14/09/2014 Sunday Politics Wales

Welcome to the Sunday Politics, coming to you live from Edinburgh.

Terrorists who use the name Islamic State have carried out

their threat to murder the British aid worker, David Haines.

They released a video late last night, showing a masked man

beheading Mr Haines, who was taken captive in Syria 18 months ago.

The jihadist group have already beheaded two American journalists.

Now it's threatening the life of a second British hostage.

David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil.

As we speak he's chairing a meeting of the Cabinet's COBRA

President Obama said the US stood shoulder to shoulder

Alex Salmond says Scotland "stands on the cusp of history" as

he predicts a historic and substantial victory in

As the latest polls show the two sides neck and neck,

I'll ask Yes campaigner and socialist Tommy Sheridan about his

And after last week's last-minute interventions from Gordon Brown,

David Cameron, Ed Miliband and big business, I'll ask

Later, Welsh views on Scottish it's enough to win over waverers.

Later, Welsh views on Scottish independence. Leanne Wood

Later, Welsh views on Scottish step closer back to Parliament. Is

it a lame-duck administration? Late last night, as most folk were

preparing for bed, news broke that Islamic State extremists had carried

out their threat to murder the The group released a video, similar

to the ones in which two American journalists were decapitated,

showing a masked man apparently beheading Mr Haines who was taken

captive in Syria last year. The terrorist,

who has a southern British accent, also threatened the life

of a second hostage from the UK. Mr Haines is

the third Westerner to be killed His family have paid tribute to

his humanitarian work; they say he David Cameron described the murder

as an act of pure evil, and said his heart went out to Mr Haines?

family, who had shown extraordinary Mr Cameron went on to say,

"We will do everything in our power to hunt down these murderers

and ensure they face justice, Mr Haines was born in England

and brought up in Scotland. Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond

condemned the killing on the Marr Well, it's an act of unspeakable

barbarism that we have seen. Obviously our condolences go to the

family members of David Haynes who have borne this with such fortitude

in recent months -- David Alex Salmond was also asked

whether he supported military action Haines there is no reason to believe

whatsoever that China or Russia or any country will see their will to

deal with this barbarism. There is a will for effective, international,

legal action but it must come in that fashion, and I would urge that

to be a consideration to develop a collective response to what is a

threat to humanity. Our security correspondent

Gordon Corera joins me now Gordon, as we speak, the Cobra

emergency meeting is meeting yet again. It meets a lot these days. I

would suggest that the options facing this committee and Mr Cameron

are pretty limited. That's right. I think they are extremely limited.

They have been all along in these hostage situations. We know, for

instance, that British government policy is not to pay ransom is to

kidnappers. Other Europeans states are thought to have done so to get

hostages released, and also not to make substantive policy concessions

to the groups, so while there might be contact, there won't be a lot of

options left. We know the US in the past has looked at rescue missions

and in July on operation to free the hostages, landing at the oil

facility in Syria but finding no one there. If you look at the options,

they are not great. That is the difficult situation which Cobra will

have been discussing the last hour. Does this make it more likely,

because it might have the direction the government was going in any way,

that we join with the Americans in perhaps the regional allies in air

strikes against Islamic State, not just in Iraq, but also in Syria. We

heard from President Obama outlining his strategy against Islamic State

last week when he talked about building a coalition, about

authorising air strikes. And training troops. We are still

waiting to hear what exact role the UK will play in that. We know it

will play a role because it has been arming the fishmonger forces but the

question is, will it actually conduct military strikes in Iraq --

arming the passion are there. We have not got a clear answer from

government and that is something where they are ours to discuss what

was around the table. It's possible we might learn some more today as a

result of the Cobra meeting, but I think the government will be wanting

to not be seen to suddenly rushed to a completely different policy as a

result of one incident, however terrible it is. Whether it hardens

their reserve -- resolved to play more active role in the coalition,

that's possible, but we have to wait see to get the detail. -- wait and

see. What the whole country would like to see would be British and

American special forces going in and getting these guys. I think that

would unite the nation. But that is very difficult, isn't it? It is. As

you saw with a rescue mission a few months ago, the problem is getting

actionable intelligence on the ground at a particular moment. The

theory is that the group of kidnappers are moving the hostages

may be even every or few days, so you need intelligence and quickly

and then you need to be able to get the team onto the ground into that

time frame. That is clearly a possibility and something they will

be looking at, but it certainly challenging, particularly when you

have a group like this operating within its own state, effectively,

and knowing that other people are looking very hard for it and doing

everything they can to hide. Gordon, thank you very much.

Clegg dropped everything and headed to Scotland when a poll last Sunday

gave the YES vote its first ever lead in this prolonged referendum

If their reaction looked like panic, that's because it was.

Until last weekend, though the polls had been narrowing,

the consensus was still that NO would carry the day.

The new consensus is that it's too close to call.

If we look back at the beginning of the year, public opinion in Scotland

was fairly settled. The no campaign had a commanding lead across the

opinion polls, excluding the undecided voters. At one point, at

the end of last year, an average of 63% backed the no campaign and only

37% supported a yes vote. As we move into 2014 and up to this week, you

can see a clear trend emerging as the lead for the no campaign gets

narrower and narrower and the average of the most recent polls has

the contest hanging in the balance. There was a poll a week ago that put

the Yes campaign in the lead for the first time, 51% against 49%, but

that lead was not reflected in the other polls last week. For polls

were published last night, one by Salvation, for the macro-2 campaign

-- Better Together campaign, and there was another that gave a one

percentage point there was another that gave a one

the yes campaign back in the lead at 54% and the no campaign at

the yes campaign back in the lead at their sample size was

the yes campaign back in the lead at adults, smaller than usual. Another

suggests that the contest remains on a knife edge with 49.4% against

50.6%. When fed into the poll of polls the figures average out with

yes at 49% and polls -- no at 51%. But some people think 18% are

undecided, and it is how they vote gets -- when they get to the polling

booths that could make all the difference.

campaigner and Respect Party MP, George Galloway.

Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Big business, big oil, big banks, the

Tories, the Orange order, all against Scottish independence. You

sure you are on right side? Yes, because the interests of working

people are in staying together. This is a troubled

people are in staying together. This a very long marriage, in

people are in staying together. This good things and

people are in staying together. This achieved together. And there is no

doubt that the crockery is being thrown around the house of the

minute. But I believe that the underlying interests of working

people are on working on the relationship rather than divorce. I

have been divorced. It's a very messy, acrimonious, bitter

have been divorced. It's a very children will stop that's why I am

here. You children will stop that's why I am

people, they seem to have concluded that the social democracy they want

people, they seem to have concluded to create cannot now be done in a UK

people, they seem to have concluded context. Why should they not have a

shot of going it alone? Because the opposite

shot of going it alone? Because the will cause a race to the bottom

shot of going it alone? Because the taxation. Alex Salmond has already

announced he will cut the taxation. Alex Salmond has already

companies, corporation tax, down to 3% hello whatever it is in the rest

of these islands. And business will only be attracted to come here,

country of 5 million people on if there is low regulation, low public

expenditure, low levels of taxation for them will stop you cannot have

expenditure, low levels of taxation Scandinavian social democracy on

Texan levels of taxation. The British government, as will be, the

Texan levels of taxation. The Salmond to the bottom. If he cuts it

by three, they will cut it by four. And so on. So whether some people

cannot see it clearly yet or not, the interests of the working people

on both sides of the border would be gravely damaged by separation. Let's

take the interest of the working people. As you know, as well as

anyone, the coalition is in fermenting both a series of cuts and

reforms in welfare, and labour, Westminster Labour, has only limited

plans to reverse any of that. Surely if you want to preserve the welfare

state as it is, independence is the way to do it. For the reasons I just

explain, I don't believe that. But Ed Miliband will be along in a

minute. He will be along in May. The polls indicate... They say he is

only four or 5%, that is the average. Like the referendum, the

next general election could be nip and tuck. I don't, myself, think

that the time of David Cameron as Prime Minister is for much longer. I

think there will be a Labour government in the spring and the

Labour government in London and a stronger Scottish Parliament, super

Devo Max, that is now on the table. That is the best arrangement of

people in the country. But the people of Scotland surely cannot

base a decision on independence on your feeling that Labour might win

the next general election. It is my feeling. When the Tories were beaten

on the bedroom tax last week in the house, it was written all over the

faces of the government side not only that they were headed for

defeat, but probably a massive fishy -- Fisher. I think the race to the

bottom that I have proper size will mean that the welfare state will be

a distant memory quite soon. The cuts and the run on the Scottish

economy here in Edinburgh, the financial services industry, that

will be gravely damage. The Ministry of Defence jobs in Scotland

decimated, probably ended, more or less. It will be a time of cuts and

austerity, maybe super austerity in an independent Scotland. You

mentioned defence. What about nuclear weapons? The Tories and

Labour will keep them. You are against them. Surely the only way to

be rid of them in Scotland is by independence. But you are not rid of

them by telling them down the river. The danger would be the same --

telling them down the river. The danger would be the same. Nuclear

radiation does not respect Alex Salmond's national boundaries. They

would be committed to immediately joining NATO, which is bristling

with nuclear weapons and is what -- involved in wars across the

Atlantic. So anyone looking for a peace option will have to elect a

government in Britain as a whole that will get rid of nuclear weapons

and get out of military entanglements. We are in one again

now. I have been up the whole night, till 5am, dealing with some of the

consequences and implications of the grave international matter that you

opened the show with. David Haines and the fate of the hostage still in

their hands. There are many other hostages as well. And there are many

people dying who are neither British nor American. I have, somehow, been

drawn into this matter. And it showed me, again, that the world is

interdependent. It is absolutely riven with division and hatred, and

this is the worst possible time to be opting out of the world to set up

a small mini-state on the promises of Alex Salmond of social democracy

funded by Texan taxes. Let's, for the sake of the next question,

assume that everything you have told us is true. Why is your side

squandering a 20 point lead? I will have a great deal to say

about that, whatever the result. This is very much a Scottish Labour

project, is that not a condemnation of Scottish Labour? It is

potentially on its deathbed. The country breaking up, the principal

responsibility will be on them. And the pitiful, absolutely pitiful job

that has been made of defending a 300-year-old relationship in this

island by the Scottish Labour leadership is really terrible for me

to behold, even though I'm no longer one of them. I don't know how they

are going to get out of this deathbed. Do you agree that if this

referendum is lost by your side, it will be because traditional

working-class Labour voters, particularly in the west of

Scotland, have abundant Labour and decided to vote for independence?

Without a doubt, the number of Labour voters intending to vote yes

is disturbingly high. Even just months ago during the European

Parliament elections, swathes of people who didn't vote SNP will be

voting yes on Thursday. That is a grave squandering of a great legacy

of Scottish Labour history, which history will decree as

unforgivable. If Labour is to get out of its deathbed in Scotland, it

will have to become Labour again. Real Labour again. I am ready to

help them with that. My goodness, they need help with it. I wonder if

it isn't just a failure of Labour in Scotland. People all over Britain

are increasingly fed up with the Westminster system, but it is only

the Scots who currently have the chance to break free from it, so why

shouldn't they? That is exactly right. They see a parliament of

expenses cheats led by Lord snooty and the Bullingdon club elite,

carrying through austerity for many but not for themselves and they are

repulsed by it. They need change, but you can go backwards and call it

change but it will be worse than the situation you have now. A lot of

Scottish people don't buy that. It is a big gamble. If I were poised to

put my family's life savings on the roulette table in Las Vegas, my wife

would not be scaremongering if she pointed out the potential

consequences if I'd lost. She would not be negative by telling me that

is my children's money I am risking. If I jumped off this roof it would

change my point of view, but it would be worse than the point of

view I have now. There is another issue here because the Scots are

being asked to gamble on the Westminster parties, which they are

already suspicious of, of delivering home rule. Alistair Darling could

not even tell me if Ed Balls had signed off on more income tax powers

for Scotland, so that is a gamble for the Scots. I feel the British

state has had such a shake out of all this that they would be beyond

idiots, they would be insane now to risk all of this flaring up again

because whatever happens, if we win on Thursday, it is going to be

narrowly. It will be a severe fissure in Scotland. A great deal of

unpleasantness that we are already aware of. That could turn but we're

still. It would be dicing with death, playing with fire, to let

Scottish people down after Thursday if we narrowly win. If you narrowly

win, and if there are moves to this home rule Mr Brown has been talking

about, England hasn't spoken yet on this. Whilst England would probably

not want to stop -- stop Scotland getting this, they would say, what

about us? It could delay the whole procedure. It is necessary, you are

right. England should have home rule, and I screamed at Scottish

Labour MPs going into the vote to introduce tuition fees in England. I

told them this was a constitutional monstrosity, as well as a crime

against young people in England. It was risking everything. We are led

by idiots. Our leaders are not James Bonds, they are Austin powers. We

need to change the leadership, not rip up a 300-year-old marriage.

Thank you. It's been one of the longest and

hardest fought political campaigns in history, with Alex Salmond firing

the starting gun on the referendum Adam's been stitching together

the key moments of the campaign. It is the other thing drawing people

to the Scottish parliament, the new great tapestry of Scotland. It is

the story of battles won and lost, Scottish moments, British moments,

famous Scots, and not so famous Scots. There is even a panel

dedicated to the rise of the SNP. Alex Salmond's majority in the

elections in 2011 made the referendum inevitable. It became

reality when he and David Cameron did a deal in Edinburgh one year

later. The Scottish Government set out its plans for independence in

this book, just a wish list to some, a sacred text to others. This White

Paper is the most detailed improvements that any people have

ever been offered in the world as a basis for becoming an independent

country. The no campaign, called Better Together, united the Tories,

Labour and the Lib Dems under the Better Together, united the Tories,

with two years of photo opportunities and a lot of

campaigning. For the no campaign, Jim Murphy went on tour but took a

break when he was egged and his events were often hijacked by yes

campaigners who were accused of being intimidating. In turn, they

accused the no campaign of using scare tactics. Things heated up when

the TV dinner -- during the TV debate. Fever pitch was reached one

week ago when one poll suggested the yes campaign was in the lead for the

first time. The three main Westminster leaders ditched PMQs to

head north. I think people can feel it is like a general election, that

you make a decision and five years later you can make another decision

if you are fed up with the Tories, give them a kick... This is totally

different. And Labour shelved not quite 100 MPs onto the train, Alex

Salmond took a helicopter instead. This is about the formation of the

NHS. A big theme of the yes campaign is that changes to the NHS in Linden

-- in England would lead to privatisation in Scotland. Alex

Salmond's plan to share the pound was trashed by big names. There were

other big question is, what would happen to military hardware like

Trident based on the Clyde? Would an independent Scotland be able to join

the EU? And how much oil was left underneath the North Sea?

This panel is about famous Scots, we have Annie Lennox, Stephen Hendry,

Sean Connery. I cannot see Gordon Brown. These are big changes we are

proposing to strengthen the Scottish parliament, but at the same time to

stay as part of the UK. A regular on the campaign, he was front and

centre when things got close, unveiling a timetable for more

devolution. People wondered whether Ed Miliband was able to reach the

parts of Scotland Labour leader should reach, and at Westminster

some Tories pondered whether David Cameron could stay as prime minister

if there was a yes vote. This tapestry is nonpartisan so it is a

good place to get away from it all but it is crystallising voters'

views. Look at what we have contributed to Great Britain,

views. Look at what we have British. This is what people from

Scotland have done, taken to the rest of the world in many cases and

I think I am going to vote yes. I am so inspired by it. It has certainly

inspired me to have a go at stitching.

inspired me to have a go at would take to do the whole thing? I

would say to put aside would take to do the whole thing? I

hours of stitching. Maybe by the time I am done, we will know more

about how the fabric of the nation might be changing.

And I've been joined by yes campaigner and convenor

of Scotland's Solidarity socialist party, Tommy Sheridan.

An economy dependent on oil, the Queen as head of state, membership

of the world 's premier nuclear alliance of capitalist nations - is

that the socialist Scotland you are fighting for? No, that is the SNP's

prospectus and they are entitled to put forward their vision, but it is

not mine or that of the majority of Scotland. We will find out in two

years. On Thursday we are not voting for a political party, we are voting

for our freedom as a country. That is why people are going to vote yes

on Thursday. A lot of people are voting for what you call freedom

because they think it will be more Scotland. You have already got free

prescriptions, no tuition fees, free care for the elderly. You might not

in future have that if public spending is overdependent on the

price of oil, over which you have no control. We don't have to worry

about one single resource, we already have 20% of the fishing

stock in Europe. We already have 25% of the wind, wave and solar power

generation. We, as an independent country, have huge resources,

natural resources but also people resources. We have five first-class

universities, food and beverages industry which is the envy of the

world. We have the ability to produce the resources on the

revenues that won't just maintain the health service and education but

it will develop health and education. I don't want to stand

still, I want to redistribute wealth. But all of the projections

of public spending for an independent Scotland show that to

keep spending at the current level you need a strong price of oil and

you are dependent on this commodity which goes up and down and sideways.

That is a gamble. I have got to laugh because I have been told the

most pessimistic is that in 40 years the oil is running out, panic

stations! If you were told by the BBC you could only guarantee

employment for the next 40 years you would be over the moon. I am talking

about in the next five. You need 50% of your revenues to come from oil to

continue spending and that is not a guarantee. Of course it is, the

minimum survival of the oil is 40 years. Please get your viewers to go

onto the Internet and look at the website called oilandgas.com. The

West Coast has 100 years of oil to be extracted. It hasn't been done

because in 1981 Michael Heseltine said we cannot extract the oil

because we have Trident going up and down there. Let's get rid of Trident

and extract the oil. You are a trot right, why have you failed to learn

his famous dictum, socialism in one country is impossible. Revolutions

and change are not just single event. What will happen here on

Thursday is a democratic revolution. The people are fed up of being

patronised and lied to by this mob in Westminster who have used and

abused us for far too long. The smaller people now have a voice.

What about socialism in one country? Mr Trotsky warned you

against that. The no campaign represents the past. The yes

campaign represents the future. That is the truth of the matter. What we

are going to do in an independent Scotland is tackle inequality and a

scourge of low pay. If we vote no on Thursday, there will be more low pay

on Friday, more poverty and food banks on Friday. I'm not going to be

lectured by these big banks, you vote less -- yes and we will leave

the country! The food banks will be the ones closing. If you got your

way, for the type of Scotland you would like to see, state control of

business, nationalisation of the Manx, the roads to Carlisle will be

clogged with people Yes, hoping to come into Scotland,

because in their hearts, the Scottish people know that England

want to see the people having the bottle. The working class people in

Liverpool, Newcastle, outside of London, they are saying good on the

jocks that are taking on big business. When we are independent

and investing in social housing, the people of England will say, we can

do that as well, and they will rediscover the radical tradition. In

wanting to build socialism in one country, it really means you are

fighting for the few, rather than the many. You are bailing out of the

socialist Battle for Britain. You think it will be easier to make it

work. Think globally, act locally and we will build socialism in

Scotland but I wanted across the world. I won my brothers and sisters

in England and Wales to be encouraged by what we do so they can

reject the Westminster consensus as well -- I want. We had the three

Stooges coming up to London, three millionaires united on one thing,

austerity. Doesn't matter whether Ed Miliband wins the next election, he

said he would stick to the story spending cuts. Why vote for Ed

Miliband? You wouldn't trust him to run a bath, not a country. Let's see

if this is realistic, this great socialist vision. At the last

Scottish election, the Socialist party got 8000 votes. The

Conservatives got 30 times more votes. Where is the appetite in

Scotland for your Marxist ideology question we might not win it. But do

you know what, see in two years time. See when we have the Scottish

general election. You won't -- you are saying you might win and you

went to the Holyrood election and got 8000 Pope -- votes. The SNP won

a democratic election and then won the 2011 election and you know why

they won? Because they picked up the clothes that the Labour Party has

thrown away. They picked up the close of social democracy and

protecting the health service was -- service. There are people in the SNP

who believe in public ownership and people in the SNP who believe in the

NHS should be written into a constitution as never for sale

people in the the SNP that think the Royal mail should return to public

ownership. That is there in black and white. Do you agree with George

Galloway that this is potentially a crisis for Scottish Labour? Scottish

Labour is finished. They are absolutely finished. George is right

in that. Scottish Labour is finished. The irony of ironies is,

Labour in Scotland has more chance of recovery in an independent

Scotland that they have in a no vote. Labour in Scotland in an

independent country will have to rediscover the traditions of Keir

Hardie, the ideas of Jimmy Maxon, because right now, they are to the

right of the SNP as a political party. I understand the socialist

vision, but it is where the appetite is. And you look at the independence

people in Scotland. One of your colleagues, Brian Souter, a man who

fought against the appeal -- repeal of homosexual rights in Scotland.

Another of your allies would seem to be Rupert Murdoch, the man who

engineered your downfall. You say he engineered your downfall, but I'm

still here and his newspaper has closed. Whether it Rupert Murdoch,

Brian Souter, or any other millionaire supporting independence,

I couldn't care less. This boat on Thursday is not about millionaires,

it is about the millions. -- this vote. We will not be abused any

young -- longer. Would you rather not have their support? I couldn't

care about the support. You know who is supporting the union. It is the

unions of the big businesses, the BNP, UKIP, they are the ones who

support it. You are giving me a stray that has wandered into the

campaign and are you seriously going to argue with me that the

establishment isn't united to try and save the union? That is what

they are trying to be. The BBC, you have been a disgrace in your

coverage of the campaign. Not you personally. You don't have editorial

control. The BBC coverage, generally, has been a disgrace and

the people. Oil and gas, go and look at that, why is that not feature.

Why is the idea of 100 years of oil not featured in the campaign.

Because the BBC does not want to see it. Are you getting in your excuses

if you lose? You better be kidding. Is this the face of somebody looking

to lose. We are going to win, 60/40. Absolutely. There is a momentum that

you guys are not seeing on the working-class housing estates.

Working class people are fed up being taken for granted fed up with

the lives of people dragging us into tax cuts, bedroom tax for the poor.

They will have power on Thursday, and they will use it and vote for

freedom. Are you happy with the way the BBC has treated you today? So

far, yes. I have still not been offered a Coffey, but that might

happen. That is an obvious example of our bias. Tommy, we will speak to

you later with George Galloway. Welcome to the

Sunday Politics Wales. Scotland's independence referendum

is going down to the wire, and Welsh politicians want

a piece of the action. Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood has

been there to campaign for a yes vote.

Later I'll be asking her why. We'll be at the Scottish Parliament

to hear from James Williams, But we start with the First Minister

Carwyn Jones, also recently returned For Welsh politicians, it seems

all roads lead to Scotland. The leader of Plaid Cymru was up

there campaigning for a yes vote The next day,

it was the First Minister's turn, On Thursday, Shadow Welsh Secretary

Alun Smith was among Labour MPs who Back in Cardiff, Welsh politicians

and political enthusiasts had a conference to try to work out

what it all means for Wales. The truth is,

nobody knows for certain. The no campaign has promised further

devolution to Scotland and some hope it will mean more devolution is sent

Cardiff's way also. The support for independence in

Wales is at its lowest ever, despite what nationalist and separatist

forces would say in Wales. And I'm very pleased by that

and heartened by that. Clearly there is a demand

for more power, that has been shown We saw the recent Wales Bill going

through with more powers for tax and borrowing for Wales

and I think that is right. If Scotland votes yes,

there are hopes or fears from both sides of the debate that it will

fuel demand for Welsh independence. Belated talk

of more devolution is a sign that the no campaign is panicking,

according to nationalists. These sort

of shallow stunts that Westminster It is far bigger than that and I'm

confident it is going to be There's definitely a requirement

for greater powers for Wales and Scotland in whatever

the result of the referendum. If it is a yes vote, they would be

pressing to make sure that Wales has greater autonomy, otherwise we'll be

in an English dominated parliament with all of the main policy leaders

still under Westminster control. Everyone

in Welsh politics seems to agree that the result in Scotland will

change things for Wales, but how? I have come to the First Minister's

constituency in Bridgend to ask him other than a no vote what is he

hoping the referendum will deliver? But also, there is a desperate need

to ensure that all of the different leaders in the UK, the family of

nations, as the Prime Minister has called us, we'll sit down together

and say, this is how we want the UK to work and look like

in the 21st century And not for lack of you trying,

you have been talking about some kind of constitutional

convention for two years. Well, yes, I can see

my own words being repeated back to At the time, the feeling was that

the referendum in Scotland had to be gotten out of the way first

before the process moves forward. That is a fair point,

but it is important this is started Do you mean more powers

for the Assembly and which powers? Well, I would look for part one

of the Silk Commission report and part two as well, that is

important, we need to work out what the constitutional make-up of the

UK should look like in the years to come, not just about looking

at Wales separately or Scotland separately or Northern Ireland

separately, it is about looking at Do you think that your message

has been quite confused? You have said on Twitter,

that whatever Scotland gets, Wales should have and you had to

issue more tweets to say not welfare What is on offer should

be offered to Wales. It is a matter to judge

what is best for Wales. There's no reason why Wales should

be treated separately to Scotland, especially when it comes to

the structure of devolution. That should be the view

across the UK. It is not clear what

you're asking for. Part two

of the Silk Commission to be taken forward, a constitutional convention

so we can all sit down and look That is what I would

like to see taken forward. And when would you like the Silk 2

powers, we talk about power over I would like all the political

parties to put forward in the general election manifesto, what

they would like to do with regards When Gordon Brown is offering more

powers for the Scottish parliament, setting out a timetable,

were you consulted on any of that? It was something that came as news

to us, but of course, we have our own timetable with the Wales Bill

that is in parliament at the moment. And we hope to see another timetable

for the implementation of the powers Would you have hoped that

when your own party is offering power to Scotland,

that Wales will be included in this and we will devolve X, Y

and Z powers to Wales at that time? There is no doubt that we

have to look at Wales also. When the referendum is over,

we have to see what powers should reside where, and that hasn't been

done until now. Alex Salmond says you're not

consulted on these decisions, you're trying to show that devolution

works, and he says that Downing It is fair to say that

when I put forward the idea of the Constitutional Convention,

it wasn't their priority. It is a shame that it

wasn't two years ago. But there we are,

this is where we are now, we have to hope for a no vote in Scotland, in

my view, Thursday and then see the implementation, as far as Wales is

concerned, of Silk, and then that constitutional process to have

a holistic approach to devolution He uses the example of the M4,

saying you had to bargain for that, saying

if he didn't get the borrowing powers to build an M4, then you

wouldn't campaign for a no vote. I did say to the Prime Minister, it

would be very difficult for me to go to Scotland with credibility if they

didn't implement part one of Silk. How can I go to Scotland

and argue for a no vote when the first question I will be asked is,

hang on a second, this is sitting with Whitehall at the moment,

they have done nothing about it. They did do something about it

and it made it easier for me to be forward what I believed in, which is

that Scotland should vote no. If you try to show that devolution

works, why is it that you and the UK government cannot decide who will

pay for rail electrification? It is not a smooth,

functioning system. We will agree on that soon,

but it does show that there are deficiencies

in the Welsh devolution settlement. We know

the problems there have been. The fact we have had two government

bills referred to the Supreme Court We need to sort out

the settlement in Wales but we need to do that in the

context of deciding who does what at UK, Scotland, Northern Ireland and

Wales level and of course, to look And meanwhile,

Scottish Labour is telling Scotland vote no and we will keep the Barnett

formula, a formula that you say short-changes Wales, you're not

singing from the same hymn sheet. I do want Wales to get the money it

is entitled to, how that is done doesn't concern me, but Scotland is

bound to lose its Barnett To me,

that is a good way to guarantee the end of Scotland's funding under

the Barnett formula by having a yes vote, but what I'm interested in is

seeing Wales get its fair share. How that is done,

is less of an issue. Let me just ask you

about the reshuffle. Was Scotland in the post-referendum

world on your mind when you were Is this

the cabinet that will negotiate This is the cabinet that will

lead us into the election. I decided a long time ago that this

would be the right time to have what would be the final reshuffle

of this government up to 2016. And I have a very strong team

in place. Not everyone agrees with

the First Minister. Some think Scottish independence

would be good for Wales, so much so that they've been there

to campaign for it. One of them is the Plaid Cymru

leader Leanne Wood who joins us now. Welcome to the programme. Why had he

been campaigning for a yes vote in Scotland? I think if there is a yes

vote, it opens up politics throughout the other countries that

make up these islands. People in Scotland are not daft. They

understand the elite establishment in Westminster are offering nothing

but more austerity. And they tell people in Scotland that there is no

alternative to that. If Scotland leaves the UK, that elite

establishment in Westminster will be even more dominated by England. that

means that Wales needs to push for more powers to get resilience to any

detrimental policies meted out to us in Wales. It is in our interest to

build up the infrastructure, build up the institutions, so that we can

get to the point we can have the same national conversation that

people are having in Scotland. The conversation they are having in

Scotland is tantamount to a revolution in democracy. Everyone is

engaged. There appears to be very little apathy. 97% of the population

are to vote and it is expected to have between 80% and 90% turnout in

the referendum. If we could have that level of debate in Wales, that

would be a similar kind of revolution and democracy. We may

build up infrastructure and have debate, but in the short-term,

things would be even more tilted towards the things you want to get

away from. At the moment, we have a very timid government that is unable

to influence matters and key figures in Westminster on this debate. You

speak about the Welsh Government. Yes. We have to come together as a

nation and demand that we are notice of. We have been a spectator nation

for too long and we need to see not a First Minister like we just saw in

the interview there, who is timid and unable to stand up for the

interests of Wales, against the elitist establishment in

Westminster, we need a government that can take these people on and

make sure that Wales's voice is heard and that is the government

Plaid Cymru will offer in 2016. You would hope that this would inspire

Welsh people to go for independence, what do you think about that

considering that Welsh independence is not popular according to the

opinion polls. If there is independence in Scotland, it opens

up the possibilities in Wales, but we are on different journeys. I

cannot say that we would move to the same situation. The SNP had to get a

majority government before they had the right to put the question to the

people in Scotland and they won that right, and that is what I would seek

to do also. If people in Wales want to see Wales independent of the

country and to see a plan getting us to that point, the only way is to

give Plaid Cymru a mandate to become the government of Wales after 2016.

Let's compare with Scotland, both yourself and Alex Salmond have used

the slogan forward, the SNP has moved forward, but Plaid Cymru has

gone back since 1999 when you hit the high water mark, why is that? We

have had a different emphasis as two different parties in two different

countries. Our emphasis is on building up the institution. We went

into coalition government in order to deliver a referendum on a

lawmaking Parliament. I'd macro you have not prospered from a to? -- you

have not prospered from it with votes. We are not focused on the

system that we need to solve the problem is that Wales has. Their

economic problems and we have a first Minister and government in

Wales that are turning down the opportunity to take control over

those leaders that can create jobs. That doesn't explain why it

happened, why has Plaid Cymru not moved forward in the way the SNP

has? Because we have different priorities. The SNP has prioritised

being the major party in government and they did not go to try and

chronicle changes in their settlement in the same way that we

in Wales. Our settlement was far weaker when devolution was

established. There was already a criminal justice system and an

education system in Scotland, we had to start from scratch in Wales. They

are ahead of the curve in Scotland, but I am convinced we are on the

same journey, just at different stages of that journey. Thank you.

Let's go to Scotland and outside the Scottish Parliament

in Edinburgh is our referendum reporter, James Williams.

We were in Scotland at the start of the summer, it was gripped by

referendum fever, what is it like now? This is the most remarkable

political event I have covered in my career and speaking with seasoned

political hacks appear that have covered elections and the referendum

for a decade, they have never experienced anything like this. The

first Minister of Scotland and the former Chancellor Alistair Darling

were saying this morning that this referendum really has energised

political debate in Scotland like never before. It is hard to argue

with this, because on the street, everyone has an opinion about this

referendum, either way of the debate. It is borne out by the

figures. 97% of people aged -- eligible to vote have registered

here. The turnout could be over 80%, even as high as 90%, which is

remarkable, when you consider in the 2011 Scottish general election which

gave the SNP its majority and a mandate to hold this referendum on

the first place, only 50% of people voted in that election, so it gives

you some context. One anecdote regarding the last week, which

underlines the precedent it levels of engagement, I was working with a

freelance cameraman who has never voted in Scottish elections in his

life. -- unprecedented levels. He was offered a job with another

broadcaster to cover the Celtic, Salzburg Europa League match on

Thursday, he refused that job, saying he cannot miss the referendum

vote, it is too important. Politics is more important than football,

that is something. The polls are still on a knife edge. Yes,

incredibly tight, and it changed gear last Sunday when the poll was

published in the Sunday Times suggesting that the yes campaign had

a very, very slight lead for the first time. There have been some

polls since then that showed that the no campaign is ahead by a small

margin, and three post today suggest that no is ahead and one suggesting

that yes as -- is ahead. If we look at the last six opinion polls, it

suggests that 51% of people will support no and 49% will say yes.

Things are really balanced on a knife edge. Meanwhile, everyone in

Wales is trying to figure out what it means for Wales, you asked

politicians about that. Yes, it is the big question, it is difficult to

answer. Especially with a yes vote. A 300-year-old political union comes

to an end and all bets are off. If there is a Nova Road, more powers

have been promised to the Scottish Parliament. -- a no vote. It becomes

even stronger and there is an unbalanced union which becomes even

more evident. Has been lots of Welsh input into what that means for Wales

and lots of Welsh politician to have visited this campaign which has

shown the first Mr Carwyn Jones visiting Edinburgh earlier this

week, where he was campaigning for a no vote. -- it has shown the First

Minister Carwyn Jones. I spoke with the Scottish First Minister Alex

Salmond earlier this week in Dundee and he had a message for Wales and

we will also hear from a that, the Shadow Welsh Secretary campaigning

for a vote. -- no vote. All I would say to the people of

Wales, is the example of Scotland, regardless of how you think Scotland

should vote, as people in Scotland decide to take power into our own

hands, we have got the Westminster parties scrambling, scrambling

in the panic to offer us anything. Isn't that a lesson

for the people of Wales And rather than Carwyn asking a Tory

government to give him a few crumbs from the table, why

don't the people of Wales mobilise It is all to play for, this will be

a very close call, and it is a Do I think it is too

little too late? It is a campaign and campaigns

always build towards the end. When I was up here in the summer,

lots of Welsh Labour MPs have been here in the summer before, we will

all be here in the next week, there is a huge Wales contingent

here today, it is important to keep fighting until the last minute,

because we have got to win this for the working people of Scotland

and the working people After two years of campaigning, 4.2

million people in Scotland will have their say on Thursday and it could

come down to 500,000 people that have yet to decide. One Scottish

newspaper this morning has said, Scotland, it is time. Thank you.

There will be more from the yes and no camps in Wales on BBC One

Bethan Rhys Roberts will be chairing a live debate from the Assembly

which will be assessing what impact the vote, either way,

tomorrow evening followed by a phone-in on Radio Wales

Joining me is Professor Laura McAllister

Welcome to the programme, we were both at a conference in Cardiff is

trying to figure out what this means for Wales earlier in the week, any

conclusions? Difficult to find a conclusion in the last week, but

what was very apparent in the conference and in the coverage, is

that this would be big business for Wales after Thursday. If there is a

yes vote, it will really shock some people in Wales to see how the union

that we have with England and Northern Ireland will be

unbalanced. And I think that will create some shock waves through the

political classes in Wales and probably more importantly if there

is a no vote, it gives wealth and opportunity, or the Welsh leaders in

opportunity to influence the recasting of UK politics. The key

thing will be the consensus and the degree of voice that Wales hasn't

this discussion. We heard Carwyn Jones talking about a constitutional

convention, it is late that people are picking up on that idea, there

are proposals on the table from the silk commission to give the Assembly

more power, does that become more or less likely if there is a no vote in

the Scottish Parliament? Silk is part of the jigsaw, purely, if there

is a no vote, because we're talking about a real recasting a vigorous

politics which is probably the most significant change, regionalism,

Devo Maxim Scotland, and possibly asking Northern Ireland if they want

to be included in those changes. -- Devo Max in Scotland. As we know,

Wales has a small boys and a quiet voice at the moment, so much will

depend on if there can be anything built from this. -- Wales has a

small boys. This has grabbed attention across the UK. Collected

reawakening, shock waves going through the British establishment.

The question is, will this have permanent change or will it be a

temporary phenomenon? If there is a no vote, Westminster, and the

political journalist, their attention will move on to

by-elections, UKIP, Boris Johnson and the moment will be lost for

people that want a more powerful assembly. That is up to us to a

sticky pressurising, because we have a media that is incredibly ignorant

about Scotland and Wales. -- that is up to us to keep pressurising. We

have known from long-time, but whether this referendum shakes up

the establishment and makes them recognise that it is in their

interest to pay more attention is another question. What you predict?

It would be foolish to predict at this point, it might not be as

close, because we do not know if it goes one way or another. Thank you.

Don't forget you can follow all the latest developments on twitter,

the address is on the screen now @walespolitics -

and on Thursday night on our online services you can get

a Welsh perspective on the Scottish result in English and Welsh.

For now though, that's all from me, it's time to go back to Andrew

The last time a sewer was built in London was 150 years ago, otherwise

we would have a dirty River Thames. Andrew, back to you.

Can the No campaign still pull it off?

And even if they do is the whole of the UK now on the brink

I'm joined now by John McTernan, former adviser to Gordon Brown

and Tony Blair, Alex Bell, former Head of Policy for the SNP

and Lindsay McIntosh, the Times Scottish Political Editor.

And I'm delighted that Tommy and George have stayed too.

No fighting has broken out either. Where

No fighting has broken out either. have three full days to go

No fighting has broken out either. polling day. What is the state of

play? I think the poll of polls is accurate. 49 and 51%. What is vital

is to bring the undecided voters in, and they properly have about

500,000. I think there are a lot of undecided people. I think they know

which way they are leaning, but they haven't jumped. The hope of the no

campaign is that they will go for the status quo on Thursday. How do

you assess the state of the campaign now? The crucial thing is the big

swing. The swing has come towards yes, so will the momentum carry it

over the line? I will think it does, because it is an antiestablishment

swell, and its people responding to standard Western as the politicians

and saying that they want a new way -- Westminster politicians. I think

that yes will sneak it. A referendum can be more important than a general

election, and the Yes campaign have had the momentum. This was the week

the momentum stopped. We started the week looking as though yes were

going into the lead and then it stopped and most of the recent polls

show a distinct lead for the no campaign. A distinct lead? It is one

or two points. It is six in one poll, two in another, aiding

another. The poll of polls is a good way of measuring, and is it

statistically Nick -- nip and tuck? It is the week the momentum stopped.

About a fifth of the electorate. That will be a quarter of the

turnout have voted already, by postal vote, and they are running

very strongly towards no, so there is a whole bank of votes there. The

postal votes are skewed to the over 60s, and that is the demographic

that the Yes campaign have had the biggest trouble with. Absolutely,

the Yes campaign faced a challenge amongst the 16 and 18-year-olds and

always based challenge with the older voters. Trust me, I was the

decision the day the civil servants made it possible for the 16 to

18-year-olds to vote, and we said there was a victory for the no

campaign in that alone. The young tend to be conservative by nature. I

think again that to say that the momentum has stopped when you had a

20 point lead, this is a referendum whether people will speak and they

will be heard. Except for the one poll which needs a huge health

warning because of the size of the sample, the momentum is

unquestionably all the way through August is going in the direction of

yes. It hasn't quite continue to get to the 55/45 four yes that Alex

Salmond thinks will be the result. I would agree with John. This was the

momentum stalled. We saw the three leaders coming up, and that kept

Alex Salmond off the front pages on the television and we had a raft of

economic warnings which, although they were dismissed as

scaremongering, they will have had a lot of traction with voters. What

does the no campaign have to do in the final three days? It has to

focus on the undecided, relentlessly. It has to do stick to

the question of risk and keep pushing back on Alex Salmond to say

it doesn't matter if the banks leave, it will all be all right on

the night. The huge question amongst the undecided voters is about the

economy. It is about jobs and currency, about business. That risk

is what will crystallise in the ballot box on Thursday and that has

to be the focus. What does the Yes campaign have to do? It has to drive

home that the swing to the Yes campaign is motivated by people who

want a different politics. They have decided amongst themselves that they

want to change Scotland. The unfortunate thing is, even though

the no campaign has had the chance to put up after proposals, they have

failed. The Scottish people want their powers were a purpose and they

say that only the Yes campaign can deliver that. There will be two days

of relentless campaigning from today, Monday and Tuesday, then the

media, the newspapers, including your own, will come out with the

final poll, the ones that will be the closest to the day that the

Scots actually go and vote. I think we will see more polling this week,

but what is interesting is the extent to which the pollsters are

picking up what is going on in the street. We know we have a huge

number of voters who have never voted before and are not engage with

politics, so what will they do? The third candidate in the election, if

I can would in this way, are the polls. They might have a lot of

questions to answer on Friday morning. We were talking earlier

with George and Tommy about the Labour Party's consequences in all

of this. Gordon Brown, of course, has had a bit of a second coming as

a result of this referendum. I just want to play a clip of Gordon Brown

during the campaign and get a reaction. And I say this to Alex

Salmond himself. Up until today I am outside front line politics. If he

continues to peddle this deception, that the Scottish Parliament under

his leadership, and he cannot do anything to improve the health

service until he has a separate state, then I will want to join Joe

Hanlon want in and securing the return of a Labour government as

quickly as possible -- Johann Lamont. That was seen by some people

as Gordon Brown implying he might stand for the Scottish Parliament.

Whether it is yes or no, is Gordon Brown the saviour of Scottish

Labour? I did a double black the other night -- double act with him

the other night, and I must say he was a big beast all over again. He

crossed the stage Meli dealt with the audience brilliantly. He has a

certain presence, Gordon Brown, but he would really have to reinvent

himself quite considerably. He is capable of doing, but the man who

was the biographer of Jimmy Maxton, who pulled together the original red

paper on Scotland, he would have to be that Gordon Brown rather than the

Gordon Brown of some more melancholy events later. Tommy, you have both

been critical of the state of the Scottish Labour Party. Rather than

looking to Gordon Brown, which might be an interim solution, doesn't

Scottish Labour have to find a new generation of people to reignite it?

What George and I are agreed on, and you have to remember this question

of independence see us disagreeing passionately, and in most other

things we find ourselves in agreement, one thing is clear,

Scottish Labour is finished. They have lost the heart and soul of

Scotland. The fact that we are discussing with four days to go an

independence referendum that is neck and neck, Labour have failed

miserably, absolutely miserably, because they have given up

everything they stood for. The SNP has picked it up. They have just

taken on the bank -- mantle of a left of centre party and are picking

up support. Gordon and the rest, in my opinion, they represent the past.

The yes vote on the Yes campaign represents the future. What do you

say to that? There is nothing socialist about an SNP that wants to

cut business tax by 3% in the pan. There is nothing socialist about an

SNP destroying further education so they can give middle-class people

free education. The Labour Party is alive and kicking. You can see if it

is Gordon Brown, or Jim Murphy with the 100 days tour. But I hesitate to

use this word, but they are kind of privatised from the Scottish Labour

Party. They have rode their own fallow. Jim Murphy was on the stump

because official Scottish Labour did not want him leading their campaign.

Gordon Brown was, I think, kept off the stage until it became so

Gordon Brown was, I think, kept off back. I agree with John, the SNP

talks left but acts right. That is before they get state powers. That

is what is exciting about the referendum, it's not about the SNP,

it's about the people deciding. What we have heard so far in the

referendum campaign is that there is a desperate yearning in the

electorate for real politics, purposeful politics and for the

people to be represented. It is probably to the eternal shame of

labour that they gave up that role and other people are now taking it

upon themselves. How would you assess the state of the Labour

Party? The problem is that it was demolished by the SNP in 2011 and

what they should have done since then and in other circumstances is

take a real look within themselves and brought forward new talent and

policies and and brought forward new talent and

stood for. They've been unable to do that because they are locked in a

constitutional row. It is the plan that because they are locked in a

of the Nationalists to fight the first Scottish general election as

an independent nation as a nationalist party with its own

programme. You don't all go your own way. Why don't

more on your main reason to be, so why not go, left,

more on your main reason to be, so question you are presuming you don't

go the one-way. I do not see the function of the SNP after

go the one-way. I do not see the vote. I think it is clear that there

is an SNP under Nicola vote. I think it is clear that there

SNP which attracts votes from the left and that is the one for me.

Whether that is something else, I don't know. I

think the assumption that we are going into a mirror of old politics

in a new world is just fundamentally flawed. That is interesting. Let's

just bring in the English dimensional. In many ways, England

has not spoken in this referendum campaign. Whether it is yes or no,

it will, and to give you a flavour of what some in England might be

thinking was saying, here is a clip from John Redwood. We are fed up

with this lopsided devolution, from John Redwood. We are fed up

unfair devolution. Scotland gets first-class Devolution, Wales gets

second-class devolution first-class Devolution, Wales gets

gets nothing. If Wales wants the same as us, they should have it, and

then there would be commonality so we could discuss and decide in our

in Parliament, all those things that in Parliament, all those things that

are devolved. George, it was clear that if Scotland voted yes for

independence it has huge implications for England than the

UK, but it's also clear particularly after Gordon Brown's intervention,

even if it is no, it has huge after Gordon Brown's intervention,

agreeing with John Redwood that after Gordon Brown's intervention,

there should be an English boys. It would be a step too far for me to

agree with him -- English voice. I appreciate I might have gone out on

a limb. He is the voice of Mars, the Balkan from Mars. My own

constituents in Bradford are asking, what about us? All these things

being done, all the extra mile is being travel to Scotland, what about

us? Labour would be well advised to adjust quickly on this so that the

John Redwood types do not steal the show. England has yes to use -- yet

to speak. It's interesting when you hear a Labour backbencher in

Scotland talk about a command paper. He is not in government. Gordon

Brown is going round Scotland promising things and he has

absolutely no chance of delivering them. The MPs in England will say,

hey, what are you talking about? We have never been discussed with that?

We have not agreed with that. The only way people in Scotland will get

the powers they deserve is by voting yes. Crystal ball time, Tommy, you

think it is 60/40. I will stick with it, because we have an unprecedented

election. 97% of Scotland is registered to vote. The working

class will vote in numbers never voted before. George? 55/45 for our

side. And if there is a rogue poll, the tek Levesley polled --

technically flawed poll, which should not be published because it

technically flawed poll, which is so flawed, then we would be

stretching towards what I am predicting already. I think in the

last few days we will reach that. Come on. If the no campaign can get

the silent majority out, they will edge it. You think they will win,

but how much? They cannot give up in a second, a moment or a mile. It is

that close. It will be won by the passionate view. I will go for a

narrow yes victory. I'm the George, 53 or 54% in favour of Joe -- no. --

I am with George. I will leave you to argue about that later. Thank you

for being with us on the special Sunday politics from Edinburgh.

That's all from us today in Scotland.

Don't forget the Daily Politics will have continuing coverage

of the referendum campaign all this week on BBC2 at midday.

On Thursday night Huw Edwards will be in Glasgow and I will be

in London to bring you live coverage of the results on BBC1 from 10.40 pm

on a historic night for Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom.

And I'll be back next Sunday when we're live from the Labour

Unless, of course, the referendum result is so tumultuous even the

Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

or to stay part of the United Kingdom?

The BBC's online coverage will keep you up to date with every development

with live streaming of the key moments, expert opinions