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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
Labour's been hit hard by scandals at the Co-op. Ed Miliband says the | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
Tories are mudslinging. We'll speak to Conservative Chairman Grant | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
Shapps. Five years on from the financial | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
crisis, and we're still talking about banks in trouble. Why haven't | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
the regulators got the message? We'll ask the man who runs the | :00:53. | :00:58. | |
City's new financial watchdog. And he used to have a windmill on | :00:59. | :01:01. | |
his roof and talked about giving hugs to hoodies and huskies. These | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
days, not so much. Has the plan to make the | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
In the South: Children's Centres under threat of closure in | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
Oxfordshire ` including one in the Prime Minister's own constituency. | :01:14. | :01:14. | |
What are they playing at? warned that benefit falls will be to | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
homelessness and population ships. What is the evidence? | :01:20. | :01:26. | |
And as always, the political panel that reaches the parts other shows | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
can only dream of. Janan Ganesh Helen Lewis and Nick Watt. They ll | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
be tweeting faster than England loses wickets to Australia. Yes | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
they're really that fast. First, some big news overnight from | :01:40. | :01:42. | |
Geneva, where Iran has agreed to curb some of its nuclear activities | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
in return for the partial easing of sanctions. Iran will pause the | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
enrichment of uranium to weapons grade and America will free up some | :01:50. | :02:00. | |
funds for Iran to spend. May be up to $10 billion. A more comprehensive | :02:01. | :02:03. | |
deal is supposed to be done in six months. Here's what President Obama | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
had to say about this interim agreement. We have pursued intensive | :02:07. | :02:14. | |
diplomacy, bilaterally with the Iranians, and together with our | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
partners, the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Russia and China, | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
as well as the European Union. Today, that diplomacy opened up a | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
new path towards a world that is more secure, a future in which we | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
can verify that Iraq and's nuclear programme is peaceful, and that it | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
cannot build a nuclear weapon. President Obama spoke from the White | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
House last night. Now the difficulty begins. This is meant to lead to a | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
full-scale agreement which will effectively end all sanctions, and | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
end Iran's ability to have a bomb. The early signs are pretty good The | :02:58. | :03:00. | |
Iranian currency strengthened overnight, which is exactly what the | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
Iranians wanted. Inflation in Iraq is 40%, so they need a stronger | :03:07. | :03:13. | |
currency. -- information in Iran. France has played a blinder. It was | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
there intransigence that led to this. Otherwise, I think the West | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
would have led to a much softer deal. The question now becomes | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
implementation. Here, everything hinges on two questions. First, who | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
is Hassan Rouhani? Is he the Iranians Gorbachev, a serious | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
reformer, or he's here much more tactical and cynical figure? Or | :03:39. | :03:44. | |
within Iran, how powerful is he There are military men and | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
intelligence officials within Iran who may stymie the process. The | :03:48. | :03:54. | |
Western media concentrate on the fact that Mr Netanyahu and the | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
Israelis are not happy about this. They don't often mention that the | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
Arab Gulf states are also very apprehensive about this deal. I read | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
this morning that the enemies of Qatar and Kuwait went to Saudi king. | :04:10. | :04:20. | |
-- the MAs row. That is the key thing to watch in the next couple of | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
weeks. There was a response from Saudi Arabia, but it came from the | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
Prime Minister of Israel, who said this was a historic mistake. The | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
United States said there would be no enrichment of uranium to weapons | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
grade. In the last few minutes, the Iranian Foreign Minister has tweeted | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
to say that there is an inalienable right -- right to enrich. The key | :04:43. | :04:52. | |
thing is the most important thing that President Obama said in his | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
inaugural speech. He reached out to Iran. It failed under President | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
McKenna jab. Under President Rouhani, there seems to be progress. | :05:01. | :05:07. | |
There is potentially now what he talked about in that first inaugural | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
address potentially coming through. In the end, the key issue - and we | :05:12. | :05:18. | |
don't know the answer - is the supreme leader, not the president. | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
Will the supreme leader agreed to Iran giving up its ability to create | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
nuclear weapons? This is the huge ambiguity. Ayatollah Khamenei | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
authorise the position that President Rouhani took to Geneva. | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
That doesn't mean he will sign off on every bit of implementation over | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
the next six months. Even when President Ahmadinejad was president, | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
he wasn't really President. We in the West have to resort to a kind of | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
Iranians version of the study of the Kremlin, to work out what is going | :05:56. | :06:05. | |
on. And the problem the president faces is that if there is any | :06:06. | :06:12. | |
sign... He can unlock these funds by executive order at the moment, but | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
if he needs any more, he has to go to Congress. Both the Democrat and | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
the Republican side have huge scepticism about this. And he has | :06:22. | :06:28. | |
very low credibility now. There s already been angry noises coming | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
from quite a lot of senators. It was quite strange to see that photo of | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
John Kerry hugging Cathy Ashton as if they had survived a ship great | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
together. John Kerry is clearly feeling very happy. We will keep an | :06:41. | :06:51. | |
eye on this. It is a fascinating development. | :06:52. | :06:53. | |
More lurid details about the personal life of the Co-op Bank s | :06:54. | :06:56. | |
disgraced former chairman, the Reverend Paul Flowers. The links | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
between Labour, the bank and the wider Co-op movement have caused big | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
problems for Ed Miliband this week, and the Conservatives have been | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
revelling in it. But do the Tory allegations - Ed Miliband calls them | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
"smears" - stack up? Party Chairman Grant Shapps joins us from Hatfield. | :07:13. | :07:22. | |
Welcome to the programme. When it comes to the Co-op, what are you | :07:23. | :07:31. | |
accusing Labour of knowing and when? I think the simple thing to say here | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
is that the Co-op is an important bank. They have obviously got into | :07:36. | :07:41. | |
difficulty with Reverend flowers, and our primary concern is making | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
sure that that is properly investigated, and that we understand | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
what happened at the bank and how somebody like Paul Flowers could | :07:49. | :07:51. | |
have ended up thing appointed chairman. You wrote to edge Miliband | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
on Tuesday and asked him what he knew and when. -- you wrote to Ed | :07:57. | :08:03. | |
Miliband. But by Prime Minister s Questions on Wednesday, David | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
Cameron claims that you knew that Labour knew about his past all | :08:08. | :08:14. | |
along. What is the evidence for that? We found out by Wednesday that | :08:15. | :08:21. | |
he had been a Labour councillor Reverend Flowers, and had been made | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
to stand down. Certainly, Labour knew about that, but somehow didn't | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
seem to think that that made him less appropriate to be the chairman | :08:31. | :08:37. | |
of the Co-op bank. There was no evidence that Mr Miliband or Mr | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
Balls knew about that. I ask you again, what are you accusing the | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
Labour leadership of knowing? We know now that he stood down for very | :08:49. | :08:57. | |
inappropriate images on his computer, apparently. You are | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
telling me that they didn't know. I am not sure that is clear at all. I | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
have heard conflicting reports. There is a much bigger argument | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
about what they knew and when. There was a much bigger issue here. This | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
morning, Ed Miliband has said that they don't have to answer these | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
questions and that these smears This is ludicrous. These are | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
important questions about an important bank, how it ended up | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
getting into this position, and how a disastrous Britannia -- Italia | :09:27. | :09:33. | |
deal happen. -- Britannia deal happened. And we need to know how | :09:34. | :09:40. | |
the bank came off the rails. To be accused of smears for asking the | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
questions is ridiculous. I am just trying to find out what you are | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
accusing Labour of. You saying that the Labour leadership knew about the | :09:49. | :09:54. | |
drug-taking? Sorry, there was some noise here. I don't know what was | :09:55. | :10:03. | |
known and when. We do know that Labour, the party, certainly knew | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
about these very difficult circumstances in which he resigned | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
as a councillor. I think that the Labour Party knew about it. We knew | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
that Bradford did, but not London. Are you saying that Ed Miliband knew | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
about the inappropriate material on the Reverend's laptop? It is | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
certainly the case that Labour knew about it. But did Mr Miliband know | :10:27. | :10:33. | |
about it, and his predilection for rent boys? He will need to answer | :10:34. | :10:40. | |
those questions. It is quite proper to ask those questions. Surely, | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
asking a perfectly legitimate set of questions, not just about that but | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
about how we have ended up in a situation where this bank has made | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
loans to Labour for millions of pounds, that bank and the Unite | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
bank, who is connected to it. And how they made a ?50,000 donation to | :11:00. | :11:06. | |
Ed Balls' office. Ed Balls says that was nothing to do with Reverend | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
Flowers, and yet Reverend Flowers said that he personally signed that | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
off. Lots of questions to answer. David Cameron has already answered | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
them on Wednesday. He said that you now know that Labour knew about his | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
past all along. You have not been able to present evidence that | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
involve Mr Miliband or Mr Balls in that. So until you get that, surely | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
you should apologise? Hang on. He said that Labour knew about this, | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
and they did, because he stood down as a councillor. If Ed Miliband | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
didn't know about that, then why not? This was quite a serious thing | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
that happened. The wider point is about why it is that when you ask | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
perfectly legitimate questions about this bank, about the Britannia deal, | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
and about the background of Mr flowers, why is the response, it is | :11:59. | :12:08. | |
all smears? There are questions about how Labour failed to deal with | :12:09. | :12:11. | |
the deficit and how it hasn't done anything to support the welfare | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
changes, but there is nothing about that. Let us -- lets: To the wider | :12:16. | :12:24. | |
picture of the Co-operative Bank. Labour wanted the Co-op to take over | :12:25. | :12:32. | |
the Britannia Building Society, and it was a disaster. Do you accept | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
that? The government of the day has to be a part of these discussions | :12:38. | :12:44. | |
for regulatory reason. The government in 2009 - Ed Balls was | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
very pleased... But you supported that decision. There was a later | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
deal, potentially, for the Co-op to buy those Lloyds branches. There was | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
a proper process and it didn't go through just recently. If there had | :13:01. | :13:08. | |
been a proper process back in 2 09, would the Britannia deal have gone | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
through? First, you accept that the Tories were in favour of the | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
Britannia take over. Then your Chancellor Osborne went out of his | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
way to facilitate the purchase of the Lloyds branches, even though you | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
had no idea that the Co-op had the management expertise to become a | :13:27. | :13:34. | |
super medium. Correct? The difference is that that deal didn't | :13:35. | :13:40. | |
go through. There was a proper process that took place. Let's look | :13:41. | :13:47. | |
at the process. There was long indications as far back as January | :13:48. | :13:53. | |
2012 that the Co-op, as a direct result of the Britannia take over | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
which you will party supported, was unfit to acquire the Lloyds | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
branches. By January 2012, the Chancellor and the Treasury ignored | :14:03. | :14:09. | |
the warnings. Wide? In 2009, there was political pressure for the | :14:10. | :14:12. | |
Britannia to be brought together. Based on the information available, | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
this was supported, but that process ended up with a very, very | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
problematic takeover of the Britannia. Wind forward to this | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
year, and when the same types of issues were being looked at for the | :14:27. | :14:29. | |
purchase of the Lloyds deal, the proper process was followed, this | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
time with us in government, and that purchase didn't go through. It is | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
important that the proper process is followed, and when it was, it | :14:39. | :14:41. | |
transpired that the deal wasn't going to be done. But it was the | :14:42. | :14:51. | |
Treasury and the Chancellor who were the cheerleaders for the acquisition | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
of the Lloyds branches. But there was a warning that the Co-op did not | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
have enough capital on its balance sheet to make those acquisitions, | :15:01. | :15:03. | |
but instead of heeding those warnings, your people went to | :15:04. | :15:09. | |
Brussels to lobby for the requirements to be relaxed - why on | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
earth did you do that? Our Chancellor went to argue for all of | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
Rajesh banking, not specifically for the Co-op. He was arguing for the | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
mutuals to be given a special ruling. The idea was to make sure | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
that every bank in Britain could have a better deal, particularly the | :15:29. | :15:34. | |
mutuals, as you say. That is a proper thing for the Chancellor to | :15:35. | :15:37. | |
be doing. We could go round in circles here, but in the end, there | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
was not a takeover of the Lloyds branches, that is because we | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
followed a proper process. Had that same rigorous process been followed | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
in 2009, the legitimate question to ask is whether the Co-op would have | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
been -- would have taken over the Britannia. That is a proper question | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
to ask. It is no good to have the leader of the opposition say, as | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
soon as you ask any of these questions about anything where there | :16:03. | :16:05. | |
is a problem for them, they come back with, oh, this is all smears. | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
There are questions to ask about what the Labour government did, the | :16:11. | :16:13. | |
debt and the deficit they left the country with, the way they stopped | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
work from paying in this country. The big question your government has | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
two answer is, why, by July 201 , when it was clear there was a black | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
hole in the Co-op's balance sheet, your government re-confirmed the | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
Co-op as the preferred bidder for Lloyds - why would you do that? | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
Well, look, the good thing is, we can discuss this until the cows come | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
home, but there is going to be a proper, full investigation, so we | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
will find out what happened, all the way back. So, we will be able to get | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
to the bottom of all of this. Grant Shapps, the only reason the Lloyds | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
deal did not go ahead was, despite the Treasury cheerleading, when | :16:55. | :17:00. | |
Lloyds began its due diligence, it found that there was indeed a huge | :17:01. | :17:02. | |
black hole in the balance sheet and that the Co-op was not fit to take | :17:03. | :17:08. | |
over its branches. That wasn't you, it wasn't the Government, it was not | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
the Chancellor, it was Lloyds. You were still cheerleading for the deal | :17:14. | :17:19. | |
to go ahead... Well, as I say, a proper process was followed, which | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
did not result in the purchase of the Lloyds branches. At that proper | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
process been followed with the purchase of the Britannia, under the | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
previous government... Which you supported. Yes, but it may well be | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
that under that previous deal, there was a excess political pressure | :17:38. | :17:40. | |
perhaps put on in order to create that merger, which proved so | :17:41. | :17:49. | |
disastrous. The Tories facilitated it, Grant Shapps, they allowed it to | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
go ahead. I have said, we are going to have a proper, independent | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
review. What I cannot understand is, when you announce a robber, | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
independent review, the response you get to these serious questions. The | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
response is, oh, this is a smear. It is crazy. We are trying to answer | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
the big questions for this country. We have done all of that, and we are | :18:15. | :18:23. | |
out of time. The Reverend Flowers' chairmanship of the Co-op bank was | :18:24. | :18:26. | |
approved by the regulator at the time, which no longer exists. It was | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
swept away by the coalition government in a supposed revolution | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
in regulation. But will its replacement, the Financial Conduct | :18:37. | :18:39. | |
Authority, be different? Adam has been to find out. Come with me for a | :18:40. | :18:48. | |
spin around the Square mile to find out how we regulate our financial | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
sector, which is almost five times bigger than the country's entire | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
annual income. First, let's pick up our guide, journalist Iain Martin, | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
who has just written a book about what went so wrong during the | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
financial crisis. The FSA was an agency which was established to | :19:10. | :19:11. | |
supervise the banks on a day-to day basis. The Bank of England was | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
supposed to have overall responsible at for this to Bolivia the financial | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
system and the Treasury was supposed to take an interest in all of these | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
things. The disaster was that it was not anyone's call responsibility, or | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
main day job, to stay alert as to whether or not the banking system as | :19:31. | :19:33. | |
a whole was being run in a safe manner. And so this April, a new | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
system was set up to police the City. Most of the responsibly delays | :19:38. | :19:47. | |
here, with the Bank of England, and its new Prudential Regulation | :19:48. | :19:50. | |
Authority. And the Financial Services Authority has been replaced | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
with the new Financial Conduct Authority. Can we go to the | :19:55. | :20:00. | |
financial conduct authority, please? Canary Wharf, thank you. Here, it is | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
all about whether the people in financial services are playing by | :20:06. | :20:08. | |
the rules, in particular, how they treat their customers. This place | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
has got new powers, like the ability to ban products it does not like, a | :20:15. | :20:17. | |
new mandate to promote competition in the market, the concept being, | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
more competition means a better market, plus the idea that a new | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
organisation rings a whole new culture. Although these are the old | :20:27. | :20:33. | |
offices of the FSA, so maybe not quite so new after all. It has also | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
inherited the case of the Co-op bank and its disgraced former chairman | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
the Reverend Paul Flowers. The SCA will be part of the investigation | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
into what happened, which will probably involve looking at its own | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
conduct. One member of the Parliamentary commission into | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
banking wonders whether the new regulator, and its new boss, are up | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
to it. I have always said, it is not the architecture which is the issue, | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
it is the powers that the regulator has, and today, it does not seem to | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
me as if there is any increase in that. And with the unfolding scandal | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
at the Co-op, it feels like the new architecture for regulating the City | :21:15. | :21:21. | |
is now facing its first big test. And the chief executive of the | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
Financial Conduct Authority, the SCA, Martin Wheatley, joins me now. | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
Welcome to The Sunday Politics. The failure of bank regulation was one | :21:31. | :21:33. | |
of the clearest lessons of the crash in 2008, and yet two years later, in | :21:34. | :21:39. | |
2010, Paul Flowers is allowed to become chairman of the Co-op - why | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
have we still not got the regulation right? We have made a lot of changes | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
since then. We have created a new regulator, as you know. At the time, | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
we still had a process which allowed somebody to be appointed to a bank | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
and they would go through a challenge, but in the case of Paul | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
Flowers, there was no need for an additional challenge when he was | :22:02. | :22:03. | |
appointed to chairman, because he was already on the board. But going | :22:04. | :22:10. | |
from being on the board to becoming chairman, that is a big jump, and he | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
only had one interview? That is why today, it would be different. But | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
the truth is, that was the system at the time, the system which the FSA | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
operated. He was challenged, we did challenge him, and we said, you do | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
not have the right experience, but at the time, we would not have | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
opposed the appointment. What we needed was additional representation | :22:33. | :22:35. | |
of the board of people who did have banking experience. You can say that | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
that was then and this is now, but up until April of this year, it was | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
still the plan for the Co-op, under Mr Flowers, and despite being | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
seriously wounded by the Britannia takeover, to take on 632 Lloyds | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
branches. That was the Co-op's plan. They needed to pass our test | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
as to whether we thought they were fit to do that, and frankly, they | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
never passed that test. It was not the regulator that stopped them It | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
was. We were constantly pushing back, saying, you have not got the | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
capital, you have no got the systems, and ultimately, they | :23:12. | :23:13. | |
withdrew, when they could not answer our questions. You were asking the | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
right questions, I accept that, but all of the time, the politicians on | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
all sides, they were pushing for it to happen, and I cannot find | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
anywhere where the regulator said, look, this is just not going to | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
happen. I cannot comment on what the politicians were doing, but I | :23:35. | :23:37. | |
continue what we were doing, which was constantly asking the Co-op | :23:38. | :23:40. | |
have you got the systems in place, have you got the people, have you | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
got the capital? And they didn't. But it only came to a head when | :23:46. | :23:48. | |
Lloyds started its own due diligence on the bank, and they discovered | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
that it was impossible for them to take over the branches, it was not | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
the regulator... In fairness, what we do is ask the questions, can you | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
do this deal? And we kept pushing back, and we never frankly got | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
delivered a business plan which we were happy to approve. Is the SCA | :24:07. | :24:13. | |
going to launch its own inquiry into what happened? -- the FCA. The | :24:14. | :24:24. | |
Chancellor has announced what will be a very broad inquiry. There are a | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
number of specifics which we will be able to look at, relating to events | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
over the last five years. Could there be a police investigation I | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
think the police have already announced an investigation. I am | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
talking about into the handling of the bank. It depends. There might | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
be, if there is grim low activity, which we do not know yet. You worked | :24:47. | :24:55. | |
at the FS eight, didn't you? I did. Some of those people who were signed | :24:56. | :25:02. | |
off on the speedy promotion of Mr Flowers, are they now working | :25:03. | :25:08. | |
there? Yes, we have some. I came to join the Financial Services | :25:09. | :25:11. | |
Authority, to lead it into the creation of the new body, the SCA. | :25:12. | :25:17. | |
We had people who were challenging and they did the job. There was not | :25:18. | :25:28. | |
a requirement to approve the role as chairman. There was not even a | :25:29. | :25:31. | |
requirement to interview at that stage. What we did do was to require | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
that he was interviewed, and that the Co-op should get additional | :25:37. | :25:48. | |
experience. One of the people from the old organisation, who signed up | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
on the promotion of Mr Flowers to become chairman is now a | :25:54. | :25:55. | |
nonexecutive director of the Co op, so how does that work? Welcome he | :25:56. | :26:03. | |
was a senior adviser to our organisation, one of the people who | :26:04. | :26:06. | |
made the challenges, and who said, you need more experience on your | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
board. Subsequently he then went and joined the board. Surely that should | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
not be allowed, the regulator and the regulated should not be like | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
that. Well clearly, you need protection, but we have got to get | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
good people in, and frankly, we want the industry to have good people in | :26:26. | :26:28. | |
the industry, so there will be some movement between the regulator and | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
industry. We all wonder whether you have the power or even the | :26:34. | :26:36. | |
confidence to stand up if you look at all of the really bad bank | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
decisions recently, politicians were behind them. It was Gordon Brown who | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
pushed the disastrous merger of Lloyds and RBS. It was Alex Salmond | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
who egged on RBS to buy the world. All three main parties wanted the | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
Co-op to buy Britannia, even though they did not know the debt it would | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
inherit, and all three wanted the Co-op to buy the Lloyds branches - | :26:59. | :27:01. | |
how do you as a regulator stand up to that little concert party? Well, | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
that political pressure exists, our job at the end of the day is to do a | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
relatively technical job and say, does it stack up? And it didn't and | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
we made that point time and time again to the Co-op board. They did | :27:17. | :27:19. | |
not have a business case that we could approve. The bodies on left | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
and right -- the politicians on left and right gave the Co-op special | :27:24. | :27:30. | |
support. They may have done, but that was not you have made a warning | :27:31. | :27:37. | |
about these payday lenders, but I think what most people would like to | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
see is a limit put on the interest they can charge over a period of | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
time - will you do that? We have got a whole set of powers for payday | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
lenders. We will bring in some changes from April next year, and we | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
will bring in further changes as we see necessary. Will you put a limit | :27:55. | :27:57. | |
on the interest they can charge That is something we can study. You | :27:58. | :28:03. | |
do not sound too keen on it? Well, there are a lot of changes we need | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
to make. One change is limiting rollovers, limiting the use of | :28:09. | :28:11. | |
continuous payment authorities. Simply jumping to one trigger would | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
be a mistake. Finally, an issue which I think is becoming a growing | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
concern, because the Government is thinking of subsidising them, 9 % | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
mortgages are back - should we not be worried about that? I think we | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
should if the market has the same experiences that we had back in 2007 | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
- oh wait. We are bringing a comprehensive package in under our | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
mortgage market review, which will change how people lend and will put | :28:40. | :28:43. | |
affordability back at the heart of lending decisions. -- 2007-08. You | :28:44. | :28:54. | |
have not had your first big challenge yet, have you? We have | :28:55. | :28:56. | |
many challenges. It was once called the battle of the | :28:57. | :29:05. | |
mods and the rockers - the fight between David Cameron-style | :29:06. | :29:07. | |
modernisers and old-style traditional Tories for the direction | :29:08. | :29:10. | |
and soul of the Conservative Party. But have the mods given up on | :29:11. | :29:17. | |
changing the brand? When David Cameron took over in 2005, he | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
promoted himself as a new Tory leader. He said that hoodies need | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
more love. He was talking about something called the big society. He | :29:27. | :29:33. | |
told his party conference that it was time to that sunshine win the | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
day. There was new emphasis on the environment, and an eye-catching | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
trip to a Norwegian glacier to see first-hand, supposedly, the effects | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
of global warming. This week, party modernise and Nick bone has said | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
that the party is still seen as an old-fashioned monolith and hasn t | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
done enough to improve its appeal. The Tories have put some reforms | :29:56. | :30:04. | |
into practice, such as gay marriage, but they have put more into welfare | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
reform band compassionate conservatism. David Cameron wants | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
talked about leading the greenest government ever. Downing Street says | :30:14. | :30:21. | |
that the quote in the Son is not recognised, get rid of the green | :30:22. | :30:28. | |
crap. At this point in the programme we were expecting to hear from the | :30:29. | :30:31. | |
Energy and Climate Change Minister, Greg Barker. Unfortunately, he has | :30:32. | :30:33. | |
pulled out, with Downing Street saying it's for ""family reasons"". | :30:34. | :30:40. | |
Make of that what you will. However, we won't be deterred. We're still | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
doing the story, and we're joined by our very own mod and rocker - David | :30:46. | :30:48. | |
Skelton of the think-tank Renewal, and Conservative MP Peter Bone. | :30:49. | :30:54. | |
Welcome to you both. I'm glad your family is allowed you to come? David | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
Skelton, getting rid of all the green crap, or words to that effect, | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
that David Cameron has been saying. It is just a sign that Tory | :31:05. | :31:07. | |
modernisation has been quietly buried. I do think that's right | :31:08. | :31:13. | |
Modernisation is about reaching out to the voters, and the work to do | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
that is now more relevant than ever. We got the biggest swing since 931, | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
and the thing is we need to do more to reach out to voters in the North. | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
We need to reach out to non-white voters, and show that the concerns | :31:29. | :31:37. | |
of modern Britain and the concerns of ordinary people is something that | :31:38. | :31:41. | |
we share. And what way will racking up electricity bills with green | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
levies get you more votes in the North of England? We have to look at | :31:46. | :31:51. | |
ways to reduce energy bills. The renewable energy directive doesn't | :31:52. | :31:54. | |
do anything to help cut our emissions, but does decrease energy | :31:55. | :32:01. | |
bills by ?45 a year. We should renegotiate that. That is a part of | :32:02. | :32:04. | |
modernisation and doing what ordinarily people want. And old | :32:05. | :32:10. | |
dinosaurs like you are just holding this modernisation process back I | :32:11. | :32:16. | |
am very appreciative of covering on this programme. The Tory party has | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
been reforming itself for more than 150 years. This idea of modern eyes | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
a is just some invention. We are changing all the time. I'm nice and | :32:26. | :32:33. | |
cuddly! So you are happy that the party made gay marriage almost a | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
kind of symbol of its modernisation? Fine Mac the gay marriage was a free | :32:39. | :32:46. | |
vote. David Cameron was recorded as a rebel there because more Tories | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
voted against his position than ever before. It was said that this was a | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
split between the old and young but it actually was a split between | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
those who were religious and nonreligious. It is a | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
misinterpretation of what happened. Is a modernisation in retreat? I | :33:03. | :33:10. | |
think modernisation is an invention. Seven years ago, in my | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
part of the world, we got three councillors elected, two were 8 and | :33:16. | :33:21. | |
one was 21. A few months ago, a 25-year-old was chosen to fight | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
Corby for the Conservative Party. He came from a comprehensive School. He | :33:26. | :33:31. | |
was one of the youngest. The Tory party is moving on. So you found | :33:32. | :33:37. | |
three young people? Hang on a minute. You can't get away with | :33:38. | :33:46. | |
that. Three in one batch. Does modernisation exist? Modernisation | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
is about watering our appeal and sharing our values are relevant to | :33:52. | :33:54. | |
voters who haven't really thought about voting for us for decades now. | :33:55. | :33:59. | |
Modernisation is about more than windmills and stuff, it is about | :34:00. | :34:03. | |
boosting the life chances of the poorest, it is about putting better | :34:04. | :34:10. | |
schools in poorer areas. It is also saying that modernisation and the | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
Tory party... When has the Tory party been against making poorer | :34:16. | :34:20. | |
people better off? Or against better schools? Do you think Mrs Thatcher | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
was a moderniser when she won all those elections? The problem we have | :34:25. | :34:27. | |
at the moment is that UKIP has grown-up. If we could get all of | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
those people who vote UKIP to vote for us, we would get 47% of the | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
vote. We don't need to worry about voters on the left. We need to worry | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
about the voters in the north, those people who haven't voted for us for | :34:44. | :34:51. | |
decades. Having an EU Referendum Bill is going to get people to | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
vote. We have to reach out to voters, but not by some sort of | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
London based in need. You have to broaden your base. I agree with you | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
on that. We have to broaden our appeal, but this back to the future | :35:08. | :35:10. | |
concept is not going to work. We need something that generally | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
appeals to low and middle-income voters, and something that shows we | :35:16. | :35:17. | |
genuinely care about the life genuinely care about the life | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
chances of the poorest. Do you think that the people who vote UKIP don't | :35:23. | :35:30. | |
support those aspirations? We are not doing enough to cut immigration. | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
We don't have an EU Referendum Bill stop we have to get the centre right | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
to vote for us again. Do that, and we have it. Tom Pursglove, the 25 | :35:39. | :35:46. | |
euros, will be returned in Corby because we cannot win an election | :35:47. | :35:59. | |
there. -- the 25-year-old. Whether you are moderniser or | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
traditionalist, people, particularly in the North, see you as a bunch of | :36:05. | :36:12. | |
rich men. And rich southerners. You are bunch of rich southerners. We | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
need to do more to show that we are building on lifting the poorest out | :36:18. | :36:23. | |
of the tax. We need to build more houses. There is a perception that | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
the leadership at the moment is rich, and public school educated. | :36:28. | :36:34. | |
What we have to do is get more people from state education into the | :36:35. | :36:40. | |
top. You are going the other way at the moment. That is a fair | :36:41. | :36:48. | |
criticism. Modernisers also say that. I went to a combo hedge of | :36:49. | :36:55. | |
school as well. -- do a comprehensive school. We need to | :36:56. | :36:58. | |
show that we are standing up for low income. Thank Q, both of you. You | :36:59. | :37:07. | |
are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just under 20 minutes, | :37:08. | :37:17. | |
Welcome to Sunday Politics South. On today's show: female genital | :37:18. | :37:22. | |
mutilation has been against the law for almost 30 years in this country, | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
but no`one has ever been prosecuted for it. Now a committee of MPs wants | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
to find out why. More on that shortly. | :37:32. | :37:37. | |
First, though, let's meet the two politicians who are going to be with | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
me for the next 20 minutes. Layla Moran is the Liberal Democrat for | :37:42. | :37:44. | |
Oxford West Abingdon. Hello. And Ian Hudspeth is the Conservative | :37:45. | :37:46. | |
leader of Oxfordshire County Council. Hello. | :37:47. | :37:49. | |
Let's kick off with a little something from this week's Prime | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
Minister's Questions. Mr Speaker, can the Prime Minister tell us how | :37:54. | :37:56. | |
his campaign is going ` the campaign to save the Chipping Norton | :37:57. | :38:03. | |
Children's Centre. I support Children's Centres across the whole | :38:04. | :38:06. | |
of the country. The fact is, in spite of very difficult decisions | :38:07. | :38:09. | |
that have had to be made right across the country, the number of | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
Children's Centres has reduced by around 1%. Like all Members of | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
Parliament, I fight very hard for services in my constituency. He then | :38:18. | :38:23. | |
went on to ask why he'd signed a petition. Is that addressed to his | :38:24. | :38:26. | |
local council... That would be you, Ian. Or is he taking it straight to | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
the top? That would be the Prime Minister, I presume. Is this | :38:32. | :38:34. | |
hypocrisy? I don't think so. You've got to remember that David Cameron | :38:35. | :38:40. | |
is a constituency MP. Obviously he understands, and he wants to protect | :38:41. | :38:43. | |
it. But there are difficult decisions that have got to be taken. | :38:44. | :38:46. | |
We've got to produce a balanced budget at the end of the year, to | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
make sure we're in the right place and moving forward. He says this | :38:51. | :38:54. | |
government can hold its head up high because we are increasing the amount | :38:55. | :38:57. | |
of money that's going to local councils for Children's Centres. | :38:58. | :39:00. | |
That's not what you see in Oxfordshire, is it? It's just simply | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
not true. That money can't be ring fenced in that way. I agree with | :39:05. | :39:08. | |
you. I think it is hypocrisy. But the issue, I think, is Eric Pickles. | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
As a Cabinet Member, your job is to fight your corner within government. | :39:13. | :39:14. | |
He, for ideological reasons, has thought that there's been too much | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
waste in local government. He thinks it's a great idea to encourage more | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
cuts. When he came and did an interview in Oxfordshire, he got his | :39:23. | :39:25. | |
numbers completely wrong. He doesn't understand the picture on the | :39:26. | :39:29. | |
ground. But let's get back to David Cameron. Who's in charge here? Eric | :39:30. | :39:32. | |
Pickles or David Cameron? Does David Cameron want money to go to | :39:33. | :39:35. | |
Children's Centres? You talk to him. Is it just not getting through? He | :39:36. | :39:38. | |
wants to retain Children's Centres. He's a great supporter. Why doesn't | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
he do anything about it then!? One of the things that we are going to | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
be doing... The budget comes out in a few weeks and you'll see the | :39:48. | :39:50. | |
proposals. We're going to make sure that we've got a balanced budget. | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
But within that we've got to keep the envelope. You've got to remember | :39:55. | :39:57. | |
that these financial constraints are because of the need to reduce the | :39:58. | :40:00. | |
deficit. Both Conservative and Liberal Democrat MPs are making the | :40:01. | :40:03. | |
decisions. We've got to understand that. Both parties are reducing the | :40:04. | :40:10. | |
deficit. We've got to be in that. What we've got to do is look at | :40:11. | :40:13. | |
smarter ways of working. We've already done that in Oxford. Working | :40:14. | :40:19. | |
with the community. But in the end you've got less money from central | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
government? There's no doubt about it. We've got less money. You were | :40:24. | :40:26. | |
with me at the meetings. I had public meetings... I addressed | :40:27. | :40:29. | |
people... Understanding what was of concern to them. We've been | :40:30. | :40:35. | |
listening to that. I finished the last one on Thursday. We're going to | :40:36. | :40:39. | |
make all of those comments go into the budget and we'll see what | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
happens then. Not at the end of procedure. Let me just pick you up | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
on that. It is double standards, surely, for you to complain about | :40:48. | :40:50. | |
this when it is a Liberal Democrat government as well? Absolutely. We | :40:51. | :40:53. | |
are absolutely committed to getting the economy going again. That is | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
true. But there are times when you have got to fight your corner. The | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
fact is that Members of Parliament ` Conservative ones ` have not been | :41:02. | :41:04. | |
standing up for this issue. Oxfordshire County Council... I feel | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
sorry for you Ian. I'm sorry! You clearly don't have the influence on | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
the party that you thought you did. It's up to the MPs to make that case | :41:13. | :41:15. | |
on behalf of Oxfordshire. If Ian doesn't have influence, David | :41:16. | :41:18. | |
Cameron doesn't seem to have it either! You've got to remember that | :41:19. | :41:21. | |
the Coalition Government has got to reduce the deficit. Conservatives | :41:22. | :41:24. | |
and Liberals taking very tough decisions ` reducing the budget so | :41:25. | :41:27. | |
we can actually get the deficit down. That's what we have to do on | :41:28. | :41:31. | |
the ground, so we can deliver good services to the people of | :41:32. | :41:34. | |
Oxfordshire. Liberal Democrats are committed to keeping them open. In | :41:35. | :41:37. | |
my constituency, we're running a campaign to keep them open. I | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
mean... Danny Alexander doesn't sit there saying 'I had a bad pie in | :41:42. | :41:45. | |
Oxfordshire once... I'm not going to give them extra money'. It's about | :41:46. | :41:51. | |
the funding formula. That's decided by Eric Pickles and his ministry. If | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
that's wrong ` and I think it is, you're getting a raw deal ` we have | :41:56. | :42:04. | |
to stand up for what we want. The Liberal Democrats are involved in | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
reducing the budgets. Now, you might remember that 18 | :42:09. | :42:12. | |
months ago we met Lucy Herd. She was campaigning for statutory | :42:13. | :42:15. | |
bereavement leave. She's back with us today. Partly as a result of | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
being on that programme, her campaign came one step closer to | :42:20. | :42:26. | |
fruition this week. Have you got good news for us? I have. It was | :42:27. | :42:29. | |
mentioned in Prime Minister's Questions. It was! David Cameron | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
said he was sympathetic, partly because he lost his own son... | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
Absolutely. It was very moving. He said he would look into it and get | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
back to Tom Harris MP. He raised the question. He also had, back in | :42:43. | :42:49. | |
September, a Ten Minute Rule Bill? Yes. It didn't seem to go down that | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
well. At the time, they were suggesting that the 1996 Employment | :42:55. | :42:57. | |
Rights Act allows time off for dependence ` a legal right to unpaid | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
leave for family emergencies. One or two days to deal with the problem. | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
That's not enough, you're saying. Maybe guidance is the answer now? I | :43:07. | :43:17. | |
don't think guidance is enough. You're still under the discretion of | :43:18. | :43:21. | |
your employer. So if they tell you that you can't have time off, | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
there's no law to say they're wrong. Your four weeks of bereavement | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
leave... Wouldn't that be not enough for some people? Maybe used as a | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
negotiating tool by some others, which would then damage the genuine | :43:34. | :43:41. | |
cases? That's why I'm speaking now, about the death of a child. I have | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
heard employers tell me that they've had a 'great aunt' who has died five | :43:46. | :43:53. | |
times. All from the same person. So you do have the minority who ruin it | :43:54. | :43:56. | |
for everybody else. Everybody deals with grief differently. There is no | :43:57. | :44:00. | |
right way and no wrong way. I think there needs to be legislation to say | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
you have to give time off to grieve. There's a possibility of that coming | :44:05. | :44:07. | |
through the Children's and Families Bill. Would you support this, Ian? | :44:08. | :44:13. | |
Even though it's more regulation? Absolutely. It's a terrible | :44:14. | :44:18. | |
situation. All individuals. But particularly the death of a child. | :44:19. | :44:21. | |
It really affects people. I think you should negotiate with your | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
employer. Employers have to understand their employee. It's good | :44:26. | :44:32. | |
to support people. It's not bad having complete time off. Perhaps | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
getting back to work a little early. Having afternoons off. Being | :44:37. | :44:41. | |
sympathetic. It affects everybody in a different way. It's not always at | :44:42. | :44:47. | |
the time of the event. It can be after. For instance, I've just lost | :44:48. | :44:55. | |
my mother. I'd usually phone her and tell her not to miss the Sunday | :44:56. | :44:58. | |
Politics.. But I can't do that now. Little moments like that you miss. | :44:59. | :45:04. | |
That's when you remember. How clear should this guidance be? If you give | :45:05. | :45:10. | |
people paid leave for this, is it going too far? It can be hard for | :45:11. | :45:17. | |
small businesses. But I want to congratulate you on how far you've | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
got with this campaign. It's important that we talk as a nation | :45:22. | :45:27. | |
about this sort of issue. I think a key issue is flexible working. Lib | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
Dems have been pushing this. Soon we're going to extend it to all | :45:33. | :45:37. | |
people. So you have the right to ask your employer. If you're working, | :45:38. | :45:48. | |
and your life circumstances change ` something that messes up the balance | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
` we want you to be allowed to ask your employer without fear of | :45:53. | :45:55. | |
prejudice. The other side is mental health. Talking about it with your | :45:56. | :46:05. | |
doctor. Not just automatically taking a pill. David Cameron | :46:06. | :46:12. | |
referred to his own experience. He said colleagues covered for him. He | :46:13. | :46:18. | |
said he needed a couple of weeks to stand back, and see where he was. | :46:19. | :46:26. | |
But it can come completely out of the blue. It could be more than two | :46:27. | :46:31. | |
weeks that you need? I think a good module to compare it to is paternity | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
leave. You don't have to take it all in one go. Some people find they | :46:37. | :46:42. | |
need to go back to work straightaway, to get their mind off | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
it. But it doesn't matter with grief. It will affect you at some | :46:47. | :46:52. | |
point. Six months down the line people can think you'll be over it. | :46:53. | :47:02. | |
But that's a crucial time. You should be able to go to your | :47:03. | :47:05. | |
employer and say you're not doing very well. Can you help? Sadly, they | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
might turn around and say they can't. That's why it's so important | :47:11. | :47:16. | |
to have it legislated. People of the future can hopefully take the time | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
off because they're entitled to it. It's good to have you back. Give us | :47:21. | :47:26. | |
some news! I remember you saying one of your family members was a | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
Suffragette. Absolutely! It's in my blood! You'll be going back until | :47:31. | :47:37. | |
they sort it out? I will keep chipping away, even if it takes the | :47:38. | :47:43. | |
rest of my life. Super. This week, the Home Affairs Select | :47:44. | :47:46. | |
Committee announced it was launching an investigation into female genital | :47:47. | :47:48. | |
mutilation to establish why there have been no prosecutions in the UK. | :47:49. | :47:56. | |
This is despite the fact that tens of thousands of women are reckoned | :47:57. | :47:59. | |
to have suffered the 'cutting' and 'stitching' that until now has been | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
more common in African and Middle Eastern countries. The victims could | :48:04. | :48:18. | |
be closer than we might think. FGM has been illegal in the UK since | :48:19. | :48:23. | |
1985. Despite that, it's estimated 20,000 girls could fall victim every | :48:24. | :48:29. | |
year. The NHS says it is happening here, in places like Crawley, | :48:30. | :48:35. | |
Reading, Slough and Oxford. I was nine. I was approached by my nanny. | :48:36. | :48:41. | |
She said there is something I have to tell you, that you need to do. I | :48:42. | :48:49. | |
was imagining how deformed I might be... What Abigail was told to do to | :48:50. | :48:55. | |
herself as a child in Zimbabwe is one of the least severe forms of | :48:56. | :49:09. | |
FGM. I remember the pain. I said I'm not going to do this. Even if it | :49:10. | :49:18. | |
means she might get angry. It was so painful. FGM has come to the UK with | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
migrant communities. It's prevalent in Africa, the Middle East and Asia. | :49:25. | :49:36. | |
Abigail believes local` level campaigning is key, and focuses her | :49:37. | :49:39. | |
efforts on Oxfordshire. Some people think it still has to be passed on. | :49:40. | :49:51. | |
They think it is culture. But it is just a habit certain people have | :49:52. | :50:00. | |
accepted, despite its dangers. An NHS video explains some of the | :50:01. | :50:05. | |
effects. The procedures are generally not done by medical | :50:06. | :50:11. | |
personnel. They're done in unsterile, unsanitary conditions. | :50:12. | :50:26. | |
There is damage to genital organs and surrounding organs. It can lead | :50:27. | :50:29. | |
to infection. It can also cause damage to pregnancies and have | :50:30. | :50:32. | |
long`term emotional distress. Some people are always mentally affected | :50:33. | :50:39. | |
because of what they went through. People caught practising face a | :50:40. | :50:48. | |
fine, or 14 years in prison. But there's never yet been a successful | :50:49. | :50:54. | |
prosecution. In the last four years, Thames Valley Police has recorded a | :50:55. | :51:01. | |
grand total of nine cases. It will be made a priority in the | :51:02. | :51:04. | |
forthcoming update of the area's crime plan. I'm worried about it in | :51:05. | :51:11. | |
certain communities. It's high time we had a prosecution. But it's very | :51:12. | :51:18. | |
difficult. Other organisations like the NHS have to come forward, report | :51:19. | :51:23. | |
things and help. We won't find it ourselves. The government has its | :51:24. | :51:27. | |
own action plan. It includes this statement, for girls to carry with | :51:28. | :51:31. | |
them, and a ?50,000 fund to support victims. If the government work with | :51:32. | :51:40. | |
communities, it will be easy to put in place procedures. They will know | :51:41. | :51:49. | |
where to go. They will know they are in safe hands. For now, FGM remains | :51:50. | :52:01. | |
a devastating, but hidden crime. It is not a medical procedure. It | :52:02. | :52:07. | |
doesn't add any value to any woman's life. It is child abuse. Violence | :52:08. | :52:17. | |
against women. You've got to wonder why any parent thinks that's the | :52:18. | :52:20. | |
right thing for their children. Abigail was nine years old. It | :52:21. | :52:29. | |
happens to up to 98% of some girls in some countries. Is it a mistake | :52:30. | :52:38. | |
about fertility... Something like that? It's horrific. It doesn't add, | :52:39. | :52:45. | |
in any way, to the health of women. Unlike male circumcision, which can | :52:46. | :52:50. | |
sometimes help. It's a key point. It's cultural. With circumcision, | :52:51. | :53:01. | |
some doctors would disagree. It's not a direct parallel? Absolutely | :53:02. | :53:12. | |
not. But we are committed to getting rid of FGM. Not just at home but | :53:13. | :53:20. | |
abroad as well. That's tough talk. It will take a lot of coordination. | :53:21. | :53:25. | |
Is it right that we try to tell another culture... Yes. These are | :53:26. | :53:30. | |
people who live in places like Oxfordshire. We've set up a | :53:31. | :53:41. | |
multi`agency hub ` we've got police, social workers... All working | :53:42. | :53:50. | |
together. We want to stop this. We need to make sure schools are aware | :53:51. | :53:55. | |
of what the signs are so they can alert people. This is a barbaric | :53:56. | :54:05. | |
thing. We've got to do something. It's illegal. Confidentiality in the | :54:06. | :54:19. | |
NHS ` we may have to look at that. We have to protect people. Social | :54:20. | :54:28. | |
workers are being trained. School teachers as well. It has to be | :54:29. | :54:41. | |
stopped. It can't go on. This is why I'm so disturbed by cuts in local | :54:42. | :54:46. | |
government. Early Intervention Centres are looking for this type of | :54:47. | :54:53. | |
abuse. It's not just about a campaign to make people aware. It's | :54:54. | :54:57. | |
about having professionals able to deal with it. We can't tackle this | :54:58. | :55:08. | |
just in England. It has to be an international level, with | :55:09. | :55:15. | |
cooperation. Most of the governments we work with also have laws against | :55:16. | :55:23. | |
it. Prosecution would send a wider message, to say we won't tolerate | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
it? In this country it's illegal. Ideally, you don't want to | :55:29. | :55:31. | |
prosecute. You want it stopped altogether. It can't be acceptable. | :55:32. | :55:42. | |
Everybody has to be alert. The multi`agency hub is looking for | :55:43. | :55:51. | |
signs. It's still a priority despite the budget cuts. Yes. Thank you. | :55:52. | :56:04. | |
Time now for our regular round up of the political week in the South. | :56:05. | :56:14. | |
Plenty on the menu. It was revealed that Dorset school meals are being | :56:15. | :56:17. | |
transported 200 miles each day from Nottingham. Dorset County Council | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
say they had some reservations about a long`distance contract, but insist | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
it's working. At off`licences in Portsmouth, super | :56:27. | :56:29. | |
strength cider and beer has been taken off the shelves. The voluntary | :56:30. | :56:35. | |
initiative to cut down on drunkenness is a joint plan between | :56:36. | :56:39. | |
the council and police. It's not just about dealing with the cause | :56:40. | :56:42. | |
but also offering those with alcohol dependency other areas for support. | :56:43. | :56:47. | |
A u`turn on Ghurkha pensions meant this man from Reading got his first | :56:48. | :56:53. | |
food in two weeks. He stopped his hunger strike when a government | :56:54. | :56:56. | |
inquiry was announced. Finally, New Forest MP Julian Lewis | :56:57. | :57:00. | |
made a meal of his question to the Prime Minister ` insisting Lib Dems | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
must not veto new nuclear weapons. I don't think I would satisfy my | :57:06. | :57:08. | |
friend completely, even if I gave him a nuclear submarine to park off | :57:09. | :57:18. | |
the coast of his constituency. He's asked used that joke before... It's | :57:19. | :57:27. | |
a good joke! Plenty to get your teeth into. This school meals story | :57:28. | :57:37. | |
is remarkable. What happens in Oxfordshire? There's a scheme going | :57:38. | :57:44. | |
on which revolves around local produce. That's important. To bring | :57:45. | :57:52. | |
it from Nottingham... There are a lot of food miles involved there. | :57:53. | :57:55. | |
But you've got to get the best value? We have a policy coming in | :57:56. | :58:03. | |
that five to seven year olds will get free school meals. It's a nice | :58:04. | :58:16. | |
policy but over the years there are a lot of schools that don't have | :58:17. | :58:30. | |
kitchens. Will there be the funding? It would be better if it was local. | :58:31. | :58:37. | |
My constituents care about green issues. The more people having these | :58:38. | :58:42. | |
meals, the more likelihood there is we can come together. If you don't | :58:43. | :58:51. | |
get money for capital investment, will it be a struggle? Yes. It could | :58:52. | :58:59. | |
result in cuts in other services. Rubbish! If it's not fully funded, | :59:00. | :59:19. | |
there's a direct linkage. We would have to pick up the tab. Will the | :59:20. | :59:28. | |
Lib Dems provide all the funding so it can be cooked on the premises? I | :59:29. | :59:32. | |
think you're putting the cart before the horse. ?400 a year is a good | :59:33. | :59:40. | |
amount of money for a lot of people. It destigmatises school meals. It's | :59:41. | :59:49. | |
a good policy. As long as it's fully funded. Thank you for your | :59:50. | :59:57. | |
contribution. Thanks to my guests Layla Moran and | :59:58. | :00:03. | |
Ian Hudspeth. Here's the link to my blog. For now, back to Andrew. | :00:04. | :00:10. | |
those people who want to cycle. We will be returning to this one. Thank | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
you. A little bit of history was made at | :00:15. | :00:24. | |
Prime Minister's Questions this week. A teensy tiny bit. It wasn't | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
David Cameron accusing one MP of taking "mind-altering substances" - | :00:30. | :00:32. | |
they're always accusing each other of doing that. No, it was the first | :00:33. | :00:36. | |
time a Prime Minister used a live tweet sent from someone watching the | :00:37. | :00:38. | |
session as ammunition at the dispatch box. Let's have a look We | :00:39. | :00:47. | |
have had some interesting interventions from front edges past | :00:48. | :00:54. | |
and present. I hope I can break records by explaining that a tweet | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
has just come in from Tony McNulty, the former Labour security | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
minister, saying that the public are desperate for a PM in waiting who | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
speaks for them, not a Leader of the Opposition in dodging in partisan | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
Westminster Village knock about So I would stay up with the tweets if | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
you want to get on the right side of this one! We are working on how the | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
Prime Minister managed to get that wheat in the first place. What did | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
you think when you saw it being read out? I was certainly watching the | :01:26. | :01:31. | |
Daily Politics. I almost fell off my chair! It was quite astonishing He | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
didn't answer the question - he didn't do that the whole time. But I | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
stand by what the tweets said. I have tweeted for a long time on | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
PMQs. Normally I am praising Ed Miliband to the hilt, but no one | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
announces that in Parliament! Because the Prime Minister picked up | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
on what you said, it unleashed some attacks on you from the Labour side. | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
It did, minor attacks from some very junior people. Most people were | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
supportive of what I said. They took issue with the notion of not doing | :02:06. | :02:11. | |
it until 12:30pm, when it wasn't available for the other side to use. | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
Instant history, and instantly forgettable, I would say. Do you | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
think you have started a bit of a trend? I hope not, because the | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
dumbing down of PMQs is already on its way. Most people tweet like mad | :02:26. | :02:35. | |
through PMQs! Is a measure of how post-modern we have become, we have | :02:36. | :02:38. | |
journalists tweeting about someone talking about a tweet. That is the | :02:39. | :02:45. | |
level of British politics. I am horrified by this development. The | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
whole of modern life has become about observing people -- people | :02:49. | :02:54. | |
observing themselves doing things. Do we know what happened? Somebody | :02:55. | :03:00. | |
is monitoring the tweets on behalf of the Prime Minister or the Tory | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
party. They see Tony's tweet. They then print it out and give it to | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
him? There was a suggestion that Michael Goves had spotted it, but | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
Craig Oliver from the BBC had this great sort of... Craig Oliver was | :03:14. | :03:23. | |
holding up his iPad to take pictures of the Prime Minister, which he then | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
tweeted, from the Prime Minister. People will now be tweeting in the | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
hope that they will be quoted by the Prime Minister, or the Leader of the | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
Opposition. I wasn't doing that I'm just talking about the monster you | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
have unleashed! I hope it dies a miserable death. I think Tony is a | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
good analysis -- a good analyst of PMQs on Twitter. Moving onto the | :03:50. | :03:58. | |
Co-op. You were a Co-op-backed MP, white you? I was a Co-op party | :03:59. | :04:07. | |
member. There are two issues here about the Co-op and the Labour | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
Party. All the new music suggests that the Co-op will now have to | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
start pulling back from lending or donating to the Labour Party, which, | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
at a time when Mr Miliband is going through changes that are going to | :04:22. | :04:24. | |
cut of the union funds, it seems quite dangerous. There are three | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
things going on. There's the relationship that the party has | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
politically with the Co-op party, there is the commercial relationship | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
you referred to, and then there is this enquiry into the comings and | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
goings of Flowers and everybody else. The Tories, at their peril, | :04:43. | :04:50. | |
will mix the three up. There's a lot of things going on with a bang. | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
Labour has some issues around funding generally, and they are | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
potentially exacerbated by the Co-op issue. The Labour Party gets soft | :05:00. | :05:07. | |
loans from the Co-op bank, and it gets donations. ?800,000 last year. | :05:08. | :05:14. | |
Ed Balls got about ?50,000 for his private office. You get the feeling, | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
given the state of the Co-operative Bank now, that that money could dry | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
up. We will see. There's lots of speculation in the papers today At | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
the core, the relationship between the Co-op party and the Labour Party | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
is a proud one, and a legitimate one. I don't think others always | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
understand that. Here is an even bigger issue. Is it not possible | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
that the Co-op bank will cease to exist in any meaningful way as a | :05:44. | :05:50. | |
Co-op bank? Is the bane out means it is 70% owned -- the bail out means | :05:51. | :06:01. | |
that it is 70% owned, or 35% going to a hedge fund, I think I read | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
Yes, there is a move from the mutualism of the Co-op. But don t | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
confuse the Co-op bank with the Co-op Group. Others have done that. | :06:11. | :06:21. | |
I haven't. Here's the rub. The soft loans that Labour gets. They got | :06:22. | :06:29. | |
?1.2 million from this. And 2.4 million. They are secured against | :06:30. | :06:38. | |
future union membership fees of the party. What is Mr Miliband doing? He | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
is trying to end that? You have this very difficult confluence of events, | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
which is, could these wonderful soft loans that Labour has had from the | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
Co-op, could they be going? And these union reforms, where Ed | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
Miliband is trying to create a link between individuals and donations to | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
the Labour Party... Clearly, there could be real financial difficulties | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
here. The government needs to be careful, because George Osborne | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
launched one of his classic blunderbuss operations this week, | :07:12. | :07:14. | |
which is that the Labour Party is to blame for Paul Flowers' private | :07:15. | :07:21. | |
life. No, it's not. And that all the problems, essentially... Look at | :07:22. | :07:28. | |
what George Osborne was doing in Europe. He was trying to change the | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
capital requirement rules that would make it easier for the Co-op to take | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
over Lloyd's. If there is to be a big investigation, George Osborne | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
needs to be careful of what he wishes for. This is another example | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
of the Westminster consensus. All of the Westminster parties were in | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
favour of the Britannia takeover. This is how the Co-op ended up with | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
all this toxic rubbish on its balance sheet. All the major parties | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
were in favour of going to get the Lloyds branches. The Tories tried to | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
outdo Labour in being more pro-Co-op. There was nobody in | :08:02. | :08:09. | |
Westminster saying, hold on, this doesn't work. It is like the | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
financial bubble all over again Everyone was in favour of that at | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
the time. I think there is no evidence so far that the storm is | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
cutting through to the average voter. If I were Ed Miliband, I | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
would let it die a natural death. I would not write to an editorial | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
column for a national newspaper on a Sunday. That keeps the issue alive, | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
and it makes him look oversensitive and much better at dishing it out | :08:40. | :08:46. | |
than taking it. I agree about that. The Labour press team tweeted this | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
week saying that it was a new low for the times. And this was | :08:51. | :09:00. | |
re-tweeted by Ed Miliband. It isn't a great press attitude. It is very | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
Moni. Bill Clinton went out there and fought and made the case. So did | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
Tony Blair. If you just say, they are being horrible to us, it looks | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
pathetic. And it will cut through on Osborne and the financial | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
dimensional is, not political. I shall tweet that later! While we | :09:24. | :09:32. | |
have been talking, Mr Miliband has been on Desert Island Discs. He | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
might still be on it. Let's have a listen to what he had to say. | :09:39. | :09:46. | |
# Take on me, take me on. # And threw it all, she offers me | :09:47. | :09:57. | |
protection. # A lot of love and affection. | :09:58. | :10:09. | |
# Whether I'm right or wrong #. # Je Ne Regrette Rien. #. | :10:10. | :10:25. | |
Obviously, that was the music that Ed Miliband chose. Who thought - | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
you would have thought he would choose Norman Lamont's theme tune! | :10:32. | :10:40. | |
He chose Jerusalem... He has no classical background at all. He had | :10:41. | :10:51. | |
no Beethoven, no Elgar. David Cameron had Mendelssohn. And Ernie, | :10:52. | :10:59. | |
the fastest Notman in the West. -- fastest milkman. Tony Blair chose | :11:00. | :11:10. | |
the theme tune to a movie. Tony Blair's list was chosen by young | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
staffers in his office. It absolutely was. Tony Blair's list | :11:14. | :11:24. | |
was chosen by staff. The Ed Miliband this was clearly chosen by himself, | :11:25. | :11:27. | |
because who would allow politician to go out there and say that they | :11:28. | :11:38. | |
like Aha. I am the same age as Ed Miliband, and of course he likes | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
Aha. That was the tumour was played in the 80s. Sweet Caroline. It is | :11:43. | :11:53. | |
Angels by Robbie Williams. I was 14-year-old girl when that came out. | :11:54. | :12:01. | |
I thought Angels was the staple of hen nights and chucking out time in | :12:02. | :12:08. | |
pubs. The really good thing about his list is that the Smiths to not | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
appear. The Smiths were all over David Cameron's list. The absolutely | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
miserable music of Morris he was not there. What was his luxury? And | :12:18. | :12:26. | |
Indian takeaway! Again, chosen for political reasons. I would agree | :12:27. | :12:33. | |
with the panel about Aha, but I would expect -- I would respect his | :12:34. | :12:41. | |
right to choose. Have you been on Desert Island Discs? I have. It took | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
me three weeks to choose the music. It was the most difficult decision | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
in my life. What was the most embarrassing thing you chose? I | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
didn't choose anything embarrassing. I chose Beethoven, Elgar, and some | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
proper modern jazz. Anything from the modern era? Pet Shop Boys. | :13:01. | :13:13. | |
That's all for today. The Daily Politics will be on BBC Two at | :13:14. | :13:16. | |
lunchtime every day next week, and we'll be back here on BBC One at | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
11am next week. My luxury, by the way, was a wind-up radio! Remember, | :13:21. | :13:22. | |
if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:23. | :13:30. |