22/09/2013 Sunday Politics South

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband and the

rest of the Labour clan are in Brighton for their party conference

this weekend. He's promised policies galore. But as a Sunday Politics

poll finds a third of his own councillors don't think he's doing a

good job, will that be enough to steady the Labour ship?

Back in Westminster, they're partying like it's 2006, as Damian

McBride's memoirs re-ignite the Blair-Brown wars. Alastair Campbell

will tell us why he is sickened by the former Brown spin doctor.

And speaking of political infighting, Conservative Party

Chairman Grant Shapps will give his response to the rampant Tory-bashing

at the Lib Dem Conference And with response to the rampant Tory-bashing

In the south, the conference season rolls on with UKIP looking to

capitalise on recent business. In London, Labour commands

over the two thirds of the ethnic minority vote but now stands accused

of institutional racism. Are they right? With me, the best and the

brightest political panel in the business. Isabel Hardman, Janan

be tweeting like demented Damians throughout the programme. First

today, scrapping the bedroom tax. Universal childcare for primary

school kids. More apprenticeships. Labour Conference only begins in

earnest today, but the policy and spending commitments are coming

according to the Labour leader's critics. He's been out and about

this morning and told Andrew Marr that he knew it was going to be

this morning and told Andrew Marr It is about a party that lost office

three years ago. We are trying to be a one term opposition. That is

tough. I believe it is a fight that we can win and I am up for that

fight. The stakes are so high for young people who want a job, for

people whose living standards are being squeezed. For people who think

that this is not good enough for Britain. So what do key Labour Party

activists - its councillors - think about the direction Mr Miliband

activists - its councillors - think taking their party? Adam Fleming is

in Brighton at the Party Conference with all the details of our latest

exclusive Sunday Politics survey. conference set. Let us unwrap them.

With the help of an opinion poll we surveyed 1350 Labour councillors

across England and Wales. We wanted to find out what they think as

Labour gathers for its conference. The Labour leader warmed up for

Labour gathers for its conference. week by taking to his soap box in

Brighton city centre. It is great week by taking to his soap box in

councillors said they did not think Ed Miliband was doing a good job as

leader. 30% said they thought the party would have a better chance if

someone else was in charge at the next election. You will see more of

Ed Miliband as we run-up to general election. He has been in the job for

three years! Now it is crunch time. The other Ed, Ed Balls, was disliked

by roughly one third of the party as well. Ed Balls is not a pop your

man. He says things and he speaks his mind. -- not a popular man.

diplomatic. Sadly Ed Balls did not seem to be that bothered about our

survey. Over at a conference centre When it comes to relations with

trade unions, the majority of Labour councillors thought things were

absolutely fine. Just 9% thought things with the unions were a little

bit too close. Tricky because Ed Miliband want to loosen the link.

The shadow environment secretary arrived in Brighton ride bicycle

from London to raise money for councillors what they would do if

the next election results in a hung parliament, just over half said

the next election results in a hung would tell the lid Dems to get on

their bikes. We would never say would tell the lid Dems to get on

to going into coalition. It gives us the chance to be in government and

prepare some of the damage of the last three years. So are you going

to start being nice about the Lib Dems? I always treat them with

courtesy. And the parties admitted that perhaps they had opened the

door to too many immigrants. It that perhaps they had opened the

our survey Labour councillors of warming the felt that immigration

We're now joined by the Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Rachel

Reeves. Good morning. Let us start with Ed Miliband. Is it true that

the team insisted that he be called the leader? I just call him Ed and I

think the rest of the Shadow Cabinet do. Do you welcome working for a

leader that says he is winning back socialism? We are a democratic

important thing is that we have socialism? We are a democratic

policies that will improve people 's lives and tackle the cost of living

crisis facing so many families. Policies like expanding childcare,

offering more apprenticeships, all policies that I think the country

are calling out for after three years of a flat-lining economy and

seeing prices rise faster than wages for 38 out of the 39 months but

Minister. I think that is the most important thing. So it is OK now to

risk their to the Labour Party again as the Socialist party? The clue is

in the name, we stand up for working people. You are socialist party

according to the leader. We have always been the Labour Party, that

is our name and we stand up for working people, not the privileged

few like this government with their tax cuts for millionaires. Those are

privileged few. The Labour Party is about helping everyone in Britain,

all families. Interesting that your run don't use the word socialist. In

our survey one third of Labour councillors said Ed Miliband was not

doing a good job as leader. If he councillors, who can he convince?

Well you could say that two thirds of councillors think that he is

Well you could say that two thirds right leader. But these are Labour

councillors. The overall majority of Labour councillors think that he is

doing a good job. What matters is the results on election day. Two

thirds of councillors think that he is doing a good job. That us see

what they say at the end of this week. Because I think the policies

he is announcing will go down well week. Because I think the policies

with Labour Party people and will also resonate with the British

public. Policies like expanding apprenticeships, giving a break

public. Policies like expanding struggling. I think people will

public. Policies like expanding what kind of a leader that he is.

Well he has a mountain to climb among all voters. Let me ask the

question. Just 12% see him as a Prime Minister in waiting, just

question. Just 12% see him as a see him as a natural leader. Why? If

question. Just 12% see him as a you look at the overall opinion

polls, we are consistently ahead in those polls. It is hard being leader

demonstrate how you would be Prime Minister. By nature you are in

opposition. But he has taken on Rupert Murdoch and the press barons.

That is strong leadership, standing up to the vast majority. If you

That is strong leadership, standing at his reforms to our relationship

with the trade unions, strengthening ties with individual members. I

think that he is a strong leader making the right decisions. If that

is the case, why has the Labour making the right decisions. If that

gone from 14 points one year ago to at most four points now. What went

wrong? Well we are six or eight are six or eight points ahead in the

consistently ahead. It looks as are six or eight points ahead in the

we would get an overall majority if there was an election tomorrow.

we would get an overall majority if we have more work to do to convince

more people to vote for Labour. we have more work to do to convince

a one term Labour opposition. I this is a historic challenge, to be

a one term Labour opposition. I believe that Ed Miliband will be the

next Labour Prime Minister and will be an excellent Prime Minister. The

big policy announcement today is the guaranteed childcare for all primary

school children. How much will that government, they ring fenced money

after-school and breakfast clubs. We think that money should be ring

fenced again. How much will it cost? We are saying that schools

within their budgets should be able to provide that. At the moment they

can charge for children to come to provide that. At the moment they

their first clubs. But this is a additional money. As it was under

the last Labour government it will be about ring fencing money because

we think that this is a priority. This is something that the schools

should do. You cannot ring fenced money you do not have. You saying

schoolchild from eight o'clock in the morning until six o'clock at

night and it will not cost any more money? Well we did ring fence that

money in the last Labour government. That money is gone! It has not gone.

It is about priorities and we are saying that it should be a priority

where is the money being spent now that you would take it from? If

where is the money being spent now look at some of the things that

where is the money being spent now government is doing, building free

schools in areas where there are already enough. That is capital

spending. We are ring fencing that priorities. We had the ring fence

when we were in government. It would be reintroduced so that schools

when we were in government. It would to offer that wraparound care. Of

course schools can charge a small to offer that wraparound care. Of

fee for their breakfast clubs and after-school DVDs. But the important

thing is that provision is there for parents going out to work. Ed Balls

and Ed Miliband are at the heart of the Brown project. Damien Wright was

the hit man. Is it not inconceivable that they did not know what he was

the hit man. Is it not inconceivable up to. It is inconceivable that

the hit man. Is it not inconceivable did not -- Damian McBride. I am

asking about Damian McBride. What did not -- Damian McBride. I am

asking about Damian McBride. What I'm saying is that I was not there.

I was not there under the last Labour government. But I do know

that these things are not happening under the leadership of Ed Miliband.

that backstabbing going on. There is no plotting against Ed Balls going

on? I do not see that. And anyone who briefed against colleagues

should be sacked, I agree with that. Nick Clegg's conference speech made

it clear he was repaired to work with Ed Miliband in the event of a

hung parliament. Are you excited by that prospect or is it just boring?

That is very generous of Nick Clegg to say that. With his poll ratings

of 9%. I think it is up to the general public to decide who they

want to form a government. We are campaigning for an overall Labour

that just boring boring? I want campaigning for an overall Labour

serve in a Labour government is campaigning for an overall Labour

a coalition government. That is campaigning for an overall Labour

we are campaigning for. Thank you for joining us. Steve Richards,

we are campaigning for. Thank you has Ed Miliband got to do this

week? He has got to start to win the argument about the economy. I think

they will be quite clever on that in terms of saying that the recovery

has begun but it is not going to benefit many of the voters. Unlike

previous economic recoveries. That is a strong line and they need to

make that again and again. The recovery has barely started. The

make that again and again. The interesting thing, Isabel, they

make that again and again. The to make a living standards the issue

let's return to living standards which have been squeezed. The polls

show that twice as many people blame Labour for the living standards

show that twice as many people blame the Conservatives. It is a great

scene for them to mine, and it is the only one before they announce

big policies, but they have not gained the trust of voters on the

economy, so the Conservatives can say they are finishing the job of

fixing the recovery now and then cannot quite trust us with the

economy but we will talk about living standards. Ed Miliband's

economy but we will talk about elucidating policies and not just

incredibly vulnerable. The only thing worse than not having a policy

for an opposition leader is to have a policy. It gives the opposition

something to attack, the media something to scrutinise and it makes

you bold rubble and you can see something to scrutinise and it makes

coming through already before the conference has started. You have

childcare. Spigot can he provide wraparound childcare for free?

childcare. Spigot can he provide can he provide wraparound childcare

for free? I don't even know what it is. Opposition is emphatically an

art form, and the art form, and artform for them at the moment is to

announce policies without spending any money and it is very difficult

to do. You gave an illustration any money and it is very difficult

how difficult it is. They are under huge pressure, for the last year, to

announce policies and they announce one on childcare and you immediately

say, how do you paper it? And she immediately says, we will not spend

a penny on it, because they are terrified of spending anything.

a penny on it, because they are is where it an artform. The tax

suspension before and election is crazy, because they will find money

one way or another, but in another way, they cannot say we will spend

money on this. It is a real problem. way, they cannot say we will spend

How do you measure the state of way, they cannot say we will spend

coalition after the Liberal Democrat conference? The Liberal Democrats

were in a very strong position after their conference, Nick Clegg had

faced and activists on some issues, including fracking, which they

supported, which seem to be the including fracking, which they

important part of the conference. In terms of the coalition, the Tories

have had to sit and watch as Vince Cable, Nick Clegg and Coe have

basically criticised them and said they are evil and only the Lib Dems

can make sure the Government is they are evil and only the Lib Dems

and works properly. So in terms they are evil and only the Lib Dems

how the coalition works, you can expect to see some revenge at the

Tory conference. The Lib Dems, Nick Clegg's followers, they had their

revenge. Mister Clegg may have convinced his own activists to stay

behind him, but he has a bigger convincing the British people. There

is some interesting polling they have done privately that suggests

there is a market of about 25% of the electorate which is plausibly

open to them, and all they have the electorate which is plausibly

do is target policies remorselessly at that group, rather than the

broader public, in order to do well enough at the next election to hold

the balance of power. That is why policies that seem weird to us,

the balance of power. That is why free school meals regardless of

income, may perversely make sense to them. Because it appeals to their

Labour strategists think they can political world we are in, the

Labour strategists think they can win with 35%, the Lib Dems are going

to concentrate on 25. The Tories win with 35%, the Lib Dems are going

to concentrate on 25. The Tories have seized to be a national party

any more. We haven't been used to it for a long time. In the 80s, one

party dominated, the Tories. In for a long time. In the 80s, one

90s into the 21st century, the policy matter delayed the Labour

Party dominated. -- the Labour party dominated. We are now here but we

have other parties hoping that dominated. We are now here but we

will give them a small overall majority and it is the best they can

get. It is a very odd situation where the main two parties feel

get. It is a very odd situation can lose and the Lib Dems are openly

targeting only 25%. They have gotten rid of 75% already and it is a long

way from the policies of last couple of decades Nick Clegg talked about

all of the policies he had locked. There is a real opportunity for

all of the policies he had locked. Conservatives to say that he is

blocking all of the things that voters outside of our bays are

interested in, top immigration policy, human rights reform, that

sort of thing. David Cameron can say that in Manchester next week. One

thing was quite clear, it came out of this awayday, and and this is

this, that when you look at Mister Miller band's polls, the Tories

this, that when you look at Mister going to make this a presidential

Which is why I am curious why they When the strength of your party

Which is why I am curious why they against his opponents, why not have

him or her juxtaposed against them in 90 minutes three times a week.

past week has given us inklings When the Lib Dems gathered for their

Government is planning on fighting When the Lib Dems gathered for their

annual shindig in Glasgow, some ministers were non-too complimentary

about their blue blood fellows. ministers were non-too complimentary

bedfellows. Vince Cable led the ministers were non-too complimentary

Tories had reverted to type as a nasty party and describe their

politics as ugly, cynical, callous and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not

restrict himself to policies that and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not

the Lib Dems had champion, such and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not

increasing the amount you can earn before paying tax. The Deputy Prime

Minister proudly listed all of the things he had stopped the Tories

from doing. Speak of scrapping housing benefit the young people,

no. No to ditching the human rights act. No to weakening the protections

in the equalities act. So how much of a break have the yellow brigade

being on Conservative ambitions question mark in the two leaders

shake hands again after the 20 question mark in the two leaders

election, what policies were David Cameron insist on. -- 2015? No

matter how many times Nick Clegg And Grant Shapps joins me the Sunday

Grant Shapps, good morning. Nick self-styled. He boasted to his

conference that he had stopped the Tories from going ahead with 16

policies in government. Is this accurate? I don't know but what

policies in government. Is this can tell you, as your commentator

Isabel said, some of the policies that we wanted them if we were a

majority government sent out to that we wanted them if we were a

very popular things, like reforming the human rights act and some of the

problems that provides when it comes to sending people who have no right

to be in this country back. So there to be in this country back. So there

may be some things we could have inheritance tax cut? I don't know

the details, but I think it is negotiation and sometimes you can't

get everything you want, and we negotiation and sometimes you can't

done the best, given where the electoral maths left us. That is why

70 people in this country say they electoral maths left us. That is why

70 people in this country say they would rather see a single party

running the country -- why so many people. I have to say I agree. They

Give me a couple of major policies that you would introduce if you

Give me a couple of major policies had a majority in 2010 and were

Give me a couple of major policies held back by the Lib Dems. Speaking

the one I just mentioned would be Country, we have had 1,000 years of

than capable of putting in place developing the law and we are more

than capable of putting in place sensible laws. you would have left

the European Court of human rights. We have already started the process

of negotiation. There was some progress, but limited, and we would

like to move further. Let me give you one other. I think this country

has a great future but we can only ourselves the best place in the

world to come and set up a business. ourselves the best place in the

If we make ourselves the best place entrepreneurship and I think there

are a host of things we could do to go further on cutting back red tape.

And the Lib Dems have stopped you? I think that is the case. In what

ways, if any, have the Lib Dems improved the coalition process? It

has been a stable government. No one talks about when the next election

will come, we know it is in May talks about when the next election

but that is in part being in a coalition. The Tories wouldn't have

done that? It wasn't the plan of any party to go from... In the old days,

there would have been speculation. debate, you changed the British

constitution in a fundamental way and nobody got a say. It was debated

on the floor of the Has, as all constitutional changes are and there

was a lot of agreement -- of the House. Nobody has ever said to me

that it is a problem that we now have a fixed term parliament. Here

it is, every five years. This is what it has done, it has provided

stability in an incredibly uncertain economic time and that has been

stability in an incredibly uncertain for the economy. we will chalk that

up to delete -- Lib Dem. What about taking people out of tax, the Lib

Dems did that question mark it is a great policy. It is a conservative

led government, it is a Conservative This is a screen grab from your

party's website, income tax cut This is a screen grab from your

25 million people. You are taking the credit for it, it wouldn't have

happened without the Lib Dems. It certainly came about because of

happened without the Lib Dems. It coalition and we put it in the

coalition agreement. It could not have happened without a Conservative

Chancellor making it happen. It have happened without a Conservative

right, 25 million people taken out of tax. Another 17 by this April

will not be paying tax at all. you didn't want to do it. Look at what

David Cameron told Nick Clegg during What Nick Clegg is promising is

David Cameron told Nick Clegg during £17 billion tax cut. We are saying,

stop the waste of 6 billion to stop the national insurance rise. I would

love to take everyone out of their first £10,000 of income tax, it

love to take everyone out of their beautiful idea but we cannot afford

unaffordable and now you are taking the credit for it. I feel like it is

having a three year afterwards argument, and we got into coalition

because the British people put us there and we agreed to make the

because the British people put us of it. And as it happens, if you

absolutely think it is the right thing to take as many people out of

tax entirely as possible. Two points 7 million people pay no tax at all

threshold. -- 2.7 million. I'm pleased it worked out. What are

threshold. -- 2.7 million. I'm most important thing is a majority

Tory government would do after most important thing is a majority

unencumbered by the Lib Dems? I think produce even more jobs when

unemployment goes down, because think produce even more jobs when

are the most entrepreneurial place to set up a business. Are more

free-market economy? We make our money because we are out global

trading economy. That is why it money because we are out global

so important that we have to make sure it is easy to trade around

so important that we have to make world. One simple example, it is

crazy in my view that we have global tariffs that prevent some of the

hardest other countries in the tariffs that prevent some of the

hardest other countries in the world, in developing parts of the

world, from exporting to us and world, in developing parts of the

versa. I'm giving you a platform of things that I think we would be

versa. I'm giving you a platform of interested in progressing in. It

sounds like you are talking about even more Thatcherite, market led

agendas. I think that you did a even more Thatcherite, market led

amount to show this country that if you want to help the least well

amount to show this country that if people in society, and the least

well off people in the world, around the globe, the way to do it is to

trade, and I think we should have an economy which is much more open

trade, and I think we should have an free trade. If there is another

trade, and I think we should have an parliament, and the poll suggest

there might be, at the moment it is all to play for on both sides, what

would your non-negotiable Red Line speak? We are still two years away

from that, it is a long way away, but there is a lot we want to lay

out. What we are going to be saying to this country is most people want

a single party running the country, they think it is clean and clear and

you don't end up with negotiation setting out a very clear platform

which will be for hard-working people in this country who want

which will be for hard-working work hard and get on in life. We

would, I think, want to see the welfare state that we have got into,

where it is no longer about helping those most in need but became a

situation where you are better off not working than in worker, I think

we plan to ensure that this is an incredibly fair place to go out

we plan to ensure that this is an do a day's work and get the money at

the end of the day rather than thinking there is an alternative.

you have promised a referendum on UK membership of the EU in 2017, that

must be your first Red Line? We membership of the EU in 2017, that

clear, we want to see a referendum, a reform European Union. So no

poll... ? I should remind viewers that there is an act of Parliament,

a bill going through Parliament right now, for a referendum on the

EU, which comes back to the House. It is past the report stage and

comes back in November and we will be discussing it. The Lib Dems,

Labour, will have an opportunity to support what the British people

want. Lots may have changed. But it would be a Red Line for any future

coalition government question mark we are clear that it is time to

coalition government question mark manifesto. What is wrong with yes or

no? I cannot write the manifesto for 2015. You are asking me to project

beyond that and see in advance the election result and carry out the

negotiations that are yet to come. I'm just trying to work out how

much... I know you are committed but she won't tell me. Let's move on.

Your party has been described as nasty and blinkered. What do you

feel when he says that? We are interested in helping the most

vulnerable people in society. I think we're doing all that and more.

And it is a shame that that language was used because we have made so

much progress together. Are you getting to the end of your tether

with Mr King? I do not think it getting to the end of your tether

terribly helpful for any Cabinet minister to make comments like that.

What I would say is that Nick Clegg minister to make comments like that.

is the leader of the Lib Dems and himself. Look at these figures on

party membership. Why has your party lost half of its members since Mr

Cameron became leader? I would like it to be more. But I think the world

has changed. People do not rush it to be more. But I think the world

and join political parties as they used to. Instead they support you in

different ways. If I released the number of people who give to the

party in different ways, through donations for example, through

friend memberships. If you include that that figure goes back up. But

a time when UKIP has doubled. I that that figure goes back up. But

not want to to misinterpret what I want to say. It is important to

not want to to misinterpret what I members. I think we will have done

election. But one statistic of interest, in the last election I had

constituency. The difference was I deliver leaflets and knock on the

doors. The Conservative party has changed. We now have an army of

people, volunteers who are not days when you expect people to give

you £25, before you accept their spoke about your most vulnerable

marginal seats. This is a poll from Michael Ashcroft. The 40 most

marginal seats that you will be defending. Labour is way up, you are

way down and UKIP is also up. What is happening, the Lib Dem Mo -- both

are moving to Labour. And disillusioned Conservatives are

moving to UKIP. If these figures came at an election he would lose 32

of these 40 seats. The point about any opinion poll is that it is

perhaps accurate at the moment it is taken. We are now in a position

where the economy has turned the corner. The right thing to do was to

deal with the deficit. The people being asked about these things, they

will be interested in their own standard of living. Their mortgage

payments. Why are you doing worse in the marginal seats? National League

you are kind of nip and tuck with Labour. Well if that is the pick to

come 2015, people will see that this government has stuck to its guns. It

did not go for more borrowing and spending. And the record

demonstrates that the last thing you want to do is give the car keys back

to the people who crashed it in the first place. Lynton Crosby at this

away day of Conservative MPs, his one message was to go all out and

attack Ed Miliband. It is going to be a nasty election. That is

actually not true. We are going to focus on his policies, if he finally

announces some. Everything we have seen so far suggests it would mean

more borrowing and spending. The shadow chancellor said we would be

ruthless, just a few months later, 27.9 pounds of extra spending

committed by Labour. These are your figures. I will speak to you about

that during the Tory conference. It's just after 11:30. You're

watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes. Alastair

Campbell gives us his not-too-positive review of Damian

In welcome to Sunday Politics in the McBride's memoirs. Until then, the

In welcome to Sunday Politics in the South.

Today, a tale of two conferences. UKIP are riding high after recent

elections, and they translate that to seat in Westminster? And can

Labour ever recapture the glory days?

Let me today. They both will be candidates, hoping for your vote in

the next general election. Both also are ex—media. Chris, used to be on

the radio, and Judith you are on the other side of the camera in

television. The big media is a preparation for politics?

I think that being a journalist is a preparation for politics because you

get a broad view. I worked in science documentaries so I have a

broad view of science and technology. But I think life is a

good preparation for politics. It is about having children, having

elderly parents. You have in common with David

Cameron and his media background. Chris, would you say that you

shouldn't be just politician apprentices?

I think in labour and the south—east there are people who have come up in

the ranks. Myself, I worked in radio and was in natural progression to

come to politics. The first of those conferences I

mentioned has been going on in London. Joining me from our

Westminster studio is really Finch, leader of the UKIP group and one of

his party's MEP candidates for June 2014. As a conference been going?

We have probably got upwards of 1500 members here. I challenge any of the

other parties to have that many activists. Our activists actually

come out. You are the anti—politics party.

When people go to Brussels for UKIP, they can stand up and be rude about

everybody, but in Hampshire county council are you still anti—politics?

We are in favour of the people, not politicians.

Which means? We do what people want us to do, not

what central party tells us to do. A politician's job is to come up

with the direction of travel. Not just do what people want, surely?

We have our policies, people vote for us, and then we just go ahead

and listen to them when they tell us things. For instance, in Hampshire

we are running a rolling programme where we go out and meet people.

Everyone of our divisions are going out and doing an open Question Time.

That is real local politics for you. It is not listening to what the

party tells you. We don't even have equipped system.

Which is all a bit anarchic Tom isn't it? It is when the council has

to decide how to put money aside for its priority on education or social

services or improving the roads, UKIP say, we will listen to the

people. We don't know exactly what you stand for.

We know what we stand for, people know what we stand for, that's why

they vote for us. But in the end, if there are tough decisions to be

made, then the people's voice should be paramount, always. We are the

servants of the people, not the other way around.

Nigel Fabrice is a one—man band, isn't he?

Members defecting to the Conservatives. And this time around,

you have got a good chance, but the writing is on the wall, isn't it?

It may seem a poisoned chalice, but what UKIP MEPs are there to do is to

work in this country. We can't do anything over in Brussels. Anyone

who says that UKIP MEPs are lazy because they are not sitting there

crossing the eyes and dotting the Tees in Brussels and Strasbourg, no,

we're not. Because we are working here in this country.

And those councillors who were elected last time, have been working

hard or causing trouble? Working extremely hard.

What has been your achievement? We are chasing the present Tory

administration and I feel we will be in charge next time.

You will be in charge in Hampshire? Yes, they are running scared.

You are party which is all about Europe. How are you to run education

in Hampshire? How you want to do the roads?

With respect, that is ridiculous. You have seen are manifestoes. You

know that we believe in local politics. But it has to be locally

done. If any of our members, any of our councillors are told by their

local people that some aspect of our party's policy isn't right for them,

then they are entirely within their rights to vote against it. They will

never hear a word of criticism from me.

Ray Finch, thank you. We look forward to the day when you take

over in Hampshire and we can see how you're doing.

The Liberal Democrats were in Glasgow for their conference last

week, and we had announcements about charges for plastic bags, free

school meals. The Saudis to be a stronghold for the party, recently

they have lost three MPs. How are activists feeling about their

prospects? Liberal Democrats love their

history. It was a long time ago they were last in government. At the

exhibition hall delegates from Dorset were finding out about the

deep history of their party. Last seat in East Dorset in 1929.

We got a really good turnout from mid Dorset. There are eight of us

here. We are committed to what we're doing. In the areas where we have

got a strong presence, people will travel, because there is a huge

benefit to being amongst other Lib Dems and being able to form future

policy. What is so great up here is that we have been forming our

manifesto. There is a constant succession of

votes over the five days, and even the Deputy Prime Minister spoke on

the economy is if you were a delegate.

We must not assume everything is fine. It would be all too easy to

bring about growth by rushing spending and a housing boom. We

don't want to do that. We have a gone through so much pain. We want

to keep pushing ahead, creating jobs, apprenticeships, the

manufacturing sector. Improving all the time. One of my proudest moments

when I retire will be if we have seen a significant increase in the

manufacturing sector, having lived three massive decline over the

years. And the demonstrators kept their

good humour, dumping appreciated by fellow musician, this member.

I think it's great that people are able to make a political point any

humorous way. It brings more attention than it would buy just

shouting at you. In terms of the music, it's nothing like my band.

At this moment, you still happy to be in the coalition with things like

the bedroom tax? There are difficult decisions, but

yes the coalition is good for the country. The company would have been

a much worse state if there wasn't a Cornish on. I think the coalition is

doing a job, by and large. What will we remember from this

conference? A tax on plastic bags, free school meals for instance?

Returning Liberal Democrats may kill that he corner has been turned, and

they don't want to lose a place in government.

Judith, was the closing speech inspirational, or was it a

conference where you have to dampen down enthusiasm?

We love being in government will stop will the fact that we are able

to enact a lot of good policies. And we're not just saying it, we are

really doing it. We have serious policies that are actually doing

some good for people in the UK. Whether it's the...

Eating compromises to get in there? We're not ruling party. But frankly,

if you read the Daily Mail and the daily Telegraph, you would think we

might be, as they are angry we have got so many socially responsible

policies through. We have reduced income tax massively, we're taking

20 million people out of tax. We have got £2 billion going into

schools to help the poorest pupils, which does help all kids, because if

you reduce the destruction in class of kids who are achieving, then

everybody benefits. The result of seriously good stuff going on.

They sell a good liberal policies, Chris.

The big issue we have across the South is the cost of living crisis.

Every time we go out meet people, it is the bills that are going up, it

is the energy bills and train fares. We need to do something seriously.

What about those things Judith was saying, increasing income tax

threshold? The result of issues. There are

areas like free school meals. It is a great idea but spending 600

million on that, there is other more pressing treasures on people's

budgets. Too many middle—class families

benefiting from free school meals? It's about priorities, who do we

help first. We have the largest attainment gap

in the whole of UK in West Berkshire. We need these policies to

keep the kids focused at school. If you can't help the kids in those

early years, then you're not going to get the education that means they

can go on. Whether they go on to vocational training or

apprenticeships. We have created over 1 million

apprenticeships. A big Labour theme. Let's talk about the Liberal

conference. If you were watching last week you would know we have

been trying to gauge how we the voters see the different parties by

asking, if they were an animal, which animal would they be? This

week it is the turn of the Labour Party.

Something deceitful like a snake. At the moment it's a tortoise.

Labour is a panther, stealthily achieving its goals.

A sleeping cat. A chameleon, because they just

change ideas and policies left right and centre.

Like a squirrel, because there are loads of them, but nobody takes any

notice. It's like a hyena, because they are

weak at the back. An elephant, because they are sturdy

and they are strong. And hold their, the Russians at one

time, —— rushes at one time, but not any more.

An aardvark. A mouse.

A bunch of monkeys. Oh sorry monkey, Chris?

I like the elephant, actually. Chameleon comes up for every party.

Labour's conference in Brighton. Before he left for Sussex, I caught

up with the party leader. He kicked off with the policy announcement

about the spear rims up today. We are going to end the bedroom tax

because we think it is unfair, it is wrong and it is not working. We will

find the money I ending board tax loopholes. I think that is the right

priority for the country, and shows what our conference has gone to be

about, which is how we tackle the cost of living prices. Facing not

just those who pay the bedroom tax, but families right across this

region and the country. On your figures, that would help

40,000 figures in the South, at least.

There are many more people —— what we are going to do, and we will talk

about this, is building more houses in this country, because that is

fundamental. And how we can tackle the cost of

living prices, whether it is energy prices, real fears, taxes, those

things that people are facing right now. We have a government saying

that the economy is healing, but ordinary families feel that the

economy is getting worse. The Labour Party is on the site.

This £470 million that you are saying you will use to get rid of

the spear in subsidy could surely have gone towards a living wage

campaign, particularly in the south where costs are so high.

We have to make a judgement about how you spend money. But I believe

that the bedroom tax is deeply unfair. The country, we should do

the right thing. We shouldn't cut taxes on hedge funds is when we are

imposing that kind of misery on people. This is a Labour government

is taking the side of ordinary families and making fairer decisions

and this government is making you stop the first time you are in

Brighton, you haven't got married. Now you are, are you looking

differently at the idea of marriage tax breaks?

No, I'm not. I think the way we should support families is

supporting children. Whatever the shape and size of the family, I

think that's the right thing to do. I don't think we should penalise

single parents or widows or those who have been divorced. I think the

right thing to do is to support children in this country and do more

for childcare in Britain. I think that is the right priority.

And when you went to Oxford, you want a seat in the local elections

will stop when you spend a lot more time campaigning in those unwinnable

southern seats? Lots of southern seats are winnable.

I'm not saying we will unseat David Cameron as an MP, but we will

campaign right across the South, as we have an important message about

the cost of living which faces so many families. But what our

conference is about, and that of the election will be about.

Chris, you are in one of those winnable seats, because Crawley was

Labour for many years. It is the cost of living, isn't it?

It's a big issue, but housing is a big issue. We can't get enough

housing. 3000 people on the housing list at least, and it is making sure

that we can negotiate with authorities to release land. We have

land all around us, but we just don't own it. That is a policy I

would certainly fight for. And the announcement on the bedroom

tax, that actually is a policy which is starting to release, and still

will be, starting to release some large houses which are under

occupied and should be released. Something should be done. I was

speaking to a woman recently in tears who was absolutely devastated.

She had been worrying for months about the spare room tax, and wasn't

affected, but no one had told her. I am delighted that Labour are going

to end it. How do Liberal Democrat feel about

it? Liberal Democrats don't like the

bedroom tax, at conference, Liberal Democrats don't like the bedroom

tax. This should have been one of those

red lines, then. We can't get everything we want. But

we don't like the bedroom tax. I would say I am slightly surprised

that it has taken him six months to get round to seeing he would get rid

of it. What about tax breaks for married

people. Is that something that could win votes for the coalition, or

would it just win votes for conservatives if the amounts that?

There is no question of winning votes for the coalition. The

coalition doesn't exist outside of the existing government. It will win

votes for the Tories, I don't know if it will win votes for Lib Dems.

You are posed? As you said, you don't want to

penalise one kind of family over another. Families are complicated

these days. And to favour one format rather than another doesn't seem

entirely reasonable. Again, we have got a lot of other things to spend

money on. Two different candidates from

different parties, and you are agreeing here against the

Conservatives. Would you like Vince is your Chancellor?

No thank you. Would you like the prospect of a

coalition? We don't know what kind to happen.

It would be easier for the voters if they know what they're voting for.

How can Nick Clegg stand—up at the conference say, give us another

coalition. You can't vote for a coalition.

He didn't say that. He said, this is our vision, this is what we stand

for... He is saying, give us another

coalition, and we will work with Labour.

They are saying, vote for the people you agree with, and we will see

where the votes fall. You want to commend on your own.

I am fighting for a Labour government in 2015. There will be a

wealth of policies coming very soon. You had about the bedroom tax,

Labour supporters have been working for that for a while. Would have

liked is Lib Dems have stood up at the time, but that didn't happen.

There are hundreds of families in Crawley being distressed by the

bedroom tax, and of Labour does get it back, we can turn some of those

decisions around. Now our round—up of the week in 60

seconds. Campaigners against fracking

defeated a High Court action by West Sussex county council to remove the

protest camp. They say they will now leave when the company stopped

rolling. 14 new students at Oxford Brookes

University are being put up any hotel. A new block is not finished,

they were guaranteed accommodation. Also in Oxford, and haptic young

woman safe and get them home has been developed by a mother to offer

help to her binge thinking kids. Some may be alcoholics, but most are

not. In Reading this week, puppets have

been teaching people about dementia. If someone acts like that, then you

need to respect them. There is a petition in Surrey

against cycling events, after claims that road users are being cancelled

by Lycra lights. And this man rejects calls that he

assaulted a constituent. Others say there is a case to answer.

Fascinating that the mother of her binge drinking mother is saying that

what we need is something practical, and so she has developed this thing

to say that they can finally taxi, find the way home. And now we have

this idea of drunk tanks funded by G four S.

I wouldn't be against them. I've known people who have had alcoholics

in the family, and they don't want them back home that evening. The

idea of someone being kept overnight, especially if it is

someone who may be violent, that doesn't upset me. The question of

how much you would charge them, we have to find out more.

It's the fault of 24 hour licences, which was a Labour idea, Chris.

The idea of drunk tanks has come from the United States. On a Friday

Saturday night here, you can smell the alcohol as you walk through the

street. Something has to be done. Whether it is done by private tender

or on by the hospital, it takes a huge pressure off the NHS, as well

as policing, of course. You agree with each other, now you

have agreed with the nice coalition policy involving G four S. By giving

much. That is Sunday Politics from the south. I say to

much. That is Sunday Politics from Blackman and Sadiq Khan, thanks very

my youth. The halcyon days of the 2000s, when the warring Blairite and

Brownite tribes fought over who should run the Labour Party. Gordon

Brown's chief spin doctor Damian should run the Labour Party. Gordon

Brown's chief spin doctor Damian McBride - McPoison, or worse, to his

enemies - has published his memoirs, timed for maximum impact in the

enemies - has published his memoirs, of Labour's Conference. They detail

how Mr McBride briefed against colleagues, brought down Cabinet

Ministers, that is - and fought tooth and nail to promote the man he

called "the greatest man he ever met" - Gordon Brown. Joining us

called "the greatest man he ever is Tony Blair's former Director

called "the greatest man he ever Communications, Alastair Campbell.

You are angry about what he has Communications, Alastair Campbell.

in this book. Why is that. It is partly the fact that he has done it

in a way that will be -- will be damaging to the Labour Party at

in a way that will be -- will be time. But also because of the lies

that he told at the time that he now communications and trying to hold

the thing together, build the team. There was also Charlie Whelan and

others. And that job was made more difficult than it should have been.

I used to challenge Gordon Brown about it. And there came a stage

where I said if Whelan does not about it. And there came a stage

I will go. And when Damian McBride was on the scene I was clear that I

was not going to have anything to do with him. Because of what he is

was not going to have anything to do admitting to, I think they played

quite a significant part in pushing Labour out of power. Because the

public were being fed by them, this public were being fed by them, this

narrative, the whole time. That Blair was useless, Charles Clarke

was useless. And I think that we where the government and had very

good ministers trying to do big things for the country. I said this

morning it was like being a foot tall team were on the pitch you

morning it was like being a foot your own players kicking the star

players. That is why I am angry about it because I think they helped

usher in a conservative government. If we had all stuck together I think

did not win the last election, that is a reasonable point. But surely

undermine Tony Blair and to promote their man, Gordon Brown. It is

inconceivable then that Gordon Brown did not know about it. Well in spite

reasonably good relationship with Gordon Brown. I used to challenge

him a lot about what Whelan was doing. He would always say, I will

sort it out. Another thing that annoys me is this sense put forward

by the right wing media that there was this sense of equivalence.

People like Steve who I have known for years, there is not a single

journalist with the very occasional exception where I lost my temper,

who would honestly be able to tell you that I ever breathed against

ministers. That was my golden rule. People say you were the forerunner.

I know it was not the case. One People say you were the forerunner.

the reasons why I do despise what they did, the whole spin thing which

associated with, once I wrote a actually within the government,

associated with, once I wrote a had a principle of maximum openness

and trust. Anyone could come to had a principle of maximum openness

morning meetings on condition that what was discussed their state as

part of the team. I had to say to Gordon Brown, your people are not

coming. Because I knew where it Gordon Brown, your people are not

coming from. Did you know that the time but Charles Clarke and others

were effectively being destroyed from within the Labour government? I

certainly knew that they thought that. I did know journalists telling

me that that was what was happening. Ultimately, this is why I never

me that that was what was happening. leaders, it is ultimately up to

me that that was what was happening. litre. Possibly in a different age

Gordon Brown would have been an amazing Prime Minister. He was a

great chancellor. But he had a flaw, this need for truly horrible

people to be around him doing truly horrible things in politics and

giving him and the Labour Party horrible things in politics and

politics a bad name. That is why I'm still angry about Damian McBride.

What do you make of it? The current administration is a contrast. We

have rival factions occupying the same offices but they still get

have rival factions occupying the The only time they have a row is

when something really big happens. But with that one party in Downing

Street there was fighting the whole time. Did Ed Balls know about this.

I would assume so. I spoke with time. Did Ed Balls know about this.

about it at the time. He told me at the time that he had spoken about it

with Gordon Brown. So I think there was a concern from within that camp

about some of these activities at equivalence, in life you expect

about some of these activities at see that there is full on both

sides. But I do not buy it in this see that there is full on both

case. If you look at the testimonies see that there is full on both

over the years, what you can surmise about the character of Gordon Brown

and of Tony Blair, it was ultimately driven by Gordon Brown and the

people around him. The Blairites did things but they did then by way

people around him. The Blairites did retaliation rather than initiation.

The one-time when I did lose it retaliation rather than initiation.

the whole psychological force thing. That came at the end of a period

when we were relentlessly being That came at the end of a period

in by Charlie Whelan and his gang of journalists. I would go along to

colleagues would be there and I journalists. I would go along to

had to sit there and not hit back. Saying I cannot believe Gordon Brown

would have anything to do with this. You get to the stage where your

would have anything to do with this. credibility is on the line. Coming

promotion of alcohol awareness. credibility is on the line. Coming

before that the Labour Party, you never had to deal with this in

opposition because you were pretty far ahead in the polls by midterm.

This time that is not the case. far ahead in the polls by midterm.

is surprisingly narrow. What advice would you give to Ed Miliband? To

keep his head out side of this bubble but it's all about him. And

to use this week to really speak to the British people about himself,

particularly the kind of policy agenda he is shaping for the future.

And start to heart -- start to hit the Tories hard. They're not pop,

they're not competent. They're screwing up the health service.

they're not competent. They're yet they are neck and neck. I would

say that the whole Shadow Cabinet understand that you win elections by

wanting to win elections every minute of every day. There is too

much complacency. A small lead now you have to grow that. You do that

with energy and conviction and policy. Tony Blair had a huge pole

bead in the run-up to 1997. We were winning seat where we had not even

campaigned and he was saying, why celebrate because we have not won

yet. You are promoting your alcohol celebrate because we have not won

yet. You are promoting your alcohol awareness campaign. Perhaps the

party conference is not the best place to do that! That is one reason

why I am doing that. I'm hosting probably the only alcohol free

reception of the week! There is nothing worse than a convert, I

reception of the week! There is that. But I travel a lot. I travel

around the world and Britain has a something we should be ashamed of.

Why is that, is it cultural? I think it is historical. But I dig David

Cameron was right to go for minimum unit pricing and wrong to do a

reversal. 6% of alcoholics get treatment. I expect that drugs are a

problem but we spent £2 billion treatment. I expect that drugs are a

100,000 problem drug takers and treatment. I expect that drugs are a

million on 1.6 million problem have written this book about a young

million on 1.6 million problem alcoholic, a teenager. And it is in

the first person. People could think you are writing about yourself.

did you choose a teenage girl? Well did you choose a teenage girl? Well

partly, I dedicated this to the Southampton. He told me when he

started his career that his patience was split nine to one, men to women

and it is now 50 - 50. They're getting younger and younger. One

doctor looking after me said I will take you around this hospital and

the problems of alcohol are in every single ward. Not just accident and

emergency. I watched the foot all, advertisements for gambling and

advertising. How have we allowed this to happen, ? We are just awash

with it. What we did I think on Availability and price either too

means by which you can bring this down. And the country that has had

the biggest success on this is Russia, bizarrely. Thank you very

much for that. That's all for today. Thanks to all our guests. I'll be

with live coverage of Labour Party Conference, including the speech

from the man who wants to be the next Chancellor, Ed Balls. Remember