11/12/2016 Sunday Politics South


11/12/2016

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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:38.:00:41.

A row has broken out between Number Ten and former

:00:42.:00:44.

Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan over Brexit and, believe it or not,

:00:45.:00:47.

the price of Theresa May's leather trousers.

:00:48.:00:52.

I feel as though I'm one of the people that

:00:53.:00:54.

If you do that, you are likely to attract attention,

:00:55.:00:58.

It's not just Nicky Morgan making life difficult

:00:59.:01:09.

for the Prime Minister - we'll be taking a look at the rest

:01:10.:01:12.

Fully paid-up rebel Ken Clarke joins us live.

:01:13.:01:16.

Protestors disrupted a speech by Jeremy Corbyn yesterday,

:01:17.:01:18.

but is his biggest problem Labour's miserable performance

:01:19.:01:20.

In the South, will be a's new bus and Corbyn critic Chris Leslie

:01:21.:01:29.

In the South, will be a's new bus services Bill mean more local

:01:30.:01:31.

control over return fares will only think of it as an early Christmas

:01:32.:01:49.

present from us. We guarantee you won't

:01:50.:01:52.

be disappointed. And speaking of guaranteed

:01:53.:01:54.

disappointments - I'm joined by three of the busiest little elves

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in political journalism. It's Iain Martin, Polly Toynbee

:01:57.:01:58.

and Tom Newton Dunn. So, we knew relations

:01:59.:02:00.

between Theresa May and some of her backbenchers over Europe

:02:01.:02:08.

weren't exactly a bed of roses. But signs of how fractious things

:02:09.:02:13.

are getting come courtesy of this morning's Mail on Sunday which has

:02:14.:02:19.

the details of a series of texts from one of Mrs May's senior

:02:20.:02:22.

advisers to and concerning the former Cabinet

:02:23.:02:25.

minister Nicky Morgan. Mrs Morgan is one of those arguing

:02:26.:02:30.

for a so-called soft Brexit, and has been pressing the PM

:02:31.:02:35.

to reveal more of her negotiation She's also apparently irked

:02:36.:02:38.

Downing Street by questioning Mrs May's decision to purchase

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and be photographed in a ?995 pair She said she had "never spent that

:02:45.:02:51.

much money on anything apart Mrs Morgan was due to attend

:02:52.:02:56.

a meeting at Number 10 this week But that invitation seems to be off,

:02:57.:03:06.

after a fairly extraordinary argument by text message

:03:07.:03:10.

with Mrs May's joint chief She texted the MP Alistair Burt,

:03:11.:03:13.

another of those arguing for a so-called soft Brexit,

:03:14.:03:22.

cancelling Nicky Morgan's invitation and telling him to not "bring that

:03:23.:03:29.

woman to Number Ten again". The following day Nicky Morgan

:03:30.:03:34.

texted Fiona Hill, saying "If you don't like something I have

:03:35.:03:36.

said or done, please If you don't want my views in future

:03:37.:03:38.

meetings you need to tell them." Shortly afterwards she received

:03:39.:03:52.

the reply "Well, he just did. And according to the Mail,

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Mrs Morgan, who you'll see in our film shortly,

:03:58.:04:02.

has now been formally banned So, Tom, much ado about nothing or

:04:03.:04:17.

telling you about the underlying tensions over Brexit? Both, if I am

:04:18.:04:22.

allowed to choose both. It says something about British politics

:04:23.:04:25.

today, that this is the most important thing we can find to talk

:04:26.:04:29.

about, because the Government are not giving us anything to talk about

:04:30.:04:32.

cs especially on Brexit because they don't have a plan as we know. There

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is is a lot of truth that are being spoken from this row, one is that

:04:37.:04:41.

Mrs May comes into Downing Street with a lot of baggage including

:04:42.:04:45.

spectacular fall outs with Cabinet Ministers in the past. Nicky Morgan

:04:46.:04:53.

being one. We heard about the row over banning children from school.

:04:54.:04:58.

She fell out with Boris Johnson, so, she then enters Number Ten with

:04:59.:05:04.

history. When you are in Number Ten you start, you cannot be

:05:05.:05:10.

controversial and my way but the high way, which is why Fiona Hill

:05:11.:05:17.

kept Theresa May in the Home Office. You need to behave differently in

:05:18.:05:22.

the top job. It is surprising Nicky Morgan hats taken such a robust

:05:23.:05:27.

line. She seemed such a gentle soul as a minister. She did, Brexit has

:05:28.:05:33.

done funny things to people. Everything has been shaken up. It

:05:34.:05:37.

reveals really how paranoid they are, I mean you cannot have a

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situation really in which the, in which you know, Number Ten has got

:05:43.:05:49.

realise if the Prime Minister's entire stick is her authenticity and

:05:50.:05:54.

incredible connection, which is genuine, with voters outside the

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Metropolitan bubble, when she chooses to wear ?995 leather

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trousers you have to anticipate that journalists and MPs are going to

:06:03.:06:06.

take the mickey, that is how life works, but I think they are trying

:06:07.:06:11.

to run Number Ten as they ran the Home Office, and you see that in the

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rows they have had with Mark Carney and Boris Johnson this week, now you

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might be able to run one Government department in that control freakish

:06:21.:06:24.

way but not Government will hold together for too long, if it is run

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in that fashion. By try doing the whole Government like one

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department. This is just the start, Polly, we are still several months

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away from triggering Article 50. We, The Tory party is split down the

:06:40.:06:43.

middle, the thing that mattered most to the nation since the last war, it

:06:44.:06:47.

is not frivolous. It may look as if it is about trousers, it is about

:06:48.:06:52.

the most serious thing. What was split down the middle? Aren't the

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Euro-files and the Eurosceptics used to be the outliers, it is now the

:06:59.:07:03.

Europhiles, it is not a split down the middle. They won't vote against

:07:04.:07:08.

Brexit but they will, I think exert the maximum influence they can, to

:07:09.:07:12.

make sure that it is not a Brexit, a self-harming Brexit, to make sure

:07:13.:07:15.

that the country understand, when it comes to that point, that there may

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be really hard decision to make, do you want a real economic damage to

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be done to the country, to your own wallet, in, in exchange for being

:07:28.:07:30.

able to stop free movement or is that trade off in the end going to

:07:31.:07:35.

be just too expensive? We have seen polls suggesting people are

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beginning to move, and not willing, a poll out now saying people

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wouldn't be willing to sacrifice any money at all, for the sake of

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stopping immigration. So if itself comes to that trade off, the people

:07:49.:07:52.

are going to need to be confronted with that choice. The Irony is, I

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think the Tories are in the most exceptionally strong position, I

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mean what is happening here is that British politics is being realigned

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and remade along leave and remain lines, if the Prime Minister's luck

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hold, the Tories are looking at being somewhere 45, 46, 47% of the

:08:17.:08:20.

vote with an opposition split between a far left Labour Party and

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depleted Liberal Democrats, that sound like a recipe for something

:08:25.:08:27.

similar to what happened in the 1980s. You are seeing extraordinary

:08:28.:08:34.

alliances between left and right. The Scottish referendum rebuilt

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Scottish politics along the lines of pro independence, anti-independence

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and now Brexit maybe doing the same. So, rows within the Conservative

:08:41.:08:45.

Party over the price of trousers might be new,

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but over Europe, not so much. And this week's Commons vote

:08:48.:08:50.

on when the Government will fire the starting gun on Brexit,

:08:51.:08:53.

and what it will say about its plans before it does so,

:08:54.:08:55.

confirmed that instead of the eurosceptics

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being the outsiders, it's now the Remainers

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who are leading the resistance. While the Prime Minister

:09:00.:09:01.

was schmoozing in the gold-plated Gulf this week, back home

:09:02.:09:11.

the Commons was voting on a Labour motion forcing her

:09:12.:09:13.

to publish a plan for Brexit. Through some parliamentary

:09:14.:09:16.

jiggery-pokery, the Government basically got its way,

:09:17.:09:18.

but it did provide a platform for some mischiefmaking by Tory MPs

:09:19.:09:20.

who voted to remain, We are getting somewhat tired,

:09:21.:09:25.

are we not, of this constant level of abuse, this constant criticism

:09:26.:09:34.

that we are somehow Remoaners that want to thwart

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the will of the people, go back on it and that we don't

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accept the result. I don't like the result, and yes,

:09:41.:09:45.

I do believe the people It's not good enough

:09:46.:09:50.

that these things are dragged out of the Government

:09:51.:09:53.

by opposition day motions. I'm pleased that it's happened

:09:54.:09:55.

but I wish the Government was taking Is Nicky Morgan really

:09:56.:09:58.

listening to her constituents I think I'm one of the people

:09:59.:10:03.

who stuck their head above the parapet so if you do that

:10:04.:10:11.

you're likely to attract attention, you're likely to attract abuse,

:10:12.:10:14.

but also actually levels of support. I'm having e-mails from around

:10:15.:10:16.

the country with people saying thank you for what you are doing,

:10:17.:10:19.

party members around the country saying thank

:10:20.:10:21.

you for what you are doing and saying, and I and others

:10:22.:10:24.

will continue to do that. I just think, as a backbench

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Member of Parliament, you've got to be there,

:10:29.:10:30.

particularly when we have a weak opposition, to ask the question that

:10:31.:10:32.

government needs to be scrutinised on before we embark

:10:33.:10:35.

on such a huge issue. Nobody comes into politics to become

:10:36.:10:42.

a thorn in their party leader's side, but at the end of the day it's

:10:43.:10:45.

such a massive issue that if you don't stand up

:10:46.:10:49.

for what you believe in, I'm not sure what the point

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is of going into politics. That puts her on a collision course

:10:52.:10:57.

with activists in her local party like Adam Stairs,

:10:58.:11:00.

a committed leader who accuses Nicky has promised me and the rest

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of our Conservative association she will be voting for Article 50

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and she will support the Prime Minister's timetable,

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and we have just got to trust that and hope that goes ahead,

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but there's a lot of people who think she's taking sideswipes

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at the Government The Conservatives are very popular,

:11:16.:11:17.

she wants to be a Conservative MP and we want to see a Conservative

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government being I have no idea what she's playing

:11:22.:11:23.

at, I think she just needs to get on with her job as an MP,

:11:24.:11:31.

which she does very well, Now let's head to Anna Soubry's

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constituency nearby to see how her stance is going down

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with the voters. If Anna Soubry doesn't fully

:11:39.:11:40.

back Brexit, what does Well, she's going to have a little

:11:41.:11:42.

bit of a problem because the voters, especially in this area,

:11:43.:11:48.

they voted to come out of the EU so she will definitely

:11:49.:11:50.

have a little bit of a problem. She should stick for

:11:51.:11:53.

what she believes in, but I guess from a democratic

:11:54.:11:55.

perspective she does... She has admitted the fact over

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and over again that she wanted to remain, but her views

:11:58.:12:14.

at the moment, even in her e-mails, depicted the fact she's

:12:15.:12:17.

anti-Brexit still. Theresa May will host her most

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pro-European MPs at Downing Street this week to discuss

:12:19.:12:23.

the countdown to Brexit. Although now we know not

:12:24.:12:25.

everyone is invited. And the MP leading the resistance

:12:26.:12:34.

in the Commons on Wednesday was Ken Clarke, he was the only

:12:35.:12:40.

Conservative MP who voted against the Government's plan

:12:41.:12:42.

to trigger Article 50 by the end of March and he joins us

:12:43.:12:45.

now from Nottingham. Welcome back to the programme Ken

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Clarke. Now, tell me this when David Cameron resigned after losing the

:12:54.:12:57.

referendum, you had to pick a new leader, which candidate did the Tory

:12:58.:13:02.

Europhiles like you put up to deliver a so-called soft Brexit, or

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no Brexit at all? Well, I can't speak for the others but I voted for

:13:07.:13:12.

Theresa May, I gave a notorious interview, it wasn't meant to be, I

:13:13.:13:17.

was chatting to Malcolm Rifkind but somebody turned a camera on, I

:13:18.:13:22.

called her a bloody difficult woman which the Tory party probably needs,

:13:23.:13:25.

compared with Margaret Thatcher and said I was going to vote for her, I

:13:26.:13:30.

gave a vote for one of the younger ones first, but I told Teresa I

:13:31.:13:35.

would vote for her, she was the only serious candidate in my view. You

:13:36.:13:40.

voted for somebody you thought was a difficult woman, she is being

:13:41.:13:42.

difficult in ways you don't like, your side of the Tory party, you had

:13:43.:13:47.

your chance to put up somebody more in line with you, instead you shut

:13:48.:13:53.

up, so, why the complaints about it not going in your direction? I am

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not making complaint, it is not Teresa's fall we are in the dreadful

:13:58.:14:01.

mess, she was on the Remain side, she made a good speech during the

:14:02.:14:04.

campaign on the referendum, setting out the economic case for being in,

:14:05.:14:08.

setting out the security case for being in, which was Home Secretary,

:14:09.:14:12.

she was particularly expert in, it wasn't her fault that not a word it

:14:13.:14:16.

was reported anywhere, in the national media. Now, my views have

:14:17.:14:20.

been the same, I am afraid throughout my adult life, for the 50

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years I have been in politics, and my views have been the mainstream

:14:26.:14:29.

policy of the Conservative Party throughout all that time, I don't

:14:30.:14:34.

expect to have a sudden conversion on the 24th June, and I think what I

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owe to my constituency, and to Parliament, is that I exercise my

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judgment, I make speeches giving my reasons, I make the best judgment

:14:44.:14:47.

that I can, of what is the national interest. I understand that. I would

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be a terrible hypocrite if I... Of course that is not what I am asking.

:14:53.:14:58.

How many Conservative MPs do you think you can count on to oppose

:14:59.:15:05.

this so-called hard Brexit? Is it 40, 20, 10, 5, 1? I have no idea,

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because Anna, and Nicky, who you have just seen on the video who are

:15:11.:15:13.

also sticking to their principle, they are only saying what they are

:15:14.:15:17.

been saying ever since they have been in politics, probably may have

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more idea than me. That is three, how many more? I

:15:20.:15:37.

don't know, we will find out. We are living in a bubble in which the tone

:15:38.:15:41.

of politics is getting nastier and the reporting is getting sillier, so

:15:42.:15:46.

it is all about Theresa May's trousers and whether Boris has made

:15:47.:15:50.

some inappropriate jokes. What we need if we are going to abandon the

:15:51.:15:54.

basis upon which we made ourselves a leading political power in the world

:15:55.:15:58.

for the last 40 years and the basis upon which our economy has prospered

:15:59.:16:02.

because Margaret Thatcher got the others to adopt the single market

:16:03.:16:06.

and we benefited from that more than any other member state, so now we

:16:07.:16:12.

need a serious plan, a strategy. What is our relationship going to be

:16:13.:16:17.

in the modern world? How will our children and grandchildren make the

:16:18.:16:28.

best union they can? We need Parliament's approval of a White

:16:29.:16:31.

Paper and then start years of negotiation. This will run and run.

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This interview hasn't got time to run and run so let me get another

:16:37.:16:41.

question in. You seem to be quoted in the mail on Sunday this morning

:16:42.:16:46.

as saying if the Prime Minister sides too much with the heart Brexit

:16:47.:16:51.

group, she won't survive, is that your view? Yes because only a

:16:52.:16:55.

minority of the House of Commons think it is frightfully simple and

:16:56.:16:59.

you can just leave. The referendum campaign, the only national media

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reporting of the issues were completely silly and often quite

:17:05.:17:09.

dishonest arguments on both sides. Let me just check this, explain to

:17:10.:17:15.

me the basis... Know, excuse me, I have to interrupt because you said

:17:16.:17:18.

the Prime Minister won't survive so just explain to our viewers why she

:17:19.:17:23.

won't survive. She will be in a minority she starts adopting the

:17:24.:17:28.

views of John Redwood or Iain Duncan Smith. It's clear majority of the

:17:29.:17:31.

House of Commons doesn't agree with that and it would be pretty

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catastrophic if that is what we were going to do when we turn up and

:17:36.:17:42.

faced 27 of the nation state, and tell them we are pulling out of the

:17:43.:17:46.

biggest market in the world. How long do you give the Prime Minister

:17:47.:17:56.

then? If you don't think she will survive by going for a heart Brexit?

:17:57.:18:03.

I don't think she will go for a heart Brexit. Really, surrounded by

:18:04.:18:09.

David Davis and Liam Fox? Do you think Liam Fox will determine the

:18:10.:18:17.

policy of the Cabinet? Liam has always been ferociously against the

:18:18.:18:20.

European Union although he served in a government that was pro-European

:18:21.:18:25.

for about two and a half years. Does he not survive either? You're trying

:18:26.:18:32.

to reduce it to my trying to forecast Cabinet reshuffle is which

:18:33.:18:35.

I haven't got a clue whether there will be a Cabinet reshuffle, they

:18:36.:18:41.

may be ministers for the next ten years, I have no idea. Liam and me,

:18:42.:18:48.

but also Liam and the majority of his Cabinet colleagues don't start

:18:49.:18:51.

from the same place. The way forward is for them to produce a White Paper

:18:52.:18:56.

setting out the strategy on which all the Cabinet are agreed. People

:18:57.:19:00.

should stop leaking the Cabinet papers they are getting, they should

:19:01.:19:05.

stop leaking against each other, get down and do the work when they have

:19:06.:19:12.

got the agreed strategy. I'm sorry to interrupt again but we haven't

:19:13.:19:18.

got much time. We saw in our film that a number of constituency

:19:19.:19:26.

members in those areas which are strongly Remain MPs like yourself,

:19:27.:19:30.

in our case in this film it was Nicky Morgan, the constituency party

:19:31.:19:35.

members are unhappy about this. What's your message to them? Don't

:19:36.:19:39.

they deserve an MP that reflects their way of thinking? Leavers are

:19:40.:19:45.

unhappy and Remainers are very grateful. Mine don't go in for

:19:46.:19:55.

abuse... That's probably because you're not on e-mail, Mr Clarke. I

:19:56.:20:01.

get more from Remainers. I'm a great fan of Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan,

:20:02.:20:05.

I don't agree with them on everything, but the views they are

:20:06.:20:08.

putting forward are the ones they've always held and I think we are doing

:20:09.:20:12.

the Government to favour by saying what it now depends on is your

:20:13.:20:17.

success in agreeing a policy and then explaining to the public what

:20:18.:20:24.

you want to do. I shall be surprised if they manage that by the end of

:20:25.:20:29.

March, I think it is best to get the policy right first but we shall see.

:20:30.:20:36.

Have you been invited then, you say you are being helpful, have you been

:20:37.:20:40.

invited to this meeting in Downing Street on Wednesday for the soft

:20:41.:20:46.

Brexiteers? No, because I haven't been joining any of these groups.

:20:47.:20:50.

It's fair to say most of my colleagues know exactly what my

:20:51.:20:57.

views are. No doubt those that haven't had this kind of discussion

:20:58.:21:00.

with their colleagues before have been invited. I didn't expect to be

:21:01.:21:07.

invited. I get on perfectly well with Theresa May but I haven't been

:21:08.:21:12.

invited, but I don't think there's much significance in that. What do

:21:13.:21:16.

you think of the way Downing Street has handled Nicky Morgan? I feel

:21:17.:21:20.

sorry for women in politics. I'm glad to say men in politics don't

:21:21.:21:26.

have great lead stories about what they are wearing. Apart from my

:21:27.:21:31.

suede shoes, I'm lucky because I'm not a very snappy dresser. It is

:21:32.:21:35.

tedious in these days that we still have a absurd pop newspaper stories

:21:36.:21:38.

about what they are wearing. That commenting on the Prime

:21:39.:21:55.

Minister's trousers, is it really grounds for banishment? No, of

:21:56.:22:02.

course not. Nikki and Teresa will have serious political discussions

:22:03.:22:04.

and if they want to have an argument about what they are wearing, their

:22:05.:22:08.

closest friends will advise them to keep it private. It is absurd. Given

:22:09.:22:17.

that the party appears to be deciding it has been all -- ordered

:22:18.:22:25.

to changes policies about Britain's relationship with the world, it

:22:26.:22:29.

needs to be taken seriously and this Lola. Is filling a vacuum before the

:22:30.:22:34.

serious discussion starts. Thank you for filling our vacuum this morning

:22:35.:22:38.

and of course no one would ever criticise how you dress. Of course.

:22:39.:22:42.

Now, seasoned observers will warn against reading too much

:22:43.:22:44.

into parliamentary by-elections, but they can provide a vital boost

:22:45.:22:47.

for a party leader under pressure, or provide damaging ammunition

:22:48.:22:49.

Following a disappointing result for Labour last week in Richmond,

:22:50.:22:53.

Jeremy Corbyn may have been hoping for an early Christmas

:22:54.:22:55.

present at this week's contest in Lincolnshire.

:22:56.:22:57.

In Sleaford and North Hykeham, a constituency that supported Leave

:22:58.:23:05.

in the EU referendum, there was little Christmas cheer

:23:06.:23:08.

for Labour as it fell from second in 2015 to fourth place.

:23:09.:23:12.

That was at least a better performance than in

:23:13.:23:15.

Remain-supporting Richmond Park, where the party's candiate

:23:16.:23:18.

lost his deposit after attracting fewer voters than the reported

:23:19.:23:21.

number of local Labour Party members.

:23:22.:23:24.

Speaking for the Labour Party this week, MP Vernon Coaker

:23:25.:23:30.

said their policies on other major issues were "lost to an extent

:23:31.:23:34.

Some MPs feel that a lack of clarity is holding the party back.

:23:35.:23:47.

This week three frontbenchers were among the 23 Labour MPs to defy

:23:48.:23:50.

the party line and vote against a motion to begin

:23:51.:23:59.

the process of leaving the EU by the end of March.

:24:00.:24:01.

And a number of Labour MPs we've spoken to since Thursday's vote have

:24:02.:24:04.

said they fear the party now runs the risk of being squeezed

:24:05.:24:07.

by the Lib Dems and UKIP, or in the words of one,

:24:08.:24:10.

"being cannabilised, eaten from both ends".

:24:11.:24:14.

To compound their troubles, a national poll

:24:15.:24:16.

released on Friday put Labour at a seven-year low, trailing 17

:24:17.:24:18.

It's still a season of joy for many of Mr Corbyn's supporters -

:24:19.:24:25.

they point to a series of victories under his leadership,

:24:26.:24:27.

including a by-election win in Tooting and the London mayoral

:24:28.:24:30.

Though neither candidate was a Corbynite.

:24:31.:24:36.

But there's a distinct lack of goodwill on the party

:24:37.:24:40.

of his critics - although having failed comprehensively

:24:41.:24:42.

to challenge him this summer, what they intend to do

:24:43.:24:45.

This morning Diane Abbott played down the significance of the

:24:46.:24:56.

results. The reports of the Labour Party's demise are exaggerated, we

:24:57.:25:00.

are the largest social Democratic party in Europe and the surging

:25:01.:25:04.

membership is down to the current leadership. We have the right

:25:05.:25:07.

policies on the NHS, investing in the economy, and as you know the

:25:08.:25:10.

Tories are fatally split on Europe. And we're joined now

:25:11.:25:14.

by the former mayor of London Ken Livingstone,

:25:15.:25:16.

and the former Shadow Ken Livingstone, in the most recent

:25:17.:25:24.

by-election Labour collapsed from second to fourth place, the one

:25:25.:25:28.

before that your party lost its deposit. What is the positive gloss

:25:29.:25:35.

on that? There's nothing new in this, where you have got seats which

:25:36.:25:38.

are solidly Tory, often voters switched to Lib Dem to kick other

:25:39.:25:50.

voters out. We have had good swings that indicate a Labour government so

:25:51.:25:54.

don't pay too much attention. It is like Orpington 50 years ago. Labour

:25:55.:25:59.

voters switched just to kick the Tories out. Don't read too much into

:26:00.:26:09.

these results, Labour did win tooting so it is OK. First of all I

:26:10.:26:13.

don't think it was a problem with the candidates in the by-elections,

:26:14.:26:17.

they did a really good job locally, but there is an issue with those

:26:18.:26:22.

residents and their attitudes to the national party, and I just think

:26:23.:26:27.

that when you have warning bells going off like that, we have to

:26:28.:26:31.

listen to what people are saying. I think what they are saying is they

:26:32.:26:36.

want an opposition party to have a plan. So yes we have got to attack

:26:37.:26:39.

the Conservatives where they are going wrong on the NHS, running

:26:40.:26:44.

headlong over the cliff for a hard Brexit, but we also need a plan for

:26:45.:26:51.

what Labour's alternative will be. When do we get that plant?

:26:52.:26:58.

Effectively you have got it already. John McDonnell has gone on

:26:59.:27:01.

relentlessly for the need for a massive public investment. For

:27:02.:27:08.

decades now under Labour and Tory governments we haven't invested in

:27:09.:27:13.

infrastructure, our roads are a disgrace, a broadband is antique. We

:27:14.:27:18.

need to be honest about this, if Theresa May can come back and say

:27:19.:27:22.

I've done a deal, we are leaving the EU, we will control our borders, we

:27:23.:27:27.

won't have to pay 350 million a year and stay in the single market,

:27:28.:27:32.

well... But that won't happen. If we are going to stumble along for two

:27:33.:27:37.

years heading for an economic disaster, that's why only eight MPs

:27:38.:27:42.

voted to leave, because they knew the harm it would do to their

:27:43.:27:47.

voters. If you have got a plan, why are things getting worse for you in

:27:48.:27:50.

the national polls, 17 points behind? If you look back, when I was

:27:51.:27:55.

leader of Chelsea my poll rating went down... But you have not been

:27:56.:28:01.

as bad since 1983 when you lost an election by a landslide. Over the

:28:02.:28:07.

next two years our economy will not grow strongly, it will limp along at

:28:08.:28:12.

best, as we get closer to Brexit it will get worse. All Labour MPs

:28:13.:28:17.

should be focusing on the economic alternative because nobody ever wins

:28:18.:28:20.

an election without a credible economic strategy. So as long as the

:28:21.:28:26.

country goes to hell in a hand basket, Labour will be fine. That's

:28:27.:28:31.

not good enough. You're not a commentator any more, you are part

:28:32.:28:34.

of the leadership of the party. It is to you. I will continue to argue

:28:35.:28:42.

the case for credibility, particularly in our policies, but

:28:43.:28:44.

the leadership cannot just sit back and watch this drift. On the Brexit

:28:45.:28:49.

situation, the Conservative manifesto at the last general

:28:50.:28:56.

election promised it would be yes to the single market, why aren't we

:28:57.:28:59.

holding them to account for the broken promise potentially they are

:29:00.:29:05.

about to do? If I had still been an MP, I would have been voting with

:29:06.:29:09.

you, rebelling, because we are not going to get any good deal to leave.

:29:10.:29:13.

Theresa May will stumble on for a couple of years trying to balance...

:29:14.:29:18.

The party policies were heard from Diane Abbott this morning is to get

:29:19.:29:22.

the best possible deal to leave. And I will believe it when it happens.

:29:23.:29:28.

So you don't believe a central part of Jeremy Corbyn's policy? Jeremy

:29:29.:29:33.

has accepted the fact people voted to leave. He now said we now need to

:29:34.:29:40.

get the best possible deal and you don't think it's achievable. I

:29:41.:29:45.

don't, because why would the other 27 members give us a better deal

:29:46.:29:52.

staying outside? You've confused me, why are you such a big supporter of

:29:53.:29:56.

Corbyn with his policy you don't think it's achievable?

:29:57.:30:03.

Everybody knows we are not going to get a soft exit, so we either have

:30:04.:30:10.

the hard Brexit and we lose perhaps millions, certainly hundreds of

:30:11.:30:14.

thousands of jobs, or we have to say we got it wrong. I mean, you, a lot

:30:15.:30:20.

of people have been saying that all Labour's unclear on Brexit, that is

:30:21.:30:24.

why it is going wrong, I would suggest to you, that actually what

:30:25.:30:29.

the concentration on is the Tories are unclear about Brexit, they are

:30:30.:30:33.

in power, that is what matters, a bigger problem for Labour is whether

:30:34.:30:37.

Mr Corbyn's leadership will cut through or not. I think the YouGov

:30:38.:30:43.

poll this weekend not only gave us that double punch of a 17 point lead

:30:44.:30:48.

for the Conservatives but it had a 33 point lead, 33 point, for Theresa

:30:49.:30:53.

May over Jeremy Corbyn, so part of the plan, think, has to be to

:30:54.:30:56.

address this leadership issue, to make sure it is also a party that is

:30:57.:31:01.

listening to the wider public and not just the small number of members

:31:02.:31:09.

or the trotsites in Momentum or whoever is the latest Marxist on

:31:10.:31:18.

the... You The thing that is ox fibbing Labour. One MP said Labour

:31:19.:31:25.

has quoted bunkum. We have has 18 months of Labour MPs stabbing Jeremy

:31:26.:31:30.

in the back and some in the front. The vast majority of Labour MPs have

:31:31.:31:35.

stopped undermining Jeremy. You weren't doing that well before. Can

:31:36.:31:38.

you imagine a situation in which you have elected a new leader and the

:31:39.:31:41.

first year it is all about getting rid of imand undermining him. I

:31:42.:31:46.

disagree with Tony Blair on lots of policy issue, I didn't run wound

:31:47.:31:50.

saying this man is not fit to govern. That is because you had no

:31:51.:31:55.

support for that at the time. The idea people will take lectures from

:31:56.:32:01.

Ken on divisiveness, that is like takes lectures from Boris Johnson on

:32:02.:32:04.

diplomacy, you have to make sure, yes, that we find some accommodation

:32:05.:32:09.

after the leadership election this summer, but the plan is not there

:32:10.:32:15.

right now, and you and the rest of the leadership has to be held

:32:16.:32:21.

accountable for delivering that, I want to hear what the plan is. It is

:32:22.:32:26.

FDR he told us earlier. If you have got now because as we saw in the

:32:27.:32:32.

Autumn Statement, debt to GDP ratio at 90%, you can't convince the

:32:33.:32:36.

public by saying we will throw more money at the problem, the public

:32:37.:32:41.

want a credible plan, where the sums add up, that you are not making

:32:42.:32:45.

promises that won't be delivered. They want that plan. We need to

:32:46.:32:52.

point out our history, when Labour Waugh the election in 45 Government

:32:53.:32:58.

debt was two times that it was now.. Now.. They generated exports and

:32:59.:33:04.

within 50 years we virtually paid off that debt. Austerity is not the

:33:05.:33:09.

way to go. Our economy is a disgrace compared with Germany. I agree. What

:33:10.:33:15.

we have to start saying, there is decent jobs, where are they going to

:33:16.:33:19.

be coming from, can we have a society based on fair play and

:33:20.:33:24.

prosperity for everybody not just the wealthy, that means saying, some

:33:25.:33:26.

time, that people have to contribute, they have to put in, so

:33:27.:33:29.

we have to listen to what the public are saying on issues for instance

:33:30.:33:34.

like immigration, as they said in the Brexit referendum, but make sure

:33:35.:33:39.

we have our approach set out clearly, so people know there is a

:33:40.:33:44.

ability to manage, and control these things, not just ignore them. Those

:33:45.:33:51.

tax dodgers who launder their money through Panamanian banks. If we

:33:52.:33:59.

crackdown on what might be 150 billion a year of tax evasion and

:34:00.:34:04.

avoidance. That is a real outlier estimate as you know, way the

:34:05.:34:10.

highest, you cannot build the FDR programme on tax evasion revenues,

:34:11.:34:14.

alone, but let me ask you. You can say to Starbucks, if you are not

:34:15.:34:20.

going to pay tax on your profits we will tax every cup of coffee. Why

:34:21.:34:25.

don't you nationalise it? I was just checking that would be the policy.

:34:26.:34:30.

Let me ask you this. By what time do you get, start to get worrieded if

:34:31.:34:34.

the polls haven't given to turn round? I mean, I think they will

:34:35.:34:39.

turn round. When do you start to get worried? If they haven't? If in a

:34:40.:34:43.

year's time it was as bad as this we would be worried. I don't think it

:34:44.:34:46.

will be. Jeremy and his team will knows can on the economy, and that

:34:47.:34:54.

is wins every election. Bill Clinton, remember it's the economy

:34:55.:34:57.

stupid. People know if you are going to spend money they want to see

:34:58.:35:00.

where it is coming from, otherwise they will think it is their taxes

:35:01.:35:05.

that will go up and the Conservative, Theresa May, will

:35:06.:35:09.

scare the British public over plans that are not properly... What do you

:35:10.:35:14.

do if things haven't got better in 12 months? We lost the leadership

:35:15.:35:20.

election in the summer but we will hold our leadership to account. What

:35:21.:35:26.

does that mean? It means asking for the plan, testing what the proposals

:35:27.:35:31.

are, are they properly credible, do they make sure that they meet the

:35:32.:35:37.

test the public... You just have to bite the bottom lip now, you

:35:38.:35:42.

privately, a lot of you think your party is heading for catastrophe. I

:35:43.:35:47.

don't think it is acceptable that we have this level of performance,

:35:48.:35:52.

currently, I am sure Ken agrees the opinion polls, and those by

:35:53.:35:54.

by-election were just not good enough. We have to show leadership,

:35:55.:35:58.

certainly on Brexit, hold the Government to account. Attack them

:35:59.:36:03.

for the crisis in the NHS, yes and on the economy, to deliver credible

:36:04.:36:07.

policy force, example on defending national security and making sure we

:36:08.:36:10.

stand up for humanitarian intervention. Final point, your

:36:11.:36:15.

party has lost Scotland. You are now in third place behind the stories --

:36:16.:36:20.

Tories. I never thought I would be able to say that in a broadcast, if

:36:21.:36:26.

you lose the north too, you are heading for the smallest

:36:27.:36:28.

Parliamentary Labour Party since the war, aren't you. But that is our

:36:29.:36:34.

weakness, we in the 13 years of the last Labour Government neglected

:36:35.:36:36.

rebuilding our manufacturing in the way the Germans have done. Millions

:36:37.:36:40.

of people used to have good job, we used to have 8 million jobs in

:36:41.:36:45.

manufacturing it is down two. It is in the north, that Jeremy's strategy

:36:46.:36:49.

has the most relevance, of actually getting the investment and

:36:50.:36:53.

rebuilding. All right. We will see. Come back in 12 months if not before

:36:54.:36:55.

and we will check it out. It's just gone 11.35,

:36:56.:36:59.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:37:00.:37:01.

in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20

:37:02.:37:04.

minutes, we'll be talking about Boris Johnson's tour

:37:05.:37:07.

of the Middle East after straying off message, again,

:37:08.:37:09.

and the protestors attempting First though, the Sunday

:37:10.:37:11.

Politics where you are. Welcome to Sunday Politics South,

:37:12.:37:21.

my name is Peter Henley. On today's show, the

:37:22.:37:23.

government wants to give local councils powers

:37:24.:37:25.

to set routes for bus operators and to decide

:37:26.:37:27.

on But crucially they wont be

:37:28.:37:28.

allowed to run the buses So what will that mean for rural

:37:29.:37:34.

services already hit by First, let's meet the two

:37:35.:37:38.

politicians who are here for the Rowenna Davis was the

:37:39.:37:44.

candidate for a leader in And of course Donna

:37:45.:37:48.

Jones is leader of the Conservative City Council

:37:49.:37:53.

in Portsmouth for the Conservatives. Now there is this proposal you are

:37:54.:37:56.

teaching at the moment, having stood for Parliament, and it is for

:37:57.:38:00.

schools in Portsmouth. There is this proposal

:38:01.:38:03.

from independent schools to try and provide 10,000 places at cost,

:38:04.:38:07.

they say, with the cost That sounds like a bargain

:38:08.:38:09.

for the government. ?5,000 per term

:38:10.:38:18.

at Portsmouth Grammar School, they will do it

:38:19.:38:19.

for ?5,000 for the year. I think that private

:38:20.:38:22.

schools do do some good for a lot of children

:38:23.:38:27.

our country and I think it is great that they want to open up a little

:38:28.:38:31.

But there are also some costs with private schools, firstly,

:38:32.:38:34.

the stop children getting to know each other from different

:38:35.:38:37.

backgrounds, so people from richer backgrounds can mix with those from

:38:38.:38:41.

different backgrounds and vice versa.

:38:42.:38:43.

And secondly, it means that you can buy a certain amount of

:38:44.:38:46.

Now this proposal which would essentially open up the doors

:38:47.:38:49.

of private schools a little bit more has obviously got to be welcomed,

:38:50.:38:52.

but you still have that massive division and those huge costs in our

:38:53.:38:55.

society that remain entrenched under that private school system.

:38:56.:38:58.

and this is going to be a means tested thing, this will be good.

:38:59.:39:05.

Looking from the point of view you would say, yeah, sounds good.

:39:06.:39:08.

For those parents that is absolutely fantastic, but you always have to

:39:09.:39:11.

ask the question, what about everybody else who can get in?

:39:12.:39:14.

If they are going to test those students before they come

:39:15.:39:20.

in and they will only take perhaps the cleverest students, then what

:39:21.:39:23.

The then therefore lose out on the talent

:39:24.:39:26.

chance to have different students in the playgrounds.

:39:27.:39:33.

10,000 is quite a lot as well, we are known around the

:39:34.:39:36.

world for the quality of education and private schools, the part of

:39:37.:39:39.

Isn't just an extension of the Grammar schools principal

:39:40.:39:42.

I think it is about money, I think it's about the

:39:43.:39:47.

fact that the majority of independent schools in the country

:39:48.:39:50.

are registered charities and I think the government is looking at the

:39:51.:39:52.

charity status for what are essentially profit-making

:39:53.:39:54.

And yes they are education providers, and I think

:39:55.:39:57.

that what the Independent schools commission has done is gone back to

:39:58.:40:00.

the government, post the publication of the green paper has

:40:01.:40:03.

set actually we want to keep the charity status

:40:04.:40:05.

because it is very tax efficient for us.

:40:06.:40:09.

And to offset the fact that we are getting

:40:10.:40:11.

a benefit from the Inland Revenue, we will look to dedicate 10,000

:40:12.:40:14.

children from across the country who otherwise wouldn't

:40:15.:40:16.

be able to afford to have an independent education.

:40:17.:40:20.

It is being done by hints and nods and

:40:21.:40:22.

maybe a bit of assistance and lends the minibus

:40:23.:40:24.

out of people use the

:40:25.:40:25.

pool, isn't this much more straightforward and a better deal

:40:26.:40:28.

Better than building new grammar schools, maybe.

:40:29.:40:32.

I am not sure the government will agree to the

:40:33.:40:35.

proposals that have been put forward by the independent schools

:40:36.:40:37.

commission, and I think as a consequence the Green paper may well

:40:38.:40:40.

But we do have a Chancellor is firm, he is fixated on making

:40:41.:40:47.

sure the UK exchequer gets the best deal it can and I think it is

:40:48.:40:51.

something that we really do need to watch and wait and see

:40:52.:40:54.

what happens with this one because I think that a

:40:55.:40:56.

reduction in the size of the independent sector across the UK

:40:57.:40:59.

could mean people such as myself managing local education authorities

:41:00.:41:01.

struggle considerably if we suddenly have to take on huge amount of more

:41:02.:41:05.

It would be a bit upset, wouldn't it, for the whole

:41:06.:41:11.

Yes, it would be a huge change is that proposal actually

:41:12.:41:15.

ended up going forward but I do think, this

:41:16.:41:18.

lot about private schools, a lot of that grammar schools, it hasn't

:41:19.:41:21.

really talked much about what it is going to do what we are changing

:41:22.:41:25.

with the mainstream compressors education system in this country,

:41:26.:41:28.

which is where most of her children going.

:41:29.:41:31.

I do support the Academy provision because what happened a few years

:41:32.:41:36.

ago was that the ability to effectively sacked underperforming

:41:37.:41:38.

headteachers and moved from councils as the local education authorities

:41:39.:41:40.

but the school improvement statutory requirement remained with us, so at

:41:41.:41:43.

the moment we are in a hybrid situation where we can't actually

:41:44.:41:48.

remove headteachers are senior management teams that are not

:41:49.:41:50.

performing like it we are judged by Ofstead if we are underperforming

:41:51.:41:53.

LEA, something has to change and that is why we have been

:41:54.:41:59.

encouraging academies because with an academy

:42:00.:42:00.

provider of can remove a head if they are not performing.

:42:01.:42:03.

Now this is being considered as a visionary, something that will mean

:42:04.:42:14.

shorter journey times, improvements to business

:42:15.:42:15.

and employment prospects and help with the housing crisis.

:42:16.:42:17.

Linking the cities of Oxford and Cambridge, the new route is

:42:18.:42:27.

inevitably being dubbed the Varsity line, or the brain train.

:42:28.:42:29.

It is actually restoring a line that was

:42:30.:42:32.

But in a first for the rail industry the track and the actual service

:42:33.:42:37.

will be run by the same company rather than split between an

:42:38.:42:39.

I am going to establish East West rail as a new and separate

:42:40.:42:50.

organisation to accelerate the permission

:42:51.:42:51.

is needed to reopen the

:42:52.:42:53.

route and secure private sector involvement in design, build and

:42:54.:42:55.

operate the route as an integrated organisation.

:42:56.:43:00.

This east-west rail organisation will be established

:43:01.:43:01.

early in the New Year as chaired by the former chief executive of

:43:02.:43:05.

Joining us now is David Williams from the Green party in Oxfordshire,

:43:06.:43:09.

It is not just joining Oxford and Cambridge, is it?

:43:10.:43:13.

It is not just a railway line, it is a kind of curve of

:43:14.:43:23.

affluence and leading-edge development without any doubt, it

:43:24.:43:24.

brings together actually about seven different universities, all have

:43:25.:43:27.

spin off industries into science parks and mix them all together.

:43:28.:43:29.

There are employment hearts of the way along

:43:30.:43:31.

this particular line and

:43:32.:43:32.

it has been fought for four generations, really.

:43:33.:43:42.

And there will be little hubs going out?

:43:43.:43:46.

Yes, we got from Oxford to Bicester at the moment just about to come

:43:47.:43:51.

And then other parts are operating, taking freight

:43:52.:43:58.

trains at the moment. So part of the old line which was

:43:59.:44:01.

there until 1966 are still around and still operating.

:44:02.:44:06.

It is a matter of joining the whole thing up again.

:44:07.:44:09.

But it is more than a railway line, it is to do with developing a way

:44:10.:44:12.

for commuters to move between these employment

:44:13.:44:14.

hubs which are all the

:44:15.:44:15.

way along, whether it is Milton Keynes or Bedford

:44:16.:44:18.

are the areas that really would benefit tremendously from this.

:44:19.:44:27.

You have argued for more public transport, and here is happening

:44:28.:44:30.

despite all of the talk of everything going to

:44:31.:44:32.

and the Midlands agent, we getting something down here.

:44:33.:44:36.

I would prefer them to do both, actually, a

:44:37.:44:38.

northern powerhouse, there are areas they are ready,

:44:39.:44:40.

the simple principle could be applied just as easily.

:44:41.:44:45.

We've got this, but the problem with it is

:44:46.:44:49.

that Grayling wants it to be a privatised system where the

:44:50.:44:51.

operators who are using the engines and the carriages are integral to

:44:52.:44:58.

those who are actually doing the railway line.

:44:59.:45:01.

Surely, what he says is they are overloaded.

:45:02.:45:06.

Of course they can cope, I am sure they

:45:07.:45:10.

have put papers in saying we can do this, what you could do here is

:45:11.:45:13.

actively fragment the service because you have real track to

:45:14.:45:16.

maintenance and making sure everything is safe, when the old

:45:17.:45:18.

system was there it was quite unsafe.

:45:19.:45:22.

But if you have this little bit with just totally privatised it

:45:23.:45:25.

will stand out like a sore thumb in the whole system.

:45:26.:45:32.

Something has to be done today is go through, we have

:45:33.:45:34.

seen lots of delays with what Railtrack are up to.

:45:35.:45:37.

Do you support this idea of one company running the

:45:38.:45:40.

I do, because ultimately it is about money and the

:45:41.:45:44.

government now that this east-west connectivity between Oxford and

:45:45.:45:47.

If they waited and it went into the list of

:45:48.:45:51.

government Network Rail schemes it would be years and they don't want

:45:52.:45:54.

to wait so rather than waiting they know

:45:55.:45:57.

there is economic growth and

:45:58.:46:01.

productivity to come from connecting the east

:46:02.:46:03.

and the West, the top of

:46:04.:46:05.

And it can happen without giving it to real

:46:06.:46:10.

Is it went to Railtrack and the government

:46:11.:46:14.

has to put money into it so by opening to private investments...

:46:15.:46:17.

Or foreign investment, you are bringing

:46:18.:46:19.

the scheme forward and that is surely in the UK Exchequer.

:46:20.:46:22.

There have been serious problems before

:46:23.:46:23.

with that complete unity of the privatised system, this was

:46:24.:46:26.

associated with a lot of the problems are potters bar and

:46:27.:46:28.

Hatfield crashes, or of the reasons we brought in Network Rail was

:46:29.:46:31.

because the needed to be a greater understanding of separation of those

:46:32.:46:34.

powers to ensure safety for passengers.

:46:35.:46:35.

I'm not entirely sure that what we are doing is going back

:46:36.:46:39.

to stop it is not Railtrack, it is Network Rail.

:46:40.:46:42.

Railtrack and the very, very bad record with things

:46:43.:46:44.

These are massive crashes and they were

:46:45.:46:52.

all traced back to one source which was underfunding

:46:53.:46:55.

When the introduced Network Rail the various new rules

:46:56.:47:00.

were introduced about how much they must begin to

:47:01.:47:03.

I think it could be fatally dangerous, all of

:47:04.:47:06.

Seriously, you are worried about the safety?

:47:07.:47:09.

If the main thing, taking your theme of it is about

:47:10.:47:13.

money, if it is about profit-making, it is about profit-making then

:47:14.:47:16.

cutting costs is a major element in that and the pressure to cut costs

:47:17.:47:19.

This is part of a wider scheme, isn't it,

:47:20.:47:25.

across the government, that there should be handing more

:47:26.:47:27.

power to private operators who already run a

:47:28.:47:29.

very expensive highly overcrowded service.

:47:30.:47:32.

The other option, put it to the back of the queue and wait

:47:33.:47:40.

another 15 years to get the capital investment.

:47:41.:47:42.

It is not about making profit, it is about the capital and

:47:43.:47:45.

the government would need to give to Network Rail to build it and I'm

:47:46.:47:48.

confident that any private operator working in this country, building

:47:49.:47:51.

and operating a new piece of rail will absolutely be compliant with

:47:52.:47:55.

Yes, the Network Rail was frought with issues, sorry, Railtrack,

:47:56.:48:01.

but this is not Railtrack, this could be

:48:02.:48:03.

overseas investment coming into the UK,

:48:04.:48:04.

speeding up the growth area for

:48:05.:48:06.

When it comes to investment from somewhere

:48:07.:48:15.

else rather than government, what we have had over the last few

:48:16.:48:18.

years, Deutsche Bank in SNCF, we have had

:48:19.:48:20.

that really is, they have taken stakes in the existing railway

:48:21.:48:24.

What is going to happen after Brexit with them?

:48:25.:48:30.

They have been the major source of external investment.

:48:31.:48:35.

Really what has got to happen here is the government have got to come

:48:36.:48:38.

to grips with the investment which is needed, we have given 110

:48:39.:48:41.

Wouldn't you rather take it happening now?

:48:42.:48:46.

I want it now, we have been campaigning...

:48:47.:48:48.

Isn't an alternative, really, is there?

:48:49.:48:55.

Of course it is, it is basically the government simply

:48:56.:49:02.

going to provide the investment to get this done and

:49:03.:49:04.

If they have a private company walking around looking for

:49:05.:49:08.

That is what happened with the Oxford to

:49:09.:49:11.

Bicester line, at the end of the day it ended up as the government giving

:49:12.:49:15.

It is at least going ahead as we understand it at

:49:16.:49:19.

Staying with the transport team, remember the old saying about

:49:20.:49:24.

waiting ages for us to come and then you get the onec?

:49:25.:49:27.

A government bill going through Parliament is supposed

:49:28.:49:29.

to help with that by giving local councils more power to control local

:49:30.:49:32.

But as a reporter has been finding out, there is some doubt about

:49:33.:49:36.

whether it will work so well outside of the larger towns and cities.

:49:37.:49:49.

In the old days, local councils ran pretty much all local bus companies

:49:50.:49:52.

until deregulation and the privatisation boom of the 1980s.

:49:53.:49:59.

That led to issues over timetables and ticketing between many different

:50:00.:50:02.

operating companies and non-profit-making writs of election

:50:03.:50:03.

rural areas being dropped, leaving bus

:50:04.:50:07.

passengers at the mercy of the

:50:08.:50:08.

Now there is a move for councils to take back more

:50:09.:50:13.

control with the bus services Bill currently going through Parliament.

:50:14.:50:17.

The bill gives local councils greater powers to set routes for bus

:50:18.:50:20.

operators to run, to decide on fairer level since

:50:21.:50:22.

the introduction of smart ticketing and other

:50:23.:50:24.

In Dorset, some innovations contained

:50:25.:50:31.

We've now issued smart tickets to all of our schoolchildren

:50:32.:50:37.

so we now know when to use the bus and when

:50:38.:50:39.

That gives us the opportunity of saying, well

:50:40.:50:43.

So other people can use those and purchase those season tickets.

:50:44.:50:50.

This rapid transit scheme in Gosport is

:50:51.:50:52.

being hailed as a success of collaborative working, the 20

:50:53.:50:54.

million per project with buses by passing traffic on congested

:50:55.:50:57.

Passenger growth has been phenomenal, just in

:50:58.:51:05.

the past two years alone, we have seen 70% more people

:51:06.:51:08.

travelling but the really important thing about it

:51:09.:51:10.

is that people will use the service, 20% of them used to use the car and

:51:11.:51:14.

That is all well and good in the towns and

:51:15.:51:18.

Here in Bridport there is no sort of job losses serving the towns and

:51:19.:51:25.

conurbations, east and west of here, but as with much of the countryside,

:51:26.:51:28.

out of the rural villages it is a very different story.

:51:29.:51:31.

And for some the bus services Bill is not going to solve

:51:32.:51:37.

the problem of councils cutting bus subsidies.

:51:38.:51:40.

The bus network is in its death throes, there is another

:51:41.:51:46.

million pounds due to be cut from it within the next few months, if you

:51:47.:51:49.

live in her village are absolutely stymied.

:51:50.:51:51.

In Bradpole, where I'm standing, the 73 is due to be cut.

:51:52.:51:54.

That will affect the ability of local children going past to get to

:51:55.:51:57.

It is going to affect the lives of hundreds of

:51:58.:52:03.

elderly people in the villages who rely on that bus to get to market,

:52:04.:52:06.

For Roz and others, the two community bus

:52:07.:52:10.

schemes currently running in Dorset are inadequate.

:52:11.:52:14.

If you look at what is happening in the health service

:52:15.:52:17.

at the moment where GP surgeries in rural areas are likely to be

:52:18.:52:20.

towns, how are some of those elderly people in the villages who don't

:52:21.:52:25.

have access to their own transport going to be able to get to the

:52:26.:52:29.

This is a major issue, it is important that we find ways of

:52:30.:52:36.

What Roz wants is the local council to

:52:37.:52:40.

run its own bus company as they do profitably in Redding.

:52:41.:52:43.

The problem is, there is a clause in the bus

:52:44.:52:46.

bill which prevents any new scheme like that.

:52:47.:52:48.

So inevitably some communities will slip through the

:52:49.:52:52.

It might have been the solution had you got sufficient funds to be

:52:53.:52:58.

able to set it up in the first place.

:52:59.:53:00.

The difficulty we have is that we don't have those depths of

:53:01.:53:03.

Had we set up a private bus Company some

:53:04.:53:07.

years ago we would be in a different situation.

:53:08.:53:09.

But we are not Redding and we have to cut our cloth

:53:10.:53:12.

To try and resolve at the council will

:53:13.:53:15.

match fund up to ?5,000 for communities to set-up their own

:53:16.:53:18.

The mayor's office already has the power to dictate to bus

:53:19.:53:25.

services which services to run and when.

:53:26.:53:27.

So is that the ticket across-the-board?

:53:28.:53:30.

We have concerns over train pricing, we believe that

:53:31.:53:34.

the private sector working in partnership with the best way

:53:35.:53:36.

It allows private sector operators to innovate and do things

:53:37.:53:40.

like as happened in other parts of the South, in terms

:53:41.:53:44.

Taking that a further step forward we have seen passenger

:53:45.:53:48.

growth where really strong partnership works, that has to say

:53:49.:53:50.

Rural MPs can expect to be lobbied hard when the bill goes to

:53:51.:53:55.

the Commons in the New Year, but for some the bus services Bill

:53:56.:54:00.

is not the sort of fare they wanted served

:54:01.:54:02.

You could almost say it was a turkey.

:54:03.:54:09.

Rowenna, isn't this the place really want

:54:10.:54:11.

You want to have the appropriate bus service, not

:54:12.:54:16.

necessarily the system they have in London or anywhere else.

:54:17.:54:20.

Roz articulated the need for local bus

:54:21.:54:21.

companies really beautifully, so many people depend on them, so many

:54:22.:54:24.

people use buses than a real journeys for example every day in

:54:25.:54:27.

Absolutely essential for work, for all the people, for

:54:28.:54:33.

children, it is right at the heart of the community.

:54:34.:54:35.

Therefore it would make sense to me as a local, or

:54:36.:54:38.

provided service rather than something done centrally.

:54:39.:54:41.

That is what is so crazy about the current

:54:42.:54:43.

bus services Bill that is being looked at right now, that it says

:54:44.:54:46.

sure if you have a mayor you can set up the services, but as it stands if

:54:47.:54:50.

you're just a local authority without a mayor you can't.

:54:51.:54:52.

And if you are somewhere like Redding when the

:54:53.:54:57.

council is run it for years they have the money and infrastructure.

:54:58.:55:00.

Redding and Nottingham are both local authority run, they are in

:55:01.:55:03.

control services in the both really popular and have one great awards.

:55:04.:55:06.

There is one caveat I would add, because there is some things in

:55:07.:55:09.

assumption in central government that if you give something to local

:55:10.:55:12.

authority it will therefore be closer to the people in therefore

:55:13.:55:14.

serve them, but actually there is a real difference

:55:15.:55:17.

Some may provide them well if they have true

:55:18.:55:23.

passenger voice and true worker voice but others may still seem very

:55:24.:55:26.

different so you cant assume that just because you give some thing to

:55:27.:55:29.

local authority that it is automatically going to be better for

:55:30.:55:32.

There has to be worked on that local authority, too, as I'm

:55:33.:55:39.

The bus services Bill itself, the printable

:55:40.:55:45.

that I welcome very much because actually this

:55:46.:55:47.

is about giving local authorities the ability to franchise

:55:48.:55:49.

buses, to work in partnership and that is exactly what should be

:55:50.:55:52.

In Portsmouth we are paying around ?5 million a year to

:55:53.:55:56.

bus companies in subsidies, in Southampton it is near six million

:55:57.:55:59.

and that is not a sustainable position going forward.

:56:00.:56:01.

We don't want to lose the vulnerable routes

:56:02.:56:05.

as we have heard, particularly the semirural and rural ones

:56:06.:56:08.

so giving councils the ability to franchise is

:56:09.:56:10.

What the House of Lords has done is put

:56:11.:56:15.

forward an amendment to the Green paper, it has been through its

:56:16.:56:18.

reading of the Commons, it has been through the Lords and is going back

:56:19.:56:21.

to the Commons now that they have actually put forward an amendment to

:56:22.:56:24.

say that all local transport authorities should be allowed to

:56:25.:56:27.

franchise, not just ones with a mayoral combined authority.

:56:28.:56:29.

I think you would rather have a combined

:56:30.:56:35.

Yes, in Portsmouth and the Isle of Wight have been working

:56:36.:56:38.

with the government, we have an in principle agreement

:56:39.:56:42.

for a solend deall and in the solent deal it includes the

:56:43.:56:45.

Routes are closing now, on the Isle of

:56:46.:56:52.

Wight which is very reliant on its buses,

:56:53.:56:54.

and the trees that it does have, they need an answer now.

:56:55.:56:57.

They do and that is why we need to get on

:56:58.:56:59.

with our combined authority ASAP, we were hoping

:57:00.:57:01.

the Autumn Statement, I am now hopeful of the last budget in March

:57:02.:57:05.

2017 because it is done, we have made a false admission to the

:57:06.:57:09.

Secretary of State, we did that the 23rd of October,

:57:10.:57:11.

we have been through an eight-week consultation,

:57:12.:57:13.

three councils we just mentioned, we are few

:57:14.:57:15.

Now our regular round-up of the political week

:57:16.:57:24.

Fining beggars isn't working in Southampton.

:57:25.:57:33.

I have a ?100 fine because I had my hat out, on the floor.

:57:34.:57:36.

You just don't know which ones are genuine, do you?

:57:37.:57:45.

The council now admits the fines aren't being paid.

:57:46.:57:48.

We need to look at what else we can do to solve this national problem.

:57:49.:57:52.

It is cold on the streets but colder in some elderly people's houses.

:57:53.:57:55.

Redding Council think a cold alarm could help.

:57:56.:57:57.

This is one of the worst areas in England for excess winter deaths.

:57:58.:58:00.

Portsmouth said farewell to a grand old lady this week.

:58:01.:58:03.

Amateur MP wants to scrap yearly council elections,

:58:04.:58:13.

his Bill would make them every four years instead.

:58:14.:58:19.

And in Oxfordshire school wants a change to the law making seat

:58:20.:58:22.

After 11 children were injured in Woodstock last month.

:58:23.:58:36.

Now that Bill to make it elections every four years in councils

:58:37.:58:39.

would also make it first past the post in places like London.

:58:40.:58:42.

First of all I am against the proposal in principle.

:58:43.:58:46.

If local council now they have to face the people and ask the vote

:58:47.:58:54.

every single year then they are more likely to because at them

:58:55.:58:57.

and responsive to them, more likely to engage with those

:58:58.:58:59.

conversations and I think at a time when politics and politicians feel

:59:00.:59:02.

quite distant from the people it is really important to do

:59:03.:59:05.

everything we can to insure that dialogue is continuing.

:59:06.:59:13.

And there is a lot of voters, UK voters in Portsmouth who feel

:59:14.:59:16.

that the votes are wasted in first past the post, is that...

:59:17.:59:19.

Running the city and one of the Conservative cities

:59:20.:59:21.

I think that four-yearly elections is much better,

:59:22.:59:25.

when a council is elected even an annual elections they don't face

:59:26.:59:28.

the electorate every year, deface them once every four years

:59:29.:59:30.

and four-yearly elections, so all in all out for the whole

:59:31.:59:33.

council means you do not get short cameras and decisions,

:59:34.:59:35.

because so often councils are making bad decisions

:59:36.:59:39.

because they are so worried about how it is going to affect them

:59:40.:59:43.

in the polls and that is not always what is best for the services

:59:44.:59:46.

and service delivery in cancel so I support four-yearly elections.

:59:47.:59:50.

Just quickly, HMS Illustrious, a VIP guest for the new one coming?

:59:51.:59:54.

We were hoping for the Prime Minister and other heads of state

:59:55.:00:02.

from other countries, we have the Carrier Alliance

:00:03.:00:07.

going on with America but next year is the year of the carrier.

:00:08.:00:10.

still the biggest factor. We are running out of time.

:00:11.:00:16.

Now, Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson was rebuked

:00:17.:00:30.

by Downing Street this week - yes, again - after the Guardian

:00:31.:00:33.

revealed he had accused Saudi Arabia of being among countries engaged

:00:34.:00:36.

in fighting "proxy wars" in the Middle East, breaking

:00:37.:00:38.

the Foreign Office's convention of not criticising a key UK ally

:00:39.:00:40.

in the region and annoying the prime minister who'd just returned

:00:41.:00:43.

The Defence Secretary Michael Fallon was asked about it

:00:44.:00:50.

And let's be very clear about this, the way some of his remarks

:00:51.:00:58.

were reported seemed to imply we didn't support the right

:00:59.:01:00.

of Saudi Arabia to defend itself, and it is being attacked by Houthi

:01:01.:01:03.

terrorists from over the border with Yemen,

:01:04.:01:05.

didn't support what Saudi is doing in leading the campaign to restore

:01:06.:01:08.

Some of the reporting led people to think that, and that is all...

:01:09.:01:16.

This was simply the way it was reported and interpreted.

:01:17.:01:18.

The way it was interpreted left people with the impression

:01:19.:01:20.

that we didn't support Saudi Arabia and we do.

:01:21.:01:29.

Well, Mr Johnson has been in the Saudi capital

:01:30.:01:32.

Riyadh this morning, so how's he been received?

:01:33.:01:33.

Our security correspondent Frank Gardner is in neighbouring

:01:34.:01:35.

Bahrain, where Mr Johnson was earlier in the weekend.

:01:36.:01:42.

It has probably been a long time since there has been such interest

:01:43.:01:48.

in a British Foreign Secretary visiting the gulf region. What are

:01:49.:01:52.

the political elites there making of it all? Well, they think to be

:01:53.:01:59.

honest it is a bit of a storm in a tea cup this is a bit of a Whitehall

:02:00.:02:03.

story, I think a lot of people I have spoken to tend to believe that

:02:04.:02:08.

Number Ten have made such a fuss about this, that it has created a

:02:09.:02:12.

story in itself. That said, though, I think that behind the scenes there

:02:13.:02:17.

was a certain amount of damage limitation taking place between

:02:18.:02:22.

London and Riyadh, a bit of smoothing of feathers and reassuring

:02:23.:02:26.

and the Stade Saudis tell me they are reassured the message they are

:02:27.:02:30.

taking is. Coming from Number Ten and they are not taking Boris

:02:31.:02:35.

Johnson's comments to heart. He is in the dam, he has met the king, I

:02:36.:02:39.

tweet add picture of that just a few minutes ago. He has been meeting

:02:40.:02:46.

Crown Prince, and he is now meeting the Foreign Minister, so the Saudis

:02:47.:02:49.

got an opportunity to brief him according to their vision of the

:02:50.:02:53.

Middle East. They will share their security concern, which is not just

:02:54.:02:57.

what is going on in Yemen, but they are very concerned about what they

:02:58.:03:01.

see as Iranian expansionism, that has been a theme here at this

:03:02.:03:05.

conference in Bahrain that Boris Johnson addressed only a day or two

:03:06.:03:10.

ago. If we put aside Mr Johnson's supposed gaffes or even the Downing

:03:11.:03:14.

Street slapping down of him, we have had the Prime Minister in the region

:03:15.:03:20.

earlier this week, we have got Mr Johnson there now, can we yet divine

:03:21.:03:27.

what the May Government strategy is in the Golf? -- Guff. In three

:03:28.:03:34.

words, in Boris Johnson's words Britain is back. He was very quick

:03:35.:03:43.

to say not in a jingoistic running up flags, new imperial list way,

:03:44.:03:46.

although that is Howley be seen by some. He gave a very forceful speech

:03:47.:03:53.

which seemed to go down well the gulf hosts here on Friday night

:03:54.:03:58.

which said Britain made a strategic mistake in, after 1968 in

:03:59.:04:05.

withdrawing east of Suez and it will reverse that decision, and invest ?3

:04:06.:04:09.

billion over the next ten years in building up its military not bases

:04:10.:04:15.

exactly but facilities -- facilities that are here in this part of the

:04:16.:04:18.

world. There are currently 15 hundred hundred British servicemen

:04:19.:04:22.

and women in this region, seven warships and so on. It isn't

:04:23.:04:26.

entirely true to say Britain withdrew east of Suez because we

:04:27.:04:30.

have had a military presence on and off here, the RAF had a base here in

:04:31.:04:36.

Bahrain during the Gulf War of 91. In 2003, of course, British planes

:04:37.:04:42.

and troops deployed from this area, but he and Theresa May are both

:04:43.:04:48.

saying post-Brexit, Britain's big emphasis or one of the big pushes is

:04:49.:04:52.

going to be to redouble its ties with gulf Arab nations, that isn't

:04:53.:04:58.

going to come as an easy bit of new, I think, to human rights campaigners

:04:59.:05:02.

and anti-arms campaigners because a large part of the ?7 billion of

:05:03.:05:08.

bilateral trade Britain did with Saudi Arabia comes from arms deals

:05:09.:05:12.

and those arms are being used in the conflict in Yemen, in some cases

:05:13.:05:17.

with tragic consequences. Thank you very much for talking to us.

:05:18.:05:23.

Instead of concentrating on Mr Johnson's gaffes, or Downing Street

:05:24.:05:30.

reaction to it. Frank Gardner there has just given us a really important

:05:31.:05:35.

development, or explained what the British are up to there now. They

:05:36.:05:40.

want to be back in the gulf big time. Isn't that something we should

:05:41.:05:43.

be debating and discussing? It is fascinating. It is yet another

:05:44.:05:47.

example post-Brexit I would say this is someone who voted to Brexit, that

:05:48.:05:51.

the world is changing, and Britain's role is going to be transformed

:05:52.:05:58.

post-Brexit. I mean just on the Boris point, I completely agree, I

:05:59.:06:02.

think a lot of it is ridiculous, in a Whitehall belt way stuff, but I

:06:03.:06:07.

think what is really important about it, is that Number Ten feel

:06:08.:06:12.

threatened by him, and the reason that these ridiculous gaffes and

:06:13.:06:16.

many of them are not even gaffes are pounced upon is he is the main rival

:06:17.:06:22.

for the Crown, so it is high level power play politics, and it is May

:06:23.:06:26.

trying to keep him in his place. What do you make though, of Britain

:06:27.:06:31.

is back in the gulf? That is the big story, is it not. Utterly bizarre,

:06:32.:06:36.

post imperial fantasy, the idea we are back east of Suez? We are

:06:37.:06:40.

breaking off from our closest ally, most like us, the rest of Europe,

:06:41.:06:45.

democratic, decent human rights country, and instead we are allying

:06:46.:06:51.

ourself to perilous, dangerous, unpleasant countries... Why should

:06:52.:06:57.

we be back in the gulf? If that is the trade off, these are, you know,

:06:58.:07:05.

these renasty kingdoms, petty unpleasant and unstable countries.

:07:06.:07:09.

Don't we have to keep the straits open otherwise the oil supply

:07:10.:07:13.

collapses and the world economy will go into the worst recession

:07:14.:07:17.

depression ever? Don't we have to be involved in that We do, and I think

:07:18.:07:22.

what happens is if we leave Europe and we need trade everywhere else,

:07:23.:07:26.

we have to travel the world on our knees begging for friends from the

:07:27.:07:30.

most unsavoury people, where ever they are, whether it is... You keep

:07:31.:07:37.

saying we are leaving Europe, that is a geographic impossibility.

:07:38.:07:40.

Britain is part of Europe, we are the... Not what Liam Fox is saying.

:07:41.:07:45.

The key power in Nato, we are leaving the European Union, that is

:07:46.:07:49.

a different Tring from Europe. I am trying to move away from Mr Johnson,

:07:50.:07:56.

or even Downing Street to... You got yourself into a Brexit row.

:07:57.:08:00.

Everything is through the prism of Brexit, even what you have for

:08:01.:08:04.

breakfast, when you mix up the word like I did last week. What do you

:08:05.:08:08.

make of what Frank Gardner told us? I am somewhere between the two. It

:08:09.:08:13.

is a nighs the line say we are back in the Middle East and we will take

:08:14.:08:16.

this part of the world seriously, the truth is our military is almost

:08:17.:08:21.

tiny, it is smaller than it was in the Napoleonic wars, that is not a

:08:22.:08:26.

huge amount more. Of course there S one of the two new aircraft

:08:27.:08:31.

carriers, that will be deployed in the gulf, to help the Americans keep

:08:32.:08:36.

the straits of her muz open, because it is in Europe's interest, not just

:08:37.:08:44.

Britains, Europe's interest that these straits stay open, which is

:08:45.:08:49.

more so than America. That is what FRANK was talking about. That is no

:08:50.:08:54.

change, British foreign policy has been keeping the straits open... Now

:08:55.:09:01.

we have the ability do it. We don't have an aircraft aier at the moment.

:09:02.:09:07.

Nor do we have the fleet of ships it needs. It is a great thing to be

:09:08.:09:15.

trade morgue with the Nice, to be turning -- Middle East, to be

:09:16.:09:19.

turning round more tax revenues and the like. Even selling weapons. I

:09:20.:09:23.

don't know what more can be done. You look at what has happened. BBC

:09:24.:09:27.

has had horrific reports from the Yemen and if you look at what the

:09:28.:09:31.

weapons are being used for, is that the trade we want? Right. Let us

:09:32.:09:38.

move on. Mr Corbyn was giving a speech yesterday but he was

:09:39.:09:40.

inter#ru79ded by Peter Tatchell. -- interrupted.

:09:41.:09:42.

Peter, could we leave this to the questions please?

:09:43.:09:54.

Peter, we are trying to make a speech here and then

:09:55.:09:57.

Was Peter Tatchell right do that yesterday? It is a bit of a

:09:58.:10:11.

distraction really. Jeremy Corbyn 17% in the polled is not going to be

:10:12.:10:16.

able to change... You mean his personal rating. If you want to do

:10:17.:10:20.

something about Syria you ought to be addressing the Government rather

:10:21.:10:26.

than a failing Labour leader. Peter Tatchell's line was Labour in

:10:27.:10:29.

general, Mr Corbyn in particular had not been vocal enough in condemning

:10:30.:10:35.

what the Russians and their Assad allies are doing in Aleppo. It was

:10:36.:10:42.

interesting Mr Corbyn had to ask Emily Thornberry if and when had

:10:43.:10:45.

they condemned what the Russians were doing? It was unclear. Other

:10:46.:10:53.

than Mrs Thornbury herself. There is a fascinating fault line in politics

:10:54.:10:59.

which is the Trump administration, the way in which parts of the

:11:00.:11:03.

British left have made themselves useful idiots once again for the

:11:04.:11:08.

Kremlin and it its policies. I think more broadly, you consider all the

:11:09.:11:11.

things we have been discussing, it is a national tragedy what is

:11:12.:11:15.

happening to the Labour Party. You don't know whether to laugh or cry

:11:16.:11:21.

watching that event. Corbyn was at a stop the war rally event only last

:11:22.:11:25.

week, and they of course are very close to the Kremlin, they blame the

:11:26.:11:30.

west, well they blame the west much more... They always blame the west.

:11:31.:11:37.

And not the Russians. I agree Jeremy Corbyn having to check with Emily

:11:38.:11:42.

Thornberry what the Labour Party's policy was on bombing Aleppo... If

:11:43.:11:47.

and when they condemned it. He needs to no better. The fact that we are

:11:48.:11:53.

talking about what was a pretty small scale protest, rather than

:11:54.:11:57.

anything Corbyn said, shows he wasn't saying anything relevant. We

:11:58.:12:02.

will get a huge amount of tweet saying the BBC are anti-Corbyn. I

:12:03.:12:05.

understand that, that shouldn't intimidate us from saying, from

:12:06.:12:09.

analysing what is happening, and here is one yard stick, of course it

:12:10.:12:13.

is fundamentally the Government's choice, but it could be an indicator

:12:14.:12:17.

of whether the Labour Party is relevant or not in only issues, in

:12:18.:12:23.

reason pert Murdoch is making a take over bid for all of Sky and so far

:12:24.:12:27.

you would have to bet, policy, that it is going to get through pretty

:12:28.:12:32.

much unscathed. It is extraordinary. It is connected with Leveson, and

:12:33.:12:36.

the fact that that has disappeared. That the idea of restraining the

:12:37.:12:39.

press in any way at all, and virtual will I the whole of the press is

:12:40.:12:44.

behind that, and it seems to go with allowing what wasn't allowed before.

:12:45.:12:50.

He was judged as unfit before. He is as unfit now, to control that much

:12:51.:12:55.

of the media, and as he was when he made the last bid for Sky. It is

:12:56.:12:59.

time people stood up and said so. You look at the press he runs, the

:13:00.:13:04.

cultural effect he has has on this country which has been appalling,

:13:05.:13:09.

you know about this. Tom, I better let you have a word. I don't agree

:13:10.:13:16.

at all Polly but the lesson for the Labour Party, is if they don't want

:13:17.:13:21.

to have any influence at all, they have to be credible, and stand a

:13:22.:13:25.

reasonable chance of becoming Prime Minister or becoming Government,

:13:26.:13:28.

that is the only way they will get leverage. We need to leave it there.

:13:29.:13:32.

I was going to say we will come back to it. We will see. The Daily

:13:33.:13:38.

Politics will be back at noon tomorrow.

:13:39.:13:42.

and we'll be back here next Sunday for the last show of 2016.

:13:43.:13:44.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:45.:14:41.

# We're going to have a party tonight

:14:42.:14:47.

Andrew Neil and Peter Henley with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Former London mayor Ken Livingstone and former shadow chancellor Chris Leslie discuss Labour's electoral fortunes, and former chancellor Ken Clarke talks about rebelling over this week's Brexit vote. The Political Panel consists of Iain Martin of Reaction, Tom Newton Dunn of The Sun and Polly Toynbee of The Guardian.


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