17/07/2016 Sunday Politics Scotland


17/07/2016

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

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After Friday's failed coup, the crackdown in Turkey begins

:00:42.:00:45.

with thousands of arrests and threats of retribution,

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including the death penalty for rebels.

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What does the turmoil mean for Turkey's future,

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Nato and the fight against Islamic State?

:00:52.:00:59.

I wish you all the best and I am supporting you all the way. Do I get

:01:00.:01:04.

a hug? Jeremy Corbyn's confident

:01:05.:01:07.

that his fans will ensure he's re-elected - but he tells us

:01:08.:01:09.

that the rules of Labour's leadership election are unfair

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and the party's national executive She was a "Remainer"

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but Theresa May's promised to deliver on the voters' verdict

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and take us out of the EU - but how quickly will Brexit come

:01:17.:01:20.

and what should it look like? Coming up on

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Sunday Politics Scotland: I'll be talking

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to the First Minister, And Labour MSP Neil Findlay will be

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explaining why he's launching Since we broadcast last week,

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a new Prime Minister, a new government, carnage in Nice

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and an attempted coup in Turkey. The unexpected is now

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commonplace, major news events But one thing that doesn't change

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here on Sunday mornings is that we always bring you the best

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and the brightest political panel in the business -

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Steve Richards, Isabel Oakeshott So Friday night's attempted army

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coup in Turkey failed and President Erdogan has moved

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ruthlessly to re-establish He says the coup was "a gift from

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God" because it gives him a reason A major clampdown on dissent is now

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widely anticipated, Let's get the latest

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from our Correspondent Is it underway? Is it expected to be

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pretty ruthless? Yes. It is underway. The crackdown has already

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taken place. Around 3000 soldiers have been detained including

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high-ranking generals and around 3000 judges have been dismissed from

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their posts. Many judges have also been detained. President Recep

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Tayyip Erdogan had already said that those behind the coup attempt would

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be paying a heavy price and that is what we are seeing at the moment.

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Many people think that the crackdown will further deepen. The government

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thinks that the movement of Fethullah Gulen is behind this

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attempt. That is something that Fethullah Gulen denies. He is a

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cleric based in Pennsylvania, Annex aisle who used to be on good terms

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with the government, and Mr Hird one himself. -- Mr Erdogan. Fethullah

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Gulen has said he has been involved includes himself, but he played no

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part in this one. Although the square would normally be packed with

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hundreds of tourists, the beauty of Istanbul being celebrated, but last

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night it was a different story, packed with hundreds of supporters

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of the government, chanting slogans like, God is great, in protest of

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the coup attempt. They adhered to the call coming from President

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Erdogan to take it out to the streets. They were jubilant because

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they felt empowered, in the part they played in suppressing the coup

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attempt. If there was a source of resistance to President is Erdogan,

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it was not the army, and I would suggest that he is going to take

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over the army, and he will have complete control. He was already

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pretty authoritarian before this happened. Is Turkey now in danger of

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a dictatorship? That is a question that many people asked. In Turkey

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and in the world. People who do not necessarily aligned themselves with

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the government policies were already cautious about Mr Erdogan's

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tendencies about getting more executive powers. It is no secret

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that President Erdogan once to change the parliamentary system in

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Turkey to a presidential system which would give him powers that no

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other president has seen before in Turkey. And now that he has managed

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to suppress this coup attempt, many people in Turkey fear that this

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could actually play into the hands of Mr Hird one, and turn the country

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into an alt. Chrissie, as you have said. -- way into the hands of Mr

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Erdogan. But on the other hand, Mr Erdogan's supporters are jubilant

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and they think that this was a victory of democracy. Yesterday the

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Turkish parliament convened an extraordinary session and all the

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opposition parties supported the government. The portrayed a stand

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against the coup attempt. The Prime Minister thanked them and said that

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this could be a threshold moment for Turkish politics but considering

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that Turkey is a polarised country and politics is divided, whether the

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government can bring everybody together after these 48 hours of

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trauma, it is a difficult task. They give very much. -- thank you very

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much. We're joined by the Foreign Affairs

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analyst, Tim Marshall. Let's look back at what happened

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here. The Turkish army, traditionally does not like Islamist

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leaning governments and has mounted three successful coups, turning

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Turkey to a more secular at two secular government. What was this, a

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gang that could not shoot straight or the keystone cops to make a bit

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of both. It was white, they did most of the right things but they did not

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have the depth above them. Above them, they had no support. They made

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two massive errors. They did not kill President Erdogan. That is the

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first thing you should do. I am not advocating it! It is a 101 guide to

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coups! But that is paragraph one, kill or at least capture the

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president. And shut down the media. They went to the state television,

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and in the 20th century, all the media was in one building and you

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would close it down. But they forgot that in the 21st-century, there was

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CNN Turkey still on a, and they did not close down social media, so Mr

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Erdogan, who hates social media and Twitter, pepper and --

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hypocritically gets onto Facebook and says to Turkey, get into the

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streets and because the coup is white and not deep, very soon the

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call to prayer goes out, and they know it is not the proper time, and

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it means going to the street. Within half an hour, the people outnumber

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the troops and the pendulum swings the other way. If Turkey faces a

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serious clamp-down, a move from authoritarianism to something

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bordering on dictator -- a dictatorship, this surely has huge

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obligations for Turkey's relations with America and the EU? And for the

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fight with Islamic State. This goes from being a domestic event to one

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with regional and geopolitical implications. And a Nato member.

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It's funny, we talk about him all the time, but as your correspondent

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It's funny, we talk about him all said, this is a parliamentary

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republic, where traditionally the president is simply a figurehead but

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because he is so dominant and has total control of the HK party, all

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he had to do was switch from one job to the next. And all the power went

:09:05.:09:08.

with him because of the atmosphere at not because of the law. But he

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tried last year to move the powers legally into his office. He is

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closing down the media, he is now getting rid of the remnants in the

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Army that art not with him, and he has the support of the mosques and

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parliament. It is becoming a democratic dictatorship, a phrase I

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came up with for the loss of itch in Serbia, you bring two new radio

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stations out that broadcast so loudly that free speech is still

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allowed, but it cannot be heard. Remember the Civil War was the

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Kurds? That will just be utterly ruthless. This is a hugely historic

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event in Turkey's history because previous army coups have won and he

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will now take out the army as an independent force and it will become

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much more authoritarian, perhaps even autocratic. Where does this

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leave Western relations with Turkey? I think we can agree that it is not

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going to join the European Union any time soon so we can scotch that one.

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I think the ultimate dilemma must be for Nato. It is a security

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organisation but it is also an organisation defined by certain

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values and practices and if President Erdogan responds to the

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coup attempt by tightening freedoms further, by intervening against the

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judiciary and the Armed Forces further, then there must be a

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dilemma at some stage for Nato. I thought it might have been telling

:10:53.:10:56.

that three or four hours, I don't know if Tim agrees, for the US at

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least, if not Nato, to say anything about the coup, when they did they

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did not mention President Erdogan by name. I don't know if that suggests

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they know what side there bread is buttered on and they were waiting to

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see if the coup would succeed. But it is a huge event for the West and

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Turkey. The state was founded on secular ideals. The Armed Forces

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have always been seen as an invigilator of government. I am

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right in saying that the Turkish president has never been

:11:30.:11:31.

commander-in-chief, officially, in the way that a US president would

:11:32.:11:36.

be. Or a French president. Many people think that what he wants to

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do is create an executive style French presidency. You would still

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have a parliament and a Prime Minister but it would be the

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president that matters, rather than just being head of state. Turkey has

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been so pivotal, first of all in dealing with the migrant crisis in

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the eastern Mediterranean, with the situation in Syria, and Islamic

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State, and in the region as a regional superpower that balances

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Iran and even Saudi Arabia. We don't know where this is going to lead

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now. And has been talk for a long time about how it is massively in

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the interest of the West to have a stable Turkey. It has not been

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stable for some time and it will not be, even if this coup was a somewhat

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silly, ill thought through coup, it is clearly destabilising and will

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have consequences for a long time to come. I would be interesting to -- I

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would be interested to hear from Tim whether the EU has some leveraged

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because Turkey's desire to join it. That dynamic, although clearly not

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the agenda in spite of the farcical things said during the referendum

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campaign, that gives the EU some leveraged in reshaping what happens

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in Turkey. You wonder if that is even on his mind. It will not be.

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But the president has so many domestic fish to fry, and that might

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not be a very good metaphor given what he is about to do. If he is

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about to reintroduce the death penalty, it becomes very difficult

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to talk about Turkey being part of the EU. What do our diplomats do? It

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is in our interest to encourage the dreamer but it does not look

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compatible with the way that things are being carried out. Remarkably,

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these events in Gneiss had been overshadowed by Turkey and yet it

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only happened on Thursday night and this is Sunday morning. I suggest

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that the reaction in France to Nice is going to be very different.

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Charlie Hebdo, the Bataclan, there was great solidarity and it brought

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France together. I think this is different because people have had

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enough and it is different because there are clear security questions.

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No barrier on the promenade. We are told that there was a barrier when

:14:02.:14:05.

the military parades took place but it was removed after words, and

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already the politicians are ganging up on the government and this is

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becoming a major pre-election issue. That's right. The election is next

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year and Marine Le Pen is positioning herself very strongly

:14:19.:14:21.

with the National Front. There is a public divided on how to approach it

:14:22.:14:26.

and even if this is not Islamic State, and I am not convinced that

:14:27.:14:31.

it is, it happens in the context of Islamic State and of mass slaughter

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in the name of something. It is another chip away at our freedoms.

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And that is, in itself, a success. They are going to continue. I

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believe the rise of the right is far from Peking. And it plays absolutely

:14:46.:14:50.

into next year's presidential election. Going back from the

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presidential election, that all comes into what the EU is going to

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look like. We are in a state of flux. You are old enough, forgive

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me, Andrew, to know that everybody always says it has never been as bad

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as now and it is always untrue. But it is actually more corrugated than

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I have ever known it. And you may agree. I do agree.

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The Conservatives completed their leadership contest

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in a matter of days, Labour's has barely begun.

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There are now two candidates standing against Jeremy Corbyn -

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Angela Eagle and Owen Smith - but the Labour Leader has told us

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that the rules which exclude recently signed up members

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from voting in the contest are unfair and he wants

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the party's national executive to change them.

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Adam Fleming went for a walk in the park with Mr Corbyn.

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This is the lake that was built here in the 19th century,

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rather strange lake on the top of the hill.

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I went for a stroll round the Labour leader's

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favourite local beauty spot - Finsbury Park in north London.

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Do you have time to take a casual stroll with a journalist

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Yes, because doing things in a relaxed way is important,

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and doing other things is important, so going to a park, being in your

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However busy I am, my allotment is tended.

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It's in good order, we had a good crop of broad beans and we ate

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A slightly less relaxing part of his week.

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At a meeting of Labour's national executive on Tuesday,

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Jeremy Corbyn secured an automatic place in the leadership election.

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But he's not happy with new rules that say people who joined the party

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There's going to be some quite intense discussions over the next

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few days, I suspect, and I hope our party officials

:16:45.:16:47.

and National Executive will see sense on this and recognise

:16:48.:16:50.

that those people who have freely given their time and money to join

:16:51.:16:55.

the Labour Party should be welcomed in and given the opportunity to take

:16:56.:16:58.

part in this crucial debate, whichever way they decide to vote.

:16:59.:17:01.

I'm hoping there will be an understanding that it is simply

:17:02.:17:07.

not very fair to say to people that joined the party in the last six

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months, "sorry, your participation is no longer welcome

:17:12.:17:14.

because we are having a leadership contest."

:17:15.:17:20.

In the next few days, various Labour factions will be

:17:21.:17:22.

racing to sign people up as registered supporters,

:17:23.:17:24.

It costs ?25, not ?3 like in the last contest.

:17:25.:17:33.

For people who can't afford the 25 quid, what would you suggest

:17:34.:17:36.

If they can't afford the ?25, what they do?

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It seems to me the ?25 bar is quite high and not really reasonable.

:17:43.:17:46.

A lot of people have said to me, people stop me in the street saying,

:17:47.:17:50.

"I would love to vote in this election but I can't afford ?25."

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He is also disappointed that virtually all local party meetings

:17:56.:17:58.

have been suspended over fears of intimidation.

:17:59.:18:03.

I haven't stopped party meetings taking place and I actually

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I think party meetings should take place.

:18:06.:18:10.

Intimidation of any sort by anybody is absolutely wrong,

:18:11.:18:15.

but to cancel meetings because of the perception that

:18:16.:18:18.

intimidation might take place I think is a big mistake.

:18:19.:18:22.

The issues appear to be that where meetings have taken place,

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far more people have attended than were expected and so there has

:18:26.:18:28.

been issues about how people can get in the room,

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whereas there's a fairly simple answer to that -

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Talking of meetings, who was he with when Theresa May

:18:34.:18:40.

was taking over as Prime Minister earlier this week?

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I was with an all-party group, including Conservatives,

:18:46.:18:47.

talking to two of the Miami five who had been in prison

:18:48.:18:50.

in Miami and were released by the court decisions of USA

:18:51.:18:52.

and the new rapprochement with Cuba and actually welcoming the fact

:18:53.:18:55.

there had been an agreement reached in Cuba.

:18:56.:19:02.

I was actually with Conservatives and Labour people.

:19:03.:19:06.

I was there for about 20 minutes, then I went back to my office

:19:07.:19:09.

And so you felt that was a good use of your time at that point

:19:10.:19:15.

when the country was transitioning from one Prime Minister to another?

:19:16.:19:17.

Informing yourself by listening to people from all kinds of walks

:19:18.:19:22.

This morning I was on the phone to friends in Istanbul and Ankara

:19:23.:19:28.

And so when an issue happens anywhere in the world,

:19:29.:19:35.

obviously I read all the briefings that I've been given,

:19:36.:19:38.

obviously I follow the news and information, but also I quite

:19:39.:19:41.

often know people in different places around the world so I call

:19:42.:19:44.

Can I get a hug for that?

:19:45.:19:48.

He also seems to know a lot of people in this park.

:19:49.:19:57.

What do you think about Angela Eagle and Owen Smith

:19:58.:20:00.

I have been trying to unregister from the Green Party so that I can

:20:01.:20:14.

register with the Labour Party so that I can support you.

:20:15.:20:16.

We were walking round with Jeremy Corbyn,

:20:17.:20:21.

What did you shout out when you saw him?

:20:22.:20:25.

I don't know what I said, something awful like...

:20:26.:20:28.

Something like "you've ruined the Labour Party".

:20:29.:20:33.

Something like, "step aside and stop ruining the Labour Party," I guess.

:20:34.:20:36.

And I couldn't let Jeremy go without introducing him to the craze

:20:37.:20:41.

sweeping the nation, Pokemon Go.

:20:42.:20:44.

He didn't seem that bothered but then he's playing a much bigger

:20:45.:20:47.

game, trying to hold onto his job, and that's no walk in the park.

:20:48.:20:50.

Our work this morning has not been in vain.

:20:51.:20:56.

And a longer version of that interview with Jeremy Corbyn

:20:57.:20:58.

We're joined now from Salford though by the Shadow

:20:59.:21:02.

Education Secretary, Angela Rayner.

:21:03.:21:09.

Welcome to the programme. Jeremy Corbyn wants to allow people who

:21:10.:21:16.

joined in the last six months of your party to vote, he thinks the

:21:17.:21:22.

?25 fee is too high. Isn't it just typical of the chaos Labour is now

:21:23.:21:26.

in that you are holding a leadership contest before you have agreed

:21:27.:21:32.

rules? Good morning, I think it's important we recognise the Labour

:21:33.:21:35.

Party is transformed with now over half a million members joined, which

:21:36.:21:41.

is fantastic. We are the largest democratic social party across

:21:42.:21:44.

Europe. For me it is about democracy. I asked about the rules,

:21:45.:21:51.

should you be having a contest before you have agreed rules? The

:21:52.:21:55.

rules were decided at the NEC meeting which lasted seven hours,

:21:56.:22:00.

quite a lengthy marathon... You want to change them? People need to

:22:01.:22:06.

reflect upon the current situation and there has been outrage. 130,000

:22:07.:22:11.

people have joined since the referendum, and we have got to give

:22:12.:22:16.

them the opportunity to have their voice heard. Have these 130,000 that

:22:17.:22:22.

joined after the referendum been properly vetted? That is a situation

:22:23.:22:28.

that the NEC and our party has got to approve and go through. We did it

:22:29.:22:33.

last time, we had a huge number of people join our party recently. Have

:22:34.:22:41.

that number been vetted or not? You have got to allow democracy. What we

:22:42.:22:48.

do is we ensure we get more people, more staff, more ability to deal

:22:49.:22:53.

with that issue because democracy is important, it is enshrined. Hold on,

:22:54.:22:57.

you are starting the leadership campaign and you still haven't

:22:58.:23:01.

vetted those who may be allowed to vote, that's what I mean by chaos,

:23:02.:23:06.

if not fast. I don't think it's chaotic to have over half a million

:23:07.:23:10.

people join our party and want to have a say, it is a positive step.

:23:11.:23:17.

It is if you cannot vet them come you don't know if they are members

:23:18.:23:20.

of the Socialist workers party, the Greens, the Communists, the National

:23:21.:23:26.

front, the Conservatives. You have no idea. We have 130,000 people who

:23:27.:23:32.

have joined in the last three weeks, which the Conservative Party have

:23:33.:23:37.

around 150,000 members per se. We have over half a million members so

:23:38.:23:41.

we are doing a great job. The Trotskyists and other groups you are

:23:42.:23:45.

suggesting may be trying to join our party, they are not in the great

:23:46.:23:49.

numbers we see at the moment. It is important to give people a say about

:23:50.:23:53.

the future of our country and party. I love democracy. Will you

:23:54.:24:00.

definitely be voting for Mr Corbyn this time because you didn't last

:24:01.:24:05.

time. No, I supported Andy Burnham last time, but I recognise Jeremy

:24:06.:24:10.

Corbyn had a significant mandate to lead our party. I don't think it's

:24:11.:24:14.

time to have a leadership contest. I will not be nominating another

:24:15.:24:20.

candidate, I will be recognising our democratically elected leader. I

:24:21.:24:25.

asked who you will be voting for. I will be supporting -- our

:24:26.:24:38.

democratically elected leader. Can you say the words, I will vote for

:24:39.:24:43.

Jeremy Corbyn? I have made it clear what my position is, and that's

:24:44.:24:46.

about democracy and our members making... Are you or aren't you? I

:24:47.:24:56.

have told you I will be supporting our democratically elected leader of

:24:57.:25:00.

our party. I want to hold the Government to account, we have a

:25:01.:25:06.

bill coming up on Tuesday... I'm puzzled, are you voting for Mr

:25:07.:25:13.

Corbyn? Your viewers want to see us holding this Government to account.

:25:14.:25:16.

I have tried to answer your question but you don't want to listen to my

:25:17.:25:22.

answer. Could you name the person you will be voting for in this

:25:23.:25:27.

election? I will be listening to our membership and in the meantime

:25:28.:25:31.

holding the Government to account and supporting our democratically

:25:32.:25:34.

elected leader of our party, which is Jeremy Corbyn. A new poll shows

:25:35.:25:44.

Theresa May leads Jeremy Corbyn 58% to 19, on who would make the better

:25:45.:25:49.

Prime Minister. It shows 40% of Labour voters think Theresa May

:25:50.:25:53.

would make a better Prime Minister. Why are you backing, if you are, I'm

:25:54.:25:59.

still not clear, why are you backing a loser? Our party is seen as quite

:26:00.:26:04.

divided and divided parties never win elections. We don't disagree on

:26:05.:26:10.

policy points, we have to get our policy points across to the

:26:11.:26:13.

electorate and then they will decide. Theresa May has the

:26:14.:26:17.

challenge of bringing her Conservative Party together. There

:26:18.:26:21.

was no competition, no democracy within the Conservative Party in

:26:22.:26:25.

terms of who they wanted as leader. She has a job to do because the

:26:26.:26:29.

country has never been more divided than it is now and that's directly

:26:30.:26:35.

as a result of the Conservatives. You all seem to have a job to do.

:26:36.:26:41.

Speaking of Mrs May, is the Labour Party now the nasty party? No,

:26:42.:26:47.

Theresa May had it right, the Conservatives continue to be so.

:26:48.:26:51.

They are cutting education funding by up to 8% in this Parliament, they

:26:52.:26:56.

want to prioritise the NHS and have already been creeping that in. They

:26:57.:27:02.

are not on the side of ordinary people in this country. Theresa May

:27:03.:27:06.

has said she wants the Conservatives to be a party for everybody and

:27:07.:27:10.

working people across the country. Now her words have to be matched by

:27:11.:27:17.

actions. Let me ask you this about Labour. Meetings of constituency

:27:18.:27:21.

Labour parties have been suspended from fear of intimidation. There are

:27:22.:27:28.

death threats and violence, a brick thrown through the window of the

:27:29.:27:32.

office block where Angela Eagle's constituency is housed. Police have

:27:33.:27:39.

had to investigate. I ask again, is it not Labour that is the nasty

:27:40.:27:45.

party? I think any act of abuse and intimidation is disgusting in

:27:46.:27:48.

politics and many politicians from all sides of the house have had

:27:49.:27:51.

death threats and threats of violence, and that has got to be

:27:52.:27:55.

stamped out of a modern democracy. Why is it in the Labour Party this

:27:56.:28:02.

is happening? It happens across the spectrum in politics and it is

:28:03.:28:05.

disgusting. But it cannot stop democracy either, we have got to

:28:06.:28:10.

continue to uphold and enshrined our democracy in everything we do

:28:11.:28:14.

because it is important. It means a lot to a lot of people but you

:28:15.:28:18.

cannot win on democracy by abusing, threatening and intimidating the

:28:19.:28:22.

other side of the argument. You have got to have a constructive debate

:28:23.:28:26.

and people have got to have their democratic right to vote. Thanks for

:28:27.:28:29.

being with us this morning. Now, despite signing up

:28:30.:28:32.

to David Cameron's Remain strategy, our new Prime Minister has put

:28:33.:28:34.

navigating the UK's departure from the EU and retaining

:28:35.:28:37.

the union at the centre We're joined now by the Conservative

:28:38.:28:39.

MP and former attorney-general The appointment of three key Cabinet

:28:40.:28:43.

positions to Brexiteers - Boris Johnson, David Davis,

:28:44.:28:45.

and Liam Fox - reflects this. A few days before his appointment,

:28:46.:28:48.

the Brexit Secretary set out how he'd proceed

:28:49.:28:50.

with separation from the EU. He said triggering new trade talks

:28:51.:28:55.

were a priority and wanted the UK

:28:56.:28:57.

to negotiate free-trade deals with Mr Davis believes the UK should not

:28:58.:28:59.

budge on control of our borders, but the tariff-free access to the EU

:29:00.:29:07.

single market is still his preferred The Brexit Secretary

:29:08.:29:10.

acknowledged that talks with the Scottish, Welsh, and

:29:11.:29:16.

Northern Ireland governments And Theresa May made the first step

:29:17.:29:18.

on Thursday, telling Nicola Sturgeon in Edinburgh

:29:19.:29:23.

that she is willing to listen to options on Scotland's future

:29:24.:29:25.

relationship Mrs May said Britain

:29:26.:29:26.

would not rush into Brexit negotiations and would need

:29:27.:29:33.

some time to prepare. However, Mr Davis said

:29:34.:29:35.

Article 50 should be and mean Britain would be out

:29:36.:29:37.

of the EU by January We're joined now by the Conservative

:29:38.:29:46.

MP and former attorney-general Dominic Grieve, who campaigned

:29:47.:29:52.

for Remain, and the Labour MP who chaired the Vote Leave campaign,

:29:53.:29:55.

Gisela Stewart. We are joined by Dominic Grieve and

:29:56.:30:04.

the chairman of the boat Leave campaign, Gisela Stuart. -- Vote

:30:05.:30:15.

Leave. As Theresa May delivered? I think she has. I think it was

:30:16.:30:18.

important that you made clear that Brexit meant Brexit. We had to make

:30:19.:30:25.

a clear that there was no second referendum in the offering. That

:30:26.:30:29.

required certainty for the country. Are you satisfied with that? I am

:30:30.:30:32.

completely satisfied with her approach, yes. It is clear that the

:30:33.:30:37.

vote, as expressed in the referendum, has to be respected. We

:30:38.:30:41.

have to take forward a programme for removing the United Kingdom from the

:30:42.:30:46.

EU. Really that is going to be an immensely comported process and it

:30:47.:30:51.

also carries with it economic risks, certainly in the short to medium

:30:52.:30:55.

term. I am also open-minded as to how one best does that. I think

:30:56.:31:00.

we're going to have to respond to events as well as trying to shape

:31:01.:31:04.

them. We have seen a blueprint published by my friend and

:31:05.:31:09.

colleague, David Davis, about Britain's outside the EU. I expect

:31:10.:31:15.

that 99.9% of conservatives would subscribe to that but getting to it

:31:16.:31:19.

is more congregated. We need to unpick this bit by bit. When do we

:31:20.:31:23.

trigger article 50? You need to go in reverse, like a reverse accession

:31:24.:31:30.

process. The most important thing is trade negotiations. As I understand

:31:31.:31:36.

that you cannot have a bilateral agreement unless you have notified

:31:37.:31:45.

Article 50. But you must have some idea of the time? The sooner the

:31:46.:31:51.

better. When do you think we should trigger article 50. I think we

:31:52.:31:55.

should trigger at when there is some clarity as to what the scope of the

:31:56.:31:58.

negotiations that will follow will be. This is the first big hurdle.

:31:59.:32:03.

Clearly if our European partners do not want to negotiate with us at

:32:04.:32:09.

all, even informally, prior to triggering Article 50, that might

:32:10.:32:12.

presents difficulties but from the point of view of the Prime Minister,

:32:13.:32:16.

she will make up her own mind. Actually getting some clear idea of

:32:17.:32:20.

what it is that the United Kingdom is seeking in terms of a future

:32:21.:32:22.

relationship is going to very important. And I think it is

:32:23.:32:28.

impossible to give a particular time frame. But I agree with Gisela

:32:29.:32:33.

Stuart. But the time frame has to work and it has to be done in good

:32:34.:32:38.

time for the 2020 election, so you can work back from that. I think you

:32:39.:32:42.

can, but I think that she needs, the Prime Minister needs to be given

:32:43.:32:46.

maximum flexibility about this because boxing herself in to how she

:32:47.:32:50.

goes about what is going to be one of the most difficult political

:32:51.:32:52.

transformations this country has gone through in modern times, I

:32:53.:32:56.

think that requires pragmatism. Does it require a vote of Parliament to

:32:57.:33:01.

trigger Article 50? Not necessarily. Let's come back to something. This

:33:02.:33:06.

is not just about our relationship with the EU, it is our relationship

:33:07.:33:10.

with the rest of the world. Triggering Article 50 has also been

:33:11.:33:18.

interpreted into how we talk with other countries. But we can talk

:33:19.:33:23.

with them without concluding deals? But in terms of negotiations, there

:33:24.:33:27.

comes a point that to make it meaningful, you have to trigger it.

:33:28.:33:33.

But I want to ask you, do we need a vote in parliament to trigger

:33:34.:33:38.

Article 50? Undoubtedly. It is a matter of convention. The idea that

:33:39.:33:42.

a government could take a decision of such massive importance to the

:33:43.:33:46.

United Kingdom without Parliamentary approval, it seems to me to be

:33:47.:33:49.

extremely far-fetched. It is not about law. It is about convention

:33:50.:33:55.

and reality. Do you agree? I can see the arguments from both sides but I

:33:56.:33:59.

don't think you absolutely have to do it. We have not got a lot of

:34:00.:34:03.

time, would you vote for triggering Article 50? Yes. I have made it

:34:04.:34:08.

quite clear that the result of the referendum must mean that we have to

:34:09.:34:14.

be willing to embark on the process. I put in one rider to that which is

:34:15.:34:18.

that it seems to me that any sensible decision has to be made at

:34:19.:34:23.

the time you make it. But that is not a suggestion that I am going to

:34:24.:34:28.

suddenly decide not to support triggering Article 50, but

:34:29.:34:31.

triggering Article 50 is an important political step to withdraw

:34:32.:34:34.

from the EU. One has to keep that in mind. Do you worry that people like

:34:35.:34:39.

Dominic Grieve are teeing themselves up to call for a second referendum

:34:40.:34:44.

on the nature of the deal we will do? I do. I think if there is one

:34:45.:34:47.

on the nature of the deal we will thing the European Union is very

:34:48.:34:50.

good at, it is that when political necessity is in the interest of both

:34:51.:34:54.

sides, they are capable of rewriting the rules. So the European Union

:34:55.:34:59.

itself has to look at the problems it faces, and then at what the best

:35:00.:35:05.

deal is. There is a danger that those who do not like the outcome of

:35:06.:35:08.

the referendum get themselves hooked on Article 50, rather than saying

:35:09.:35:12.

that there is a new reality out there and we need to deal with that

:35:13.:35:17.

in the interests of the United Kingdom. If you could bring it

:35:18.:35:20.

about, you would have a second referendum, wouldn't you? Not

:35:21.:35:25.

necessarily. The justification for having a second referendum is if the

:35:26.:35:29.

circumstances that prevail at the time and justify it because there is

:35:30.:35:33.

some legitimate question to put to the electorate. I am very wary of

:35:34.:35:37.

circumscribing oneself. The referendum is no different from the

:35:38.:35:41.

general election in this sense. It is a statement at the time of what

:35:42.:35:44.

people want in terms of the way policy is taken forward. If people's

:35:45.:35:48.

opinions change, it would be extraordinary. And I think the only

:35:49.:35:54.

way you can judge that is by looking and listening to what people are

:35:55.:35:58.

saying to you. Opinion polls can measure it. Like the opinion polls

:35:59.:36:04.

that told you your site was going to win the referendum? I am not sure I

:36:05.:36:09.

ever believe those polls. But they did. If you take a decision on the

:36:10.:36:16.

base of those polls... But what is the question that one might be

:36:17.:36:20.

asking. What the public have asked us to do is quite clear. They have

:36:21.:36:30.

given, by a majority of 1.2 million people, not insubstantial, they have

:36:31.:36:35.

said they want a fundamental change to the UK's relationship with the EU

:36:36.:36:39.

and they see that relationship as being one where we are outside of

:36:40.:36:43.

it. I have to respect that. And we have not got much time so I am going

:36:44.:36:48.

to interrupt. You have had a good save. Gisela Stuart, here is the

:36:49.:36:53.

point. There is a lot of people on the Labour side listening to Dominic

:36:54.:36:57.

Grieve and nodding their heads. Owen Smith, one of the leadership

:36:58.:37:01.

contenders, he basically wants a second referendum, and you are going

:37:02.:37:04.

to have to start gearing up for that. Do you fear that this could be

:37:05.:37:07.

foisted upon you? I think it would that. Do you fear that this could be

:37:08.:37:10.

be a disastrous step because both political parties need to search why

:37:11.:37:15.

they were so out of step with the electorate, particularly the Labour

:37:16.:37:18.

Party. It is a Parliamentary democracy were we get elected to do

:37:19.:37:22.

a job and that is to either hold the government to account or to be the

:37:23.:37:25.

government. We have asked them and they have reflected, in large

:37:26.:37:30.

numbers, they have said that we want to leave. And they expect us to get

:37:31.:37:34.

on with the job. I am sorry to rush you but we have been short of time.

:37:35.:37:37.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:38.:37:39.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland and Wales, who leave us

:37:40.:37:49.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:37:50.:37:51.

Nicola Sturgeon tells this programme Theresa May did not tell her

:37:52.:37:56.

the British Government would block a second independence referendum.

:37:57.:38:04.

Labour's Neil Findlay is here to explain why

:38:05.:38:06.

And if all that's not enough for you,

:38:07.:38:09.

because Tory grandee and former Foreign Secretary

:38:10.:38:12.

Sir Malcolm Rifkind is here too, with some entertaining views

:38:13.:38:14.

on Boris Johnson, among other things.

:38:15.:38:23.

On Friday, Theresa May made her first visit to Scotland

:38:24.:38:26.

as Prime Minister and seemed to suggest that Article 50

:38:27.:38:28.

would only be triggered with the agreement

:38:29.:38:30.

Since then, there has been much speculation

:38:31.:38:33.

could it only go ahead with Scotland's backing?

:38:34.:38:39.

Such a move would put Nicola Sturgeon at the heart

:38:40.:38:41.

But it would be at odds with what the new Brexit Minister

:38:42.:38:45.

He has made it clear that he wants to see Article 50 enacted

:38:46.:38:50.

Since the First Minister has made it clear she is determined

:38:51.:38:57.

both positions surely cannot be tenable.

:38:58.:38:59.

Well, shortly before we came on air, Nicola Sturgeon came into the studio

:39:00.:39:02.

and I asked her if she believed she had a veto.

:39:03.:39:09.

I didn't use that word, but I do think Scotland's got a strong

:39:10.:39:18.

position right now. In the talks I had with Theresa May she said that

:39:19.:39:25.

she would listen to options that the Scottish Government brings forward

:39:26.:39:28.

to give effect to have Scotland voted within the wider UK context.

:39:29.:39:33.

After the meeting she said she would not trigger article 50 unless she

:39:34.:39:38.

thought she had a set of circumstances that were acceptable

:39:39.:39:40.

to the whole of the UK. But she didn't say that to you.

:39:41.:39:45.

It's an extension of what we talked about.

:39:46.:39:48.

I think we've got a window of opportunity that -- between what is

:39:49.:39:53.

back where we are now and the triggering of article 50, to see if

:39:54.:39:56.

there is a way of effectively squaring the circle, a way that

:39:57.:40:01.

Scotland can protect its relationship with the EU in line

:40:02.:40:04.

with how Scotland voted. I am not going to sit here today and

:40:05.:40:09.

say that is possible, there are significant challenges along the

:40:10.:40:14.

way, but I've always -- also said repeatedly that I'm going to examine

:40:15.:40:18.

all options to protect Scotland's's interests.

:40:19.:40:21.

But you would be in favour of Scotland and ended the UK staying as

:40:22.:40:25.

part of the single market? Of course. Is it your understanding

:40:26.:40:30.

that if the Scotland Government says that has to be a bottom line in

:40:31.:40:35.

whatever is being negotiated with Europe, that you could stop her

:40:36.:40:40.

triggering article 50 and you get that?

:40:41.:40:44.

I don't know did -- definitively what the answer to that is, we're in

:40:45.:40:48.

the bizarre situation where the UK Government doesn't even appear yet

:40:49.:40:52.

to know what relationship it is seeking to help with the European

:40:53.:40:56.

Union. I've had over the last few days since Theresa May became Prime

:40:57.:41:01.

Minister different ministers in her Government articulate different

:41:02.:41:04.

positions on whether or not the UK should remain in the single market.

:41:05.:41:08.

So I think we are at such an early stage of this process that it is not

:41:09.:41:12.

possible to answer these definitively.

:41:13.:41:17.

But did Theresa May says she would not trigger article 50 until she had

:41:18.:41:20.

you on board? She said she would listen to all

:41:21.:41:27.

options. Now, what exactly the interpretation

:41:28.:41:32.

of that turns out to be, we will have to wait and see. But we have a

:41:33.:41:37.

window of opportunity. We've already started work to look at, in these

:41:38.:41:42.

unprecedented time, whether there are ways of protecting Scotland's

:41:43.:41:48.

relationship within a UK context. Will that proved to be possible? I

:41:49.:41:52.

can say at this stage, but I've got a duty to examine all options.

:41:53.:41:57.

And if it proves impossible to protect the interests of Scotland,

:41:58.:42:02.

jobs, investment, universities, our rights as citizens, within the UK,

:42:03.:42:09.

then of course we have to have the option of considering independence

:42:10.:42:14.

on the table. Before we move on, I want to ask you

:42:15.:42:19.

something else about these discussions. She was very strong

:42:20.:42:24.

afterwards in saying she didn't think there needed to be another

:42:25.:42:31.

independence referendum. Did she, in your talks, say that the UK

:42:32.:42:37.

Government would block you holding another referendum?

:42:38.:42:40.

She didn't say she would block a referendum, and interestingly in the

:42:41.:42:43.

interview I had afterwards she didn't say that after. -- either.

:42:44.:42:50.

She said she didn't want Scotland to become independent, I don't think

:42:51.:42:54.

anybody's going to be surprised that that is her position. But we've also

:42:55.:42:58.

heard in recent days, the leader of the Scottish Conservatives, the

:42:59.:43:03.

Secretary of State for Scotland, saying they don't think it would be

:43:04.:43:12.

right if the UK blocked a referendum that wanted independence.

:43:13.:43:18.

But did she say what Ms Davidson said, that they would not do that?

:43:19.:43:25.

Our discussions were focusing on the process that is about to get

:43:26.:43:28.

underway in the aftermath of the Brexit phone. I said already that in

:43:29.:43:35.

the circumstances Scotland now finds itself in, which is facing exit from

:43:36.:43:42.

the EU against its will, if in these circumstances a Scottish parliament

:43:43.:43:44.

decided that the only way to protect our interests was to offer the

:43:45.:43:47.

Scottish people the choice of independence, I find it

:43:48.:43:50.

inconceivable that any UK Government stand on of that.

:43:51.:43:54.

You seem a bit unclear on whether you have been handed a veto over the

:43:55.:43:59.

triggering of article 50 or not. If you are asking whether I think

:44:00.:44:05.

Theresa May will never ever trigger article 50 unless we are saying I am

:44:06.:44:08.

happy with the direction the UK is taken, I don't know that is the

:44:09.:44:12.

case, but she did seem to indicate that she wanted, as I want, to see

:44:13.:44:17.

if we can find options that respect how Scotland voted, just as I

:44:18.:44:21.

respect how England and Wales voted. So I'm going to take that window of

:44:22.:44:25.

opportunity to see if we can find these options. That is in line with

:44:26.:44:31.

what I committed to doing in the morning after the referendum.

:44:32.:44:35.

Should it come to December when they might trigger article 50, and you

:44:36.:44:39.

are not satisfied, but you are not on board, and the British Government

:44:40.:44:44.

says, we are doing this anyway, realistically is there anything you

:44:45.:44:47.

can do? I did this out the morning after the

:44:48.:44:52.

referendum. I am also in parallel to this discussion is making sure that

:44:53.:44:55.

the Scottish Parliament is making preparations to have another

:44:56.:44:58.

independence referendum if we find ourselves in that position.

:44:59.:45:03.

But would you take that as a trigger point for a referendum?

:45:04.:45:06.

I don't want to get too far ahead, but of course that would be an

:45:07.:45:09.

option that I would have to to consider.

:45:10.:45:13.

What, in six months' time? Is whether we had found it

:45:14.:45:18.

impossible to protect Scotland's interests in the UK. I am going to

:45:19.:45:22.

play as far as I can, with a straight bat here, and come at this

:45:23.:45:25.

Scotland's interests. Scotland's interests.

:45:26.:45:33.

-- of protecting. But would you want a referendum of independence say in

:45:34.:45:37.

the first half of next year? I will have one if I come to a

:45:38.:45:39.

conclusion but I think that is in I will have one if I come to a

:45:40.:45:43.

the interests of Scotland. I've always said that. My job is to seek

:45:44.:45:48.

to protect Scottish interests. It would be up to the Scottish people

:45:49.:45:52.

to decide whether they thought that was the way to go.

:45:53.:45:57.

But it's up to you when it would be. Absolutely, I will seek to take

:45:58.:46:01.

these decisions as far as I possibly can in line with what I judged to be

:46:02.:46:05.

in the best interests of our economy, of business, of jobs, of

:46:06.:46:10.

our universities, of our freedom to travel. All of these interests that

:46:11.:46:15.

are no potentially seriously damaged by the Brexit vote. Where you

:46:16.:46:18.

offered or do you expect to be offered as a Government, as you

:46:19.:46:25.

personally, a formal role in the Brexit negotiations? I expect the

:46:26.:46:28.

Scottish Parliament to be fully involved. But you would be

:46:29.:46:35.

negotiating with Europe? This process, and I'm not trying to dodge

:46:36.:46:38.

these questions, but my ability to answer this question rests on the UK

:46:39.:46:42.

Government getting its act together. We don't yet know what shape this

:46:43.:46:46.

process is going to take. Theresa May gave me a commitment to the

:46:47.:46:52.

Scottish parliament being centrally involved in this process. So our

:46:53.:46:56.

officials are already talking to those of the UK Government as they

:46:57.:47:02.

begin to shape this process. But would you expect your officials to

:47:03.:47:05.

be involved in negotiations with Europe alongside David Davis? Was

:47:06.:47:12.

any formal offer made to you? Theresa May doesn't yet know what

:47:13.:47:16.

this process looks like from a UK perspective. She has said we will be

:47:17.:47:21.

centrally involved, but that extra bit of a commitment is that that is

:47:22.:47:27.

not an involvement in a process that just accept as inevitable Scotland's

:47:28.:47:32.

except from EU, it is a process that options that the Scottish Government

:47:33.:47:37.

bring forward will be is considered. Is one of the things you would want

:47:38.:47:42.

before you got on board the way Theresa May indicated, would you

:47:43.:47:46.

want separate Scottish powers over immigration? That's one of those

:47:47.:47:49.

issues were already, putting the Brexit vote to one side, there is a

:47:50.:47:53.

tension between what is in the entrance of Scotland and what

:47:54.:47:56.

appears to be the direction of the UK Government. We have a case now of

:47:57.:48:05.

a family... But I'm want to smack I'm looking for an indication of

:48:06.:48:08.

whether that is something you would want the power over. I'm not going

:48:09.:48:15.

to get into specifics, because we don't yet know what the UK

:48:16.:48:18.

Government is going to try to achieve or how this process is going

:48:19.:48:22.

to go forward. But as to the issue of freedom of movement, we are in

:48:23.:48:27.

the single market right now, we have freedom of movement, which is not

:48:28.:48:30.

just the right of people to come to this party is my country, but the

:48:31.:48:35.

right of all of us to go on travel and study in other countries,

:48:36.:48:38.

Scotland voted to retain to all of these rights and that is what I have

:48:39.:48:51.

got to achieve -- fight to achieve. In the more medium term, is it your

:48:52.:48:55.

idea that if you are to have another independence referendum, I think you

:48:56.:48:58.

said on this programme a couple of weeks ago you would like to have it

:48:59.:49:05.

before Britain actually left the EU. For that to work, you are presumably

:49:06.:49:10.

want some sort of commitment by the EU that Scotland would either never

:49:11.:49:16.

leave the EU or the fast track -- or be fast tracked back in. I think I

:49:17.:49:22.

did say this on this programme, of course it makes sense. I'm using the

:49:23.:49:29.

term "If". This is speculative at this stage, but if we are in the

:49:30.:49:32.

situation of considering independence again, of course makes

:49:33.:49:36.

sense for that to happen before the UK leads the EU.

:49:37.:49:40.

But if you don't get that commitment, it doesn't matter when

:49:41.:49:46.

you have a referendum. There are all sorts of unknowns and uncertainties.

:49:47.:49:49.

I'm in a position I did not choose to be in. My job as First Minister

:49:50.:49:54.

is to seek to navigate Scotland through these uncertainties. We

:49:55.:49:58.

don't net know what the timescale for the UK will be. We heard Philip

:49:59.:50:03.

Hammond say in the House of Commons last week he thought it would take

:50:04.:50:07.

six years for the UK to exit the EU. So some of the uncertainty we are

:50:08.:50:12.

facing just now draws inevitables on the referendum... The scenario...

:50:13.:50:17.

facing just now draws inevitables on The UK Government does not yet have

:50:18.:50:20.

a grip on where it wants to take its relationship. That Scotland could

:50:21.:50:25.

somehow leave or be fast tracked, has anyone in the EU given you any

:50:26.:50:31.

indication that might be possible? We are weeks away -- on from a

:50:32.:50:38.

referendum when there was massive uncertainty and you exit me to say

:50:39.:50:40.

we have absolute certainty! These are discussion we will be having.

:50:41.:50:46.

But nobody in Europe gave you any reason to believe that? Firstly, I

:50:47.:50:51.

was not asking for that commitment, I was going to make sure there was

:50:52.:50:55.

an understanding across Europe of the different positions Scotland was

:50:56.:50:58.

in and that we wanted a different outcome. But when I went to Europe,

:50:59.:51:04.

I found a warmth of response and an openness and sympathy that the

:51:05.:51:10.

Scottish Government did not find... But the commitment? I was not asking

:51:11.:51:15.

for hard and fast commitments. As we go through these process, I go back

:51:16.:51:18.

to what I said on the morning after the referendum, I will be frank with

:51:19.:51:22.

the people of Scotland about the opportunities and challenges we

:51:23.:51:27.

face. But we did not ask to be in this position, so we have to

:51:28.:51:30.

navigate the best way through for Scotland and that is what I remain

:51:31.:51:34.

focused on doing. Another big subject coming up, Trident, you are

:51:35.:51:41.

calling for a vote in the House of Commons to be delayed, why? Is it

:51:42.:51:45.

that you think there is a realist to prospect that you, together with

:51:46.:51:50.

other people, could stop it? -- a realistic prospect. I would love to

:51:51.:51:55.

think so. Whether it is tomorrow or at any point, the SNP will vote

:51:56.:52:03.

against its renewal. By delayed? We are still in a period of huge

:52:04.:52:07.

uncertainty for the principal party of opposition is in chaos, the party

:52:08.:52:11.

of government has been in chaos for the last few weeks, there has not

:52:12.:52:15.

been the opportunity to focus properly on the massive issues that

:52:16.:52:18.

are involved in a decision like Trident. Do you think there is a

:52:19.:52:24.

chance that enough MPs will vote against it? I would hope so but it

:52:25.:52:27.

will give people a chance to properly scrutinise this decision,

:52:28.:52:32.

which has not been, and I think it is wrong to have this decision as a

:52:33.:52:34.

way of playing games with the chaos is wrong to have this decision as a

:52:35.:52:38.

in the opposition, which I think is what the Tories are trying to do.

:52:39.:52:42.

Nicola Sturgeon, thank you very much.

:52:43.:52:43.

As Secretary of State for Scotland under Margaret Thatcher,

:52:44.:52:46.

then Defence and later Foreign Secretary under John Major,

:52:47.:52:48.

Sir Malcolm Rifkind has held some of the major offices of state.

:52:49.:52:52.

Shortly before we came on air, he came into our London studio.

:52:53.:52:58.

I'm curious as to what you make of what Theresa May has told Nicola

:52:59.:53:05.

Sturgeon at the end of last week, that she wants all the nations on

:53:06.:53:10.

board before she triggers Article 50. Do you interpret that as a veto?

:53:11.:53:15.

No, I don't and I don't think anyone else would seriously think it should

:53:16.:53:16.

be. The United Kingdom else would seriously think it should

:53:17.:53:21.

has to have the last word on our foreign policy and our relationships

:53:22.:53:24.

with the rest of the world. She is saying, I'm sure, that you

:53:25.:53:30.

understands that there is a specific Scottish dimension as well as Wales

:53:31.:53:34.

and Northern Ireland. Therefore, it is entirely reasonable that there

:53:35.:53:38.

should be constant dialogue with particularly Scotland and Northern

:53:39.:53:43.

Ireland on their view of the way things are going. So that the

:53:44.:53:46.

Scottish Government says, well, for example, we insist on retaining

:53:47.:53:52.

access to the single market and that is not what David Davis once, you

:53:53.:53:59.

think he rules? I don't think we should speculate at the beginning of

:54:00.:54:02.

this process, and the UK clop-mac will spend the next few months

:54:03.:54:07.

deciding what it is because heating, what its era of compromise might be,

:54:08.:54:12.

where it could be flexible, it will want to hear views from Northern

:54:13.:54:15.

Ireland, Scotland and Wales. It is the UK Government that must take

:54:16.:54:20.

that decision because it is the only body that it can take it as a

:54:21.:54:23.

perceived the needs of the whole of these islands. One other thing that

:54:24.:54:27.

Nicola Sturgeon said was that Theresa May did not say to her that

:54:28.:54:33.

if she planned another independence referendum, that the UK Government

:54:34.:54:39.

would try to block it. That is Theresa May, we have had Ruth

:54:40.:54:43.

Davidson saying the British... Should not block another referendum

:54:44.:54:45.

and we have David Mundell as well. Do you agree? The crucial point is

:54:46.:54:52.

that nobody, including Nicola Sturgeon, is pressing for a decision

:54:53.:54:57.

on a referendum or another referendum in the immediate future.

:54:58.:55:00.

They all realise, Nicola Sturgeon as much as Theresa May, that it would

:55:01.:55:05.

not serve any reasonable interest. All evidence indicates that Scotland

:55:06.:55:10.

as a whole does not want another referendum, only a minority of

:55:11.:55:14.

people see that as being appropriate, and I think Nicola very

:55:15.:55:17.

wisely has remembered, as we all did, that in the last referendum not

:55:18.:55:22.

only did the SNP lose quite seriously but also Scotland as a

:55:23.:55:25.

whole was deeply divided, families and communities were divided, a lot

:55:26.:55:30.

of unpleasantness, more than we are normally used to in Scotland, and I

:55:31.:55:33.

do not think Nicola wants to go through that again in the short to

:55:34.:55:39.

medium term. Yet, the issue still remains on whether the British

:55:40.:55:41.

Government should even consider blocking such a proposal. She said

:55:42.:55:48.

it might even be that she could not sit there would be one but it would

:55:49.:55:50.

be possible to have another independence referendum in the first

:55:51.:55:55.

half of next year. As I understand the legal situation, the UK

:55:56.:55:58.

Parliament would have to give approval before any referendum could

:55:59.:56:01.

be held on an issue of this kind and I didn't think anyone serious doubts

:56:02.:56:06.

that. Theresa May has already indicated that she believes... It is

:56:07.:56:13.

less than two years since we had a referendum, which came... But the

:56:14.:56:19.

point is, if Parliament blocked it, it would be explosive. But first of

:56:20.:56:24.

all there is not a proposal at this moment for any referendum to

:56:25.:56:27.

actually happen. Nicola Sturgeon has been very careful and she said the

:56:28.:56:32.

issue is on the table. She chooses her words carefully, unlike perhaps

:56:33.:56:35.

Alex Salmond, who is a bit more explosive on these matters.

:56:36.:56:38.

Something being on the table is a very diplomatic expression. I

:56:39.:56:44.

remember it from my time in the Foreign Office. You use these

:56:45.:56:46.

expressions when you do not want to commit yourself either way. You were

:56:47.:56:52.

Foreign Secretary. The new Foreign Secretary is Boris Johnson. We have

:56:53.:56:56.

already said that it is a risky appointment. Yesterday was a gamble.

:56:57.:57:01.

One that might pay off if he can reinvent himself. What advice would

:57:02.:57:08.

you give them dubbed him? I think Boris is a very intelligent guy, he

:57:09.:57:15.

is not like Donald Trump, he is very civilised and intelligent who could

:57:16.:57:17.

be a very good Foreign Secretary. But he has really made him made his

:57:18.:57:26.

name as a celebrity and you cannot be a Foreign Secretary, cowering at

:57:27.:57:29.

the serious problems of international diplomacy and at the

:57:30.:57:32.

same time expect to continue to be a celebrity. What does reinventing

:57:33.:57:37.

himself mean if you are Foreign Secretary? Less puzzled air? Fewer

:57:38.:57:45.

off-the-cuff remarks? -- less tousled hair. I would recommend him

:57:46.:57:49.

to have a haircut and tucking his shirt into the back of his trousers!

:57:50.:57:53.

But to be more serious, I think he has got to adopt a conversation that

:57:54.:58:00.

does not just get an enjoyable headline that cheers are so a Monday

:58:01.:58:04.

morning, he has to demonstrate he is conscious of the real issues. We are

:58:05.:58:09.

talking about the future of the Middle East, the war in Syria, what

:58:10.:58:14.

British policy will be on that, and about the future of our relationship

:58:15.:58:18.

with Russia. Crucial issues of that kind. One other person you have

:58:19.:58:26.

commented on, George Osborne, you seemed to regret he was leaving.

:58:27.:58:31.

Would you like Theresa May to bring him back? No, that decision has been

:58:32.:58:36.

taken. I said I was surprised, not surprised that he seems to be

:58:37.:58:42.

Chancellor of the Exchequer, but he is a real heavyweight, I personally

:58:43.:58:46.

think he has been a successful Chancellor and I think he would

:58:47.:58:52.

still love to contribute. I think Theresa May put him on the

:58:53.:58:56.

backbenches... You might enjoy the realisation from the time being. Why

:58:57.:59:02.

don't you be an adviser to Boris Johnson was like That is the Boris

:59:03.:59:06.

to decide! We will have to leave it there, thank you.

:59:07.:59:07.

Nothing better illustrates the turmoil in developing our

:59:08.:59:09.

political system than the state of the Labour Party.

:59:10.:59:12.

At a time when this country so desperately needs

:59:13.:59:14.

a strong opposition, they seem intent on publicly

:59:15.:59:16.

Well, I'm joined now by Labour MSP Neil Findlay,

:59:17.:59:22.

who will launch the Scotland for Corbyn campaign

:59:23.:59:24.

at a rally in Glasgow shortly after this programme.

:59:25.:59:29.

So, what exactly are you going to do? We will be gathering together a

:59:30.:59:36.

group of people, a large group, I expect, who will be getting

:59:37.:59:40.

themselves involved in organising the campaign might just acquitted a

:59:41.:59:43.

year ago is very successfully, and I look forward to that this afternoon.

:59:44.:59:48.

Be split in the Labour Party is hopeless at the moment, isn't it? I

:59:49.:59:53.

think it is very, very regrettable that this has happened. At a time

:59:54.:59:58.

when we have had the Tory Party on the ropes, the Prime Minister had

:59:59.:00:03.

resigned and what we should have been in there, putting the boot in

:00:04.:00:05.

to the Tory Party, finishing them off. Instead the Parliamentary Party

:00:06.:00:11.

turned on itself and I think that is hugely regrettable. Jeremy Corbyn's

:00:12.:00:18.

new Shadow Education Secretary was interviewed by Andrew Neil a few

:00:19.:00:24.

minutes ago and she would not even say she would vote for Jeremy Corbyn

:00:25.:00:27.

in the leadership election. This is hopeless, even the people replacing

:00:28.:00:31.

the people who have resigned do not seem to support Jeremy Corbyn. She

:00:32.:00:36.

stepped up to the plate and serve, unlike some others who deserted. I

:00:37.:00:42.

think there is great credit to people like her, loyal to the Labour

:00:43.:00:44.

Party, who stepped up to the plate. Everyone will have a decision to

:00:45.:00:49.

make as to who they support the leadership candidate. They are

:00:50.:00:52.

entitled to make that decision in a free and democratic election. I

:00:53.:00:56.

welcome a free and democratic election. If there is such an

:00:57.:01:05.

election and Jeremy Corbyn wins, what about the 80% of liver-mac MPs

:01:06.:01:11.

who do not support him? I think you might want to direct a question to

:01:12.:01:14.

some of them. -- Labour MPs. I hope they would respect the mandate, the

:01:15.:01:20.

views of the members, never forget they are the people who do the

:01:21.:01:22.

leafleting, do the phone calls, raise the money, work day in, day

:01:23.:01:28.

out, we in, week out for these MPs who give them the privilege to serve

:01:29.:01:32.

in Parliament. I think members should be respected in that

:01:33.:01:37.

framework that. If that happens there will be a split in the Labour

:01:38.:01:43.

Party. I hope not. I hope all candidates in this election and all

:01:44.:01:46.

their supporters will abide by the result, whoever wins, and we all get

:01:47.:01:50.

together and move forward. I certainly will be making that today.

:01:51.:01:57.

I hope that all the candidates and their supporters unite around that

:01:58.:02:01.

one principle that whoever wins, we gather round and support and move on

:02:02.:02:05.

and get on with the business of taking on the Tories and the SNP.

:02:06.:02:10.

There has only been a division in the Labour Party between people who

:02:11.:02:16.

believe that conference should decide everything, that the Liberal

:02:17.:02:24.

Party fish be mandated by the militia, and those who believe that

:02:25.:02:27.

MPs have a slightly different role, they are collected by millions of

:02:28.:02:32.

people, that they have some independent base. These divisions

:02:33.:02:37.

are in all parties. -- mandated by the membership. But the two views

:02:38.:02:43.

are not compatible any more. Be Conservative members last week

:02:44.:02:47.

complained that the Tory Party election was fixed, it really

:02:48.:02:50.

involves their members. These tensions within parties, that is

:02:51.:02:56.

what happens. But most of the Cabinet has not resigned whereas

:02:57.:03:00.

most of the Shadow Cabinet has. Of course, and that is the regrettable

:03:01.:03:06.

part of this. Yes, but it still looks hopeless. It should not be

:03:07.:03:07.

hopeless and that is what I think we looks hopeless. It should not be

:03:08.:03:12.

have to get home, all sides has two get home to the candidates, that the

:03:13.:03:18.

people who draft on our behalf are demanding that the Labour Party gets

:03:19.:03:23.

its act together and that this election clears the air and we move

:03:24.:03:25.

on, united together to do what we have to do, hold a dreadful

:03:26.:03:30.

Government to account. Neil Findlay, thank you very much.

:03:31.:03:34.

Perhaps it has always been true that people decide who to support or how

:03:35.:03:37.

to vote based on gut feelings, not on who has actually presented

:03:38.:03:39.

But it has been claimed that now we are living in an era

:03:40.:03:44.

of "post-truth" politics, so competing sides in the political

:03:45.:03:46.

debate don't even bother with complicated things

:03:47.:03:47.

Instead, it is said, they rely on slogans

:03:48.:03:51.

and spin to shore up support and win over doubters.

:03:52.:03:53.

Some have pointed to the Euro referendum as proof of that.

:03:54.:03:55.

Across the channel they are watching what we are up to.

:03:56.:04:12.

It's becoming a bit like Game of Thrones meets Monty Python...

:04:13.:04:16.

But there's another way of looking at the choice we've faced, a

:04:17.:04:22.

conflict between head and heart, facts and feelings.

:04:23.:04:24.

Did the former Chancellor believed his warnings about more austerity if

:04:25.:04:31.

we voted for Brexit? There will be a hole in the public

:04:32.:04:38.

finances. Taxes will have to go up, spending will have to be cut.

:04:39.:04:42.

And did they leave campaign think her claim about the cash the UK pays

:04:43.:04:47.

to Europe was the whole truth? Are we in an age of what some have

:04:48.:04:54.

called "post-fact politics"? I would say there is such a thing is

:04:55.:05:04.

that. My definition of it, because it is a loose area in terms of

:05:05.:05:09.

study, would simply be the use of barefaced lies and manipulation of

:05:10.:05:15.

the facts at either end of that sort of moral spectrum.

:05:16.:05:18.

What you are doing is isolating the of moral spectrum.

:05:19.:05:23.

best points of your argument, that has been done for hundreds of years.

:05:24.:05:26.

We all do that in our everyday lives. But there is a big difference

:05:27.:05:33.

between that and telling lies. There is a view that the big problem

:05:34.:05:38.

is we have forgotten how to have respect for, grown at political

:05:39.:05:41.

arguments. I think there has been an

:05:42.:05:46.

infantilisation, we have gone from the maturity of serious and lengthy

:05:47.:05:52.

reflection down to the idea of immediate, emotional response. I

:05:53.:05:56.

call that infantilisation because we are behaving less like adults are

:05:57.:05:59.

more like children. So basically, I think we need to

:06:00.:06:04.

grow up, and read to recognise that these are difficult matters, we need

:06:05.:06:06.

to think long and hard about them and we need to realise that other

:06:07.:06:12.

people have good intent, and not denigrate them all push aside their

:06:13.:06:17.

arguments by just misrepresenting them as demons or on the other side

:06:18.:06:20.

angels. But some say there is no such thing

:06:21.:06:25.

as post-fact politics. It is just sour grapes from the losing side.

:06:26.:06:30.

I think this is really lazy thinking, it is like saying that

:06:31.:06:34.

people don't accept your point of view other people are a bit silly or

:06:35.:06:40.

stupid in some way, and they just go for emotional responses while some

:06:41.:06:44.

other side is the truth and the facts. It seems to be what is really

:06:45.:06:47.

at stake here is not bad at all, what is happening is that if people

:06:48.:06:52.

cannot get their argument across, it is either because they are not

:06:53.:06:55.

addressing the real fears or issues that are in the mind of the other

:06:56.:07:00.

side, or they are just very bad at expressing it and the other side are

:07:01.:07:03.

very good at putting their figures out or they are very quick.

:07:04.:07:10.

Perhaps one defining moment of the EU referendum came from Michael

:07:11.:07:11.

Gove. I think the people have had enough

:07:12.:07:18.

of experts with organisations... Had enough of experts?!

:07:19.:07:23.

Organisations with acronyms saying they know best.

:07:24.:07:28.

What you are saying is I will give you a simple truth to a set of

:07:29.:07:32.

complex problems. The problem comes when there is genuinely a context

:07:33.:07:37.

problem to be solved, and in the area of politics you dug up much

:07:38.:07:40.

more conjugated than that. The problem has when you have a

:07:41.:07:46.

politician saying he has a simple solution, don't worry, what he is

:07:47.:07:51.

saying is "Don't think." I used to teach people how not to

:07:52.:07:56.

answer questions, and that felt like a smart thing to do because it

:07:57.:07:59.

allowed you to escape from difficult issues. But I think we are now

:08:00.:08:03.

entering an era where people would really respect a politician who came

:08:04.:08:07.

out and told it like it was, whether it was good news or bad news.

:08:08.:08:17.

A straight talker, who tells it like it is. That's exactly what his

:08:18.:08:22.

supporters see him as. Opponents, of course, say he is the ultimate

:08:23.:08:27.

"post-fact politician". If there is such a thing.

:08:28.:08:30.

Now it's time to look back at the events of the past week

:08:31.:08:33.

and see what's coming up in The Week Ahead.

:08:34.:08:40.

Here with me now are the journalists Katie Grant and Paul Hutcheon.

:08:41.:08:45.

Let's start with this whole Scotland and Brexit thing, Paul. Nicola

:08:46.:08:53.

Sturgeon was saying this veto is maybe not quite a veto, although she

:08:54.:08:57.

was open about saying she doesn't actually understand whether it is or

:08:58.:09:04.

not. I do think that the current situation benefits Theresa May more

:09:05.:09:09.

than the First Minister. If you think back a few days when it looked

:09:10.:09:13.

like there might be a Tory leadership contest, Theresa May was

:09:14.:09:16.

quite categorical that she wanted to trigger article 50 next year. I

:09:17.:09:22.

think what she said to Nicola Sturgeon a few days ago fits into

:09:23.:09:27.

that, she's given herself a bit more time to negotiate a UK wide deal.

:09:28.:09:31.

She is saying, oh K, if you think you can negotiate some sort of

:09:32.:09:36.

Scotland only package, let me see it, I will consider it, probably

:09:37.:09:40.

knowing it can never happen, and so I think it looks good for the Prime

:09:41.:09:45.

Minister. And she could perhaps use it, Katie, if she wants to restrain

:09:46.:09:53.

David Davis. Yes, I think Theresa May has been very astute in making

:09:54.:09:57.

her first visit up here. I think it was very nice to see her and Nicola

:09:58.:10:05.

Sturgeon sitting having a relaxed in a way conversation, and I think in

:10:06.:10:10.

the interview with Nicola Sturgeon earlier it was very refreshing to

:10:11.:10:16.

hear her say we don't really know. And so I think that sort of honesty,

:10:17.:10:20.

despite the truth and lies you've just been seeing, were actually help

:10:21.:10:25.

Nicola Sturgeon cement her position as somebody who is looking for the

:10:26.:10:31.

best in Scotland. Theresa May did not say, look, you cannot have a

:10:32.:10:36.

second independence referendum. No, because she is far too wise to say

:10:37.:10:42.

that. We've had with Davidsson saying the same thing, and David

:10:43.:10:48.

Mondo pretty much the same way. I don't think she's an expert on

:10:49.:10:55.

Scottish politics, and I think inevitably we will be having a

:10:56.:11:01.

second referendum. This idea of talking to EU partners about a third

:11:02.:11:04.

way for Scotland, I don't think that will result in anything substantial,

:11:05.:11:10.

legal or significant. And I think Nicola in about a year's time will

:11:11.:11:13.

probably look at it and think the only option is a second referendum.

:11:14.:11:23.

This turmoil in British politics doesn't involve tanks and shooting

:11:24.:11:27.

in the streets and bombing parliament. What do you think this

:11:28.:11:32.

could happen in Turkey now, there are fears that the president rather

:11:33.:11:37.

than thinking -- using this as a festival of democracy will simply

:11:38.:11:40.

use it to crack down on people he is cracking down on anywhere? What we

:11:41.:11:45.

are hearing sounds like with all these people being arrested but that

:11:46.:11:57.

is what is good happen. I think Mr Erdogan has shown himself very good

:11:58.:12:01.

at clamping down on what appears on the outside. It is a very troubling

:12:02.:12:06.

sort of situation here, because he actually -- he is not a person who

:12:07.:12:12.

you would think is not -- full of democracy, that's been very

:12:13.:12:14.

difficult for Turkey, and although nobody wants a military coup, nobody

:12:15.:12:19.

wants the place to become yet more restricted. But I suspect that what

:12:20.:12:26.

we hear will be a rather gentler version of what is naturally going

:12:27.:12:31.

on. We're taking a break for the summer, and we were good to have a

:12:32.:12:34.

crystal ball here for you to gaze into, but we couldn't afford it. So

:12:35.:12:40.

you have to imagine one. By the time we come to the autumn, what big

:12:41.:12:43.

things do you think will have changed in Britain? I think that

:12:44.:12:52.

there will be relative Tory unity, and I think the divisions you have

:12:53.:12:54.

seen in the Labour Party will be even greater than they are today. I

:12:55.:12:59.

would agree with that, I don't think the Labour Party's and to come

:13:00.:13:03.

together any time soon. I think the honeymoon period for Theresa May may

:13:04.:13:09.

be slightly over, people will be becoming slightly impatient about if

:13:10.:13:12.

we voted for Brexit, sort of, where is it? So I think we will be more...

:13:13.:13:20.

I think things will be less trouble than they are now. Split in the

:13:21.:13:27.

Labour Party? I think if Jeremy Corbyn wins, some moderates will

:13:28.:13:32.

form a new party. There will be on STP style split, as you saw in the

:13:33.:13:38.

early 1980s. Right, -- in a macro is DUP. -- STP. -- SDP style.

:13:39.:13:51.

Like both Parliaments, we're having a break over summer,

:13:52.:13:54.

but we'll be back again in September.

:13:55.:13:56.

They were yum. The children are going to love them.

:13:57.:14:13.

This week, Gregg and Chris show how spending less on food...

:14:14.:14:17.

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