20/11/2016 Sunday Politics South East


20/11/2016

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Morning folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.

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Theresa May says she'll deliver on Brexit but does that mean leaving

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the EU's Single Market and the Customs Union?

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Tory MPs campaign for a commitment from the Prime

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The Chancellor pledges just over a billion pounds worth of spending

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on Britain's roads but is that it or will there be

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Their last leader was just 18 days in the job.

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And in the South East: As more post offices move

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into newsagents and even chtrches, we ask, are you still getting

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in London: Is the battle for Richmond Park based on the skies? Or

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is it about a bigger conflict in Europe?

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And with me - as always - and, no, these three aren't doing

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the Mannequin challenge - it's our dynamic, demonstrative

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dazzling political panel - Helen Lewis, Isabel Oakeshott

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and Tom Newton Dunn they'll also be tweeting throughout the programme.

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First this morning - Theresa May has said

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"Brexit means Brexit" - but can the Prime Minister -

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who was on the Remain side of argument during the referendum

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Well, Leave-supporting Tory MPs are re-launching

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the "European Research Group" this morning to keep Mrs May's feet

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Are you worried that you cannot trust Theresa May until payment to

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deliver full Brexit was Magellan like I totally trust Theresa May,

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100% behind her. She has displayed a massive amount of commitment to

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making a success of Brexit for the country.

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We don't know that yet, because nothing has happened. Why, then

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have you formed a pressure group? We were fed up with the negativity

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coming out around Brexit. I feel positive about the opportunities we

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face, and we are a group to provide suggestions. Who do you have in mind

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when you talk about negativity the Chancellor? No, from the Lib Dems,

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for example, from Labour MPs. This is a pressure group for leaving

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membership of the single market and customs union, correct? That is what

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we are proposing. It has a purpose other than just to combat

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negativity. When it comes to membership of the single market and

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the customs union, can you tell us what Government policy is towards

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both or either? Rightly, the Government hasn't made the position

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clear, and I think that is the right approach, because we don't want to

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review our negotiating hand. What we're saying... I'm not asking what

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you are saying. Can you tell us what Government policy is towards

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membership of these institutions? The Government wants to make sure

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British businesses have the right to trade with EU partners, to forge new

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trade deals with the rest of the world. We hope to Reza may speak at

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Mansion house this week. -- we had Theresa May speak at Mansion house

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this week. She has been clear, saying it was not a binary choice.

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And she's right. Let's run that tape, because I want to pick up on

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what she did say. This is what she had to say about the customs union

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at Prime Minister's Question Time. On the whole question of the customs

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union, trading relationships that we have with the European Union and

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other parts of the world once we have left the European Union, we are

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preparing carefully for the formal negotiations. We are preparing

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carefully for the formal negotiations. We want to ensure we

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have the best possible trading deal with the EU once we have left. Do

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you know what she means when she says being in the customs union is

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not a binary choice? I think she's right when she says that. At the

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moment, and you know this, as long as we are in the customs union, we

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cannot set our own tariffs or rules, cannot have a free trade agreement

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with the US or China. We need to leave a customs union to do that.

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Binary means either you are in or you are out, self which is it? We

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still want to trade with the EU and I think we can have a free trade

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agreement with the EU. That is a separate matter, and it has to do

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with the single market. What about the customs union? We need to leave

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the customs union. We do it and properly. That is how to get the

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most out of this opportunity. Summit is a binary choice? The Prime

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Minister is right when she says it's not a binary choice. Both can't be

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right. We can leave the customs union, get their benefits, and have

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a free trade agreement with zero tariffs with the EU. So it is a

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binary choice an either be stale really. Yellow like I am saying the

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Prime Minister is right when she says it is not a binary choice. -- I

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am saying the Prime Minister is right. We need clarity. Youth had

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said -- you have said it is a binary choice. We need to leave the

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constraints of the customs union. It pushes up prices. The EU is not

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securing the right trade deals, and if we want to make the most of it,

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we need to get out there and get some deals going. Do you accept that

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if we remain in the customs union, we cannot do our own free-trade

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deals? Yellow right 100%. That is why we have to leave. -- 100%. Do

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you accept that if we leave the customs union but stay with

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substantial access, I don't say membership, but substantial access

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to the single market, that goods going from this country to the

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single market because we're no longer in the union will be subject

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to complicated rules of origin regulations, which could cost

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business ?13 billion a year? I would like to see a free-trade agreement

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between the UK and the EU. Look at the Canadian deal. I give you that,

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but if we're not in the customs union, things that we bring in on

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our own tariffs once we've left we can't just export again willy-nilly

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to the EU. They will demand to see rules of origin. Norway has to do

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that at the moment and it is highly complicated expensive. I think if we

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agree a particular arrangement as part of this agreement with the EU,

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we can reach an agreement on that which sets a lower standard, which

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sets a different level of tariffs, which protects some of our

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industries. Let's suppose we have pretty much free trade with the EU

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but we are out of the customs union, and let's suppose that the European

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Union has a 20% tariff on Japanese whisky and we decide to have a %

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tariff - what then happens to the whisky that comes into Britain and

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goes on to the EU? The EU will not let that in. That will be part of

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the negotiation. I think there is a huge benefit for external operators.

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Every bottle of Japanese whisky they will have to work out the rules

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of origin. There have been studies that show there is a potential for

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50% increase in global product if we leave. We're losing the benefits of

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free trade. I understand, I am asking for your particular view

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Thank you for that. Is it not surprising Mr Hannan could

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not bring himself to say we would leave the customs union? It is

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messy. The reason there is this new group of Tory MPs signing up to a

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campaign to make sure we get a genuine Brexit is because there is

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this vacuum. It is being filled with all sorts of briefing from the other

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side. There is a real risk in the minds of Brexit supporting MPs that

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the remaining side are going to try to hijack the process, not only

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through the Supreme Court action, which I think most Brexit MPs seem

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to accept the appeal will fail, but further down the line, through

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amendments to the great repeal bill. This is a pressure group to try to

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hold the Prime Minister to account. There is plenty of pressure on the

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Prime Minister effectively to stay in the single market and the customs

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union, and if you do both of these things, de facto, you have stayed in

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the EU. She is in a difficult position because there is no good

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faith assumption about what Theresa May wants because she was a

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Remainer. There is all this talk about a transitional arrangement,

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but she can't sell that as someone who voted to remain. The way Isabel

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has characterised it is interesting. There is a betrayal narrative.

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Everyone is looking to say that she has betrayed the true Brexit. Since

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the Government cannot give a clear indication of what it once in terms

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of the customs union, which sets external tariffs, or the single

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market, which is the free movement of people, capital, goods and

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services, others are filling this vacuum. Right. The reasons they

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can't do this are, first, they don't know if they can get it or not. We

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saw this with the renegotiation the last Prime Minister. What are they

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hoping to get? The world on a stick, to get cake and eat it. You go into

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a negotiation saying, let's see what we can get in total. Are they going

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to ask the membership of the single market? Yellow I think they will ask

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for a free trade agreement involving everything. You can demand what you

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want. The question is, do they stand a cat's chance in hell of getting

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it? They don't know. Welcome back. We will be back, believe me. It is

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150 day since we found out the UK had voted to leave the EU, but as we

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have heard, remain and leave campaigners continue to battle about

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what type of relationship we should have with the EU after exit.

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Leave campaigners say that leaving the EU

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also means quitting the

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Single Market, the internal European trading bloc that includes free

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movement of goods, services, capital and people.

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They point to evidence that leading Leave supporting

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politicians ruled out staying in the Single Market during

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Andrea Leadsom, for example, said it would almost

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certainly be the case that the UK would come out of the Single Market.

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When asked for a yes or no on whether the UK should stay

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"No, we should be outside the Single Market."

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And Boris Johnson agreed with his erstwhile ally, saying, "Michael

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Gove was absolutely right to say the UK

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They've released a video of clips of Leave campaigners speaking before

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the referendum apparently saying that the UK should stay in the

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Nigel Farage, for example, once said that on leaving

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the EU we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area

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Owen Paterson, the former Environment Secretary,

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once made the startling statement that only a madman would actually

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And Matthew Elliott, the Vote Leave chief, said

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that the Norwegian option would be initially attractive for some

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But do these quotes create an accurate picture of what

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To cast some light on where these quotes came from we're

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joined by James McGrory, director of Open Britain

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Welcome to the Sunday Politics. . Your video has statements from leave

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campaigners hinting they want to stay in the single market. How many

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were made during the referendum campaign? I don't know. Not one was

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made during the referendum campaign. Indeed, only two of the 12

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statements were recorded after Royal assent had been given to the

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referendum. Only one was made this year before the referendum.

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Throughout the campaign am a leave campaigners lauded the Norwegian

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model. Norway are in the single market but not in the EU. They went

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out of their way not to be pinned down on a specific trading

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arrangement they want to see in the future with Europe, when the

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Treasury model the different models it was the EEA or a free-trade

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agreement. I understand. Does it not undermine your case that none of the

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12 statements on your video were made during the campaign itself

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when people were giving really serious thought to such matters The

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Leave campaign weren't giving serious thought to such matters

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They did not set out the future trading model they wanted to see.

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But you cannot produce a single video with somebody saying we should

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stay in the single market during the campaign. Daniel Hanna had talked

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about the Norwegian model as a future option. One comment from

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Nigel Farage dates back to 2009 when we didn't even know if we would

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have a referendum or not. Does it not stretch credibility to go back

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to the time when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister? The overall point

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stands. It is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of the options.

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Daniel Hannan, described as the intellectual godfather of the Leave

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movement is saying that no one is talking about threatening our place

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in the signal market. I think it's legitimate to point out the Leave

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campaign never came forward with a credible argument. We have

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highlighted some of the quotes you picked out from leave campaigners

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over time. Do you think you have fully encapsulated their arguments

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accurately? I don't think in a 2nd video you can talk about the full

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thing. -- a 90-2nd video. Some of them want to seek a free-trade

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agreement, some to default on to World Trade Organisation tariffs.

:15:49.:15:56.

There is a range of opinion in the Leave campaign. Let's listen to the

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clip you used on Owen Paterson first.

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Only a madman would actually leave the market.

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Only a madman would actually leave the market.

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It's not the EU which is

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a political organisation delivering the prosperity and buying our goods.

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It's the market, it's the members of the market and we'll carry on

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I mean, are we really suggesting that the

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economy in the world is not going to come to come

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to a satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU?

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Are we going to be like Sudan and North

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It is ludicrous this idea that we are going to leap off a

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What he said when he said only a madman would leave Europe, was that

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we would continue to trade, we would continue to have access. Any country

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in the world can have access. What the Leave campaign suggested is our

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trade would continue uninterrupted, they are still at it today, David

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Davis used the phrase, uninterrupted, from the dispatch box

:16:58.:17:01.

recently. You misrepresented him by saying only a madman would leave the

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Single Market and stopped it there, because he goes onto say that of

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course we want Leave in the sense of continuing to have access. I don't

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think he was about axis, he is talking

:17:11.:17:29.

about membership. He doesn't use the word membership at all. He talks

:17:30.:17:31.

about we are going to carry on trading with them, we will not leap

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off, we will carry on trading. Anybody can trade with the EU, it's

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the terms on which you trade that is important and leave campaigners and

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Patterson is an example of this saying we can trade as we do now,

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the government saying we can trade without bureaucratic impediments and

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tariff free. The viewers will make up their mind. Let's listen to the

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views of Matthew Elliott, the Chief Executive of Vote Leave.

:17:47.:17:48.

When it comes to the Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that

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it might be initially attractive for some business people.

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So you then cut him off there but this is what he went on to say in

:17:54.:17:57.

the same clip, let's listen to that. When it comes to the Norwegian

:17:58.:18:01.

option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive

:18:02.:18:04.

for some business people. But then again for voters

:18:05.:18:06.

who are increasingly concerned about migration in the EU,

:18:07.:18:09.

they will be very concerned that it allows free movement

:18:10.:18:12.

of people to continue. Again, you have misrepresented him.

:18:13.:18:24.

He said the Norwegian model has attractions but there are real

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problems if it involves free movement of people, which it does.

:18:27.:18:31.

But you cut that bit out. I challenge anyone to represent them

:18:32.:18:34.

accurately because they took such a range of opinions. I don't know what

:18:35.:18:38.

we are supposed to do. You are misrepresenting them. He is saying

:18:39.:18:42.

the Norwegian option is attractive to business, I understand why. It

:18:43.:18:46.

might not be attractive for voters. But then he said if it allowed free

:18:47.:18:53.

movement of people it could be an issue. You took that out. You are

:18:54.:18:57.

saying this is a definitive position. I'm suggesting you are

:18:58.:19:00.

distorting it. This is what you had Mr Farage say.

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On D+1 we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area

:19:04.:19:05.

This is what he then went on to say in that same clip that you didn t

:19:06.:19:13.

run. There is absolutely

:19:14.:19:14.

nothing to fear in terms of trade from leaving

:19:15.:19:16.

the on D+1 we'll find ourselves part

:19:17.:19:17.

of the European Economic Area and we should use our

:19:18.:19:21.

membership of the EEA as a holding position from which

:19:22.:19:30.

we can negotiate as the European Union's biggest export

:19:31.:19:33.

market in the world, as good a deal, my goodness me,

:19:34.:19:36.

if Switzerland can have one we So there again, he says not that we

:19:37.:19:46.

should stay in the Single Market as a member, but that we stay in the EA

:19:47.:19:51.

as a transition until we negotiate something. -- EEA. This whole clip

:19:52.:20:01.

is online, how would you get away with this distortion? It is not a

:20:02.:20:05.

distortion, the whole point is to point out they do not have a

:20:06.:20:08.

definitive position, he is arguing for membership of the Single Market,

:20:09.:20:11.

for a transitional period. For the transition. How long does that go

:20:12.:20:16.

on, what does he want to then achieve? Not very quickly but he

:20:17.:20:19.

does not say we should stay members of the Single Market and you didn't

:20:20.:20:23.

let people see what he went on to say, you gave the impression he

:20:24.:20:26.

wanted to stay in the one it. It would not be a video then, it would

:20:27.:20:30.

be a seven-week long lecture. They took so many positions, and the idea

:20:31.:20:34.

now that they were clear with people that we should definitely leave the

:20:35.:20:37.

Single Market I think is fictitious. You are trying to make out they all

:20:38.:20:41.

had one position which was to remain members of the one it. You see the

:20:42.:20:46.

full clips that is not what they are saying. We are trying to point out

:20:47.:20:50.

there is no mandate to leave the Single Market. The idea the Leave

:20:51.:20:53.

campaign spoke with unanimity and clarity of purpose and throughout

:20:54.:20:57.

the whole campaign said we will definitely leave the Single Market

:20:58.:21:01.

is not true. That is the whole point of the media. We showed in the

:21:02.:21:05.

montage in the video just before we came on, we said that then Prime

:21:06.:21:09.

Minister, the then Chancellor, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, being

:21:10.:21:12.

categorical that if you vote to leave the EU, you vote to leave

:21:13.:21:15.

membership of the Single Market What bit of that didn't you

:21:16.:21:19.

understand? Under duress they occasionally said they wanted to

:21:20.:21:22.

leave. Some of them wanted to leave the Single Market. All of the other

:21:23.:21:28.

promises they made, whether ?35 million for the NHS, whether a VAT

:21:29.:21:33.

cut on fuel, points-based system. You do not have a single quote of

:21:34.:21:36.

any of these members saying they want to be a member. Daniel Hannan

:21:37.:21:40.

has said consistently that Norway are a part of the Single Market You

:21:41.:21:45.

spend the referendum campaign criticising for Rim misrepresenting

:21:46.:21:47.

and misrepresenting and lying and many thought they did. Having seen

:21:48.:21:50.

this many will conclude that you are the biggest liars. I think it is

:21:51.:21:54.

perfectly reasonable to point out that the Leave campaign did not have

:21:55.:21:57.

a clear position on our future trading relationship with Europe.

:21:58.:22:01.

That is all this video does. It doesn't say we definitely have to

:22:02.:22:04.

stay in the Single Market, it just says they do have a mandate to drag

:22:05.:22:09.

us out of our biggest trading partner.

:22:10.:22:11.

Now people have seen the full quotes in context our viewers will make up

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their mind. Thank you. Now - voting closes next week

:22:14.:22:15.

in the the Ukip leadership contest. The second Ukip leadership contest

:22:16.:22:18.

this year after the party's first female leader - Diane James -

:22:19.:22:20.

stood down from the role Since then the party's lurched from

:22:21.:22:23.

farce to fiasco. It's a world gripped by uncertainty,

:22:24.:22:26.

split into factions. Yes, 2, because they're

:22:27.:22:42.

having their second Watch as the alpha male,

:22:43.:22:51.

the Ukip leader at Nigel Watch as the alpha male,

:22:52.:22:59.

the Ukip leader Nigel Farage, hands power to the new alpha

:23:00.:23:01.

female Diane James. The European Parliament

:23:02.:23:04.

in Strasbourg, October. Another leading light and possible

:23:05.:23:18.

future leader, the MEP Steven Wolfe,

:23:19.:23:21.

has been laid low after an alleged tussle with a colleague

:23:22.:23:23.

during a meeting. A few days later he is

:23:24.:23:26.

out of hospital and I will be withdrawing my

:23:27.:23:28.

application to become I'm actually withdrawing

:23:29.:23:32.

myself from Ukip. You're resigning from the party

:23:33.:23:35.

I'm resigning with immediate effect. And this week a leaked document

:23:36.:23:41.

suggested the party improperly spent EU funds on political

:23:42.:23:45.

campaigning in the UK. Another headache for whoever takes

:23:46.:23:50.

over the leadership of the pack One contender is Suzanne Evans,

:23:51.:23:56.

a former Tory councillor and was briefly suspended for

:23:57.:23:59.

disloyalty. Also standing, Paul Nuttall,

:24:00.:24:08.

an MEP from Liverpool who has been by Farage's side

:24:09.:24:11.

as his deputy for six years. There's another big beast

:24:12.:24:17.

in the Ukip leadership contest, and I'm told

:24:18.:24:19.

that today he can be spotted He's John Rees-Evans,

:24:20.:24:22.

a businessman and adventurer who is offering members the chance

:24:23.:24:27.

to propose policies via a website We've got really dedicated

:24:28.:24:30.

passionate supporters who feel like they're not really

:24:31.:24:44.

being listened to and are not even Typically what happens

:24:45.:24:46.

is they just basically sit there until six months before

:24:47.:24:49.

a General Election when they are contacted and asked to go out

:24:50.:24:52.

and leaflet and canvas. Even at branch level people feel

:24:53.:24:55.

there is not an adequate flow of communication

:24:56.:24:57.

up-and-down the party. Are you not going to take part in

:24:58.:24:59.

any hustings? He left a hustings saying

:25:00.:25:08.

the contest was an establishment coronation and has

:25:09.:25:11.

made colourful comments in the past. He's in favour of the death penalty

:25:12.:25:14.

for crimes like paedophilia. I think there is a clear

:25:15.:25:16.

will amongst the offences should be dealt with

:25:17.:25:18.

decisively. But again, on an issue like that,

:25:19.:25:22.

that is something that Our members are not

:25:23.:25:24.

going to agree with me on everything and I don't believe that

:25:25.:25:30.

I would have any authority to have the say and determine

:25:31.:25:32.

the future What method would you use

:25:33.:25:34.

for the death penalty? Again, that is something that could

:25:35.:25:38.

be determined by suggestions made So you'd have like an online

:25:39.:25:40.

poll about whether you use the electric chair,

:25:41.:25:45.

or lethal injection? For example, arguments would be made

:25:46.:25:50.

in favour of This is such a small aspect

:25:51.:25:53.

of what I'm standing for. Essentially, in mainstream media

:25:54.:25:57.

they try to by focusing on pretty irrelevant

:25:58.:25:59.

details. This is one vote that

:26:00.:26:05.

the membership would have. What I'm actually trying to do

:26:06.:26:07.

in this party is to revolutionise the democratic

:26:08.:26:11.

process in the UK, and that's really what your viewers should

:26:12.:26:14.

be concentrating on. With him at the helm he reckons Ukip

:26:15.:26:18.

would win at Meanwhile, in New York,

:26:19.:26:20.

on a visit to Trump Tower, Nigel Farage admired the plumage

:26:21.:26:28.

of the President-elect, a man he has described as

:26:29.:26:37.

a silverback gorilla, a friendship that's been condemned by some

:26:38.:26:39.

in this leadership contest. There are also elections

:26:40.:26:42.

to the party's National Executive Committee, a body

:26:43.:26:44.

that's been roundly criticised by And we're joined now by two

:26:45.:26:47.

of the candidates in the Ukip leadership election -

:26:48.:27:02.

Suzanne Evans and Paul Nuttall. We are going to kick off by giving

:27:03.:27:12.

each of them 30 seconds to lay out their case as to why they would be

:27:13.:27:15.

the less leader starting with Suzanne Evans.

:27:16.:27:18.

Ukip is at its best when it is scaring the political establishment,

:27:19.:27:21.

forcing it to address those problems it would rather ignore. But it

:27:22.:27:25.

really change people's lives for the better and fast, we need to win

:27:26.:27:29.

seats and elections right across the country. To win at the ballot box we

:27:30.:27:33.

need to attract more women, more ethnic

:27:34.:27:52.

minorities, and more of those Labour voters who no longer recognise their

:27:53.:27:55.

party. I know how to do that. Ukip under my

:27:56.:27:58.

leadership will be the same page about it, common-sense, radical

:27:59.:28:00.

party it has always been, just even more successful. Thank you, Suzanne

:28:01.:28:02.

Evans, Paul Nuttall. I'm standing on a platform of unity and experience.

:28:03.:28:05.

I believe the party must come together if it is to survive and

:28:06.:28:07.

prosper. I believe I'm the best candidate to ensure that happens, I

:28:08.:28:10.

am not part of any faction in the party, and beyond that I have done

:28:11.:28:13.

every single job within the party, whether that is as head of policy,

:28:14.:28:15.

whether that is Party Chairman, deputy leader for Nigel for the past

:28:16.:28:18.

six years. I believe Ukip has great opportunities in Labour

:28:19.:28:20.

constituencies where we can move in and become the Patriot invoice of

:28:21.:28:24.

working people, and beyond that we have to ensure the government's feet

:28:25.:28:27.

are held to the fire on Brexit and we get real Brexit, not a

:28:28.:28:34.

mealy-mouthed version. How will you get a grip on this? People have to

:28:35.:28:38.

realise that the cause is bigger than any personality, we have to get

:28:39.:28:42.

together in a room and sort out not just a spokespeople role but roles

:28:43.:28:45.

within the organisation, Party Chairman, party secretary, and

:28:46.:28:50.

whatnot. But as I say, Ukip must unite, we are on 13% in the opinion

:28:51.:28:54.

polls, the future is bright, there are open goals but Ukip must be on

:28:55.:28:59.

the pitch to score them. He says he's the only one that can get a

:29:00.:29:02.

grip on this party. I disagree, I have a huge amount of experience in

:29:03.:29:06.

the party as well and also a background that I think means I can

:29:07.:29:09.

help bring people together. I have always said nothing breeds unity

:29:10.:29:19.

faster than success and under my leadership we will be successful.

:29:20.:29:22.

There is concern about the future of our National Executive Committee

:29:23.:29:24.

going forward. Mr Farage called it the lowest grade of people I have

:29:25.:29:27.

ever met, do you agree? I think he must have been having a bad day I

:29:28.:29:30.

think we need to make it more accountable to the membership, more

:29:31.:29:33.

open, more democratic. What would you do with the National Executive

:29:34.:29:38.

Committee? I have been calling for the National Executive Committee to

:29:39.:29:41.

be elected reasonably since 201 giving the members better

:29:42.:29:44.

communication lines and make it far more transparent. Would you have a

:29:45.:29:48.

clear out of the office? I wouldn't, I think the chairman of the party,

:29:49.:29:53.

Paul Upton, the interim chairman, is doing a good job and the only person

:29:54.:29:57.

who has come out of the summer with his reputation enhanced. Let me show

:29:58.:30:00.

you a picture we have all seen of your current leader, Mr Farage, with

:30:01.:30:07.

President-elect Donald Trump. Paul Nuttall, you criticise Mr Farage's

:30:08.:30:10.

decision to appear at rallies during the American election and called Mr

:30:11.:30:15.

Trump appalling. Do you stick by that? I wouldn't have voted for him.

:30:16.:30:20.

I made it clear. Do you still think he's appalling now that he is

:30:21.:30:23.

President-elect? Some of the things he said were appalling during the

:30:24.:30:29.

campaign that he said. But he would be good for Britain, trade,

:30:30.:30:31.

pro-Brexit and he is an Anglo file and the first thing he did was put

:30:32.:30:35.

the bust of Winston Churchill back in the Oval Office. You, Suzanne

:30:36.:30:41.

Evans, called Mr Trump one of the weakest candidates the US has had. I

:30:42.:30:45.

said the same about Hillary Clinton. They cannot both be the weakest The

:30:46.:30:49.

better candidate on either side would have beaten the other, that is

:30:50.:30:53.

quite clear. Do you stand by that, or are you glad that your leader Mr

:30:54.:30:58.

Farage has strong ties to him? I am, why wouldn't I be? For Ukip to have

:30:59.:31:03.

that direct connection, it can be only good for a party. Were you not

:31:04.:31:07.

out of step and Mr Farage is in step because it looks like your vote is

:31:08.:31:10.

according to polling I have seemed like Mr Trump and his policies? Let

:31:11.:31:16.

me finish. If I am the leader of Ukip I will not be involving myself

:31:17.:31:19.

in foreign elections, I will because in trading here in this country

:31:20.:31:23.

ensuring we get Ukip people elected to council chambers and get seats in

:31:24.:31:24.

2020. The other thing your leader has in

:31:25.:31:34.

common with Mr Trump is that he rather admires Vladimir Putin. Do

:31:35.:31:41.

you? I don't. If you look at Putin's record, he has invaded Ukraine and

:31:42.:31:48.

Georgia. I am absolutely not a fan. I think that Vladimir Putin is

:31:49.:31:52.

pretty much a nasty man, but beyond that, I believe that in the Middle

:31:53.:31:57.

East, he is generally getting it right in many areas. We need to

:31:58.:32:03.

bring the conflict... Bombing civilians? We need to bring the

:32:04.:32:08.

conflict to an end as fast as possible. The British and American

:32:09.:32:12.

line before Donald Trump is to support rebels, including one is

:32:13.:32:19.

affiliated to Al-Qaeda, to the Taliban. We need to clear these

:32:20.:32:23.

people out and ensure that Syria becomes stable. This controversial

:32:24.:32:31.

breaking point poster from during the referendum campaign. Mr Farage

:32:32.:32:34.

unveiled it, there he is standing in front of it. You can bend it - do

:32:35.:32:39.

you still? Yes, I think it was the wrong poster at the wrong time. I

:32:40.:32:43.

was involved with the vote Leave campaign as well as Ukip's campaign,

:32:44.:32:48.

and I felt strongly that those concerned about immigration were

:32:49.:32:51.

already going to vote to leave because it was a fundamental truth

:32:52.:32:55.

that unless we left the European Union we couldn't control

:32:56.:32:57.

immigration. I thought it was about approaching those soft wavering

:32:58.:33:06.

voters who weren't sure. I don't think I said it was racist, but it

:33:07.:33:10.

was about sovereignty and trade and so forth. That was where we needed

:33:11.:33:14.

to go. I was concerned it might put off some of those wavering voters.

:33:15.:33:19.

People may well say, it was part of the winning campaign. It was Ukip

:33:20.:33:25.

shock and all, which is what you stand for and what makes you

:33:26.:33:32.

different. I said I would know how that I said I would not have gone

:33:33.:33:35.

for that person and I thought it was wrong to do it just a week out from

:33:36.:33:38.

the referendum. However, I believe it released legitimate concerns

:33:39.:33:45.

with a deluge of people making their way from the Middle East and Africa

:33:46.:33:53.

into the European continent. Where is the low hanging fruit for you,

:33:54.:33:56.

particularly in England? Is it Labour or Conservative voters? I

:33:57.:34:01.

want to hang onto the Conservative voters we have got but I think the

:34:02.:34:07.

low hanging fruit is Labour. Jeremy Corbyn won't sing the national

:34:08.:34:11.

anthem, Emily Thornbury despises the English flag. Diane Abbott thinks

:34:12.:34:15.

anyone talking about immigration is racist. Not to mention John

:34:16.:34:19.

McDonnell's feelings about the IRA. Labour has ceased to be a party for

:34:20.:34:23.

working people and I think Ukip is absolutely going to be that party.

:34:24.:34:28.

It is clear, I absolutely concur with everything Suzanne has said. I

:34:29.:34:34.

first voiced this back in 2008 that I believe Ukip has a fantastic

:34:35.:34:37.

opportunity in working-class communities, and everyone laughed at

:34:38.:34:41.

me. It is clear now that we resonate with working people, and you have

:34:42.:34:44.

seen that in the Brexit result. Would you bring back the death

:34:45.:34:51.

penalty? It wouldn't be Ukip policy. Absolutely not. Would you give more

:34:52.:34:55.

money to the NHS and how would your fanatic? You like it is important to

:34:56.:34:58.

fund it adequately, and it hasn t been to date. We promised in our

:34:59.:35:08.

manifesto that we would give more money. Where does the money come

:35:09.:35:13.

from? It is about tackling health tourism. I think the NHS is being

:35:14.:35:18.

taken for a ride at the moment. That may be right, but where does the

:35:19.:35:23.

money come from? It is about scaling back management in the NHS, because

:35:24.:35:27.

that has burgeoned beyond control. They are spending far more money on

:35:28.:35:32.

management. Where would you save money? We need to look at HS two,

:35:33.:35:37.

foreign aid. Now we have Brexit and we will be saving on the membership

:35:38.:35:42.

fee. We need to cut back on management, as Suzanne says. It

:35:43.:35:45.

cannot be right that 51% of people who work for the NHS in England are

:35:46.:35:52.

not clinically qualified. The NHS needs money now - where would you

:35:53.:35:58.

get it? From HS two. That is capital spending spread over a long period.

:35:59.:36:04.

Where will you get the money now? OK, another one. We spent ?25

:36:05.:36:08.

million every day on foreign aid to countries who sometimes are richer

:36:09.:36:13.

than ourselves. Through the Barnett formula. You would take money away

:36:14.:36:17.

from Scotland? Yes, I think they get far too much. PG tips or Earl Grey?

:36:18.:36:33.

Colegrave. PG tips. Strictly come dancing or X Factor? Neither.

:36:34.:36:41.

Strictly. I would love to be on it one day. There you go. Thank you

:36:42.:36:46.

It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:36:47.:36:50.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:36:51.:36:53.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

:36:54.:37:53.

I'm Julia George and this is the Sunday Politics

:37:54.:37:55.

Coming up later: Planning a walk after Sunday lunch?

:37:56.:37:58.

We find out what can be dond if your local footpaths aren't

:37:59.:38:01.

Joining me in the studio today are Tom Tugendhat, Conservative MP

:38:02.:38:05.

for Tonbridge and Malling and Liberal Democrat MEP

:38:06.:38:06.

for the south east, Catherine Bearder.

:38:07.:38:08.

Do you regularly use your local post office?

:38:09.:38:13.

Does it matter to you where it's located?

:38:14.:38:15.

If the counters are in a newsagent, or even a church is that just

:38:16.:38:18.

as good as an old-fashioned stand-alone post office?

:38:19.:38:21.

We'll hear shortly from Tom Tugenhadt about why he's

:38:22.:38:23.

fighting to stop Tonbridge post office moving into

:38:24.:38:24.

But first Sara Neville has been to Tom's constituency

:38:25.:38:28.

and to Whistable to find out what campaigners and customdrs want.

:38:29.:38:30.

The Post Office has been a cornerstone of the communhty

:38:31.:38:33.

Not just somewhere to buy stamps but a local harbour,

:38:34.:38:36.

Not just somewhere to buy stamps but a local hub,

:38:37.:38:39.

a treasured provider of many essential services.

:38:40.:38:40.

Branches like this one in H`rlow are slowly disappearing

:38:41.:38:42.

from our high streets, replaced with franchisees,

:38:43.:38:44.

often in the newsagent, supermarket or petrol station.

:38:45.:38:46.

Because the Post Office is changing, going through an aggressive

:38:47.:38:48.

cost-cutting and modernisathon programme, that many

:38:49.:38:50.

in the south-east is costing jobs and eroding vital local services.

:38:51.:38:52.

Since splitting from the Roxal Mail in 2012, the ailing post office has

:38:53.:38:56.

been propped up by nearly ?2 billion from the government.

:38:57.:38:58.

In Kent and Sussex, there are now around 400 branches, but 97.5%

:38:59.:39:01.

Leaving just ten in the hands of the Post Office, known

:39:02.:39:05.

The growing town of Tonbridge has one of them.

:39:06.:39:14.

The Post Office wants to move this ultramodern stand-alone branch

:39:15.:39:16.

from here 100 metres around the corner to hear,

:39:17.:39:18.

The Post Office says it will retain its Crown status,

:39:19.:39:22.

but almost 1500 people have signed a petition opposing the plan.

:39:23.:39:24.

You go in the post office on Monday on pension day and you

:39:25.:39:28.

If they moved it to a retail outlet around the corner, it

:39:29.:39:32.

It's not going to be any good for us.

:39:33.:39:38.

Having their own premises is beneficial, but it is a sign

:39:39.:39:41.

Whitstable, another town, another campaign.

:39:42.:39:43.

This church, tucked away in a backstreet, now houses

:39:44.:39:46.

after months of seeing people queueing outside

:39:47.:39:58.

But the tranquillity of this new location belies the furx

:39:59.:40:03.

of local people who say thehr town needs and accessible

:40:04.:40:05.

This is a temporary solution put forward by the communitx.

:40:06.:40:11.

What we need is a proper post office, which we had

:40:12.:40:14.

until Post Office Limited used the closure of the old building

:40:15.:40:17.

We demonstrated against that, we occupied the building,

:40:18.:40:25.

we shamed the company into providing a temporary portakabin servhce.

:40:26.:40:27.

But franchisees are not secure and our town needs

:40:28.:40:30.

Unions representing post office workers blame

:40:31.:40:43.

It is a public institution which is much cherished,

:40:44.:40:49.

with great heritage, and it is being run into thd ground.

:40:50.:40:52.

It has a business plan which quite frankly will never

:40:53.:40:54.

It has been shrinking now for over 28 years.

:40:55.:40:58.

It's half the size that it used to be.

:40:59.:41:06.

And it's the Crown Offices that they are now franchising,

:41:07.:41:08.

This week, impassioned MPs let to discuss the issue.

:41:09.:41:13.

The minister responsible sahd services have to be viable.

:41:14.:41:18.

We cannot keep these Crown Post Offices open,

:41:19.:41:20.

losing money, and stick to our commitment to keep

:41:21.:41:23.

and semirural areas where very often it's the only

:41:24.:41:30.

And I think really, for somd of these crimes that are closing,

:41:31.:41:34.

for customers to be walking a very short distance away,

:41:35.:41:37.

sometimes into a more convenient location to a WH Smith,

:41:38.:41:39.

is a very small price to pax, to keep this network operathng.

:41:40.:41:43.

Back on the high street, post offices are preparing

:41:44.:41:45.

Meanwhile, a public consult`tion on Post Office finance has begun.

:41:46.:41:57.

But where will you be going to post your parcels?

:41:58.:41:59.

Joining me now from Westminster is Mark Davis from the Post office.

:42:00.:42:03.

Joining me now from Westminster is Mark Davis from the Post Office.

:42:04.:42:06.

I want to start with the local issues in Tonbridge and then move

:42:07.:42:11.

What do you say to the people in Tonbridge who are worried

:42:12.:42:15.

that this move of their dedhcated modern post office to WHSmith

:42:16.:42:17.

will make things more difficult for them?

:42:18.:42:23.

We always understand when communities are concerned about the

:42:24.:42:28.

changes we make to the servhce because the post office service is

:42:29.:42:35.

very important. People get very conscious when were making changes

:42:36.:42:40.

and sometimes concern. In Tonbridge, we are proposing to move thd brand

:42:41.:42:45.

is 100 metres to WH Smith. That model has worked well in thd past.

:42:46.:42:50.

We have had a partnership for around ten years. They host branchds across

:42:51.:42:57.

the country. Just to correct some of the things in your report, the idea

:42:58.:43:01.

that franchising is something new for the post office is a fallacy. It

:43:02.:43:10.

has been the model for decades. In Tunbridge, we will absolutely be

:43:11.:43:16.

moving the same level of service and support to the new WHSmith with an

:43:17.:43:21.

improved environment, with hmproved facilities, with all the sale

:43:22.:43:28.

services and level of staff. You have a very modern purpose-built

:43:29.:43:31.

building. You can't have designed that very well if putting the post

:43:32.:43:36.

office into the back of a shop is better than that? We take m`ny

:43:37.:43:44.

considerations into account. Demographic, the local area, a huge

:43:45.:43:46.

amount of work goes into pl`nning these things. How can we provide the

:43:47.:43:52.

best possible services for our customers going forward? In the most

:43:53.:43:59.

efficient and effective way? At the same time, reducing the burden we

:44:00.:44:07.

have on the taxpayer. We were losing ?120 million of public monex four

:44:08.:44:12.

years ago. We have reduced that down to ?26 million. We will be breaking

:44:13.:44:17.

even within a very short period of time. The business is not ahling.

:44:18.:44:21.

The same number of staff and The same number of staff and

:44:22.:44:25.

full-time equivalent posts, the opening hours will be at le`st as

:44:26.:44:30.

good and there will be seathng for elderly and disabled customdrs?

:44:31.:44:35.

Absolutely. The manager of the Crown network was meeting the loc`l MP on

:44:36.:44:40.

Friday to reassure him about some of the points raised in the

:44:41.:44:46.

consultation. Let's turn to which the ball. The post office there is

:44:47.:44:50.

currently housed in the church. Is there any news on a permanent site?

:44:51.:44:57.

That is a town which must h`ve a post office service. It will have

:44:58.:45:02.

one in the future. Absolutely. Particular factors led to the

:45:03.:45:11.

closure of the Crown branch. We had a site lined up but the ret`iler

:45:12.:45:17.

pulled out. Doesn't that illustrate the rather precarious naturd of this

:45:18.:45:22.

arrangement with shops? Of `ll of the franchise branches we h`ve had,

:45:23.:45:27.

there is not a single example of a franchise branch closing. 4000 post

:45:28.:45:33.

office branches are open today on a Sunday. This idea that somehow the

:45:34.:45:36.

post office is in crisis fr`nkly post office is in crisis fr`nkly

:45:37.:45:40.

doesn't bear any kind of serious scrutiny. We are at the heart of

:45:41.:45:46.

every single community. We `re the cornerstone. We have been for 3 0

:45:47.:45:50.

years and we will continue to be sought for many more years hnto the

:45:51.:45:54.

future, thanks to the work we have done over the last four years to

:45:55.:46:01.

transform the network. 7000 branches across the UK. We have extended

:46:02.:46:12.

opening hours. In our region, the extended opening hours is the

:46:13.:46:18.

equivalent of opening anothdr 1 0 branches. We're reinventing

:46:19.:46:25.

ourselves to deliver a great service for our users. The government has

:46:26.:46:29.

just published details on how the social value of the post office

:46:30.:46:35.

network is considered. It is estimated at something betwden four

:46:36.:46:40.

are increasingly performing that are increasingly performing that

:46:41.:46:45.

role as a retail hub in the cornerstone of communities, postal

:46:46.:46:48.

services, banking services `nd retail all under the same roof.

:46:49.:46:56.

Still touching every single community and at the heart of it.

:46:57.:47:01.

Thank you. Reassurance about the level of service when the Ttnbridge

:47:02.:47:07.

post office moves into WHSmhth. Your own minister doesn't really see it

:47:08.:47:11.

as the biggest of issues, btt you describe it on your website as a

:47:12.:47:13.

real blow to the town. Why? It is. A real blow to the town. Why? It is. A

:47:14.:47:22.

lot of people who use the post office or from people who are ageing

:47:23.:47:32.

or have mobility issues. In the current location, it is right next

:47:33.:47:36.

to a car park and some disabled parking spaces. Moving at 100 yards

:47:37.:47:45.

doesn't sound like a lot to you or me because we are capable of walking

:47:46.:47:50.

100 yards, but for a lot of people with mobility issues, that hs

:47:51.:47:51.

actually quite a challenge. You re actually quite a challenge. You re

:47:52.:47:54.

asking people to either get help or asking people to either get help or

:47:55.:48:01.

to book something in order to have that support. Know that's not right.

:48:02.:48:07.

You see local people are ag`inst the plans from the post office? What is

:48:08.:48:14.

your evidence? In the last ten days, I have collected 1500 signatures.

:48:15.:48:21.

This is the fastest and most efficient response I have h`d to any

:48:22.:48:25.

petition. I have been stopphng people in the street. 99% h`ve been

:48:26.:48:35.

against it. I looked up your question posted. It is a little

:48:36.:48:39.

disingenuous. Do you agree that the post office should remain open? Do

:48:40.:48:44.

you have any comments to make about the proposed closure? If I was asked

:48:45.:48:49.

that question, I wouldn't rdalise it was just moving 100 yards around the

:48:50.:48:53.

corner. You have made it sotnd like it is going to disappear. This comes

:48:54.:49:00.

straight under an article that explains exactly what is happening.

:49:01.:49:06.

I was explaining to people what was happening. It's not a stand,alone

:49:07.:49:17.

question. Ione raise it. It is absolutely accurate the closing

:49:18.:49:21.

stand-alone post offices. That is true. Nobody is disputing that. We

:49:22.:49:27.

are talking about accessibility It really is quite something when you

:49:28.:49:31.

have just invested several thousand pounds of doing up our post`l

:49:32.:49:34.

office, as they have done in Tom Bridge, in order to make it more

:49:35.:49:39.

accessible and easier for pdople to use, do then throw that awax and

:49:40.:49:45.

move it to WHSmith. Do you `dmire this campaign? Essentially he is

:49:46.:49:53.

taking on his own government. Absolutely. Anyone who stands up for

:49:54.:49:58.

post offices is fighting for something that Liberal Democrats

:49:59.:50:03.

have been fighting for years. The keyword is service. What thdy want

:50:04.:50:11.

here in Tunbridge Wells and in other parts is a service they can access

:50:12.:50:18.

easily. Putting it inside a WHSmith is going to reduce that service He

:50:19.:50:25.

said the service level would remain the same. It's too late. Thdre will

:50:26.:50:36.

be queues and other people want to get to books and magazines. An

:50:37.:50:43.

increasing number of people in mobility scooters. It's a dhfferent

:50:44.:50:47.

model four times than it is in a village. Sometimes it is thd

:50:48.:50:50.

shop open. But in times where you shop open. But in times where you

:50:51.:50:56.

have far heavier footfall into a post office you need to keep that

:50:57.:51:04.

space. Let's all remember there is serious state funding of thd post

:51:05.:51:09.

office. In Westminster, you talked about the symbolic importance of the

:51:10.:51:14.

post office. With ?2 billion given in state aid to the post office

:51:15.:51:20.

between 2011 and 2018, can we afford the symbolism? The symbolisl unites

:51:21.:51:27.

the country, but this is about commerce. The internet generation

:51:28.:51:31.

has not replaced the post office, it has made it more useful. A lot of

:51:32.:51:38.

people have their post delivered once they have ordered them online.

:51:39.:51:43.

The post office is essential to that. When you return items, you

:51:44.:51:50.

have to go into the post office A town like Tom Bridge which hs

:51:51.:51:54.

growing so much just now, wd all know the number of homes gohng in,

:51:55.:52:00.

the footfall will increase. The government says it will havd funded

:52:01.:52:06.

?2 billion. State aid has to be approved by the European Colmission.

:52:07.:52:11.

After Brexit, the government will be able to spend whatever it lhkes Do

:52:12.:52:17.

you think they will get mord or less money? There will probably be less

:52:18.:52:25.

money to go all around. We will still be funding the Europe`n

:52:26.:52:30.

agency. But it will be tougher. When we were in coalition governlent

:52:31.:52:33.

Vince Cable sold off some of the Vince Cable sold off some of the

:52:34.:52:37.

post office which allowed them to raise some of their own caphtal as

:52:38.:52:42.

well. Government and privatd money is going to the post office and that

:52:43.:52:47.

deal was done so that they keep the post offices and keep up thd level

:52:48.:52:52.

of service. This closure of post offices right across the cotntry is

:52:53.:52:57.

not keeping that level of sdrvice up. The consultation is just

:52:58.:53:02.

causing. We will keep an eyd on this one and report back when we have a

:53:03.:53:04.

final decision. The South East has some verx

:53:05.:53:09.

fine walking country, with hundreds of miles of ptblic

:53:10.:53:11.

footpaths to enjoy. But the fun can be spoilt

:53:12.:53:13.

by obstructions and bad signage A survey just published

:53:14.:53:16.

by the Ramblers charity - and undertaken by thousands

:53:17.:53:19.

of walkers has revealed The citizen walkers revealed found

:53:20.:53:20.

more than 10,000 problems on paths in the South East The survex showed

:53:21.:53:24.

that 58% of paths were However, 6% of paths were poorly

:53:25.:53:27.

kept and difficult or impossible Lots of problems would have been

:53:28.:53:30.

around when marking, signs lissing, which means that people

:53:31.:53:49.

cannot find their way. That would've been one

:53:50.:53:51.

particular problem. Sometimes it's things like barbed

:53:52.:53:52.

wire or electric fences across a path which would h`ve

:53:53.:54:00.

caused an obstruction. There would've been a variety

:54:01.:54:02.

of different reasons around undergrowth and mud I would imagine

:54:03.:54:04.

during the winter months. So these were the types of problems

:54:05.:54:06.

that walkers were facing. Some of them would have been

:54:07.:54:10.

deliberate, most would have been would have been careless,

:54:11.:54:13.

all of it can be put right with a bit of effort and a bit

:54:14.:54:16.

of partnership working. Let's examine in a moment whose

:54:17.:54:19.

responsibility it should be to keep these footpath as good as they can

:54:20.:54:22.

be, but starting with you, you are a keen walker,

:54:23.:54:24.

what sort of condition are the footpaths in that

:54:25.:54:29.

you will like to walk? Well, the ones I have been walking

:54:30.:54:32.

recently been in very I walked with a friend from Dorking

:54:33.:54:34.

to my home near Edenbridge. And the paths were basicallx

:54:35.:54:38.

in pretty good nick. In some places, it is the county

:54:39.:54:48.

council and in some places ht's the borough, and in other places

:54:49.:54:58.

the parish and in places But if you walk areas

:54:59.:55:01.

like the Pilgrims Way, you will see there are some

:55:02.:55:10.

fantastic and beautiful parts of our country that are onlx

:55:11.:55:12.

accessible on foot and you can get it on some really beautiful

:55:13.:55:15.

and well kept footpaths. Let's pick up on whose

:55:16.:55:18.

responsibility it is to I mean, we expect local

:55:19.:55:20.

authorities in many areas But with ever diminishing btdgets,

:55:21.:55:23.

is it really fair to expect them? There is a statutory obligation

:55:24.:55:27.

to keep the footpath is well signed and clear,

:55:28.:55:29.

but actually have the financial Budgets are really under

:55:30.:55:31.

pressure at the moment. If you are juggling budgets,

:55:32.:55:35.

is it children's services, old people's services

:55:36.:55:37.

or way markers? It's very difficult

:55:38.:55:39.

to prioritise way marking. But there's a lot that

:55:40.:55:41.

the ramblers can do as well. If you are out walking and xou see

:55:42.:55:43.

something that is beginning that is beginning to break,

:55:44.:55:48.

report it then so it gets mdnded. If something is beginning to go

:55:49.:55:51.

it is easier and cheaper So it's a case of whatever

:55:52.:55:56.

you see, report it. Sometimes there are ways th`t

:55:57.:56:01.

walkers could take Sometimes if you go out with a pair

:56:02.:56:02.

of secateurs and the bramblds are coming over the path

:56:03.:56:11.

because it's not a well used one, just a judicial bit of cutthng back

:56:12.:56:14.

could save that footpath because it means people will

:56:15.:56:17.

continue to use it. And it's use it or lose

:56:18.:56:22.

it, these footpaths. We spoke to all our top tier

:56:23.:56:24.

authorities, but one exampld is they had to make savings of more

:56:25.:56:32.

than ?500,000 from this With cuts like that,

:56:33.:56:34.

it's going to be difficult for them to honour the statutory

:56:35.:56:38.

obligation, isn't it? It's tough to balance

:56:39.:56:40.

requirements in all these areas We all know it is simply not easy

:56:41.:56:46.

to make ends meet. Let's not forget, this is money

:56:47.:56:49.

taken from the taxpayer and so this is not simply free money th`t comes

:56:50.:56:52.

from Westminster, this is money that and all of the viewers' pockets

:56:53.:56:55.

in order to sustain local sdrvices. And balancing that is

:56:56.:57:02.

a really tough call. And so what we've got to do is we've

:57:03.:57:18.

got to look at how we can maintain these footpath

:57:19.:57:22.

so they are exactly as they should be, so we can enjoy the beatty

:57:23.:57:24.

of our county and our country. That will require a combination

:57:25.:57:27.

of National Trust, landowners, And now it's time for some

:57:28.:57:30.

of the other news you may h`ve missed in 60 Seconds

:57:31.:57:36.

with Yetunde Yusuf. Thanet District Council's fhnancial

:57:37.:57:37.

reserves have fallen to just over ?6.5 million,

:57:38.:57:39.

according to a report by auditors. Experts say the council was putting

:57:40.:57:47.

himself at a significant risk because its current reserves

:57:48.:57:49.

are less than a third of thd level The Thanet district leader

:57:50.:57:52.

Chris Wells said a number We mopped up in excess

:57:53.:57:56.

of ?14 million worth of foolish And in that context you would expect

:57:57.:58:00.

reserves to be a little A former nurse and Sussex MP has

:58:01.:58:04.

called for a law to have mandatory defribulators to save peopld

:58:05.:58:23.

during cardiac arrests. Maria Caulfield wants

:58:24.:58:25.

the life-saving device to come readily available

:58:26.:58:26.

in rural communities. And parents across Kent

:58:27.:58:28.

could be asked to stop Kent County Council

:58:29.:58:30.

is targeting Ashford and Canterbury which currently

:58:31.:58:32.

have an above-average It does encourage children to start

:58:33.:58:34.

smoking FTC parents do it. I do think it's a bit disrespectful

:58:35.:58:38.

that they are smoking at thd gate. Let's pick up on that idea

:58:39.:58:41.

that every community, particularly rural communithes,

:58:42.:58:43.

every school and sports Once you open it, a voice

:58:44.:58:56.

tells you what to do. I have often seen them on w`lls

:58:57.:59:18.

and thought I wouldn't know what to do with that, but if people

:59:19.:59:21.

know that the instructions are loud and clear,

:59:22.:59:24.

you would feel more confident. All the evidence shows that

:59:25.:59:26.

if you've got them there, Or is good first aid

:59:27.:59:29.

training more important? Well, as you know,

:59:30.:59:33.

they work together. And really please Maria

:59:34.:59:35.

is leading this campaign. She's a fantastic colleague

:59:36.:59:37.

and she is a great voice In fact, I have picked up on it

:59:38.:59:39.

myself and often when you ptt a later into phone box in a village,

:59:40.:59:45.

in various supermarkets we've put differently later is into

:59:46.:59:49.

the entrance, it's really important we get them as far

:59:50.:59:51.

and wide as possible. Thank you so much for

:59:52.:59:53.

coming in to today. never happened and will not happen

:59:54.:59:58.

in four years. It is subject we should spend more time on. Back to

:59:59.:59:59.

you. What will the Chancellor have to say

:00:00.:00:08.

in his first big economic statement? What impact will the forecasters say

:00:09.:00:12.

Brexit will have on the economy And who will face the Front

:00:13.:00:15.

National's Marine Le Pen in Well, the Shadow Chancellor

:00:16.:00:18.

and the Chancellor have both been touring the television

:00:19.:00:32.

studios this morning. Let's be clear, a lot of this

:00:33.:00:34.

is going to be gimmicks and press As I've said, in the

:00:35.:00:40.

pipeline, we've only seen one in five delivered

:00:41.:00:44.

to construction, that's all. So a lot of this will be a repeat

:00:45.:00:47.

of what I'm not going to reveal

:00:48.:00:49.

what I'm going to say on We don't have unlimited

:00:50.:00:53.

capacity, as one might imagine from listening

:00:54.:00:58.

to John McDonnell, to borrow hundreds of billions of pounds more

:00:59.:01:01.

for discretionary spending. That simply doesn't

:01:02.:01:05.

exist if we're going to retain this country's hard-won

:01:06.:01:09.

credibility in the financial markets if we are going to remain

:01:10.:01:11.

an attractive place for business to We didn't learn very much, Helen,

:01:12.:01:28.

but the papers were briefed this morning that there will be another

:01:29.:01:31.

?1.3 billion for roads and things like that. ?1.3 billion is 0.08 of

:01:32.:01:43.

our GDP. Not exactly an infrastructure investment programme,

:01:44.:01:46.

is it? Yellow like I have to say, it was not thrilling to read the

:01:47.:01:55.

details. -- I have to say... It is the first big financial statement

:01:56.:01:58.

that is going to come and I think there will be a big row about the

:01:59.:02:02.

OBE are forecast because they cannot set out a range, they have to commit

:02:03.:02:07.

to one forecast. Everything they do is incredibly political. DOB are is

:02:08.:02:16.

on a hiding to nothing. -- DOB are -- the Office for Budget

:02:17.:02:24.

Responsibility. I don't know how they will square the circle. It is

:02:25.:02:28.

an interesting week. It is all about the economy and public finances and

:02:29.:02:31.

we don't have to talk about Brexit until next Sunday, but no, I have a

:02:32.:02:36.

terrible feeling that by the end of Wednesday afternoon we will be

:02:37.:02:46.

screaming and shouting about how Brexit is going to be for the

:02:47.:02:49.

economy. Just imagine the Treasury comes out with his forecast that it

:02:50.:02:53.

is going to collapse growth and collapsed Treasury takings, people

:02:54.:03:02.

will be apoplectic. Until now, the economy has continued to grow

:03:03.:03:08.

strongly. Pretty well. They cannot say, we have noticed it slowing down

:03:09.:03:11.

and that will continue. They have to take a punt if they think it will

:03:12.:03:15.

slow down. It affects the Chancellor's figures, because the

:03:16.:03:18.

more they say it is slowing down, and I have seen that it will go from

:03:19.:03:25.

2% down to 1.4%, the more the Chancellor's deficit rises even

:03:26.:03:28.

without any more tax cuts and spending. Absolutely. I think Tom is

:03:29.:03:33.

right. What we will see this week is a continuation of the debate we have

:03:34.:03:38.

been having all along. If the Office for Budget Responsibility has

:03:39.:03:41.

negative and gloomy predictions there will be howls of agony, and

:03:42.:03:50.

rightly howls of frustration from Brexiteers who will say that all the

:03:51.:03:53.

dire predictions from before the referendum have not come to pass and

:03:54.:03:57.

now you are talking things down in a way that becomes a self-fulfilling

:03:58.:04:04.

prophecy. The money for roads, you were dismissive about it, but every

:04:05.:04:11.

little helps. I don't dismiss it, I say it doesn't amount to a fiscal

:04:12.:04:15.

stimulus in macro economic terms. I'm sure if you are on that road, it

:04:16.:04:24.

will be useful. They are going to build a super highway between Oxford

:04:25.:04:31.

and Cambridge. I would like to see them go out to Japan and learn how

:04:32.:04:38.

to fill a hole in two days. I would suggest the road from Oxford to

:04:39.:04:42.

Cambridge is not for the just managing classes, even though it

:04:43.:04:45.

goes through Milton Keynes, and that simply freezing due freezing fuel

:04:46.:04:57.

duty isn't going to hack it, either. These just about managing people are

:04:58.:05:02.

potentially quite a big band. With income tax rises, it means anything

:05:03.:05:05.

you do to help them is incredibly expensive. The universal credit

:05:06.:05:08.

freeze is an interesting example of that. Philip Hammond sounded

:05:09.:05:14.

ambivalent about it after pre-briefings that it might not the

:05:15.:05:22.

cuts might not go ahead. There are people who are in work but because

:05:23.:05:26.

they are low paid don't have the number of hours, they require

:05:27.:05:32.

welfare benefits to top up their pay, and these welfare benefits as

:05:33.:05:37.

it stands, are frozen until 202 , and yet inflation is now starting to

:05:38.:05:41.

rise. That's a problem for the just managing people. Correct. It is

:05:42.:05:47.

worse than that, because we are talking about April 2017 when tax

:05:48.:05:55.

credits become universal credits, so the squeeze will be greater. We will

:05:56.:06:01.

get a small highway between a couple of university towns, but if he has

:06:02.:06:05.

any money left to spend at all, it will be on some pretty seismic

:06:06.:06:12.

jazzman for the just about managing people. I am so glad we're not

:06:13.:06:18.

calling them Jams on this programme, because it is a patronising tone.

:06:19.:06:24.

What the Chancellor and Shadow Chancellor did not confront is that

:06:25.:06:33.

Mr Trump's election is a watershed in terms of being able to borrow

:06:34.:06:36.

cheaply. The Federal Reserve is about to start raising rates. The

:06:37.:06:40.

days of cheap borrowing for governments could be coming to an

:06:41.:06:45.

end. You can feel a bit sorry for labour here because after having had

:06:46.:06:49.

six years of being told that we need a surplus and these things are

:06:50.:06:52.

important, we can't deny the deficit, we have switched now and

:06:53.:06:56.

the first thing that Philip Hammond did was to scrap George Osborne s

:06:57.:07:03.

borrowing targets. He has given himself more wriggle room than

:07:04.:07:06.

George Osborne had. He has and it will cost them more. Debt servicing

:07:07.:07:14.

will now rise as a cost. Where is the next political earthquake going

:07:15.:07:15.

to happen? It could be Italy, or the French

:07:16.:07:22.

elections coming up next spring Now, who will face the Front

:07:23.:07:28.

National's Marine Le Pen in next year's French Presidential

:07:29.:07:31.

elections? Well, France's centre-right

:07:32.:07:32.

part, Les Republicans, are selecting their candidate

:07:33.:07:34.

in the first round of Well, France's centre-right

:07:35.:07:36.

part, Les Republicans, are selecting their candidate

:07:37.:07:38.

in the first round of Let's speak to our correspondent

:07:39.:07:42.

in Paris, Hugh Schofield. Welcome to the programme. Three main

:07:43.:07:55.

candidates, the former -- two former prime ministers and Nicolas Sarkozy,

:07:56.:08:00.

the former president. It is not clear who the front runner is.

:08:01.:08:05.

Robbins it is quite an exciting race, because four weeks it did look

:08:06.:08:15.

as if it was going to be Juppe. It is a two round race. Two go through

:08:16.:08:23.

and the idea is that they rally all the support together. It looked like

:08:24.:08:27.

the first round would be dominated by Juppe and Nicolas Sarkozy, and

:08:28.:08:31.

there was a clear binary combination there, because Sarkozy was looking

:08:32.:08:39.

for squeamish far right voters. In other words, veering clearly to the

:08:40.:08:42.

right and far right on immigration and identity issues. And Juppe is

:08:43.:08:48.

the opposite, saying we had to appeal to the centre. That was what

:08:49.:08:54.

it looked like. But the third candidate has made this really quite

:08:55.:08:58.

staggering surge in the last few days. There was a debate on Thursday

:08:59.:09:03.

and he was deemed to have won it on television. He is coming up

:09:04.:09:08.

strongly, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him go through

:09:09.:09:11.

which would be interesting from a British perspective, because if the

:09:12.:09:17.

becomes president, he will be the first president with a British wife.

:09:18.:09:21.

His wife Penelope is Welsh. We will have to leave it there. I

:09:22.:09:28.

would suggest that the reason it is fascinating is that whoever wins

:09:29.:09:31.

this primary for the centre-right party is likely to be the next

:09:32.:09:36.

president, and who the next president is will be very important

:09:37.:09:40.

for Britain in these Brexit negotiations. Nothing will really

:09:41.:09:44.

happen until it is determined. Then after the German elections in

:09:45.:09:49.

October. I would add one more constituent part. The most important

:09:50.:09:54.

thing about the race is who can stop Marine Le Pen. Marine Le Pen will

:09:55.:10:01.

almost be one of the ones in the run-off. The Socialists don't expect

:10:02.:10:10.

much. Francois Hollande is done There is too much of a cliff to

:10:11.:10:17.

climb. Which one of these three centre-right candidates can stop

:10:18.:10:21.

Marine Le Pen? We have had Brexit and Trump, but we could also have

:10:22.:10:26.

Marine Le Pen. If it is Sarkozy it is the battle of the right. In some

:10:27.:10:34.

areas, he has moved to the right of marine Le Pen. I suppose he feels he

:10:35.:10:41.

has do in order to take the wind out of our sails. You wonder if she

:10:42.:10:44.

could succeed later on if she does not this time. Talking to French

:10:45.:10:48.

analysts last night, there was suggesting that she could not do it

:10:49.:10:52.

this time but could win the next time. All the events in France over

:10:53.:10:56.

the last year seemed to provide the most propitious circumstances for

:10:57.:11:00.

her to do well, and particularly if you throw in Trump and Brexit.

:11:01.:11:06.

Suppose it is Mr Sarkozy, and he goes through and wins the Republican

:11:07.:11:10.

nomination, and he and Marine Le Pen go through to the second round, that

:11:11.:11:18.

would mean, think about it, is that a lot of French socialist voters and

:11:19.:11:22.

those on the father left would have to grit their teeth and vote for

:11:23.:11:29.

Nicolas Sarkozy. They might not do it. We might see what we saw in

:11:30.:11:34.

America, where lots of potential Clinton voters did not turn out You

:11:35.:11:45.

got politicians like Melanchon on the far left saying there are

:11:46.:11:49.

foreign workers taking bread out of French workers' mounts. We sometimes

:11:50.:11:56.

forget, because we tend to emphasise the National of the National front,

:11:57.:12:02.

but actually, there are economic policy is quite Bennite. Sarkozy is

:12:03.:12:13.

the Hillary Clinton of the French elections. He is Mr establishment.

:12:14.:12:25.

Juppe and the other third candidate are the same. You have to

:12:26.:12:30.

re-establish candidates running against an antiestablishment

:12:31.:12:32.

candidate. There are populist economic policies from the National

:12:33.:12:37.

front. The other three want to raise the retirement age and cut back on

:12:38.:12:40.

the 35 hour week, which are not classic electoral appeals. Mr Juppe

:12:41.:12:49.

used to be the Mayor of Bordeaux. And we are the biggest importers of

:12:50.:12:52.

claret, so that could have an effect. In 2002, it was Jack Shear

:12:53.:13:01.

against John Marine Le Pen, and the socialist campaign slogan was, vote

:13:02.:13:08.

for the Crook, not the fascist. We will see what they come up with this

:13:09.:13:10.

time. The Daily Politics is back at noon

:13:11.:13:12.

tomorrow on BBC Two, where on Wednesday I will have full

:13:13.:13:17.

coverage of the Chancellor's Autumn But remember, if it's Sunday,

:13:18.:13:23.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:24.:13:32.

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