Browse content similar to 19/02/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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In the south-east, all work and no play, will pensioners be helped or | :01:31. | :01:41. | |
:01:41. | :01:41. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1713 seconds | :01:41. | :30:14. | |
persecuted by the latest ideas to I'm Julia George and this is the | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
Sunday Politics in the South East. Coming up shortly: | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
The prayers of many South East local authorities are answered as | :30:20. | :30:25. | |
the Government intervenes to reverse the ban at council meetings. | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
With me in the studio today are Tim Luckhurst, Professor of Journalism | :30:28. | :30:31. | |
at Kent University and Paul Clark, former Labour MP for Gillingham and | :30:31. | :30:40. | |
Rainham. Unemployment across South East is | :30:40. | :30:43. | |
up. Kent and Medway has seen one of the biggest rises in recent months. | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
Three times as many people lost their jobs in January compared to | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
December. Young people in Kent are the worst affected. Nearly a third | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
of the jobless in the Kent County Council are under 24. More than | :30:52. | :31:01. | |
9,000 are signing on. Tim Luckhurst, with your students, | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
how do you help them get a job? and the size to them from the very | :31:05. | :31:10. | |
beginning of the decree that employability is as important as | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
academic ability, in making sure you have a career. They also | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
emphasise that if you do not get those Kate -- keep employability | :31:18. | :31:25. | |
skills, being unemployed for a year between 18 and 24 can have a long- | :31:25. | :31:30. | |
term effect, so we stress to them to learn the academic staff but | :31:30. | :31:35. | |
also the key employability skills. This is another worrying trend, the | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
number of people out of work for more than a year. Some of the must | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
despair that they will ever get a job again, what does that do to | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
someone? We saw this in the Medway towns when we saw the dockyard and | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
engineering companies closing. People were unemployed for a long | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
period of time, totally demoralising. The problem we have | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
today is that their policies being followed which give no hope to the | :31:59. | :32:05. | |
economy coming out of the recession and helping to create jobs as it is | :32:05. | :32:10. | |
is the responsibility of any government to do. We will be back | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
with jobs later on. Should politicians pray? Three | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
simple words, one massive row. In a statement to the Sunday Politics | :32:17. | :32:20. | |
South East, the Bishop of Rochester predicted earlier in the week that | :32:20. | :32:22. | |
a High Court ban on formal prayer during council meetings wouldn't | :32:22. | :32:28. | |
last. He told us, "many are not content with this decision and we | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
will not, therefore, have heard the last of the matter." Turns out he | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
was right. The Government has reversed the High Court ruling that | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
might please practising Christians and we have more of them than any | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
other part of the country. The Mayor of Folkestone Susan Wallace | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
told us, "This news has made my day. We can keep our tradition that's | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
been going on 700 years." But should the Church of England | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
continue to have a special status in our political life? Joining our | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
discussion from our Westminster studio is Keith Porteus Wood of the | :32:56. | :33:03. | |
National Secular Society. Thank you are joining us. Plenty of | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
people will be watching us this lunchtime having returned from | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
church, they are practising Christians in a Christian country, | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
and they will be delighted that prayers are back on the agenda. | :33:13. | :33:18. | |
What is your message to them? Church attendance is in terminal | :33:18. | :33:22. | |
decline, only one in 15 of the population are going to church. I | :33:22. | :33:27. | |
don't think the Secretary of State, evangelical though he is, at his in | :33:27. | :33:33. | |
a position to overturn these rulings. He has advised local | :33:33. | :33:40. | |
authorities that his act, the localism Act, may well, or in his | :33:40. | :33:47. | |
opinion does overall -- overruled the continual -- the particular act | :33:47. | :33:52. | |
that we challenged. Our lawyers are saying the Secretary of State is | :33:52. | :33:56. | |
long. I have had very senior lawyer has come to me and say that in the | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
last couple of days -- the Secretary of State is wrong. This | :33:59. | :34:04. | |
is due to be seen out in the courts and it will be challenged. The | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
National Secular Society will continue to take every opportunity | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
it will to challenge it. This is not being not a liberal, it is | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
about saying there is a time and a place for everything. We suggested | :34:15. | :34:20. | |
prayers before council meetings or periods of silence during council | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
meetings, both of which were rejected by the council we took to | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
the High Court. Let's just be really clear about one thing. You | :34:27. | :34:33. | |
will be eagerly challenge Eric Pickles if he has -- legally | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
challenged Eric because if he believes he has reversed this? | :34:37. | :34:42. | |
is all breaking news, I have an appointment with our lawyer's first | :34:42. | :34:46. | |
thing tomorrow. Certainly in principle, we will do everything we | :34:46. | :34:51. | |
can to challenge it and we think he is wrong. Let's pick up on the idea. | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
You do not answer the question about what the practising | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
Christians might feel, you just said that there were not many of | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
them so their opinions don't matter. There are lot of people who feel | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
strongly about this as a tradition for the country, what is wrong with | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
that? There is nothing wrong with tradition. Because of the change of | :35:11. | :35:16. | |
society, I think that when people are doing public duty, religion | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
should not be involved in it and it can cause difficulties and problems. | :35:19. | :35:25. | |
In Portsmouth, for example, there were Muslim prayers said and a | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
Christian Councillor walked out saying, this is not the God that I | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
worship. If there were not prayers, just a period of silence or prayers | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
before the meeting that were optional, we would not have these | :35:38. | :35:42. | |
kind of problems. This is not just what local authorities are | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
therefore do -- to do. As far as answering your question, what will | :35:46. | :35:51. | |
they think, I think most Christians would have a problem with it. It is | :35:51. | :35:56. | |
only evangelical Christians who -- will not have a problem with it. It | :35:56. | :36:02. | |
is only evangelical Christians who are determined to -- but there used | :36:02. | :36:09. | |
on Society. Do you think Eric Pickles has the power to do what he | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
thinks he has done and reverse the High Court ruling? In the end, the | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
answer is yes, Parliament is sovereign. If the Secretary of | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
State can use the authority of Parliament to overturn the High | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
Court, he will certainly win. So yes, the Secretary of State has | :36:24. | :36:32. | |
this power. Can I intervene that -- there? In equality, there is | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
European directives on this matter. The Secretary of State does not | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
have untrammelled powers. I am not suggesting he does, but he has | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
parliamentary sovereignty behind him and he broadly has the European | :36:43. | :36:47. | |
Convention of Human Rights. The great traditions of European | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
constitution is the secular constitutions are used to to defend | :36:50. | :36:55. | |
religious freedom. It is the best - - basis of the other constitution. | :36:55. | :37:01. | |
The notion that secularism is used to promote militant atheism, which | :37:01. | :37:06. | |
is as intolerant as evangelical Christians -- in evangelical | :37:06. | :37:15. | |
Christian isn't, is nonsense. very simple question here, who is | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
in charge in this country? The politicians or the judges? It was | :37:19. | :37:24. | |
interesting at the start, you said about politicians and carrying. We | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
often used to pray that the interpretation of our legislation | :37:27. | :37:36. | |
would be right in the law courts. I say this, whilst the Secretary of | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
State does ultimately have the power through Parliament, the | :37:39. | :37:45. | |
problem is is rushing through legislation or interpreting it in a | :37:45. | :37:49. | |
way. The danger is it end up being bad legislation, we have surfer -- | :37:49. | :37:55. | |
suffered from that in the past. It is essential that politicians who | :37:55. | :38:01. | |
set the agenda pass those resolutions that become law, | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
ultimately, our governing for there right reasons, which is about | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
affairs of society and whatever way you go there, whoever guide today, | :38:09. | :38:19. | |
:38:19. | :38:19. | ||
whether it be this God, that court or at as a fierce, -- that guard or | :38:19. | :38:28. | |
as an atheist, that is it. Let's bring this back to the south-east. | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
We have more practising Christians than any other region. Do you | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
really understand the dynamics of the rest of the country? You live | :38:35. | :38:40. | |
in London. I do, but I think it is a question of principle. We're not | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
trying to stop people praying, we are just saying, do it beforehand | :38:46. | :38:51. | |
order it in silence so there is no conflict. We should not be mixing | :38:51. | :38:57. | |
politics and religion in this way. Thank you for being with us. We | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
will be fascinated to find out what happens with the lawyers on Monday. | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
Earlier, we talked about the number of young people out of work in the | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
South East. Now you might expect the government to encourage older | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
people to retire and make way for the youngsters. But that's not | :39:10. | :39:11. | |
what's happening. Instead, government advisers on the | :39:12. | :39:14. | |
Behavioural Insight team, otherwise known as the nudge unit, are busily | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
encouraging older people to carry on working past retirement age. | :39:17. | :39:19. | |
They're also urging them sell or rent their homes to younger | :39:20. | :39:22. | |
families. It's all part of a strategy to deal with the growing | :39:23. | :39:25. | |
challenge of an ageing population. But what does it mean for you? | :39:26. | :39:35. | |
:39:36. | :39:36. | ||
The south-east has more people over the age of 60 than anywhere else in | :39:36. | :39:41. | |
the country. That will increase as life expectancy increases. One of | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
the Prime Minister's advisers made controversial suggestions recently | :39:44. | :39:54. | |
on how to deal with the ageing population. The adviser said that | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
old people get lonely and this could be avoided by encouraging | :39:57. | :40:02. | |
them to work past the age of retirement. 68 year-old Dave lives | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
on the Isle of Sheppey in Kent and agrees that he would be too lonely | :40:05. | :40:12. | |
without his job, on the road, selling and range of drinks. It is | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
not want to -- I do not want us at home and get cold, I want to go and | :40:16. | :40:21. | |
meet people and talk to people. We are on the coast, 12 miles from the | :40:21. | :40:27. | |
nearest supermarket, two miles from the village, it is pretty isolated. | :40:27. | :40:33. | |
But we love it. But it is isolated, we would not seek very many people | :40:33. | :40:38. | |
if we were not working. Also 68 and still working his neck -- North | :40:38. | :40:43. | |
Thanet MP Sir Roger Gale. Whilst many people said they averaged at | :40:43. | :40:52. | |
the suggestion of working longer, he says this is synthetic. This is | :40:52. | :40:59. | |
false, no one is making anyone work longer. OK, so retirement age goes | :40:59. | :41:04. | |
to 66 from 65, but can we seriously say we don't -- can't cope with | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
that? I do not want to work, my wife does not want to stop work, | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
and if we did stop, we would have to do something voluntary or we | :41:11. | :41:16. | |
would go mad. I think for a lot of elderly people, either employment | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
or voluntary employment is not only a very good thing but absolutely | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
essential. I know far too many of my elderly constituents who | :41:24. | :41:31. | |
vegetate at home doing nothing. idea of two -- the idea of working | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
longer came from the government's behavioural insight team, which | :41:34. | :41:39. | |
aims to change people's behaviour through psychology and without | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
legislation. They also said that under occupation of houses is a | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
problem. The government is keen to make people who live in big houses | :41:47. | :41:52. | |
move out and make way for big houses -- young families. They will | :41:52. | :41:59. | |
make payments according to the number of bedrooms in the property | :41:59. | :42:05. | |
being vacated. Saga, and number -- an organisation for long people -- | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
old people, says that is social engineering. Others say it is | :42:09. | :42:14. | |
crucial especially in busy areas. About a third of properties are | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
under occupied, meaning they have got more than one spare bedroom. In | :42:18. | :42:24. | |
the south-east, 40% of homes are under occupied. The problem needs | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
to be addressed. We are not accusing any individuals of being | :42:27. | :42:34. | |
selfish in wanting to stay at home, but what we are saying is, as a | :42:34. | :42:40. | |
society, we older people, myself included, are being selfish if we | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
do not share the housing fairly between the older generation and | :42:43. | :42:47. | |
the younger generation. But is it offensive to older people to | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
suggest they should downsize their homes? Homes are for people to live | :42:51. | :42:56. | |
in, not for people to rattle around in. Given that there is a desperate | :42:56. | :42:59. | |
need for family housing, I want to see as much of the property that | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
we've already got properly used, that his social housing, also | :43:03. | :43:08. | |
private housing. Would you consider downsizing this House? I have every | :43:08. | :43:14. | |
intention, and my wife, of downsizing at the right time. | :43:14. | :43:16. | |
Extending working life and downsizing family homes are | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
controversial ideas. But are they are examples of social engineering | :43:21. | :43:27. | |
gone mad Orme nothing more than a nudge in the right direction? | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
Joining us in the studio is Jeremy Birch, the Labour leader of | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
Hastings Borough Council. Let's start with the pensioners working | :43:35. | :43:40. | |
longer. No coercion, just and large, anything wrong with that? When some | :43:40. | :43:48. | |
people saw that night, they thought it was a hefty shove. There are | :43:48. | :43:56. | |
900,000 over 65 year-olds economic the active, already working. I do | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
not know why, whether they are lonely or want social interaction | :43:59. | :44:04. | |
or whether energy prices have driven them out to get more income. | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
There is nothing wrong with people working longer, but they should not | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
be any compulsion or pressure to do that. Do you think they are being | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
made to feel guilty, if they are not forced, to stay in a job or | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
about the size of their houses? think the size of their houses is a | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
ridiculous argument. We are trying to blame all the people for the | :44:24. | :44:29. | |
fact we are not building homes. Less homes built than any time | :44:29. | :44:32. | |
since the second year -- Second World War. We need the mortgage | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
market opened up and more investment into social housing so | :44:35. | :44:42. | |
we can get Butikofer -- accommodation people need. My | :44:42. | :44:45. | |
mother downsized recently, she was not pressured, it was the | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
appropriate thing to do. There should be no pressure of people | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
doing anything, they should work on the basis of their own | :44:52. | :44:54. | |
understanding of their personal needs, we need to tackle the lack | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
of housing in the country. people want to downsize, what about | :44:58. | :45:03. | |
helping that to do that? In London they have a project whereby you | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
encourage people, you offer them the ability to rent something | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
smaller and more suitable for them, and they let out their old family | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
home to a family that needs it, would you try that in Hastings? | :45:14. | :45:19. | |
Absolutely, in Redbridge, we have looked into a. It has got to be on | :45:19. | :45:26. | |
the basis of a harmonious basis between the family and the older | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
person. A co-operative arrangement with no compulsion on anyway -- on | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
anyone. Let's talk about persuasion politics, does it work? I don't | :45:34. | :45:39. | |
think it best -- does necessarily. If you are going to encouraging | :45:39. | :45:43. | |
people to do that, you cannot be asking all the people to leave the | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
family home where they have brought up their children, and saying, you | :45:46. | :45:52. | |
have got to get out for making way for others, you cannot have that. | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
What you do need to do, one of the things might be to induce the bank | :45:56. | :46:02. | |
bonus levy so you can build from that 24,000 affordable homes that | :46:02. | :46:09. | |
it would help to meet the needs that Jeremy is talking about for | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
all the people who get a proper opportunity to downsize. Your | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
government did not build enough houses, this is not a new problem. | :46:16. | :46:21. | |
I am not saying we are perfect. You are right, the other scale his | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
youth unemployment and long-term unemployment, it has more than | :46:24. | :46:30. | |
doubled in the last year just in Gillingham and Rainham. The other | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
end, people working longer, but we have got a whole situation whereby | :46:34. | :46:39. | |
we have got an economy which is not being encouraged to develop jobs | :46:39. | :46:44. | |
and opportunities. One other thing, Roger Gale was talking about, not | :46:44. | :46:50. | |
just about work but keeping busy, doing voluntary work. You only need | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
to look at the last year, the cuts in grants to voluntary | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
organisations that have been forced upon local authorities, probably | :46:58. | :47:03. | |
true in Hastings and Kent, and in Medway, to be able to support those | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
opportunities, they have disappeared. We are ending up with | :47:07. | :47:10. | |
people being forced to stay in their homes, become lonely which we | :47:10. | :47:15. | |
know is not a good thing. Let's look at whether or not to be | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
government has pensioner's best interests at heart -- at heart, | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
what is at the heart of this? is the kind of thing the government | :47:23. | :47:27. | |
does when it cannot afford to change economic and social reality, | :47:27. | :47:31. | |
it tries to change reality by wishing it away. This is happening | :47:31. | :47:35. | |
because old people cannot afford not to work. Pension pot of tiny, | :47:35. | :47:40. | |
people who have worked in the private sector cannot afford to | :47:40. | :47:44. | |
support themselves so they have to go to work. The housing crisis, you | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
are right, we need more houses. Labour did not build an, the | :47:48. | :47:52. | |
Conservatives are not building them, but they will not wish away the | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
housing crisis by encouraging a few older people to move into smaller | :47:56. | :48:01. | |
homes, it would not even be a drop in the ocean. The real solution is | :48:01. | :48:11. | |
:48:11. | :48:16. | ||
economic. This week, for councils in Kent | :48:16. | :48:20. | |
rejected Eric Pickles offer of a grant to freeze council cap -- tax. | :48:20. | :48:25. | |
But Sussex Police Authority accepted his Grant Offer, at their | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
final budget meeting before they are abolished in November, they | :48:29. | :48:32. | |
approved �10 million worth of savings. One of the people who | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
hopes to replace the authority is Ian Chisholm all, he is standing as | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
an independent candidate in Sussex for the job of police get -- | :48:41. | :48:47. | |
Commissioner. It is a new role that need not be filled by a politician. | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
The education secretary free school policy is. Going down well with | :48:50. | :48:56. | |
some. -- parents in Hove. -- is not going down well. An application for | :48:56. | :49:01. | |
a face based secondary school has started a war of words. Parents are | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
divided on whether a new Christian school would increase or reduce | :49:05. | :49:10. | |
choice. East Sussex County Council offerings 30% of windsurfing and | :49:11. | :49:15. | |
sailing courses in when -- in Eastbourne. Who said life cannot be | :49:15. | :49:20. | |
plain sailing? A quick thought, we have not got | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
any time left, on the Police Commissioner. Will eight non | :49:24. | :49:31. | |
politician ever win? I would love to think so, but the reality of our | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
elections are organised on a party political basis. I fear we will | :49:34. | :49:37. | |
have Labour and Conservative candidates for these jobs, not | :49:38. | :49:43. | |
independence, would that it were otherwise. You will obviously have | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
major political parties standing, I hope there will be Labour | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
commissioners there. But this is money spent which could be spent on | :49:50. | :49:53. |