11/11/2012 Sunday Politics South East


11/11/2012

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Weekend hearings and appearances by a video links and the South East.

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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2139 seconds

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Is it fair on defendants and I am Julia George and this is the

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Sunday Politics in the South East. Coming up later:

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Will government attempts to fast track planning permissions help or

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hinder the South East economy? With me in the studio sharing their

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thoughts on the big stories are Tracey Crouch the Conservative MP

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for Chatham, and Paul Richards a Sussex-based Labour commentator.

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Nice to have you both here. Four days left until the first

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Police and Crime Commissioners elections for Kent, Sussex and

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Surrey. Everyone says it will be a

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shockingly low turnout but people seem engaged, it you think we will

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be surprised? I think we have got more engaged as the election

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more engaged as the election process has gone on. It is very

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different to a normal campaign. Am not surprised that people feel they

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have not had as much information as they could have but people have

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been coming up to me and asking me about it. We could be surprised on

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Thursday. You wanted to be a police crime commissioner, I'm sure you're

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over that you weren't selected for it, would this be more attractive

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to people as an election if there was less ball -- party politics?

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How can you take it out of policing? The demarcation between

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operational or not operational is quite clear. She know how many

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people said they would rather have independent candidates only?

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two out of those it will be going to the elections. I would be put in

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money on no independent winning anywhere. Four days until you make

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your mind up. Still on the subject of crime-

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courts, Sussex and Kent are taking part in a government pilot scheme

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to deliver 'swift justice' by hearing cases in the evenings and

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weekends. They are also using virtual technology so defendants

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appear from police stations by video link. Are these experimental

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flexible courts really up to the As riots reached last summer courts

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across Manchester, Birmingham and London were open round the clock.

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Offenders could be arrested, charged and sentenced on the same

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day it was unprecedented. David Cameron called it swift justice for

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troublemakers. It sped up the way the courts operate. In July the

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Government announced that magistrates' courts would act more

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flexibly and open in the evenings and weekends. There are already

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trying it out here in Brighton and in crawling, would be and the

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Hastings. The other ways to increase the number of defendants

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appearing in court is going via video link, but will this cost

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more? And does more speed me more justice?

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This is where the screeners. This is where we are linked to the

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courts. North Kent has been part of or at

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National Trial of a virtual courts for three years now. There are

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about to begin the evening sittings also. We have extended hours and

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that means instead of keeping people unnecessarily overnight, we

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can put them before a magistrate that same day and reduce the need

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to keep them in the police station. Instead of appearing in court in

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person there plot of a special room in the police station. They can see

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what is happening on screen and give evidence to the camera which

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is broadcast to the court room. When the pilot scheme started in

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2009 it did not save money, it costs an extra �247 per defendant.

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Courts but told to speed up to cut costs. There was to be 610 minutes

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hearings and I were. For victims that can seem too fast. With some

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courts equipped, and some not, victims are supposed to go further

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to hear the cases heard. The impact of acrimony is quite significant.

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To feel that that is heard in such a short time could be a

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disadvantage. In terms of seeing the person in the real life it has

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greater impact. -- the impact of a crime. It is not just victims to

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feel that face-to-face meetings with defendants make a difference.

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It is also important for the lawyers representing them at

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crucial first hearings. He is a senior member of the Law Society

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and he once more it changes for the impact on lawyers. Law firms will

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have a greater expense. We will not be paid any more for the work we do

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out of hours. But we will have to pay our staff were working overtime.

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Virtual calls on a major concern. The defendant will not meet his

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lawyer face to face. So the first time that you appear in court, it

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will be likely that when the court is seeking new remand in custody,

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so the state want to lock you up, you will be defended by someone you

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have never met and that is not good for justice and is not right.

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Defendants do not get to choose whether they appear in person or

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via video. Defendants are more likely to plead guilty in a virtual

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court situation. That is what has been shown. Within 3,000 people

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appeared before the courts after the riots last year. Two-thirds

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were convicted. 716 people were sentenced at magistrates' court.

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37% of them served an immediate custodial sentence. It is higher

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than the normal rate of sentencing for similar offences. Gerry and the

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wry its swift justice was not always there and was extremely

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punitive. -- we saw during the riots. Excessive use of custody was

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used and that meant that people that could be dealt with in the

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community were instead locked up for days or weeks on end in prison.

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Swift justice is expensive and is not always there, it does not deal

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fairly with the victims or defendants. There is widespread

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support for more technology in our courts. But that is talking about

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efficiency Verses improvements. Lucinda Adam reporting. Let us put

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some of those questions raised to Mike O'Brien, Chair of the Medway

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Community Safety Partnership and member of Medway Council. They have

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been piloting the virtual courts since 2009.

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Are you pitting efficiency ahead of justice here? No, I do not think

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we're. Certain cases are suitable, generally demand cases, it its

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swift and short justice to the community. It is also very

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important for Beckham -- for the victims as well. The need to see

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justice happening. I personally have had no problems with the

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virtual court system that I was a part of in my time as a magistrate.

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Let us talk about the money. These are undeniably quicker but I'd be

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cheaper? A Ministry of Justice report found the scheme cost more

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money that an less. Technology increased the cost in each case by

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�250 in that report their by us. If that wind across the country it

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would be next to �12.1 million in ten years. Where is the value?

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value it is the odd salary costs. For instance, the costs of police

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officers. It has been since do that none mind that we have been running

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this scheme in Kent. Over 2,200 people had been dealt with by the

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virtual court. That is saved over 300 hours of as a man time. It does

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mean that police officers can be back on the street in front line

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services. But the Ministry of Justice pit those sums together.

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They looked at how much it had saved and how much it had cost and

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still come up with the figure of nearly 250 pence more. And then

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they had to say they had not done them quickly enough and the needed

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to rush them, that hundred and �50 is an extra cost. -- �250. He in my

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time as a magistrate looking at the keys as I had in front of me, it

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was never suggested to me. Let us talk about a different sort of

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justice. Was on the report that you're more likely to be convicted

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and you're more likely to have a longer conviction if we look at the

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swift justice and line -- in London and elsewhere. Is it worrying that

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you get a different sort of justice if you go through this swift and

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flexible court process? No, and indeed, I know that magistrates

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throughout Kent itself will apply a strict judicial interest to each

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case that they have in front of them. It makes not a little bit of

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difference to the magistrates whether the defendant is on a

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virtual link or in front of them in the court. The reality is, swifter

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justice is more efficient justice, and initially there were hiccups,

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there were hiccups with the sales being at distance away from the

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interview room that they were using. All these problems have now been

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overcome. In fact, it seems to me, but it is going from strength to

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strength. We will be able to eventually be able to have

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witnesses able to give witness statements and evidence under

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virtual link. We have to leave it there, good Abyan the programme.

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Let us make a simple distinction between that man in the remote TV

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studio and you both sitting here. You would always rather do in

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interviewed face-to-face in the studio with me than at down the

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line. Can you see the comparison here between someone in is... We're

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talking about freedom by it that you will link, is that there.

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Sometimes it is more appropriate to do it down the line. And she that

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he has not got an hour to come over to do this interview today. That is

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why we have this much will interview. But you know you were at

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a disadvantage in a television situation. Imagine if you justice

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and freedom was at stake. These are really good ideas for a certain

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crimes. Why is it needs must when we have falling crime? I think you

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can take a specific one might drink driving. Someone gets pulled over

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several times over the limit and can be brought to just that --

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brought to justice within hours. Justice delayed is justice denied.

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You can deal with these situations straight away. What other sort of

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offences do you think we should be sick we assume someone is guilty on

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which is basically what you're saying. What happened about

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innocent approving guilty? You are still going to court. But within 90

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minutes. As a magistrate you always under time limits. It is a balance,

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you cannot have serious crimes done like this. But there are grounds

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that can be dealt with. Are you not alarmed by anything your hair done

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that report? The fact that it was costing more money and you get a

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different conviction rate when you do these quick court hearings?

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does not need to cost more money. The initial pilot cost more, but as

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people get used to the system the money will come down. It will

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become cheaper. I do not think it will deny justice because

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magistrates are still bound by the same guidelines if it was not been

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done remotely. There is still the same straitjacket on the justice.

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Are you surprised to hear a Labour voice supporting a Coalition paper?

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What the victims really want is fast justice. They want to see

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something done quickly. The do not want the keys hanging on for months

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and months. Thank you both very much.

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Should it be easier for developers to get planning permission to build

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new homes, new roads, new telecommunication masts? The latest

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plans could see local authorities by-passed, with applications

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referred up to to central government to speed up the process.

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Where does that leave localism? And do we really need any more plots in

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the South East that have planning permission but never get built on?

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Let us start the debate with Georgia Wrighton from the Campaign

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to Protect Rural England, she is in our Brighton studio. What is the

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biggest problem with this new Bill? It is that it is being taken away

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from central Government and we have been working very hard with local

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authorities for sustainable environments locally. That is

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looking his wit -- at weir environmental limits are. In the

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proposal we are concerned that speed is supposed to be the same as

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quality. For us that is not the case. We want to see well-planned

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development in the right place. We want social needs met and

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recognition of environmental limits. When that is taken away from an egg

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and corps leave local level of different things come first. Yapped

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at some comeback against local authorities that just do not get

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anything done. -- you have to see. I think so but people are saying

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that speed is the most important thing and that is not always the

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case. We would quality developments in the right place. There is a

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suggestion that the Government favours localism but they frown

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upon it when communities want to see more recognition. We will pick

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up on localism with the politicians, but from you, what you think about

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building on green belt land if you read designate other land

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afterwards? What they're saying is there is other land available.

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There are 400,000 existing planning permissions existing at only half

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of them have been built on. But her plenty of sites that are still

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available that have not been taken up yet. We want to see their first

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policy reinstated also. We feel there is no need to build on green

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belt land at the moment. Thank you very much. Is there any about

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planning? The Local Government Association, Tracy Crouch, have

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said that in the South East we have the highest number and percentage

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of planning permissions gained and then no one turns up to do that

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building work. There is a to bottle neck here with planning, is there?

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That is what this bill is here to do. Planning has been granted but

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developers have not be able to get on. Because of money. Sometimes it

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is because of the complexities around planning. What we have seen

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his permission being granted to build homes but due to some very

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complex and associations around six it -- section 106 their development

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had been stalled and the Government had to step in and renegotiate

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between the council and the developers to ensure that the

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process was met. And hundred and �50 million had been invested in

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their sight. Plans would lead and there was a need for further

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investment. It is about developers giving money to local regeneration

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schemes to get the planning permission in the first place.

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Bill moves away from these agreements. Do think that is a good

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thing? All the sudden developers are being told that you do not have

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to bother with the planning permissions as before. There is at

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present -- there is a housing crisis particularly in the South

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East. The age people that people can buy houses that is getting

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older. He then needs to be a regional approach. You cannot just

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do it on the local level. I came up on a train and there is lot is

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based in the county. You can build sustainable communities that people

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want to live in. The Government is not putting money any word that it

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needs to be. It is also a good way of getting the economy moving by

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giving money to these building firms. The Local Government

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Association says that it is clear that planning is not the main

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barrier to growth, these are just the main problem is access for at

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first-time buyers and access finances for the builders. Is that

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not talking about the programme -- army not to commit a problem that

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does not exist? No, if we look at the work of the last Labour

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Government, we have taken that a lot further and forwarded to

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streamline planning. You were not wrong though, there are other

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issues that need to be thought about. The Government are thinking

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about that. Just briefly, how would you feel of the Government came to

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you and said that they were going to put some development end and

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they were going to back it in Chatham, be do not as your other

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people or the council? That is not how what is going to work anyway.

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The planning process still has to go forward. It would still be

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referred to the Planning Inspectorate. It is about

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streamlining so that the complexities of the planning

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structures which is a long process sometimes will be streamlined.

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will now move on. Now our regular round up of the

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political week in the South East in 60 Seconds. Here is our Political

:56:58.:57:08.
:57:08.:57:09.

This man said he was disgusted after his employment contract was

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changed to cut his sick pay. He made the discovery when he needed

:57:14.:57:17.

time off for his heart condition. The Government said that it should

:57:17.:57:22.

be changed back. A Defence Minister spoke movingly

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about a corporal who died in Afghanistan. Caroline Lucas asked

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for immediate withdrawal of British troops.

:57:33.:57:37.

South-east residents had been asked to call the hotline if the C ash

:57:37.:57:42.

dieback in their area. It has been confirmed in Kent and Sussex.

:57:42.:57:47.

David Green gave his opinion on Nadine Dory is decision to go to

:57:47.:57:52.

Australia by it taking part on and a celebrity get near to appear.

:57:52.:57:56.

will be struggling with it, but I will be voting loyally for her to

:57:56.:58:06.
:58:06.:58:15.

What will talk like that and the moment. But more seriously, what

:58:15.:58:20.

you think about the contract for one of her employees, at your local

:58:20.:58:27.

MP, and the change of sick pay. is not something I can condone. You

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have to look after your staff are very well. The media is successful

:58:31.:58:36.

as you can be. My secretary had a heart attack last year and I sent

:58:36.:58:41.

her flowers. I could not dream of messing around with a contract.

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think this is a serious mistake. Unfortunately, I do. I hope that

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the man is getting better now and I know that having a heart attack and

:58:53.:58:58.

recovering is incredibly stressful. She should hang her head in shame.

:58:58.:59:04.

If anybody was to get cut it was her and not Nadine Tories. I have a

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say in the House this week. What would you say to if you saw her now.

:59:08.:59:11.

I would say to it that she is making a mistake and she should

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offer a full apology. And look at the contract and given the money he

:59:17.:59:21.

deserves. Yes, and the cut the contract. It has been rewarded back

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to the original wording. But why did she do it in the first place?

:59:27.:59:33.

A brief word on Madine Tories. Would you ever take part in that?

:59:33.:59:40.

You would like to stay there as long as possible? I think it was

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completely misjudged. The response had to be a bit later. It will be

:59:45.:59:50.

useful to the world of MPs and politics perhaps. What is she like?

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I do not really know her very well. I do not think that politicians

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should really go on reality shows. Why not? Because we have a job to

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do. The taxpayer pays me to represent them not to go to the

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jungle. We will remember that if you ever take part in one of those

:00:08.:00:12.

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