29/01/2012 Sunday Politics Wales

Welcome to Sunday Politics. Our top story: Mac is Labour playing catch-

up on the benefits scheme? We shadow the welfare spokesman. Just

how big is Stephen Heston's bonus and should the Government Brocket?

Treasury Chief Secretary joins us for the Sunday interview. After the

Government's welfare reforms took a battering in the Lords, our innate

s plans next? Labour and Tory go a dead. -- our NHS plans.

Our political panel of the best. They are here to analyse British

politics in the week ahead. Is the UK on the road to a federal

structure with some of our tax is paid to the Welsh government? It is

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2024 seconds

a view be expressed by a leading Welcome to Sunday Politics. The

Presiding Officer talks of a federal structure in the United

Kingdom. A prominent Muslim leader makes a plea for tolerance. To

guide us through these and other topics I am joined by Brennan, the

leader for Cardiff West and Bethan Jones, the Plaid AM for South Wales

West. This �1 million bonus on offer to Stephen Hester. It is

being offered because any deal Labour struck. We know it is

possible for the Government to vary their contractual obligations from

when RBS went into public ownership. My constituents cannot understand

how would his RBS can be the first to pull the plug on a company like

peacocks and end up with their Chief Executive being given that

this kind of business -- bonus. It is possible for the Government to

act, they are empowered. argument is, Bethan Jenkins, this

man is doing a good job and it would cost the taxpayer a lot more

if this bonus was not on offer. think the Government has a strong

position on the board so they wanted to enforce the situation

where he did not take that bonus, they could do so. If you ask

somebody to do something voluntarily, they will not. People

are fighting for their jobs, fighting for their pensions, it is

galling to see large-scale bonuses when the public has bailed them out.

The Government need to take firm action on this. Thank you. The

consultation on Scottish independence which was published

last week has opened up a wider debate about the future of the

United Kingdom. How should Wales respond and how would we see

ourselves if Alex Salmond won the referendum which will happen in

2014? Most political observers now agree a change in relationship

between each constituent part of the UK is inevitable. One of those

is the Conservative AM David Melding who has long been a student

of devolution. I put it to him if David Cameron has got his tactics

wrong over Scottish independence. Hyde is a grey -- disagreed he has

been focusing on those questions of feasibility of whether Scotland

could survive. Will except Scotland could be independent. There would

be advantages and disadvantages. -- we all accept. I believe the

disadvantages are greater. This point of clarifying how we would

hold a referendum and how it would be clear and fair, I point people

to the Canadian experience in the 1990s to demonstrate what can go

wrong. That is important. It is stage one. Stage two is working out

what Britain we will have after 2014, assuming people of Scotland

do not vote for independence will stop if Scotland was to become

independent, what do you anticipate would be the next step for Wales? I

think the alternative to independence is to see a proper

federation within the British Isles and a home nations. We are

committed to a British state with clear policies that are reserved to

the British state. Whatever happens after 2014, I think it is going to

affect Wales because we are either going to be part of a British

federation, which I hope will emerge, or if the people of

Scotland vote for independence, we have to think about what sort of

combination will work between the Northern Ireland, Wales and England.

I think we are right to raise these questions. That would look very

different to today's arrangement. It more powers are to come to Wales,

they are likely to be around fiscal responsibility. If taxes were to

come, like air passenger duty, they might not be worth much to the

Welsh government. The Welsh government might not be keen to

inherit responsibility about national insurance and income tax.

Where do you stand on this? best way forward would be to see a

dual income tax rate which is part UK and part Wales or Scotland. That

is so part of the income tax rate would pay for Welsh services and

part for UK services. People would clearly understand what rate they

are paying for. Also, some limited borrowing powers. One has to be

careful on borrowing powers. Steak into trouble usually get into

trouble on borrowing rather than their tax revenue. -- states that

get into trouble. If there was to be a formal federal structure, I

take it your vision of it, Welsh MPs would not be voting on matters

that only affect England. You think it is nonsensical that happens.

is my view we cannot overlook forever the political rights of

England and the people of England will make these determinations and

I think we need to focus, as Carwyn Jones has done, on the federal

institutions that would protect the particular concerns of Wales and

Scotland as smaller partners. There is an issue. I would have thought

reforming the House of Lords is the way to do that. I do not think we

can forever so few English rights within the House of Commons. That

will lead to great problems. Sub due. Thank you.

That was David Melding. What you make of that? Do you not concede

the most likely settlement which will appeal to the Welsh public is

one which there would be some powers, some responsibilities still

reserves to the UK government? is yet to be fully discussed now we

are looking at fiscal powers for Wales. That is something that could

be discussed. The counter view is being discussed by your party.

course. That is what I was coming to. Scotland are well on their way

to having that debate. That is something we should be discussing

on a British level, if you want to call it that, in terms of what

would happen if Scotland had independence. The concept of

federalism is something that is on the fringes of UK politics.

Unionism hasn't had any cohesion. You would expect me to support what

they are doing in Scotland because that is the method of our party.

What was coming through is what Carwyn Jones has been saying.

Calling for clarity, this constitutional Convention. It is

all a bit of a mess at the moment. I think David's contribution is a

very thought for one, as well as Carwyn Jones'. They are trying to

tackle the question of devolution. It is a process, not an event. We

haven't a symmetrical constitution in the UK. -- we have. Who should

may cause is difficult because we have a bunch of unelected people in

a House of Lords. I think there is a need for big constitutional

debate about the future of the United Kingdom. I strongly believe

the United Kingdom is a very powerful and successful political

entity, that Wales will want to remain a part of. Ultimately, if

they are given a straight question rather than it being fudged, I

cannot -- I think Scottish people want to stay part of the UK.

have spoken about who should vote. You have been an education minister

for quite a long time. You are now a shadow. Where is the sense in you

making a contribution about policy which has no effect on your

constituents? A minister of the Crown is not dependent on being an

MP. You can be a member of the House of Lords... In the long term,

David is right, that is the question we will have to look at.

We need to look at where Welsh MPs, what aspects they can vote on.

Ultimately, our process we were going down was towards regional

devolution in England. That was rejected in England and left us in

this position with the English question unanswered. In the long

term, the kind of things that David Melding is saying, an overall

settlement for the UK, is what we need. Few -- if you compare the

legislation going through Parliament and the Assembly at the

moment, there is a vast difference in the number of legislation going

through each establishment. Some people would say, if you look at

the legislation going through the Assembly at the moment, it is one

piece of legislation since the election. What difference have

these greater powers made? You have to ask the Government, the Labour

government, why there is only one piece of legislation. We need to

see more action from its current government in Wales. You have seen

Alex Salmond constantly take the debate on with David Cameron her as

regards to powers, the referendum, independence. Carwyn Jones has been

quite laid-back until now. Suddenly, Unionists are worrying about the

referendum and are trying to scramble ideas together as to what

would be the alternative of. People like Kevin need to take a stance.

Do you believe in devolution of or can we allow Scotland to go on

their own? I think it would be a big mistake for Scotland to go it

alone. They do need clarity about what is being proposed. If you have

a separate Scotland, that question should be put forward to the people

of Scotland in a straightforward way. Alex Salmond gets away with a

lot and has been very clever in manoeuvring the debate towards what

this option is. Most people have consistently, either when the vote

SMP, do not want to leave the United Kingdom. -- SNP. A South

Wales Muslim leader has issued a plea for people of all faiths to

redouble efforts to promote understanding and tolerance. Sheik

Mohammad Tahir Ullah, the chairman of a Newport Moscow, urged everyone

to focus on the need to help each other through bleak economic times

for the sake of future generations. He was speaking to our reporter.

As worshippers gathered for prayers they were reminded of the need for

respect for the law of the land and tolerance. It is something Sheik

Mohammad Tahir Ullah, a Bangladeshi who came to Britain as a young boy,

is passionate about. I speak about tolerance and understanding. As a

Muslim, we do that anyway. I think there is opportunity now, people do

understand about the Muslim religion as well as their own, I

think we are getting there. We are on the right path. We have to work

hard. You have to work your duty. For more than three decades, Sheik

Mohammad Tahir Ullah has been chairman of the mosque which last

month joined six others in the city contradicting claims Islam approves

violence. Anti-terror police raided a meeting as a community hall in

Cardiff. The meeting's leader rejected suggestions it was linked

with a extremist group. Whatever the truth, title -- Sheik Mohammad

Tahir Ullah says people need to come together. Muslim religion is

broad and wide. It does not prevent you integrating with the other

societies. I asked everybody in society -- I asked, we are normal

human beings, we are the creation of God. All men have to look after

each other. Never mind whether I am black, white, red or green. It does

not matter. We are all human beings. We are children of Adam and Eve. We

have to embrace each other. This community is sharing the economic

pain of recent years and hoping things will be better for the

generation that comes next. We are no different to anybody else. We

have been hit by the recession as well. I ask everybody to come -- to

comfort each other and do good deeds for the next generation.

Everybody is a child. As the Prophet said, if you save one life,

you save the whole of mankind. If you take one life away, you kill

behold humanity. That was Sheik Mohammad Tahir Ullah.

One thing that struck me, Bethan Jenkins, was he said, we are

getting there, implying we are not there yet, in terms of people

living side-by-side. What more can be done by politicians, by the

Welsh government to make sure that happens? I think Wales has a long

and proud tradition of communities living together from De Vit -- from

different ethnic groups. What we need to do is address the issues

that some communities have towards why they feel they are not being

listened to or hurt. Lots of people living in deprived communities, as

well. -- listened to or heard. We do not want to push groups

underground. We want to engage. We should not saying the police in to

stop meetings happen. As politicians, we have to lead more

effectively in those communities and listen to those leaders who

have that type of engagement that we may not have. On that police

raid in the community centre, is that acceptable? It was very

strongly supported by Muslim leaders across Wales. It is

extremely important not to be complacent about the dangers of

extremism and there is a very small element within the Muslim community

itself in South Wales that has been influenced by outsiders. Some

people say they are being picked on. I think if you talk to Muslim

leaders there is very strong support for the Act and the police

have taken. They are very concerned of the influence on young people of

some of the ideas of violence and extremism. I would say, in support

of Bethan, there is a good community relations a cross South

Wales. We have had that for a long time. I have a large Muslim

population within my constituency and there are strong support so we

do not allow extremism. The prion and Muslim leader who died last

year preached strongly on this subject. -- the predominant Muslim

leader. I think there are ways of dealing with things. I am not sure

whether sending police in heavy handed Leigh will alleviate some of

the tensions that clearly do exist in our communities. We should not

be complacent, however. Time to look at the political week.

Darren Miller, chair of the Assembly's Public Accounts

Committee, said the police should investigate financial corruption at

the leading the race Relations company. All funding has been

suspended because of the allegations. Outlining a new social

services bill, the minister said it would give greater powers to

thousands of people who receive care. They would have rights have

more control over budgets. Concerns were raised about children

with mental health problems. Some suffered from poor self-image

because of advertising and the media.

At the Scottish government unveiled proposals for a referendum on

independence. Carwyn Jones said he doubted whether Scots would back

leaving the UK. The Plaid Cymru leadership contender said Wales

could have a referendum on independence if Plaid Cymru won the

next two elections. Bethan Jenkins, let us start with

what was said about Plaid Cymru victories in the next two elections.

They have a big leap for the party that lost seats. -- is a big lead.

We have to be ambitious. We have to think big, otherwise what is the

point of Plaid Cymru? We are looking at was Scotland is doing,

we are looking at the campaign that is going to be starting in Ireland,

and Wales needs to be part of that debate for Welsh independence. I am

excited by what all the candidates have to say. Are you running scared,

Kevin Brennan? I think Bethan is right. Any party should seek to be

ambitious but I think in private, a lot of people in Plaid Cymru would