Browse content similar to 30/03/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. | :00:37. | :00:42. | |
Can Ed Davey keep the lights on? Can he ever deliver cheaper power? Or | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
the investment our energy market badly needs? We'll be asking the | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
Energy Secretary. Why has the anti-independence Better | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
Together campaign suddenly got the jitters? We'll be quizzing Scottish | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
Secretary Alistair Carmichael. And whatever happened to the BNP? | :00:59. | :01:00. | |
Later in the programme, Mark They could be heading for | :01:01. | :01:08. | |
Later in the programme, Mark Drakeford tells me about new | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
legislation designed to keep us healthy. We hear from Ed | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
legislation designed to keep us which runs the capital's Fire | :01:16. | :01:18. | |
Service. The Mayor has a political move designed to silence his | :01:19. | :01:19. | |
critics. And with me, as always, the most | :01:20. | :01:28. | |
useless political panel in the business, who we're contractually | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
obliged to insult on a weekly basis. But not today, because they are our | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
chosen ones. They are the brightest and the best, we've even hired a | :01:37. | :01:44. | |
plane to prove it: Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who'll be | :01:45. | :01:50. | |
tweeting throughout the programme. Right, left and centre of the | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
Westminster Establishment have been unanimous in saying there would be | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
no chance of monetary union with the rest of the UK for an independent | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
Scotland. Then an unnamed minister spoke to our Nick saying that wasn't | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
necessarily so, and that made the Guardian's front page. The SNP were | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
delighted and the anti-independence campaign rushed to limit the damage. | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
The faux pas has come at a time when the Better Together side was already | :02:16. | :02:17. | |
beginning to worry that things were going the Nationalists' way. Let's | :02:18. | :02:23. | |
speak to a leading light in that campaign, Scottish Secretary | :02:24. | :02:25. | |
Alistair Carmichael, who's in Aberdeen at the Scottish Liberal | :02:26. | :02:34. | |
Democrat spring conference. Alistair Carmichael, why is there a | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
sense of crisis now engulfing the no campaign? I think that is something | :02:39. | :02:49. | |
of an overstatement. What you have got is, I am getting my own voice | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
played back in my ear. What you have got here is one story from an | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
unnamed source, a minister who we are told, we do not know for | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
certain, who has speculated on the possibility of a currency union | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
actually happening. I do not think that is helpful but it is not any | :03:09. | :03:11. | |
big deal. You have to measure it against what we have got publicly | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
named on the record. We have got a detailed intervention of the | :03:17. | :03:19. | |
Governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, outlining all the | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
reasons why a currency union would not be a good idea. And then you | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
have got independent advice from the permanent Secretary of the Treasury | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
himself saying actually, this is such a bad idea, that I would never | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
advise a chancellor to go ahead with it. You set one against the other | :03:36. | :03:42. | |
and you see that pretty much the force of argument is very much | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
against those of us who want to remain in the United Kingdom. All | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
the minister was saying is come the day, if Westminster is negotiating | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
with a new independent Scotland, a deal is to be done, Faslane where | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
the nuclear deterrent is, there is nowhere else in the UK to put that | :03:58. | :04:03. | |
is, certainly not for the next 20 years, a deal would be done, the | :04:04. | :04:06. | |
nuclear weapons would stay in Faslane and Scotland would get a | :04:07. | :04:09. | |
monetary union with the rest of the UK. That is perfectly plausible, | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
isn't it? No, I'm sorry, it is simply not plausible. The economy is | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
more important than anything else. What you have had here is very clear | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
advice from the treasury officials saying it is not in the economic | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
best interests of the people of England Wales, Northern Ireland, any | :04:29. | :04:31. | |
more than it is in the interests of people in Scotland. Where do you put | :04:32. | :04:40. | |
the nukes? The outcome will not change. Where do you put the nukes | :04:41. | :04:48. | |
when the Nationalists kick you out? I do not believe that will be a | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
problem because I do not believe Scotland will vote for independence. | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
But you might be asking the Scottish Nationalists, who are apparently | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
promoting this, are they then not sincere when they say they want to | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
remove nuclear weapons from Scotland? It seems to be a curious | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
mixed message. As you know, I have not got the Nationalists, I have got | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
you, so let me ask you the questions. You are widely seen as | :05:14. | :05:27. | |
running a campaign which is too negative. The Nationalists are | :05:28. | :05:29. | |
narrowing the gap in the poll found you are squabbling among yourselves. | :05:30. | :05:31. | |
This campaign is going pear shaped, isn't it? No, let's deal with the | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
polls. All the polls show that the people of Scotland want to stay as | :05:37. | :05:42. | |
part of the United Kingdom. Yes, there were a couple of polls last | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
week that said the gap was narrowing a little. The most recent poll of | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
all, the poll on Wednesday which actually polled people's voting | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
intentions on the question come September showed that only 28% of | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
people in Scotland were prepared to say they were voting yes, as opposed | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
to the 42% who were on our side of the argument saying they wish to | :06:07. | :06:12. | |
remain part of the UK. That poll said women were skewing towards a | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
yes vote and it showed that the don't knows were beginning to skew | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
towards a yes vote. That is why you yourself wrote this morning that if | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
your campaign does not get its act together, you would be sleepwalking | :06:26. | :06:31. | |
into a split to quote yourself. No, to quote myself I said it was not | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
impossible that the Nationalists could win that. That is absolutely | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
the case. The biggest danger for the United Kingdom camp in this whole | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
argument is people will look at the polls. They show us with a healthy | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
lead consistently. As a consequence, they think this will not happen. It | :06:49. | :07:04. | |
can happen. I have got to tell everybody that it could, not least | :07:05. | :07:06. | |
because the Nationalists have an enormous advantage in terms of the | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
amount of money they have at their disposal to buy momentum. They will | :07:10. | :07:11. | |
be advertising in cinemas, in football matches and on social | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
media. We have got to realise what is coming and as a consequence, we | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
have got to get our arguments in place and our campaign as sharp as | :07:21. | :07:27. | |
theirs. Thank you for joining us. Nick, this unnamed minister who gave | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
you the story, did he or she know what they were doing? I do not think | :07:32. | :07:39. | |
they were sitting there wanting to blast this out there, because the | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
agreed government position was there will not be a currency union, if | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
there is a vote for independence. But what I was managing to get hold | :07:49. | :07:55. | |
of whether thoughts that are in the deeper recesses of people's minds, | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
when they are looking at the polls which have been narrowing, or there | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
was Alistair Carmichael quite rightly says, the pro-UK vote is | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
still ahead. People are looking down the line, what would happen after | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
the 18th of September this year, not just the next day but the next | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
year, in those very lengthy negotiations that would take place, | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
when there would be a lot of moving places on the table. You talked | :08:21. | :08:23. | |
about Faslane, what would happen then and that is what I managed to | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
get hold of, that there are thoughts about all those pieces that would be | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
on the table. It is not surprising that some in Westminster think | :08:33. | :08:35. | |
that. Let's take the Shadow Chancellor Danny Alexander at his | :08:36. | :08:41. | |
word, they do not want a monetary union. But if they are faced with | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
giving the Scots a monetary union in a post-independent Scotland, or | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
having to remove the nuclear submarines from Faslane, where they | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
have nowhere else to put them, probably except North America, there | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
is a deal to be done. I think whatever minister gave Nick his | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
story is probably onto something. If the Scots vote for independence, of | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
course a deal will be done about the currency because it is not in | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
London's interests to have a rancorous relationship with | :09:12. | :09:14. | |
Edinburgh. Even if the deal is not done, how does one country stop | :09:15. | :09:21. | |
another country using its. That is different. All London can really do | :09:22. | :09:29. | |
is prevent Scottish intervention on the monetary policy committee. The | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
interest rate would be set without any regard to the Scottish interest. | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
Even that is only a fatal problem if the Scottish economy becomes so out | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
of sync with the UK economy. Except it is a problem for Scotland's | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
financial system because if you go down that route there is no means of | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
injecting liquidity into the financial system in the financial | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
crisis. That is why they would rather have a monetary union. Is it | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
not remarkable to hear the Secretary of State for Scotland here that the | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
Nationalists are spending too much money, when he represents a campaign | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
which brings together all the major parties in the UK and all the | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
resources of the UK and he is bleating about the Nationalists | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
having more to spend? I did think that was a funny line and it was in | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
the Observer. It lays into Alex Salmond's plucky upstart idea that | :10:19. | :10:21. | |
he's taking on this big establishment. I thought it was a | :10:22. | :10:28. | |
bizarre open goal, I am losing my football metaphors, forgive me. The | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
polls are so in favour of a no vote. But the trend has been going | :10:33. | :10:40. | |
their way. We have six months left which is not enough to close the | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
gap. They always tell you Alex Salmond is a strong finisher. The | :10:45. | :10:52. | |
plucky upstarts have this funding from a millionaire. The Better | :10:53. | :10:55. | |
Together campaign are being incredibly cautious about where they | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
get their money from. They do not want to go to the City of London | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
Police say, give us a couple of million. | :11:04. | :11:06. | |
Being Energy Secretary used to be a bit of a dawdle, especially when | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
North Sea oil was flowing. Now it's very much a hot potato as Ed Davey | :11:10. | :11:17. | |
has been finding out the hard way. High household energy bills have | :11:18. | :11:25. | |
been top of his inbox. The big six energy companies account for 95% of | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
the market. Off Johnson -- Ofgem said there had been possible tacit | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
coordination in the timing of price rises and ordered an investigation | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
by the competition and markets authorities which will look at | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
whether the big six should be broken up. Where does that leave | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
investment? The boss of Centrica made the point that you would not | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
spend money building an extension if you knew in two years time your home | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
might be bulldozed. The spare margin, that is what is left in the | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
generating system to cope with a surge in demand on a cold winter's | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
night, is due to drop to historically low levels in 2016, | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
according to Ofgem. Normally at around 15%, capacity could drop to | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
2% after the next election and that could lead to a surge in the sale of | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
candles. Now where is that light switch? | :12:23. | :12:24. | |
Energy Secretary Ed Davey, joins me now. Oh, we have found the light | :12:25. | :12:32. | |
switch! The gap between a peak winter demand and generating | :12:33. | :12:38. | |
capacity could possibly reach 2% next winter or the winter after. We | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
will keep the lights on, that is for clear. When we came to power, energy | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
investment had been relatively low. The Labour Party had failed to deal | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
with the energy deficit. From day one we have been pushing up | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
massively. Investment has been 8 billion a year. Last year was a | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
record. Spare capacity is now heading to 2%. Why are you allowing | :13:06. | :13:11. | |
it to get that no? Because we have been increasing investment | :13:12. | :13:13. | |
massively, last was a record level, we will be able to keep the lights | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
on. Some of the figures you are showing suggests we are not doing | :13:19. | :13:21. | |
anything. We have not only done enough in our last three years, we | :13:22. | :13:27. | |
have put in measures to stimulate huge amounts of extra investment. We | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
have the healthiest pipeline investment in our history. We will | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
come onto investment in a minute. None of that change is the fact that | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
we will be close to 2% next winter or the winter after that. We have | :13:41. | :13:49. | |
one major power station shut down, or a cold winter away from having | :13:50. | :13:55. | |
major problems with energy supply. It is still 2%. Let me explain. The | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
figures assume we are not doing anything but we are doing something. | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
Look at the National Grid. They are able to bring in energy from | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
interconnector is because we are connected up to Europe. They are | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
able to create a reserve so if we get to problems, they will have a | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
mothballed plant they can bring on. You have not agreed with anybody on | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
that. The decision was taken last July. But no supplier has agreed to | :14:26. | :14:31. | |
under mothball its plant. We would not expect them to do that yet. Our | :14:32. | :14:38. | |
plan is in place. On time, on schedule, as we already thought it | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
would be. But you have not got a single agreement with a power supply | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
who has mothballed plant to on the ball it. We did not expect to. Our | :14:49. | :14:56. | |
plan is in me National Grid will do an election to allow those plants to | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
come on. There is a huge amount of interest. There are gigawatts of | :15:01. | :15:03. | |
power that can come in to come on. There is a huge amount of interest. | :15:04. | :15:06. | |
There are gigawatts of power that can come into that auction and we | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
are not other measures we can take and that is just in the short term. | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
We have a plan for the medium-term. We will be running the first auction | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
for new capacity. The final decision will be taken and we have learned | :15:21. | :15:35. | |
lessons from what they do in North America and other European countries | :15:36. | :15:37. | |
so we can stay minute mothballed plants and new plants to be built. I | :15:38. | :15:40. | |
am absolutely clear there is not a problem. You only build 9000 | :15:41. | :15:50. | |
megawatts of new capacity from 2011-13. You have closed almost | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
22,000 megawatts. Why would you be so cavalier with a nation's power | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
supply? The last Government was cavalier because we knew those | :16:02. | :16:03. | |
figures are happening because we've known for a long time a lot of power | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
plants were coming to the end of their life, coal power plants, | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
nuclear power plants, and we had to increase the rate of investment, but | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
we... That shows clearly you are closing twice as much, you have to | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
date, closed twice as much as you have opened, hence the lack of spare | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
capacity. We knew a lot of them are coming back for the last Labour | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
Government knew. We have increased the new so that's increasing | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
significantly, far faster than under the last Government but also | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
remember, you were very wrong at the beginning of your clip, margins at | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
15% are very own usual. They are historically high. The average | :16:43. | :16:49. | |
margin was 25%. That was wasting a huge amount of money. But since | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
privatisation, we've had margins between 5% and 10%. Normally, high | :16:55. | :16:57. | |
margins historically, which is costly. Now we will have | :16:58. | :17:04. | |
historically low margins. People have to pay for that, so we make | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
sure the lights stay on, we have a short-term policy I have described | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
to you, and medium-term policy and a long-term policy. The long-term | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
policy comes huge investment between nuclear and optional, | :17:17. | :17:38. | |
policy comes huge investment between on. Ofgem, Independent, says the | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
chance of blackouts by 2016 has increased fourfold under your watch. | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
What they say, if you read the report, if we did nothing, they | :17:50. | :17:57. | |
would be problems. But we have been working with Ofgem. We have been | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
working with National Grid, and we have agreed that there will be a | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
reserve capacity which can come on if we get to the peak for the Best | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
not just on the supply side but demand and into connectors. You talk | :18:11. | :18:17. | |
about industry having to move to off-peak times. We say, they are | :18:18. | :18:20. | |
prepared to that you paid for it, and it makes commercial sense for | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
them, it's a sensible thing for the Wii will pay them to move to | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
off-peak. You have huge diesel parks for the you talk as if that | :18:30. | :18:32. | |
something new but it's been around for a long time for the 200 these | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
contracts out there. We want to expand that. You have hundreds of | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
diesel generators to click into, haven't you? There's a whole range | :18:42. | :18:47. | |
of generators. Diesel generation, dirty fuel. There's a of mothballed | :18:48. | :18:54. | |
gas which can come. If you look at the increase of the independent | :18:55. | :19:03. | |
generators, many companies, a range of power companies who are building | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
a new power station and want to build new ones. This is a healthy | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
situation. You say you made over 100 billion new investment between now | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
and the end of the decade to restore capacity and meet renewable | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
targets. Now you have referred the Big Six to the competition | :19:22. | :19:24. | |
commission, how much of that to expect to come from them? We will | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
see what the market delivers. We have always expected independent | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
generators to do a lot more than is happening in the past. How much from | :19:34. | :19:40. | |
the Big Six? It's not for me to say it's going to be best from that | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
company. The real interest is we have huge amounts of companies | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
wanting to invest. If you look at independent analysis, they say | :19:51. | :19:52. | |
Britain is one of the best places to invest in energy in the world. We | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
are the worldly do in offshore wind, one of the best for | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
renewables, one of the only countries getting nuclear power | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
stations. Rather than the bleaker picture you're painting, the reverse | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
is the case. We are seeing an investment renaissance. You say | :20:09. | :20:15. | |
that. Let me give you some facts. Under this Government, only one gas | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
plant has been under construction, only one started under your watch | :20:21. | :20:23. | |
for the others were done under Labour. You have none in the | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
pipeline. The Big Six has pulled back from further investment | :20:28. | :20:30. | |
including new offshore wind investment and none of what you're | :20:31. | :20:32. | |
talking about will come before 2020 anyway. That's simply not true. The | :20:33. | :20:39. | |
balance reserves I've talked about, the reserve planned: Making sure the | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
mothballed plant could come on, I capacity market incentivising new | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
power, will happen way before 2020, so that's not true. But doesn't | :20:48. | :20:53. | |
answer the extra capacity. You have no answer between now and the end of | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
this decade. We have three answers. Let me repeat them for you. I said | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
permanent, not the short-term ones you are putting in place to try to | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
do with spare capacity. We have a short-term plan, of course, that's | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
very sensible. Medium-term plan, auctioning for new power stations. | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
That can lead to both mothballed plant and when you plant, permanent | :21:16. | :21:18. | |
plant being built, and the long-term plan, to stimulator long-term | :21:19. | :21:25. | |
investment, some of which will be built and come online way before the | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
end of the decade. I'm afraid, it's a far rosier picture than your | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
painting. It's also far more expensive, too. Let's look at how | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
you are replacing relatively cheap energy with much more expensive | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
sources of energy. Wholesale prices is ?50 per megawatt. You have done a | :21:43. | :21:49. | |
deal with EDF, nuclear, ?92 50. You have indexed it for 30 years at 2012 | :21:50. | :21:52. | |
prices. All of that puts up our bills. First | :21:53. | :22:09. | |
of all, the support of the low Carbon is just 4% on bills. What has | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
been driving peoples bills over the last decade has been wholesale gas | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
prices. No one knows what guys prices are going to be in the future | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
-- gas prices. When you look at the Ukraine and other market indicators, | :22:24. | :22:26. | |
many people are worried that by the time nuclear power stations come | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
online for example, the price of gas could be significantly higher. You | :22:32. | :22:34. | |
have indexed linked that for them by the time you get any power from | :22:35. | :22:40. | |
this, it'll be up to ?125 per megawatt hour. The price of gas been | :22:41. | :22:47. | |
going up far higher. Not recently. Despite Iran, Ukraine, Libya, not | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
recently. The long-term forecast, Andrew, it's going to go higher but | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
more importantly than that, this is an area we could disagree on but | :22:57. | :22:59. | |
it's very important that power plants pay the cost of pollution. In | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
those prizes, all of those prices except the wholesale out a steep | :23:06. | :23:08. | |
price, you have those power stations paying the cost of air pollution. If | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
gas and coal where paying the proper carbon price, you would see nuclear | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
and renewables as competitive. It's very important that we ensure that | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
power plants pay the cost of the pollution. When you were last on | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
this programme to talk about this in May 2012, you said that the price of | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
offshore wind was coming down fast. You told me it would be down by 30% | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
in the next few years. That figure is 155, and for the deeper stuff, | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
it's going to be ?165. That's the first year of a limit control | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
framework which had it coming down. If you talk to many companies, | :23:48. | :23:54. | |
Siemens had invested with their partners, ?310 million with two new | :23:55. | :24:03. | |
factories. They are talking about lower prices because what they are | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
saying to me is that, rather than the 30% cost reductions I talked | :24:10. | :24:12. | |
about, I was wrong, they are targeting 40%. You said prices would | :24:13. | :24:18. | |
come down 30% in two years for that that was 2012 and they have gone | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
higher. I absolutely did not say that. Your exact quote was 30% in | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
the next few years. Your exact few years. You said two years, I sell a | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
few years. I haven't changed a single moment that you said two | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
years, I said a few years. That's what we are projecting. They will | :24:38. | :24:40. | |
come down. You have to invest in technology. Let me give you this | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
example. When people invest in mobile phones to start off with, | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
they were expensive, and they were clunky and the costs were going down | :24:50. | :24:57. | |
for the one final question. You put the Big Six into investigation | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
because they made a 5% return on investment and you're done a deal | :25:04. | :25:06. | |
with EDF, nuclear power, which will guarantee them a return of 10% - 15% | :25:07. | :25:13. | |
every year for 30 years. Doesn't that underline the shambles of your | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
energy policy? You have mixed up two separate things. The 5% Ofgem are | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
talking about is on the supply retail side. The percentage you | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
quoted for EDF is in the wholesale side of two different markets. It's | :25:26. | :25:31. | |
the same return. It's not. You are comparing apples and pears, | :25:32. | :25:34. | |
dangerous thing to do. You have to do have a high return but in the | :25:35. | :25:40. | |
retail market, with a 5% stake, there is less risk, says a low | :25:41. | :25:48. | |
return. Ed Davey, I'm sorry we haven't got more time. Thank you. | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
Have me back. We will. Whatever happened to the BNP? The far right | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
party looked as if it was on the verge of a major breakthrough not so | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
long ago. Now it seems to be going nowhere. In a moment we'll be | :26:02. | :26:03. | |
speaking to the party's press officer, Simon Derby. But first | :26:04. | :26:06. | |
here's Giles. His report contains some flash photography. For a moment | :26:07. | :26:09. | |
in 2009 Nick Griffin and the BNP had a spring in their step, smiling at | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
their success of winning two seats in the European Parliament. They | :26:14. | :26:16. | |
already were the second largest party in a London council and had a | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
London Assembly seat. Despite concerns from mainstream parties | :26:21. | :26:30. | |
their vote was up. Our vote increased up to 943,000. Savouring | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
success was brief that morning as anti-far right protestors invaded | :26:35. | :26:37. | |
and egged the press conference and forced the BNP MEPs into a hasty | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
retreat. What is more significant is that, in the years since, that | :26:43. | :26:44. | |
retreat has been matched internally, electorally and in the minds of | :26:45. | :26:54. | |
those who had given them that vote. For a number of years they were | :26:55. | :26:57. | |
performing better than the UK Independence Party and other smaller | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
parties like the Greens and respect. The problem for the BNP if they | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
didn't make any inroads into other groups, they didn't go into the | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
middle class, the young, they didn't go into women and ethnic minorities | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
for obvious reasons. So the party was quickly handicapped from the | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
outset. Not that you would have known that at the outset. In 2006 in | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
Barking and Dagenham, the party won 12 council seats against a back drop | :27:22. | :27:24. | |
of discontent with the ruling Labour council and Government and picking | :27:25. | :27:27. | |
up on immigration and housing concerns in the borough. It's | :27:28. | :27:36. | |
because of all the different nationality people moving in the | :27:37. | :27:38. | |
area, they are taking over everything. My Nan and grandad lived | :27:39. | :27:44. | |
there all their lives. I thought I would vote for BNP. Hopefully, yeah, | :27:45. | :27:51. | |
they will get elected over here. When I came to Barking, Dagenham and | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
Redbridge in 2006, the BNP with a second largest party in one of the | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
local councils. You can even find non-white people who voted BNP. Now | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
they have no counsellors, and even though can when you talk to people, | :28:05. | :28:07. | |
you will find among the older white working-class population concerned | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
that the BNP claim to represent, everyone says they are nowhere. So | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
what happened to that about? On behalf of all the people in Britain, | :28:18. | :28:23. | |
we in Barking have not just beaten, that we have smashed the attempt of | :28:24. | :28:29. | |
extremist outsiders. The local Labour MP was as clear in 2010 as | :28:30. | :28:36. | |
she is now. I always knew if we could manage to ensure that wasn't a | :28:37. | :28:40. | |
single BNP councillor left on the council and I won my seat, it would | :28:41. | :28:43. | |
stop the process of disintegration. But what beat the BNP here in 2010 | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
was a mobilisation of the Labour vote. And today it is not hard to | :28:48. | :28:50. | |
find the same discontent over the same issues. It's just finding a new | :28:51. | :28:59. | |
political home. A couple of years ago, I used to vote Labour. | :29:00. | :29:01. | |
Obviously, they haven't done nothing around here as much now, with jobs | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
and unemployment, and housing and stuff like that about, basically, | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
BNP ain't around here no more. Now it's more about UKIP and I believe | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
that these UKIP are saying are true. If I thought BNP would make the | :29:17. | :29:19. | |
difference, I would vote but is not in the people behind them. They all | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
get bandaged with the same brush. I'm going to vote UKIP because BNP | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
didn't get anywhere. What they say in UKIP, with a bit of luck, they | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
will get somewhere. It's not racist but it's just that our kids haven't | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
got jobs. Nick Griffin's dislike of UKIP is mutual but his once fellow | :29:39. | :29:41. | |
MEP Andrew Brons who's now left the party issued a statement to this | :29:42. | :29:44. | |
programme saying BNP failure is closer to home post 2010. It was | :29:45. | :29:53. | |
after that election discontent arose amongst sections of the membership. | :29:54. | :30:08. | |
Those members who left or were thrown out by Nick Griffin had | :30:09. | :30:12. | |
already felt let down by his appearance on Question Time. It was | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
a national platform for the BNP, something they felt they had the | :30:17. | :30:24. | |
right to through electoral success. This was no big breakthrough moment | :30:25. | :30:31. | |
for Griffin, unlike it was for John Marina pen when he appeared on | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
national television in France. He went on to mobilise a national | :30:37. | :30:39. | |
force. Despite there being some voters tuned to their message, for | :30:40. | :30:42. | |
the BNP, becoming such a force here has never looked quite so difficult. | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
And Simon Derby from the BNP joins me now. Welcome to the Sunday | :30:48. | :30:55. | |
Politics. It was not long ago you had 55 councillors up and down the | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
land, you now have two. You are on the brink of extinction. That is not | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
true. I have watched the film. It is very negative as I would expect. The | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
party has faced a few problems. The main thing to bear in mind is that | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
the issues, the problems the country faces have gone away. We won nearly | :31:16. | :31:22. | |
a million votes in the European elections. We brought that mandate | :31:23. | :31:26. | |
to the establishment and we were denied. Let's face it, we would -- | :31:27. | :31:38. | |
were denied any opportunity to take place in the political apparatus. | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
You have been destroyed by a pincer movement. UKIP has taken away or | :31:43. | :31:49. | |
more respectable voters and the EDL is better at anti-Muslim protests | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
and street thuggery. The EDL is not a political party. I take your point | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
about UKIP. The power structure took a look at us and so we were a threat | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
to power. We were not making this stuff up, we meant it and they have | :32:05. | :32:10. | |
co-opted our message. This shameless promotion of UKIP, you have evenly | :32:11. | :32:16. | |
had him presenting the weather on this programme. That is | :32:17. | :32:20. | |
unbelievable. That was a joke. Across Europe, in France, your | :32:21. | :32:26. | |
sister party the National front will probably do very well. You can see | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
the rise of the far right across Western Europe so why are you in | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
decline? We are not far right, I reject that label. How would you | :32:36. | :32:46. | |
describe yourselves nationalists and Patriots. Why are you in decline and | :32:47. | :32:59. | |
other similar parties to yours are on the rise? You mentioned Barking | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
and it is very interesting because I was involved in that campaign. What | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
Margaret Hodge and her Labour Party did, they replaced the white | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
indigenous population in Barking and Dagenham with Africans, that is how | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
they won that election. For that was true, you would be doing well | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
elsewhere. You have now got a leader who is declared bankrupt and your | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
party is heading for bankruptcy. No, it is not. It is over. You would | :33:26. | :33:33. | |
like that. What I would like is irrelevant. Your membership is in | :33:34. | :33:38. | |
deep decline. All parties have highs and lows. In 2009 they said it is no | :33:39. | :33:44. | |
way you will win any seats in the European election. We did. And then | :33:45. | :33:53. | |
you lost them. Parties win and lose seats. The Lib Dems will be | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
annihilated. You deny you are far right. People used to say the BNP | :33:58. | :34:06. | |
were neo-Nazis. Then Nick Griffin appeared with Golden Dawn. They are | :34:07. | :34:13. | |
not neo-Nazis, they are Nazis. It is part and parcel of being in | :34:14. | :34:19. | |
politics. You have to appear with them? Of course we do, we have to | :34:20. | :34:26. | |
speak to ordinary people. I am perfectly happy speaking to you at | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
the BBC, the BBC have a terrible reputation but I am happy to be | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
here. Mr Griffin has asked me, when will the BBC apologised for trying | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
to put him in prison twice, merely for exposing a Muslim scandal. Why | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
can't Nick Griffin appear on TV and self? He would not appear. He was in | :34:46. | :34:53. | |
Syria. He literally flew out to Damascus and prevented a war. We | :34:54. | :35:00. | |
decided we would not interfere in Syria. The BBC never covered that. | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
Please do not make out we are just an ordinary political party you | :35:06. | :35:08. | |
cover like everybody else. It is completely different. All the signs | :35:09. | :35:15. | |
are, membership, performance at the polls, performance at elections, the | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
problem with your leadership is you are now going the way of the | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
National front, heading for oblivion. As I said to you before, | :35:25. | :35:30. | |
that may be the case, if all the problems we had not highlighted and | :35:31. | :35:33. | |
how we got a huge vote so many years ago, six years ago now, five years | :35:34. | :35:40. | |
ago, in 2009, if they were not around. These things are only going | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
to get worse. We are looking at a prototype Islamic republic that is | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
going to be set up in this country. That will lead to huge problems. | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
Only the British National Party are prepared to say that and deal with | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
it. Word leaked out that I was doing this interview with you before the | :35:57. | :36:02. | |
weekend. Isn't it a sign of how irrelevant you now are that not a | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
single person has turned up at New Broadcasting House this morning to | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
protest? Used to be hundreds would turn up when we said the BNP were | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
on. That is the left for you, they put the clocks forward and they | :36:17. | :36:19. | |
could not be bothered to get out of bed. I think they are still in bed. | :36:20. | :36:22. | |
Thank you. You're watching the Sunday Politics. | :36:23. | :36:26. | |
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
Politics Scotland. Coming up here in 20 minutes, the | :36:32. | :36:39. | |
Hello. On the Sunday Politics Wales, the health minister Mark Drakeford | :36:40. | :36:45. | |
tells me about his plans for public health, and public toilets. Labour | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
leader Ed Miliband says the Welsh NHS is on the right track. And would | :36:51. | :36:55. | |
building thousands of new homes in Gwynedd and Anglesey be a disaster | :36:56. | :37:01. | |
for the Welsh language? The NHS is much improved since | :37:02. | :37:04. | |
devolution, so says the Labour Party. But First Minister Carwyn | :37:05. | :37:08. | |
Jones told the party's Welsh conference yesterday that it must | :37:09. | :37:11. | |
hold up its hands to some failings, including unacceptable examples of | :37:12. | :37:18. | |
poor care. Well, Ed Miliband has heard a thing or two about the Welsh | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
NHS. David Cameron regularly uses allegations of poor standards to | :37:23. | :37:25. | |
attack Labour in the House of Commons. Mr Miliband also spoke to | :37:26. | :37:30. | |
the Welsh Labour conference in Llandudno yesterday, and afterwards | :37:31. | :37:33. | |
the Labour leader spoke to our political editor Nick Servini. | :37:34. | :37:42. | |
Ed Miliband, thank you for your time. We have just caught you after | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
your speech. I want to start about -- want to talk to about the NHS. | :37:48. | :37:53. | |
David Cameron talks about the Welsh NHS all the time, so let's talk | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
about it. You acknowledge there were challenges, particularly with early | :37:59. | :38:04. | |
diagnostics, care that elderly people, is that an acknowledgement | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
there are problems with parts of the Welsh NHS? It is an acknowledgement | :38:09. | :38:14. | |
that there are big challenges. There are big challenges that need to be | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
met. We have an NHS in Wales that is underfunding pressure partly because | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
of the fact that the Welsh budget is being cut by a significant amount. I | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
think these are challenges that Carwyn Jones and Mark Drakeford take | :38:29. | :38:36. | |
seriously. But in cancer treatment, there are positive stories. But | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
there are areas, in diagnostics, for example, more money is being put in | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
because of the challenges. The point about David Cameron is he wants to | :38:48. | :38:50. | |
use the Welsh NHS so as not to talk about the English NHS, where he has | :38:51. | :38:54. | |
done this huge top down reorganisation which nobody wanted, | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
and he promised he wouldn't do. There are issues, and are no Carwyn | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
Jones and Mark are working on it. David Cameron talks about the Welsh | :39:04. | :39:06. | |
NHS because a lot of people are concerned about it. At Westminster | :39:07. | :39:13. | |
level, you can't be happy that there is ammunition in Wales is being used | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
to attack you and what you could conceivably do to an English NHS. | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
What I would say is let's look at the record of the last Conservative | :39:23. | :39:28. | |
government. When they were running the NHS in Wales, there were waiting | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
times of two years for operations. I read don't think anybody in Wales is | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
saying we need the Tories back running the NHS. People know there | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
are challenges, people know that Carwyn Jones has acknowledge there | :39:43. | :39:45. | |
are challenges, and here is seeking to sort them out. What people don't | :39:46. | :39:49. | |
like is the idea of the Tory party chairman coming to Wales and saying, | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
we want to target Wales, not to win votes in Wales but somehow try and | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
use Wales for wider political purposes. I don't think that is what | :40:00. | :40:02. | |
the people of Wales want to see, that isn't how we should conduct our | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
politics. This is part of a big fight back from Labour this weekend. | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
Shouldn't you have done this two months ago? There is this oil tanker | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
of a narrative now that Wales is failing in many services. It seems | :40:17. | :40:23. | |
you have been slow off the mark. I think we have a proud record in | :40:24. | :40:26. | |
terms of some major achievements in Wales. If you look at the | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
unemployment in Wales, lower Jewish and fees, keeping the educational | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
maintenance allowance, better care for kids, flood defences, there is a | :40:36. | :40:39. | |
good story to tell and we will tell it. But I think it is also fair to | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
say that Carwyn has been focused on how to meet the challenges that | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
remain in Wales. That is why he is such a good First Minister, because | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
he is concentrating on meeting those challenges. The Tory party want to | :40:53. | :40:57. | |
use Wales to try to make wider political points, not to help the | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
people of Wales. Have you spoken to and Clywd? Yes, a number of times. | :41:03. | :41:09. | |
Her concerns need to be taken seriously about the NHS. She had a | :41:10. | :41:14. | |
particular personal experience, but it goes wider than that. Her issue | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
is about care for older people, which is something we take | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
seriously, and wider issues about mortality rates, so she has an | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
important and valid point of view. Carwyn Jones publicly criticised | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
over what she's doing. And there is a sense when you speak to party | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
members a frustration and damage that she is doing to the party. Was | :41:37. | :41:41. | |
he right to do that? I am not going to get into that debate. I | :41:42. | :41:45. | |
understand there is difference is of opinion. I know from my | :41:46. | :41:50. | |
conversations with Carwyn, he takes very seriously the issues that Anne | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
razors because he knows the importance of having an NHS working | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
for the people of Wales. Her concerns are being taken seriously | :42:00. | :42:06. | |
both bike Carwyn and Mark Drakeford. Further devolution pals, you touched | :42:07. | :42:13. | |
on it briefly, and you talked about a kind of tidy up and to make it | :42:14. | :42:20. | |
clearer about who has got which power. -- further devolution | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
powers. What about something more concrete which has been | :42:25. | :42:30. | |
recommended, policing. You in favour of devolving? I'm in favour of | :42:31. | :42:36. | |
talking about it. Let's look at the reserve powers models. We had a | :42:37. | :42:40. | |
situation sometime back where the Conservative government was going to | :42:41. | :42:44. | |
court to try to stop the Welsh government protecting their wages of | :42:45. | :42:47. | |
agricultural wages through the agricultural wages board in Wales. | :42:48. | :42:51. | |
We don't want that to happen. It is a sign of our trust in the Welsh | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
Assembly government and in the model of devolution. We say we will move | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
to the reserve powers in Wales that we have in Scotland. It is an | :43:02. | :43:05. | |
important change, it will be welcomed by people as a sign that | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
devolution is working, and it will add confidence to the people of | :43:10. | :43:15. | |
Wales and to the Labour Party. Reform of the Barnett formula, the | :43:16. | :43:18. | |
financial settlement that money comes to Wales and Scotland and | :43:19. | :43:22. | |
Northern Ireland from Westminster. You appear to have a problem. You're | :43:23. | :43:30. | |
the leader in Scotland, key wants to keep it, -- the data in Scotland | :43:31. | :43:38. | |
wants to keep it, Carwyn Jones doesn't. What is going on? It has | :43:39. | :43:44. | |
different impact on different parts of the country. It has served us | :43:45. | :43:48. | |
well, but we have got to look as we did in our last general election | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
manifesto at the specific issues Wales has in relation to this | :43:53. | :43:55. | |
formula in relation to the funding. The Welsh Assembly government, | :43:56. | :44:01. | |
Carwyn feels that the formula has a particular impact on Wales, which I | :44:02. | :44:04. | |
understand, which is something we will look at. We have a review of | :44:05. | :44:10. | |
public spending going on. I think the formula can continue to serve | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
us, we have to look at Wales. So, a review of the formula? Know, the | :44:15. | :44:23. | |
specific needs that Wales has and -- no, the specific needs that Wales | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
has needs to be looked at. In terms of the context of all those attacks | :44:29. | :44:32. | |
on Labour and the Welsh government, is this a party under siege? No, | :44:33. | :44:38. | |
absolutely not. This is a party delivering for the people of Wales, | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
and delivering on so many things that matter, like a implement, | :44:43. | :44:45. | |
education, there's bread and butter issues. -- like unemployment. I met | :44:46. | :44:54. | |
a young man yesterday who has been but back to work, and on some of | :44:55. | :45:00. | |
these key issues, we have lessons to learn. This is a party moving | :45:01. | :45:06. | |
forward, which has confidence about the European elections and the next | :45:07. | :45:08. | |
general election. You heard Ed Miliband talk about | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
pressure on the NHS. So as part of an effort to keep us healthy, and | :45:13. | :45:15. | |
keep us out of the doctor's surgery, the Welsh government will publish a | :45:16. | :45:18. | |
Public Health white paper on Wednesday. It'll include a proposal | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
to force councils to make sure there are enough public toilets available. | :45:23. | :45:25. | |
Back in Llandudno, Health Minister Mark Drakeford told me about his | :45:26. | :45:28. | |
plans, and about how Labour responds to the political pressure on its | :45:29. | :45:32. | |
record. Toilets for use by the public is a | :45:33. | :45:36. | |
genuine public health issue in Wales. When I chaired the Health | :45:37. | :45:40. | |
Committee in the Assembly, we conducted a one- day enquiry into | :45:41. | :45:43. | |
the public health impact of not having sufficient toilets for use by | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
the public. We received a tremendous response, particularly from | :45:48. | :45:48. | |
organisations representing older people. We know that if people are | :45:49. | :45:54. | |
not confident that they will have the facilities they need, then it | :45:55. | :45:57. | |
has a distorting effect on their lives. They stay at home when they'd | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
like to go out, they don't take tablets they need to take in order | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
to be able to go out. And, for older people, people with some mental | :46:08. | :46:09. | |
health conditions, people with young families and children, a fact they | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
need to be confident that there are proper facilities that they can use, | :46:14. | :46:17. | |
that they want to be out in our society is a genuine public health | :46:18. | :46:23. | |
issue. If public toilets are so important, then why not provide the | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
money to keep them open? Because that is the reason they close, | :46:28. | :46:30. | |
councils can't afford them. In an age of austerity, the answer simply | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
cannot be to find more money for it. What we have to do is be more | :46:35. | :46:38. | |
imaginative in the way we think about this. And you'll see in the | :46:39. | :46:41. | |
White Paper we don't talk about public toilets. We talk about | :46:42. | :46:44. | |
toilets for use by the public. And what will expect local | :46:45. | :46:47. | |
authorities... What is the difference between the two? The | :46:48. | :46:50. | |
difference is that there are large numbers, we think, of potential | :46:51. | :46:53. | |
facilities that are not thought of as public toilets but which are | :46:54. | :46:56. | |
toilets provided by the public purse which we believe local authorities, | :46:57. | :46:59. | |
planning properly, will be able to make more of so that people | :47:00. | :47:02. | |
understand that if there is a toilet available in the leisure centre, in | :47:03. | :47:05. | |
their community Centre, in a library, in an arts centre, all of | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
which are being paid for by the public purse, those are toilets | :47:10. | :47:12. | |
available for use by the public. But we know that older people are | :47:13. | :47:16. | |
nervous of going into those places in case they are somehow challenged. | :47:17. | :47:22. | |
"What are you doing in here? You shouldn't be doing this." Well, we | :47:23. | :47:25. | |
know that isn't the case. And we want local authorities to plan for | :47:26. | :47:29. | |
exactly that. There are other things in the White Paper, I expect. We | :47:30. | :47:32. | |
know what the government's position is on the minimum pricing of alcohol | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
and last time on the Sunday Politics, you told us your opinion | :47:37. | :47:39. | |
of e-cigarettes. What else can we expect to see in your White Paper? | :47:40. | :47:43. | |
Well, I have been very keen that we have a White Paper which is | :47:44. | :47:46. | |
intensely practical, which looks at measures, practical things that we | :47:47. | :47:49. | |
can do, across that great swathe of things that make such a difference | :47:50. | :47:53. | |
to future health. So, that includes smoking, it includes e-cigarettes, | :47:54. | :47:55. | |
it includes alcohol, it includes obesity, but there will be other | :47:56. | :48:01. | |
things in the White Paper as well. Our aim is to take practical action, | :48:02. | :48:05. | |
using the legislative powers the Assembly has to improve the future | :48:06. | :48:10. | |
health of the nation. Put it another way, your aim is to keep people | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
healthy so they don't have to go to the doctor or to the hospital. We | :48:15. | :48:18. | |
heard in Ed Miliband's speech that there is pressure on the NHS and | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
challenges for the Welsh government. You had a lot of criticism from your | :48:23. | :48:27. | |
opponents. Is that justified criticism? I've never argued that | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
everything is perfect in the Welsh NHS. Nor that there are things that | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
we work very hard at everyday with staff in the service to do better in | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
the future. But what Ed Miliband was referring to was that cynical, | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
deliberate... Organised effort by the Conservative Party in London, | :48:46. | :48:48. | |
not simply to attack the NHS, not to attack Welsh Labour, not to attack | :48:49. | :48:55. | |
even a Welsh Labour government. But as Grant Shapps, the Conservative | :48:56. | :48:58. | |
Chairman, said, when he was here in Wales, to attack Wales as part of | :48:59. | :49:03. | |
their election strategy. And that's absolutely not acceptable to us. | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
It's not acceptable to people who work in the health service. And it's | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
certainly not acceptable to people who rely on the services it provides | :49:14. | :49:17. | |
every single day. But they now say, hang on, you're trying to describe | :49:18. | :49:20. | |
this as a war on Wales because you don't want to defend your record. | :49:21. | :49:24. | |
Because look at the waiting times. And you don't have a record to | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
defend. I am absolutely happy to defend our record. The standard | :49:29. | :49:31. | |
waiting time in Wales, from referral to treatment, is 11 weeks. Contrast | :49:32. | :49:35. | |
that when the Tories were in power in Wales. They couldn't even manage | :49:36. | :49:40. | |
an 18 month waiting time target. We can defend our record because our | :49:41. | :49:43. | |
record in Wales is one of steady investment, steady improvement, and | :49:44. | :49:46. | |
meeting the needs of the Welsh public. What we will not do is allow | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
our opponents to portray the exceptional as the typical. To point | :49:52. | :49:57. | |
to the few failings, which appear in any organisation, which we are | :49:58. | :50:01. | |
determined to put right. And to make those failings appear as though they | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
tell the story. When what we know is that every single day right across | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
Wales the NHS does amazing good in the lives of the Welsh people. Mark | :50:10. | :50:14. | |
Drakeford, thank you very much. Thank you. | :50:15. | :50:18. | |
Nick Servini our political editor is still at the Welsh Labour conference | :50:19. | :50:21. | |
where delegates have this morning heard from shadow Welsh Secretary | :50:22. | :50:33. | |
Owen Smith. What did he say? Well, he has just finished speaking. The | :50:34. | :50:37. | |
delegates have been pouring out of the auditorium. We were promised | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
something meaty in terms of the constitutional settlement and we got | :50:43. | :50:46. | |
something. We got a much clearer idea of what it would mean if Labour | :50:47. | :50:52. | |
won the next general election. What and Smith said was that he would | :50:53. | :50:56. | |
push, subject to fairer funding, which I will talk about in a minute, | :50:57. | :51:01. | |
and a referendum, following a model that has been proposed by the | :51:02. | :51:03. | |
Scottish Labour Party which would give Welsh government of 15p in the | :51:04. | :51:12. | |
pound on income tax. The crucial bit is there is already a model of | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
income tax that is in the process of being devolved. It is a rigid | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
structure meaning any changes of any of the bands have to be mirrored | :51:21. | :51:23. | |
right across the different bands. Under this proposal, there would be | :51:24. | :51:29. | |
leeway for a Welsh government to increase the top rate of income | :51:30. | :51:33. | |
tax. So, in theory, the Welsh government could save that they | :51:34. | :51:40. | |
could reintroduce the 50p top band tax on income. A couple of things to | :51:41. | :51:48. | |
say. Firstly, it depends on what a future Labour government would do on | :51:49. | :51:51. | |
fairer funding from the allocation from Westminster. Ed Miliband, when | :51:52. | :51:56. | |
I spoke to him earlier, he said they would look at this. He said there | :51:57. | :52:01. | |
would be no major commitment to do that. Also, Owen Smith, in a way, | :52:02. | :52:06. | |
putting a brake on some of the expectations by saying it is not a | :52:07. | :52:09. | |
priority for them to change income tax at the moment. And the message | :52:10. | :52:17. | |
from him is that if Labour was to win the next general election, there | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
would be some powers but it would only go so far. In a radio interview | :52:22. | :52:26. | |
this morning he was talking about while devolution may evolve, he said | :52:27. | :52:32. | |
we are approaching the endgame in terms of the devolution process. | :52:33. | :52:38. | |
Something in Carwyn Jones speech struck me yesterday, when he | :52:39. | :52:42. | |
described the situation of the Tory attacks on his records as Wales | :52:43. | :52:45. | |
versus Conservative Central office, do you get the sense that his troops | :52:46. | :52:52. | |
in Llandudno like his fighting talk was Mac it was very striking. -- | :52:53. | :52:58. | |
like his fighting talk? It was very striking. It is a two horse fight | :52:59. | :53:01. | |
here between the Labour and Conservatives. And I get the | :53:02. | :53:05. | |
impression they are happy for it to be that way. The Lib Dems, Plaid | :53:06. | :53:11. | |
Cymru and UKIP, the danger for them is they will be edged out of this | :53:12. | :53:16. | |
debate in the general election campaign during the next year. In | :53:17. | :53:20. | |
terms of the strategy we have seen from Carwyn Jones and Ed Miliband | :53:21. | :53:25. | |
this weekend, there were easy elements and hard elements. The hard | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
bit, and it will be interesting to see to what extent Carwyn Jones | :53:30. | :53:35. | |
admitted to problems in the NHS. If you didn't do that, he would risk | :53:36. | :53:38. | |
the accusation he is in denial. If there is too much, he gives | :53:39. | :53:42. | |
ammunition to the political opponents. He talked about problems | :53:43. | :53:48. | |
with diagnostics, problems with complacency in senior management, | :53:49. | :53:51. | |
and problems with the complaints system. That is further than he has | :53:52. | :53:55. | |
ever gone before in terms of admitting some of the problems in | :53:56. | :54:00. | |
the NHS. The easy bit, and you are here yesterday to hear a lot of | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
this, is this scrap they are building and gearing up for with the | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
Conservatives. In a fortnight, we have the Welsh Conservatives | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
conference, an opportunity for them to fight back. But it is a real | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
sense of satisfaction, I think, from the Labour Party members that this | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
is the terms of the battle ahead for the next year. Good to talk to you, | :54:22. | :54:25. | |
thank you for joining us. Opponents to a blueprint for more | :54:26. | :54:28. | |
housing across Gwynedd and Anglesey say it could be disastrous for the | :54:29. | :54:32. | |
Welsh language. Campaigners say proposals to build 8,000 homes in | :54:33. | :54:35. | |
the two counties overestimate the local need for housing. Gwynedd | :54:36. | :54:38. | |
Council's leader says they're balancing the need for affordable | :54:39. | :54:41. | |
homes with protection for the language. Bethan Lewis has more. | :54:42. | :54:50. | |
Making sure there's enough housing available is one of government's | :54:51. | :54:54. | |
basic functions. But questions about where new houses are located are | :54:55. | :55:00. | |
often hugely controversial. Here in Penrhos Garnedd in Bangor, there has | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
been a lot of opposition to two new proposals to build new homes. The | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
work's already started on this site with 250 new houses are being built. | :55:10. | :55:14. | |
At the moment, a plan is being considered to build a further 360 | :55:15. | :55:21. | |
new homes on a site nearby. The concerns raised here about the | :55:22. | :55:24. | |
impact on local services and on language are the big issues in a | :55:25. | :55:27. | |
wider debate in Gwynedd and Anglesey about future housing needs. | :55:28. | :55:32. | |
Yesterday, Cymdeithas yr Iaith, the Welsh language society, held a rally | :55:33. | :55:38. | |
in Caernarvon. They say that plans for 8,000 new houses for their two | :55:39. | :55:41. | |
counties over the next decade will damage the language. They question | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
the need for and affordability of the housing for local people. And | :55:46. | :55:51. | |
fear it'll be taken up in large part by people moving into the area. The | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
people who are moving, who do not speak Welsh, will probably not learn | :55:57. | :56:02. | |
Welsh. And we've seen over the past ten years with the results of the | :56:03. | :56:05. | |
last census that the number of Welsh speakers in Gwynedd have gone down | :56:06. | :56:11. | |
markedly. And with more and more housing being built for people who | :56:12. | :56:14. | |
move in from outside the area, that is only going to have a bigger | :56:15. | :56:18. | |
impact and put more pressure on the Welsh language. Every local | :56:19. | :56:22. | |
authority has to draw up a local development plan, setting out how | :56:23. | :56:25. | |
many new homes are needed and where they should be located. Gwynedd and | :56:26. | :56:31. | |
Anglesey's plan is a joint one over a 15 year period. At the moment, | :56:32. | :56:35. | |
they're planning for 8,400 extra homes. | :56:36. | :56:39. | |
In Gwynedd, the council says that a closer look suggests there will be | :56:40. | :56:44. | |
far fewer new-builds than opponents suggest. The overall figure for | :56:45. | :56:52. | |
Gwynedd alone is 4,700 homes. But the council says over 1,800 have | :56:53. | :56:55. | |
already been built or have been given planning permission. And a | :56:56. | :57:00. | |
further 1,000 will be provided by converting or updating existing | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
buildings in the large towns. That means, they say, that new land is | :57:06. | :57:08. | |
needed for fewer than 2,000 new homes. Gwynedd's council leader from | :57:09. | :57:13. | |
Plaid Cymru argues they are sensitive to concerns about the | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
language. If something like 200 or so homes, new homes a year, which is | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
not a substantial figure, and, I think, actually, we are aiming to | :57:23. | :57:25. | |
strike the balance between meeting the housing need and making sure | :57:26. | :57:28. | |
that we don't upset that balance of the linguistic, social and economic | :57:29. | :57:39. | |
make-up of our communities. But there are concerns within the Plaid | :57:40. | :57:44. | |
Cymru group on the council. In a letter to colleagues, one Plaid | :57:45. | :57:46. | |
Cymru Parliamentary candidate said she feared it could cost the party | :57:47. | :57:49. | |
politically and could endanger holding on to the their seats. That | :57:50. | :57:57. | |
is not my opinion. And I think that is based on evidence of what I hear | :57:58. | :58:01. | |
on a daily basis. People are looking for a party and members of | :58:02. | :58:04. | |
Parliament and Assembly Members who will respond to the agenda that we | :58:05. | :58:11. | |
face. Welsh government figures are the starting point for council's | :58:12. | :58:15. | |
housing plans. Gwynedd and Anglesey council say they've successfully | :58:16. | :58:17. | |
challenged the government's feud on the projected population increase in | :58:18. | :58:23. | |
their areas. One North Wales Assembly Member says there is a | :58:24. | :58:27. | |
wider concern about the figures. I think the biggest problem is the | :58:28. | :58:30. | |
number of houses that the Welsh government is suggesting should be | :58:31. | :58:34. | |
built in certain areas. And, clearly, some of the local | :58:35. | :58:36. | |
authorities have had increased the number of houses that they are | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
willing to build, whilst there are still some others who, in some | :58:41. | :58:43. | |
instances, are having to go back to the drawing board. And, others, | :58:44. | :58:48. | |
where there are still ongoing discussions. The Welsh government | :58:49. | :58:53. | |
says the councils are able to challenge the figures but, | :58:54. | :58:55. | |
ultimately, it's the council's responsibility to identify the | :58:56. | :59:00. | |
housing needs of their areas. In Gwynedd, the issue's prompted | :59:01. | :59:03. | |
protest and passionate argument on both sides. And, with two years left | :59:04. | :59:08. | |
before the plan's finalised, that is set to continue. | :59:09. | :59:14. | |
That report from Bethan Lewis. And that's all from us this week. We're | :59:15. | :59:23. | |
well conference season. We've heard from Plaid Cymru and labour, next | :59:24. | :59:28. | |
weekend, it is the turn of the Welsh Liberal Democrats who will be | :59:29. | :59:31. | |
holding their spring conference at the University of Wales in Newport. | :59:32. | :59:34. | |
boundaries. Sorry, run out of time. Thanks very much indeed. Andrew, | :59:35. | :59:35. | |
back to you. Now let's get more from our | :59:36. | :59:49. | |
political panel. If the BNP finished? They were never | :59:50. | :59:54. | |
spectacularly successful to begin with but one of my childhood | :59:55. | :59:57. | |
memories was a huge fuss in London about the fact that they won a few | :59:58. | :00:01. | |
council seat on the Isle of dogs back in 1993. That was enough to | :00:02. | :00:04. | |
cause a panic. As if they are falling from a great tit and I think | :00:05. | :00:07. | |
the big difference with the National front in France is that they are | :00:08. | :00:12. | |
building on decades of successful that they finished second in the | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
presence of elections in 2002, I think. And, even in the 60s, they | :00:16. | :00:21. | |
were versions of their politics. So they are building on a lot whereas | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
the BNP are working with incredibly few raw materials in this country. | :00:26. | :00:33. | |
It is interesting that the BNP does seem to be in decline in terms of | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
its membership and financially, but in France, the far right party, not | :00:40. | :00:45. | |
as far right as the BNP, but pretty far right, will probably do well in | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
the second round of the French local elections. You could say the same | :00:50. | :00:56. | |
about Golden Dawn in Greece. Parties prosper when the picture is | :00:57. | :01:02. | |
pre-rolled for them. If mainstream parties talk endlessly about | :01:03. | :01:05. | |
immigration, saying you cannot get a council house because it has gone to | :01:06. | :01:08. | |
an immigrant instead of saying it is because there are not enough council | :01:09. | :01:11. | |
houses, that creates the conditions in which the far right can thrive. | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
We are lucky that all the members of the BNP fell out with each other. As | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
extreme members of the far right and left do. You can see that with the | :01:22. | :01:27. | |
comedian in France, he has got a lot of support from people on the left | :01:28. | :01:35. | |
as well. I asked Simon Derby was here victim of a pincer movement | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
that UKIP were taken away voters and EDL has captured the Street protest. | :01:42. | :01:52. | |
Yes, and Giles still not mention that the Labour Party has got its | :01:53. | :01:55. | |
act together. They got the act together in Dagenham. Margaret Hodge | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
and Jon Cruddas did a very good job. I think UKIP would say, not a racist | :02:01. | :02:06. | |
party but they are picking up votes from people who would once have | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
voted BNP. But it is interesting the difference between Britain and | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
France. Why is it that the Front Nationale came second in 2002 when | :02:18. | :02:25. | |
they are not far right? I think they were on a five-year cycle because | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
the next election was 2007. 2002 they came second when Jean-Marie Le | :02:32. | :02:40. | |
Pen came second. They are not as far right as the BNP. Marine has put | :02:41. | :02:50. | |
them -- cleaned them up a bit. Diplomatically there is a much | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
harder vote which spreads further across the electorate in France than | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
there is in this country. This is a much more tolerant country. If | :03:00. | :03:13. | |
Marine Le Pen does well today, she will not win that many because the | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
centre-right and centre-left will always gang up against terror in the | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
second round, but it sets the tone for the European elections. It does | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
and for the next French presidential election as well. I think what she's | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
doing masterfully is combining a far right politics with what you might | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
call a far left economic politics. She's not just picking up votes from | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
xenophobes, she is picking up votes from who feel victimised from | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
globalisation. They are people who would be voting for socialists but | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
are put off by the current president. That is what I do not | :03:51. | :03:53. | |
think the British far right parties have been able to do. You sort Simon | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
Derby try to tell you that the BNP are not far right party. I think he | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
was going to say if you look at issues of protectionism, standing up | :04:04. | :04:06. | |
against globalisation, they are quite statist. That is where the | :04:07. | :04:13. | |
phrase National Socialist comes from. That is why a little bit of | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
electoral success is often a killer for far right parties. They get a | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
few council seats and then they are rubbish. They are not getting | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
people's bins collected so they become part of the system that | :04:27. | :04:29. | |
people were voting against in the first place. Lets go on to the | :04:30. | :04:35. | |
Labour Party. If you are a Labour Party supporter and you want to be | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
cheered up, you pick up the Sunday Times where you see a poll where the | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
leader is up to seven points. If you are Tory Lib Dem and you want to be | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
cheered up, you pick up the Observer, the left-wing paper, where | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
the Labour leader is still 1%. I have read in the paper that there is | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
quite a lot of of the record briefings going on at the top of the | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
Labour Party. Give us a sense of the mood. Clearly, they are unsettled. | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
One pol looks OK but there has been a run of polls where there is a lead | :05:09. | :05:18. | |
over the Tories which is closing. There are worrying number of people | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
who are what are called the 35s and they are people who thought all the | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
Labour Party needs to do is sit still because there are a number of | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
Liberal Democrat voters who hate the coalition. Because the Conservatives | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
did not get through the boundary changes they needed to win, we can | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
sit tight and it will all be fine. What a few wise old heads are | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
concerned about is they feel this has a feel of 1987 about it when the | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
Labour Party was united. They had a very good leader. The leader was | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
impressive, the party was united and then what happened? They met the | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
British people and an election. The British people said, terribly sorry, | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
you are not occupying the party political territory where we will | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
vote for you. There are some people from the Blair era who say it feels | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
a bit complacent and there may be a bit of a shock when they meet the | :06:15. | :06:21. | |
voters. We talk about people being unsettled but Ed Miliband is not | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
unsettled. His defining characteristic is you might call it | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
steadiness or you might call it a lack of agility. He could not | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
respond to the pension stuff in the budget which was thrown at him. But | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
he's very good at separating the signal from the noise. They may | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
think this will all change in me. The Tories may be on the back foot | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
after the European elections. He has the ability to set the political | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
weather. He did it with the price freeze. There is no doubt that Mr | :06:50. | :06:57. | |
Davey would not be referring these energy companies to the competition | :06:58. | :07:00. | |
authorities if it had not been for that speech by the Labour leader. | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
And we read today he has come up with another policy which will be | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
attention grabbing to cut student tuition fees. It is easy to forget | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
that before he announced the price freeze he was in as much vertical | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
trouble as he is now. I think the Labour poll lead will expand up to | :07:19. | :07:25. | |
five or 6% by the summer, assuming the Tories do badly. The question | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
is, is five or 6% enough? Nick through the analogy with 1987. This | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
reminds me of the Conservatives in 2009/10. You have a steadily sinking | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
poll lead, differences in what campaign they should be running and | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
personal animosity behind the scenes. It led to them throwing away | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
an election which seemed to be winnable. There is an important | :07:51. | :07:57. | |
difference with the 1980s which was because you did not know when the | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
election would be. Will it be in 87 or 88? They do not need to make up | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
their mind until next year. What they are telling the pollsters now, | :08:07. | :08:09. | |
we do not like this government because of course, you do not like | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
the government. But next January or February they will be making up | :08:13. | :08:18. | |
their minds. Is there a lot of animosity among the leading Labour | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
figures behind-the-scenes? It must be personal or tactical because | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
there are not big ideological differences between them, is there? | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
Yes and no. What is striking is how little support Miliband gets from | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
the shadow cabinet. He does not have outriders. That has been a | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
continuous theme. Said he feels he is on his own? That they feel they | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
do not get support from him. There was a column by Jenni Russell saying | :08:48. | :08:55. | |
he is distant and detached. And Andrew Walmsley touched on this in | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
the Observer. One of the divisions is Ed versus Ed. There is a terrible | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
structural problem between those two. It is a real problem. Ed | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
Miliband believes Ed Balls has not done enough to get economic red | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
ability. Ed Balls believes Ed Miliband is making airy fairy | :09:17. | :09:19. | |
speeches and it will not cut with the electorate. Neither Mr Cameron | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
nor Mr Miller band took part in the debate which happened earlier this | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
week between the Lib Dems and UKIP. We have got another one coming up on | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
the BBC on Wednesday night. Let's remind ourselves of what happened in | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
last week's debate. I will ask Nick to open the batting. | :09:40. | :09:47. | |
We are better off in Europe... Frankly not working any more. A | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
referendum on Europe. I agree with you. I agree with you. If you can | :09:53. | :09:59. | |
read the small print. Pull up the drawbridge, pool drawbridge up... We | :10:00. | :10:09. | |
have 485 million people... It is simply not true! Not true. Not true. | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
Not true. Identical with Nick. I don't agree with Nick. Based on | :10:16. | :10:23. | |
facts, facts, the facts, facts, the facts... Thank God we did not listen | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
to you. The food is getting better here. Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. You | :10:30. | :10:37. | |
have never had a proper job. Great not little England. Good night. | :10:38. | :10:44. | |
I think it is seven o'clock BBC Two. Helen, what was the outcome of that | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
and how do we mark our card for this week? It was not a great time for | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
pundits. Everybody called the debate for Nick and then they said | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
actually, we think it has gone the other way. Consensus emerged later | :11:00. | :11:06. | |
on that Nick Clegg made a difficult argument. I think the most important | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
thing Nigel Farage said was he distinguished out the immigration | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
policy by saying we're not just closing day over, we want people to | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
come, we just do not want mass EU immigration. That is an important | :11:20. | :11:21. | |
thing for him to say to get away from the echoes of the far right. I | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
suspect Nick Clegg will not ask us to read the small print. That was 11 | :11:27. | :11:34. | |
turn he took. It compounded his reputation for being sneaky. I | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
slightly disagree about the pundits. I say this as someone who thought | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
far it would win. -- Nigel Farage would win. The fact that the public | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
disagree with you and the public favoured Nigel Farage does not mean | :11:50. | :11:56. | |
the public were wrong. The question is, who is going to tune in for the | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
second one? What is the answer to that? Phil Collins argument is a man | :12:02. | :12:08. | |
who is on 8% is fantastic. It is a binary choice in this debate. | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
Clearly they need to brush up on opposite areas. Nigel Farage needs | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
to brush up on facts and Nick Clegg needs to brush up on the motions | :12:18. | :12:20. | |
because he did not connect very well. Where Nick Clegg may go after | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
Nigel Farage is when the -- when he said the EU has blood on its hands | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
with Ukraine. He then came back to talk about the vanity of EU foreign | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
policy and said European Union had made what was going on in Syria | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
worse. It is one thing to say I do not think the UK should be part of | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
the joint European foreign policy, it is part of another thing to say | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
that Europe which will act with or without the UK is responsible for | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
blood on the streets of Kiev and also responsible for exacerbating | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
the Civil War in Syria. Maybe an hour is too long for Nigel Farage's | :12:57. | :13:03. | |
shtick? That may be the case but Nick Clegg has precedence. He does | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
that show and he has had to deal with the worst thing with dealing | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
with what is thrown at him so he has honed his view consistently. We will | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
see what happens in part two. That's all for this week. The Daily | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
Politics is on BBC Two at lunchtime every day this week. I'll be here | :13:21. | :13:23. | |
next week at the usual time of 11 o'clock. Remember if it's Sunday, | :13:24. | :13:25. | |
it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:26. | :13:33. |