03/07/2016 Sunday Politics Wales

Five Tory candidates square up to become Prime Minister,

after a Leave vote in the referendum.

Mr Corbyn, surely you can stop and spare 30 seconds

to talk to the media, this is embarassing.

He's lost a vote of no confidence and most of his Shadow Cabinet -

The rule books are being re-written, so what's next for Wales in Europe?

And one of Labour's big beasts warns us of the danger facing the party.

And with me, three political journalists, key lieutenants

who have pledged unflinching loyalty to the programme, so I'm expecting

them to jump ship to ITV for Peston's Croissants any moment -

Helen Lewis, Tom Newton Dunn and Isabel Oakeshott.

So after a brutal week in Tory politics, the party's leadership

candidates are all out making their pitch for the top job

Conservative MPs get to whittle a shortlist of five down to two,

who will then face a ballot of the party's wider membership.

This is what we've heard from them so far this morning.

We need to seize the opportunity. It's not just about leaving the EU,

but giving certainty to businesses, saying to the world we are open for

business, lets get some free trade agreement started as soon as we can.

It's about saying to young people, we are sorting out the issues around

competition from EU migrants for your jobs. Businesses need to

upscale British workers. We just need to get on with it. We need to

establish our own negotiating position. Once we hit Article 50,

once we invoke that, the process at the EU starts and could take up to

two years. What is important is that we get the right deal, a deal which

is about controlling free movement, but is also about ensuring we have

the best deal in trading goods and services. I didn't want to be in

this position. If I had wanted to be leader, if my sole ambition was

place and position, if I just wanted the glory, I would have declared my

candidacy last week. Many friends urged me to do so. I put my own

ambition to one side and did what I thought was right for the country.

Now I am entering this race because I think the next leader of the

country needs to be someone who believes heart and soul that Britain

should be outside the European Union. We are all committed to

taking Britain out of the European Union. We all stood on the manifesto

to abide by the outcome of the referendum. We all share a

commitment to taking Britain out of the European Union. What gains trust

is showing now that we have a clearer idea for how we will do that

and what our principles will be that will guide the exit.

Four of the candidates there, and we'll be talking

to Liam Fox in a moment, but first, let's talk to my panel.

Isabel, we sum up this morning and see if you agree. Theresa May

consolidated her frontrunner status. Andrea Leadsom performed in a way

that suggested she wasn't quite ready for prime time. And Michael

Gove cannot escape the manner in which he has become a candidate. I

think that is fair. Certainly in relation to Michael Gove, what we

have seen this morning is him trying to persuade the nation that the way

he behaved was reasonable and had nothing to do with his personal

ambition. The question is not whether it was reasonable or to do

with his ambition, but whether it was an honourable way to behave. And

most of us who know Michael would have thought until now that he is an

honourable person, a man of principle. But he can't get away

from the fact of the manner in which he did it, at the last possible

moment, which was guaranteed to create a very ugly situation for

Boris Johnson. And this morning, instead of wanting to try and talk

about his vision for Britain and what he would do if he was Prime

Minister and so on, again and again, he had to defend his behaviour over

last weekend and through the week. Absolutely. Whether he likes it or

not, he is now the Ed Miliband of the Conservative Party. That is the

narrative. Ed Miliband killed his brother David. He killed his brother

in arms, Boris Johnson. Michael Gove is an interesting candidate, very

different to Theresa May, the radical entry. But he has got dead

bodies piling up behind him. David Cameron, the European Union and now

Boris Johnson. Even George Osborne was his friend. And Aberdeen Grammar

schoolboy gets hat-trick of Bullingdon boys, takes all three

out. It is an extraordinary record. But I don't see how he can move away

from that. The person who really has to be worried now is Andrea Leadsom.

She is target number one. The one thing Michael Gove has proved is

that he's good at taking people's legs from underneath them. He is

competing with Andrea Leadsom for crown of the truly 'em champion.

That is Michael Gove's pitch -- the true Leave champion. She got into

trouble this morning on tax returns. Well, there had been rumbling issue

with Andrea Leadsom offshore trusts. This is not new. There is also a

question mark over what she may or may not have said a couple of years

ago about whether she really thinks Brexit is a good idea. I disagree

with the negative assessment of Andrea Leadsom. I think she is an

impressive person and she does have a good chance, because she can cast

herself as a true Brexiteer who was undamaged like Michael Gove by the

events of last week. It would have to be her or Michael Gove as a

Brexiteer. Don't underestimate the effort to get Michael Gove getting

into the last two. There is talk of Theresa May as such a frontrunner in

the MPP is -- in the MPP collections that it may not go to the country.

That would be a stretch, but if it is two Remainers, Theresa May and

Stephen Crabb, but Theresa May is way ahead, it may not go to the

country. But if it is a Remainer, May and a Brexiteer, Andrea Leadsom

or Michael Gove, it has to go to the Tory party. That is exactly the

dynamic that will play out in the next 12 days among the Tories in the

Commons. What you have just done, I'm afraid, is committed to mistake

that Stephen Crabb only this morning has said that everyone needs to move

on from, which is between leavers and Remainers in the Tory party. It

serves the likes of Michael Gove and Andrea Leadsom well to say there are

two caps. If Tory MPs can move on quickly from the great divide, you

could easily see two Remainers and the Theresa coronation. If they

can't and the might of you ask questions like that, I cannot see

anything but Theresa May and Michael Gove or Andrea Leadsom on the final

ticket, because the Tory Parliamentary party will not allow

others. If you think Tory MPs are going to move on for the issue that

presided over them for the last generation, I have a bridge to sell

you. I know, but the problem is that we voted for Brexit, not any

particular form of it. It will come down to the issue of freedom of

movement and what type Brexit you are offering. The original Leavers

will probably offer a stronger version of Brexit than the other

side. Who is going to win? Looks like Theresa May. Let me say Andrea

Leadsom to be excited. Boringly, Theresa May. And you are just being

contrarian. We shall see. A long way to go.

Now, Liam Fox is the only candidate to have stood

Here he is, launching his bid on Thursday.

If we are to heal the divisions created by the referendum,

we must fully implement the instruction given to us

for membership of the single market

if it entails the movement of people.

Those who voted to leave the EU would regard it as a betrayal,

Everybody thinks you will come fifth on Tuesday. You would be the first

to be knocked out, so why are you standing? Well, we will see what the

result is. If you remember 2005, they were all wrong then. The reason

I am in this is because we need to take the argument on from the

referendum to how we take Britain out of the European Union. We also

have to look at other issues. We are not in this leadership race in

netting a Leader of the Opposition, which is what we have done before.

Someone does not have four years to play themselves in. The day after

this election, someone will be difficult from Mr Putin and I will

have to make an assessment on our nuclear deterrence. It is a lot more

than just a rerun of the European argument. We have to get this into

perspective. It is not a parlour game we are playing, not an

extension of the European Union. This is a government having to make

serious decisions in a dangerous world. How many Tory MPs are backing

you? I am not saying, because it only helps everybody else.

Tactically, it makes sense to keep your powder dry. In double figures's

oh, yes. But still in fifth place. I don't know what the other numbers

will be. This is different from the previous campaign I stood in,

because in that one, by this point, most people had committed. There is

a large number of uncommitted people in this race. Therefore, the most

important event will be the party has things tomorrow night. There are

three Leavers running. What do you bring to the contest that Andrea

Leadsom and Michael Gove don't? I have been in the Foreign Office. I

understand how European mechanics operates. We are now seeing the road

ahead. People have been asking, how do you set the ground rules before

you trigger article 50? This week, we have seen a differentiation

between the position of the commission, which is hard line, and

a softer approach from our elected colleagues across the European

Union. For example, on Newsnight the other night, the European trade

Commissioner said we couldn't have any negotiations on trade with

Britain until we were outside the EU. She was asked, wouldn't that be

detrimental to every economy in Europe? And she said yes. That is a

crazy position and it tells you how stupid the approach of the

commission is. So we have to talk to our German and French colleagues who

have elections next year, and we have to say to them, let's talk

about what would be in our mutual interests. Before triggering Article

50. Yes, and say to them, what sort of flexibility do we have? What can

we do in our mutual interests? You have elections next year and you

want to sell to the Germans and the French and idea of how to maintain

prosperity. At the moment, they are saying no informal talks. It is true

that Mrs Merkel is sounding more friendly than the commission or even

President Hollande, but at the moment, there are no talks. You must

expect that to change? I do expect it to change once we have a new

Prime Minister. We want to implement the view of the British people. I

don't want a deal that includes anything to do with free movement.

That was rejected by the public. So we have to say to the European

Parliament, this is the position we have all stop how do we do that in a

way that doesn't cause you greater inconvenience than necessary? But

there will be a trade-off between an element of free movement, but less

than we have at the moment, and a certain access to the single market,

but less than we have at the moment? For example, whether you have quotas

in turns of job visas you are going to give, that is something. If we

had quotas for Europeans coming here, they undoubtedly will have

quotas for us going there. It will have to be reciprocal. It is one of

the things we will have to understand. If we introduce

restrictions on work permits, settlement and work will be

restricted, but not travel, and we have to expect moves in the other

direction. Is it true that if Theresa May had promised to make you

her Foreign Secretary, you would not be running? I would not have

accepted any promise. Anybody who makes you a promise in a race like

this doesn't deserve to get to the top. Was a matter for discussion

between your people and her people? No. I have had discussions with

Stephen Crabb and Andrea Leadsom is a friend, and I have spoken to

Theresa, but I would not make or accept any offer, because any Prime

Minister must keep themselves free from promises to bring in the

Cabinet they require. And with a small parliamentary majority and a

very big split in the party ideologically over what happened in

the European Union, whoever wins will have to make a lot of

compromises across a lot of the party if we are to have an effective

government. What's most important quality for

the next Prime Minister, to be a Brexiteer or to have experience?

They are both important. Experience matters. It is not something... So

the Remainer would be possible? It doesn't have to be a Brexiteer? It

is possible to be a Remainer, but I have to view it in this way, I think

the honest critique of this is that how do our European partners see it?

If you were negotiating with Britain, would you be more likely to

take seriously somebody who had campaigned to leave the European

Union or someone who chose to remain? If you are out after

Tuesday, who will you back? Naturally you don't even expect me

to answer hypothetical question like that? I do. Hope springs eternal,

but all the candidates have their strengths and weaknesses. So which

one? If that were to happen, and I'm not expecting it to happen on

Tuesday, I would come to a decision some time after that and make it

known in the usual way. You don't know yet? If I know I'm not going to

tell you. At the moment Theresa May is the front runner. If they were to

emerge from the Parliamentary contest with a clear majority, an

overall majority among MPs, and polls suggesting a clear majority

among the party faithful in the country, should it still go to the

country? Under our rules, it should still go to the country and I think

the Parliamentary party... The Conservative Party in the country

would expect there to be a contest. That might differ, if there were to

be a huge an overall majority in parliament for any one candidate, I

think MPs would say what would happen then if the Parliamentary

party had a different view from the party and the country, what would it

mean for the authority of the Prime Minister? It is a hypothetical, but

it is an important question we will have to think about in the next 12

days. Very well, a lot can happen in the next 12 days, because not much

has happened in the last 12 days! Liam Fox, thank you.

Now, as the Tories descended into post-referendum turmoil,

the stand-off continues in the Labour Party

with rebellious MPs - the bulk of the parliamentary party

expressing no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn, but yet to put up

Mark Lobel has been following the twists and turns

I think people may look back on this week as the week

when the Labour Party committed suicide.

He's a good and decent man, but he is not a leader,

The Labour Party are being ripped apart...

sacked his Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn,

he received over 30 Shadow Cabinet and ministerial resignations

ahead of this EU referendum debate.

and the country will thank neither the benches in front of me

in internal manoeuvring at this time.

In response, his supporters amassed outside Parliament.

Don't let those people who wish us ill divide us.

at a meeting with his party behind closed doors

on the eve of a no-confidence vote

his battle with his own colleagues worsened.

It was overwhelmingly dignified for most of the meeting,

where people were pleading with Jeremy saying,

"I like you, you've always been my friend.

I appreciate what you've tried to do,

but this is tearing the Labour Party apart".

With 50 vacant positions to fill, Jeremy Corbyn reshuffled his pack

He was visibly uncomfortable with the arrangement.

And between takes, a critic of his leadership,

his deputy Tom Watson, had left the room.

I think that Seamus Milne, Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell

and Diane Abbott, they have the mentality of people in a bunker.

The whole of the rest of the world is against them.

They are interested in the plight of people on Pacific islands.

They are interested in the Falklands.

They are interested in a whole range of things like that.

But they are not interested and have very little understanding

of the processes of Westminster politics.

On Wednesday, in the first PMQs since Brexit,

the Prime Minister surprised many with this intervention.

Well, the heavens have certainly opened on Jeremy Corbyn's parade.

Ed Miliband, once tipped to join his cabinet after the referendum,

I did find one fan of Jeremy Corbyn's,

It's obviously a highly emotional subject, this,

On Thursday morning, it looked like a challenger

Are you going to stand for the leadership?

I'll be saying something later today.

It's 2.35 here in Westminster this Thursday afternoon, and rumours

We understand that four of Jeremy Corbyn's closest allies,

four MPs he'd just recently put into his new Shadow Cabinet,

have gone into his office and are trying

As it happened, they weren't invited in.

Our source said the Shadow Cabinet ministers were left exasperated

and frustrated, unable to deliver their suggested

retirement plan for Mr Corbyn to the man himself.

no challenge to Jeremy Corbyn's leadership emerged.

We're at the Royal Festival Hall, and we're just about to hear

a speech from Jeremy Corbyn's biggest ally,

the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell.

He claimed the Shadow Cabinet resignations have allowed

a new generation of politicians to come forward.

This has given opportunities to people like Barry,

who I think should have been in Shadow Cabinet years ago,

And they're rising to the challenge effectively.

These are the heroes and heroines of our movement at the moment.

You talked about the movement, rather than the party.

Is that usurping traditional party structures?

The movement is the Labour Party, and we're building it on a mass

basis into a social movement so it isn't just an electoral machine,

it is something that engages in the wider community.

If the Labour Party is to reconnect with people, it needs to do more

than have soundbites and a polished media performance

It needs to build a social movement, and I think Jeremy and John

They've stood on picket lines alongside striking workers.

With the threat of a leadership contest on the horizon,

over the past week, Labour membership has risen by 60,000.

But a new YouGov poll suggests that Labour Party members think

Jeremy Corbyn is not doing as well in his job

Aside from the focus on his own future, Jeremy Corbyn

still has half a dozen key shadow front bench posts to fill so that

Labour can offer effective opposition in Parliament.

I'm joined now by the Labour MP Barry Gardiner, who has stayed loyal

to Jeremy Corbyn and is now in the Shadow Cabinet.

How can Jeremy Corbyn be regarded as a credible Leader of the Opposition?

He cannot fill his Shadow Cabinet team and 80% of his fellow Labour

MPs have no confidence in him. We have a very difficult situation in

the Labour Party at the moment. We have a division between the

Parliamentary Labour Party... The Parliamentary Labour Party has never

actually supported Jeremy. Last year I think it was only 36 nominations

that he secured. I didn't nominate Jeremy and I didn't vote for him,

but nonetheless the way in which our party decides upon a leader is not

just with the Parliamentary Labour Party, it is with the membership as

well. What we have to do now is we now need to have a situation where

we broker that divide, and we have seen, I think earlier today, we have

seen that Jeremy himself wants to do that. He came out in the press today

saying that, and also I think the unions have been saying that as

well. A figure like Frances O'Grady or perhaps John Prescott, someone

who has stayed neutral, out of the fight, but ultimately has the best

interest, not of Jeremy, not of the party, but of the country, which

needs to have a strong opposition at the moment at a time when you have

seen the newspapers this morning, the Conservatives have their own

problems. You have dealt with that. Calling each other hypocrites. Boris

stabbed David, Michael Gove stabbed Boris, but there are fundamental

issues about housing, fundamental issues about investment in this

country. Before you can even get to that or deserve a hearing on that,

you have got to sort things out as you have been seen. We have John

Prescott on later in the programme, we will see if he is willing to be

the honest broker in this, but in your mind what would be the general

principle of a brokered agreement? What would be the compromise for Mr

Corbyn? I'm not sitting here in that position as the negotiator, but what

I would say is there are certain things that need to be respected.

The democracy of the party needs to be respected, and that's what I had

against the way in which this whole... Call it what you like...

To, plot was done. It was done in a way that didn't respect party

members, didn't respect party democracy, and whatever we end up

with the result of a negotiation, it must show that respect for the party

membership. The second obviously is the legacy that Jeremy feels is his

responsibility. He was elected with particular... On a particular

mandate, political mandate. Not just about party democratisation, but a

suite of policies that he would want to be sure were continued. Somehow

we need to make sure that the compromise, whatever it is, brings

both of those together. You are already talking about Mr Corbyn's

legacy and you are talking about a suite of policies that could

continue to be party policy even if he wasn't there. We are talking

about a negotiated settlement. Which could involve Mr Corbyn going? That

is not a matter for me. If you go into a negotiation, you are going to

negotiate and what we know is that one side of that negotiation wants

Jeremy to go now without a contest. The other side of that negotiation

has clearly said there isn't going to be a resignation. What one has to

do is say, any of these permutations may come together. The question is

in what form, what shape? The coup, if I can call it that, try to ensure

Jeremy simply threw up his hands and went. That is clearly not going to

happen. Therefore what we have to do is be able to provide a strong and

credible and real opposition to the Government at the moment because the

country is in crisis after Brexit. Absolute crisis. Not just the pound

falling to 35 euros, not just the stock markets but the whole future

negotiation of investment in this country is up for grabs and we need

to be saying that firmly to the House of Commons. And we don't have,

at a time when many people think we most need it, we don't have a

credible opposition. And we don't have a credible government, they are

squabbling like rats in sacks. That seems to be the default position in

politics on all sides! Let me put this to you, if you don't have a

contest, Mr Corbyn cannot function as a credible opposition because he

cannot fill the Shadow Cabinet and the other positions. If you do have

a contest and he wins in the country, that doesn't resolve things

either so neither of these two options really help you. Do they?

That may be true but there may be a third way. What is that? A brokered

agreement without Mr Corbyn? There would have to be a third way. I

don't know what it is. It is not Tony Blair, I assume? We have moved

on somewhat since those days and I'm huge admirer of Tony Blair and he

led the Labour Party into government, and he won those

collections and delivered a tremendous mandate, but that's not

where we are now. It is your use of the third way that interested me. If

there is to be a contest, if one of the rebels finally comes forward as

a challenger and you have the vote again, would you vote for Mr Corbyn?

I didn't vote for Jeremy nine months ago. He was not my choice as leader

of the party. What I will do, if a candidate comes forward to challenge

Jeremy, if Jeremy is part of that election, I will look at all of the

candidates and make my judgment at that time as to what best serves not

only the interests of the Labour Party, but what best serves the

interests of the country. How did you vote in the no-confidence

motion? That was a secret ballot and I will keep it that way. So you

didn't vote for him before and you might not vote for him again and you

keep the no-confidence ballot secret. Isn't there a systemic

problem in the Labour Party that has developed with all the new Labour is

that came in from last summer onwards, that they have invigorated

your membership, but they may not be very representative, they are

certainly not representative of the parliamentary party, and they may

not be representative of the wider Labour voter, never mind the wider

electorate. The wonderful thing about political parties is, if you

look at most members of most political parties, they are a bit

like anoraks. They are not similar to ordinary people, and that is in

both parties. You are asking a more subtle question, whether we are

seeing entries into the party. -- entryism. And there has been, but

those people have been evicted from the party, and rightly so. I don't

want people to join the Labour Party because they can think they can

destabilise it. I want people to join because they want to fight this

rotten government, make sure the real issues that people are facing

in terms of their jobs and their livelihoods are tackled and get out

with me on the doorstep each weekend, knocking on doors and

talking to people, not just coming into exercise their vote once in a

while. Final question, which could be answered yes, know or don't know.

When we talk again at the Labour Party conference in Liverpool at the

end of September, will Mr Corbyn still be your leader? I don't know.

I haven't got a crystal ball to see the results of whatever negotiations

Jeremy now engages in. Thank you for joining us in these interesting

times. Well, earlier, Len McCluskey -

the General Secretary of the Unite union,

Labour's biggest donor - told Andrew Marr that Mr Corbyn

was not going anywhere, and that rebellious MPs seemed

to have been seduced Grandees being dragged out to be

part of this unedifying coup The reality is that this

has been a political Undermined, humiliated,

attacked in order to push him out. Jeremy Corbyn is made

of stronger stuff. and he has made it clear that

he will not step down. And Chris Bryant, who resigned

from the Shadow Cabinet Will there be a challenge to Mr

Corbyn now for the leadership? Well, there is a previous question. It

seems to me that there are millions of people who would like to be able

to vote for the Labour Party, but whilst we have this unsustainable

position, they feel it is impossible. And the unsustainability

of it is that we are a parliamentary democracy. So the first job of them

leader of the Labour Party is to lead the Labour Party and provide an

opposition. That requires 95 MPs on the front bench. Jeremy can't get

more than 20 or 25. That means the present situation is unsustainable.

The only person who can break that logjam is Jeremy. But the logjam

would be tested if someone challenged him. So let me come to

the second question. Will somebody challenging? Should they? I don't

want anyone to challenging yet, I want Jeremy to read the writing on

the wall. We have now had an opinion poll of Labour Party members which

shows that 44% of them want him to go now and another 10% want him to

go before the general election. We have had votes of no confidence not

only in the Parliamentary party, more than 80% of MPs, this has never

happened before, saying they have no confidence in his leadership. That

means he wouldn't be able to get on the ballot paper. There is a reason

why the rule book says you have to get a certain number of nominations

from the Parliamentary party, because if you haven't even got that

much support, how can you leave the Labour Party? Even if you are the

incumbent? People watching this programme who may not be political

will think that if you are the leader of a party and you challenge

for the leadership, natural justice says you should be allowed to defend

your position? But if you then return to the status quo with the

same unsustainable position, that doesn't resolve anything. That would

be your democratic decision. Well, because we are a Parliamentary

democracy, the leader of the Labour Party has to be able to unite the

Parliamentary party and recruit supporters to our cause. Amongst the

membership, I don't think Jeremy would win a contest. It was striking

to me how many people have got in touch with me from my local party.

Of course there are those who are ardent supporters, but others have

cut in touch to say I only joined the Labour Party to support Jeremy,

but this can't go on. He is not convincing me or my neighbours, and

they want him to go. You may be right, but there is only one way to

put that to the test and that is for someone to challenge Mr Corbyn.

Let's see how the dominoes fall. No, because that brings us to the same

position. It would be phenomenally bruising within the Labour Party to

have that contest. More effective would be for Jeremy to read the

writing on the wall. It must be eight metres high now. How can you

go forward with a situation as leader of the Labour Party, when

seven of your new members of your Shadow Cabinet, that you only

appointed this week as Corbyn supporters, want to come and see you

and you are so frightened that you can't even meet with them? I see the

logic of that. How long will you give him to read this writing on the

wall? It is up to Jeremy. He is a decent man. I can't imagine any

other leader of the Labour Party in our history, apart from perhaps

Ramsay MacDonald, who would not have taken on board the result of a

motion of no confidence. But he seems to be surrounded by people who

are telling him not to. We have heard that he was thinking of

standing down, but was talked out of it. We don't know the veracity of

that. But if he doesn't and decides to hang on, what do you do? Once you

are in the bunker and you have a bunker mentality, the game is up. I

am sure that in Jeremy's hard, he knows there is a danger that his

broken leadership will break the Labour Party. Parliament goes into

recess on the 21st of July. The Tories haven't got much time to go

further leadership process, and you haven't got much time. If he hangs

on until the parliamentary recess, he is there for the party

conference. No. We then also have the September session. But if Jeremy

is listening, I would just say, please, you are the only person who

can break this logjam. You could go out with dignity and the whole of

the Labour movement, and the millions who would love to vote for

the Labour Party at the time when we have a gastric Tory government which

might inflict even more harm to further -- a gastric Tory government

which might inflict further anti-austerity policies come if you

were to go now, those people would say you have done the honourable

thing. The Labour Party isn't going to go back to what it was ten years

ago. What did you make of what Barry Gardner was saying about a third

way, some kind of brokered arrangement, which I took to imply

need not mean Mr Corbyn continuing as leader? It didn't sound to me as

if Barry was supportive of Jeremy remaining as leader. Part of what

happens now must be Jeremy going, I think. But it is a problem if Jeremy

will not even see the seven people in his Shadow Cabinet that he

appointed this week who wanted to talk to him about his departing with

honour more or if he will not even have a meeting with the leader of

the deputy Labour Party, who also has a mandate. My local members the

other day, some of them want Jeremy to stay, but many were saying this

is now unsustainable. Jeremy must go. The party must treat him with

decency so that we can move forward and take the fight to the Tories. If

he doesn't go, or if the is a contest and he wins again, what

happens to the Labour Party? That would break the back of the Labour

Party on, I would argue, the vanity of those surrounding Jeremy. And I

think that would be a terrible shame, because there are people in

my constituency who will only get a decent chance in life, and for that

matter in other parts of the country who, after the Brexit vote last

week, wanted the Labour Party to come up with a strong argument about

how we could change the country for the better, and they will have

nowhere to turn. If you break the back of the party, it sounds

possible that the Labour Party would split. We are parliamentary

democracy. We were founded as the Labour Party because the trade

unions started losing battles through the courts and we wanted to

change the laws and to do that, you had to change the government. That

is what I still believe in. But the leader of the Labour Party has to

convince voters that we have a compelling vision for the future of

this country. And Jeremy is unable to do that. Many of his policies, I

would support. I want us to change the language around public

expenditure and the public sector. Many parts of the country feel no

elected and there are angry people who want to vote Labour, but are not

convinced -- they feel neglected. As things stand, even with chaos in the

governing party, you would need a miracle to win in 2020. I believe in

miracles. And the most important miracle is that Jeremy can break the

logjam. You still don't want to hit Ed Miliband smack you have changed

your mind on that. I don't. I wish the Labour Party were not where they

are, because I can do nothing for the Rhondda. May your God go with

you. It's coming up to 11:40,

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

in Scotland, who leave us now At the end of another

momentous week, welcome to the Sunday Politics

Wales. Peter Hain tells us Labour

is facing its worse crisis ever as the wrangling over

the leadership continues. We give the runners and riders

in the Tory leadership an outing. But first, in the middle

of the political turmoil at Westminster, whoever eventually

ends up as Prime Minister will have to sort out our

relationship with the EU. So what do some of the big thinkers

in Wales believe will, With rule books being re-written,

Cemlyn Davies has been The history of Britain's place

in Europe has been discussed thoroughly and extensively

in countless textbooks like these. As a politics student

here at Cardiff University, this is where I would come to find

out more about the UK's relationship with the EEC as it was, and then

with the EU, as it became. Now, it is time to write

another chapter, what will the students of tomorrow read

when they look back on this The treaty lays down

a procedure for a member state It is laid down in Article 50

of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union,

known as the Lisbon Treaty. What we expect the British

government to do now is to trigger the Article 50 procedure and to let

us know exactly what it is that it So, effectively,

the ball now is in the Effectively, that is

the situation we are in, yes. The European Commission says

it is in everyone's interests for the UK Government to act quickly

and invoke Article 50. But the outgoing Prime Minister says

that is a job he will Unless there is a government

with a new Prime Minister I think it is wise to wait

until it is clear who is able to do that and what the plan is once

the article is triggered. Once Article 50 is triggered the UK

will have two years to work out its

withdrawal from the EU. Sir Emyr Jones Parry

spent his career representing the UK A great deal of that work was done

in Brussels. You are on a glide

path to departure. Talking about the

negotiating position. It is inherently weak

because it isn't a negotiation which has

to come to a conclusion It is a process where at the end

of the day 27 countries will decide by qualified majority voting

what the future relationship for the United Kingdom should be

outside the EU. We've already seen what, for me,

is a shaming experience of the European Council meeting last

week and on the second day There may not be the capacity in

Whitehall to engage in such complex We know the civil service has faced

a lot of cuts in recent years, we know the European stream

of the civil service in particular Making sure there is that

capacity and that expertise, it will be absolutely crucial

otherwise we're going to be at risk of

negotiating a sub optimal deal. Much of the talk

so far has been about the possibility of protecting the

UK's place in the EU single market. It is not an option to stay

in the single market. It is fantasy because every EU

politician in the Lisbon Treaty, everything we know

about Europe says the four freedoms One of those being

freedom of movement. If you're in the single market

to have to respect The Norway deal, the

Switzerland deal, they all It is not on the agenda

unless you are going to betray the British

people on immigration. It would seem unlikely at the moment

you would be able to divorce those two

things but nevertheless, never underestimate the capacity

of Brussels to find a solution if that means getting

a good deal for the EU Last week's vote has also raised

countless constitutional questions Concerned that Wales

could soon be considered some sort of annex to England,

Carwyn Jones has said the federal arrangement may be

the best way forward. Meanwhile, in Scotland,

a second independence referendum remains highly likely according to

Nicola Sturgeon. Such a vote could be enough

justification to rerun the EU referendum, says one former

Welsh First Minister. The very serious and urgent prospect

of a second independence referendum,

which they would not trigger if they weren't sure

they were going to win it and they would wanting to see consistent

opinion polls at 60-40 in favour of independence, and the implications

of that for the relationship between Scotland and England

and Wales would make an awful lot of people say,

yes, we voted for Leave but we Now that is a serious prospect

we want a revote on this. With so many issues yet to be

resolved it seems no textbook can help us navigate our way

through these uncharted waters. No one knows what the next

chapter will look like but what is clear is the way forward,

whatever that is, won't be easy. While the European issue boils

away, spare a thought Most MPs have turned

on Jeremy Corbyn, but he says he has Lord Peter Hain held several cabinet

roles in the last government. He told me Labour needs to reconnect

with its core voters if it I was doing all my campaigning in

the South Wales Valleys including in my former constituency of Neath,

from the Gwent Valleys right through What was very clear is there

is a whole group of citizens in those Valleys who almost

to a person used to vote Labour, Left behind by globalisation,

by enormous change in post-industrialised societies

in which they are no proper jobs of the old kind, secure jobs,

jobs that gave people pride and the sense of status,

a sense of solidarity in large They were all trade

union members, they All that is dissolved and I have

watched it and felt it dissolve underneath me, as it were, in the 24

years that I was Neath's MP. What does Labour need

to do to reconnect with those voters who are turning

to Ukip as it seems? Not only to Ukip but also,

say in the Rhondda and other the Valley constituencies,

to Plaid Cymru as well. It is a very dangerous

moment for us. Remember, in the Welsh

elections in May we polled the lowest share of the vote

for Welsh Labour since 1918. Since the early days

of the Labour Party. What we have to do is reform,

refound our party in the communities but not through the old institutions

which have disappeared, the trade Does Carwyn Jones realise

there is this massive problem? When we have spoken to him

about the referendum results what comes back is,

they wanted to give the Tories a kicking and it was a matter

of timing, not much else really Does Carwyn Jones realise

the size of a problem you He doesn't seem to doing much

about it if I may say so. What matters now is the party

itself, local members, local council

candidates who are going to be fighting elections pretty soon

because things come around pretty quickly, that is May next year,

need to energise and realise we are in a completely different

political situation now. Of the kind that the Labour Party

in Wales has not faced if ever in its history,

since the time when we were first formed over a century ago,

where we have to rebuild You are talking about next

year's council elections. There is a possibility,

I am sure you will know, of a snap The danger there would be,

as you have already mentioned, Ukip may well sweep the board

in those Valleys communities where they came fairly close in last

year's general election. I don't see Ukip sweeping

the board at all. We stand a very good chance

as a Labour Party if we have a credible UK

leadership, if we do. We haven't had that under Jeremy

Corbyn. But only by a thorough

grassroots to the very top re-energising of the party and

reconnection with our voters because Welsh Labour and Labour cannot win

an early election unless we have Under Jeremy Corbyn your

membership has expanded. It is those precise members,

the Labour former members you were describing, who have

probably turned towards Jeremy Corbyn and would probably support

him again if there was a Jeremy, to his credit, has brought

a whole lot of people back into the party who had left us over

Iraq, disillusionment with Doesn't he deserve

a chance at an election? He has had nine months

and there is a question for Do they see him as the

future Prime Minister? Is he any good that the dispatch box

at Prime Minister's Questions, is he actually capable,

competent and able to do... The problem is that members

last summer voted for him as a leader, party members did

overwhelmingly, and he has that mandate that has to be recognised,

but voters on the ground in Valley communities, as I experienced myself

on the doorstep in recent weeks, although I knew it anyway,

don't see him as a leader and will If there is a working-class

voters our traditional base do not see him as a leader,

that is our problem. If the membership is

out of touch with our voting base then the voting base

will turn on us as a party We didn't do well on May

the 6th in the elections. We did very badly in Labour areas,

traditional Labour, core, working-class areas right

across the United Kingdom in last Thursday week's

European referendum. The neon lights are flashing

very brightly at the Labour Party as we decide how we're

going to move forward out of what is Is there a danger that

the party could split? You will know there will be a body

of support for Jeremy Corbyn within the party, there is no

support, or little support for him, Do you think they

could be a split that between the Corbynistas, as they're

known, and the rest in Parliament? Anybody who has organised splits

in the party whether to the left,

Arthur Scargill and others who left the Labour Party and set

up their own party, the Socialist Party, or whether to

the right, those who left to form the SDP and eventually allied

with the Liberal Democrats, It has never gone anywhere,

those splits. The SDP does not exist, the

Scargillite party is But if Jeremy Corbyn stayed

as leader and he has no support among the MPs

who are working with him day-to-day. People in the membership

are attacking MPs for being out of touch

with the membership, MPs are more in touch

with the voters than many In your decades in the Labour Party

have you ever been as concerned as you are now about the future

prospects of the Labour Party? I joined nearly 40 years ago and I

went through the early 1980s We're being attacked

from outside from the right as it were from Ukip,

and in the centre from the Tories and to our left, in Wales's case,

from Plaid Cymru and the Greens This is a major

crisis for the party. We can get out of it,

we can renew ourselves, we still have the agenda that

the majority of people would vote So, I think there is

all to gain if we set Re-routing ourselves

in our communities Then, I think, we can

win even including in There we are, Lord Peter Hain,

thank you very much for your time. Now away from Labour's

troubles, what do you make The five people who want to lead

the party could be pared down Anthony Pickles is a former Chief of

Staff for the Welsh Conservatives, while Shazia Awan is

a former candidate. Thank you both very much for coming

in this morning. What do we think in terms of who the next person should

be? I know you are both full Stephen Crabb. It isn't helpful! Let's talk

about, shouldn't it be a Leave campaign who leaves the party can

smack this is a leadership campaign we didn't think we were going to

have until 2019. Who would have thought if we had gone back 18

months ago, we would be in this? We don't know all policy platforms all

candidates are going to be stand on. We don't know the platforms come all

the policies. Yet it seems it is going to come down to who people

like in terms of how they are going to deal with the leaving the EU.

Should it be more than that? There is no denying we are in an era

of personality politics and we have to look at personalities like

Michael Gove who has done the ultimate betrayal as it were. What

he has done is much worse than what Ed Miliband did to his brother. Ed

Miliband made secrets of the fact he might run. Michael Gove had denied

it. That is troubling. Rachel Johnson has called Michael Gove a

political psychopath. His wife is pulling the strings. Do

you think that will work against him or do you want somebody who will

take on that comparison, somebody with the killer touch? Isn't that

the kind of steel you want? There's a lot of treachery in the

Conservative Party and there always has been. What he has done, was

Michael Gove has done since uncomfortably with grassroots

Conservatives. It sits uncomfortably with me and I am no Boris Johnson

fan. This is a betrayal of David Cameron and Boris Johnson. He got up

at 7am and decided to throw his hat in the ring. I don't like that level

of indecision. He upset the teachers when he was Education Secretary. He

isn't a likeable person, he doesn't understand he doesn't have the

same... He can't connect with people like Stephen Crabb can. We have got

to be careful this doesn't turn out to be a beauty parade. Michael Gove

would not win that! Wien in a time of political importance for the

country, and bringing together social divisions we are seeing. The

debate has got to happen, we've got to look at the issues and who will

be best place to be leader of the party and Prime Minister. That is

what the voters about. We have got to be careful we will slightly awake

from playing the man not the ball. Is Theresa May unstoppable? I don't

think so. MPs be taking standings across the week. There will be a lot

of tearoom meetings where they listen to what each candidate is

promising. When they get a Thursday, there will be the final ballot and

the ballot of the membership which will close on the 9th of September

stop one of the things I guess the referendum campaign highlighted, if

it was needed, this massive chasm between those who want to leave and

those who want to remain. The campaign didn't help that drift.

It's made much wider. What is the big challenge to unite those both

sides? I was very much for Remain. A lot of

my friends voted for Brexit. For me, I look at the Welsh Conservative

Party and then look at their board, they've got one woman. They have

never had any ethnic minorities on the board. Their board is not

reflective of modern Wales Britain. In the Conservative Party in Wales

they have never elected a female MP from Wales in a Welsh constituency.

We are over half the population and there are problems in the

Conservative Party in Wales need be sorted out. Even crab is the man who

may be able to address those. You wrote a couple of months back and

article in one of the political magazines you were left in tears

after one of your hand that selections in Wales. Why? What went

on? IME tough cookie, it takes a lot to make me shed a tear and I've

never shed a tear ever again for anything that has happened with the

Conservatives. It was an issue with the selection. I had a really good

group of people around me. I was asked on May view is of the British

Raj. As an ethnic minority, that is deeply inappropriate. BS poster ask

each candidate the same thing. I was asked what my vote was fast my

opinion was on back policemen and what might... The need to address

that. You're somebody who has got a good novice of the party in Wales.

Do you recognise this? I'm really sorry to hear that. Then it's going

to be changes. I know Jonathan Evans, chairman of the Conservatives

is reviewing the outcome of the Assembly election. Andrew RT Davies

is working with him closely on that. We will see structural changes to

the way the party operates in Wales and that is right. Going back to the

Parliamentary elements of this, you say some of your friends voted for

Leave. In terms of the MPs, the accusations that were thrown around

of lies and misleading of all kinds of things, that is not going to be

easy to kiss and make up on? This campaign has got really dirty. It is

really uncomfortable. Although I am backing Stephen Crabb, I think

Theresa May will potentially do this became our next leader. She has

stood up against a lot of difficult issues. She stood up against Police

Federation when they told that she couldn't deport Abu Qatada. She flew

to Jordan and got home deported. I like the fact when she was doing her

speech and in the week she said, I am not one for gossip or tooling the

TV studios, I want to get the job done. As a proud feminist I quite

liked the idea of Theresa May as Prime Minister. Hillary Clinton as

president, and the Merkel in Germany. You could be saying let's

have an all woman ticket. And select some Flamini is a loose cannon. Her

reaction on the Brexit was quite vocal. I get a she is police that

she misjudged the mood. The BBC journalist looked close to tears.

Theresa May has said she was set up a new Department to look at how we

exit the EU. We got a lot of time left but should there be a general

election? Whoever wins this contest will be Prime Minister and will have

his or her own policies to put through. A lot of the candidates

have ruled that out. You've got a look at the situation we're in into

mass of market stability. -- in terms. We've got legislation in

Parliament. That is not say that couldn't be changed or amended that

it would a consensus to do that. The Prime Minister will want to get

their feet under the desk at Number 10, they will want to look at other

Brexit because she shows are looking at is that those conversations.

Don't forget you follow all next week's resignations,

is there anyone left? on Twitter.

We're @walespolitics, but for now that's all from me.

Diolch am wylio, thanks for watching, time to go back to Andrew.

you have heard him loud and clear. I hope you are reported to Theresa

May. That's all we have time for.

Back to Andrew. Let's return to Labour's travails

now, and we're joined now from Hull by the former deputy leader

of the Labour Party, John Prescott. Earlier in this programme am a Barry

Gardiner, a member of the Shadow Cabinet, said that what was needed

was an honest broker to resolve the issue between Mr Corbyn and the

parliamentary party and the party in the country. He named you as a

potential honest broker. Are you up for it? I'm amazed. He twists and

turns every 24 hours. And all of a sudden, when I appear on your

programme, I am told I am to be the honest broker. There is no doubt

that I love my party, the Labour Party. I would always do whatever

was helpful. But simply because I had a few negotiating with is with

Gordon and Tony, it's not an easy proposition. You have to have the

will, and the Will this time must be, can we avoid the disaster we are

heading to and the talk of civil war and separate parties? You can't have

that. We must do everything to stop it. Is that a note to being honest

broker? You can take on a thing from that. I am just amazed to hear it.

It wouldn't just be one person, it would have to be a group of people

are thinking about how you deal with the real problems. The MPs have

concerns about selections which they have been that and with. There is

concern about what the negotiating position will be an about the

leadership. When I listen to the programmes again, Neil Kinnock and

others, whether you can go ahead without an election. I am a believer

and I fought hard for one member, one vote to involve the ordinary

members. That is why I persuaded people to vote for Jeremy, let the

party make the decision. I didn't vote for him. I didn't think he was

the leader I wanted. But the party did speak. What has changed now is

one member, one vote. The Parliamentary party has its

position. It used to originally elect the leader. We changed that

and went out to the members. Surely if you want an election, use the

proper procedure, get the names of the MPs for the nominations and have

an election. I hope we don't. I hope Angela and Owen Smith don't go into

an election, because that will take the fight closer to civil war. If Mr

Corbyn is challenged, is it your view that as the incumbent, as the

existing leader of the Labour Party, he has a right to be on the ballot

paper automatically? I hear what the lawyers they about that. I say this.

If you want to challenge the leader of the Labour Party, then you get

the names of the MPs and a nomination list and have a vote. But

since he is the incumbent, and if he is being challenged rather than

stepping down, whatever the lawyers say, would he not have a right to be

on the ballot paper? I believe if he can get sufficient names from the

PLP, which is the rule under our situation, then he is entitled to be

on it. The argument as to whether because he was the leader before is

a legal one, personally, if you are going to have an election, and I

hope we don't, that is the only way to sort it out. Otherwise you have a

divided party. So he would still need to get the names as well. Those

are the rules we have. But why haven't the names being put up

before now? On this occasion, they hoped they could shake him down.

They hoped he would resign voluntarily. I think many MPs were

convinced that was the road forward. Well, it hasn't turned out that way

and the man intends to stand in the election. In my view, follow the

processes of the party and get the names of supporters to enter the

list. If he is not challenged and remains as leader of the Labour

Party, what evidence is there that he will get better at the job? Well,

I didn't vote for Jeremy for some of these reasons. From when he started

to now, he has been improving. But I do accept that a lot of people are

not convinced. He doesn't have the pension you sometimes need. I scream

and shout, as you know, from time to time. They don't doubt that he

believes what he is saying, but a leader has to reach across the

party. I don't think Jeremy has done that. There are people in the party

who have declared war on him from the first day of his election, let's

be honest. He has got to improve. The party has to recognise the road

it has embarked upon, or the PLP. And we need to prevent civil war. It

would be disastrous for us. I sat in the Labour Party when it was the SDP

and they put us out for 18 years. Is that what we want again? Is that our

answer to the people screaming out to tackle this Tory government?

Follow the constitution. Have an election if you have to, although I

hope we don't have to. I hope Angela and Owen will not stand. I tried to

advise a week ago to take more time to think about it. I think the MPs

should go away and think about it over the holiday and come back and

remember that the party once asked to resent a good case against this

Tory government, or people will suffer. We cannot stand on the side,

wringing our hands. Play it together. I understand that rallying

call, but if there isn't an election or if there is but Mr Corbyn remains

as leader, surely the situation is a leader who doesn't have the

confidence of 80% of the parliamentary party. That is not

sustainable. I understand that and it is a proper question. But

listening to all the arguments over the last few weeks and in the PLP, I

wonder if every MP would feel the same if we embarked upon a new

party, isolating itself from the membership. If they do that, I

wonder if you would keep the same vote. MPs have to look at themselves

and say, let us get behind the guy or get rid of him, but get rid of

him in the proper way. Most thought he would resign. It hasn't happened,

so let's think through the consequences and avoid that civil

war and deserting our own people in fighting against Tories. You wrote

this morning that the last time Labour split, the gang of four in

the 1980s, you ended up in opposition for 18 years. When you

look at the situation at the moment, it is possible that split or

un-split, if things continue the way they do, you would be in opposition

for 18 years. That is a possibility. There are misconceptions people had.

Many in the PLP assumed this man should go. OK, they expressed their

opinion. But they thought he would just go quietly. That hasn't

happened. If you go along this road and have another election, we are

embarking upon those who are already talking about a separate PLP party,

separated from the members. Blimey, think twice before you go down that

road. We now it will be four years before the next election. Let's have

more common sense. Remember, it's a whole party. One final question, not

wishing to make you more gloomy. Isn't there a chance of things

getting worse before they get better? We have the Chilcot report

coming on Wednesday and we are being told that a number of leading Labour

people, perhaps even Mr Corbyn himself, will brand Tony Blair is a

war criminal. That can only make things worse, can't it? I agree. It

will make it worse, whatever they say. That is more the reason why

bitter division in the PLP can only be made worse by angry statements

about Iraq. We got it wrong on Iraq. Most people now recognise that, and

a terrible price was paid. I cannot absolve myself from that. I sat in

that cabinet. We can have a proper debate, but keep it less personal.

Let's learn the lessons and avoid such a terrible situation, although

frankly, we have been in other wars since then with the same feeling

prevailing. John Prescott, thank you for being with us today.

Helen, what is happening? The one thing I was missing there is a plan

for what happens next. It is unlikely that people who have exited

the Shadow Cabinet are going to go back into it. So if you are a Jeremy

Corbyn supporter, what do you want? If you accept that there is no way,

and that is what the negotiations are about, could you have an

automatic place on the next ballot or would you have an agreement that

someone like Clive Lewis would get onto next ballot? That would require

Jeremy Corbyn to stand down. Yes, so if Corbyn stands again, it looks

like he would win again with the members and there would be such a

loss of hatred that the idea of anyone who ran against him that it

would splinter the party. Chris Bryant was saying he didn't think it

was a shoe in order that he would necessarily win with the members

again. That is because there is polling that shows that support for

Corbyn has slid backward. The polls put him against the other likely

challengers and he beat all of them, but there was a sense in the vote

that there were some who really wanted Jeremy Corbyn, but there were

some who just didn't like the others and wanted something different. If

there were a plausible person who was not Corbyn, they might go for

that person. It was interesting that Don Prescott said that even if you

are the incumbent -- John Prescott said that even if you are the income

-- incumbent, you need the requisite number of MPs. That is hugely

debated at the moment. It might go to the courts. That is all Labour

bid now, for the Labour to be involved. They are between a rock

and a hard place. Whether it is Clive Lewis or John Donald rather

than Jeremy Corbyn versus Angela Eagle or whoever, the two tribes are

now so far away from each other that the rubber band of the Labour Party

has broken. We are now looking at two political parties eventually. It

may take three months or three years, but I cannot see how those

two wings can reconcile themselves. If Tom is right, the battle is who

takes possession of the Labour brand. As a brand, it is more

powerful than the conservative brand in some ways. And who has that brand

automatically get at least 20% of the votes. It comes with the name.

It does, but what is the brand? That is what goes to the heart of what

this debate is about. There are a couple of other points. All credit

to John Prescott for at least acknowledging that if this goes on,

Labour could be out for another 18 years. But what about these 40 MPs

who are propping up Corbyn at the moment? I don't think enough

scrutiny is being given to them. At the end of the day, if they

haemorrhaged away, Corbyn would have nobody left. I can't understand why

very experienced senior figures like Andy Burnham are still helping him.

That was the point Chris Bryant was making. Some of them apparently

tried very hard to resign last week or tell Jeremy Corbyn they would if

he didn't go, but they are now incapable of resigning cos he will

not see them. There is a parallel to Article 50, which is Jeremy Corbyn's

own article 50. As soon he stands down, he loses a lot of his

bargaining ability. But what is the mood on the left of the Labour

Party? Is it to stick it out with Jeremy Corbyn, or is it to accept

that that is not working and get someone else from a more credible

left-wing leader into place? My sense is that it is fracturing. You

will end up with a rump of people who just want Jeremy Corbyn, they

don't care about anything else. They joined to vote for him and they will

leave the party when he goes. But there is a bigger group of people

who want somebody who they feel is authentically left wing, but they

are not wedded to it being Corbyn. That is what is changing. There has

been bleeding of support from Corbyn himself. But also, the extent to

which Corbyn is being propped up by a few figures, I am hearing that he

wants to go but is being forced to stay. Do we know if that is true?

People around him are saying, if you go, Alec experiment about this part

of the party being in charge will be destroyed. Do you agree with that? I

wonder. If you are the leader of a political party and you want to go,

you go. Every time Jeremy Corbyn turns up at a rally in Parliamentary

's -- Parliament Square with thousands screaming for him, it

makes him feel good and gives him hope. It makes him think that, I

know it looks bad, but there are still people who love me. There is

also a genuine principle thing, which is that he was elected by

people who were not represent by the Labour Party as it was, and he feels

a sense of responsibility to them. And with Chilcot coming out on

Wednesday morning, it can only make it worse. Absolutely. There is a lot

of speculation at Westminster that Jeremy Corbyn is only holding on

until then so that he can stand up in the House of Commons and say that

Tony Blair should be tried for war crimes. Possibly, he wants his big

moment and will disappear after that. Or he may get reinvigorated by

it. This is fascinating. All those people who are saying Jeremy should

go, he was the position to Tony Blair within his own party -- he was

the opposition. What are we going to learn from Chilcot? That Tony Blair

got it wrong? They're zealots on both sides who will want to fight

this out. Whether we learn anything or not is another matter. I suggest

it is fuel on the Labour fire. But it doesn't change the positions we

know will be confirmed. But if the leader of the Labour opposition

calls on a former neighbour Prime Minister to be treated as a war

criminal, that is history in anybody's books. That is one thing

keeping the Labour Party avoided, the mistakes over Iraq. People are

in one camp or the other. We shall leave it there.

The Daily Politics is on all next week on BBC Two.

I'm back here next Sunday at 11am on BBC One.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.