23/06/2013 Sunday Politics Wales

decide whether Welsh parents can smack their children: the Assembly,

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2117 seconds

the Supreme Court or parents UK and introduce a ban on smacking

children? And we will hear from the Shadow welfare secretary -- Shadow

Welsh Secretary as George Osborne prepares to unveil the UK

Government's latest spending plans. Bethan Jenkins and Byron Davies join

me throughout the programme. The spending review, the decision is

made in Westminster but it will have a big impact in Wales, wouldn't it?

We have made our case out quite clearly to the Wales Office, who I

believe will be making the case to the Chancellor. How concerned are

you about what we are about to hear from the spending review? Our party

are very concerned because we have had huge cutbacks and the Labour

Government here is saying that they will protect the people of Wales. If

more budgets are cut that will affect citizens of Wales badly and I

would urge the UK parties to think again. Those are the views here in

the studio. Let's get the views of the Shadow Welsh Secretary, Owen

Smith, who joins us from Millbank. We've heard a lot of talk over the

last few weeks from Labour that there appears to be a change in the

mood in terms of handling the economy. What would you say is the

approach to austerity from Labour now? We know that we are going to

see further cuts coming from the Tory government in Westminster next

week when the spending review is announced. The only reason the

Tories are having this spending review is because the scale of their

failure is becoming so apparent. We know that we will inherit it in 2015

if we win and the deficit will be �96 billion, higher by 78 billion

than they told us by three years ago that they anticipated by 2015.

Therefore any prospect of government, any opposition, needs to

recognise that and have a hard-headed view of what we need to

do to deal with it. We cannot commit right now to reversing the cuts that

we anticipate seeing from George Osborne on Wednesday when he speaks

to the country, but we would come to government with a radically

different set of values and priorities and would take radically

different decisions about how we would reduce that deficit. It would

mean, I think, that I as a Welsh Secretary would be... It was only

last week that we sought Wales lost out by 7% on its budget despite the

fact that the Tories are saying Wales hasn't lost out. I feel we

will lose out further still this week. Let me ask you about members

of your own party who do not agree that signing up to this austerity

programme is the way forward. It doesn't seem as though Carwyn Jones,

the Welsh Labour Leader, has signed up to this and has said that

austerity is failing. Why would you sign up to it now? We know that the

government has cut too far and too fast over the last few years. People

were frightened that our economy was going to tank and therefore they

stopped spending. This misses stopped spending, we have the

largest amount of money sitting in the business bank account in the

history of Britain so we know that slashing the budgets doesn't work,

but Labour as a prospective government must be honest. It would

be great if I could say we would reverse these cuts tomorrow, but the

fact that the Tories have failed to get any growth in our economy... We

have got billions of pounds fewer tax receipts in Britain than we

would have had had we've seen some growth in the economy. It has been

disastrous over the last couple of years, it is why they are borrowing

so much more than they anticipated and why we have a deficit that is

massively greater than we anticipated. It would be dishonest

of us to say we would reverse these cuts. We must be real with people.

We would spell out what our arguments are. We would not have a

millionairess' tax cut -- millionaire's tax cut. It is wrong,

it is immoral, and we would be taxing bankers bonuses in the way we

did last year. We would also take tough decisions. We would recognise

that in tough times we can't continue to provide things like the

winter fuel allowance for pensioners who are earning more than �40,000.

Please stay with us for the moment. Byron Davies, the Chancellor today

said that he had won the argument on austerity. Is that right?

factors, this coalition -- the fact is, this coalition government had

deficit that was unprecedented since the Second World War. We have cut it

by one third already, so everyone must maintain savings, all

government departments, and the Welsh government is no different. I

am fully behind the Chancellor. Bethan Jenkins, we heard from the

Chancellor today that the economy was recovering. If you look at

unemployment, it is stagnating and has been since 2010, youth

unemployment is increasing, productivity, we are falling behind

other countries like Germany, France and the United States. Are we

getting out of this? It is not clear at all. You only have to look at the

UK parties, which know they are very similar to each other. Ed Balls said

he would carry on the Tory cuts. The Labour Party would carry on with the

academies. It is totally hypocritical for Owen Smith to say

that he would be reasonable and realistic when they currently may as

well be the Tory party. You may as well be the Tory party according to

Bethan Jenkins. There is a reality about the nature of the deficit that

the government anticipated getting debt down. Debt as a proportion of

GDP is going to be 30% greater when the Tories leave office in 2015 than

when they came to office in 2010. That is the absolute heart truth,

and that is the measure of their failure. We need to take tough

decisions. It is the case that the deficit since 2011 has stagnated and

debt has been increasing. Nobody expected it to take this long, but

you have to remember we have created 1 million jobs in the private

sector, so it is not quite as grim and I believe the economy is turning

a corner. I think you are living in cloud cuckoo land. You have the

bedroom tax, you have people suffering. People are on benefits,

they can't find work. We need to step back and look at the political

priorities and it is only fair to talk about conforming to this UK

Government agenda but we should talk about people putting money in

offshore bank accounts like Nigel Farage, we should be looking at

putting money into sustainable businesses in Wales as opposed to

punishing those who are poor in society. We always have the analysis

of trying to help the rich rather than the poor. That is why I'm in

politics, at others are in it for different reasons. Argue in it for

the rich? I don't think so. -- are you in it for the rich? There are

few millionaires amongst us, we are trying to help the people of Wales

and come from very humble backgrounds. There was a very

successful strategy in 1997 in sticking to the outgoing

Conservative government's spending plans. Are you going to try and

stick to that 1997 strategy which you delivered so successfully?

reality in 97 was we were anticipating rising budgets, rising

departmental spending. We were not in the desperate economic straits we

are currently in. Sticking to similar plans right now, or saying

more accurately that we can't commit after the next election to increases

day-to-day spending, would be wrong. We will have to reduce department

budgets. We will still be in difficulty until we get our economy

growing, but we have said that we would have different priorities. We

would borrow more to invest in infrastructure, the key ways to get

our economy moving. We would learn, from example, from Wales where the

Welsh Labour government has implemented a work programme that is

far more effective than that being in fermented by the Tories in

Westminster, so there are good -- implemented by the Tories in

Westminster. We will do it the way the Tory government should have done

it three years ago. Ultimately, it is too little, too late. Thank you

very much, Owen Smith, for joining us from Millbank.

Campaigners say that Assembly Members should the the first -- make

Wales in the first part of the UK to ban the smacking of children, even

if they have to face a challenge in the Supreme Court. A leading charity

said a ban would be hugely significant for child protection,

but there are warnings from Westminster that the legal challenge

would be almost inevitable. Over the years, although Assembly

Members have voted to ban smacking, the votes have never been binding.

It has been more than a decade since it was first discussed, but back

then Assembly Members lacked the power to introduce a ban. Now a bill

with child protection at its heart is making its way through the

Assembly. Campaigners say it is a golden opportunity to outlaw

offences against children. We will fulfil our commitment to children's

rights and it will make children safer, it will protect them where

there are concerns, it will very much help the government help

families. Political parties will face demands to ban smacking in the

next Parliamentary elections in 2016, but there is every reason to

press ahead now. The bill is try to reduce the legal defence for

reasonable chastisement. It is not hard to find politicians in

Westminster who believe a ban would be straying into the arena of

criminal Justice, which is not evolved. These issues about what is

devolved and what is not, we believe it is outside their dominion. I

think it would be a matter for the Secretary of State and Attorney

General. Amendments will be tabled to back a ban to an upcoming bill,

even if a Supreme Court challenge results. It will be contested by

Westminster and will probably end up in court, but people want

politicians to start making decisions, not worrying about

whether this is going to be challenged or not. If you don't have

the courage of your convictions you can't carry them forward and that is

what I fully intend to do. If people don't like it, too bad. I am doing

it for the protection of children, it is as simple as that. Welsh

government's reluctance to pursue a ban now is causing some tension with

Labour backbenchers in Cardiff Bay, some of whom have been campaigning

for this for years. I can remember when my children were little, I felt

like hitting them at times and I felt really stressed out. I felt

very stressed out and I did think of hitting them. As it happened, I

didn't, but I'll would have hoped that I would have known it wasn't

acceptable and I think it would be a great help to parents to know that

it is not acceptable in any form. think it is an admission of failure.

I have always been against hitting children and I don't think it is

appropriate to have a ban on smacking, I don't think it is

appropriate on that issue. I think the responsibility lies with

Westminster, but I think it should go before the Supreme Court before

it can go ahead. The Welsh ending that report by Adrian Brown.

Bethan Jenkins, you are a member of the Assembly's Children and Young

People Committee. Is that it over? Ewe I don't think so, and as you can

hear from my colleague, we have seen Labour AMs committed to ending the

ban. To me, the worst smacking undermines the fact that this is

violence against children. Would you say to a man, it's OK to beat a

wife, just give her a little smack? He would be arrested and charged.

Until we have legislation in hand then we will be in this situation in

ten years' time. Byron Davies, you are former policeman, but there are

surely practicalities involved here in Hackney Wick in how they would

enforce a ban on smacking. -- banning smacking. There are plenty

of offences to take people to court and arrest people, so I don't buy

into the value of the ban. I personally think it should be down

to the individual parents and left that way. It is not for government

to interfere with the way families are run. That is a point to pick up

on. There is a world of difference between beating a child and smacking

a child, is there not? Ewe that is an issue of perception, -- That is

an issue of perception, because if you continue to smack a child, what

is the line of acceptability of doing that? To go back to the

politics of the issue, I think the Welsh government, having had many

people stand on a political platform and say they would put a ban in

place or campaign for it, is undermining what the Minister is

doing. This is the ideal time to have an amendment instead of

delaying it and delaying it and delaying it until the next Assembly

and the next election. We heard your colleague saying there that this for

him straight into criminal Justice, which is not evolved and is a matter

for Westminster. The you agree? agree. There is an important point

raised there. Certainly I think there will undoubtedly be that

issue. If politics think that parents are inclined to beat their

children, a piece of legislation. At -- a piece of legislation. That,

they are mistaken. Shouldn't we be focused on trying to protect those

children rather than concentrating on the smacking issue? If you put

those political and educational messages out there in line with

legislation then I think we can change those perceptions. I had a

lively debate before I came here about this very issue mirroring a

lot about what Byron Davies has said, but I think we need to

implement strategic thinking on this. Legislation always helps to

tell people that this action is not acceptable. Thank you to both of

you. Time now for a quick look back at some of the political stories of

The UK Transport minister told the Welsh affairs select committee that

future plans for the bridges would have to reflect the interests of

England as well as Wales. A decision has yet to be made on ownership

ought polls. The former Plaid Cymru leader says he is standing down with

immediate effect. He requested a snap election in August.

The UK Government says it will not meet its own deadline to respond to

a report saying that ministers should be given... The report on the

subcommission won't be given until the end of spring. The Vale of

Glamorgan MP Alan Cairns has denied the club FA membership.

Let's pick up on that delayed response from the UK Government to

the subcommission, firstly with Byron Davies. We've hearing a lot of

discussion about how we are going to reach agreement, whether we can

reach consensus on this. Why is there a delayed response? I think it

is generally getting full consideration. Nothing happened

under the last Labour government, the new government is taking its

time over it and in the fullness of time we will have a response.

think they would probably say... set up the subcommission quite soon

after getting into government. sure Bethan Jenkins has something to

say about that. We have been waiting long enough. Look at the powers in

Scotland compared to Wales, the sooner the better. We need

confirmation of our own powers as we can get ahead, for example, with the

smacking ban. Is this part of the ongoing discussion about the

changing constitution, what is going on in Scotland and, of course, the

English question? We need to take a wider approach. If Scotland has

independence next year the UK will change for ever and I think people

are in denial of that fact, particularly in the Welsh

government, so we need to have a wider conversation about powers in

the United team them. -- United Kingdom. Is that what you would like

to see, a wider discussion rather than a piecemeal debate? I actually

agree with Bethan Jenkins, I would welcome a debate on the whole issue.

Another issue spoken about there was the tolls, which was something you

are very interested in. The Severn crossings are very important, the

economy comes through them, trade transport finds it very difficult to

profit because they need to pay �18 for each lorry going over the

bridges, so we will never get rid of that hauls, I'm sure of that because

the bridge -- the tolls because the bridges need to be maintained.

have this story about S4C and the UK Government cutting funding for it

completely. I am very worried and I am hoping to table an urgent

question to the First Minister this week in the National Assembly. I