12/02/2012 Sunday Politics Wales

Later in the programme: 50 years since Saunders Lewis

predicted that Welsh could die as a living language how close to the

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1701 seconds

truth was he in his famous radio Hello, and we will be discussing

the future of the Welsh Language Today and the ongoing clash between

Westminster and Cardiff Bay of the health service. My guests of the

Labour NT -- Labour MP, Paul Flynn, and Suzy Davies. One of the big

stories has been sparks between the Westminster and Cardiff Bay

government of the health service. We have a health secretary under

siege. His health under crisis in both countries? Unfortunately Dave

Cameron when he is cornered insults people or create these figures. He

has got a terrible problem. Almost nobody is supporting this Bill,

doctors, nurses, members of his own Cabinet. He either has to abandon

it and suffered humiliation or continue with it and if that

happens all the problems in the health service for the next few

years will be blamed on him and the organisation. You have admitted

there is a crisis on both sides. are aware of the conversations

taking place in Westminster, but the views of this programme will be

interested in what happens in Wales -- the viewers. It is in crisis,

and the first Minister's response is constantly to try to divert

attention to what is happening in England and that is not what we

need to know about it. This is a so did we will return to later in the

programme. In the meantime it is 50 years this

week's in Saunders Lewis issued a wake-up call on North language was

up in his lecture at Tynged yr Iaith, The Fate of the Language he

warned it could disappear by the The body responsible for mope --

promoting the Welsh language will come to an end in a few weeks. That

responsibility will fall on the shoulders of the newt language

Commissioner. The outgoing chief executive of the Welsh Language

Board told me about his concerns for the future. If I look back over

the last 18 years you can see the traffic in terms of ideas,

promoting the Welsh language, has gone from the board to the

government, not in the other direction. So as the responsibility

now goes to the government, he will lead that created the age? Who

actually with in political circles will have that role of practically

saying we need to do something about the Welsh language. It is in

crisis, how do we promoted, put that forward? In terms of

legislation, as the board disappears and we have a new

structure, my question is, who has that creative role? I am not sure

at the moment I can added by that element in the jigsaw. There is a

particular void, you think, in that respect. That surely is a major

cause for concern. It is. We need to look at the system we have at

present, look to the major players are, what are their influences, and

plan within the new structure to make sure those influences are

there, especially around the issue of promoting the language. How do

you get a person, a young person, a street corner on a Saturday night

to speak Welsh by choice? I am sure the government would say they

created the very role of a language Commissioner to promote the

language. Are you confident their language commissioner has the teeth

to carry out all her functions? role of the Language Commission is

to operate as a regulator, check-up on bodies they don't deliver

services in Welsh. It is an important role, a role the board

did not have. But there is a big void in terms of the promotion. It

is back to this idea, how do you get people to use language? Having

public services within public bodies is a small part of that

jigsaw, but getting people to use the language with it -- with their

narrow personal life, it workplace, in society, -- in their own

personal life, is a task that can only be delivered by an

organisation with the flexibility the board has had to delve into

society, people's lives, and say we can help you, provide support. That

is not an obvious feature of the work of government, or a language

regulator. It is that Ford I am more worried about the make actual

structure at present. If we come when the clock forward 50 years, or

where do you think the Welsh language will be then?

A new language strategy is about to be produced. We have had no put

into that. We are looking forward to some new and very bright ideas.

We are looking for ideas, but looking for an investment. There

needs to be an investment in terms of ideas, innovation, but also in

terms of cash. Unless that is there the language will not survive. You

can have as much legislation as you watch, as much policy, but unless

you get in amongst the people and show them and persuade them the

language is something which is useful to them, there is no hope, I

think. Is this a growing language, or a dying language? It is a

growing language in some ways but as a community language it is dying.

And less eager support within communities. -- unless it get

support. They can be geographical communities but also using IT as

well. They need support for that. Without it it is a situation where

we will have increased number of people who can speak the language

but a decrease in the numbers who Painting a very pessimistic picture

as regards the Welsh language. Do you share his concerns?

Pessimism is a trigger for action and I can recall vividly how the

Saunders Lewis lecture chilled the blood, we were comely -- suddenly

confronted out of our complacency, that the greatest treasure, this

language that existed, centuries before English existed, was likely

to be neglected to death in our generation. And that is what gave

the great revival to the language, the realisation we had teacher

should in no way we hadn't done before. -- we had to cherish it in

a way. It has been astonishingly successful, the language is used

today, people are still writing, children are playing a Welsh,

people are making love in Welsh, tweeting in Welsh, it is very

healthy. One of his major concerns is what will happen under this new

structure where the border disappears and its functions are

transferred to the language commissioner appointed by the Welsh

government? He is raising concerns, one might say he would because his

job is disappearing. Do you share his concerns? I don't share his

pessimism but it is right to raise a word of warning. Perhaps we are

reaching one of their stages in the dipper element of watched her where

it is ready for a step change. Now is there is time to look at what

the commissioner does and look at how communities are using the

language. What he said, he was quite telling, more people can

speak Welsh but few are actually doing it and that is where perhaps

community action is more relevant than it has been in the past.

of people saying that as a consequence of of the radio lecture

we saw the formation of the Welsh Language Society. One thing I was

told his there needs to be a new body, a new movement bow, bow will

promote the Welsh language -- a new movement now that will promote the

war Welsh-language. We need something beyond the political

mainstream. One we get an official grasp, hugging the language to

death, it is the passion people feel for the language, the unique

nature of the language, the wisdom that has come down the centuries.

As we see it as more precious, that is what will save the language,

rather than official bodies. I believe there is this realisation

that the language is of enormous value. Will we look at the way

minority languages and other countries have withered and died,

and he we have the language still alive and still going very strong

for us, it is up to us to do it. We need a bit of pessimism. We need

people to say how is this language spoken by fewer than a million

people survive for me look at the fate of other minority languages?

It is very much up to us to realise and make an enormous effort to

ensure this wonderful language, this language of heaven, or still

be heard on the lips of our grandchildren.

Another thing that wasn't broadcast their that he said was the Welsh

government in his he is not promoting Wales as a bilingual

nation with two official languages. Is that your experience of

government? I don't know. Certainly as a newcomer to the Assembly any

official engagement I have little is inevitably I have the choice to

do it in English or Welsh and the material will also be in English

and Welsh. The level of activity, I'm not over-concerned pair well

she's not getting attention. What perhaps we are not concentrating on

and what the Welsh government could put more emphasis on his right a

grassroots level and where children are incredibly young, normalising

the existence of the language and communities where perhaps it has

not been used an awful lot in the past and where organisations are

critically important to have his players out. There was government

will be publishing its Welsh- language strategy on the 1st March.

After this afternoon's rugby clash with Scotland worried that the's

men face England but there is another Wales-England battle

building up -- Warren Gatland. There have been beliefs about their

health service situation. There is nothing quite like a Wales

England clash, whatever the arena. Locked horns, intense rivalry,

partisan crowds. In rugby such battles at the heart of the game's

history. At Westminster there is a newer, less sporting tradition, and

it is the Welsh NHS that is getting a kicking. Letters have a look at

what is happening to the NHS is Wales. They have put the money and

one third of people are waiting longer than 18 months, 18 weeks,

that is what is happening in Labour's NHS and if you didn't put

the money in and have the reform it would happen here as well.

As the Labour pack piled into plans to give GPs and other clinicians

much more control of hands bounding, and encourage the private sector,

the Prime Minister sidestepped by presenting the Welsh NHS as a bit

of a basket case. They have cut health spending by �40 billion, a

6.5% cut. 27% of people in Wales wait more than six weeks for

diagnostic services. The figure for England is just 1%. As I said

earlier, a third of people waiting over 18 weeks without -- for their

operation in Wales. That is what you get if you get Labour, no money,

no reform, no good health service. I am surprised the Conservatives

have raised this issue given the chaos that now exists in England

over NHS reform. At least we don't have the share of the BMA telling

us our health policies are dangers -- chair. Wales's First Minister

isn't averse to giving Mr Cameron's health bill a kicking on the

somewhat smaller Cardiff Bay Arena. Given what is happening in England

I think he was trying to deflect from the situation there. In

England we have seen doctors' representatives saying the reforms

are somewhat dangerous, almost every organisation that represents

those who work and health service say the reforms are not going to

work, we don't have that situation in Wales. I am sure the people of

Wales are glad of that. Health service points scoring is the stuff

of politics, but could continued prime-ministerial mornings of the

Welsh NHS caused serious injury? think he will run down people's

perception in Wales of their health service. People start to believe

because the opposite voice isn't but very effectively, but yes, the

Welsh Health Service does under before. We'll know because

everybody says it. And that will both harm potentially harm

recruitment well Wales has to compete in a UK context, and it

will also underline patient's confidence in the health service,

quite unfairly. Fair or foul, the health changes in

England are set to loom large right up to the UK general election. The

Welsh NHS can expect plenty more bruising encounters between now and

that final whistle in 2015. Suzy Davies, we have seen a lot of

political insults bandied about this week in terms of the use of

statistics over the health service. That might be good political point

scoring, but it doesn't really too much for those who depend on the

NHS, does it? If you been to see your GP and you're worried about

your health you will not be worried about statistics. We want to know

is when you can see a consultant at how your condition can be managed.

I don't think it has been helpful in that respect. We do need to know

more about what happens in our health service in Wales. It is

different from the English debate. The press coverage we are exposed

to it is about what is happening in England. More because of what

happens here is particularly important. I would much rather hear

about the figures Andrew Martin Davis put out in the Chamber about

what Cameron has been talking about him Westminster.

If GPs know best, why not give them greater control over the budget?

they know best the bill will be dropped because the GPs in England

are saying drop the Bill. Why not give them greater control? If they

know how to treat their patients, what treatment should go to their

patients, why not give them the power to control their own budget?

Because they have turned against it. Serve the whip -- midwives,

patients' Association, BMA, so have three members of the candidate.

This then there are scores of people saying drop the Bill, and I

am afraid camera is just being stubborn. What we all want to know

is the NHS will be there, it will be safe for us, and the best

treatment available when we need it. If you look back, I can remember

when the NHS didn't exist, and the agonies parents had to face when

they had to make her mind whether they paid half the crowd and called

the doctors and when they were children dying from childhood

diseases, or whether they put food on the table the following week. We

had a terrible standard of health service in Wales compares to places

like Cheltenham and London and that has gone. People love the health

service, 70% satisfaction that two years ago. People don't want to

see... David Cameron said the last

government was cutting 400 million from the health budget. That is

about the same amount of money which the Welsh government claims

is owed to them through underfunding.

But is certainly not true of the health budget, is it? The West must

do government made equipment the beginning of his 10 it was ring-

fencing it. -- the Westminster government major Shaw at the

beginning of its turn it was ring- fencing it.

Thank you both very much. Plenty to look back on from the week that has

just passed. We have a look back at The Wales Audit Office is

investigating Wales's most prominent race equality body. The

report raised serious concerns about financial mismanagement at

the All Wales ethnic minority Association. The Charity Commission

has also brought an inquiry and the police said they were examining the

evidence in the report. Two employees was suspended from the

Labour Party pending the outcome of an internal inquiry. Shadow farming

minister criticised the decision to scrap the Agricultural wages Board

which sets minimum wage rates and conditions for 12,000 workers

across Wales. The Prime Minister agreed to discuss a new law making

stalking a criminal offence. It was needed to stop harassment they

could end in murder. The Welsh government urged motorists not to

smoke while driving with children. Ahmad health related matter,

smoking in cars with children, yes on air? I think that will get a big

public support. We need to be careful is banning smoking

completely, but I think where children and other vunerable people

are in the car, I think you will get a lot of support. Don't parents

know best? Smoking is an addiction and we must ensure that children

are protected from it. It is the great killer drug of our generation.

Banning a drug doesn't reduce disease, it often gives it the

thrill of being something that is forbidden fruit and doesn't help to