19/05/2013 Sunday Politics South


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the weight is recorded as fundamentally flawed. -- in the


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Crime levels about their lowest level for 30 years, but can you


really believe the statistics? Violence is down by 6%, and robbery


13%. But our officers under pressure to keep crime levels low? The Police


Federation certainly thinks so and some experts believe the way we


measure crime is fundamentally flawed.


Let's meet the politicians who will be with me. Lord Jim Knight from


Dorset is Ely Borough peer, Dr Phillip Lee is the Conservative MP


for Racal. Seven men convicted of this week. The big story was the


grooming and sexually exploiting of girls in Oxford. Some as young as 11


and from troubled background. Lisa and social services came into


contact with these offenders time and time again. Why do you think


nothing was done? I think there has been a culture in the police and


social services not to believe these vulnerable young women when they


come forward. We have seen it in other parts of the country. The


victims who have given evidence in that trial should be applauded for


their bravery in doing so. Also, the police officers carried out the


operation have done good job in the end. But there has been a culture in


the police of not taking his thing seriously, and that has to change.


Phillip Lee, the police say race was not a factor in this, but these were


five men convicted from an Asian background. All the girls were


white. What do you think? I do not think it has anything to do with


Islam. Islam teaches people to treat women appropriately. The idea it is


anything to do that, think, is wrong. To say that it is a Pakistani


community problem would be too simplistic. Clearly, there are


problems, and where you have such problems in one community, I'm sure


members of the committee are reflecting on that. It would not be


appropriate that it has anything to do with race or religion. People of


Pakistani origin would be as appalled by this as anyone else.


There may be some cultures that we would all be appalled by. It seems


to be more widespread than people thought. Jim, when this was going


on, you were the schools Minister, AGP, isn't it about agencies not


having talked to each other's -- talk to each other properly? We need


to look at ourselves. Increasingly, we turn to, it's the system, it's


the social care system. We have had so many examples of a breakdown in


systems. When we going to realise that individually, as professional


people, we all have a responsibility to say when something is wrong? In


Staffordshire, there was another example. From my time in the


department, when that was going on, it inspired others to start a way of


sharing data for people and professionals who work with children


so that some of these things could be spotted earlier. Unfortunately,


it was expensive and has been cancelled. I wonder whether or not


does was a good idea. There are other people who are now in charge


and making those decisions. But the people in charge seem to have


learned lessons. Do you think it is right they are allowed to develop


the answers here in oxygen? There needs to be a transparent debate


about that. Some people are worried that people aren't taking


responsibility. I don't want to see the Chief Constable head of the


council should resign, because it is a wider problem. People should start


taking responsibility. No one is talking about the periods of the


girls. What about parental report -- parental responsibility? I think


they tried very hard. I know that the Chief Constable has apologise,


and that is to be respected, but when you look at this, you think,


what about the responsibilities of families in all of this? I am not


convinced that people wouldn't have known. Members of the family...


about the man who was driving around Oxford trying to find his doctor? --


trying to find his daughter? I think as a society, we need to start the


King at ourselves a bit and stop relying on Government. We need to


start relying on committees and families.


On a hospital ward, how many patients can one nurse look after


safely? It is a question being asked in the NHS were senior nurses say


that was regularly have one registered nurse caring for each or


more patients. They believe that is unsafe. According to Southampton


University research, is that patients to NASA visual increases,


so does more deaths. Joining us is Jane Ball, Debbie the director of


the National Nursing Research Unit. What is this research showing?


campaign is all about drawing attention to staffing levels,


particularly registered nurse staffing levels, and highlighting


that there becomes a level at which staffing can fault too low and


patients lives are at risk. We are drawing from a range of different


research. There has been research over the last ten years, but the


most recent study that Southampton University undertook looked at but


one different trusts. We surveyed nurses in those trusts and related


their staffing levels to our data we had an mortality rate. What we found


was that you get to a certain point where patients are at greater risk


of dying in hospital. It's a tipping point, is it? Are you sure that


statistics and a simple relationship between staffing and mortality tells


the whole story? Isn't there a lot more about the quality of training?


I think both are true. There is a lot more to good quality care with


safety and compassion, rather than just the right number of nurses. But


if you don't have enough nurses, you will put lives at risk. So, it is a


continuum and there are other factors, but when you get to eight


patients or more per registered nurse, you're putting lives at risk.


To achieve that target, another target for the Health Service,


wouldn't you have to take away money from other parts of the National


Health Service? Possibly causing trouble, but Roberts Francis was


causing trouble when he was investigating what was going on in


Staffordshire. If we believe in patient matters, we have to look at


what makes a difference. We are seeing clear evidence that must


staffing levels, registered nurse staffing levels, make a difference.


We can't ignore that evidence. These are difficult times in terms of


costs, but we can't ignore that relationship. Otherwise, -- the


pasty decision-making back to nurses. What we find is that nurses


with lower levels of staff say they are things they don't do on their


shift. Nine out of ten nurses say that there were activities relation


-- relating to not seize -- relating to patients that they had not done.


That won't solve the problem, because there are all sorts of other


factors. One of the things that came out of the CQC report was that there


was a lot of variation in hospitals, but were somewhat have good staffing


levels and aren't delivering good quality of care. We need to


understand what is going on with that. They also said that delivering


a high quality of care is almost impossible if you don't have enough


nursing staff. The cos there simply isn't enough expertise available to


patients to get things done, so nurses have to effectively ration


care, will they have to choose whether or not to answer a buzzer or


carry on giving medications on time. We're putting Fisher nurses to work


out how to prioritise and Russian. -- prioritise. We need more of


everything, because that is where healthcare is going. We are raging.


-- we are getting older. If you have an ageing society, you're more


likely to have people who have dementia. If you have one person


with dementia on a ward, this can cause no end of problems to nursing


staff. It is not just about the nature of the job, it is the nature


of the cases, because we are raging. There is also a case about


buildings. If you have a traditional ward with it is. , it is much more


difficult to staff. It is multifactorial. The challenge we


have as a society is that we can spend twice as much as we do on


health care and still have problems. Given way have got the


system we have got, Abbey go to have to spend charge people for it? Some


radical reorganisation? The NHS is going through yet another radical


reorganisation at the moment. make sure that patients get the


money spent on them that we need. have 5000 fewer masses than we did


in 2010 and it is projected to fall over the next few years. The Care


Quality Commission says that one in ten hospitals does not have enough


staff. It is a timely reminder of staff levels. Clearly, just to say


it is all about staff is simplistic, and there is a finite


amount of resources. We have to look at whether we can do more ourselves


as it -- citizens to prevent ourselves getting chronic diseases


and conditions. But, in the end, I do think we need to look carefully


at staffing levels and hold David Cameron to his promise about the


National Health Service. A new target, as that which you would like


to see? I wouldn't describe it as a target. The 128 ratio isn't a


fundamental style -- target that should be breached. Nurses should


report to the trust and hospital and asked for action to be taken. That


standard can be used. Because we don't have definite guidelines,


there isn't measures to help people assess whether staffing is OK or


not. For years, we have had nurses saying they don't have enough staff,


and others saying, well, we're always hearing that. Now we have a


number that we can help to gauge if it is at an unsafe level. We would


call for patients, visitors to ask, how many staff are on today? How


many beaches -- how many registered nurses? Thank you very much


forgotten to us. The latest figures show crime is at


its lowest level for more than 30 years. In Hampshire, it is down by


15%, and in Thames Valley, nearly 11%. That is according to the


official crime survey. But how trustworthy others figures and the


way they are measured? -- how trustworthy RB figures?


I don't feel safe. I can't go out until Constable. -- go out and feel


comfortable. We live in Swanage, and the electricity and main lights have


been switched off. I have heard people saying crime is going up


because of that. I don't like it at night on my own. We wouldn't go out


in the evening on our own things like that. Nowhere near the save as


a few years ago. So, some people may think crime is on the increase.


According to figures, it is actually going down. So which is it? When you


go to a holiday parks such as the ones we find in the South coast and


the number of caravans have been broken into, years ago, when I first


started as a police officer, I would be recording ten different kinds for


that. At the moment, we record one. There needs to be a debate and


examination of exactly what is going on with crime figures, because we


think people are just not reporting it. At their annual conference in


Bournemouth last week, the Police Federation said crime figures were


being kept artificially low. The way in which police and interpreting the


rules sent from the Home Office, given that they had been under


pressure to show year-on-year falls and crying -- on crime, if crime


levels went up, there was a failure. In Dorset, I am confident in


relation to the accuracy of crime figures. We have plenty of people


who check that we are doing it accurately according to national


standards. Despite an apparent fall in violent offences of nearly 15%,


one Dorset charity working with victims of domestic violence says


the reality is different. Sometimes statistics are behind what is


happening on the ground. That is now one pos-mac fault, it is just the


recording statistics and classification of watch report. We


see an increasing need for people with housing over the few years --


Oval last few years, and over the last 12 months. We have seen a big


increase. There are two ways that crime levels are measured. One, the


number of crimes reported to the police, and another based on the


survey of households and their experience of crime. That is showing


that crime is falling, and I think we should congratulate the officers


on the streets who have been doing their part in making sure those


figures go down. But there are some who say they crime survey figures


will always be misleading. Property crime has changed in its nature


since the early 1990s. There are new forms of property crime being


perpetrated on an increasing scale. The sorts of fraud and scams that go


on over the internet. Those are not reported to the police. It doesn't


include shoplifting. Lots and lots of crime which are very prevalent


but not captured in the survey. Somehow, it has become a sacred cow,


which is not open to question. The coverage of what is really going on


with crime is extremely livid -- extremely limited and always has


been. That has become more so as forms of property crime has changed.


Here in the studio is the Hampshire Police and Crime Commissioner. Do


you trust these figures customer -- these figures customer it is


important that the public trustees figures and I have a responsibility


to prevent reoffending. But how can the public or do you trust the


figures when they did not include things like the problems with


shoplifting, ten crimes being counted as one, as the place


federation pointed? Domestic violence seemed to continue at the


same level, and yet, the figures say you're doing marvellous. When we


give the public don't have confidence in crime recording, that


is of great concern to me. What we're looking at in Hampshire,


particularly around business crime, I have spoken to the Federation of


Small Businesses. Business crime should be taken more seriously in


terms of recording in Hampshire. some people don't even reported to


the place when the destroyed and maybe just pay the money back to


someone. That shouldn't carry on, surely? People should report crime


to the police and we would ask that people do report crimes. What we


have seen in this round of statistics is a clear route duction


of crime in a number of years, not just the last 12 months. That's


where you can do something, isn't it, because people should be getting


crime numbers from the police and the place should be interested. When


someone goes to the man says, I'm suspicious about this, a lot of the


time, the impression is that the police aren't interested. I think


one of the things that will come out of this is that that interest will


be found to be in within -- will be found to be within the police


constabulary. And the policing plan I have an Isle of Wight in the next


five years, there are targets and elements that the police will need


to look at. But they will meet the targets because they will find a way


of gaining these figures. It is what is happening in education and Health


Service. There is no advantage in the police constabulary fiddling the


figures, and I am the Chief Constable in Hampshire and Isle of


Wight, and I'm keen to make sure that will not happen. Phillip Lee,


do you think this chasing after targets and statistics is a good


thing? It'll all be seen to the public that the target has been


achieved, and they put -- and yet, the perception as it is not. I am


not a great fan of targets. I blame the previous Government for that.


The public want to perceive that things are being chest and


perceived. -- are being achieved. You would expect at a time of


economic distress for crime to go up significantly. I'm not suggesting it


is a perfect survey. It is internationally recognised, I might


add. It is respected. But, of course there is more work to do. My


personal position is that targets in politics has got us into that God is


in the past. Is getting us into over crime? The reduction of crime is to


be welcomed. Is it? Can we believe it? There are new crowns emerging


because of technology. Would you have said that six years ago?


sitting in Cabinet and Alan Johnson telling us that crime figures had


reduced. At that like exam inflation. Every year, they do


better. There are important trends to keep an eye out for. There is


evidence through Freedom of information requests. Community


resolution requests have gone up in four years for violent crimes as


well. That is the thousand violent crimes are not being recorded.


People aren't getting a criminal record for them. Thank you very


much. Now for our regular round-up of the


political week in the South in 60 seconds. This week, we're out on the


beat. If we all walked an extra ten


minutes a day, it would save the National Health Service millions. In


Reading, they are saving money for local schools and saving lives,


counting each step of 20 -- 33,000 people. That would save six lives


every year. Chris Huhne what from prison after serving two months for


lying about driving too fast. His dad drove him home. The Thames


Valley -- the Thames Valley crankiness and finally got itself a


chauffeur and bad publicity over expensive. The police are trying to


recruit new Polish speaking PCSO's. South Central ambulance say the mean


annual -- say their engines will be told of when training. In Hampshire,


to police patrol cars were used to escort a mobility scooter. A


passerby found the convoy. You've got to love that someone stuck there


and Eddie Carter recalled that, haven't you? Technology, it is


great, but could we do it a bit more walking question might -- a bit more


walking? My wife would say I could do with a rest from my technology.


The sweet and drink, don't tweet and walk the dog. And not convinced


technologies making us healthier. I think we're becoming obsessed with


immediacy and not thinking and reflecting enough upon life. I am


not a huge fan of technology, in some ways. Clearly there are bits of


it that are great, not least of which someone filming something


rather daft on the road. But we are all connected everywhere. We have


statistics. We have solar panels on some of those are nuances. It is


saving the planet, isn't it? That is a good thing. Let's not overdo it


with how much solar panels save the planet, but yes, it is technology


that is making a positive impact, and that is to be celebrated.


only space committee, Alger got a Mac -- you are only space


committee, Alger? I am. I have any lot of work on technology, and and


have seen the positive effects it can have on learning, I can see the


way it has disrupted some things. Economically, there are bad things,


but the away out weighed by the good things.


Andrew Neil and Peter Henley are joined by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Danny Alexander and discuss Conservative UKIP electoral pacts with Conservative MPs Jacob Rees-Mogg and Jackie Doyle-Price. As well as all of the weekend's other political news, and debate with the weekly panel of journalists.

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