19/02/2012 Sunday Politics South East

In the south-east, all work and no play, will pensioners be helped or

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1713 seconds

persecuted by the latest ideas to I'm Julia George and this is the

Sunday Politics in the South East. Coming up shortly:

The prayers of many South East local authorities are answered as

the Government intervenes to reverse the ban at council meetings.

With me in the studio today are Tim Luckhurst, Professor of Journalism

at Kent University and Paul Clark, former Labour MP for Gillingham and

Rainham. Unemployment across South East is

up. Kent and Medway has seen one of the biggest rises in recent months.

Three times as many people lost their jobs in January compared to

December. Young people in Kent are the worst affected. Nearly a third

of the jobless in the Kent County Council are under 24. More than

9,000 are signing on. Tim Luckhurst, with your students,

how do you help them get a job? and the size to them from the very

beginning of the decree that employability is as important as

academic ability, in making sure you have a career. They also

emphasise that if you do not get those Kate -- keep employability

skills, being unemployed for a year between 18 and 24 can have a long-

term effect, so we stress to them to learn the academic staff but

also the key employability skills. This is another worrying trend, the

number of people out of work for more than a year. Some of the must

despair that they will ever get a job again, what does that do to

someone? We saw this in the Medway towns when we saw the dockyard and

engineering companies closing. People were unemployed for a long

period of time, totally demoralising. The problem we have

today is that their policies being followed which give no hope to the

economy coming out of the recession and helping to create jobs as it is

is the responsibility of any government to do. We will be back

with jobs later on. Should politicians pray? Three

simple words, one massive row. In a statement to the Sunday Politics

South East, the Bishop of Rochester predicted earlier in the week that

a High Court ban on formal prayer during council meetings wouldn't

last. He told us, "many are not content with this decision and we

will not, therefore, have heard the last of the matter." Turns out he

was right. The Government has reversed the High Court ruling that

might please practising Christians and we have more of them than any

other part of the country. The Mayor of Folkestone Susan Wallace

told us, "This news has made my day. We can keep our tradition that's

been going on 700 years." But should the Church of England

continue to have a special status in our political life? Joining our

discussion from our Westminster studio is Keith Porteus Wood of the

National Secular Society. Thank you are joining us. Plenty of

people will be watching us this lunchtime having returned from

church, they are practising Christians in a Christian country,

and they will be delighted that prayers are back on the agenda.

What is your message to them? Church attendance is in terminal

decline, only one in 15 of the population are going to church. I

don't think the Secretary of State, evangelical though he is, at his in

a position to overturn these rulings. He has advised local

authorities that his act, the localism Act, may well, or in his

opinion does overall -- overruled the continual -- the particular act

that we challenged. Our lawyers are saying the Secretary of State is

long. I have had very senior lawyer has come to me and say that in the

last couple of days -- the Secretary of State is wrong. This

is due to be seen out in the courts and it will be challenged. The

National Secular Society will continue to take every opportunity

it will to challenge it. This is not being not a liberal, it is

about saying there is a time and a place for everything. We suggested

prayers before council meetings or periods of silence during council

meetings, both of which were rejected by the council we took to

the High Court. Let's just be really clear about one thing. You

will be eagerly challenge Eric Pickles if he has -- legally

challenged Eric because if he believes he has reversed this?

is all breaking news, I have an appointment with our lawyer's first

thing tomorrow. Certainly in principle, we will do everything we

can to challenge it and we think he is wrong. Let's pick up on the idea.

You do not answer the question about what the practising

Christians might feel, you just said that there were not many of

them so their opinions don't matter. There are lot of people who feel

strongly about this as a tradition for the country, what is wrong with

that? There is nothing wrong with tradition. Because of the change of

society, I think that when people are doing public duty, religion

should not be involved in it and it can cause difficulties and problems.

In Portsmouth, for example, there were Muslim prayers said and a

Christian Councillor walked out saying, this is not the God that I

worship. If there were not prayers, just a period of silence or prayers

before the meeting that were optional, we would not have these

kind of problems. This is not just what local authorities are

therefore do -- to do. As far as answering your question, what will

they think, I think most Christians would have a problem with it. It is

only evangelical Christians who -- will not have a problem with it. It

is only evangelical Christians who are determined to -- but there used

on Society. Do you think Eric Pickles has the power to do what he

thinks he has done and reverse the High Court ruling? In the end, the

answer is yes, Parliament is sovereign. If the Secretary of

State can use the authority of Parliament to overturn the High

Court, he will certainly win. So yes, the Secretary of State has

this power. Can I intervene that -- there? In equality, there is

European directives on this matter. The Secretary of State does not

have untrammelled powers. I am not suggesting he does, but he has

parliamentary sovereignty behind him and he broadly has the European

Convention of Human Rights. The great traditions of European

constitution is the secular constitutions are used to to defend

religious freedom. It is the best - - basis of the other constitution.

The notion that secularism is used to promote militant atheism, which

is as intolerant as evangelical Christians -- in evangelical

Christian isn't, is nonsense. very simple question here, who is

in charge in this country? The politicians or the judges? It was

interesting at the start, you said about politicians and carrying. We

often used to pray that the interpretation of our legislation

would be right in the law courts. I say this, whilst the Secretary of

State does ultimately have the power through Parliament, the

problem is is rushing through legislation or interpreting it in a

way. The danger is it end up being bad legislation, we have surfer --

suffered from that in the past. It is essential that politicians who

set the agenda pass those resolutions that become law,

ultimately, our governing for there right reasons, which is about

affairs of society and whatever way you go there, whoever guide today,

whether it be this God, that court or at as a fierce, -- that guard or

as an atheist, that is it. Let's bring this back to the south-east.

We have more practising Christians than any other region. Do you

really understand the dynamics of the rest of the country? You live

in London. I do, but I think it is a question of principle. We're not

trying to stop people praying, we are just saying, do it beforehand

order it in silence so there is no conflict. We should not be mixing

politics and religion in this way. Thank you for being with us. We

will be fascinated to find out what happens with the lawyers on Monday.

Earlier, we talked about the number of young people out of work in the

South East. Now you might expect the government to encourage older

people to retire and make way for the youngsters. But that's not

what's happening. Instead, government advisers on the

Behavioural Insight team, otherwise known as the nudge unit, are busily

encouraging older people to carry on working past retirement age.

They're also urging them sell or rent their homes to younger

families. It's all part of a strategy to deal with the growing

challenge of an ageing population. But what does it mean for you?

The south-east has more people over the age of 60 than anywhere else in

the country. That will increase as life expectancy increases. One of

the Prime Minister's advisers made controversial suggestions recently

on how to deal with the ageing population. The adviser said that

old people get lonely and this could be avoided by encouraging

them to work past the age of retirement. 68 year-old Dave lives

on the Isle of Sheppey in Kent and agrees that he would be too lonely

without his job, on the road, selling and range of drinks. It is

not want to -- I do not want us at home and get cold, I want to go and

meet people and talk to people. We are on the coast, 12 miles from the

nearest supermarket, two miles from the village, it is pretty isolated.

But we love it. But it is isolated, we would not seek very many people

if we were not working. Also 68 and still working his neck -- North

Thanet MP Sir Roger Gale. Whilst many people said they averaged at

the suggestion of working longer, he says this is synthetic. This is

false, no one is making anyone work longer. OK, so retirement age goes

to 66 from 65, but can we seriously say we don't -- can't cope with

that? I do not want to work, my wife does not want to stop work,

and if we did stop, we would have to do something voluntary or we

would go mad. I think for a lot of elderly people, either employment

or voluntary employment is not only a very good thing but absolutely

essential. I know far too many of my elderly constituents who

vegetate at home doing nothing. idea of two -- the idea of working

longer came from the government's behavioural insight team, which

aims to change people's behaviour through psychology and without

legislation. They also said that under occupation of houses is a

problem. The government is keen to make people who live in big houses

move out and make way for big houses -- young families. They will

make payments according to the number of bedrooms in the property

being vacated. Saga, and number -- an organisation for long people --

old people, says that is social engineering. Others say it is

crucial especially in busy areas. About a third of properties are

under occupied, meaning they have got more than one spare bedroom. In

the south-east, 40% of homes are under occupied. The problem needs

to be addressed. We are not accusing any individuals of being

selfish in wanting to stay at home, but what we are saying is, as a

society, we older people, myself included, are being selfish if we

do not share the housing fairly between the older generation and

the younger generation. But is it offensive to older people to

suggest they should downsize their homes? Homes are for people to live

in, not for people to rattle around in. Given that there is a desperate

need for family housing, I want to see as much of the property that

we've already got properly used, that his social housing, also

private housing. Would you consider downsizing this House? I have every

intention, and my wife, of downsizing at the right time.

Extending working life and downsizing family homes are

controversial ideas. But are they are examples of social engineering

gone mad Orme nothing more than a nudge in the right direction?

Joining us in the studio is Jeremy Birch, the Labour leader of

Hastings Borough Council. Let's start with the pensioners working

longer. No coercion, just and large, anything wrong with that? When some

people saw that night, they thought it was a hefty shove. There are

900,000 over 65 year-olds economic the active, already working. I do

not know why, whether they are lonely or want social interaction

or whether energy prices have driven them out to get more income.

There is nothing wrong with people working longer, but they should not

be any compulsion or pressure to do that. Do you think they are being

made to feel guilty, if they are not forced, to stay in a job or

about the size of their houses? think the size of their houses is a

ridiculous argument. We are trying to blame all the people for the

fact we are not building homes. Less homes built than any time

since the second year -- Second World War. We need the mortgage

market opened up and more investment into social housing so

we can get Butikofer -- accommodation people need. My

mother downsized recently, she was not pressured, it was the

appropriate thing to do. There should be no pressure of people

doing anything, they should work on the basis of their own

understanding of their personal needs, we need to tackle the lack

of housing in the country. people want to downsize, what about

helping that to do that? In London they have a project whereby you

encourage people, you offer them the ability to rent something

smaller and more suitable for them, and they let out their old family

home to a family that needs it, would you try that in Hastings?

Absolutely, in Redbridge, we have looked into a. It has got to be on

the basis of a harmonious basis between the family and the older

person. A co-operative arrangement with no compulsion on anyway -- on

anyone. Let's talk about persuasion politics, does it work? I don't

think it best -- does necessarily. If you are going to encouraging

people to do that, you cannot be asking all the people to leave the

family home where they have brought up their children, and saying, you

have got to get out for making way for others, you cannot have that.

What you do need to do, one of the things might be to induce the bank

bonus levy so you can build from that 24,000 affordable homes that

it would help to meet the needs that Jeremy is talking about for

all the people who get a proper opportunity to downsize. Your

government did not build enough houses, this is not a new problem.

I am not saying we are perfect. You are right, the other scale his

youth unemployment and long-term unemployment, it has more than

doubled in the last year just in Gillingham and Rainham. The other

end, people working longer, but we have got a whole situation whereby

we have got an economy which is not being encouraged to develop jobs

and opportunities. One other thing, Roger Gale was talking about, not

just about work but keeping busy, doing voluntary work. You only need

to look at the last year, the cuts in grants to voluntary

organisations that have been forced upon local authorities, probably

true in Hastings and Kent, and in Medway, to be able to support those

opportunities, they have disappeared. We are ending up with

people being forced to stay in their homes, become lonely which we

know is not a good thing. Let's look at whether or not to be

government has pensioner's best interests at heart -- at heart,

what is at the heart of this? is the kind of thing the government

does when it cannot afford to change economic and social reality,

it tries to change reality by wishing it away. This is happening

because old people cannot afford not to work. Pension pot of tiny,

people who have worked in the private sector cannot afford to

support themselves so they have to go to work. The housing crisis, you

are right, we need more houses. Labour did not build an, the

Conservatives are not building them, but they will not wish away the

housing crisis by encouraging a few older people to move into smaller

homes, it would not even be a drop in the ocean. The real solution is

economic. This week, for councils in Kent

rejected Eric Pickles offer of a grant to freeze council cap -- tax.

But Sussex Police Authority accepted his Grant Offer, at their

final budget meeting before they are abolished in November, they

approved �10 million worth of savings. One of the people who

hopes to replace the authority is Ian Chisholm all, he is standing as

an independent candidate in Sussex for the job of police get --

Commissioner. It is a new role that need not be filled by a politician.

The education secretary free school policy is. Going down well with

some. -- parents in Hove. -- is not going down well. An application for

a face based secondary school has started a war of words. Parents are

divided on whether a new Christian school would increase or reduce

choice. East Sussex County Council offerings 30% of windsurfing and

sailing courses in when -- in Eastbourne. Who said life cannot be

plain sailing? A quick thought, we have not got

any time left, on the Police Commissioner. Will eight non

politician ever win? I would love to think so, but the reality of our

elections are organised on a party political basis. I fear we will

have Labour and Conservative candidates for these jobs, not

independence, would that it were otherwise. You will obviously have

major political parties standing, I hope there will be Labour

commissioners there. But this is money spent which could be spent on