24/11/2013 Sunday Politics South


24/11/2013

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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:36.:00:40.

Labour's been hit hard by scandals at the Co-op. Ed Miliband says the

:00:41.:00:43.

Tories are mudslinging. We'll speak to Conservative Chairman Grant

:00:44.:00:46.

Shapps. Five years on from the financial

:00:47.:00:49.

crisis, and we're still talking about banks in trouble. Why haven't

:00:50.:00:52.

the regulators got the message? We'll ask the man who runs the

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City's new financial watchdog. And he used to have a windmill on

:00:59.:01:01.

his roof and talked about giving hugs to hoodies and huskies. These

:01:02.:01:05.

days, not so much. Has the plan to make the

:01:06.:01:09.

In the South: Children's Centres under threat of closure in

:01:10.:01:13.

Oxfordshire ` including one in the Prime Minister's own constituency.

:01:14.:01:14.

What are they playing at? warned that benefit falls will be to

:01:15.:01:19.

homelessness and population ships. What is the evidence?

:01:20.:01:26.

And as always, the political panel that reaches the parts other shows

:01:27.:01:31.

can only dream of. Janan Ganesh Helen Lewis and Nick Watt. They ll

:01:32.:01:34.

be tweeting faster than England loses wickets to Australia. Yes

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they're really that fast. First, some big news overnight from

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Geneva, where Iran has agreed to curb some of its nuclear activities

:01:43.:01:45.

in return for the partial easing of sanctions. Iran will pause the

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enrichment of uranium to weapons grade and America will free up some

:01:50.:02:00.

funds for Iran to spend. May be up to $10 billion. A more comprehensive

:02:01.:02:03.

deal is supposed to be done in six months. Here's what President Obama

:02:04.:02:06.

had to say about this interim agreement. We have pursued intensive

:02:07.:02:14.

diplomacy, bilaterally with the Iranians, and together with our

:02:15.:02:19.

partners, the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Russia and China,

:02:20.:02:23.

as well as the European Union. Today, that diplomacy opened up a

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new path towards a world that is more secure, a future in which we

:02:30.:02:35.

can verify that Iraq and's nuclear programme is peaceful, and that it

:02:36.:02:41.

cannot build a nuclear weapon. President Obama spoke from the White

:02:42.:02:45.

House last night. Now the difficulty begins. This is meant to lead to a

:02:46.:02:51.

full-scale agreement which will effectively end all sanctions, and

:02:52.:02:57.

end Iran's ability to have a bomb. The early signs are pretty good The

:02:58.:03:00.

Iranian currency strengthened overnight, which is exactly what the

:03:01.:03:06.

Iranians wanted. Inflation in Iraq is 40%, so they need a stronger

:03:07.:03:13.

currency. -- information in Iran. France has played a blinder. It was

:03:14.:03:18.

there intransigence that led to this. Otherwise, I think the West

:03:19.:03:21.

would have led to a much softer deal. The question now becomes

:03:22.:03:27.

implementation. Here, everything hinges on two questions. First, who

:03:28.:03:33.

is Hassan Rouhani? Is he the Iranians Gorbachev, a serious

:03:34.:03:38.

reformer, or he's here much more tactical and cynical figure? Or

:03:39.:03:44.

within Iran, how powerful is he There are military men and

:03:45.:03:47.

intelligence officials within Iran who may stymie the process. The

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Western media concentrate on the fact that Mr Netanyahu and the

:03:55.:03:58.

Israelis are not happy about this. They don't often mention that the

:03:59.:04:04.

Arab Gulf states are also very apprehensive about this deal. I read

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this morning that the enemies of Qatar and Kuwait went to Saudi king.

:04:10.:04:20.

-- the MAs row. That is the key thing to watch in the next couple of

:04:21.:04:25.

weeks. There was a response from Saudi Arabia, but it came from the

:04:26.:04:29.

Prime Minister of Israel, who said this was a historic mistake. The

:04:30.:04:34.

United States said there would be no enrichment of uranium to weapons

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grade. In the last few minutes, the Iranian Foreign Minister has tweeted

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to say that there is an inalienable right -- right to enrich. The key

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thing is the most important thing that President Obama said in his

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inaugural speech. He reached out to Iran. It failed under President

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McKenna jab. Under President Rouhani, there seems to be progress.

:05:01.:05:07.

There is potentially now what he talked about in that first inaugural

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address potentially coming through. In the end, the key issue - and we

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don't know the answer - is the supreme leader, not the president.

:05:19.:05:22.

Will the supreme leader agreed to Iran giving up its ability to create

:05:23.:05:27.

nuclear weapons? This is the huge ambiguity. Ayatollah Khamenei

:05:28.:05:32.

authorise the position that President Rouhani took to Geneva.

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That doesn't mean he will sign off on every bit of implementation over

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the next six months. Even when President Ahmadinejad was president,

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he wasn't really President. We in the West have to resort to a kind of

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Iranians version of the study of the Kremlin, to work out what is going

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on. And the problem the president faces is that if there is any

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sign... He can unlock these funds by executive order at the moment, but

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if he needs any more, he has to go to Congress. Both the Democrat and

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the Republican side have huge scepticism about this. And he has

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very low credibility now. There s already been angry noises coming

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from quite a lot of senators. It was quite strange to see that photo of

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John Kerry hugging Cathy Ashton as if they had survived a ship great

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together. John Kerry is clearly feeling very happy. We will keep an

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eye on this. It is a fascinating development.

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More lurid details about the personal life of the Co-op Bank s

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disgraced former chairman, the Reverend Paul Flowers. The links

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between Labour, the bank and the wider Co-op movement have caused big

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problems for Ed Miliband this week, and the Conservatives have been

:07:05.:07:09.

revelling in it. But do the Tory allegations - Ed Miliband calls them

:07:10.:07:12.

"smears" - stack up? Party Chairman Grant Shapps joins us from Hatfield.

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Welcome to the programme. When it comes to the Co-op, what are you

:07:23.:07:31.

accusing Labour of knowing and when? I think the simple thing to say here

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is that the Co-op is an important bank. They have obviously got into

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difficulty with Reverend flowers, and our primary concern is making

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sure that that is properly investigated, and that we understand

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what happened at the bank and how somebody like Paul Flowers could

:07:49.:07:51.

have ended up thing appointed chairman. You wrote to edge Miliband

:07:52.:07:56.

on Tuesday and asked him what he knew and when. -- you wrote to Ed

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Miliband. But by Prime Minister s Questions on Wednesday, David

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Cameron claims that you knew that Labour knew about his past all

:08:08.:08:14.

along. What is the evidence for that? We found out by Wednesday that

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he had been a Labour councillor Reverend Flowers, and had been made

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to stand down. Certainly, Labour knew about that, but somehow didn't

:08:27.:08:30.

seem to think that that made him less appropriate to be the chairman

:08:31.:08:37.

of the Co-op bank. There was no evidence that Mr Miliband or Mr

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Balls knew about that. I ask you again, what are you accusing the

:08:44.:08:48.

Labour leadership of knowing? We know now that he stood down for very

:08:49.:08:57.

inappropriate images on his computer, apparently. You are

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telling me that they didn't know. I am not sure that is clear at all. I

:09:01.:09:05.

have heard conflicting reports. There is a much bigger argument

:09:06.:09:09.

about what they knew and when. There was a much bigger issue here. This

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morning, Ed Miliband has said that they don't have to answer these

:09:16.:09:19.

questions and that these smears This is ludicrous. These are

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important questions about an important bank, how it ended up

:09:23.:09:26.

getting into this position, and how a disastrous Britannia -- Italia

:09:27.:09:33.

deal happen. -- Britannia deal happened. And we need to know how

:09:34.:09:40.

the bank came off the rails. To be accused of smears for asking the

:09:41.:09:43.

questions is ridiculous. I am just trying to find out what you are

:09:44.:09:48.

accusing Labour of. You saying that the Labour leadership knew about the

:09:49.:09:54.

drug-taking? Sorry, there was some noise here. I don't know what was

:09:55.:10:03.

known and when. We do know that Labour, the party, certainly knew

:10:04.:10:07.

about these very difficult circumstances in which he resigned

:10:08.:10:12.

as a councillor. I think that the Labour Party knew about it. We knew

:10:13.:10:17.

that Bradford did, but not London. Are you saying that Ed Miliband knew

:10:18.:10:21.

about the inappropriate material on the Reverend's laptop? It is

:10:22.:10:26.

certainly the case that Labour knew about it. But did Mr Miliband know

:10:27.:10:33.

about it, and his predilection for rent boys? He will need to answer

:10:34.:10:40.

those questions. It is quite proper to ask those questions. Surely,

:10:41.:10:44.

asking a perfectly legitimate set of questions, not just about that but

:10:45.:10:49.

about how we have ended up in a situation where this bank has made

:10:50.:10:53.

loans to Labour for millions of pounds, that bank and the Unite

:10:54.:10:59.

bank, who is connected to it. And how they made a ?50,000 donation to

:11:00.:11:06.

Ed Balls' office. Ed Balls says that was nothing to do with Reverend

:11:07.:11:11.

Flowers, and yet Reverend Flowers said that he personally signed that

:11:12.:11:16.

off. Lots of questions to answer. David Cameron has already answered

:11:17.:11:20.

them on Wednesday. He said that you now know that Labour knew about his

:11:21.:11:26.

past all along. You have not been able to present evidence that

:11:27.:11:29.

involve Mr Miliband or Mr Balls in that. So until you get that, surely

:11:30.:11:35.

you should apologise? Hang on. He said that Labour knew about this,

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and they did, because he stood down as a councillor. If Ed Miliband

:11:40.:11:45.

didn't know about that, then why not? This was quite a serious thing

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that happened. The wider point is about why it is that when you ask

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perfectly legitimate questions about this bank, about the Britannia deal,

:11:55.:11:58.

and about the background of Mr flowers, why is the response, it is

:11:59.:12:08.

all smears? There are questions about how Labour failed to deal with

:12:09.:12:11.

the deficit and how it hasn't done anything to support the welfare

:12:12.:12:15.

changes, but there is nothing about that. Let us -- lets: To the wider

:12:16.:12:24.

picture of the Co-operative Bank. Labour wanted the Co-op to take over

:12:25.:12:32.

the Britannia Building Society, and it was a disaster. Do you accept

:12:33.:12:37.

that? The government of the day has to be a part of these discussions

:12:38.:12:44.

for regulatory reason. The government in 2009 - Ed Balls was

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very pleased... But you supported that decision. There was a later

:12:50.:12:55.

deal, potentially, for the Co-op to buy those Lloyds branches. There was

:12:56.:13:00.

a proper process and it didn't go through just recently. If there had

:13:01.:13:08.

been a proper process back in 2 09, would the Britannia deal have gone

:13:09.:13:14.

through? First, you accept that the Tories were in favour of the

:13:15.:13:19.

Britannia take over. Then your Chancellor Osborne went out of his

:13:20.:13:23.

way to facilitate the purchase of the Lloyds branches, even though you

:13:24.:13:26.

had no idea that the Co-op had the management expertise to become a

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super medium. Correct? The difference is that that deal didn't

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go through. There was a proper process that took place. Let's look

:13:41.:13:47.

at the process. There was long indications as far back as January

:13:48.:13:53.

2012 that the Co-op, as a direct result of the Britannia take over

:13:54.:13:58.

which you will party supported, was unfit to acquire the Lloyds

:13:59.:14:02.

branches. By January 2012, the Chancellor and the Treasury ignored

:14:03.:14:09.

the warnings. Wide? In 2009, there was political pressure for the

:14:10.:14:12.

Britannia to be brought together. Based on the information available,

:14:13.:14:17.

this was supported, but that process ended up with a very, very

:14:18.:14:20.

problematic takeover of the Britannia. Wind forward to this

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year, and when the same types of issues were being looked at for the

:14:27.:14:29.

purchase of the Lloyds deal, the proper process was followed, this

:14:30.:14:34.

time with us in government, and that purchase didn't go through. It is

:14:35.:14:38.

important that the proper process is followed, and when it was, it

:14:39.:14:41.

transpired that the deal wasn't going to be done. But it was the

:14:42.:14:51.

Treasury and the Chancellor who were the cheerleaders for the acquisition

:14:52.:14:56.

of the Lloyds branches. But there was a warning that the Co-op did not

:14:57.:15:00.

have enough capital on its balance sheet to make those acquisitions,

:15:01.:15:03.

but instead of heeding those warnings, your people went to

:15:04.:15:09.

Brussels to lobby for the requirements to be relaxed - why on

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earth did you do that? Our Chancellor went to argue for all of

:15:15.:15:18.

Rajesh banking, not specifically for the Co-op. He was arguing for the

:15:19.:15:23.

mutuals to be given a special ruling. The idea was to make sure

:15:24.:15:28.

that every bank in Britain could have a better deal, particularly the

:15:29.:15:34.

mutuals, as you say. That is a proper thing for the Chancellor to

:15:35.:15:37.

be doing. We could go round in circles here, but in the end, there

:15:38.:15:41.

was not a takeover of the Lloyds branches, that is because we

:15:42.:15:45.

followed a proper process. Had that same rigorous process been followed

:15:46.:15:50.

in 2009, the legitimate question to ask is whether the Co-op would have

:15:51.:15:54.

been -- would have taken over the Britannia. That is a proper question

:15:55.:15:58.

to ask. It is no good to have the leader of the opposition say, as

:15:59.:16:02.

soon as you ask any of these questions about anything where there

:16:03.:16:05.

is a problem for them, they come back with, oh, this is all smears.

:16:06.:16:10.

There are questions to ask about what the Labour government did, the

:16:11.:16:13.

debt and the deficit they left the country with, the way they stopped

:16:14.:16:19.

work from paying in this country. The big question your government has

:16:20.:16:23.

two answer is, why, by July 201 , when it was clear there was a black

:16:24.:16:27.

hole in the Co-op's balance sheet, your government re-confirmed the

:16:28.:16:32.

Co-op as the preferred bidder for Lloyds - why would you do that?

:16:33.:16:37.

Well, look, the good thing is, we can discuss this until the cows come

:16:38.:16:41.

home, but there is going to be a proper, full investigation, so we

:16:42.:16:45.

will find out what happened, all the way back. So, we will be able to get

:16:46.:16:50.

to the bottom of all of this. Grant Shapps, the only reason the Lloyds

:16:51.:16:54.

deal did not go ahead was, despite the Treasury cheerleading, when

:16:55.:17:00.

Lloyds began its due diligence, it found that there was indeed a huge

:17:01.:17:02.

black hole in the balance sheet and that the Co-op was not fit to take

:17:03.:17:08.

over its branches. That wasn't you, it wasn't the Government, it was not

:17:09.:17:13.

the Chancellor, it was Lloyds. You were still cheerleading for the deal

:17:14.:17:19.

to go ahead... Well, as I say, a proper process was followed, which

:17:20.:17:23.

did not result in the purchase of the Lloyds branches. At that proper

:17:24.:17:27.

process been followed with the purchase of the Britannia, under the

:17:28.:17:32.

previous government... Which you supported. Yes, but it may well be

:17:33.:17:37.

that under that previous deal, there was a excess political pressure

:17:38.:17:40.

perhaps put on in order to create that merger, which proved so

:17:41.:17:49.

disastrous. The Tories facilitated it, Grant Shapps, they allowed it to

:17:50.:17:54.

go ahead. I have said, we are going to have a proper, independent

:17:55.:17:58.

review. What I cannot understand is, when you announce a robber,

:17:59.:18:02.

independent review, the response you get to these serious questions. The

:18:03.:18:08.

response is, oh, this is a smear. It is crazy. We are trying to answer

:18:09.:18:14.

the big questions for this country. We have done all of that, and we are

:18:15.:18:23.

out of time. The Reverend Flowers' chairmanship of the Co-op bank was

:18:24.:18:26.

approved by the regulator at the time, which no longer exists. It was

:18:27.:18:31.

swept away by the coalition government in a supposed revolution

:18:32.:18:36.

in regulation. But will its replacement, the Financial Conduct

:18:37.:18:39.

Authority, be different? Adam has been to find out. Come with me for a

:18:40.:18:48.

spin around the Square mile to find out how we regulate our financial

:18:49.:18:53.

sector, which is almost five times bigger than the country's entire

:18:54.:18:58.

annual income. First, let's pick up our guide, journalist Iain Martin,

:18:59.:19:03.

who has just written a book about what went so wrong during the

:19:04.:19:09.

financial crisis. The FSA was an agency which was established to

:19:10.:19:11.

supervise the banks on a day-to day basis. The Bank of England was

:19:12.:19:16.

supposed to have overall responsible at for this to Bolivia the financial

:19:17.:19:19.

system and the Treasury was supposed to take an interest in all of these

:19:20.:19:24.

things. The disaster was that it was not anyone's call responsibility, or

:19:25.:19:30.

main day job, to stay alert as to whether or not the banking system as

:19:31.:19:33.

a whole was being run in a safe manner. And so this April, a new

:19:34.:19:37.

system was set up to police the City. Most of the responsibly delays

:19:38.:19:47.

here, with the Bank of England, and its new Prudential Regulation

:19:48.:19:50.

Authority. And the Financial Services Authority has been replaced

:19:51.:19:54.

with the new Financial Conduct Authority. Can we go to the

:19:55.:20:00.

financial conduct authority, please? Canary Wharf, thank you. Here, it is

:20:01.:20:05.

all about whether the people in financial services are playing by

:20:06.:20:08.

the rules, in particular, how they treat their customers. This place

:20:09.:20:14.

has got new powers, like the ability to ban products it does not like, a

:20:15.:20:17.

new mandate to promote competition in the market, the concept being,

:20:18.:20:21.

more competition means a better market, plus the idea that a new

:20:22.:20:26.

organisation rings a whole new culture. Although these are the old

:20:27.:20:33.

offices of the FSA, so maybe not quite so new after all. It has also

:20:34.:20:38.

inherited the case of the Co-op bank and its disgraced former chairman

:20:39.:20:42.

the Reverend Paul Flowers. The SCA will be part of the investigation

:20:43.:20:45.

into what happened, which will probably involve looking at its own

:20:46.:20:50.

conduct. One member of the Parliamentary commission into

:20:51.:20:54.

banking wonders whether the new regulator, and its new boss, are up

:20:55.:20:59.

to it. I have always said, it is not the architecture which is the issue,

:21:00.:21:04.

it is the powers that the regulator has, and today, it does not seem to

:21:05.:21:08.

me as if there is any increase in that. And with the unfolding scandal

:21:09.:21:14.

at the Co-op, it feels like the new architecture for regulating the City

:21:15.:21:21.

is now facing its first big test. And the chief executive of the

:21:22.:21:24.

Financial Conduct Authority, the SCA, Martin Wheatley, joins me now.

:21:25.:21:30.

Welcome to The Sunday Politics. The failure of bank regulation was one

:21:31.:21:33.

of the clearest lessons of the crash in 2008, and yet two years later, in

:21:34.:21:39.

2010, Paul Flowers is allowed to become chairman of the Co-op - why

:21:40.:21:45.

have we still not got the regulation right? We have made a lot of changes

:21:46.:21:49.

since then. We have created a new regulator, as you know. At the time,

:21:50.:21:53.

we still had a process which allowed somebody to be appointed to a bank

:21:54.:21:57.

and they would go through a challenge, but in the case of Paul

:21:58.:22:01.

Flowers, there was no need for an additional challenge when he was

:22:02.:22:03.

appointed to chairman, because he was already on the board. But going

:22:04.:22:10.

from being on the board to becoming chairman, that is a big jump, and he

:22:11.:22:15.

only had one interview? That is why today, it would be different. But

:22:16.:22:19.

the truth is, that was the system at the time, the system which the FSA

:22:20.:22:24.

operated. He was challenged, we did challenge him, and we said, you do

:22:25.:22:28.

not have the right experience, but at the time, we would not have

:22:29.:22:32.

opposed the appointment. What we needed was additional representation

:22:33.:22:35.

of the board of people who did have banking experience. You can say that

:22:36.:22:40.

that was then and this is now, but up until April of this year, it was

:22:41.:22:44.

still the plan for the Co-op, under Mr Flowers, and despite being

:22:45.:22:48.

seriously wounded by the Britannia takeover, to take on 632 Lloyds

:22:49.:22:54.

branches. That was the Co-op's plan. They needed to pass our test

:22:55.:22:58.

as to whether we thought they were fit to do that, and frankly, they

:22:59.:23:02.

never passed that test. It was not the regulator that stopped them It

:23:03.:23:07.

was. We were constantly pushing back, saying, you have not got the

:23:08.:23:11.

capital, you have no got the systems, and ultimately, they

:23:12.:23:13.

withdrew, when they could not answer our questions. You were asking the

:23:14.:23:19.

right questions, I accept that, but all of the time, the politicians on

:23:20.:23:24.

all sides, they were pushing for it to happen, and I cannot find

:23:25.:23:28.

anywhere where the regulator said, look, this is just not going to

:23:29.:23:34.

happen. I cannot comment on what the politicians were doing, but I

:23:35.:23:37.

continue what we were doing, which was constantly asking the Co-op

:23:38.:23:40.

have you got the systems in place, have you got the people, have you

:23:41.:23:45.

got the capital? And they didn't. But it only came to a head when

:23:46.:23:48.

Lloyds started its own due diligence on the bank, and they discovered

:23:49.:23:52.

that it was impossible for them to take over the branches, it was not

:23:53.:23:57.

the regulator... In fairness, what we do is ask the questions, can you

:23:58.:24:02.

do this deal? And we kept pushing back, and we never frankly got

:24:03.:24:06.

delivered a business plan which we were happy to approve. Is the SCA

:24:07.:24:13.

going to launch its own inquiry into what happened? -- the FCA. The

:24:14.:24:24.

Chancellor has announced what will be a very broad inquiry. There are a

:24:25.:24:29.

number of specifics which we will be able to look at, relating to events

:24:30.:24:34.

over the last five years. Could there be a police investigation I

:24:35.:24:38.

think the police have already announced an investigation. I am

:24:39.:24:42.

talking about into the handling of the bank. It depends. There might

:24:43.:24:46.

be, if there is grim low activity, which we do not know yet. You worked

:24:47.:24:55.

at the FS eight, didn't you? I did. Some of those people who were signed

:24:56.:25:02.

off on the speedy promotion of Mr Flowers, are they now working

:25:03.:25:08.

there? Yes, we have some. I came to join the Financial Services

:25:09.:25:11.

Authority, to lead it into the creation of the new body, the SCA.

:25:12.:25:17.

We had people who were challenging and they did the job. There was not

:25:18.:25:28.

a requirement to approve the role as chairman. There was not even a

:25:29.:25:31.

requirement to interview at that stage. What we did do was to require

:25:32.:25:36.

that he was interviewed, and that the Co-op should get additional

:25:37.:25:48.

experience. One of the people from the old organisation, who signed up

:25:49.:25:53.

on the promotion of Mr Flowers to become chairman is now a

:25:54.:25:55.

nonexecutive director of the Co op, so how does that work? Welcome he

:25:56.:26:03.

was a senior adviser to our organisation, one of the people who

:26:04.:26:06.

made the challenges, and who said, you need more experience on your

:26:07.:26:11.

board. Subsequently he then went and joined the board. Surely that should

:26:12.:26:15.

not be allowed, the regulator and the regulated should not be like

:26:16.:26:20.

that. Well clearly, you need protection, but we have got to get

:26:21.:26:25.

good people in, and frankly, we want the industry to have good people in

:26:26.:26:28.

the industry, so there will be some movement between the regulator and

:26:29.:26:33.

industry. We all wonder whether you have the power or even the

:26:34.:26:36.

confidence to stand up if you look at all of the really bad bank

:26:37.:26:40.

decisions recently, politicians were behind them. It was Gordon Brown who

:26:41.:26:44.

pushed the disastrous merger of Lloyds and RBS. It was Alex Salmond

:26:45.:26:49.

who egged on RBS to buy the world. All three main parties wanted the

:26:50.:26:54.

Co-op to buy Britannia, even though they did not know the debt it would

:26:55.:26:58.

inherit, and all three wanted the Co-op to buy the Lloyds branches -

:26:59.:27:01.

how do you as a regulator stand up to that little concert party? Well,

:27:02.:27:07.

that political pressure exists, our job at the end of the day is to do a

:27:08.:27:11.

relatively technical job and say, does it stack up? And it didn't and

:27:12.:27:16.

we made that point time and time again to the Co-op board. They did

:27:17.:27:19.

not have a business case that we could approve. The bodies on left

:27:20.:27:23.

and right -- the politicians on left and right gave the Co-op special

:27:24.:27:30.

support. They may have done, but that was not you have made a warning

:27:31.:27:37.

about these payday lenders, but I think what most people would like to

:27:38.:27:41.

see is a limit put on the interest they can charge over a period of

:27:42.:27:45.

time - will you do that? We have got a whole set of powers for payday

:27:46.:27:50.

lenders. We will bring in some changes from April next year, and we

:27:51.:27:54.

will bring in further changes as we see necessary. Will you put a limit

:27:55.:27:57.

on the interest they can charge That is something we can study. You

:27:58.:28:03.

do not sound too keen on it? Well, there are a lot of changes we need

:28:04.:28:08.

to make. One change is limiting rollovers, limiting the use of

:28:09.:28:11.

continuous payment authorities. Simply jumping to one trigger would

:28:12.:28:16.

be a mistake. Finally, an issue which I think is becoming a growing

:28:17.:28:20.

concern, because the Government is thinking of subsidising them, 9 %

:28:21.:28:25.

mortgages are back - should we not be worried about that? I think we

:28:26.:28:30.

should if the market has the same experiences that we had back in 2007

:28:31.:28:34.

- oh wait. We are bringing a comprehensive package in under our

:28:35.:28:39.

mortgage market review, which will change how people lend and will put

:28:40.:28:43.

affordability back at the heart of lending decisions. -- 2007-08. You

:28:44.:28:54.

have not had your first big challenge yet, have you? We have

:28:55.:28:56.

many challenges. It was once called the battle of the

:28:57.:29:05.

mods and the rockers - the fight between David Cameron-style

:29:06.:29:07.

modernisers and old-style traditional Tories for the direction

:29:08.:29:10.

and soul of the Conservative Party. But have the mods given up on

:29:11.:29:17.

changing the brand? When David Cameron took over in 2005, he

:29:18.:29:22.

promoted himself as a new Tory leader. He said that hoodies need

:29:23.:29:26.

more love. He was talking about something called the big society. He

:29:27.:29:33.

told his party conference that it was time to that sunshine win the

:29:34.:29:37.

day. There was new emphasis on the environment, and an eye-catching

:29:38.:29:41.

trip to a Norwegian glacier to see first-hand, supposedly, the effects

:29:42.:29:47.

of global warming. This week, party modernise and Nick bone has said

:29:48.:29:51.

that the party is still seen as an old-fashioned monolith and hasn t

:29:52.:29:55.

done enough to improve its appeal. The Tories have put some reforms

:29:56.:30:04.

into practice, such as gay marriage, but they have put more into welfare

:30:05.:30:09.

reform band compassionate conservatism. David Cameron wants

:30:10.:30:13.

talked about leading the greenest government ever. Downing Street says

:30:14.:30:21.

that the quote in the Son is not recognised, get rid of the green

:30:22.:30:28.

crap. At this point in the programme we were expecting to hear from the

:30:29.:30:31.

Energy and Climate Change Minister, Greg Barker. Unfortunately, he has

:30:32.:30:33.

pulled out, with Downing Street saying it's for ""family reasons"".

:30:34.:30:40.

Make of that what you will. However, we won't be deterred. We're still

:30:41.:30:45.

doing the story, and we're joined by our very own mod and rocker - David

:30:46.:30:48.

Skelton of the think-tank Renewal, and Conservative MP Peter Bone.

:30:49.:30:54.

Welcome to you both. I'm glad your family is allowed you to come? David

:30:55.:30:59.

Skelton, getting rid of all the green crap, or words to that effect,

:31:00.:31:04.

that David Cameron has been saying. It is just a sign that Tory

:31:05.:31:07.

modernisation has been quietly buried. I do think that's right

:31:08.:31:13.

Modernisation is about reaching out to the voters, and the work to do

:31:14.:31:18.

that is now more relevant than ever. We got the biggest swing since 931,

:31:19.:31:23.

and the thing is we need to do more to reach out to voters in the North.

:31:24.:31:28.

We need to reach out to non-white voters, and show that the concerns

:31:29.:31:37.

of modern Britain and the concerns of ordinary people is something that

:31:38.:31:41.

we share. And what way will racking up electricity bills with green

:31:42.:31:45.

levies get you more votes in the North of England? We have to look at

:31:46.:31:51.

ways to reduce energy bills. The renewable energy directive doesn't

:31:52.:31:54.

do anything to help cut our emissions, but does decrease energy

:31:55.:32:01.

bills by ?45 a year. We should renegotiate that. That is a part of

:32:02.:32:04.

modernisation and doing what ordinarily people want. And old

:32:05.:32:10.

dinosaurs like you are just holding this modernisation process back I

:32:11.:32:16.

am very appreciative of covering on this programme. The Tory party has

:32:17.:32:21.

been reforming itself for more than 150 years. This idea of modern eyes

:32:22.:32:25.

a is just some invention. We are changing all the time. I'm nice and

:32:26.:32:33.

cuddly! So you are happy that the party made gay marriage almost a

:32:34.:32:38.

kind of symbol of its modernisation? Fine Mac the gay marriage was a free

:32:39.:32:46.

vote. David Cameron was recorded as a rebel there because more Tories

:32:47.:32:50.

voted against his position than ever before. It was said that this was a

:32:51.:32:54.

split between the old and young but it actually was a split between

:32:55.:32:58.

those who were religious and nonreligious. It is a

:32:59.:33:02.

misinterpretation of what happened. Is a modernisation in retreat? I

:33:03.:33:10.

think modernisation is an invention. Seven years ago, in my

:33:11.:33:15.

part of the world, we got three councillors elected, two were 8 and

:33:16.:33:21.

one was 21. A few months ago, a 25-year-old was chosen to fight

:33:22.:33:25.

Corby for the Conservative Party. He came from a comprehensive School. He

:33:26.:33:31.

was one of the youngest. The Tory party is moving on. So you found

:33:32.:33:37.

three young people? Hang on a minute. You can't get away with

:33:38.:33:46.

that. Three in one batch. Does modernisation exist? Modernisation

:33:47.:33:51.

is about watering our appeal and sharing our values are relevant to

:33:52.:33:54.

voters who haven't really thought about voting for us for decades now.

:33:55.:33:59.

Modernisation is about more than windmills and stuff, it is about

:34:00.:34:03.

boosting the life chances of the poorest, it is about putting better

:34:04.:34:10.

schools in poorer areas. It is also saying that modernisation and the

:34:11.:34:15.

Tory party... When has the Tory party been against making poorer

:34:16.:34:20.

people better off? Or against better schools? Do you think Mrs Thatcher

:34:21.:34:24.

was a moderniser when she won all those elections? The problem we have

:34:25.:34:27.

at the moment is that UKIP has grown-up. If we could get all of

:34:28.:34:33.

those people who vote UKIP to vote for us, we would get 47% of the

:34:34.:34:38.

vote. We don't need to worry about voters on the left. We need to worry

:34:39.:34:43.

about the voters in the north, those people who haven't voted for us for

:34:44.:34:51.

decades. Having an EU Referendum Bill is going to get people to

:34:52.:34:57.

vote. We have to reach out to voters, but not by some sort of

:34:58.:35:01.

London based in need. You have to broaden your base. I agree with you

:35:02.:35:07.

on that. We have to broaden our appeal, but this back to the future

:35:08.:35:10.

concept is not going to work. We need something that generally

:35:11.:35:15.

appeals to low and middle-income voters, and something that shows we

:35:16.:35:17.

genuinely care about the life genuinely care about the life

:35:18.:35:22.

chances of the poorest. Do you think that the people who vote UKIP don't

:35:23.:35:30.

support those aspirations? We are not doing enough to cut immigration.

:35:31.:35:34.

We don't have an EU Referendum Bill stop we have to get the centre right

:35:35.:35:38.

to vote for us again. Do that, and we have it. Tom Pursglove, the 25

:35:39.:35:46.

euros, will be returned in Corby because we cannot win an election

:35:47.:35:59.

there. -- the 25-year-old. Whether you are moderniser or

:36:00.:36:04.

traditionalist, people, particularly in the North, see you as a bunch of

:36:05.:36:12.

rich men. And rich southerners. You are bunch of rich southerners. We

:36:13.:36:17.

need to do more to show that we are building on lifting the poorest out

:36:18.:36:23.

of the tax. We need to build more houses. There is a perception that

:36:24.:36:27.

the leadership at the moment is rich, and public school educated.

:36:28.:36:34.

What we have to do is get more people from state education into the

:36:35.:36:40.

top. You are going the other way at the moment. That is a fair

:36:41.:36:48.

criticism. Modernisers also say that. I went to a combo hedge of

:36:49.:36:55.

school as well. -- do a comprehensive school. We need to

:36:56.:36:58.

show that we are standing up for low income. Thank Q, both of you. You

:36:59.:37:07.

are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just under 20 minutes,

:37:08.:37:17.

Welcome to Sunday Politics South. On today's show: female genital

:37:18.:37:22.

mutilation has been against the law for almost 30 years in this country,

:37:23.:37:26.

but no`one has ever been prosecuted for it. Now a committee of MPs wants

:37:27.:37:31.

to find out why. More on that shortly.

:37:32.:37:37.

First, though, let's meet the two politicians who are going to be with

:37:38.:37:41.

me for the next 20 minutes. Layla Moran is the Liberal Democrat for

:37:42.:37:44.

Oxford West Abingdon. Hello. And Ian Hudspeth is the Conservative

:37:45.:37:46.

leader of Oxfordshire County Council. Hello.

:37:47.:37:49.

Let's kick off with a little something from this week's Prime

:37:50.:37:53.

Minister's Questions. Mr Speaker, can the Prime Minister tell us how

:37:54.:37:56.

his campaign is going ` the campaign to save the Chipping Norton

:37:57.:38:03.

Children's Centre. I support Children's Centres across the whole

:38:04.:38:06.

of the country. The fact is, in spite of very difficult decisions

:38:07.:38:09.

that have had to be made right across the country, the number of

:38:10.:38:13.

Children's Centres has reduced by around 1%. Like all Members of

:38:14.:38:17.

Parliament, I fight very hard for services in my constituency. He then

:38:18.:38:23.

went on to ask why he'd signed a petition. Is that addressed to his

:38:24.:38:26.

local council... That would be you, Ian. Or is he taking it straight to

:38:27.:38:31.

the top? That would be the Prime Minister, I presume. Is this

:38:32.:38:34.

hypocrisy? I don't think so. You've got to remember that David Cameron

:38:35.:38:40.

is a constituency MP. Obviously he understands, and he wants to protect

:38:41.:38:43.

it. But there are difficult decisions that have got to be taken.

:38:44.:38:46.

We've got to produce a balanced budget at the end of the year, to

:38:47.:38:50.

make sure we're in the right place and moving forward. He says this

:38:51.:38:54.

government can hold its head up high because we are increasing the amount

:38:55.:38:57.

of money that's going to local councils for Children's Centres.

:38:58.:39:00.

That's not what you see in Oxfordshire, is it? It's just simply

:39:01.:39:04.

not true. That money can't be ring fenced in that way. I agree with

:39:05.:39:08.

you. I think it is hypocrisy. But the issue, I think, is Eric Pickles.

:39:09.:39:12.

As a Cabinet Member, your job is to fight your corner within government.

:39:13.:39:14.

He, for ideological reasons, has thought that there's been too much

:39:15.:39:18.

waste in local government. He thinks it's a great idea to encourage more

:39:19.:39:22.

cuts. When he came and did an interview in Oxfordshire, he got his

:39:23.:39:25.

numbers completely wrong. He doesn't understand the picture on the

:39:26.:39:29.

ground. But let's get back to David Cameron. Who's in charge here? Eric

:39:30.:39:32.

Pickles or David Cameron? Does David Cameron want money to go to

:39:33.:39:35.

Children's Centres? You talk to him. Is it just not getting through? He

:39:36.:39:38.

wants to retain Children's Centres. He's a great supporter. Why doesn't

:39:39.:39:42.

he do anything about it then!? One of the things that we are going to

:39:43.:39:47.

be doing... The budget comes out in a few weeks and you'll see the

:39:48.:39:50.

proposals. We're going to make sure that we've got a balanced budget.

:39:51.:39:54.

But within that we've got to keep the envelope. You've got to remember

:39:55.:39:57.

that these financial constraints are because of the need to reduce the

:39:58.:40:00.

deficit. Both Conservative and Liberal Democrat MPs are making the

:40:01.:40:03.

decisions. We've got to understand that. Both parties are reducing the

:40:04.:40:10.

deficit. We've got to be in that. What we've got to do is look at

:40:11.:40:13.

smarter ways of working. We've already done that in Oxford. Working

:40:14.:40:19.

with the community. But in the end you've got less money from central

:40:20.:40:23.

government? There's no doubt about it. We've got less money. You were

:40:24.:40:26.

with me at the meetings. I had public meetings... I addressed

:40:27.:40:29.

people... Understanding what was of concern to them. We've been

:40:30.:40:35.

listening to that. I finished the last one on Thursday. We're going to

:40:36.:40:39.

make all of those comments go into the budget and we'll see what

:40:40.:40:43.

happens then. Not at the end of procedure. Let me just pick you up

:40:44.:40:47.

on that. It is double standards, surely, for you to complain about

:40:48.:40:50.

this when it is a Liberal Democrat government as well? Absolutely. We

:40:51.:40:53.

are absolutely committed to getting the economy going again. That is

:40:54.:40:57.

true. But there are times when you have got to fight your corner. The

:40:58.:41:01.

fact is that Members of Parliament ` Conservative ones ` have not been

:41:02.:41:04.

standing up for this issue. Oxfordshire County Council... I feel

:41:05.:41:07.

sorry for you Ian. I'm sorry! You clearly don't have the influence on

:41:08.:41:12.

the party that you thought you did. It's up to the MPs to make that case

:41:13.:41:15.

on behalf of Oxfordshire. If Ian doesn't have influence, David

:41:16.:41:18.

Cameron doesn't seem to have it either! You've got to remember that

:41:19.:41:21.

the Coalition Government has got to reduce the deficit. Conservatives

:41:22.:41:24.

and Liberals taking very tough decisions ` reducing the budget so

:41:25.:41:27.

we can actually get the deficit down. That's what we have to do on

:41:28.:41:31.

the ground, so we can deliver good services to the people of

:41:32.:41:34.

Oxfordshire. Liberal Democrats are committed to keeping them open. In

:41:35.:41:37.

my constituency, we're running a campaign to keep them open. I

:41:38.:41:41.

mean... Danny Alexander doesn't sit there saying 'I had a bad pie in

:41:42.:41:45.

Oxfordshire once... I'm not going to give them extra money'. It's about

:41:46.:41:51.

the funding formula. That's decided by Eric Pickles and his ministry. If

:41:52.:41:55.

that's wrong ` and I think it is, you're getting a raw deal ` we have

:41:56.:42:04.

to stand up for what we want. The Liberal Democrats are involved in

:42:05.:42:08.

reducing the budgets. Now, you might remember that 18

:42:09.:42:12.

months ago we met Lucy Herd. She was campaigning for statutory

:42:13.:42:15.

bereavement leave. She's back with us today. Partly as a result of

:42:16.:42:19.

being on that programme, her campaign came one step closer to

:42:20.:42:26.

fruition this week. Have you got good news for us? I have. It was

:42:27.:42:29.

mentioned in Prime Minister's Questions. It was! David Cameron

:42:30.:42:34.

said he was sympathetic, partly because he lost his own son...

:42:35.:42:38.

Absolutely. It was very moving. He said he would look into it and get

:42:39.:42:42.

back to Tom Harris MP. He raised the question. He also had, back in

:42:43.:42:49.

September, a Ten Minute Rule Bill? Yes. It didn't seem to go down that

:42:50.:42:54.

well. At the time, they were suggesting that the 1996 Employment

:42:55.:42:57.

Rights Act allows time off for dependence ` a legal right to unpaid

:42:58.:43:01.

leave for family emergencies. One or two days to deal with the problem.

:43:02.:43:06.

That's not enough, you're saying. Maybe guidance is the answer now? I

:43:07.:43:17.

don't think guidance is enough. You're still under the discretion of

:43:18.:43:21.

your employer. So if they tell you that you can't have time off,

:43:22.:43:25.

there's no law to say they're wrong. Your four weeks of bereavement

:43:26.:43:29.

leave... Wouldn't that be not enough for some people? Maybe used as a

:43:30.:43:33.

negotiating tool by some others, which would then damage the genuine

:43:34.:43:41.

cases? That's why I'm speaking now, about the death of a child. I have

:43:42.:43:45.

heard employers tell me that they've had a 'great aunt' who has died five

:43:46.:43:53.

times. All from the same person. So you do have the minority who ruin it

:43:54.:43:56.

for everybody else. Everybody deals with grief differently. There is no

:43:57.:44:00.

right way and no wrong way. I think there needs to be legislation to say

:44:01.:44:04.

you have to give time off to grieve. There's a possibility of that coming

:44:05.:44:07.

through the Children's and Families Bill. Would you support this, Ian?

:44:08.:44:13.

Even though it's more regulation? Absolutely. It's a terrible

:44:14.:44:18.

situation. All individuals. But particularly the death of a child.

:44:19.:44:21.

It really affects people. I think you should negotiate with your

:44:22.:44:25.

employer. Employers have to understand their employee. It's good

:44:26.:44:32.

to support people. It's not bad having complete time off. Perhaps

:44:33.:44:36.

getting back to work a little early. Having afternoons off. Being

:44:37.:44:41.

sympathetic. It affects everybody in a different way. It's not always at

:44:42.:44:47.

the time of the event. It can be after. For instance, I've just lost

:44:48.:44:55.

my mother. I'd usually phone her and tell her not to miss the Sunday

:44:56.:44:58.

Politics.. But I can't do that now. Little moments like that you miss.

:44:59.:45:04.

That's when you remember. How clear should this guidance be? If you give

:45:05.:45:10.

people paid leave for this, is it going too far? It can be hard for

:45:11.:45:17.

small businesses. But I want to congratulate you on how far you've

:45:18.:45:21.

got with this campaign. It's important that we talk as a nation

:45:22.:45:27.

about this sort of issue. I think a key issue is flexible working. Lib

:45:28.:45:32.

Dems have been pushing this. Soon we're going to extend it to all

:45:33.:45:37.

people. So you have the right to ask your employer. If you're working,

:45:38.:45:48.

and your life circumstances change ` something that messes up the balance

:45:49.:45:52.

` we want you to be allowed to ask your employer without fear of

:45:53.:45:55.

prejudice. The other side is mental health. Talking about it with your

:45:56.:46:05.

doctor. Not just automatically taking a pill. David Cameron

:46:06.:46:12.

referred to his own experience. He said colleagues covered for him. He

:46:13.:46:18.

said he needed a couple of weeks to stand back, and see where he was.

:46:19.:46:26.

But it can come completely out of the blue. It could be more than two

:46:27.:46:31.

weeks that you need? I think a good module to compare it to is paternity

:46:32.:46:36.

leave. You don't have to take it all in one go. Some people find they

:46:37.:46:42.

need to go back to work straightaway, to get their mind off

:46:43.:46:46.

it. But it doesn't matter with grief. It will affect you at some

:46:47.:46:52.

point. Six months down the line people can think you'll be over it.

:46:53.:47:02.

But that's a crucial time. You should be able to go to your

:47:03.:47:05.

employer and say you're not doing very well. Can you help? Sadly, they

:47:06.:47:10.

might turn around and say they can't. That's why it's so important

:47:11.:47:16.

to have it legislated. People of the future can hopefully take the time

:47:17.:47:20.

off because they're entitled to it. It's good to have you back. Give us

:47:21.:47:26.

some news! I remember you saying one of your family members was a

:47:27.:47:30.

Suffragette. Absolutely! It's in my blood! You'll be going back until

:47:31.:47:37.

they sort it out? I will keep chipping away, even if it takes the

:47:38.:47:43.

rest of my life. Super. This week, the Home Affairs Select

:47:44.:47:46.

Committee announced it was launching an investigation into female genital

:47:47.:47:48.

mutilation to establish why there have been no prosecutions in the UK.

:47:49.:47:56.

This is despite the fact that tens of thousands of women are reckoned

:47:57.:47:59.

to have suffered the 'cutting' and 'stitching' that until now has been

:48:00.:48:03.

more common in African and Middle Eastern countries. The victims could

:48:04.:48:18.

be closer than we might think. FGM has been illegal in the UK since

:48:19.:48:23.

1985. Despite that, it's estimated 20,000 girls could fall victim every

:48:24.:48:29.

year. The NHS says it is happening here, in places like Crawley,

:48:30.:48:35.

Reading, Slough and Oxford. I was nine. I was approached by my nanny.

:48:36.:48:41.

She said there is something I have to tell you, that you need to do. I

:48:42.:48:49.

was imagining how deformed I might be... What Abigail was told to do to

:48:50.:48:55.

herself as a child in Zimbabwe is one of the least severe forms of

:48:56.:49:09.

FGM. I remember the pain. I said I'm not going to do this. Even if it

:49:10.:49:18.

means she might get angry. It was so painful. FGM has come to the UK with

:49:19.:49:24.

migrant communities. It's prevalent in Africa, the Middle East and Asia.

:49:25.:49:36.

Abigail believes local` level campaigning is key, and focuses her

:49:37.:49:39.

efforts on Oxfordshire. Some people think it still has to be passed on.

:49:40.:49:51.

They think it is culture. But it is just a habit certain people have

:49:52.:50:00.

accepted, despite its dangers. An NHS video explains some of the

:50:01.:50:05.

effects. The procedures are generally not done by medical

:50:06.:50:11.

personnel. They're done in unsterile, unsanitary conditions.

:50:12.:50:26.

There is damage to genital organs and surrounding organs. It can lead

:50:27.:50:29.

to infection. It can also cause damage to pregnancies and have

:50:30.:50:32.

long`term emotional distress. Some people are always mentally affected

:50:33.:50:39.

because of what they went through. People caught practising face a

:50:40.:50:48.

fine, or 14 years in prison. But there's never yet been a successful

:50:49.:50:54.

prosecution. In the last four years, Thames Valley Police has recorded a

:50:55.:51:01.

grand total of nine cases. It will be made a priority in the

:51:02.:51:04.

forthcoming update of the area's crime plan. I'm worried about it in

:51:05.:51:11.

certain communities. It's high time we had a prosecution. But it's very

:51:12.:51:18.

difficult. Other organisations like the NHS have to come forward, report

:51:19.:51:23.

things and help. We won't find it ourselves. The government has its

:51:24.:51:27.

own action plan. It includes this statement, for girls to carry with

:51:28.:51:31.

them, and a ?50,000 fund to support victims. If the government work with

:51:32.:51:40.

communities, it will be easy to put in place procedures. They will know

:51:41.:51:49.

where to go. They will know they are in safe hands. For now, FGM remains

:51:50.:52:01.

a devastating, but hidden crime. It is not a medical procedure. It

:52:02.:52:07.

doesn't add any value to any woman's life. It is child abuse. Violence

:52:08.:52:17.

against women. You've got to wonder why any parent thinks that's the

:52:18.:52:20.

right thing for their children. Abigail was nine years old. It

:52:21.:52:29.

happens to up to 98% of some girls in some countries. Is it a mistake

:52:30.:52:38.

about fertility... Something like that? It's horrific. It doesn't add,

:52:39.:52:45.

in any way, to the health of women. Unlike male circumcision, which can

:52:46.:52:50.

sometimes help. It's a key point. It's cultural. With circumcision,

:52:51.:53:01.

some doctors would disagree. It's not a direct parallel? Absolutely

:53:02.:53:12.

not. But we are committed to getting rid of FGM. Not just at home but

:53:13.:53:20.

abroad as well. That's tough talk. It will take a lot of coordination.

:53:21.:53:25.

Is it right that we try to tell another culture... Yes. These are

:53:26.:53:30.

people who live in places like Oxfordshire. We've set up a

:53:31.:53:41.

multi`agency hub ` we've got police, social workers... All working

:53:42.:53:50.

together. We want to stop this. We need to make sure schools are aware

:53:51.:53:55.

of what the signs are so they can alert people. This is a barbaric

:53:56.:54:05.

thing. We've got to do something. It's illegal. Confidentiality in the

:54:06.:54:19.

NHS ` we may have to look at that. We have to protect people. Social

:54:20.:54:28.

workers are being trained. School teachers as well. It has to be

:54:29.:54:41.

stopped. It can't go on. This is why I'm so disturbed by cuts in local

:54:42.:54:46.

government. Early Intervention Centres are looking for this type of

:54:47.:54:53.

abuse. It's not just about a campaign to make people aware. It's

:54:54.:54:57.

about having professionals able to deal with it. We can't tackle this

:54:58.:55:08.

just in England. It has to be an international level, with

:55:09.:55:15.

cooperation. Most of the governments we work with also have laws against

:55:16.:55:23.

it. Prosecution would send a wider message, to say we won't tolerate

:55:24.:55:28.

it? In this country it's illegal. Ideally, you don't want to

:55:29.:55:31.

prosecute. You want it stopped altogether. It can't be acceptable.

:55:32.:55:42.

Everybody has to be alert. The multi`agency hub is looking for

:55:43.:55:51.

signs. It's still a priority despite the budget cuts. Yes. Thank you.

:55:52.:56:04.

Time now for our regular round up of the political week in the South.

:56:05.:56:14.

Plenty on the menu. It was revealed that Dorset school meals are being

:56:15.:56:17.

transported 200 miles each day from Nottingham. Dorset County Council

:56:18.:56:21.

say they had some reservations about a long`distance contract, but insist

:56:22.:56:26.

it's working. At off`licences in Portsmouth, super

:56:27.:56:29.

strength cider and beer has been taken off the shelves. The voluntary

:56:30.:56:35.

initiative to cut down on drunkenness is a joint plan between

:56:36.:56:39.

the council and police. It's not just about dealing with the cause

:56:40.:56:42.

but also offering those with alcohol dependency other areas for support.

:56:43.:56:47.

A u`turn on Ghurkha pensions meant this man from Reading got his first

:56:48.:56:53.

food in two weeks. He stopped his hunger strike when a government

:56:54.:56:56.

inquiry was announced. Finally, New Forest MP Julian Lewis

:56:57.:57:00.

made a meal of his question to the Prime Minister ` insisting Lib Dems

:57:01.:57:05.

must not veto new nuclear weapons. I don't think I would satisfy my

:57:06.:57:08.

friend completely, even if I gave him a nuclear submarine to park off

:57:09.:57:18.

the coast of his constituency. He's asked used that joke before... It's

:57:19.:57:27.

a good joke! Plenty to get your teeth into. This school meals story

:57:28.:57:37.

is remarkable. What happens in Oxfordshire? There's a scheme going

:57:38.:57:44.

on which revolves around local produce. That's important. To bring

:57:45.:57:52.

it from Nottingham... There are a lot of food miles involved there.

:57:53.:57:55.

But you've got to get the best value? We have a policy coming in

:57:56.:58:03.

that five to seven year olds will get free school meals. It's a nice

:58:04.:58:16.

policy but over the years there are a lot of schools that don't have

:58:17.:58:30.

kitchens. Will there be the funding? It would be better if it was local.

:58:31.:58:37.

My constituents care about green issues. The more people having these

:58:38.:58:42.

meals, the more likelihood there is we can come together. If you don't

:58:43.:58:51.

get money for capital investment, will it be a struggle? Yes. It could

:58:52.:58:59.

result in cuts in other services. Rubbish! If it's not fully funded,

:59:00.:59:19.

there's a direct linkage. We would have to pick up the tab. Will the

:59:20.:59:28.

Lib Dems provide all the funding so it can be cooked on the premises? I

:59:29.:59:32.

think you're putting the cart before the horse. ?400 a year is a good

:59:33.:59:40.

amount of money for a lot of people. It destigmatises school meals. It's

:59:41.:59:49.

a good policy. As long as it's fully funded. Thank you for your

:59:50.:59:57.

contribution. Thanks to my guests Layla Moran and

:59:58.:00:03.

Ian Hudspeth. Here's the link to my blog. For now, back to Andrew.

:00:04.:00:10.

those people who want to cycle. We will be returning to this one. Thank

:00:11.:00:14.

you. A little bit of history was made at

:00:15.:00:24.

Prime Minister's Questions this week. A teensy tiny bit. It wasn't

:00:25.:00:29.

David Cameron accusing one MP of taking "mind-altering substances" -

:00:30.:00:32.

they're always accusing each other of doing that. No, it was the first

:00:33.:00:36.

time a Prime Minister used a live tweet sent from someone watching the

:00:37.:00:38.

session as ammunition at the dispatch box. Let's have a look We

:00:39.:00:47.

have had some interesting interventions from front edges past

:00:48.:00:54.

and present. I hope I can break records by explaining that a tweet

:00:55.:00:58.

has just come in from Tony McNulty, the former Labour security

:00:59.:01:02.

minister, saying that the public are desperate for a PM in waiting who

:01:03.:01:07.

speaks for them, not a Leader of the Opposition in dodging in partisan

:01:08.:01:12.

Westminster Village knock about So I would stay up with the tweets if

:01:13.:01:16.

you want to get on the right side of this one! We are working on how the

:01:17.:01:21.

Prime Minister managed to get that wheat in the first place. What did

:01:22.:01:25.

you think when you saw it being read out? I was certainly watching the

:01:26.:01:31.

Daily Politics. I almost fell off my chair! It was quite astonishing He

:01:32.:01:36.

didn't answer the question - he didn't do that the whole time. But I

:01:37.:01:41.

stand by what the tweets said. I have tweeted for a long time on

:01:42.:01:46.

PMQs. Normally I am praising Ed Miliband to the hilt, but no one

:01:47.:01:52.

announces that in Parliament! Because the Prime Minister picked up

:01:53.:01:56.

on what you said, it unleashed some attacks on you from the Labour side.

:01:57.:02:01.

It did, minor attacks from some very junior people. Most people were

:02:02.:02:05.

supportive of what I said. They took issue with the notion of not doing

:02:06.:02:11.

it until 12:30pm, when it wasn't available for the other side to use.

:02:12.:02:16.

Instant history, and instantly forgettable, I would say. Do you

:02:17.:02:21.

think you have started a bit of a trend? I hope not, because the

:02:22.:02:25.

dumbing down of PMQs is already on its way. Most people tweet like mad

:02:26.:02:35.

through PMQs! Is a measure of how post-modern we have become, we have

:02:36.:02:38.

journalists tweeting about someone talking about a tweet. That is the

:02:39.:02:45.

level of British politics. I am horrified by this development. The

:02:46.:02:48.

whole of modern life has become about observing people -- people

:02:49.:02:54.

observing themselves doing things. Do we know what happened? Somebody

:02:55.:03:00.

is monitoring the tweets on behalf of the Prime Minister or the Tory

:03:01.:03:04.

party. They see Tony's tweet. They then print it out and give it to

:03:05.:03:09.

him? There was a suggestion that Michael Goves had spotted it, but

:03:10.:03:13.

Craig Oliver from the BBC had this great sort of... Craig Oliver was

:03:14.:03:23.

holding up his iPad to take pictures of the Prime Minister, which he then

:03:24.:03:28.

tweeted, from the Prime Minister. People will now be tweeting in the

:03:29.:03:32.

hope that they will be quoted by the Prime Minister, or the Leader of the

:03:33.:03:38.

Opposition. I wasn't doing that I'm just talking about the monster you

:03:39.:03:43.

have unleashed! I hope it dies a miserable death. I think Tony is a

:03:44.:03:49.

good analysis -- a good analyst of PMQs on Twitter. Moving onto the

:03:50.:03:58.

Co-op. You were a Co-op-backed MP, white you? I was a Co-op party

:03:59.:04:07.

member. There are two issues here about the Co-op and the Labour

:04:08.:04:11.

Party. All the new music suggests that the Co-op will now have to

:04:12.:04:16.

start pulling back from lending or donating to the Labour Party, which,

:04:17.:04:21.

at a time when Mr Miliband is going through changes that are going to

:04:22.:04:24.

cut of the union funds, it seems quite dangerous. There are three

:04:25.:04:29.

things going on. There's the relationship that the party has

:04:30.:04:33.

politically with the Co-op party, there is the commercial relationship

:04:34.:04:39.

you referred to, and then there is this enquiry into the comings and

:04:40.:04:42.

goings of Flowers and everybody else. The Tories, at their peril,

:04:43.:04:50.

will mix the three up. There's a lot of things going on with a bang.

:04:51.:04:54.

Labour has some issues around funding generally, and they are

:04:55.:04:59.

potentially exacerbated by the Co-op issue. The Labour Party gets soft

:05:00.:05:07.

loans from the Co-op bank, and it gets donations. ?800,000 last year.

:05:08.:05:14.

Ed Balls got about ?50,000 for his private office. You get the feeling,

:05:15.:05:18.

given the state of the Co-operative Bank now, that that money could dry

:05:19.:05:23.

up. We will see. There's lots of speculation in the papers today At

:05:24.:05:28.

the core, the relationship between the Co-op party and the Labour Party

:05:29.:05:33.

is a proud one, and a legitimate one. I don't think others always

:05:34.:05:37.

understand that. Here is an even bigger issue. Is it not possible

:05:38.:05:43.

that the Co-op bank will cease to exist in any meaningful way as a

:05:44.:05:50.

Co-op bank? Is the bane out means it is 70% owned -- the bail out means

:05:51.:06:01.

that it is 70% owned, or 35% going to a hedge fund, I think I read

:06:02.:06:06.

Yes, there is a move from the mutualism of the Co-op. But don t

:06:07.:06:10.

confuse the Co-op bank with the Co-op Group. Others have done that.

:06:11.:06:21.

I haven't. Here's the rub. The soft loans that Labour gets. They got

:06:22.:06:29.

?1.2 million from this. And 2.4 million. They are secured against

:06:30.:06:38.

future union membership fees of the party. What is Mr Miliband doing? He

:06:39.:06:44.

is trying to end that? You have this very difficult confluence of events,

:06:45.:06:48.

which is, could these wonderful soft loans that Labour has had from the

:06:49.:06:53.

Co-op, could they be going? And these union reforms, where Ed

:06:54.:06:58.

Miliband is trying to create a link between individuals and donations to

:06:59.:07:03.

the Labour Party... Clearly, there could be real financial difficulties

:07:04.:07:07.

here. The government needs to be careful, because George Osborne

:07:08.:07:11.

launched one of his classic blunderbuss operations this week,

:07:12.:07:14.

which is that the Labour Party is to blame for Paul Flowers' private

:07:15.:07:21.

life. No, it's not. And that all the problems, essentially... Look at

:07:22.:07:28.

what George Osborne was doing in Europe. He was trying to change the

:07:29.:07:32.

capital requirement rules that would make it easier for the Co-op to take

:07:33.:07:37.

over Lloyd's. If there is to be a big investigation, George Osborne

:07:38.:07:40.

needs to be careful of what he wishes for. This is another example

:07:41.:07:45.

of the Westminster consensus. All of the Westminster parties were in

:07:46.:07:49.

favour of the Britannia takeover. This is how the Co-op ended up with

:07:50.:07:54.

all this toxic rubbish on its balance sheet. All the major parties

:07:55.:07:58.

were in favour of going to get the Lloyds branches. The Tories tried to

:07:59.:08:01.

outdo Labour in being more pro-Co-op. There was nobody in

:08:02.:08:09.

Westminster saying, hold on, this doesn't work. It is like the

:08:10.:08:15.

financial bubble all over again Everyone was in favour of that at

:08:16.:08:20.

the time. I think there is no evidence so far that the storm is

:08:21.:08:24.

cutting through to the average voter. If I were Ed Miliband, I

:08:25.:08:28.

would let it die a natural death. I would not write to an editorial

:08:29.:08:33.

column for a national newspaper on a Sunday. That keeps the issue alive,

:08:34.:08:39.

and it makes him look oversensitive and much better at dishing it out

:08:40.:08:46.

than taking it. I agree about that. The Labour press team tweeted this

:08:47.:08:50.

week saying that it was a new low for the times. And this was

:08:51.:09:00.

re-tweeted by Ed Miliband. It isn't a great press attitude. It is very

:09:01.:09:06.

Moni. Bill Clinton went out there and fought and made the case. So did

:09:07.:09:11.

Tony Blair. If you just say, they are being horrible to us, it looks

:09:12.:09:17.

pathetic. And it will cut through on Osborne and the financial

:09:18.:09:23.

dimensional is, not political. I shall tweet that later! While we

:09:24.:09:32.

have been talking, Mr Miliband has been on Desert Island Discs. He

:09:33.:09:38.

might still be on it. Let's have a listen to what he had to say.

:09:39.:09:46.

# Take on me, take me on. # And threw it all, she offers me

:09:47.:09:57.

protection. # A lot of love and affection.

:09:58.:10:09.

# Whether I'm right or wrong #. # Je Ne Regrette Rien. #.

:10:10.:10:25.

Obviously, that was the music that Ed Miliband chose. Who thought -

:10:26.:10:31.

you would have thought he would choose Norman Lamont's theme tune!

:10:32.:10:40.

He chose Jerusalem... He has no classical background at all. He had

:10:41.:10:51.

no Beethoven, no Elgar. David Cameron had Mendelssohn. And Ernie,

:10:52.:10:59.

the fastest Notman in the West. -- fastest milkman. Tony Blair chose

:11:00.:11:10.

the theme tune to a movie. Tony Blair's list was chosen by young

:11:11.:11:13.

staffers in his office. It absolutely was. Tony Blair's list

:11:14.:11:24.

was chosen by staff. The Ed Miliband this was clearly chosen by himself,

:11:25.:11:27.

because who would allow politician to go out there and say that they

:11:28.:11:38.

like Aha. I am the same age as Ed Miliband, and of course he likes

:11:39.:11:42.

Aha. That was the tumour was played in the 80s. Sweet Caroline. It is

:11:43.:11:53.

Angels by Robbie Williams. I was 14-year-old girl when that came out.

:11:54.:12:01.

I thought Angels was the staple of hen nights and chucking out time in

:12:02.:12:08.

pubs. The really good thing about his list is that the Smiths to not

:12:09.:12:12.

appear. The Smiths were all over David Cameron's list. The absolutely

:12:13.:12:17.

miserable music of Morris he was not there. What was his luxury? And

:12:18.:12:26.

Indian takeaway! Again, chosen for political reasons. I would agree

:12:27.:12:33.

with the panel about Aha, but I would expect -- I would respect his

:12:34.:12:41.

right to choose. Have you been on Desert Island Discs? I have. It took

:12:42.:12:45.

me three weeks to choose the music. It was the most difficult decision

:12:46.:12:50.

in my life. What was the most embarrassing thing you chose? I

:12:51.:12:55.

didn't choose anything embarrassing. I chose Beethoven, Elgar, and some

:12:56.:13:00.

proper modern jazz. Anything from the modern era? Pet Shop Boys.

:13:01.:13:13.

That's all for today. The Daily Politics will be on BBC Two at

:13:14.:13:16.

lunchtime every day next week, and we'll be back here on BBC One at

:13:17.:13:20.

11am next week. My luxury, by the way, was a wind-up radio! Remember,

:13:21.:13:22.

if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:23.:13:30.

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