30/06/2013 Sunday Politics South East

passengers be left waiting for the bus as councils look for ways to cut

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1917 seconds

spending. We will be asking the Politics in the South East.

Coming up later, councils argue some essential services will have to go

if they're to cope with the 10% budget cut being imposed on them.

But why are they hoarding millions in their reserves?

Joining me in the studio today to discuss this and other topics is the

Liberal Democrat MP for Lewes - who also happens to be the Transport

Minister - Norman Baker. And the Labour Candidate for Hastings and

Rye, Sarah Owen. Welcome to the programme. This week, Sussex Police

have announced they're going to close 30 police buildings in a bid

to save �50 million over the next two years. Instead, officers will

work out of council-owned buildings in the community such as libraries

and town halls. But is this how the public wants to access their local

police force? The idea that we can get them in

better situation seems better. I dashed so providing there is a

proper contact point, I think it is a good idea. Got to make best use of

resources, Cerro, it's good move? -- Sarah. I know they are tough

economic times but I would question whether the police and crime

commission is a good use of money. We are selling off assets that will

affect front-line policing. It is less about what I think London what

we get from the police. People in Hastings really value having a

police station and we are lucky that none of the stations in Hastings all

rights are for the chop. But people will be annoyed. While people may

not use police station themselves often, but the people who use of

people on bail who have to go to report to them. If they have moved

that into a local library, people may that someone they would want in

a local library is turning up there. If they are on bail, they have not

committed an offence, and they are innocent until proven guilty.

you understand that people who you wouldn't normally expect to have a

local library are turning on police business it's not a normal

situation. I think it is a bizarre angle for you to come in at. If

people go into a public building, they go into a public building. The

problem is the total reduction in that it is not a public that it is

not a reduction in front-line policing, it is about taking people

out of buildings which are responsive to maintain and that will

release funds for front-line policing. We will see how that pans

out. The Police Commissioner will be answerable.

Bus services have been heavily hit over the last three years, with West

Sussex seeing one of the biggest cuts anywhere in the country. With

budgets further under pressure, campaigners are concerned councils

will cut subsidies further. So how will the South East ensure vital

services remain accessible for the most vulnerable people?

We think of the heyday of buses as part of a bygone era. But it isn't.

Bus journeys in the South East have increased by more than one fifth in

the last decade. It is now more popular than it has been since the

1980s. Two thirds of journeys taken by public transport are by bus. But

cuts of up to one third to council budgets over the last three years

mean that some services have already been lost. With a further 10%

squeeze on council funding announced this month, it is predicted that the

support to buses could be cut completely. We pay for buses by

buying tickets but evening and weekend services and some rural

roots are not profitable and are kept running simply because local

councils pay a subsidy to keep them going. 24 million bus journeys are

taken in West Sussex every year. 8 million of them in West dashing

Crawley. Many of them are subsidised but only half as many as three years

ago. The council has suffered some of the worst service cutbacks. --

the county has suffered. Some warning that the bus services could

be tipped over the edge. Caroline Lucas helps write the report.

cuts translate into bus services, then the people who will lose out

will be the vulnerable, people in rural areas, women, people who can't

afford to use the car. But these people depend on these local

services to get to their jobs, to get your childcare and make their

communities work. At Crawley bus station, the demand for services was

clear and talk of cuts on popular. More cuts? What you think about

that? No, they don't need more cuts to the buses. There are not a lot of

jobs, people are struggling to survive. I don't think there's any

reason for the government to be cutting buses. It would be awful. It

would be dashed in that case it would be mediating taxis which would

be a lot more. -- that would be me getting taxis. We need more buses in

our area. To cut the emissions as well. Jim Piercey runs meetings to

support older people. He said there needs to be every consideration

before making further cuts. I would ask them to think carefully about

how many people they are going to affect. For all people, buses are

essential. Some of the outlying villages, if the buses were there,

that would be it. The villages would be cut off completely. Jim's group

has had to relocate after a bus route was scrapped. At one time, we

have 40 people. We are down to 20 because they couldn't get on the bus

or the buses didn't run at the right time. That is the sort of thing. I

think it would make Crawley more of a ghost town. A fuel duty rebate

paid directly to bus companies could in theory go to councils. For the

moment, that money is ring fenced. But with more and more money on --

more and more pressure on services, people are aware that this money

could go. If certainty could be generated about the funding and the

funding could be used in a way that sustains the bus services that the

operator provides, there is not a huge issue. The issue comes and if

there is not that there is a lot of uncertainty or if it is not

sustained in the long term. It then becomes a very difficult to sustain

bus services if significant amounts of money lost to the bus network

because the money goes into other things. With buses experiencing a

public -- a popular revival, can national and local politicians

ensure unprofitable services have a future? Or some bus routes become a

thing of the past? Well, Norman Baker is the minister

responsible for bus services. You also a bus fan? I will be using a

bus back to Lewis. So are you worried? No, because the bus

patronage in the South East is buoyant. We are not seeing dramatic

reductions that have been talked about. This week, I made sure, when

it came to the Chancellor's statement, there are no cuts to

buses from the Department for Transport. We are increasing the

money for buses through a new initiative called the better bus

area. Four all five services are commercially run, they require no

subsidies. They have been carrying on as normal. The 20% which are

council supported, we are seeing wide variation between different

councils. We have heard about West Sussex cutting routes 65 routes.

Indeed, but if Sussex they have been rather more. We have 15 services

lost in Kent. So although you think everything is going swimmingly,

Labour have written, alongside 30 different organisations, including

the Women's Institute and the National union of students, raising

these concerns with the Chancellor because these services are so

vital. In terms of people using them, rural areas and East Sussex

rely on these and they are very vulnerable communities as well.

coalition came in and took the ring fencing away, the response ability

that local councils had to do to put money in local bus services. They

can output that money in other places and in tough times, they may

well choose to do so. The amount for buses is ring fenced and has not

been decreased. What councils do with their resources is a matter for

them. But the picture is varied across the country. The position in

East Sussex is better than across the country in many areas. Some

councils have taken an axe to it. Sussex they they have no other

choice. Of course they have choice. These cuts are impacting on

vulnerable communities. I wouldn't be making the cuts that West Sussex

is making. You are the minister responsible. I am not responsible. I

give at the money to commercial bus companies, that has not been cut.

What local councils do with their money is not what I'm responsible

for. I would be doing in West Sussex. So can you stand up for the

buses? I do stand up with the buses and I'd -- I do stand-up for the

buses and I have regular contact with the Chancellor and make it well

known how important they are. There is funding which Eric pickles

believes is appropriate for local councils but they have the

feasibility to spend it as they wish. Some of them spend it wisely,

some of them don't. Some of them prioritise buses, some prioritise

other areas. So, Sarah, if you were in Norman's shoes, what would you

do? There are other ways of looking at how we fund and how communities

benefit from bus services. Where we have seen threats to bus services,

we should consult the public. In Hackney, we are looking at community

mutuals to run their transport links or perhaps merging services with

schools and social services. There are other ways of doing it rather

than just cutting vital services. very much agree with that. There is

a way of looking at children's services and community services

running together. Some of the councils across the country are

using those innovative arrangements, other that others are taking the

axe. We are talking about an overall 10% Let's move on from buses

specifically to everything else that local authorities provide, because

local culture, leisure centres and roads all face an uncertain future

according to our councils who have learned in this week's Spending

Round that they will have to find another 10% cut to their budgets.

Cut. What are the options? Further efficiency savings, says the

Conservative chairman Grant Shapps. Or, how about dipping into Council

reserves, which in some cases are going up, or what about raising

council tax? We're joined now by the Conservative Leader of Kent County

Council, Paul Carter. Mr Carter, thank you for being with

us. So, another 10% of cuts to find, what will you do? On top of the 30%

-- on top of the 30% cuts, it will be a massive challenge. But we are

not going to put up the white flag in Kent. I believe that by

delivering further efficiencies, transforming services, the way we

produce services and the will debate around subsidised buses is a good

example. Just because Stagecoach may charge an enormous out of money to

run those roots, the idea of community mutuals will be the order

of the day. We have to be ruthless and rigorous in looking at not

necessarily the public sector, Kent County Council delivering their

services, but looking at social enterprises, mutuals, taking on a

larger share of the services that we deliver. Making sure that we get the

very best value and good quality services. Whether we will get there

without having to cut, remains to be seen. A journey into the unknown,

that means you might have to make some very harsh decisions and ends

services completely? Yes, but not until we have explored every avenue

and delivered every possible efficiency over a sensible

timeline, will be then think about that? What is a sensible timeline,

you -- it has to happen now, doesn't it? We have been hit harder than any

other department. We will have to accelerate and deliberate. I'm not

prepared to admit that we will have to cut services because there are

other areas we can explore before the elastic gets to the breaking

point. We have to explore all those avenues. Where we will end up, I

don't know. We are planning for the 10% cut which has been talked about

in Whitehall and Westminster. So we are well prepared. We have good,

innovative ideas to help us on that path. We look forward to finding out

what those innovative ideas turn out to be. People have talked about

reserves, reserves are there for a rainy day. But it sounds like it is

raining quite hard at the moment! Is if it -- is this the time to dip in?

We have done so and there is a lot of rubbish talked about reserves.

They are therefore a good reason. It is responsible, they are in line

with recommendation, three or 4% of our turnover, and will be winter

coming up, with extraordinary salting and whether requirements to

deliver. That is good practice and the remaining reserves are where you

may have a number of private finance initiatives and running in your

authority where you have greater cost coming toward the end of those

contracts than in the early stages. So you budget to pay for those

costs. And you could do with some more cash coming in. What about the

idea of razor cat -- raising council tax? Surrey put up their council

tax, it didn't hurt them at the ballot box. We have been able in

Kent through efficiency programmes to freeze council tax for three

years. In the Chancellor's statement there is the offer of additional

money to help local government freeze local government council tax

for the next two years. But that won't be adequate necessarily to

fund the extraordinary pressures we are under. So we need to look at

that. The problem with the government's council tax freeze

grant is that it is one of money, it doesn't go into the base budget. So

where costs are rising, it is not something that can go down in a few

years time. If that Grant was put into our base budget, we can say now

that we could potentially continue with the council tax freeze but I'm

not prepared to commit to that at this stage. Norman Baker let's bring

you back into it. The coalition is supposed to be about more localism,

more local decision-making. But you have already cut 40% from local

council budgets. It is making it more difficult. I think Paul Carter

gave a very responsible answer. Secretaries of State have gone in to

discuss with the Chancellor their budget position. What can sensibly

be done in the circumstances, when we need to save money, and how much

tolerance can be given to these departments. Vince -- Eric pickles

has gone in there saying that he is happy to give 10%. I find that

eyebrow raising. But he said that, so assuming the -- so that assumes

his government dashed his department has calculated that. There is always

room for efficiency savings, Sarah Owen? I question what our local MP

was doing as his PPS. Hastings has got the 11th worst settlement for

local government funding. We will be losing half of our grant funding

over the next few years and I have a lot of sympathy for Paul Carter. In

terms of difficult decisions, we have had to get rid of our chief

executive to mitigate some of the damages made by the coalition's

cuts. Would you rather see council tax go up? I would rather see us put

the money where it is actually needed. Hastings is one of the most

socially deprived... But would you rather see council tax go up?

would rather see money guaranteed for future demand. We have kept the

council tax freeze in Hastings but we can't plan for the future if we

don't know that the money is coming in. Would you rather see council tax

going up? What I would say as a Lib Dem, I believe in localism and I

think personally, it is inappropriate that you should force

councils down a particular road if that is contrary to what localism

degrees. I am in favour of giving councils enough space to take

decisions. Paul Carter, it sounds as if you have Norman Baker in your

corner, what is your message to government? We have to accept that

this cannot go on further from where we now. You can only squeeze the

envelope to a certain limit before the elastic breaks and things have

to give. And you have the graph of doom which are suggesting that in

five to ten years time, the demand on social services will subsume all

the other budgets so there will be nothing left to maintain highways

and run libraries and all the other services that local government is

responsible for. Therefore, the Public Accounts Committee, when the

pub -- when the question senior civil servants about whether they

look at the long-term outcome for the 10% cut, the answer was that

they did not have a clue. We have to accept that this is a massive

challenge placed on local government all over the country. Where their

journey will end, we don't know. will have to part at the moment.

And now a very quick round up of the week's other political events, in

Light winged dryad of the trees. Poets John Keats was impressed by

the Nightingale. In local inspector has rejected plans to build on Lodge

Hill because it is an environmentally sensitive --

sensitive site for Nightingale. we can't get the site develops, we

will lose 3500 homes. Campaigners are opposing plans to connect the

National Grid to Europe by building a natural pylons in East Kent. As

part of a spending review, the government has promised �92 million

to widen the a 22 near Tonbridge. Imagine you are touring an open top

bus when New Year this voice. not talking about Blackadder, or

Richard before. Actor Brian Blessed has been in Kent this week. Medway

Council are using the actor's voice to guide visitors through sites.

Brian Blessed, marvellous! There is money for capital projects,

we have heard �92 million for the a 21. I am pleased. The journey from

Hastings to London is very long and arduous by road. But it is welcomed.

Norman, we have seen the battles they have been over the Hastings and

Bexhill link road, there could be a battle over this one. I wouldn't

have thought so, to the same degree. It is widening an existing road

where is the link road is going through protected countryside area.

That is a different kettle of fish. What we are doing is investing