06/07/2014 Sunday Politics Wales

Up to a million public sector workers will strike this week.

It's one of the biggest walk-outs since 2010.

The country's top trade unionist Frances O'Grady and

Tory Business Minister Matt Hancock go head-to-head.

The Tour de France seems to have cheered him up - just as well

for the Deputy Prime Minister hasn't got much else to smile about.

Nick Clegg joins me live from Sheffield to discuss the

Just over ten weeks until Scotland determines its future.

The man leading the campaign AGAINST independence, Alistair Darling,

joins me from Edinburgh. Later in the programme.

And with me throughout the show, three top-flight political

journalists always ahead of the peleton - Nick Watt,

They'll be tweeting faster than Tour de France cyclists can pedal.

The news is dominated this morning by stories swirling

around allegations of an historic Westminster paedophile ring.

Concern has grown because of the disappearance of a dossier

handed over to the Home Office in 1983, along with over 100 official

files related to it and possibly containing details of historic child

Labour is calling for a public inquiry led by a child protection

But speaking earlier on The Andrew Marr Show this morning

the Education Secretary Michael Gove ruled that out.

The most important thing that we need to do is ensure that the due

process of law pursues those who may be guilty of individual crimes and

we also learn lessons about what may or may not have gone wrong in the

past, but it is also important to emphasise that many of the

allegations that are being made are historic. And what we do now in

order to keep children safer is better and stronger than was the

case when 20 or 30 years ago. Without getting into a boring

tit-for-tat, public inquiry, "yes" or "no"? No. Helen, can the

Government go on resisting calls for a full-scale inquiry? It is very

hard. There are cynical and non-cynical reasons for calling for

an inquiry. The cynical one allows you to say I can't comment on this.

The non-cynical is it manages to get people to air allegations in a way

that is safe. What we saw at the Leveson Inquiry was helpful, people

who felt they had been shut out from justice getting a chance to tell

their side of the story. A public inquiry in this case is a good idea.

Labour have called for a lot of public inquiries. A list was made in

2012 of how many they called for. Not only Savile, but the West Coast

Main Line and breast implants. On this particular issue, the people

don't trust the politicians, they don't trust the police either

because they may have been complicit in a cover-up. They may not trust

the Home Office who we are told some of their officials were mentioned in

the dossier? That is what David Cameron is hanging on to. This is a

matter now because they are alleged criminal activity, it is for the

police to investigate. In that big piece in the Sunday Times, Tim

Shipman reports one of the people making the allegations lives in the

United States making the allegations lives in the

been out to the United States to interview him. The Prime Minister

would say that is how serious the police are taking it. The problem

for the Prime Minister - he police are taking it. The problem

allergic to big public inquiry. His finest moment was his response to

the Bloody Sunday inquiry shortly after he became Prime

inrequest -- that inquiry took 12 years to report. The problem is the

dossier has gone missing, the files have gone missing, more allegations

keep coming out either directly or indirectly. It doesn't look like it

is going to go away? The fact the dossiers are missing means it is

inappropriate for the Home Office to be investigating this. There is

inappropriate for the Home Office to a police investigation. If after

that, there are questions unanswered which can only be answered by

that, there are questions unanswered public inquiry, or which require

resources that can only be commanded by a public inquiry, I could see the

case for going down that road. I fear that sometimes in this country

we invest almost supernatural powers in what a public inquiry can do. I

wonder whether there is another example of a country that goes

through this stale ritual every few years of a scandal emerging, the

opposition calling for an inquiry, the Government saying no and then

holding the line or giving in. I don't know what we think this

inquiries can do. It comes back to your point, Helen, you should be

careful what you call an inquiry on so it doesn't devalue the concept.

On Thursday up to a million public sector workers - including teachers,

firemen and council workers - will go on strike.

Their unions have differing gripes but the fact they're all striking

on the same day is designed to send a strong message to the government.

As the economy picks up again they're demanding an end

Growth has returned strongly to the UK economy

and unemployment is at its lowest level for more than five years.

So why is there still talk of austerity

The deficit is coming down but much more slowly than the government

And accumulated deficits - the national debt -

The UK is now in hock to the tune of ?1.3 trillion - and rising.

In fact, we're only 40% of the way through George Osborne's planned

austerity, with the chancellor now saying he won't manage to balance

Unions are now rebelling against tight pay controls.

Since 2010, average public sector pay, which goes to about 1 in 5

Over the same period, prices increased by 16% -

meaning the average public sector worker saw their pay squeezed

Going head-to-head on the public sector strikes and austerity -

the general secretary of the TUC Frances O'Grady, and Conservative

We have seen it, public sector pay squeezed by 9% under the Coalition

Government. Isn't it time to take your foot off the brake a bit? I

don't think it is the right time to let go of the public finances at

all. We were always clear that this is what's called a structural

deficit, it doesn't go away just because the growth is returning and

the economy is coming back. We have protected and are protecting the

lowest paid public sector workers who weren't part of the pay freeze

and now pay going up by 1%. These are difficult decisions. We have had

that discussion many times. They are necessary in order to keep that plan

on track and as we can see in the wider economy, it is working.

People's living standards will have to continue to fall if you are in

the public sector? We need to keep public spending under control and

pay restraint is one of the main ways of being able... The answer is

yes? The answer is this is necessary. The answer is yes, this

is necessary. It isn't because we want to. We have to. This strike

isn't going to change the Government's mind, is it? It does

seem like the Government isn't listening. We have had years... They

are listening, they just don't agree. Ordinary people, including

those in the public sector, are finding it really tough. What really

sticks in the throat is the idea that money can be found to give tax

cuts to billionaires, to millionaires and to big

corporations. But it can't be found to help 500,000 workers in local

government, dinner ladies, school meal workers, lollipop men and women

who are earning less than the living wage. What do you say to that? We

have protected those who are the least well-paid in the public

sector. But this is about a long-term... How can you? Hold on.

You have said you have protected them. This involves ordinary people,

many watching this programme, they have had a 1% pay rise in some cases

since 2010. The average gas bill is up 57%, electric bill up 22%, food

costs up 16%, running a car 11%, in what way have you protected people

from spending they have to make? Firstly, you read out the average

increases in public sector pay. That has had the biggest impact at the

top end and those at the bottom end have been best protected, as best we

could. Of course, we have also taken two million people out of income tax

and increased the income tax threshold which has a big positive

impact. We have frozen and then cut fuel duty, which would have been 20

pence higher. I wanted to take on this point about priorities. We have

got to make sure that we get the economy going at the same time and

we raised more money from those at the top than we did before 2010,

partly because we have encouraged them to invest. And this is a really

important balance of making sure we get the books back in order, we have

stability for family finances and we get the economy going. Why not

spread the living wage? We know you could pay for that pay increase

itself if you spread the living wage through the private sector and

guarantee... The living wage being above the minimum wage? Absolutely.

?7.65 in the rest of the country, ?8.80 in London. What is the answer?

I'm a fan of the minimum wage. But not for public sector workers. Being

able to pay low-paid workers as much as possible within the constraints

of the public finances is something I have pushed very hard. The

evidence we can increase the minimum wage has to be balanced which the

Low Pay Commission do with the impact on the number of jobs... Even

after a pay freeze for quite a while among public sector workers, they

are still paid 15% on average more than those in the private sector?

That is not true. It is, according to the ONS figures. I read that

report this morning. If you look at the whole package, what they are

saying is public service workers are worse off. Average earnings in the

public sector are ?16.28 an hour compared to ?14.16 private. You are

comparing apples and pears. It's the kind of jobs and the size of the

workplace that people work in. They are still overall on average better

off? Lower paid workers tend to be better off because unions negotiate

better deals for lower paid workers. They are more unionised in the pry

private sector. The public sector is worse off. This is a political

strike, isn't it? There is a whole disparate range of reasons. The

strike is saying that you are against this Government, that is

what this is about? I this I what firefighters, local government

workers and health workers who are protesting, too, alongside teachers

are saying is that this Government is not listening, it is out of

touch, people can't carry on having cuts in their living standards

depending on benefits. When will the public sector worker ever get a real

increase in their pay under a Conservative Government? Well, we

certainly hope to have the books balanced by 2018. Not before then?

2018 is when we hope to be able to be in surplus. It is testament...

So, no real pay increase for public sector workers before 2018?

Interestingly, this isn't just about the Conservatives and the Lib Dems,

the Labour Party leadership have said it is a test of their

credibility that they support the squeeze on public sector pay. I look

forward to them, they ought to come out and say very clearly that these

strikes are wrong and they are against the strikes and stop taking

union money. It is a democratic right. Hold on. They are - they

think the policy of pay restraint is necessary. Alright. On this point

about democracy... Ask yourself why so many ordinary decent public

service workers are so fed up. They have seen so many billions of pounds

wasted through outsourcing to organisations like G4 S. In Unite

and UNISON the turnout in this vote was under 20%. Alright. OK. One

final question... Hold on. You said millions and millions voted on

this... I want to ask you this question. Is the story in the Mail

on Sunday today that Mr Cameron's planning a big crackdown on the

unions over balloting, is that true? Well, strikes like this... I know

the cases, is it true you are going to dhang the law? Strikes like this

make that argument stronger. The Conservative Party is in Government

on the basis of 23% of the electorate... We have run out of

time. Thank you very much. "Should Scotland be

an independent country?" That's the question the people of

Scotland will answer in a referendum If the polls are to be believed,

the voters will answer "no". But in 2011 - ten weeks before

the Holyrood elections - the polls told us that Labour was going to win

and look what happened there - a Alistair Darling is leading

the campaign against independnence. is one that puts the matter of

independence to bed for a generation. In numerical terms, what

would that be? We need a decisive result in September, I think we will

get that provided we get our arguments across in the next couple

of months. What would it be in figures? I am not going to put a

number on it. People will look at it and say, OK, you have had two and a

half years of debate and Scotland has now decided. The polls may be

encouraging at the moment but I am not complacent, there is still a

long way to go. Speculating... If you don't want to answer that, that

is fair enough. Your side claims that a vote for independence is a

vote for massive uncertainty but if it is a no vote there is lots of

uncertainty too. All of the Westminster parties are promising

devolution but there is no timetable, no certainty. Yes, there

is. For the first time I can remember, all three parties are more

or less on the same page in terms of additional powers, we already have

powers in terms of policing and transport, now more powers are

planned in relation to tax and welfare. But you are all saying

different things. Between 2009 and 2012, the three parties have

slightly different proposals but they came together and there was an

agreed series of reforms in relation to tax which are now on the statute

book. If you go back to the devolutionary settlement in 1998,

people unified around a single proposition so there is history here

and these three parties have delivered and they will deliver in

the event of people saying we will stay part of the UK. If Scotland

vote no to independence, when will Scotland get these extra powers? I

would imagine that in the general election all three parties will have

something in their manifesto and you would expect to see legislation in

the session of Parliament that follows that. Imagining is not

certainty. Because the three parties have said this is what they will do,

and it is important having said that they stick to it. If you look in the

past when the Nationalists said the same thing, when they cast doubt

over what would happen in 2012, we delivered. The only party that

walked out of both of these discussions were the Nationalists

because they are not interested in more powers, they want a complete

break. You cannot say that if Edinburgh gets more devolution that

wouldn't mean fewer Scottish MPs in Westminster, can you? Nobody has any

plans to reduce the number of MPs. If you step back from this moment,

what people have been asked to do in September is to vote on the future

of their country, Scotland, and whether we should be part of the UK.

When I say part of the UK, full members of the UK with

representation in the House of Commons and the institutions that

affect our lives. This is a critically important vote. We want

to see more decentralisation of power to Scotland, and to local

authorities within Scotland, but we don't want a complete break with the

uncertainties, the risks and the downright disadvantages that would

throw Scotland's away if we were to make that break. The economic

arguments are dominating people's thinking, the polls show, that is

what is dominating at the moment. You cannot guarantee continued

membership of the European Union given all the talk now about an

in-out UK referendum. Firstly I don't think anyone has ever argued

Scotland wouldn't get back in. The big question is the terms and

conditions we would have to meet and we are applying to get into

something that is established, it wouldn't be a negotiation. What we

have said is there is no way Europe would let Scotland keep the rebate

which Scotland has, there would be big questions over whether we have

to join the euro, and other terms and conditions. The European Union

does not act with any great speed, on average it takes eight and a half

years to get into Europe. I don't want that uncertainty or the

disadvantages that would come Scotland's away that come with

losing clout in the European Union. The second point you asked me about

is in relation to the UK's membership of the European Union,

and if you look at polls, the majority of people still want to

stay in the UK. Frankly, a lot of people on my side didn't make the

argument against independence for a long time, we have been doing that

over the last two and a half years and we are making progress and that

is why I can say I think we will win provided we continue to get our

arguments across. Similarly with the European Union, the case needs to be

made because it is a powerful case. Isn't it true that the Nationalists

win either way? They win if it is a yes vote, and they win if it is a no

vote. They wanted devolution max so they win either way. There is a

world of difference between devolution and further devolution

where you remain part of the UK. There is a world of difference

between that and making a break, where Scotland becomes a foreign

country to the rest of the UK. You lose that security and those

opportunities. You lose the same currency, the opportunity with

pensions and so on. They are entitled to argue this case with

passion, they want a break, but the two things are worlds apart. Gordon

Brown said that the no campaign was too negative, have you adjusted to

take that criticism into account? Ever since I launched this campaign

over two years ago I said we would make a strong powerful case for

remaining part of the UK. Look at our research, where we have had

warnings from people to say that if we do well with research in Scotland

we get more than our population share of the grand and we gain from

that. There is a positive case but equally nobody will stop me from

saying to the Nationalists, look at the assertions you make which are

collapsing like skittles at the moment. Their assertions don't stand

up. They assert that somehow milk and honey will be flowing. It is

perfectly healthy within a referendum campaign to say that what

you are saying simply isn't true. You have been negative, we all know

about the so-called Cyber Nats book you compared Alex Salmond to the

leader of North Korea. On! The context was that Alex Salmond was

being asked why it was that UKIP had additional seat and he appeared to

blame television being been doing from another country, from BBC South

of the border. If you cannot have humour in a debate, heaven help us.

I think it is important in this debate that people from outside

politics should be allowed to have their say whatever side they are on

because that will make for a far better, healthier debate. Nobody

should be put in a state of fear and alarm by worrying about what will

happen if they stand up. Despite the nastiness, more and more people are

making a stand. We have run out of time. Thank you.

I will be talking to the SNP's hippity leader, Nicola Sturgeon,

next week on Sunday Politics. Scotland: For Richer or Poorer will

be on BBC Two at 9pm tomorrow. Disastrous results in the European

elections, it is fair to say the Lib Dems are down in the doldrums. In a

moment I will be speaking to Nick Clegg, but first Emily has been

asking what Lib Dems would say to the Prime -- Deputy Prime Minister

on Call Clegg. Our phone in this week is the challenges facing the

Liberal Democrats. They are rock bottom in the polls and have dire

results in the local and European elections so what can the party do

to turn things around? Get in touch, we are going straight to line

one and Gareth. How much is a problem of that loss of local

support? It is a massive problem because those are the building

blocks of our success. The councillors who gets the case work

done are also the people who go out and deliver the leaflets and knock

on doors. Interesting, and it is not just local support the party has

lost, is it? In the next general election there are some big-name

Liberal Democrat MPs standing down like Malcolm Bruce and Ming

Campbell, how much of a problem will that be? That is a real challenge

and we have some of our brightest and best reaching an age of maturity

at the same moment so that is quite an additional test in what will be a

difficult election anyway. So how does the party need to position

itself to win back support? Let's go to Chris online free, has the party

got its strategy right? There is always a danger of appearing to be a

party that merely dilutes Labour or dilutes the Conservatives. We have a

of is serious, positive messages and we need to get those across in the

next election because if we don't people will vote for the Tories.

Nick, what do you think of the party's message at the moment? I

have had a look at early draft of our manifesto and there is some good

stuff in there but the authors are probably too interested in what may

think we have achieved in the last five years and not really focusing

on what the voters will want to be hearing about the next five years.

Perhaps they should get out more and test some of these messages on the

doorstep. So you want to see the top ranks of the party on the doorstep.

Gareth online one also wants to make a point about the manifesto. There

is clearly a problem somewhere near the top and there are some people

who seem to be obsessed with power for power's sake, and happy with a

timid offer but the Liberal Democrats want to change things. We

are running out of time so let's try to squeeze one more call in. What

are your thoughts on the long-term future of the party? I think serious

long-term danger is that the party could be relegated to the fringes of

the UK and no longer being a national party. We have gone back

decades if that happens because for many years we have been represented

in every part of the country at some level and we have got to rescue

ourselves from that. Some interesting views but we are going

to have to wait until the general election next year to find out how

well the Lib Dems face up to these challenges. Thanks for listening, we

are going to finish with an old classic now.

# I'm sorry, I'm sorry... #. Nick Clegg, welcome to the

programme. I want to come onto your situation in a minute but as you

will have seen in the papers, there is mounting concern over and

historic Westminster paedophile ring, and files relating to it

mysteriously disappearing. Why are you against a full public enquiry

into this? I wouldn't rule anything out. I think we should do anything

it takes to uncover this and achieve justice.

delivered, even all these many years later. How do you do it? There is an

inquiry in the Home Office about what's happened to these documents,

serious questions need to be asked about what happened in the Home

Office and those questions need to be answered. There are inquiries in

the BBC, in the NHS and most importantly of all the police are

looking into the places where this abuse was alleged to have taken

place. All I would say is, let's make sure that justice is delivered,

truth is uncovered and I think that the way to do that, as we have seen,

is by allowing the police to get on with their work. You say that, but

there are only seven police involved in this inquiry. There are 195

involved in the hacking investigations. We can both agree

that child abuse is more important and serious than hacking. The Home

Office, there are reports that Home Office officials may have been

mentioned in the dossier, people don't trust people to investigate

themselves, Mr Clegg? No, I accept that we need to make sure that - and

the police need to make sure that the police investigations are

thorough, well resourced. I can't think of anything more horrendous, I

can't, than powerful people organising themselves and worse

still, this is what is alleged, covering up for each other to abuse

the most vulnerable people in society's care - children. But at

the end of the day, the only way you can get people in the dock, the only

way you can get people charged, is by allowing the prosecuting

authorities and the police to do their job. I have an open mind about

what other inquiries take place. A number of other inquiries are taking

place. I assume any additional inquiries wouldn't be able to second

guess or look into the matters which the police are looking into already.

All I would say is that people who have information, who want to

provide information which they think is relevant to this, please get in

touch with the police. Alright. Let's come on to our own inquiry

into the state of the Lib Dems. You have attempted to distance yourself

and the party from the Tories, but still stay in Government - it is

called aggressive differentiation. Why isn't it working? It's not

called aggressive differentiation. It is called "coalition". It is two

parties who retain different identities, different values, have

different aspirations for the future. But during this Parliament

have come together because we were facing a unique national emergency

back in 2010, the economy was teetering on the edge of a

precipice. I'm immensely proud, notwithstanding our political

challenges, which are real, I'm immensely proud that the Liberal

Democrats, we stepped up to the plate, held our nerve and without

the Liberal Democrats, there wouldn't now be that economic

recovery which is helping many people across the country. Why

aren't you getting any credit for it? Well, we won't get credit if we

spend all our time staring at our navals. If it wasn't for the Liberal

Democrats, there wouldn't be more jobs now available to people. They

don't believe you, they are giving the Tories the credit for the

recovery? Well, you might assert that, we will assert and I will

shout it from the rooftops that if we had not created the stability by

forming this Coalition Government and then hard-wired into the

Government's plans, not only the gory job of fixing the public

finances, but doing so much more fairly than would have been the

case, if the Conservatives had been in Government on their own, they

wouldn't have delivered these tax cuts. They wouldn't have delivered

the triple lock guarantee for pensions or the pupil premium. OK.

Why are you 8% in the polls? Well, because I think where we get our

message across - and I am here in my own constituency - this is a

constituency where I am a campaigning MP - we can dispel a lot

of the information and say we have done a decent thing by going into

Government and we have delivered big changes, big reforms which you can

touch and see in your school, in your pensions, in your taxes and

then people do support us and, in our areas of strength, we were

winning against both the Conservative and Labour parties. It

is a big effort. Of course, there are lots of people from both left

and right who want to shout us down and want to vilify our role in

Government. What we also need to do - and Nick Harvey was quite right -

having been proud of our record of delivery, we also need to set out in

our manifesto as we are and as we will our promise of more, of more

support in schools. So why is it then... Why is it then that a Lib

Dem MP in our own film says you are in danger of no longer becoming a

National Party. That could be the Clegg legacy, you cease to be a

National Party? I'm a practical man. I believe passionately in what we

have done in politics. I am so proud of my party. I don't spend that much

time speculating that the end might be nigh. There is no point in doing

that. Let's get out there, which is what I do in my own constituency, in

challenges circumstances and say we are proud of what we have done, we

have done a good thing for the country, we have delivered more

Liberal Democrat policies than the party has ever dreamed delivering

before. We have a programme of change, of reform, of liberal

reform, which is very exciting. Just over the last few weeks, I have been

setting out our plans to provide more help to carers, to make sure

teachers in every classroom are properly qualified, that all kids in

school are being taught a proper core curriculum. That parts company

from the ideological rigidities with which the Conservatives deal with

education policy. Those are thing which speak to many of the values

that people who support us... Alright. When Mike Storey gets out

and about, he told this programme two weeks' ago that he finds that

you "are toxic on the doorstep". Look, as everybody knows, being the

leader of a party, which for the first time in its history goes into

Government, which is already a controversial thing to do because

you are governing with our enemies, the Conservatives, and on top of

that, doing all the difficult and unpopular things to fix the broken

economy which was left to us by Labour, of course as leader of that

party I get a lot of incoming fire from right and left. The right say

that I'm stopping the Conservatives doing what they want. There is a

good reason for that. They didn't win the election. The left say that

somehow we have lost our soul when we haven't. That happens day in, day

out. Of course that will have some effect. My answer to that is not to

buckle to those criticisms, those misplaced Chris -- criticisms from

left and right, but to stand up proudly. Is it your intention to

fight the next election against an in-out referendum on Europe? Yes.

Unless there is major treaty change? Our position hasn't waivered, it

won't waiver, we are not going to flip-flop on the issue of the

referendum like the Conservatives did. We want an in-out referendum.

With ve legislated for the trigger when that will happen, when in u

powers are transferred to the European Union. That is what we have

said for years. We legislated for that... So no change? No change.

Alright. We are expecting a reshuffle shortly. Will you keep

Vince Cable as Business Secretary to the election? I'm immensely proud of

what Vince has done. Yes, I intend to make sure that Vince continues to

serve in the Government in his present capacity Look what he has

done on apprenticeships, he's done more than many people for many years

to make sure we build-up manufacturing, the north here, not

just the south. I'm proud of what he's done. We have talked about some

heavy things. We know you have got into kickboxing. Is there any danger

of you becoming a mammal - you know what I mean - a middle-aged man in

Lycra! Will the Tour de France influence you? Absolutely no risk of

that whatsoever having seen the Tour de France start yesterday near

Leeds. I have the yellow Yorkshire sign on my pullover. I will see them

later whisk through my constituency. I will not try to emulate them. I'm

sure that is to the relief of a grateful nation. Thank you.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in 20 minutes,

the Week Hello and on the

Sunday Politics Wales: After hundreds

of years fretting about its demise, is it time to cheer up about

the future of the Welsh language? We'll discuss Labour's trouble

with all-women shortlists. Securing the financial future

of the NHS. If you're worried about

the future of the Welsh language you won't find much to cheer you up

in the last census results. Governments have done their bit to

foster the language but according to But the Plaid Cymru AM Lord

Elis-Thomas says the figures are We'll discuss his call for

a more positive campaign to protect First let's hear how he sees

things from Porthmadog. My concern has always been that

the census data are next to meaningless in terms of describing

what is happening to language. All the census tells us is how

many people have left a particular It doesn't explain to us anything

about the reasons for these changes. Usually, the reasons are

nothing to do with language. The people haven't given up speaking

Welsh, it is the people who spoke Welsh are no longer registered on

the census because they have moved. We shouldn't be thinking in terms

of short-term fixes. We should be thinking in terms

of defining the status of Welsh and English

as official languages in Wales. I did five or six years of night

classes in Pwllheli and Porthmadog. I've got an O-level in Welsh

and almost got to A-level standard. My children learn Welsh at school

in Cricieth where we live. I encounter in Porthmadog a lot

of Welsh speaking customers coming People who have been campaigning for

years have been used to campaigning against Westminster government and

now they think it is appropriate to campaign in a similar way against

the elected government in Wales. If there are people in Wales who

still feel not enough is being done to promote the choice of languages,

to create opportunities for bilingual education and so on,

it is for them to produce creative solutions and propose them to

government and indeed to all of us who are represented

and we will respond to them. I think they are

because it is a missed opportunity. The key thing always, in my view,

is to seize every opportunity to persuade people who live in Wales,

if they don't speak Welsh themselves, to support opportunities

for others to do so or for them to be able to participate

in bilingual situations. She didn't speak any English

until she was 13. There always has been doom

and gloom. If you go back to

the mediaeval period, when 95 percent of the population spoke

Welsh it was all doom and gloom. There is an attitude

in mind that some people have that somehow a smaller language living

next to a bigger language is always I think that is a load

of nonsense in the 21st century. Everyone, or most people in the

world, speak more than one language. It is quite, not just feasible,

it is quite It is some sort

of religion to some people, I fear. They don't believe

in the conventional way of faith communities and

so they have got this passion Most people don't think

of language like that. It is something they want to use,

they can be part of, they can be proud of and they can be especially

proud, as often happens, I see it happen regularly in this part of

the world, people who move in from outside Wales, the children

go to the school system. Within a year or

so they become fluent and they start That is a sort

of Wales I want to see. And joining me

in the studio is Dafydd Elis-Thomas, along with another AM, Labour's

Keith Davies and Robin Farrar, chair of Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg,

the Welsh language Society. The census shows fewer people

speaking Welsh. Fewer places where Welsh is the majority language. You

seem quite sanguine about it. The census isn't intended to examine or

to produce evidence about language use. The way to plan language is by

using data which is relevant. I can't wait to see the Welsh language

which the government is undertaking, we will have that in 2016. That'll

give us the basis to meet demand and to respond to how it describes

language use in personal life, social life and in the workplace.

The people who think the Welsh language is facing a crisis, you are

not one of them. No, I never was. I was involved in language planning

and in those days what I was trying to do was promote status and to

recognise Welsh as an official language. That is important. It is

even more important to market it effectively. There are organisations

who are doing marvellous work in promoting language to business and

communication skills, and these are the issues I want to be interested

in. Too much pessimism. I you guilty of too much pessimism? As language

campaigners, we're very positive. If you look at how we responded to when

the census results came outcome I do believe they are meaningful, they

are not everything that there a warning in those census figures, the

way we responded we started a public campaign. I want to live in Welsh.

That is a positive message. We published our manifesto which was

precisely a set of positive recommendations, the kind of

policies we feel are necessary in order to resolve that crisis, to see

people being able to live in Welsh. Since then, as well, we have

published our own alternative planning Bill, we have come up with

policy documents in fields like education just completely essential.

If we are to deal with the crisis language is facing, we have to

promote it and deal with policies which affect migration patterns.

Shortly after the senses you said the future of Welsh depends on Welsh

language communities and they will be our main priority. What about

places like Cardiff and Monmouthshire where the census

showed that are more Welsh speakers. Since you be trying to inspire

people in those places to speak Welsh rather than putting all the

emphasis on areas where people are leaving? Both are crucially

important. People in every part of Wales wanted to see the language

live through the medium of files. The communities with the high

percentage of speakers are essential. In some areas,

overdevelopment is a particular problem. That is one of the aspects

of our alternative planning Bill. If people are trying to access services

through the medium of files, they have great difficulty in doing so.

Let's ask Keith Davies about that. People are having difficulties

accessing services, do you think that is true? The Welsh Government

says this is a massive challenge. I think it is meeting the challenge.

Welsh language Commissioner has worked with several companies where

people have gone in and has spoken Welsh and they have been refused

service. Because of what the government are doing and supporting

the Welsh language Commissioner, those things are changing. Companies

in Wales are seeing it is important for them, if they want their

business to thrive, they support the Welsh language. In his recent

statement on Welsh language policy, the First Minister announced

funding. Is that really enough? Is this a measure of how seriously the

government takes it? That is in the current financial year and it

raises. That is also a fund for small to medium-sized enterprises

where they can support the Welsh language and they can be funded for

it. It is a start. We will be hearing about the financial

sustainability of financial survival of the NHS. In a time of austerity,

as the government have to make its priorities and Welsh isn't one. Two

important things in the strategy are Welsh in the economy and Welsh in

the community. That is what this money is for. It is this was the

communities and get Welsh into businesses. You talk about this rosy

scenario of people moving into your constituency and speaking Welsh and

then there are children now willing -- winning prizes. The children have

to learn Welsh in school. Is that the way forward? That is part of the

national curriculum. It was introduced by the Conservative

government under Margaret Thatcher. The government is now looking again

at the effect of this, language teaching, especially in schools wish

don't introduce Welsh. What is the one thing the government can do? I

think the most important thing is to promote the language in business. At

the workplace and between businesses. The work that is taking

place now in terms of marketing, especially Welsh food bilingually,

is brilliant. We have a product and a brand which is not Welsh or

English but both. From looking at what the Welsh Language Society says

and does, it seems the one thing you have prioritised is planning. Your

members will 24-hour fast this week because you see tougher measures on

planning. You have said the right to decline planning permission on the

basis of language that exist. Or to allow. What does that mean? What do

you mean by the right to decline on the basis of language? Is clear to

me that planning decisions have an impact on the language. The supply

of housing in different parts of Wales has an impact on where people

move. Both positive and negative. The examples of people moving out of

Wales because they can't get a house. I don't understand was little

system you envisage that will help the Welsh language as you say you

can't build a house as you speak Welsh. A detailed alternative

planning Bill but we published is based on the principle that the

amount of housing allowed to be built should be based on the local

need. If the community needs that housing and it isn't enough in terms

of existing housing stock, that is the number they should be built. It

is completely at odds to how be planning system works at the moment

where there are targets set centrally. Those figures...

Solutions be building lots of houses and Welsh speaking areas? Not if

they are not needed. As I say, the system would have other benefits as

well. It would be better for the environment to base these decisions

on a local need. In the language policy the government talks about

successfully changing people's behaviour on smoking and plastic

bags, there is a law under punishment. Does the government need

to introduce stronger element of compulsion to make people speak

Welsh and businesses to use Welsh? Certainly, encouragement and

support. That is the most important thing. Into the local economy. If we

want people to stay in the Welsh speaking parts we need jobs for

them. It is supporting people, that is what it is about.

If the Welsh NHS is going to provide better care and survive financially

then a huge culture change is needed, according to a health expert

Professor Sir Mansel Aylward is leading the Bevan Commission

which is looking at what's called "prudent healthcare".

It's a change being driven by the Health Minister Mark Drakeford who

has said that around a fifth of the work of the NHS doesn't actually

Bethan Lewis went to meet Professor Aylward to find out more.

This is the Keir Hardie University Health Park in Merthyr Tydfil.

A state of the art centre which brings together a range

of health and social care facilities including GP services,

a public health team providing dietary advice and dental services.

We run the mobile dental unit from here.

We go out and visit homes, residential homes.

A vision of how health care can be delivered in the future.

And one in which local boy Professor Sir Mansel Aylward had a key role.

His mission now is to push forward a major shift in the NHS's culture

and to adopt what has been labelled a prudent approach.

It is very simple really although people have tried to think

Basically, it is a way to conceive, manage and deliver health care

A way whereby someone delivers the most appropriate treatment,

intervention or management plan, to the patient which is based

Which is something we know will work and will achieve tangible outcomes.

The first point is, shouldn't this be happening anyway?

People would be quite astounded that most health care, that all health

I've spent much of my life trying to sell this and saying we

shouldn't be doing this because there is no evidence it works.

And not just me, many, many others who are far more important

What we wanted to do at prudent health care is to get

Get something that people will be able to understand, that they want

and, yes, that will show them that what they thought was the way

in which medicine and health care was practised should be that way.

What impact will it mean for the patient?

How will their experience be different?

Could you give me an example of that.

If they go to see their GP what would be different?

There must be a conversation between the doctor or the health

In that conversation they both must agree on a way forward,

whether it is in operation, a treatment plan or whatever.

Many people just say, I will do what you tell me, doctor, or whatever.

And if the citizen understands fully what's before them in a treatment

plan and what is likely to be the outcome, and we now say the outcome

must be a benefit, that will make a difference in the way patients and

citizens relate to the health care professions

but not just relate to them, perhaps will understand more the

problems there are in deciding the effect of a particular treatment.

There is some scepticism in some parts about this idea.

People are saying it is another way of rationing health care.

As far as where we are now, money isn't an issue.

He wants to see how prudent health care works.

When we talk about rationing, yes, we are rationing now.

But what we do now is we ration on time.

People have to wait to get their operation, the intervention to see

their GP, perhaps they don't see them with the system as it is now.

What we have got to say is, yes, there is rationing, but let's

Let's ration on the basis of clinical need.

Let's ration, if we call it that, in regard to delivering the best

service to the patient at the right time which is evidence-based.

If that is called rationing, is it rationing to say to someone,

actually, we want to deliver for you the best treatment there is based on

If that is rationing, well, I welcome it.

Only 13 women have ever represented Wales in the House of Commons.

The Labour Party's solution has been to select candidates

Trouble is, it can annoy party members.

Most recently in the Cynon Valley where they've gone on strike.

Cathy Owens, Labour member and former Welsh Government special

This situation in the can and family is inconvenient for the Labour

Party. I think the Labour Party and its members had democratically

chosen to introduce this positive way of getting more women selected.

As a party, it was done twice as better than the nearest party with

women representation. People weren't happy about it when they had

training at the National Assembly. Those that represent the members --

all the members in the can Valley? . We had to make some progress. No one

has come up with a better idea. Is there a problem with a lack of

transparency? People who are unhappy, they say they are unhappy

that some seats have all women short lists and some don't. However these

decisions made? Let's not suggest that this is an outlier. Half of all

the target seats have all women short lists. It is only -- the only

way of doing it. 51 of them were all on short lists. At least half of all

the seats are going to be all women short lists because we have such a

ladder to climb. We need to get more women in parliament. Only 31% of

Labour MPs are women but that is better than the Tories at about 16%

and the Liberal Democrats at 12%. Plaid Cymru will hopefully have one

woman in Parliament. They could be fewer Welsh MPs, women MPs. That is

why Cynon Valley is an important sea to think about. If the seats stay

the same, and we didn't have all women short lists, we would have

even fewer women MPs in Wales. That is unacceptable. This party have

more work to do to carry members with it? The members are with its

because the members have voted for it. I think if we did a poll of

members in the Labour Party it showed that is huge support. If we

did a poll of members Cynon Valley, there is huge support for equality

and fairness. A yes or no question. Do you see a similar situation

elsewhere? We will in 50% of the seats...

progress in London was being made before that started. I wish we had

longer for that. It is all over to you.

What will Thursday's mass public sector strike achieve?

Has David Cameron's anti-Juncker attacks clawed back support

And is Alan Johnson really thinking about challenging Ed Miliband

We will start with the strikes, Matt Hancock was hardline in the

head-to-head that he did with the TUC. I guess that the Tory internal

polling and focus groups must be telling them that there are votes in

taking a tough line? There is that and there is the fact that they are

now much more confident on any economic policy two or three years

ago. They shied away from it because the economy was shrinking, there was

still a danger that public sector job losses would lead to higher

unemployment overall. Now, the economy is growing, they have a good

story to sell about employment so they are much more bolshy and brazen

than they were two or three years ago. They know that it always causes

problems for Labour. Labour is naturally sympathetic to the public

sector workers, pay being squeezed, they are striking to make an issue

of it. And yet they can't quite come out and give the unions 100% Labour

support? Exactly. You saw Tristram Hunt on the Marr Show this morning

squirming to support the idea of strikes, but not this particular

strike. It was always the question that gets asked to Labour - who

funds you? That is a real problem. The bit that gets me is they trail

this ef are I time there is a -- every time there is a strike, this

idea of cutting it to ballots and local election turnout was a third.

Boris Johnson was elected Mayor of London with 38% turnout. We need to

talk about-turnout across our democracy. That is an easy rebuttal

for Labour to make. Matt Hancock was hardline about changing the strike

law. When you asked him the question, if you are not going to

stabilise the public finances till 2018, does this mean the pay freeze

or no real term pay increase in the public sector will increase till

2018, h e was inner vous on that one. -- he was nervous on that one.

This strike is different to those strikes that took place in 2010. At

that time, the TUC and the Labour Leadership thought there was going

to be a great movement out there, not a kind of 1926 movement, but a

great movement out there. This time round, I think the climate is

different. Ed Miliband talking about wage increases being outstripped by

inflation and people not seeing the recovery coming through into their

pay packets. Slightly more tricky territory for the Tories. If The

Labour machine cannot make something out of Matt Hancock telling this

programme there will be no increase in pay for workers in the public

sector till 2018, they have a problem? They do have a problem.

They have to say always that they would not just turn the money taps

on. That is the dance that you are locked in all the time. Can we all

agree that Alan Johnson is not going to stand against Ed Miliband this

side of the election? Some politicians are cynical enough. I

don't think Alan Johnson is one. Do we agree? There is nothing in it for

Labour and certainly not for Alan Johnson. No way. It is the last

thing he would want to do. There are some desperate members going around

trying to find a stalking horse. Alan Johnson will not be their man.

He has more important things to do on a Thursday night on BBC One!

Isn't it something about the febrile state of the Labour Party that

Labour, some Labour backbenchers or in the Shadow Cabinet, can float the

idea of this nonsense? If there was a time to do it, maybe it was in the

middle of the Parliament. With ten months left, you are stuck with the

leader you chose in 2010. I remember them failing to understand this in

January of 2010 when there was that last push against Gordon Brown. Five

months before an election, they were trying to do something. The deputy

Leader of the Labour Party had something to do with it. There is

deep unease about Ed Miliband. There are problems but Alan Johnson is not

the man. I think there is no chance of it!

If the most recent polls are to be believed, David Cameron appears to

have enjoyed a 'Juncker bounce' - clawing back some support from UKIP

after he very publicly opposed the appointment of Jean-Claude Juncker

to the post of EU Commission president. Last week Nigel Farage

took his newly enlarged UKIP contingent to Strasbourg

for the first session of the new European Parliament.

These two gentlemen have nothing to say today. It was the usual dull,

looking back to a model invented 50 years ago and we are the ones that

want democracy, we are the ones that want nation state, we are the ones

that want a global future for our countries, not to be trapped inside

this museum. Thank you. I can see we will be covering more of the

European Parliament at last! It's rumoured he's likely to stand

in the next general election in the Kent constituency of Thanet South,

currently held by the Conservatives. Last week the Conservatives selected

their candidate for the seat - Craig McKinlay -

a former deputy leader of UKIP. Did you get the short straw, you

have got a seat that Nigel Farage is probably going to fight? Not in the

slightest. It is a seat that I know well. It is a seat that there's

obvious euro scepticism there and my qualities are right for that seat.

UKIP got some very good... What are your qualities? Deep-seated

conservatism, I was a founder of UKIP, I wrote the script back in

1992. My heart is Conservative values. They are best put out to the

public by me in South Thanet. It would be ridiculous if Nigel chose

that seat. We need a building block of people like myself to form a

Government if we are going to have that referendum that is long

overdue. I don't think he's got the luxury of losing somebody who is

very similar in views to him. He would be best look looking

elsewhere. You wouldn't like him to stand in your seat, would you? It

would seem to make very little sense. People would say what is UKIP

all about if it's fighting people who have got a similar view to them?

We do need to build a majority Government for the Conservatives

next year because only us are offering that clear in-out

referendum. I want to be one of those building blocks that is part

of that renegotiation that we will put to public in a referendum.

Sounds to me like if the choice is between you and Nigel Farage next

May in Thanet South, it is Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee? Not at all. The

danger to this country is another Labour Government. That is one of

the main reasons that I left UKIP in 2005 because that last five years of

the Labour Government was the most dangerous to the fundamentals of

Britain that we have ever seen. I'm happy with the Conservatives. I have

full Conservative values. I am a Euro-sceptic. Thank you for joining

us. The Westminster bubble yet again, which has a herd mentality, a

bubble with a herd mentality, it got it wrong yet again. Mr Cameron's

isolated, he is useless at diplomacy, all of which may be true,

but the British people liked it and his backbenchers liked it? True.

Although some of us would say it is possible... You are speaking for the

bubble? I'm speaking for my segment of the bubble. Some of us argued

that he got it wrong diplomatically and it would be wrong politically.

It will be the passage of time. We saw UKIP decline between the 2004

European elections and the 2005 General. You would expect something

similar to happen this time round. The question is how far low do they

fall? They are still registering 12-15% in the opinion polls. They

are. When Mr Cameron wielded his veto which again the Westminster

bubble said it's terrible, it is embarrassing, he overtook Labour in

the polls for a while doing that. He's had a Juncker bounce. If you

were a strategist, would you not conclude the more Euro-sceptic I am,

the better it is for me in the polls? In the short-term, yes. This

is the short-term thinking we are supposed to despise. The electricion

is very clever for a different -- the selection is very clever for a

different reason. It is this anti-London feeling in Thanet South.

He is a councillor, he grew up in the constituency. He is a chartered

accountant. He is somebody who can be seen to be a champion of local

people. If they had parachuted in a special adviser, they would be in

real trouble. He wants to get out... This is the third representative of

the bubble? He wants to get out of the European Union which David

Cameron doesn't want to do. It was interesting for that statement to

MPs on Monday, there were mild Euro-sceptics who said, "I can't

take this." The Speaker said can the baying mob, the Conservative MPs,

quieten down, please. Ben Bradshaw, the former Minister made it, he

said, "I'm reminded when the leader of the Labour Party before Harold

Wilson made that famous Euro-sceptic speech and Mrs Gaitskell said

darling, the wrong people are cheering." That is the challenge.

Thank you, bubbles! The Daily Politics is back

at its usual Noon time every day And I'll be back here on BBC One

next Sunday at 11pm for the last Sunday Politics of the summer - I'll

be talking to Scotland's Deputy Remember, if it's Sunday,

it's the Sunday Politics.