20/01/2013 Sunday Politics South

In the south, airports closed, trains rearranged and chaos on the

roads. Have we really learned anything about how to deal with

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2303 seconds

Anderson's will come. Were name is Peter Henley. What did you do in

the big blizzard with planes cancelled, buses re-routed and

traffic misery? Was the South any better prepared this time than in

previous years? We will talk about that in a moment. We will also hear

about government plans to change the way the probation service works

and Emma Vardy sees how far she can get bartering in Oxford.

Let's first meet the two politicians. The new parliamentary

candidate for Oxford self. Richard -- Richard Drax is the MP for

Dorset South. Through this snowy weather which will continue next

week, you used to be a teacher? What do you think about teachers

closing schools last Friday? A lot of parents having to look after

people. It is difficult for parents. As teachers we recognise that, but

it is right that schools can make the decisions for their own local

circumstances. As to what is best for the children and the staff.

There were places where it really was dangerous. Small village

schools were you should not have people driving, or simply not safe.

This wasn't just an excuse to go home early? The fact that it was

Friday had nothing to do with it. Some people had exams. You are not

a big fan of health and safety are you Richard? No, but common sense I

am a good fan of. I suspect most teachers make a good decision. On

Friday I was at a school in Weymouth that remained open. Good

on them. All of the children were there and having a lovely day.

you think we were better prepared? All the evidence shows that we are

better prepared across the country. There is no doubt. I agree with

that. Oxfordshire in particular has been much more prepared than in

2011. More schools will have stayed open by the time the snow has

completely passed. Can I pay tribute to those who have been out

there all night working hard to keep roads and everything else

clear. They deserve our thanks. Let's hope that Dunkirk spirit

keeps going. Earlier this month, Chris Grayling

announced his plans for a shake-up of the probation service. He is

suggesting high risk cases will continue to be supervised and the

public sector, but charities and private firms could take over

probation work on a payment by results bases.

We have one straightforward goal, to make sure we reduce the level of

reoffending. We have a situation at the moment where almost half the

people who go to prison reoffend. I want to make sure we break the

cycle that goes round the system of people going to prison coming out,

going back and on and on. If is outsourcing the answer? It is not

simply out sourcing. It is capturing the best of the private

and voluntary sectors. The private sector is good at preventing risk

and the voluntary sector has good skills that mentoring. This is

about getting the best of all of those, working together to bring

down rates of reoffending. probation officers' union has been

critical of those plans. With me is Keith Bennett he confronted the

minister on Thursday. He put your points to him. Also joined by Clare

Solano from women's we stumble also do work with ex-offenders. You are

a charity? We are not for profit enterprise. Tell me what it is that

you do that you think makes a difference? We work closely with

probation and have done for the last four years. We provide

interventions to support women, because it is gender focus support

that we provide. We provide training and coaching, 1-1 support

and hand-held support out in the community. Does it make a

difference that it is gender- specific? Women working with women?

Absolutely. We have identified that the meets women go through are

different to men. The vast majority of the women we work with have a

history of domestic violence or substance misuse. As such, we need

to give them specific support. that is one clever idea you have

come up with. How about payment by results? I you keen on that Queen -

-? We already work on that sort of model. We are working with

probation and one of the prime contract as with regard to that so

we are used to that model. hasn't worked so well with the work

programme, has it? I think what is important is to look at the work

programme and look at the lessons learnt from that. Moving forward,

if there is a PV our model, it then there needs to be something

substantial in place to ensure that smaller organisations in the third

sector are not put under unnecessary financial constraint.

Keith Bennett, misguided, you say, but risky? It is risky. I think

probation from its inception has managed risks in a professional

manner. We assess risk and we manage people who commit these

crimes to make sure that level of risk is reduced and we aim to

reduce reoffending. What is wrong with what Clare is doing? There is

nothing wrong. We are delighted in Hampshire to be working, and

throughout the country, it to be working with other agencies to get

the work done and make sure that society is safe. Our concern is

that there is little evidence behind proposals to back up the

suggestion that we need to break up an organisation which has won a

Gold Award for excellence in 2011. It is recognised by this government

and previous governments. What we do is excellent, professional, we

assess risk and manage risk in the most difficult of circumstances.

is not necessarily working, is it? That is the problem with the way

this has been presented. Grayling are conflated the argument. He said,

quite rightly in that the small amount of evidence provided the,

that a large amount of people reoffending of renal -- released

after short sentences. Less than 12 months sentences. They specifically

are not supervised by anybody. My argument would be definitely in the

Times of austerity, where we have to make cuts, we are contributing 2

billion towards the coffers, but if you invest in probation now, we

know we have the best reoffending rate so invest in probation, give

those that would have been put on a short-term sentenced to probation,

we can supervise them and act as a cheaper rate than prisons or

anybody else. You take payment by results? Yes, because if we don't

do the job we are doing then clearly we come under scrutiny and

changes have to be made. Is there a danger of the accountability being

lost because nobody is sure whether it is by the probation service or

voluntary organisations? I think the proposal is clear. It says

high-risk offenders stay in probation. But that is a small

minority. 50,000 out of 300,000. is important to remember that what

probation do is a key service. The way they do what they do is

fantastic, but the consultation paper has suggested there needs to

be a system in place to ensure that risk is managed. We have worked

within the community for a number of years with offenders. We

understand the nature of risk and how that has to be managed and

there has to be open communication. If the government is going to go

forward it is about ensuring channels are clear up with

providers and ensuring that we work collaboratively with probation

Trust. Let's ask least two over here how they think it is going.

Chris Grayling's idea. Obviously a huge problem. But we have seen at

the Olympics big private companies giving problems. It is an

experiment, isn't it. It is not. Well in so that it has not been

tried before. We have to tackle reoffending and I take the. That

short-term prisoners are Beagrie offenders. But reoffending is still

far too high so it has to be a team effort. It is taking away the

responsibility. No, it is a team effort bringing in all sectors to

tackle the problem. There has been an Airborne Initiative set up in

Dartmoor. It is working. It is absolutely extraordinary. I think

we have to be careful because there will always be examples of where it

works in isolated areas. What worries me is that it is being

rolled out across the country. It is an experiment, I am a scientist,

you take a sample and see if it works across a large enough area

that it matters statistically, but you should not do something this

radical without decent evidence in place that it will work. I think

the word that organisation does, Clare, is fantastic. It is locally-

based and it does work. But what worries me is your level of

providers, the small ones based in the community, because this is a

complex issue and will take a whole community to solve it, are going to

be frozen out because they cannot read bits and everything that goes

with that. In the end, what we will seek his massive organisations

taking this on and I am worried and sceptical that it is going to work

and I am worried that we will end up spending more money giving it to

be private sector enterprises and it might not work. Richard Drax? De

you share those concerns from the Conservative point of view? Yes. I

am naturally cautious on this. It is a risky step we are taking, but

the situation is such an has gone on for so long that I think we

should try and do something different because the reoffending

is unacceptable. The cost is unacceptable. If we can somehow,

with all the resources we have got and there are many excellent

organisations, it teamed up with the many excellent resources and

Cup this. Then we will achieve the end. This is the concern we have.

We work it successfully with women's wisdom in Southampton.

Grayling mentioned the Peterborough example. The problem with that is

we are not due to get the results from bat until 2014. It is a

massive risk and we are putting the public at risk by fragmenting the

probation service. As far as we have said, job deal

has been rolled out across Hampshire, Surrey, Sussex and Kent.

Effectively smaller organisations have already been working with

those probation trust in those areas. So if we want to look to see

whether it can work, we know it can work. We get fantastic results

because we are looking at offending path ways. Supporting someone threw

the whole journey. Through the gates, supporting housing needs,

substance misuse needs but working in collaboration with trusts.

Experiment or not, let us hope it works.

Difficult times can lead to people and businesses finding innovative

ways around their financial problems. Increase the economic

crisis has prompted communities to begin bartering. That is something

that is making a come -- making a comeback in this country. Allowing

companies to swap goods and services. This traditional currency

overrated? We send our reporter to find out.

The challenge of today is to do away with money and credit cards,

but by the end of it to have gathered a few items into this

basket. I am starting off with nothing. All I have to give his

myself and my time. I have come to a supermarket in Oxford that is a

little bit different and will let me volunteer in exchange for a few

goods to kick-start our day exploring the old tradition of

bartering. This supermarket already runs a

scheme where people swap their time in exchange for money or food. I am

taking things a step further and have struck a deal to work in

return for some goods. If I can get tutor Paul all of the drinks

forward. What do you think about people exchanging goods instead of

many? I think it is great. If you get a Porsche we can split the

money! I think I am getting them hang of this. Time to get paid.

Instead of an hourly rate, I have learnt this. Now we have something

to barter with it is off to find other people willing to negotiate.

I know this isn't the normal way you would do business, but just for

today will that work for you? With some cooking sauces? Drove a source

in and we will call it a deal. Good doing business with you. Filling up

nicely. I will give you the hooter. It looks good to me. Thank you very

much. There are people who do this on a

bigger scale. Schemes have been set up to help businesses bartered

goods and services. Barter card says it now handles 6000 bartering

transactions per month. We allow people to swap their goods

and services for things that they need within their business or,

perhaps, in their normal lives. Businesses can conserve their cash

and make exchanges was in the bartered card system building up a

form of credit. What are the advantages? It allows

you to do things that maybe in this day and age you can't do in the

cash economy. One of the first things that goes is training or

advertising. If you can use your goods and services to pay for those

things then you can make progress when people in the cash economy

might be struggling. The idea of creating alternative forms of

credit is something some towns and cities are doing like the Midhurst

Town. They locals only currency created to stimulate the town's

economy. Back in Oxford I found a restaurant

where the owner will take customers crockery in exchange for sausages.

I realise it is a tricky market. Going out for a meal is a luxury so

I have said we need fantastic teapots in the restaurant and I

will swap them for sausages. There are you ready to negotiate? I think

we are. This chap could be tricky to use in the restaurant. Five

sausages, five cupcakes. That is a deal. Good work.

Well, we will not doing too badly, but I think it is time to try and

trade this lot up for something a bit bigger.

That looks ideal. Could you let it go in return for some great produce

to take home with you? It's a bit of fun, yes, go on I will go for it.

Do we have a deal? Yes, OK. Thank you.

While we are unlikely to see bartering replacing financial

transactions, in tough economic times it has proved a viable way of

businesses trading with one another to gain advantages and for me, I

have ended up with this baby. Not a bad day's work.

A bicycle is a good thing to have been Oxford. It is going to a good

cause in the end. Labour, what if everybody did this? Well, they are

not going to, are they? It started of thousands of years ago and we

then invented money to get away from doing this. It is time

consuming. What I really liked about that was that you saw she was

having conversations with people. It was bringing the community

together. At the same time, these other schemes stimulate the local

economy and there is an environmental side to this. My

party has said for a very long time that we like to push re-using and

not just recycling. This is more of that idea. I don't think it will

replace many though, do you? Probably not because it is a big

effort. But for business is struggling, if this is a way of

getting rid of extra tables in a restaurant or a few extra haircuts,

or is it like a builder taking cash? Is it a bit of a Dodge?

a little bit like Del Boy in one respect. How will you monitor what

is going on because I believe tax has to be paid? The company barter

card are doing the VAT so it is difficult to assess the value of

everything received. I cannot see this replacing the traditional

method of buying things, but it is great. When tough times hit,

bartering becomes much more relevant. Companies have to be a

lot more on their toes, haven't they? You must be saying that in

Dorset South? Absolutely. People are becoming very enterprising and

it is a wonderful thing about the human spirit. That said, when it

comes to tax we have to be careful. You don't want to stop the scheme

that I think is good for the community. HMRC has bigger fish to

prior -- bigger fish to fry. different is it is Starbucks?

different! Extraordinarily different. It is a little bit

different. One way of bartering, you could do today is in the House

of Commons and I could do one day here. I can think of a few changes

I would suggest. A were regular round-up of the week

Crowd saucing is the latest way to fund business ideas like this

waterproof map. David over 10 fund his backers on the internet. We can

be really proud of this invention. A Reading chocolate company has

done the same after being rejected by the banks.

Also left disappointed, a marine conservation charities criticised

government protection zones which included none in the Solent or Isle

of Wight. The slow boat from China - shipping

companies told captains to take up to a week longer to save fuel. If

that brings down supermarket prices, John Denham would gee-up. The Tesco

big price drop campaign, for every two items that dropped in price,

three went up. The Private Member's Bill he

introduced would force supermarkets to release price data so comparison

websites can tell us if two for one of us are really any good.

Buy one get one free. And you get Richard who used to be a reporter

but isn't any more. I am not free anymore either. Certainly not. In

this economy where people really are struggling, is the answer going

to be all about finding new ways of doing things? Crowd sourcing in

order to get your business back? I think we can't blame the

recession for everything. During a recession we find that people can

bring innovation to what they do. I think there are issues with some

older style businesses who have yet to come up to speed with a modern

world. Is that about resource in? I think there are things the

government can do. Making sure they are lending to small businesses.

Vince Cable has been pushing back for a long time. Also ensuring

there are schemes allowing people to catch up. Also, broadband access.

There are parts of this area who have big issues of broadband access.

We can't expect small business to use the internet without that.

Quickly, we need trim -- traditional communities and

traditional shops it be kept going? Of course we do. People have to

think way out of their boxes. Some local libraries are now run by

local people. This would have been unheard of 10 years ago. We are now

having to rethink things. Both of you, thank you for coming

in through the snow. Our pleasure. Thank you to both of my guests.