | :42:11. | :42:22. | |
chances of becoming Prime Minister have been shot? He had his | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
omnishambles budget. He publicly have been shot? He had his | :42:27. | :42:32. | |
floated pension reforms, which were not carried out. And now this. There | :42:33. | :42:38. | |
is a pattern there. As Tom has said, and judging from today's quotes, it | :42:39. | :42:45. | |
does seem extremely unlikely that Osborne will become the next leader. | :42:46. | :42:48. | |
There are even suggestions that he won't even put his name forward. Who | :42:49. | :42:57. | |
is your favourite? I think anyone who knows the Conservative Party | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
history knows that whoever becomes leader is never expected. That was | :43:02. | :43:05. | |
true of David Cameron, true Iain Duncan Smith and further back it was | :43:06. | :43:07. | |
true of Margaret Thatcher. I think a Duncan Smith and further back it was | :43:08. | :43:10. | |
figure will emerge that isn't Duncan Smith and further back it was | :43:11. | :43:13. | |
necessarily being discussed at the moment. I don't think it will be | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
Boris Johnson either. Tom Gordon, you were saying this could be bad | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
for the Tories in Scotland with an election coming up. I think the | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
other way you could play it is to say that this was short termism, as | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
Ruth Davidson hinted. But we are not doing it. This shows that the | :43:32. | :43:36. | |
Conservative Party, far from being the heartless, hated Tories, | :43:37. | :43:43. | |
responds to people. MPs have said that, you know, our voters like | :43:44. | :43:50. | |
cutting welfare, but not taking away from the disabled. How are they | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
going to do it? I don't think that is what she was saying. She said | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
sought termism was bad. Most people think that. The point about the PIP | :44:01. | :44:08. | |
changes were that they were narrow. The money was going to go down and | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
stay down. This was not a short-term cut. The point is that that can now | :44:14. | :44:25. | |
be pinned on George Osborne. But from David Cameron's letter to Iain | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
Duncan Smith, that is not the case. They may come back from it. They | :44:30. | :44:36. | |
might find cuts from elsewhere in the budget. That doesn't necessarily | :44:37. | :44:42. | |
mean the disabled and low paid will be safe. Or would see their money | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
affected at all. George Osborne coming had his omnishambles budget. | :44:47. | :44:58. | |
This was the instashambles budget. Ruth Davidson has to come out and | :44:59. | :45:13. | |
realise this is a bad budget. Instashambles. What about the | :45:14. | :45:18. | |
broader budget. Let's see David Cameron loses the EU referendum, it | :45:19. | :45:26. | |
might become so. It would only need IDS to say he was wrong onto welfare | :45:27. | :45:28. | |
and Europe, he is not fit to be IDS to say he was wrong onto welfare | :45:29. | :45:32. | |
Prime Minister. It is not the same, IDS to say he was wrong onto welfare | :45:33. | :45:35. | |
because David Cameron will not be Prime Minister in a year or so. Even | :45:36. | :45:41. | |
if he wins the referendum, he says he will stand down and would contest | :45:42. | :45:46. | |
the next election. If he loses, it won't take a critical comment from | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
Iain Duncan Smith to push him out. He wore me is pretty quickly off his | :45:51. | :45:55. | |
own accord. And it shows you that referendums are subject to the law | :45:56. | :45:59. | |
of unintended consequences. Once you open this Pandora's box... I think | :46:00. | :46:06. | |
the Prime Minister was perfectly right to do so. It is difficult to | :46:07. | :46:10. | |
control the political dynamic afterwards. We have seen that. In | :46:11. | :46:16. | |
terms of external and internal party politics and, as I suggested a long, | :46:17. | :46:23. | |
long papered over cracks at every level. -- suggested earlier. Thank | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
you. Kezia Dugdale was in a confident | :46:29. | :46:29. | |
mood yesterday as she told delegates that Labour would end | :46:30. | :46:32. | |
austerity in Scotland. She pledged to use the Scottish | :46:33. | :46:34. | |
Parliament's new powers to raise taxes to mitigate billions of pounds | :46:35. | :46:36. | |
of Tory cuts and threw down a challenge to the SNP | :46:37. | :46:39. | |
to do the same. Her comments came as the latest poll | :46:40. | :46:42. | |
indicated Labour could fall into third place behind the Tories | :46:43. | :46:44. | |
in the May election. Our reporter Andrew Black | :46:45. | :46:47. | |
was at the conference and sent us This summer, get ready for an epic | :46:48. | :47:01. | |
clash of the Titans. As Labour prepares to take on the SNP in the | :47:02. | :47:07. | |
ultimate battle for supremacy. Scottish Labour is facing one of its | :47:08. | :47:13. | |
toughest challenges yet. At last year 's Westminster election, the | :47:14. | :47:16. | |
party was all but wiped out. Now they are hoping that just a Frome | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
months from the Scottish election, they can avoid history repeating | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
itself. They beheld its spring conference this weekend in a cinema | :47:26. | :47:31. | |
in Glasgow, were helped to -- hoped to rally as much support. Will it be | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
a tale of triumph for the underdog, or will it turn out to be a disaster | :47:37. | :47:40. | |
movie? After things got underway, the conference began its search for | :47:41. | :47:45. | |
the big idea, although, with the election in May, there's not a huge | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
amount of time left to come up with it. One delegate used the occasion | :47:50. | :47:53. | |
to get into the spirit of his surroundings. I have another | :47:54. | :48:00. | |
persona, which I intend to reveal here and now for the first time to | :48:01. | :48:06. | |
conference, I am also... Labour cap conference, I am also... Labour cap | :48:07. | :48:25. | |
-- Labour Man! Alan Johnson came to see why Britain should stay in the | :48:26. | :48:34. | |
UK. Kos our future is brighter in the EU then it is in splendid | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
isolation. That is why I need you to join me and Kent -- Kezia Dugdale. | :48:40. | :48:54. | |
Not everyone wanted to stay in. If you are in favour of a Leave vote, | :48:55. | :48:57. | |
that doesn't make you an extremist. It doesn't put you on the fringes of | :48:58. | :49:03. | |
politics, you in the centre. That is that is what is being considered, | :49:04. | :49:06. | |
politics, you in the centre. That is contemplative by ordinary voters. | :49:07. | :49:09. | |
Even if the politicians think it is too extreme and too out there, that | :49:10. | :49:14. | |
is not what is reflected in the population. They want to be | :49:15. | :49:19. | |
convinced in both directions, at the moment, everything is to play for. | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
And then it was time for the main feature presentation. Kezia Dugdale | :49:25. | :49:32. | |
the movie. In full 3-D. She dismissed the idea that the S NP had | :49:33. | :49:39. | |
already won. People say it is a foregone conclusion is no interest | :49:40. | :49:50. | |
in this campaign. They couldn't be more wrong. She talked about | :49:51. | :49:55. | |
building council houses and ending austerity. | :49:56. | :50:04. | |
I have no intention of making it easy for the SNP macro. Join me and | :50:05. | :50:12. | |
this party can do again what we have always done at our best. Challenge | :50:13. | :50:18. | |
the establishment, overturned the status quo, deliver real change now. | :50:19. | :50:27. | |
Thank you. So, will that be enough for ultimate big today? We will know | :50:28. | :50:31. | |
in May. Joining me now is Labour MSP | :50:32. | :50:35. | |
Jackie Baillie, Shadow Spokesperson on Public Services | :50:36. | :50:38. | |
and Wealth Creation. Kezia Dugdale says she wants to end | :50:39. | :50:51. | |
austerity. Are you saying the penny tax rise you propose plus returning | :50:52. | :50:57. | |
the top rate to 50p is sufficient to do that? We have looked at all the | :50:58. | :51:03. | |
public finances available to Scotland, the new powers coming to | :51:04. | :51:07. | |
Scotland, and we made the pledge. Having looked at that we would not | :51:08. | :51:12. | |
continue the conveyor belt of austerity represented by the Tory | :51:13. | :51:17. | |
policies. Are the tax rises you propose sufficient to do that? Yes, | :51:18. | :51:22. | |
we've look and we find the detail when you announced the policy during | :51:23. | :51:26. | |
the course of the next few weeks, you will see quite clearly where | :51:27. | :51:31. | |
that money comes from, a combination of tax rises, borrowing powers, all | :51:32. | :51:34. | |
that and we will set it out in detail. It is a pledge to end Tory | :51:35. | :51:41. | |
austerity, to use the powers the Parliament now has. Let me quote you | :51:42. | :51:45. | |
something Kezia Dugdale said, the pledge to end austerity won't be | :51:46. | :51:50. | |
respective about what is spent it will set out the path that must be | :51:51. | :51:55. | |
followed in order to dispense with austerity, what does that mean? In | :51:56. | :52:02. | |
normal circumstances we know what the Scottish Government spending | :52:03. | :52:04. | |
plans are, the UK Government spending plans are, we have a stark | :52:05. | :52:10. | |
calculations on those and set out quite clearly the additional tax | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
measures we have it in place. What do you need to be prospective about | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
spending? Say it is a deep recession we enter into, nobody wants that to | :52:20. | :52:24. | |
happen. You need the flexibility to respond to that soak, Alistair | :52:25. | :52:28. | |
Darling when he was last Chancellor made the cut to VAT and we want to | :52:29. | :52:33. | |
ensure his Mrs and the economy can be responded to. Your are, in | :52:34. | :52:39. | |
effect, saying to voters in Scotland we are going to put your taxes up in | :52:40. | :52:43. | |
order to spend more money on the public spec but we are not that | :52:44. | :52:48. | |
bothered about what the money is spent on. That is not the case at | :52:49. | :52:55. | |
all. If you look at our proposal for having a 50p top rate, that is | :52:56. | :53:00. | |
entirely going to go on to education for a fairer stark fund so there is | :53:01. | :53:08. | |
?1000 going pear child... I am not saying you have not outlined things | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
you want to do with the money but you have not even respect truth | :53:13. | :53:17. | |
about the next government spend. You are telling people of Scotland that | :53:18. | :53:23. | |
taxes are going up but what UK and about as the Labour Party is putting | :53:24. | :53:27. | |
taxes up and spending more money in the public sector rather than what | :53:28. | :53:31. | |
the money is spent on. We said we care about what the people of | :53:32. | :53:35. | |
Scotland care about. We said we would protect health services and | :53:36. | :53:40. | |
education. This in a sense protect all of our public services that | :53:41. | :53:43. | |
people care about in real terms. That is just another way of saying | :53:44. | :53:49. | |
we will put your taxes up to spend on the public sector but we do not | :53:50. | :53:52. | |
care what we spend it on. That is not the case. A ?500 million cut | :53:53. | :53:58. | |
that would predominantly fall in education, if you care about the | :53:59. | :54:03. | |
economy, about education in the country going, you invest in | :54:04. | :54:08. | |
education. That ?500 million cut would have limited our aspiration as | :54:09. | :54:11. | |
a country and we did not want to make that choice. My point is, there | :54:12. | :54:17. | |
is also a basic point about ending austerity. Absolutely. During the | :54:18. | :54:25. | |
financial class in Economist thought about ending austerity. He meant | :54:26. | :54:26. | |
financial class in Economist thought government should talk about | :54:27. | :54:30. | |
borrowing money and pump it into the economy in order to raise the man. | :54:31. | :54:36. | |
He did not mean put taxes up to dispense more on the public sector, | :54:37. | :54:39. | |
that has nothing to do with ending austerity. The choice we face in the | :54:40. | :54:45. | |
Scottish Parliament is to use the new powers we have got or not. There | :54:46. | :54:50. | |
is a basic point here, putting people's taxes up is adding to | :54:51. | :54:54. | |
austerity, not taking away from it. I do not believe it is adding to | :54:55. | :55:00. | |
austerity and here's why. Our investment would actually be in | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
education and if you want to grow the economy and create additional | :55:05. | :55:08. | |
wealth one of the key things you do is invest in our people, the | :55:09. | :55:12. | |
education and everything else. I understand that but it want to have | :55:13. | :55:17. | |
an argument and say money spent on education in the long-term pumping | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
demand into the economy is more, raising taxes has less of an effect, | :55:23. | :55:27. | |
I will concede the point to you but you're not borrowing money to pump | :55:28. | :55:30. | |
into the economy, your extra spending is offset right putting | :55:31. | :55:37. | |
people's taxes up and in terms of ending austerity, that is not an end | :55:38. | :55:40. | |
to austerity it is merely shuffling it about. We are not shuffling it | :55:41. | :55:46. | |
about, let me assure you. By investing in education you start to | :55:47. | :55:50. | |
create the conditions for growing the economy. We have funds to build | :55:51. | :55:57. | |
60,000 affordable homes, that is investment in construction that | :55:58. | :56:00. | |
contributes to growing GDP and growing the economy. That might be | :56:01. | :56:04. | |
fantastic but does not get you down the basic point that putting | :56:05. | :56:08. | |
fantastic but does not get you down people's taxes up is by definition | :56:09. | :56:12. | |
sucking demand out of the economy. It may be that all your investment | :56:13. | :56:15. | |
demands are just wonderful but you cannot they macro it has anything to | :56:16. | :56:20. | |
do with ending austerity. But they do because we will take the choices | :56:21. | :56:25. | |
that makes cuts that the SNP and Tories are currently doing. We would | :56:26. | :56:29. | |
invest in the country and invest in the country in the future. That is | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
the choice facing people at this election, do they want to invest in | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
the future or do they want a conveyor belt of cuts coming to the | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
Scottish Parliament? You say a conveyor belt of cuts but according | :56:42. | :56:47. | |
to the latest figures Labour made a song and dance about, according to | :56:48. | :56:50. | |
those figures in Scotland we already spend 12 Wi-Fi has sent more of | :56:51. | :56:55. | |
public money for every person who lives here and as a proportion of | :56:56. | :57:00. | |
GDP, if you exclude oil revenues which I am sure you would be more | :57:01. | :57:07. | |
than happy to do, we spent 8% of Scottish GDP more as the UK spends | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
as a percentage of UK GDP on public services yet you are telling people | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
in Scotland despite the fact we already spend all that extra money, | :57:16. | :57:19. | |
our taxes have to go up to spend even more on the public sector | :57:20. | :57:23. | |
without people in England's taxes do not have to go up. Devolution allows | :57:24. | :57:30. | |
us to make different choices. We have our to do things differently in | :57:31. | :57:35. | |
Scotland. The cuts that have even visited on us by the SNP and the | :57:36. | :57:41. | |
Tories have 10% in the past in education, 16% in the future, will | :57:42. | :57:45. | |
substantially damage this country and our economy. We are choosing to | :57:46. | :57:53. | |
do things differently. It is widely recognised, I think, that the | :57:54. | :57:56. | |
education system in England has done rather well over the last decade or | :57:57. | :58:00. | |
so. It caught up hats with Scotland and perhaps in some areas has | :58:01. | :58:04. | |
overtaken it. Nicola Sturgeon is talking about copying the London | :58:05. | :58:10. | |
challenge which had such a dramatic effect on education the. We spend 12 | :58:11. | :58:16. | |
sent more per capita and you are saying we have to spend even more in | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
order to help the education system. These changes in England were not | :58:21. | :58:23. | |
order to help the education system. achieved high throwing money at the | :58:24. | :58:26. | |
problem. It is all about spending money better and I agree with that | :58:27. | :58:32. | |
point out what we have seen the SNP preside over is 14,000 teachers in | :58:33. | :58:38. | |
our classrooms, 152,000 fewer places at colleges, that is not about | :58:39. | :58:41. | |
investing in the country and young people in future so we need to make | :58:42. | :58:46. | |
sure we do that. England did it while they were cutting budgets. I | :58:47. | :58:51. | |
want to make sure we have the best possible education system, health | :58:52. | :58:55. | |
service in this country. You do not achieve that by cutting budgets. | :58:56. | :58:59. | |
service in this country. You do not lot of people watching this will say | :59:00. | :59:04. | |
it is the same old Labour Party, the party of tax and spend, they want to | :59:05. | :59:08. | |
spend more money on public services because it protects the people who | :59:09. | :59:12. | |
vote for them and for ordinary people in Scotland, why do I have to | :59:13. | :59:17. | |
pay more tax, they will say, when England does not? If you are | :59:18. | :59:21. | |
ambitious and aspirational for this country then actually unique to | :59:22. | :59:26. | |
invest in the right things. We do not think cutting education is the | :59:27. | :59:31. | |
right thing to do. We are rejecting Tory austerity because we think it | :59:32. | :59:35. | |
damages the country. There is a choice that affects people in | :59:36. | :59:38. | |
Scotland, do you want to invest in the future or do you want more cuts | :59:39. | :59:45. | |
from the Tories and the SNP? Thank you very much indeed. | :59:46. | :59:48. | |
Among the less controversial announcements of the | :59:49. | :59:50. | |
Chancellor's Budget was the latest tranche of city deals. | :59:51. | :59:52. | |
These are intended as a funding mechanism to promote growth | :59:53. | :59:54. | |
and improve infrastructure, with funds provided by Westminster | :59:55. | :59:56. | |
and Holyrood, and which unlock wider access to finance | :59:57. | :59:58. | |
George Osborne didn't mention Inverness in his speech, | :59:59. | :00:01. | |
but it's believed that the deal will be announced this week. | :00:02. | :00:04. | |
Our reporter Craig Anderson explains what it will mean | :00:05. | :00:06. | |
It is imposing red sandstone walls that completely dominate the | :00:07. | :00:21. | |
Inveresk skyline. It attracts thousands of duty is to list every | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
year but the only way they are getting through these doors is by | :00:26. | :00:31. | |
breaking the law. Inverness Castle is home to the city's Sheriff Court. | :00:32. | :00:38. | |
The castle complex was all around the time Queen Victoria came to the | :00:39. | :00:41. | |
throne but a major redevelopment into a top-flight tourist attraction | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
is now on the cards and the City Deal could provide the millions of | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
pounds needed for the beaver. The evening culture, cafe culture, | :00:53. | :00:56. | |
restaurant culture is superb but during the day there is nothing to | :00:57. | :00:59. | |
do. The leather is underdeveloped, everything is underdeveloped in | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
terms of attracting visitors to Inverness. Something needs to be | :01:05. | :01:07. | |
done and the City Deal is our opportunity. With contributions from | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
Westminster and Holyrood government and from the Highland Council the | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
catch pot could extend to ?300 million. As well as the castle | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
conversion is to be an international standard sports and leisure hub | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
containing a velodrome and conference centre. Other ideas | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
include tarting up Inverness city centre and relieving traffic | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
congestion with the transport infrastructure. In terms of the | :01:36. | :01:43. | |
Pinch point we have got with infrastructure we are a victim of | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
our own success. Things that have been talked about for decades now we | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
really need to see them coming through. I believe the funding | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
through the City Deal will help bring those projects to fruition. | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
Earlier this year the Prime Minister announced the details of the ?250 | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
million city region deal for Aberdeen which will fund the | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
creation of an oil and gas technology Centre to help the alias | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
transition from an operations based to a hub for the trolley research | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
and development. The cash will also support emerging industries and key | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
transport infrastructure and, it is hoped, reeling billions in private | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
investment. The City Deal can lead to other money which might total ?2 | :02:27. | :02:33. | |
billion from other public sector sources in the private sector. I | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
believe it is going to make a real difference. The Inverness City Deal | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
had been trailed heavily last week by the Scottish Secretary. It is | :02:42. | :02:48. | |
no-show in the Chancellor 's budget deal on Wednesday has led some to | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
believe it might not happen on will emerge substantially watered down. | :02:53. | :02:55. | |
In the current climate I do not think they are likely to find | :02:56. | :02:58. | |
funding for many of these projects if the City Deal does not cover them | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
because capital spending is constrained as well as a two-day | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
revenue spending by all the austerity we have at the moment. For | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
these kind of projects if the City Deal doesn't come along and it is | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
highly unlikely they will ever happen. The Westminster government | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
dismisses any conspiracy theories and insists an announcement is | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
imminent at it will have two B before Thursday because that's when | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
the period again is an advance of the Scottish Parliament elections. | :03:30. | :03:31. | |
As the say, watch this space. In 2014, the UK and Scottish | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
governments agreed a City Deal with the eight local authorities | :03:36. | :03:38. | |
covering Glasgow and Clyde Valley. I'm joined by the former leader | :03:39. | :03:41. | |
of Glasgow City Council, Gordon Matheson, who's | :03:42. | :03:43. | |
about to become visiting professor at Strathclyde University's | :03:44. | :03:45. | |
Institute for Future Cities. The Glasgow one, leaders mode | :03:46. | :03:57. | |
experience of that than anywhere else in Scotland, by and large, has | :03:58. | :04:05. | |
it worked? Yes, it has. We kind of rogue the mould really. We're | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
Glasgow has led its great to see other cities in Scotland are | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
following. It is about achieving economic growth. The Glasgow City | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
Deal will grow the economy by 4% which will add 4.2 billion to | :04:18. | :04:25. | |
Glasgow 's economy and critically create 15,000 construction jobs plus | :04:26. | :04:27. | |
29,000 permanent new jobs. create 15,000 construction jobs plus | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
all this talk and it is all Georgian, of leveraging that you put | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
up some public money and get the equivalent or more, has that | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
happened in Glasgow? Yes, it is happening. The City Deal is a 20 | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
year programme and in Glasgow 's case it will be done over ten years | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
but to give you an example of how this is done, this might not sound | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
particularly sexy but it makes an impact. It is a major investment | :04:55. | :04:57. | |
going on in terms of Renee age across Glasgow which will create | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
land that can be a lot on which will be built 20,000 new jobs. Are these | :05:04. | :05:12. | |
Langfield sites? Yes, the amount of investment needed to the Kameni land | :05:13. | :05:19. | |
across the Clyde waterfront means it would be prohibitive for private | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
sector is to come in and invest. Is that public money or a mixture? | :05:24. | :05:32. | |
We want to boost the tourism trade from the ships that come in and also | :05:33. | :05:40. | |
to service offshore wind farms, right through Glasgow and North | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
Lanarkshire. That is being funded by the public sector. But there is a | :05:45. | :05:55. | |
times three leverage on that. The critical point... And the private | :05:56. | :06:02. | |
sector would do what? Build houses? Yes. Also, in the case of | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
Inverclyde, what they will do service offshore. It will enhance | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
the tourism trade. What we are looking to do is to create the | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
circumstances which allow for investment. That requires public | :06:16. | :06:22. | |
sector investment for it to happen. Do you think it is important...? In | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
Aberdeen, there is a focus, we will build a centre which will help | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
change Aberdeen's history as North Sea oil into a future of oil and gas | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
technology expertise. Is there something in Glasgow like that, that | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
is a permanent change to the nature of the Glasgow economy? I think that | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
our two. One is the change in terms of growth. To add ?2 million every | :06:49. | :06:55. | |
year is a step change. It will also increase tax, taken by the | :06:56. | :07:02. | |
government. It will create 29,000 new jobs. Another example is part of | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
the city jail in Glasgow being supporting new business growth. In | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
particular, years two and three. A lot of companies get support | :07:15. | :07:22. | |
initially. What year are you in now? The first funding started in 2015. | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
All the works in Glasgow will be over a 10-year period. There is | :07:28. | :07:37. | |
another very good example, being employed by colleagues at Glasgow | :07:38. | :07:39. | |
University. That involves bioscience, because there is a lot | :07:40. | :07:45. | |
of insights into how precise medicine can become. Glasgow is | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
leading the world on that. That's another example where, by investing | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
publicly, you can create the circumstances that allow for future | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
growth. I am going into dangerous territory here in asking a man from | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
Glasgow to advise what should happen in Edinburgh. What you think should | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
happen? I am delighted that what is happening in Glasgow is being | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
emulated by other cities. I am delighted that Edinburgh is pursuing | :08:13. | :08:18. | |
a City Deal. Also Dundee and Inverness. Some places already have | :08:19. | :08:30. | |
city deals in place. You can also get the transfer of significant | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
powers. It will not come of age if it simply transfers powers to | :08:36. | :08:44. | |
powers. It will not come of age if Holyrood. Am I talking to be future | :08:45. | :08:53. | |
mayor of Glasgow? I don't... But do you see the future of mayors? I see | :08:54. | :09:00. | |
a future in governments, so the extra power that cities are required | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
to build the economy is properly available. When Tony Blair was in | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
power, there was talk of devolving things like social welfare,. That | :09:11. | :09:17. | |
never really happened. Do you think there is a case for that? I think | :09:18. | :09:24. | |
the definition of both functioning powers, in terms of different | :09:25. | :09:33. | |
policy, because that is how the grow the economy and tackle inequalities. | :09:34. | :09:41. | |
So subsidiarity is the word we all like to use. I like to talk about | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
growth. And the way to do that is to get controlling powers out of | :09:48. | :09:53. | |
Parliament is into city regions. All right. Thank you for joining | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
Everything has to come to an end, sometime. | :09:57. | :09:58. | |
That's as true of political careers as it is of everything else. | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
Some will be ended in May by the voters. | :10:02. | :10:03. | |
But there is a group of MSPs who are exiting | :10:04. | :10:05. | |
retiring, gracefully, from public life, | :10:06. | :10:07. | |
including some who were at Holyrood at the very beginning. | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
Among the so-called 99 as, posing for posterity, Fiona McLeod from the | :10:11. | :10:24. | |
SNP. I do solemnly and sincerely declare... But she is standing down, | :10:25. | :10:32. | |
not contesting. That brings on a bout of the reminiscences. It kind | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
of worries me that every memory I have thought has been about me | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
crying in Parliament. And I am not a big baby, but it was things like | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
when we introduced the vote for 16 and 17-year-olds for the referendum. | :10:47. | :10:49. | |
When we passed the equal marriage bill. When we elected Nicola | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
Sturgeon as the First Minister. And I thought, why did it make me cry? | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
And it was because they were joyous occasions, things I had campaigned | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
for all my life. Mary Scanlon was there, too. Now she has made her | :11:07. | :11:14. | |
last speech in the chamber. She is also retiring. I left school at 13, | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
my father was a farm labourer and I left school with no qualifications. | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
I went to university as a single parent and by sheer hard work and my | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
circumstances, like a husband walking out on children, and they | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
were both under three, for some reason I have managed to get here. | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
So I wanted my last speech to say, if I can do this, you can do it. M S | :11:40. | :11:50. | |
So I wanted my last speech to say, P's tent one macro has -- MSPs have | :11:51. | :11:58. | |
time for reflection. Of course I could have done more, but I have | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
done my best and the people are always on about the Highlands and | :12:04. | :12:06. | |
Islands, but they do not have the strongest voice and they do need | :12:07. | :12:13. | |
champions. He was there for Labour. Now he too is ticking of the things | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
he's doing for the last time as a MSP and looking back on his time as | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
a health minister. Clearly it wasn't a time without controversy. Health | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
always isn't. I still think we made progress on the Labour -- under | :12:29. | :12:37. | |
Labour. There have not been major breaks in health policy in England. | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
We have a permanent revolution. There has been a lot of continuity. | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
The reality is that if you look at them both, between 99 and now, there | :12:48. | :12:54. | |
have been improvements. Now he is looking at what the future might | :12:55. | :13:03. | |
hold. I want to see more employment and social security powers. I hope | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
it will be about how we use those powers. The debate about the extent | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
of the powers will never go away. Back at the marina, some advice for | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
those about to throw themselves into Holyrood politics. Enjoy the | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
privilege you have been given, work hard, but understand that you will | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
have to work hard. This is not a nine to five, five day a week job. | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
It takes over your life, that in a way that is just such an enormous | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
privilege. The cliche is that all political careers end in failure. | :13:40. | :13:51. | |
Perhaps what our cohort of retiring M S P' is that in the end we will | :13:52. | :13:53. | |
judge them kindly. On Wednesday, you can watch the last | :13:54. | :13:54. | |
First Minister's Questions before the Scottish Parliament | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
is dissolved. We'll be back after | :14:00. | :14:00. | |
Easter, on 10th April, It all comes down | :14:01. | :14:08. | |
to this one chance. | :14:09. | :14:34. |