16/12/2012 Sunday Politics Wales

Good morning, welcome to the Sunday Politics. It is supposedly the

Government department getting Later in the programme, is a

decline in the number of people who can speak Welsh a cause for

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2142 seconds

concern? And what could be done Hello. On the Sunday Politics Wales,

the latest Census tells us there is a decline in the number of people

who can speak Welsh. Is this a crisis?

And what's the best direction of travel when it comes to Government

funding of big building projects? Joining me throughout today's

programme are the Conservative MP, Glyn Davies. And the leader of the

Welsh Liberal Democrats, Kirsty Williams. I think we shall start

with the stories dominating all the media this morning, the shootings

in Connecticut in America. We know that Carwyn Jones has written to

President Obama sending the Welsh people's condolences. Let us get

your reactions. It is horrific, almost beyond belief that such a

dreadful thing could happen. I have a six-year-old daughter myself and

cannot begin to imagine what that community is going through. I was a

student in America 20 years ago and was bemused by the attitude towards

dance. There was a shock in the town where I was a student. --

towards guns. That town sold guns openly. In Connecticut, there are

some of the Firmus regulations and yet there still happened. Kirsty

says she does not hold out much hope that President Obama can come

to terms with that. Should he even tried to? I think he should 2, 7

with automatic weapons. But there is no point pretending that you --

I think you should try to, certainly with automatic weapons.

But there is no point pretending that these sorts of incidents can

never happen. But you do your best and he the President should try to

remove the automatic weapons. shall leave it there for now and be

back with you in a moment. As we keep getting told by

politicians, there is not a lot of spare cash around at the moment. So

what can governments do to raise extra funds? The Welsh government

is set to get some limited borrowing powers. And it is

exploring other ways of paying for key projects like new roads. But a

story from Newtown in Powys over three decades ago might have some

telling lessons for modern-day policy makers.

On the road to getting poor rose 2 -- 2 getting powers to borrow money.

But not there yet. The green light is there in principle, but they are

looking at other ways to raise cash in the meantime. A new scheme was

announced that will see the setting up of a body to borrow �300 million

from the private sector to fund improvements to this road, the A465.

It means using private money, but unlike the Private Finance

Initiative, the Government says there is more in it for the public.

Beer is a limit on the profit private companies can make, and if

a Supplies is made, it is your back with the Government, so we think it

is a way to bring private capital in, but ensure the public sector

get a good deal. And insuring good deal is crucial when signing up to

borrowing agreements that often last decades. There is a tale from

1970s Newtown in Powys. Back then, a body and its successor funded a

big housebuilding effort by borrowing millions of pounds from

something called the National Loans Fund. Hundreds of houses were built,

including these. It was part of a big boost to swell the population

of Newtown through a huge construction programme. Many of the

loans were over 60 years and often at an interest rate in excess of

14%. By the beginning of the 1990s, the loans were almost �20 million.

But the Development Board for Rural Wales does not exist any more and

its responsibilities, including any outstanding loans, are now the

Welsh Government's. It emerged that, by the end of this financial year,

the Welsh Government is still likely to or �11.6 million and it

is due to keep on paying until 2041. The houses have long been signed

over to the council and a housing association. Many have been sold

into private ownership through the right-to-buy scheme. The local

Assembly Member says the right decisions were made at the time.

think it is a strange situation, would the Government is paying off

a loan of assets it no longer owns. But the way these houses are now in

private or public ownership, they were needed at the time and are

needed now, but the lessons for future governments is that it needs

to be responsible with taxpayers' money, but also work with private

partnerships to support infrastructure projects. This is

the problem when you take out long- term loans. That future governments

cannot be held responsible for what previous governments took out. And

that legacy of the housing project in Newtown is an absolute scandal,

the amount of public money going into that, with no public asset. We

have been publicly financing private home-ownership, that is

clearly unacceptable. The Welsh Government says it tried to pay off

the loans, but the repayment would have made it too costly and the

high interest rates were typical of the time and a much lower now and

it adds that future Government borrowing will only be undertaken

when the investments represent long-term value for money. Few

would disagree that, when alternative sources of money is

scarce, borrowing is a valuable tool, but the money comes a at a

cost. You clearly could not take out borrowing that you were not in

a position to show over the long term how you could pay that back.

But it is very important, with the limited powers this assembly has,

that there are other avenues for attracting investment into the

public sector, which is desperately needed. It is important to be

careful in negotiation and also to make sure that the projects you are

spending on a really worthwhile for the economy, because you will be a

paying for them. A lot has changed in Newtown since the 1970s. But the

legacy of financial decisions taken back then still resonate in Cardiff

Bay decades later. Glyn Davies, you were involved in

the mid-Wales Development Corporation ended 1980s, after this

one was taken out. Beverley above board, but what you make of the

idea that this will not be paid off until 2041? I do not think it is

unusual. No? The steps of things are rarely done, because they do

not want to borrow so much money. But these are usually long term.

Those were six the year terms, taken at a time when interest rates

-- they were 60-year terms, taken at a time when interest rates were

higher. We can find those figures high now, but at that time, it does

not seem particularly unusual and I do not see what a scandalous about

it. When you borrow money, you have to pay it back. In future, any big

project, we will have to be careful how it is structured and lessons

have been learnt. Looking ahead to future borrowing in a moment. But

what about the idea that the Welsh Government is trying to peel off

what is now �12 million, which is not a huge amount, but it cannot he

off because the costs are prohibitive. It borrowed the money

from the public purse, so the public purse charging the public

purse, with high prices for paying off alone. But those are the

consequences and we have to learn the lessons from that and make sure

that, whatever big capital programmes and money is borrowed

for, those are right, they are future proof, things we are going

to need and we will not say that we are not going to use that hospital,

we need a new one here, or in new road here, not there, so we need to

future prove the capital programme and make the right decisions.

Governments do not have a great track record, such as in the 1970s,

the high cost public finance initiative ideas that are crippling

parts of the NHS. We need to make sure that, when these than it was

seated, we have people from the city with better experience,

ensuring the right deals on the right projects. Those houses were

needed, providing valuable homes in Newtown, but the terms of the deal

looks good at the time, but you cannot predict the future. There

was reference made to the kind of system that the Welsh Government

could adopt, we are public companies cannot take loads of

profit out of any deals. You were nodding in agreement? I agree with

that. We have learnt lots of lessons, the PFI in particular.

Some of those deals are ludicrously beneficial to the private sector

partner. We have to learn what happened. There were mistakes in

developing PFI, in particular, and we need to learn from that and make

certain that the deal is safe and all key for the whole length of the

term. -- and it is all right for the whole length of the term.

Borrowing powers coming to the Welsh Government, starting to use

them, and looking for the best deal. Borrowing powers are on the way, if

you listen to your Liberal Democrats colleague Danny Alexander.

Have you discussed what those would be? Those were vaguely announced.

We know there has been an agreement between Westminster and the Welsh

Government on the principle that the Welsh Government should be able

to borrow. That is right. Now there will be negotiations about the

terms of that and the limits placed upon it. As we can see, we need to

have confidence that the Welsh Government can manage those

projects, manage those deals and will not jeopardise public finances,

either in Wales but across -- either in Wales on across the UK.

This is the right path and we need to learn some of those lessons.

Some of the PFI stuff in the 1990s, the initial companies have been

able to sell those on, because they were so generous. We need to make

sure we do not end up in those situations again. We shall leave it

there for now and be back with you shortly. There have been calls for

the Welsh government to take more action to halt the decline of the

Welsh language. They came after the 2011 Census revealed that fewer

people are able to speak the language compared to 10 years ago.

Welsh ministers deny there is a crisis. Let us see what Dafydd

Elis-Thomas thinks, in the Cardiff newsroom. Good morning. I ask that

the top of the programme about a crisis in the Welsh language. What

do you think? We never paid much attention to Census figures. When

we were promoting the language, there are far more valuable

indicators of attitudes and actual increasing numbers of speakers,

especially in the younger age group. These figures are down to

demography. These are crude percentages and do not tell you

anything about real attitudes. I am concerned about this sort of

discussion as a sideline from the real issue of promoting and

marketing bilingualism as a lifestyle choice for people in

Wales. For example, we have had centres to educate people who have

moved into certain areas, who had young children, for those children

to be educated to participate in the national curriculum to him. --

National Curriculum. That kind of thing makes a real change, not

crude percentages. It must be a real concern that Welsh is not the

dominant language spoken in Anglesey, for instance, or in

Carmarthenshire. It was the cornerstone for what opportunities

there. I do not buy any of this. This is very superficial social

linguistics. There was this percentage. If you did not have 70%

Welsh, that would not be bilingual. But that has been proven wrong.

Welsh is in a stronger position throughout Wales and indeed in

England. We do not count all those friends we have in England who are

still speaking Welsh. Another example of the demography. We need

to look at what is happening in the South East, look at the huge

increase in the numbers of young people going through the system.

This is what is important. The important thing then is to ensure

there are opportunities to work piling Willie, which is all about

marketing and development. -- to work in a bilingual way. The most

important thing I realised in my time and the Welsh Language Board

is that marketing, persuading people, was far more important than

regulation. I do not think the Government has a good track record

of persuading citizens to do anything. In terms of the politics

of this, someone suggested this week that, because the number of

those using the language is down two percentage points, not an

enormous drop, for those trying to promote and fight for the language,

it is a great result, having ammunition to pressure the

Government to do know -- to do more about increasing it again. I do not

think this is a task for the Government. But that ship has

sailed. It has not. We need a promotion campaign to promote

bilingualism and job opportunities. Who does that? That is done by the

private sector. I am pleased that the business Minister is looking at

the role of the Welsh language in the private sector and business

activity and we hope for pride -- we hope for positive ideas out of

that. We want to promote language enterprise activities throughout

Wales. We have organisations in developing culture. We need more of

that. Thank you for joining us this morning. And reaction from the

guests. Glyn Davies, you are at a more advanced age, learning at that

time, why did it take you that long? It was a search for my roots.

I wanted to learn. To learn as an adult, you need total commitment or

you cannot do it. The key to it is having people speaking Welsh when

they are very young, from four, seven, that sort of age. I think

that is the key to developing the language. Eventually, I think that

is the basis at which I feel fairly optimistic. I think this is a bit

of a wake-up call. I do not dismiss the figures quite in the way Dafydd

Elis-Thomas does. What he says about demographics, with a proper

understanding about what is behind it, a lot of subjectivity if you

ask someone if they speak Welsh. There could be as objective answer.

-- there could be a subject of answer. And that was discussions

about people overestimating their ability to speak Welsh in the last

Census. What was your reaction when you saw those headlines this week

that the number had gone down? Were you surprised? I was disappointed.

As he has said, it is a subject of questioned but not necessarily a

true reflection, but we cannot ignore it and need to look at what

we can do in communities to promote the language, using promotion

methods that Dafydd Elis-Thomas talk about, but I also think there

is need for regulation and statutory action. Both myself and

my husband do not speak Welsh, our parents did, but our children do,

because of the provision in the primary school. But there is little

provision at the secondary level and virtually nothing in South

Powys at a post 16 level. Opportunities for young people to

remain in their communities, to work and not feel the need to leave,

and if finding a job, the ability to buy a home. We do need a mixture

of persuasion, marketing, the benefits of sending your child to

Welsh medium school, but also be opportunities to be there to

provide those services, as well as action on the economy and housing.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas has read a little faith in the Government. Do

you share his pessimism? -- has very little fate. Central

Government does need to take a leadership role. But it is also

down to local authorities, those other people that should be

providing Welsh medium education. And also the private sector.

Everyone has a role to play in promoting the language and making

sure there are opportunities for people to use that in every day

life. That is what worries me, been an area such as South Powys, my

children go to school, learn through the medium of Welsh, but

with few opportunities outside a school to use that language. We

need to do more in a whole variety of areas and it is not the job of

one organisation. Let us look ahead to ten years' time, were no one

knows the answer, but do you think that we will see a spike. Do you

think it will go up again? I think it will creep up. Ten years ago, I

thought that the battle to save the language was one. I think this is a

wake-up call, in the sense that it is never actually won, it is an

ongoing battle. Wales is so committed to keeping the language

and I feel that we will make that commitment. As long as it is done

to -- as long as it is done well, and do not rely on just Government,

I think it will be. I do not think we will see a great spiked, but in

ten years' time, if the Census figure is the same as now, that

could be what we could expect. you have they, whether this is a

crisis or not, that the downward spiral can be rectified? It has to

be and we all have a role in that. We will be back with you in a

minute, but night for a quick look at the political stories of this

week in 60 seconds. -- but now for a quick look.

The Prime Minister welcomed a major deal announced which is is hoped

will secure thousands of jobs. A multi-billion pound order will save

about 1,500 jobs. 7,500 in the supply chain.

The Labour Welsh Government should be judged on this record. And he

stressed the importance of sticking to your guns. He said there has

been a success in creating jobs for young people and passing

legislation. The Welsh Secretary and his deputy

said they would vote against plans to legalise the mileage in England

and Wales. -- to legalise gay marriage.

Under new I'll bomb -- and a new album fronted by a Welsh Liberal

Democrat has been described by a leading rock magazine as one of the

best debuts of 2012. It is said she has a voice of depth and clarity.

We had your predecessor singing carols last week and a councillor

singing in a rock band. Surely you will be next? No, I cannot hold a

tune. That will not happen. She is an amazing lady, a committee

councillor, a school governor, mother of two, does an excellent

job, and now this fantastic reviews. Well done to her. We shall listen

after the programme. You may think you would not have to come back to

Cardiff because of the Christmas recess. You will be back this

Wednesday to vote through the regulations on the new council tax

benefit. I suspect that will happen. Never mind not getting it sorted

the first time, you will sort it this week? Yes, I believe so. It is

an important issue for many people living in Wales and it is incumbent

upon us to make some progress on Wednesday. I am glad to be back to

get this sorted and give 72 local authorities and, more importantly,

people depending on counter-attacks benefit. Are you embarrass you

could not get it sorted a first- time? It was a shame we could not

concluded before the recess and avoid this. These things sometimes

happen. But you do have to recognise you got it wrong and get

it right. You recess has not even begun. You will discuss the energy

bill this week. Wednesday will be the day for that. Several issues I

want to raise. I do not like offshore wind farms and we need to

look at alternatives. And fracking as well, potentially the biggest

energy changed since North Sea oil. Good thing? -- Good Thing? Let us