18/03/2018 Sunday Politics Wales


18/03/2018

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LineFromTo

Morning, everyone, and welcome

to the Sunday Politics.

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I'm Sarah Smith.

will provide your essential briefing

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on everything that's moving

and shaking in the

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world of politics.

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The Foreign Secretary accuses Russia

of "smug sarcasm, denial,

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obfuscation and delay" in relation

to the Salisbury poisoning case.

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As the diplomatic dispute continues,

where will this crisis go next?

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Police launch a murder

inquiry in to the death

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of another Russian exile.

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We speak to the Chair of

the Home Affairs Select Committee.

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Should transgender women be included

on Labour's all-women short lists?

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The party postpones

a final decision.

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While a government consultation

on changing the law

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appears to be on hold.

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Has the debate on transgender

rights become toxic?

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Also coming up:

The ups and downs of two years as

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Welsh secretary, and market in your

diaries. Another devolution landmark

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on the way.

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to make sense of all the big

stories:

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Matt Zarb-Cousin, Isabel Oakeshott

and

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Now, Russia's Vladimir Putin has

already been out this

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morning to cast his vote

in the Presidential elections.

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We'll be expecting the result

in the Presidential elections.

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but you can probably guess

who the frontrunner is.

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It comes at the end of a week

in which UK-Russia relations turned

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positively sub-zero.

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President Putin.

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President Putin.

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Is Russia behind the poisoning

of Sergei Skripal?

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This week the finger of blame

for the Salisbury attack was

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pointed firmly in one direction.

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what actually happened

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there and then we'll talk about it.

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A deadline imposed by

the British government

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calling on the Russians to provide

answers came and went.

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The Prime Minister headed

to the Commons to update MPs.

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They have treated the use

of a military grade nerve agent

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in Europe with sarcasm,

contempt and defiance.

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The only conclusion, she declared,

was that the Russian state

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was responsible for the nerve agent

attack on the Russian double agent

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Sergei Skripal and his

daughter Yulia.

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23 Russian diplomats based

here accused of being spies are to

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be kicked out of the country.

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Moscow responded by

expelling 23 British

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embassy staff.

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UK-Russia relations are well

and truly in the deep freeze.

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The Prime Minister's

response to the crisis has

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won her some new fans.

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Hello.

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She got flowers and fist bumps

in Salisbury on Thursday.

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The Defence Secretary had his own

idiosyncratic message for Moscow.

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Frankly, Russia should go

away, it should shut up.

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Go away, it should shut up.

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The Foreign Secretary

escalated the row by going

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further and directly accusing

Vladimir Putin of personally

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ordering the poisoning.

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Our quarrel is with Putin's

Kremlin and with his

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decision, and we think it

overwhelmingly likely that it was

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his decision, to direct

the use of a nerve agent.

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Convention dictates

that parties often come

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together on major foreign policy

issues but Jeremy Corbyn is not a

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conventional politician.

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How has she responded to the Russian

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government's request for a sample

of the agent used in the Salisbury

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attack to run its own tests?

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Shameful!

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That did not go down

too well with some

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of his own MPs who tabled a motion

expressing their support for the

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Prime Minister's response.

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But Mr Corbyn held

his line, arguing in

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Friday's Guardian that we ought not

to discount the possibility that

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Russian mafia gangs could have

carried out the attack.

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Labour frontbenchers

not exactly been

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toeing that line.

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We fully support the Government's

action because we

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hold Russia responsible.

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There is no alternative

explanation other than

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that responsibility

lies with Russia.

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The US, France and Germany issued

a joint statement of support

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for the UK.

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It's a very sad situation.

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It certainly looks like

the Russians were behind it.

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Something that should

never ever happen.

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Today is election day in Russia.

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And this crisis seems unlikely

to hurt Putin's chances of

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re-election as Russia's President.

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So to pick up some of that news

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So to pick up some of that news

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Lucy, later this week the National

Security Council will meet to talk

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about what further action the UK

Government Meite, they briefed the

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about what further action the UK

BBC there is more in the locker,

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that was the phrase the useful

support any idea what they might do

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next?

There is a whole suite of

options available to the government,

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the idea of clamp-down on visas for

dubious Russian businessmen and

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dubious Russian businessmen and

their allies wanting to travel to

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the UK, there is talk on pulling the

the UK, there is talk on pulling the

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plug on RTE, the Kremlin backed

plug on RTE, the Kremlin backed

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broadcaster with Ruth Davidson

calling for that they. The most

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important action the government

could take is on the wealth, the

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Kremlin gold, and money

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could take is on the wealth, the

around the UK invested here by

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Russian oligarchs are linked to the

Kremlin.

Boss of people from Russian

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politician stomach opposition

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Kremlin.

Boss of people from Russian

politicians who think would be the

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most effective route. That's what

Labour are calling for and

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most effective route. That's what

action the government will go in.

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These are quite short-term measures.

These are quite short-term measures.

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What we're looking on with Russia is

a much wider, long-term problem.

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What a lot of people

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a much wider, long-term problem.

circles talk about is a more

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asymmetrical response,

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circles talk about is a more

than in addition to the measures

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Lucy has articulated, you need to

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than in addition to the measures

look at the whole suite of things in

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terms of the disinformation campaign

that Russia puts out, we need to

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that Russia puts out, we need to

look at where we can niggle

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that Russia puts out, we need to

by supporting Ukraine a bit,

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supporting states like Azerbaijan

and a much more hybrid response, I

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think.

Matt Zarb-Cousin

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and a much more hybrid response, I

has been a lot of discussion

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and a much more hybrid response, I

Jeremy Corbyn's response to this

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this week. I'm interested, you know

him well, give us an insight

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this week. I'm interested, you know

what he is thinking. He supports the

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Government's actions while not being

sure about the conclusion that the

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Russian state was responsible. Why

support what

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Russian state was responsible. Why

don't support the conclusion?

I

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think the Russian

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don't support the conclusion?

I

and the Labour Party recognises

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and the Labour Party recognises

that. I think we all agree that it

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isn't a proportionate response, it

goes nowhere near far enough if the

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Russian state is culpable, to just

expel 23 diplomats and say to the

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Royal family they are not going to

Royal family they are not going to

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the World Cup. So they have to find

out obviously if the Russian state

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is culpable, and then once they have

is culpable, and then once they have

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the evidence for that then obviously

build that international coalition

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where we can actually take

where we can actually take

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meaningful action, not these

meaningful action, not these

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tokenistic measures. Even closing

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meaningful action, not these

down Russia's Russia Today emboldens

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Putin, look at the West, they can

censor, he will say. What we really

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Putin, look at the West, they can

have to do is go after Putin's kind

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of circle. There is oligarchs here,

whether they are pro-or anti-Putin,

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who have been allowed to settle here

and stow away their

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who have been allowed to settle here

they have been affected by Putin. If

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they are then affected by

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they have been affected by Putin. If

we say you have to leave, then that

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is a very powerful coalition you

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we say you have to leave, then that

building against him.

But Jeremy

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Corbyn still isn't convinced that

the Russian state itself is

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responsible.

No, neither is the

government.

He wouldn't back these

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responsible.

No, neither is the

actions until they were proved.

It

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would be naive, it would

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actions until they were proved.

It

difficult to build an international

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coalition. Even the statement that

Germany France and the US

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coalition. Even the statement that

the joint statement, said the nerve

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the joint statement, said the nerve

agent was of a type developed by

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the joint statement, said the nerve

Russia, not that it was developed by

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Russia. It looks increasingly likely

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Russia, not that it was developed by

that that nerve agent came

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Russia, not that it was developed by

Russia and Russia have lost control

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of it, or have used it maliciously,

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Russia and Russia have lost control

but we don't know that yet and it's

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very difficult to take action until

very difficult to take action until

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we do.

There is a kind of false

dichotomy here in

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we do.

There is a kind of false

somehow elements of Russian Mafia

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might be responsible. Welcome

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somehow elements of Russian Mafia

potentially they could be, but the

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somehow elements of Russian Mafia

idea that the Russian Mafia

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some way completely distinct from

idea that the Russian Mafia

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some way completely distinct from

the Kremlin is a misunderstanding.

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some way completely distinct from

In a sense, the Russian Mafia is in

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extra typically linked to

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In a sense, the Russian Mafia is in

Kremlin. They are a sort of

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Kremlin. They are a sort of

paramilitary wing of the Kremlin so

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it is a false dichotomy.

Lucy,

it is a false dichotomy.

Lucy,

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Jeremy Corbyn has taken a lot

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it is a false dichotomy.

Lucy,

flak for his response this week.

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it is a false dichotomy.

Lucy,

Isn't it legitimate to be asking

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these questions when, as Matt says,

even the French, US and German

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governments don't seem this --

convinced this is state directed?

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convinced this is state directed?

Early in the week we saw some level

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of prevarication by Paris, Berlin

of prevarication by Paris, Berlin

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and Washington and that has firmed

up a lot. I think the quite

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unprecedented international joint

statement put out by those allies

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and the UK goes a lot further than

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statement put out by those allies

you say, Matt. I don't think it's as

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equivocal as perhaps

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you say, Matt. I don't think it's as

Some of the

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you say, Matt. I don't think it's as

asks will kind of strike a chord

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with much of the public. I think, in

particular, raising questions about

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the intelligence and exactly what is

known is something that

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the intelligence and exactly what is

be thinking about in light of the

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2003 Iraq War and some of the

evidence being politically sexed up,

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people want to know that that's not

people want to know that that's not

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the case here.

Briefly.

We don't

know exactly how much Jeremy Corbyn

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had access to in terms of

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know exactly how much Jeremy Corbyn

be that the government... Boris

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Johnson and the Defence Secretary

Gavin Williamson have gone much

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Gavin Williamson have gone much

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further and said... Boris Johnson

said it is Putin.

Overwhelmingly

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likely.

Williamson said they should

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said it is Putin.

Overwhelmingly

shut up and go away, or whatever he

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said. That suggests to me they are

either going off message or they

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either going off message or they

have seen more evidence that perhaps

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either going off message or they

Corbyn has not seen.

These are

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either going off message or they

questions we will explore throughout

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the show and if you stay with

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questions we will explore throughout

will talk to you throughout the

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programme.

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Well, let's stick with this story

because the Foreign Secretary has

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been speaking on the Andrew

Marr Show this morning.

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He was asked how the Government

could be certain that the Russian

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Government was responsible

for the attack.

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We actually have evidence within the

last ten years that

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We actually have evidence within the

only been investigating the delivery

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of nerve agents for the purposes of

assassination, but has also been

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creating and stockpiling Novichok.

To the best of our knowledge, this

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is a Russian-made nerve agent that

falls within the category Novichok,

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made only by Russia.

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I'm joined now by the Foreign Office

Minister Sir Alan Duncan.

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Thank you for talking to us this

morning. Russia have responded, as

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you know, to our expansion --

expulsion of 23 Russian diplomats by

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closing the consulate in St

Petersburg. Is there a second phase

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of government action that

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Petersburg. Is there a second phase

to be reintroduced in order to take

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Petersburg. Is there a second phase

this further?

We have lots of

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options. But this isn't just about

counting heads. This is really about

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options. But this isn't just about

making clear to the world

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options. But this isn't just about

of the great achievements of the

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world since the Second World

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of the great achievements of the

which is a convention to ban

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which is a convention to ban

chemical weapons, has been

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which is a convention to ban

And it is clearly traceable back to

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a military grade nerve agent of

Russian origin. We said

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a military grade nerve agent of

Russians either you did it directly

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or you have lost control of this,

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Russians either you did it directly

tell us which. They basically just

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tell us which. They basically just

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stuck their tongue out at us. Their

irresponsible response to this

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points ever more to them as having

done this, and so the response that

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we have done I think is

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done this, and so the response that

proportionate. Yes, they

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done this, and so the response that

responded back. But what

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done this, and so the response that

more than anything else is not that

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we now go into some kind of

tit-for-tat stuff by accounting

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exact numbers and things like that,

is that we actually corral the whole

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world to realise that Russia

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is that we actually corral the whole

totally out of order here and that

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the Chemical Weapons Convention has

been violated in a way that could do

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enormous damage to the world in any

enormous damage to the world in any

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country this happens to happen in,

country this happens to happen in,

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in this case the UK, and that

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country this happens to happen in,

what we will do.

You are calling for

0:12:410:12:42

what we will do.

You are calling for

a concerted international action,

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what would that look like?

We are

already very grateful to the very

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clear response we have had from a

lot of countries. I

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clear response we have had from a

Balkans over the weekend with

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Balkans over the weekend with

countries like Macedonia and Kosovo,

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and they were very, very clear in

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countries like Macedonia and Kosovo,

their condemnation of this, because

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they themselves are countries which

suffer from wider Russian

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interference. But we have the EU

foreign ministers meeting tomorrow,

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interference. But we have the EU

they will be a Prime Minister level

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March European Council on Friday, we

have already had an open discussion

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have already had an open discussion

in the UN at which the Russian

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representative cut a very, very

lonely figure, and this is clearly a

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representative cut a very, very

Russian violation of the Chemical

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Weapons Convention and we will

cooperate with the Organisation for

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the Prohibition of Chemical

0:13:290:13:31

cooperate with the Organisation for

to prove even further what we

0:13:310:13:33

cooperate with the Organisation for

to be the case.

When it comes to

0:13:330:13:35

international action, a former UK

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to be the case.

When it comes to

ambassador to Russia, agrees with

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to be the case.

When it comes to

you that we need to take action

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along with others and says the

sanctions imposed by the EU after

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Crimea 2014 surprise

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sanctions imposed by the EU after

continue to have an impact because

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they were EU wide, but went on to

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continue to have an impact because

say Brexit has made Britain's task

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harder in appealing for EU

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say Brexit has made Britain's task

solidarity this week and the kind of

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international action you are looking

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solidarity this week and the kind of

for.

I think that is total nonsense,

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for.

I think that is total nonsense,

Brexit doesn't have an impact on

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this and we are still part of the EU

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and we operate EU sanctions

collaboratively and we're passing

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collaboratively and we're

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legislation through the House of

Commons which will give us

0:14:120:14:15

autonomous actions regime following

the departure from the EU, and we

0:14:150:14:18

will include in that what I hope

will be a firm

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will include in that what I hope

statement from the House of Commons

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that the Magnitsky clause, as people

have been campaigning for, will be

0:14:260:14:30

included in the sanctions and

anti-money-laundering Bill. And the

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passage of this bill predated the

Salisbury incident, has always been

0:14:340:14:41

something we wanted the whole of the

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Salisbury incident, has always been

House of Commons today,

0:14:440:14:45

Salisbury incident, has always been

something in a committee during

0:14:450:14:45

passage of the bill.

Labour tried to

introduce an amendment to that

0:14:450:14:51

passage of the bill.

Labour tried to

with the Magnitsky clause and you

0:14:510:14:51

wear minister in the Bill committee

that rejected those amendments two

0:14:510:14:54

weeks ago. -- you wear minister.

I

answer the question before you ask

0:14:540:15:01

the question, which is we wanted it

to be done on the whole floor of the

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house and in the phrasing of the

amendment it wasn't consistent with

0:15:040:15:09

some of the other parts

0:15:090:15:12

amendment it wasn't consistent with

-- you were a minister. We have an

0:15:120:15:14

amendment it wasn't consistent with

understanding that we hope will be a

0:15:140:15:15

cross-party

0:15:150:15:18

understanding that we hope will be a

a clear message to the world that

0:15:180:15:18

understanding that we hope will be a

the House of Commons, along with

0:15:180:15:19

countries who have done it already,

will be aligned with the Magnitsky

0:15:190:15:24

proposal, which campaigners

0:15:240:15:30

The Magnitsky powers would allow you

to take actions against individuals

0:15:300:15:36

guilty of gross human rights

0:15:360:15:39

to take actions against individuals

violations. That doesn't allow you

0:15:390:15:40

to attack the money of Putin allies

to attack the money of Putin allies

0:15:400:15:45

unless you can find them guilty of

0:15:450:15:47

to attack the money of Putin allies

gross human rights violations so it

0:15:470:15:49

to attack the money of Putin allies

wouldn't really allow you

0:15:490:15:52

to attack the money of Putin allies

to this attack, would it?

Again, I'm

0:15:520:15:53

afraid you're totally wrong and

don't understand the wording of

0:15:530:15:57

afraid you're totally wrong and

bill because it is not only

0:15:570:15:59

afraid you're totally wrong and

human rights violations in the bill.

0:15:590:16:01

afraid you're totally wrong and

There are many purposes included

0:16:010:16:02

afraid you're totally wrong and

the list of things you can do under

0:16:020:16:04

the list of things you can do under

the legislation and it does include

0:16:040:16:06

what you have just described.

But

the powers the Government has

0:16:060:16:10

what you have just described.

But

already on going after things like

0:16:100:16:12

this, like unexplained wealth

orders, have been used only once

0:16:120:16:15

this, like unexplained wealth

since they were introduced. There

0:16:150:16:18

haven't been much evidence the

Government was serious

0:16:180:16:23

haven't been much evidence the

corrupt money brought in through

0:16:230:16:25

London.

That's

0:16:250:16:27

corrupt money brought in through

legislation has only recently come

0:16:270:16:27

in and of course it's not

0:16:270:16:29

legislation has only recently come

politicians who

0:16:290:16:31

legislation has only recently come

decisions. There's a distinction

0:16:310:16:32

between the liberal democracy in

which we live, where judges on

0:16:320:16:38

between the liberal democracy in

law take their course from

0:16:380:16:38

law take their course from

politicians. And what we think is

0:16:380:16:42

law take their course from

happening in Russia, which is not a

0:16:420:16:44

law take their course from

real democracy, we are looking at a

0:16:440:16:47

pretty odd election taking place

pretty odd election taking place

0:16:470:16:50

today where Vladimir Putin

0:16:500:16:52

pretty odd election taking place

undoubtedly be supposedly re-elected

0:16:520:16:52

for the fourth time. That is a deep

distinction between our values and

0:16:520:16:59

bears. One of the great values we

have seen in the world is the

0:16:590:17:02

creation of the chemical weapons

Convention. Jeremy Corbyn has always

0:17:020:17:07

been the great disarm and here we

have a violation of the ideological,

0:17:070:17:12

have a violation of the ideological,

the sort of principled convention

0:17:120:17:14

that has been built up over many

decades, violated in our

0:17:140:17:18

that has been built up over many

country, which is why I think many

0:17:180:17:20

country, which is why I think many

young people are disappointed with

0:17:200:17:25

his response.

Ben Wallace,

0:17:250:17:26

young people are disappointed with

security minister,

0:17:260:17:27

young people are disappointed with

allowed nasty individuals to come to

0:17:270:17:30

the City of London and launder

0:17:300:17:32

allowed nasty individuals to come to

illicit money. That sounds like an

0:17:320:17:34

allowed nasty individuals to come to

admission that until now

0:17:340:17:36

allowed nasty individuals to come to

Government hasn't been doing

0:17:360:17:37

allowed nasty individuals to come to

to tackle corrupt money in London.

I

0:17:370:17:41

allowed nasty individuals to come to

think we are amassing the powers to

0:17:410:17:42

tackle exactly the kind of issue he

has identified, and indeed Ben

0:17:420:17:48

Wallace is the security

0:17:480:17:50

has identified, and indeed Ben

has been supporting this, pressing

0:17:500:17:52

has been supporting this, pressing

for it and administering it from the

0:17:520:17:55

Home Office point of view. We

0:17:550:17:58

for it and administering it from the

to make a proper distinction though

0:17:580:17:59

to make a proper distinction though

without compromising

0:17:590:18:01

to make a proper distinction though

between those who are guilty and

0:18:010:18:03

to make a proper distinction though

those who are not. Not every

0:18:030:18:05

oligarch is guilty and not every

rich Russian is necessarily a crony

0:18:050:18:11

of Putin and someone who

0:18:110:18:14

rich Russian is necessarily a crony

subject to sanctions so we need to

0:18:140:18:15

approach this without compromising

our values. But there is something

0:18:150:18:19

our values. But there is something

much more important than this, what

0:18:190:18:21

really matters is the world needs to

0:18:210:18:24

much more important than this, what

realise that if we allow chemical

0:18:240:18:25

weapons to slip into use any more

that's happened now, we will live in

0:18:250:18:29

weapons to slip into use any more

a much more dangerous world and one

0:18:290:18:32

weapons to slip into use any more

which is tearing up the rule

0:18:320:18:36

weapons to slip into use any more

throwing away the chemical weapons

0:18:360:18:36

Convention which has been in place

for so many decades, indeed it

0:18:360:18:41

Convention which has been in place

one of the

0:18:410:18:43

Convention which has been in place

achievements of the post war world

0:18:430:18:44

achievements of the post war world

that we put this in place so we have

0:18:440:18:47

to the robust in pointing the finger

at Russia and

0:18:470:18:55

to the robust in pointing the finger

by the use of chemical weapons is

0:18:550:18:57

by the use of chemical weapons is

simply not acceptable.

Thank you for

0:18:570:19:00

Well, earlier this week the police

announced that they were launching

0:19:000:19:02

a murder inquiry in to the death

of another Russian businessman

0:19:020:19:04

living in Britain.

0:19:040:19:05

A pathologist's report says

Nikolai Glushkov died

0:19:050:19:07

of "compression to the neck"

after being found dead

0:19:070:19:10

at his home on Monday.

0:19:100:19:10

The Metropolitan Police say

there is no evidence to suggest

0:19:100:19:13

a link to the attempted murder

of Sergei and Yulia Skripal.

0:19:130:19:15

But the Home Office has announced it

will investigate a number

0:19:150:19:18

of other unexplained deaths

following the Skripal case.

0:19:180:19:20

Yvette Cooper is the Chair of

The Home Affairs Select Committee.

0:19:200:19:26

You specifically asked the Home

Secretary to investigate 14 other

0:19:290:19:33

deaths that you are worried may have

0:19:330:19:36

Secretary to investigate 14 other

had Russian involvement, do you have

0:19:360:19:38

much evidence for that?

My concern

is that any area where there are

0:19:380:19:43

much evidence for that?

My concern

allegations that there may have been

0:19:430:19:47

either Russian involvement or

suspicious circumstances that may

0:19:470:19:50

either Russian involvement or

need to be investigated should be,

0:19:500:19:52

either Russian involvement or

because I think we have to

0:19:520:19:54

either Russian involvement or

full facts. There was a BuzzFeed

0:19:540:19:55

investigation that made allegations

about 14 cases, there are other

0:19:550:20:01

investigation that made allegations

concerns raised about others.

0:20:010:20:03

investigation that made allegations

not for me to judge the individual

0:20:030:20:05

circumstances, my concern is these

cases, where there have been

0:20:050:20:11

circumstances, my concern is these

preliminary conclusions of suicide

0:20:110:20:12

or natural causes or accident, that

actually there may be further

0:20:120:20:17

evidence of more suspicious

circumstances, they should now be

0:20:170:20:21

reviewed by the Home

0:20:210:20:23

circumstances, they should now be

police.

The Home Office have said

0:20:230:20:24

they will do that but if you look at

the the case of someone who died in

0:20:240:20:32

2012, Surrey police says they will

not reinvestigate so will they be

0:20:320:20:38

2012, Surrey police says they will

able to cover new evidence?

I assume

0:20:380:20:39

able to cover new evidence?

I assume

the Home Office will assure there is

0:20:390:20:43

able to cover new evidence?

I assume

a review of all of these cases. The

0:20:430:20:44

Home Office Secretary will want to

0:20:440:20:46

a review of all of these cases. The

satisfy herself that every corner

0:20:460:20:48

has been looked into and

0:20:480:20:50

satisfy herself that every corner

been done properly and we get to the

0:20:500:20:53

satisfy herself that every corner

bottom of this. I do accept the

0:20:530:20:55

priority for them at

0:20:550:20:57

bottom of this. I do accept the

be this current investigation and

0:20:570:21:00

bottom of this. I do accept the

the current circumstances in

0:21:000:21:00

Salisbury and where those

investigations lead, but they will

0:21:000:21:05

need I think to follow up by

0:21:050:21:08

investigations lead, but they will

at these other cases as well.

So you

0:21:080:21:10

have any doubt that

0:21:100:21:13

at these other cases as well.

So you

Salisbury was directed by the

0:21:130:21:15

Russian state?

I share the

conclusions

0:21:150:21:19

Russian state?

I share the

and British government that it is

0:21:190:21:22

implausible the Russian state wasn't

0:21:220:21:25

and British government that it is

Jeremy Corbyn is wrong when he says

0:21:250:21:27

it is either the Russian state or a

chemical weapon that got

0:21:270:21:34

it is either the Russian state or a

control and into other people's

0:21:340:21:35

it is either the Russian state or a

hands?

We don't

0:21:350:21:37

it is either the Russian state or a

individuals caused the attack and

0:21:370:21:38

how the nerve agent was

0:21:380:21:41

individuals caused the attack and

the country, we also don't know

0:21:410:21:42

the country, we also don't know

which bit of the Russian state was

0:21:420:21:46

particularly involved, but I

0:21:460:21:47

which bit of the Russian state was

the clear evidence, the way in which

0:21:470:21:49

the Russian government has been

behaving since this happened really

0:21:490:21:55

is not the behaviour of a government

0:21:550:21:57

behaving since this happened really

that is saying we weren't involved

0:21:570:21:59

and we want to help get to the

bottom of this because we take it

0:21:590:22:03

seriously. This morning the Russian

Embassy has been tweeting

0:22:030:22:12

Embassy has been tweeting pictures

of Hercule Poirot.

So are you

0:22:140:22:21

embarrassed by Jeremy Corbyn saying

there isn't enough evidence to link

0:22:210:22:25

this to the Kremlin?

This morning

this to the Kremlin?

This morning

0:22:250:22:28

John McDonnell said we should

condemn the Russian government for

0:22:280:22:31

the way it's behaved on this, and

the way it's behaved on this, and

0:22:310:22:34

that the Russian government is

responsible, and I agreed with him,

0:22:340:22:37

and he went further than Theresa

0:22:370:22:40

responsible, and I agreed with him,

by pointing the finger at Putin,

0:22:400:22:44

something similar to what Boris

something similar to what Boris

0:22:440:22:46

Johnson has said, so I think there's

a recognition that even though

0:22:460:22:51

Johnson has said, so I think there's

don't know which individual

0:22:510:22:52

Johnson has said, so I think there's

delivered the nerve agent there is

0:22:520:22:54

responsibility here in the Russian

0:22:540:22:57

delivered the nerve agent there is

state and I think some part of the

0:22:570:22:59

security service is what we expect

as well.

It was clear in the House

0:22:590:23:03

of Commons this week there were

senior Labour MPs like yourself

0:23:030:23:08

uncomfortable with Jeremy Corbyn's

position. There's also been reports

0:23:080:23:13

uncomfortable with Jeremy Corbyn's

this has been seen as a watershed

0:23:130:23:16

moment by some moderate Labour MPs

wondering what they are doing in

0:23:160:23:20

Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party and

revived talk of a breakaway party,

0:23:200:23:24

is that something you have heard

about?

I think this is a load of

0:23:240:23:32

rubbish. I have not heard this so I

rubbish. I have not heard this so I

0:23:320:23:35

think this is in danger of

spiralling ever outwards and we are

0:23:350:23:42

also in danger of making this an

issue about domestic politics at a

0:23:420:23:44

also in danger of making this an

time when there is very

0:23:440:23:46

also in danger of making this an

international issues here that we

0:23:460:23:47

international issues here that we

should be focusing on and coming

0:23:470:23:49

together to focus on as well.

That's

0:23:490:23:51

should be focusing on and coming

why it becomes a domestic issue

0:23:510:23:53

why it becomes a domestic issue

because it's at times like this you

0:23:530:23:54

might expect the leader of

0:23:540:24:00

because it's at times like this you

opposition to back-up the Prime

0:24:000:24:01

Minister, you were clearly

uncomfortable with the way

0:24:010:24:03

Minister, you were clearly

not do that, so it has consequences

0:24:030:24:05

Minister, you were clearly

within the Labour Party.

As I

0:24:050:24:06

within the Labour Party.

As I

understand it, Jeremy has said that

0:24:060:24:09

the evidence points to wash, that

also he supports all of the measures

0:24:090:24:14

the evidence points to wash, that

and that's really

0:24:140:24:19

and that's really important that you

have unanimity about the actions

0:24:200:24:20

that need

0:24:200:24:23

have unanimity about the actions

for further action around the

0:24:230:24:25

economic sanctions. They understand

0:24:250:24:27

for further action around the

he wanted to wait for further

0:24:270:24:28

evidence before going further and

criticising the Russian government.

0:24:280:24:33

Obviously John McDonnell has

0:24:330:24:37

criticising the Russian government.

criticised the Russian government

0:24:370:24:37

today, but I'm not going to

criticise Jeremy for taking

0:24:370:24:41

today, but I'm not going to

slightly different view

0:24:410:24:42

today, but I'm not going to

think there's been too much

0:24:420:24:44

temperature in this and you have

heard people being called warmongers

0:24:440:24:47

for condemning the Russian state,

you've also heard people being

0:24:470:24:52

called appeasers for asking further

questions.

0:24:520:25:00

questions. None of that helps. We

are not talking about military

0:25:020:25:05

action, we are talking about

0:25:050:25:08

are not talking about military

I hope there can be unanimity about

0:25:080:25:09

what

0:25:090:25:11

Yvonne Cooper, thank you. I will

just pick up some of that with the

0:25:110:25:14

panel. Lucy Fisher, it was clear

listening to Yvette Cooper, and

0:25:140:25:19

Shami Chakrabarti, very much in the

Labour Party people who seemed to

0:25:190:25:24

Shami Chakrabarti, very much in the

at odds at the beginning of the week

0:25:240:25:24

at odds at the beginning of the week

as saying there is nothing to see

0:25:240:25:26

here, is that true?

I'm not entirely

0:25:260:25:32

as saying there is nothing to see

convinced, I think this has opened

0:25:320:25:34

as saying there is nothing to see

up old wounds in the Labour Party,

0:25:340:25:36

the front bench has been strained by

this response, and while we were

0:25:360:25:40

the front bench has been strained by

talking about how some of

0:25:400:25:43

the front bench has been strained by

questions he has asked are valid,

0:25:430:25:44

tonally I think the response has

0:25:440:25:46

questions he has asked are valid,

upset a lot of Labour MPs, including

0:25:460:25:50

those who have called for the

Commons to unequivocally condemn the

0:25:500:25:53

Russian state.

Matt Zarb Cousin,

Labour has been

0:25:530:26:08

Labour has been calling for -- the

0:26:080:26:10

Government have been calling for

Magnitsky clauses, exactly what

0:26:100:26:15

Government have been calling for

Jeremy Corbyn called forth. Were you

0:26:150:26:15

Jeremy Corbyn called forth. Were you

satisfied with what you heard from

0:26:150:26:20

from Alan Duncan?

No, they are

watered down compared to what Jeremy

0:26:200:26:23

Corbyn had in the manifesto in

0:26:230:26:28

watered down compared to what Jeremy

last election. I think there is an

0:26:280:26:28

agreement among the Labour Party now

0:26:280:26:31

last election. I think there is an

and the front bench particularly

0:26:310:26:33

last election. I think there is an

that the Russian state is culpable

0:26:330:26:34

last election. I think there is an

and that is shared across the house.

0:26:340:26:36

You are still couple books under the

chemicals weapons Convention if

0:26:360:26:42

You are still couple books under the

lose control of the nerve agent,

0:26:420:26:45

which is what

0:26:450:26:48

lose control of the nerve agent,

Conservative government is serious

0:26:480:26:50

lose control of the nerve agent,

about financial powers in order to

0:26:500:26:52

lose control of the nerve agent,

target corrupt money? David Cameron

0:26:520:26:53

said one of his great regrets is

that he never introduced me

0:26:530:26:57

Magnitsky powers, the Government say

they will go ahead with it, is it

0:26:570:27:02

powers they will use in a meaningful

way?

I think they are absolutely

0:27:020:27:08

way?

I think they are absolutely

serious. The national security

0:27:080:27:09

adviser said he understands this, as

does the intelligence minister Ben

0:27:090:27:14

Wallace, they have already used

these new powers about freezing the

0:27:140:27:19

assets on unexplained wealth. A

fairly new measure which has already

0:27:190:27:25

been implemented in at least one

case as I understand it. I want to

0:27:250:27:30

come back on your comments, you

0:27:300:27:31

case as I understand it. I want to

the Labour Party is singing as one,

0:27:310:27:34

I don't pick that

0:27:340:27:37

the Labour Party is singing as one,

rhetoric. I felt Yvette Cooper was

0:27:370:27:40

extraordinarily diplomatic, but

0:27:400:27:41

rhetoric. I felt Yvette Cooper was

trying to paper over serious cracks

0:27:410:27:44

within the Parliamentary party about

Labour's position on this. It is

0:27:440:27:49

clear Jeremy Corbyn doubts the

intelligence on it.

It is not the

0:27:490:27:53

intelligence he doubts, it is

0:27:530:27:55

intelligence on it.

It is not the

way the intelligence has been

0:27:550:27:57

interpreted by

0:27:570:28:00

way the intelligence has been

I'm talking about intelligence he

0:28:000:28:00

perhaps hasn't seen so we don't know

0:28:000:28:06

how much he has seen. Theresa May,

as Lucy's story showed this week,

0:28:060:28:08

hasn't necessarily shown the Leader

0:28:080:28:11

as Lucy's story showed this week,

of the Opposition and chief of staff

0:28:110:28:12

everything. It is the same as Iraq

in a sense. It is not the

0:28:120:28:17

everything. It is the same as Iraq

intelligence itself necessarily, it

0:28:170:28:20

everything. It is the same as Iraq

is how the Government uses the

0:28:200:28:20

intelligence, and that's when it

comes back to the nerve agent being

0:28:200:28:24

intelligence, and that's when it

of a type developed by Russia.

0:28:240:28:29

OK, talking of cracks in the Labour

OK, talking of cracks in the Labour

0:28:290:28:31

Party we have another

0:28:310:28:34

On Tuesday the Labour Party

were expected to rubber

0:28:340:28:36

stamp their support for transgender

women to be included

0:28:360:28:39

on all-women short lists.

0:28:390:28:40

But this programme has learned that

that announcement has been delayed

0:28:400:28:42

so that arguments on all sides

can be heard.

0:28:420:28:44

The rights of the transgender

community have also become part

0:28:440:28:47

of a wider conversation

in Westminster after the government

0:28:470:28:49

backed calls to simplify the legal

process to for someone

0:28:490:28:51

to change their gender.

0:28:510:28:52

Greg Dawson reports.

0:28:520:28:55

This is Heather Peto.

0:28:570:28:59

I've always known I'm a woman,

it's when I became a teenager that

0:28:590:29:03

I really sort of like felt

the pressure to be who I was.

0:29:030:29:06

And, at the next general election,

she wants to make political history.

0:29:060:29:11

I'd like to be one of the first

she wants to make political history.

0:29:110:29:15

But that ambition has

propelled her and others

0:29:150:29:17

to the centre of a significant row

in the Labour Party

0:29:170:29:20

after she was included

on an all women's short list

0:29:200:29:23

as a Parliamentary candidate.

0:29:230:29:29

I don't think it's an

0:29:290:29:30

I don't think it's an issue to be

honest. I think the local party

0:29:300:29:35

decides and the best candidates will

get through so I don't think

0:29:350:29:39

decides and the best candidates will

an issue. I think it's being made

0:29:390:29:43

decides and the best candidates will

issue by some people that are more

0:29:430:29:44

anti-transgender, but local people

0:29:440:29:45

issue by some people that are more

don't seem

0:29:450:29:50

onto all women's short lists

but that policy has recently

0:29:500:29:51

come under attack.

feminists who descended

0:29:510:29:55

on Parliament this week

for a meeting they titled

0:29:550:29:58

"transgender and the war on women".

0:29:580:30:04

They've been described

as transphobic, a label they reject.

0:30:050:30:08

I can see already there

are trans-identifying

0:30:080:30:10

men cynically use -

what I feel - are cynically

0:30:100:30:13

using those positions.

0:30:130:30:18

You've got Heather Peto who is

the trans-inclusionary officer

0:30:180:30:20

of the Labour Party,

he went on to an all

0:30:200:30:23

women's short list.

0:30:230:30:24

The fact that you are referencing

Heather as 'he' against her wishes

0:30:240:30:27

preferred pronouns.

0:30:290:30:34

Once we start using she for a man,

we are blurring the distinction.

0:30:340:30:37

Venice Allan is a Labour member

but those views got her suspended.

0:30:370:30:41

She knows what she says is offensive

to the trans community

0:30:410:30:44

but makes no apology for it.

0:30:440:30:49

I really do want to have this

conversation, like I say,

0:30:490:30:52

you don't have to agree with us

but you do have to listen to us.

0:30:520:30:56

Like the Labour Party, you know,

they're not listening.

0:30:560:30:58

I've tried to set up Momentum

events, Labour events, I've tried

0:30:580:31:01

to meet with Jeremy Corbyn

and other politicians.

0:31:010:31:04

Labour were supposed to formally

clarify their support for trans

0:31:040:31:10

women on all-women short

lists at a meeting at the

0:31:100:31:12

party's HQ this week.

would have triggered

0:31:120:31:16

the resignations of more

than 200 female members.

0:31:160:31:18

Then yesterday, Labour told us

that formal discussion

0:31:180:31:19

was delayed until June.

0:31:190:31:22

This is all a precursor to a much

wider political debate

0:31:230:31:27

going on with the Government

committing to update

0:31:270:31:29

the Gender Recognition Act.

0:31:290:31:31

As the Prime Minister has explained,

the changes would allow people

0:31:310:31:34

to self define their gender

without the need for

0:31:340:31:37

medical diagnosis.

0:31:370:31:39

We have set out plans to reform

the Gender Recognition Act,

0:31:390:31:42

streamlining and demedicalising

the process for changing gender,

0:31:420:31:45

because being trans is not

an illness and it shouldn't be

0:31:450:31:47

treated as such.

0:31:470:31:53

Since she made that speech

at the Pink Awards last October,

0:31:550:32:01

progress on those changes

to the Gender Recognition Act seems

0:32:010:32:04

to have slowed down.

0:32:040:32:09

I've asked the Government what's

going on and they just say in this

0:32:090:32:13

very short statement that

a consultation will be published

0:32:130:32:15

in due course, but no date given.

0:32:150:32:19

And our various requests to speak

to politicians both in favour

0:32:190:32:23

and opposed to these changes

were all turned down, which came

0:32:230:32:26

as little surprise to some.

politicians who have

0:32:260:32:30

questions about this,

who have doubts about it,

0:32:300:32:32

who don't dare express those doubts,

raise those questions,

0:32:320:32:38

because they are worried that

if they do they will be screamed at,

0:32:380:32:42

they will be accused of bigotry

and transphobia simply

0:32:420:32:44

for asking questions.

0:32:440:32:46

James Kirkup has written a number

of columns on the updates to the act

0:32:460:32:49

and isn't sure it's been

properly thought through.

0:32:490:32:51

There are questions about access

to safe spaces for women

0:32:510:32:56

in domestic violence refuges,

there are questions

0:32:560:32:58

about the collection,

collation of statistics

0:32:580:33:00

on crime, on pay.

0:33:000:33:04

Questions that should be asked,

debated, discussed and answered.

0:33:040:33:07

Heather Peto says the changes

debated, discussed and answered.

0:33:070:33:14

and hopes she can one day speak up

for the rights of the

0:33:140:33:16

trans-community from the benches

of the House of Commons.

0:33:160:33:19

As a feminist, I would stand up

to that and say, no,

0:33:190:33:21

I will just be who I am.

0:33:210:33:24

I have the self-confidence that I'm

a woman and I always have been,

0:33:240:33:26

and people should just

accept me for that.

0:33:260:33:32

The two chip significant issues

pick about bout the Labour Party and

0:33:320:33:36

the Government's

0:33:360:33:39

pick about bout the Labour Party and

transgender rights, let me start

0:33:390:33:39

transgender rights, let me start

with you, Matt -- two significant

0:33:390:33:44

transgender rights, let me start

issues. The government is

0:33:440:33:48

transgender rights, let me start

terrible tangle on transgender women

0:33:480:33:48

on all women short lists and they've

had to put it off until June.

Self

0:33:480:33:54

identifying trans-woman has never

been disbarred from being on a

0:33:540:33:57

women's short list in the

0:33:570:34:02

been disbarred from being on a

selection. The consultation was, as

0:34:020:34:03

I understand it, coming up with a

0:34:030:34:06

selection. The consultation was, as

form of words...

Clarifying the

0:34:060:34:09

position that trans-women are

elaborate rules to be on all women

0:34:090:34:11

short lists, it

0:34:110:34:13

elaborate rules to be on all women

around the party with two prominent

0:34:130:34:15

elaborate rules to be on all women

members threatening to resign if

0:34:150:34:16

elaborate rules to be on all women

that warning is put in, that

0:34:160:34:19

elaborate rules to be on all women

party has been bucking the

0:34:190:34:19

elaborate rules to be on all women

and kicking it into

0:34:190:34:22

elaborate rules to be on all women

The conversations I have had with

0:34:220:34:24

the leader's of this suggest

0:34:240:34:26

The conversations I have had with

not the case, they are

0:34:260:34:28

The conversations I have had with

consulting on it and exactly what

0:34:280:34:28

consulting on it and exactly what

the form of words will be there is

0:34:280:34:30

no actual plan as far as I'm aware

to stop trans-women self identifying

0:34:300:34:37

no actual plan as far as I'm aware

and being on a women's short list.

0:34:370:34:38

Can I ask how many trans-women are

0:34:380:34:40

and being on a women's short list.

applying to be on all women short

0:34:400:34:42

lists?

I'm not sure.

I suspect it is

zero.

Heather Peto is one of them in

0:34:420:34:49

zero.

Heather Peto is one of them in

the film, there may be several.

0:34:490:34:52

There may be but I suspect it is

less than the number of women on

0:34:520:34:58

this.

0:34:580:35:00

Not from any disparaging how

difficult it must be to be in

0:35:030:35:06

Not from any disparaging how

situation. There would

0:35:060:35:08

Not from any disparaging how

way of resolving the switch would

0:35:080:35:10

Not from any disparaging how

not to have all women short lists

0:35:100:35:12

Not from any disparaging how

and select the best candidates for

0:35:120:35:13

the job.

It is also about whether

Labour MPs have access to the

0:35:130:35:20

leadership programme, whether they

can stand as women's officers in

0:35:200:35:24

local parties. What Labour did

0:35:240:35:26

can stand as women's officers in

they jumped the gun by saying it is

0:35:260:35:28

fine, or self identifying

trans-women can have access to these

0:35:280:35:33

full rights. I think it is quite

welcome to have a

0:35:330:35:37

full rights. I think it is quite

Politics is the art of persuasion

0:35:370:35:39

and there was no real attempt

0:35:390:35:41

Politics is the art of persuasion

Labour leadership to bring the

0:35:410:35:41

party, bring some of the feminist...

There are radical feminists in the

0:35:410:35:46

party who will take more than a bit

of gentle persuasion to

0:35:460:35:50

party who will take more than a bit

accustomed to the idea

0:35:500:35:51

party who will take more than a bit

who were born men should be

0:35:510:35:53

party who will take more than a bit

all women short list.

That's right

0:35:530:35:54

but as we saw in the VT they are

asking for an opportunity to be

0:35:540:36:03

heard and the debate to be had so it

0:36:050:36:07

asking for an opportunity to be

is quite welcome there will be a

0:36:070:36:09

consultation.

It's not just

0:36:090:36:11

is quite welcome there will be a

kicked on this issue

0:36:110:36:13

is quite welcome there will be a

know what happened to the

0:36:130:36:14

Government's consultation

0:36:140:36:18

or woman. That's going to be a

difficult one for the government.

0:36:180:36:18

Remember the

0:36:180:36:20

difficult one for the government.

toy party that David Cameron fought

0:36:200:36:20

difficult one for the government.

over gay marriage.

Absolutely and

0:36:200:36:21

this is even much

0:36:210:36:23

over gay marriage.

Absolutely and

and a sensitive issue.

0:36:230:36:25

over gay marriage.

Absolutely and

and I've been guilty of it myself to

0:36:250:36:27

and I've been guilty of it myself to

get the language are wrong on this,

0:36:270:36:29

to upset people, and I can

0:36:290:36:34

get the language are wrong on this,

imagine the Prime Minister's qualms

0:36:340:36:35

about opening this can of worms

about opening this can of worms

0:36:350:36:39

within her own party, where there

will be people who

0:36:390:36:42

within her own party, where there

off message about it. It seems they

0:36:420:36:46

are pushing agendas are long

0:36:460:36:49

off message about it. It seems they

and there are bigger issues to worry

0:36:490:36:50

off message about it. It seems they

about.

You are talking about 2000 or

0:36:500:36:52

3000 people in a party of 650,000.

It is a rounding error.

In the

0:36:520:36:59

3000 people in a party of 650,000.

Labour Party, you're talking about?

0:36:590:37:00

3000 people in a party of 650,000.

It is not splitting the party, it is

0:37:000:37:02

3000 people in a party of 650,000.

a small minority of women who don't

0:37:020:37:05

3000 people in a party of 650,000.

believe in trans-rights, that's it.

0:37:050:37:06

Interesting to hear Theresa

0:37:060:37:08

believe in trans-rights, that's it.

talking about the Government's

0:37:080:37:09

consultation. That was a clear

statement she made

0:37:090:37:12

consultation. That was a clear

conference saying she wanted

0:37:120:37:14

consultation. That was a clear

streamline this and trans-wasn't a

0:37:140:37:16

mental health issue, she made a

0:37:160:37:19

streamline this and trans-wasn't a

strong commitment

0:37:190:37:21

streamline this and trans-wasn't a

and she didn't have to do that.

She

0:37:210:37:22

and she didn't have to do that.

She

didn't at all and

0:37:220:37:26

and she didn't have to do that.

She

she went as far as that. It is not

0:37:260:37:28

unprecedented. Ireland, Argentina,

0:37:280:37:30

she went as far as that. It is not

Colombia and Malta have changed

0:37:300:37:31

their processes to deep apologise it

0:37:310:37:33

Colombia and Malta have changed

so it is merely a legal process and

0:37:330:37:35

that is what the

0:37:350:37:38

so it is merely a legal process and

getting at. My understanding is for

0:37:380:37:40

a person to legally change their

0:37:400:37:42

getting at. My understanding is for

gender they have to live as their

0:37:420:37:44

desired gender for two years and

they have to have psychiatric

0:37:440:37:47

they have to have

0:37:470:37:48

evaluations and medical opinions

they have to have

0:37:480:37:48

evaluations and medical opinions

from two doctors and tests that some

0:37:480:37:50

have claimed are incredibly

traumatising. It can be made legal

0:37:500:37:59

process from precedents aboard.

We

0:37:590:38:00

traumatising. It can be made legal

will carry

0:38:000:38:03

traumatising. It can be made legal

throughout the programme.

0:38:030:38:03

It's coming up to 11:40am,

you're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:38:030:38:05

Still to come -

0:38:050:38:06

There is a big row brewing

in the Brexit Select Committee

0:38:060:38:09

and I'll be talking to its Chairman

- Hilary Benn.

0:38:090:38:11

First though, it's time for

the Sunday Politics where you are.

0:38:110:38:13

I see this role is

0:38:130:38:19

-- welcome to Sunday Politics.

Coming up. The first Welsh taxes for

0:38:240:38:31

800 years will kick in next month.

Are we ready? And could last

0:38:310:38:37

vehicles be an alternative to the

Swansea Bay metal? First, Alex

0:38:370:38:42

Kearns has been well secretary for

two years, with Brexit and other

0:38:420:38:48

opportunities crossing his desk. I

asked him how he thought things had

0:38:480:38:50

been going when I met him.

Well, it has been a fantastic

0:38:500:38:55

privilege in the first instance. I

wanted to play my part in bringing a

0:38:550:38:59

much warmer relationship, more

constructive relationship, between

0:38:590:39:02

the Welsh and UK Government. Funding

was a key issue. People in Wales

0:39:020:39:07

have rightly been complaining for

some time there needed to be in new

0:39:070:39:11

funding settlement, and I think that

is one of the most significant

0:39:110:39:14

outcomes. Overall, it is about

getting people to understand that

0:39:140:39:19

there are two governmentus in Wales,

one that act in the devolved area,

0:39:190:39:23

the Welsh Government, and then in

reserve spaces there is the UK

0:39:230:39:26

government, which is also relevant

to people working in Wales.

This

0:39:260:39:30

time last year, the big

accomplishments were Wales Act,

0:39:300:39:40

physical framework, mobile coverage

and business support. In the year

0:39:400:39:42

since then, what would you say are

the big things you have achieved?

It

0:39:420:39:48

is a central part around Brexit. The

referendum, are outcome of that, was

0:39:480:39:54

a surprise to many. We have an

obligation to act on that

0:39:540:39:57

instruction, because Wales voted to

leave. It has made the role of the

0:39:570:40:00

Secretary of State for Wales much

more exciting and central to the

0:40:000:40:03

thinking of government process.

There are several Brexit committees.

0:40:030:40:09

I specialise in the one in trade and

the one in domestic preparations, as

0:40:090:40:15

well as economic affairs. That has

enabled me to ensure that the UK

0:40:150:40:20

government represents every part of

the United Kingdom. Wales is my

0:40:200:40:24

interest, as it moves forward in

preparations to leave the EU.

It is

0:40:240:40:29

interesting that you say the

relationships between the two

0:40:290:40:32

governments have been a step

forward, Brexit, because you could

0:40:320:40:35

argue... With the repeal Bill and

so-called power grab from the UK

0:40:350:40:40

Government, as the Welsh Government

would call it, that actually

0:40:400:40:42

relations have been under a lot of

pressure between the two.

Let's go

0:40:420:40:46

back to the Wills bill, Wales act.

There were many journalists, maybe

0:40:460:40:52

you included, who suggested that I

would never get agreement between

0:40:520:40:55

the UK Government and Welsh

Government. It was only by hard work

0:40:550:40:59

and determination that we succeeded.

In relation to the European Union

0:40:590:41:04

withdrawal bill, and it does --

equally optimistic.

The

0:41:040:41:12

electrification of the line from

London to Cardiff has happened over

0:41:120:41:17

the last year, but it has been

cancelled to Swansea. Over the last

0:41:170:41:20

year or two, does that have to count

as a failure?

No, I think that is

0:41:200:41:26

the right decision. It is taxpayers'

money. It is the same train, which

0:41:260:41:30

will take this amount of time...

But

when it was going to Swansea, you

0:41:300:41:33

were in favour of that, saying it

needed to happen. Now it is not, you

0:41:330:41:37

say it is still the right decision.

It has to be either order.

No, it is

0:41:370:41:42

the same train that the excessive

amount of time, and spending

0:41:420:41:47

potentially £700 million on

electrifying a railway when the

0:41:470:41:49

train was by model and would not

have got any quicker, it did not

0:41:490:41:52

make in a sense.

Another issue that

your detractors would be very

0:41:520:41:59

unhappy with is your continued

reluctance, refusal, to devolve air

0:41:590:42:03

passenger duty to the Welsh

Government, citing, as the UK

0:42:030:42:08

Government has, that it would be too

damaging to Bristol airport. You are

0:42:080:42:12

not fully there are standing up for

Wales strongly enough, is that fair?

0:42:120:42:17

I do not accept that. First of all,

the commission did not come up with

0:42:170:42:21

an agreement on this issue. The

First Minister was calling for air

0:42:210:42:27

passenger duty to be devolved, but

that is pretty anti-competitive...

0:42:270:42:30

So does the labour of the

conservative and Wales is not the

0:42:300:42:34

leader of the Conservatives.

Only UK

bases, the most important market...

0:42:340:42:39

You should be looking at Wills, not

the UK.

The most important market to

0:42:390:42:44

Wales as the UK market, because 80%

of output from Wills goes to the

0:42:440:42:50

rest of the UK, and, therefore, the

vibrancy of the Welsh economy is

0:42:500:42:55

dependent on the strength of the UK

economy, and the UK economy is

0:42:550:42:59

dependent on the strength of the

Welsh economy.

0:42:590:43:02

One of the success you have always

cited as the server until being

0:43:020:43:05

abolished. We see in the media that

the Newport area is being seen as an

0:43:050:43:12

area where people are trying houses,

the Bristol posts saying there is

0:43:120:43:18

going to be a mass exodus to Wales,

were historically ones are cheaper.

0:43:180:43:23

-- the Severn Toll. As the

consequence of abolishing the tolls

0:43:230:43:30

would be an influx of a lot of south

eastern English people did wheels,

0:43:300:43:33

would that be regrettable?

So, are

are you asking if I should keep that

0:43:330:43:41

all 30 TV barrier?

Every action has

a consequence, what consequence

0:43:410:43:45

could be from migration to South

East Wills.

You have a toll across

0:43:450:43:58

the whole of the border to stop

that?

This is removing that.

We

0:43:580:44:03

don't worry about that cross-border

issue in north-east Wales. Airbus is

0:44:030:44:06

there. 40% of the employees of

Airbus come from the English side of

0:44:060:44:10

the border. That is good for the

economy. It shows a greater dynamic

0:44:100:44:15

of movement between those places.

Therefore, on that basis, by

0:44:150:44:21

removing the tollus on the Severn

Bridge, it has created excitement in

0:44:210:44:25

the business community, because the

biggest prospect...

But there are

0:44:250:44:29

cultural aspects. The economic

reasons behind it are well-known.

0:44:290:44:33

Less discussed the possible

population changes which could

0:44:330:44:40

result from them, and I am not

really getting a sense from you as

0:44:400:44:42

to whether or not you think that

would be good or bad.

There are

0:44:420:44:44

going to be challenges along the

way, without question. If there are

0:44:440:44:48

more people working in an area,

there is greater demand for housing.

0:44:480:44:51

On that basis, there is going to be

a social policy, because that has to

0:44:510:44:55

be resolved in terms of extra

housing. There is going to be

0:44:550:45:01

greater need for development for

business property. The biggest

0:45:010:45:02

property deal last year in Wales

took place after the Severn Tollus,

0:45:020:45:08

and the agent said it was because

they were being abolished. This goes

0:45:080:45:11

to show that there is an excitement

amongst the business community. This

0:45:110:45:14

is about, look, politics is about

improving people's lives. It is

0:45:140:45:19

about creating more wealth, sharing

wealth on a better basis. We can

0:45:190:45:26

always be poor by keeping a barrier

between us and other economies, or

0:45:260:45:32

more dynamic economies. That is

quite easily done. And then you can

0:45:320:45:34

defend it by saying we need those

tollus in order to maintain that

0:45:340:45:41

barrier. That is not the right thing

to do. I want the greatest movement,

0:45:410:45:44

the greatest dynamism in the

economy. I want to go -- the

0:45:440:45:54

critical mass that we create between

Bristol and Cardiff to start

0:45:540:45:58

campaigning with London and the

south east.

0:45:580:46:02

Welsh liver's election for a dip

into leader is still going on. A few

0:46:020:46:06

weeks ago, you will remember Julie

Morgan, one of the candidates, what

0:46:060:46:09

you're making her pitch. But what of

her opponent, Carolyn Harris? A

0:46:090:46:14

short while ago, I began by asking

her why she wanted the job.

0:46:140:46:18

I see this role as being

about campaigning, motivating

0:46:180:46:20

and enthusing people.

0:46:200:46:21

I've been an MP since 2015

and every campaign I have

0:46:210:46:23

taken on, I think I have

delivered the goods on.

0:46:230:46:27

I've led the way on 1950s women,

0:46:270:46:27

I've managed to get children's

funerals free in Wales

0:46:270:46:30

and I'm very,

very close to getting them

0:46:300:46:32

in the rest of the UK.

0:46:320:46:33

Fixed-odd betting

terminals - dreadful,

0:46:330:46:34

dreadful machines -

were somewhere on the horizon,

0:46:340:46:37

but they are now at

the top of the political agenda

0:46:370:46:39

and I'm hopeful that we're going

to get something on that very soon.

0:46:390:46:42

So, I think I've proved

myself to be the kind of person

0:46:420:46:45

who can work with people,

talk to people, listen to people.

0:46:450:46:48

I home in on the issues and I love

getting my sleeves rolled up

0:46:480:46:51

and getting the job done.

0:46:510:46:55

What kind of campaigns do

you think are needed

0:46:550:46:58

as deputy leader of

Welsh Labour, then?

0:46:580:46:59

Well, we don't really

know yet, do we?

0:46:590:47:01

We don't know until

we get out there and

0:47:010:47:03

actually speak to people.

0:47:030:47:04

I think we need to do

more work within the party

0:47:040:47:07

about supporting people

who want to become members,

0:47:070:47:09

who want to become part

of the Labour family,

0:47:090:47:11

especially for women and minority

groups who have access problems,

0:47:110:47:15

or even childcare problems,

and if you put yourself up

0:47:150:47:19

as a candidate, it's extremely

emotionally draining

0:47:190:47:21

and financially draining,

so I would like to see us doing

0:47:210:47:24

more on that in terms

of working with people

0:47:240:47:27

and training people

and giving them an idea of

0:47:270:47:31

what they're getting themselves

into, but it is not just

0:47:310:47:33

about the membership, is it?

0:47:330:47:34

It is about talking to people

in our communities.

0:47:340:47:37

This 3 million people in Wales.

0:47:370:47:39

They need us, they need us to listen

to them, and I see this role

0:47:390:47:42

as about working with not just

membership but working with

0:47:420:47:46

everybody in Wales to find

out what we can do to

0:47:460:47:47

make their life easier.

0:47:470:47:49

As a member of Parliament,

I just wonder, if you are

0:47:490:47:51

the deputy leader of Welsh

Labour, who then, ultimately,

0:47:510:47:55

do you think is your boss?

0:47:550:47:56

Is it Carwyn Jones or

is it Jeremy Corbyn?

0:47:560:48:00

Who do you have to

listen to if there is

0:48:000:48:01

a disagreement between

the two leaders?

0:48:010:48:03

Well, if there was a disagreement

to the detriment of Wales,

0:48:030:48:05

then obviously Welsh Labour wins

hands down, because I am

0:48:050:48:08

a Welsh politician, a Welsh MP,

I have to put my constituency

0:48:080:48:10

and Wales first.

0:48:100:48:11

But I can't ever imagine

there would be a time when the two

0:48:110:48:15

did not agree on something, because,

in all fairness to Jeremy, he does

0:48:150:48:18

leave devolution to sort itself out

0:48:180:48:20

and does not interfere in Welsh

politics.

0:48:200:48:25

If it did arise, I will take your

point that it may well not,

0:48:250:48:30

but you would defy the party whip

in Parliament

0:48:300:48:33

and vote against it on that basis?

0:48:330:48:35

Well, I have defied

the party whip before.

0:48:350:48:40

I defied the party whip

on welfare reform.

0:48:400:48:42

I was actually in the lobby

with Jeremy Corbyn.

0:48:420:48:44

There was only 47 of us,

but I was there then.

0:48:440:48:46

It's not something I would be afraid

to do,

0:48:460:48:49

because I have done it

before.

0:48:490:48:50

One of the big issues I am sure

you will be aware of

0:48:500:48:53

is one member,

one vote and whether or not

0:48:530:48:55

it should be used or should not be

0:48:550:48:57

to elect the next

Labour leader in Wales.

0:48:570:48:59

What are your views on that?

0:48:590:49:01

In terms of the college, I am very

much in favour of the unions

0:49:010:49:04

having a say.

0:49:040:49:05

People need to remember

that the unions did not

0:49:050:49:07

join the Labour Party,

they created the Labour Party.

0:49:070:49:09

Yes, I support that

part of the college.

0:49:090:49:11

What I would say is

that some people, who

0:49:110:49:14

we say are on the left, people

like Diane Abbott, Clive Lewis, have

0:49:140:49:17

actually come out in support of me

because they work with me,

0:49:170:49:19

they know me, they understand me,

they know my motives,

0:49:190:49:22

they know my motivation.

0:49:220:49:30

And for those to get personally

criticised for supporting

0:49:300:49:33

me because I am not

supporting OMOV...

0:49:330:49:37

Sure, but would you be happy

if you got the support of

0:49:370:49:40

the unions but not

of the membership?

0:49:400:49:42

Would that still be, in your view,

a strong enough victory?

0:49:420:49:45

I like to think that the membership

will see past the process

0:49:450:49:48

and will actually,

like my colleagues who

0:49:480:49:49

supported me, agree that...

0:49:490:49:50

The process is decided.

0:49:500:49:52

We've got to move on now.

0:49:520:49:57

We can't talk, 25,000 of us

talking to each other,

0:49:570:49:59

we need to talk to the 3 million

people out there who need us.

0:49:590:50:02

Yes, I've had a union

support, so has Julie, but,

0:50:020:50:04

yes, I have got membership support

because not everybody is obsessed

0:50:040:50:07

with OMOV, if I'm honest.

0:50:070:50:08

Most people can see

past that and see

0:50:080:50:10

that they need the best person

for the job

0:50:100:50:13

and that we need to look

beyond the process.

0:50:130:50:16

As a female politician,

how safe a place do you think

0:50:160:50:20

politics is for women in Wales

specifically, and what will your

0:50:200:50:22

role be in trying to prove that?

0:50:220:50:27

I personally, myself,

have come under

0:50:270:50:29

some really nasty personal attacks,

0:50:290:50:31

so I understand it is

very uncomfortable.

0:50:310:50:34

It is uncomfortable for men,

it's not just women

0:50:340:50:36

who are vulnerable to this.

0:50:360:50:37

But I think that we need

to be supporting women

0:50:370:50:42

to understand how they

can best tackle it.

0:50:420:50:44

Some people say grow a second skin,

it's not always possible to

0:50:440:50:47

grow a second skin when

people are being really

0:50:470:50:50

personal about you,

so

0:50:500:50:51

I think we do need to be better

at nurturing and supporting

0:50:510:50:57

on all aspects of

involvement with the party.

0:50:570:51:00

I am really happy...

0:51:000:51:00

I am a good listener.

0:51:000:51:02

I am a good talker but I am

a good listener, and I've

0:51:020:51:05

got a big heart and a big

mouth, so I can actually be

0:51:050:51:08

what I need to be

for everyone.

0:51:080:51:09

Thank you very much.

0:51:090:51:11

Thank you.

0:51:110:51:18

In just a couple of weeks, Wales

will be collecting its first taxes

0:51:180:51:22

in its own right as a country ever,

or at least since the days of the

0:51:220:51:28

13th century, so are we ready, and

how big is steak is this? We have

0:51:280:51:32

been looking through the history

books.

0:51:320:51:34

A new page of Welsh history

is set to be written.

0:51:340:51:37

On the 1st of April 2018,

Wales will once again take

0:51:370:51:40

charge of some of its taxes.

0:51:400:51:45

The last time any kind

of taxes were collected

0:51:450:51:48

by Welsh authorities

0:51:480:51:49

was nearly 800 years ago.

0:51:490:51:51

Since Tyler's church,

now rebuilt here,

0:51:510:51:53

dates from that time.

0:51:530:51:56

As you'd expect, back then,

Wales was a very different place.

0:51:560:52:01

When we think about Wales

in the Middle Ages, we think

0:52:010:52:03

about it a four different

independent countries.

0:52:030:52:07

Gwynedd, Powys and then

what is now Ceredigion.

0:52:070:52:09

Those three, together with one that

disappeared just after the

0:52:090:52:11

Normans turned up, pulled

and tugged against each other

0:52:110:52:15

for the whole of the Middle Ages.

0:52:150:52:17

There never really was a single,

you know, country,

0:52:170:52:20

as we would think.

0:52:200:52:21

They were all taxed differently.

0:52:210:52:24

In terms of all of what we know

was Wales being taxed in

0:52:240:52:28

a uniform fashion, this

is the first time in history.

0:52:280:52:31

So, what taxes are on

the cards for April?

0:52:310:52:33

The land transaction tax,

which replaces the old stamp duty on

0:52:330:52:36

property, and the landfill disposal

tax, which replaces Westminster's

0:52:360:52:38

landfill tax.

0:52:380:52:43

These will be collected

by the Welsh Revenue Authority,

0:52:430:52:45

from their new base.

0:52:450:52:48

We are a small but highly

specialised organisation.

0:52:480:52:50

So, we are going to be about

70 people, and yet we are

0:52:500:52:55

going to have to be able to offer

the same sort of suite of services

0:52:550:52:58

that you would expect from HMRC.

0:52:580:53:00

The biggest change, anyway,

is that these new taxes we pay

0:53:000:53:08

to the WRA, it's what happens

afterwards,

0:53:080:53:09

in a way, it's the biggest change.

0:53:090:53:11

That money is then specifically for

Welsh Government to spend on public

0:53:110:53:14

services in Wales, and so there

is no connection to London.

0:53:140:53:16

But Plaid Cymru's economic

adviser is doubtful

0:53:160:53:18

much will change.

0:53:180:53:19

Do you think there will be

more spending

0:53:190:53:21

on public services?

0:53:210:53:22

I doubt it, because the ideal way

is getting more spending,

0:53:220:53:27

getting more tax revenue is not

to put up the rate of tax,

0:53:270:53:30

it is not to increase tax

but build the economy.

0:53:300:53:32

If you grow the economy,

you grow the tax base

0:53:320:53:35

without putting up the rates of tax.

0:53:350:53:37

And how will these new powers change

the Assembly's role in

0:53:370:53:39

deciding which taxes are collected?

0:53:390:53:41

Assembly Members will be

able to block them,

0:53:410:53:43

if they so choose to,

0:53:430:53:44

or endorse them, so it

will give them power

0:53:440:53:47

now of the equivalent

of the money bill,

0:53:470:53:49

but they already have

the power to block the Welsh budget.

0:53:490:53:54

They may wish to put riders with

that and also the taxes,

0:53:540:53:57

or they might have, you know,

new private members bills

0:53:570:53:59

or other bills

to come in

0:53:590:54:02

in order to have new taxes

on various products.

0:54:020:54:05

You know, for example

plastic bottles

0:54:050:54:06

or something like that.

0:54:060:54:07

And there are more tax

powers heading this way,

0:54:070:54:11

with control over income tax rates

0:54:110:54:15

set to be devolved in April next

year.

0:54:150:54:17

Scotland has had some income

tax powers since 1999.

0:54:170:54:19

The powers here are

quite limited, far more

0:54:190:54:22

limited than the Scottish

powers on income tax.

0:54:220:54:24

It's going to raise

about £2 billion.

0:54:240:54:27

That is 2 billion out

of the 15 billion, roughly, the

0:54:270:54:29

Welsh Government spends every year.

0:54:290:54:32

It is material, but not that large.

0:54:320:54:33

There will be hopes

in the Westminster Government

0:54:330:54:37

that the Welsh Government

and Assembly are responsible enough

0:54:370:54:41

to enable more powers to be devolved

over tax-raising powers,

0:54:410:54:44

and they will probably be

hope within the Assembly

0:54:440:54:47

that they can develop more

income streams,

0:54:470:54:51

new types of taxation,

to increase their own spending.

0:54:510:54:57

So, the 1st of April,

a day for the history books.

0:54:570:55:00

But, of course, we all

know that, in the end,

0:55:000:55:02

no matter who collects the taxes,

we still have to pay them.

0:55:020:55:10

Now, we know there is going to be a

Metro transport system in South East

0:55:140:55:18

Wills, and also north Wales, and

there are also plans for a network

0:55:180:55:21

in the Swansea Bay region, but how

should it work? There is a call for

0:55:210:55:27

it to be based not on trains and

trams but a system of driverless

0:55:270:55:30

vehicles. The region could lead the

way and developing alternative

0:55:300:55:34

transport like this, and the man who

said that joins me now. I will not

0:55:340:55:39

ask a UK men, whether or not any

driverless vehicle, but that is your

0:55:390:55:43

proposal, instead of having these

trends, you just call a driverless

0:55:430:55:48

vehicle and it takes you really want

to go?

He eats for getting people to

0:55:480:55:54

replace car journeys with public

transport is having a turn up and go

0:55:540:55:57

public transport system. In London,

you do not have to wait very long

0:55:570:56:01

before something comes up. That is

clearly not the case in London, you

0:56:010:56:03

do not have to wait very long before

something comes up. That is clearly

0:56:030:56:06

not the case and well. In parts of

the country, the last bus leaves at

0:56:060:56:09

4pm. There are four trains per day

from some places to Swansea, or a

0:56:090:56:14

bus that takes you to and a half

hours for a 30 minute card running.

0:56:140:56:18

You will not persuade people to give

up their car in those circumstances,

0:56:180:56:23

so how can we realistically create a

turn up and caught transport system

0:56:230:56:26

in Swansea Bay? You cannot rely on

the train network, as you would in

0:56:260:56:29

the valleys, so we need to think

imaginatively. I am then, let's not

0:56:290:56:35

play catch up, let's try to

leapfrog.

When you see leapfrog and

0:56:350:56:39

catch up, you are suggesting these

driverless vehicles, which are being

0:56:390:56:43

tested, they are being used in

places like Greenwich in London

0:56:430:56:48

already, but it is an emerging

technology at best. I guess the

0:56:480:56:52

problem could be at the risk to

boot, you know, your eggs in that

0:56:520:56:55

basket, because it may not work on

end.

The Swansea Bay region is just

0:56:550:57:02

a concept, an outline study being

commissioned. These things are

0:57:020:57:04

moving very quickly. Six years ago,

Hooper did not exist. Half of all

0:57:040:57:09

journeys in London are now made by

Goober, and they have a pool

0:57:090:57:17

servers, which is basically a

minibus. -- are made by Uber. That

0:57:170:57:24

sort of technology is already making

existing large, empty buses

0:57:240:57:29

redundant. People do not want to go

on them. You add automated vehicles

0:57:290:57:32

into the mix and the UK government

expect them to be on sale in the UK

0:57:320:57:38

in three years. This is happening

quickly. Let's not try to create a

0:57:380:57:44

Manchester or Sheffield - type tram

system, we are 30 years behind the

0:57:440:57:48

curve. Let's try to leapfrog, using

new technology and creating the

0:57:480:57:52

Swansea Bay region as a test-bed, to

try out the driverless technology.

0:57:520:57:58

We can try out wireless recharging.

We can go through the regulatory

0:57:580:58:02

barriers and access hurdles, so we

see come to us, experiment here, we

0:58:020:58:06

will underpin it with the five G

test-bed, and let's do something

0:58:060:58:08

exciting.

Is the danger not, it is

exciting, it could work, but the

0:58:080:58:13

problem is you are saying testing

out a novel lot of new technologies.

0:58:130:58:18

Maybe people in Swansea Bay did not

want to be the guinea pigs.

Stop

0:58:180:58:23

being so conservative! Look at the

power that we have.

It is public

0:58:230:58:28

money.

Look at broadband. We spend

tens of million pounds to

0:58:280:58:36

tens of million pounds to give BT

old-fashioned telephone cabinets

0:58:370:58:41

with copper wire, but if you had

started with fibre, this is an exact

0:58:410:58:46

parallel. For too long, we have been

playing catch-up and are not very

0:58:460:58:49

good. We take ages and the result is

often pretty shoddy. We are starting

0:58:490:58:55

from a blank sheet of paper, let's

go straight to the future solution,

0:58:550:58:59

rather than playing catch up.

This

comes across the desk of the economy

0:58:590:59:05

and transport Secretary, we know he

is quite keen on driverless

0:59:050:59:09

vehicles, he wants Welsh roads to be

tested... Test centres for

0:59:090:59:14

driverless vehicles, do you think

you would go something like this?

I

0:59:140:59:17

am hoping he will. Things are moving

quick. The place we are currently

0:59:170:59:23

moving, the Cardiff and valleys

Metro is moving very slowly because

0:59:230:59:26

that is complex. In the next five

years, you will not see many new

0:59:260:59:29

services because of all of the

transferring of the track and

0:59:290:59:31

converting it to L. All

prerequisites to get a real system

0:59:310:59:34

working in a different way.

Driverless technology offers us the

0:59:340:59:39

chance to not bother with that and

having these car sharing, lift

0:59:390:59:43

sharing pods coming around and

within every want to go. The

0:59:430:59:46

exciting thing with machine

learning, artificial intelligence,

0:59:460:59:49

it is changing rapidly. What machine

learning will do if the computer

0:59:490:59:54

algorithm will create the routes

where people want to go, so you

0:59:540:59:57

won't have timetables, it will go

from maps, two apps. That is the

0:59:571:00:03

exciting opportunity here.

Do you

think there would need to be a

1:00:031:00:07

hybrid, will you would have to have

some of those buses and trains, as

1:00:071:00:10

well as having these boards, and

then it becomes incredibly expensive

1:00:101:00:14

to deliver all of that?

To begin

with, clearly, we will have to

1:00:141:00:18

transition is, which is why we will

need a test-bed to work this out.

1:00:181:00:21

But if we can crack it in certain

areas, we can be the place that

1:00:211:00:26

people look to to see what the

future of public transport looks

1:00:261:00:28

like, rather than trying to ape part

of England 20 to 30 years ahead of

1:00:281:00:32

us.

You see it will not happen any

Jensen, how much of a timetable, if

1:00:321:00:36

you excuse the pun, how soon do you

think this could be in place?

We

1:00:361:00:42

need to start the planning now

because driverless vehicles will be

1:00:421:00:46

on UK roads within three years. It

is happening at pace. We need to be

1:00:461:00:51

all over it. There is a broader

economic point. I do not want

1:00:511:00:57

Swansea Bay to be committing that

the Cardiff. We need to start

1:00:571:01:04

creating a public transport system

that creates viable, vibrant

1:01:041:01:08

communities.

That is it from me, but

we are on Twitter of course. For

1:01:081:01:12

now, thank

1:01:121:01:15

the consensus.

We will have to leave

it there, back to Sarah. Welcome

1:01:251:01:25

back.

1:01:251:01:27

A row has erupted in the influential

Brexit Select Committee of MPs.

1:01:271:01:31

The majority of pro-Remain MPs

on the committee, led

1:01:311:01:33

by the Labour Chairman Hilary Benn,

have backed a report saying

1:01:331:01:35

that the Article 50 process may

need to be extended,

1:01:351:01:38

so that Brexit would happen

later than March 2019.

1:01:381:01:40

But that infuriated the minority

of pro-Brexit MPs on the committee,

1:01:401:01:43

who have published their own report,

which says that delaying

1:01:431:01:45

Brexit would not respect

the referendum result.

1:01:451:01:47

One of those pro-Brexit MPs

on the committee, Jacob Rees-Mogg,

1:01:471:01:49

said: "The majority report

is the prospectus

1:01:491:01:51

for the vassal state.

1:01:511:01:52

It is a future not worthy of us

as a country, and I am sure that

1:01:521:01:56

Theresa May will rightly reject

a report by the high

1:01:561:01:58

priests of Remain."

1:01:581:02:04

The majority report is an attempt

to keep us in the EU

1:02:061:02:09

by sleight of hand."

1:02:091:02:09

The Committee Chairman is Labour MP

Hilary Benn and he joins me now.

1:02:091:02:13

Have you been called a high priest

before?

Many things but never a high

1:02:131:02:18

Have you been called a high priest

priest. He says you are trying to

1:02:181:02:20

delay Brexit

1:02:201:02:22

priest. He says you are trying to

because you are

1:02:221:02:24

priest. He says you are trying to

Remainer. That's not the case, not

1:02:241:02:25

about undermining the referendum

result, is about the problem we

1:02:251:02:28

face, there are seven months to go

1:02:281:02:30

result, is about the problem we

until the Article 50 negotiations

1:02:301:02:32

are due to end. There

1:02:321:02:34

until the Article 50 negotiations

host of issues that have

1:02:341:02:37

until the Article 50 negotiations

been addressed. We haven't started

1:02:371:02:37

negotiating our future economic

relationship, what will happen to

1:02:371:02:41

trade, services, 80% of the British

economy's services, how will we work

1:02:411:02:47

trade, services, 80% of the British

together on defence, foreign policy

1:02:471:02:47

and security, really important

1:02:471:02:51

together on defence, foreign policy

the wake of the Salisbury attack,

1:02:511:02:56

cooperating on aviation safety, food

1:02:561:02:57

the wake of the Salisbury attack,

safety, medicines, research, and

1:02:571:03:00

the wake of the Salisbury attack,

question of how to keep an open

1:03:001:03:00

border between Northern Ireland

1:03:001:03:05

question of how to keep an open

be set out by October?

We didn't set

1:03:051:03:06

the deadline of the sort of the

the deadline of the sort of the

1:03:061:03:08

negotiating process

1:03:081:03:10

the deadline of the sort of the

pointed out when the deal is agreed

1:03:101:03:17

-- European Council. If there

1:03:181:03:19

-- European Council. If there are a

whole load of things that have not

1:03:191:03:23

whole load of things that have not

yet been negotiated the government

1:03:231:03:23

could ask

1:03:231:03:25

yet been negotiated the government

Article 50 process and one of the

1:03:251:03:27

things that we say is when David

Davis came to give evidence to us,

1:03:271:03:31

he said we don't want to

1:03:311:03:33

Davis came to give evidence to us,

negotiating really important issues

1:03:331:03:34

Davis came to give evidence to us,

in the transition period because the

1:03:341:03:36

Davis came to give evidence to us,

balance of power changes. What we

1:03:361:03:38

are seeing is the best way to get

are seeing is the best way to get

1:03:381:03:41

the best deal for the British people

is to do so when you have the

1:03:411:03:43

is to do so when you have the

maximum negotiating clout and that

1:03:431:03:44

is during the Article 50 period.

Without a hard deadline of the two

1:03:441:03:50

years since triggering Article 50,

the EU could just delay and delay

1:03:501:03:54

years since triggering Article 50,

and delay this to the point that it

1:03:541:03:55

is a

1:03:551:03:59

and delay this to the point that it

as not leaving the EU.

The body

1:03:591:04:00

wants a never-ending process.

1:04:001:04:02

as not leaving the EU.

The body

be some in the EU who wouldn't mind,

1:04:021:04:05

as not leaving the EU.

The body

they would prefer it to a

1:04:051:04:06

as not leaving the EU.

The body

Brexit.

They might

1:04:061:04:08

as not leaving the EU.

The body

referendum decision has

1:04:081:04:11

as not leaving the EU.

The body

We have seen another example this

1:04:111:04:11

week, Chris Grayling, the Transport

Secretary, said we would

1:04:111:04:15

week, Chris Grayling, the Transport

to put checks on goods coming in to

1:04:151:04:18

week, Chris Grayling, the Transport

Dover. Knows that the customs

1:04:181:04:21

week, Chris Grayling, the Transport

relations are not ready so these are

1:04:211:04:23

week, Chris Grayling, the Transport

serious issues that face the

1:04:231:04:23

country. Or the businesses I speak

to so we understand how it works

1:04:231:04:31

today and can you tell us how it

will work tomorrow when we have left

1:04:311:04:34

and the answer is we don't

1:04:341:04:37

will work tomorrow when we have left

because we haven't negotiated it. It

1:04:371:04:39

will work tomorrow when we have left

is about taking a sufficient time to

1:04:391:04:39

get a decent deal. Everybody

1:04:391:04:41

is about taking a sufficient time to

that the detailed negotiation is

1:04:411:04:42

going to take place during the

transition period because you are

1:04:421:04:45

not going to

1:04:451:04:49

between now and October. Would you

need to impose another hard deadline

1:04:491:04:51

between now and October. Would you

in order to keep minds focused.

Not

1:04:511:04:57

allow the balance of power to shift

to those in the EU who could delay

1:04:571:05:01

and delay if this is an open-ended

1:05:011:05:03

to those in the EU who could delay

and this would only happen if the

1:05:031:05:05

government were to ask for it. It

1:05:051:05:07

and this would only happen if the

other EU 27. Of all of the other

1:05:071:05:10

member states. But it is about

having flexibility, remember the row

1:05:101:05:14

when the government put a hard

1:05:141:05:16

having flexibility, remember the row

deadline of 11 o'clock on the 29th

1:05:161:05:16

of March? Lots of people including

1:05:161:05:19

deadline of 11 o'clock on the 29th

Conservative said this is

1:05:191:05:21

deadline of 11 o'clock on the 29th

sensible. When you are engaged in

1:05:211:05:22

deadline of 11 o'clock on the 29th

negotiation that is as complex and

1:05:221:05:24

challenging as this, to

1:05:241:05:26

negotiation that is as complex and

absolutely hard deadline

1:05:261:05:27

negotiation that is as complex and

help you get the right outcome for

1:05:271:05:29

the British people.

There is

1:05:291:05:31

help you get the right outcome for

accusation from the people on your

1:05:311:05:32

committee who don't agree with your

1:05:321:05:34

accusation from the people on your

conclusions who published

1:05:341:05:39

conclusions who published this

minority report, which is that you

1:05:391:05:41

conclusions who published this

are trying to keep

1:05:411:05:43

Single Market and customs union by

the back door using the Irish border

1:05:431:05:45

issue to do that.

1:05:451:05:48

preferred outcome that we stayed in

issue to do that.

1:05:481:05:49

this customs union and Single

Market.

It is my preferred point,

1:05:491:05:53

position but they have not reached a

decision in the review. The

1:05:531:05:57

government set a high bar on the

Irish border, it wants

1:05:571:06:02

government set a high bar on the

no infrastructure, and I agree. As

1:06:021:06:03

things stand at the moment, because

the government hasn't come forward

1:06:031:06:06

things stand at the moment, because

with a proposal as to how to deliver

1:06:061:06:09

things stand at the moment, because

that in practice, we don't see how

1:06:091:06:13

things stand at the moment, because

you can reconcile that objective

1:06:131:06:13

with the Government's commitment to

leave the Single Market and customs

1:06:131:06:16

union. This will come back again and

again in the negotiations until it

1:06:161:06:20

is resolved. My own personal view is

is resolved. My own personal view

1:06:201:06:23

staying in a customs union would

is resolved. My own personal view

1:06:231:06:24

staying in a customs union would

provide part of the answer

1:06:241:06:26

staying in a customs union would

keeping that border open, which is

1:06:261:06:26

what everyone says they want.

It is

a pretty rotten state of affairs

1:06:261:06:31

a pretty rotten state of affairs

when your Select Committee produces

1:06:311:06:33

majority and minority report

1:06:331:06:35

when your Select Committee produces

are clearly absolutely split on

1:06:351:06:38

when your Select Committee produces

principles of this.

It is not

1:06:381:06:39

unprecedented but I wish we

1:06:391:06:41

principles of this.

It is not

able to reach agreement. You know

1:06:411:06:42

what, the referendum showed the

1:06:421:06:44

able to reach agreement. You know

nation was divided down

1:06:441:06:46

able to reach agreement. You know

the Cabinet is divided, there are

1:06:461:06:47

different views in Parliament, it's

not entirely surprising that we find

1:06:471:06:50

different views in Parliament, it's

that reflected in the Select

1:06:501:06:53

different views in Parliament, it's

Committee I have the honour to be

1:06:531:06:54

the chair of.

Thank you, we will

pick up some Brexit issues and some

1:06:541:06:58

the chair of.

Thank you, we will

more of what will be happening with

1:06:581:06:59

Brexit this week with the panel.

Isabel Oakeshott, Hilary Benn has a

1:06:591:07:03

Isabel Oakeshott, Hilary Benn has a

point, doesn't he, that his

1:07:031:07:05

committee is no war split and,

frankly, the Cabinet, the country or

1:07:051:07:09

both political parties are on this

matter?

I think that is a fair

1:07:091:07:14

both political parties are on this

but on the substantive

1:07:141:07:15

both political parties are on this

recommendation about delaying Brexit

1:07:151:07:16

further, I cannot see how that could

possibly strengthen our position to

1:07:161:07:21

have us begging for more time here.

I think the one thing that I am sure

1:07:211:07:27

you here, Hilary Benn, when you

1:07:271:07:28

I think the one thing that I am sure

on the

1:07:281:07:31

I think the one thing that I am sure

get on with this? People don't want

1:07:311:07:31

this process to be any more

elongated. If anything it just

1:07:311:07:36

this process to be any more

increases uncertainty for business.

1:07:361:07:38

Hillary.

Somebody summed this up

beautifully to me the other day, for

1:07:381:07:44

beautifully to me the other day, for

something that is apparently so

1:07:441:07:46

simple, it's really, really

complicated, isn't it? Over 45 years

1:07:461:07:49

we have built this network of

relationships, laws, the ways

1:07:491:07:54

we have built this network of

businesses operate. I was at a

1:07:541:07:56

conference of the creative

industries on Thursday and they are

1:07:561:08:00

concerned about intellectual

property and broadcasting into

1:08:001:08:02

concerned about intellectual

Europe, and the ability of musicians

1:08:021:08:03

to go on to travel. All sorts of

questions people have got from a

1:08:031:08:08

perfectly legitimate ones,

1:08:081:08:12

questions people have got from a

it is going to work and is not

1:08:121:08:12

entirely surprising, whatever the

frustration people feel, and I

1:08:121:08:14

recognise that, it will take time to

sort it out in a way that works for

1:08:141:08:18

sort it out in a way that works for

us. It's not about working for

1:08:181:08:20

us. It's not about working for

Europe, we want a deal that we can

1:08:201:08:22

both agree on, but it's got

1:08:221:08:25

Europe, we want a deal that we can

for us and look after our interests,

1:08:251:08:27

that's our job.

Lucy, David Davis is

1:08:271:08:30

for us and look after our interests,

on his way back to Brussels

1:08:301:08:31

for us and look after our interests,

negotiations trying to sign off with

1:08:311:08:32

Michel Barnier the transition period

of the deal there. What is the issue

1:08:321:08:39

that must be decided before the

1:08:391:08:44

of the deal there. What is the issue

the week?

The main stumbling block

1:08:441:08:44

is the Irish

1:08:441:08:45

the week?

The main stumbling block

Hillary pointed out.

1:08:451:08:48

the week?

The main stumbling block

position which goes some way to

1:08:481:08:50

solving the issue, which is

1:08:501:08:52

position which goes some way to

remain in the customs union.

A

1:08:521:08:56

position which goes some way to

customs union.

A customs union,

1:08:561:08:56

forgive me. It is hard to see how

that will be established in any kind

1:08:561:09:00

of technical, substantive way. We

will have to rely on good to

1:09:001:09:05

of technical, substantive way. We

past that at

1:09:051:09:07

of technical, substantive way. We

understanding is there are UK fears

1:09:071:09:10

of technical, substantive way. We

that Dublin may receive backing from

1:09:101:09:11

the Germans and French this week

that will cause more problems on

1:09:111:09:14

that but it is essential that the

transition deal is formally agreed

1:09:141:09:18

at the European Council this week

1:09:181:09:21

transition deal is formally agreed

for two reasons. Firstly, we need

1:09:211:09:22

transition deal is formally agreed

move the talks on to the trade

1:09:221:09:24

agreement, we want to reach. And

secondly, it

1:09:241:09:31

agreement, we want to reach. And

situation will be regarding the UK's

1:09:311:09:31

relationship with the EU up to

September 2020. This is the last

1:09:311:09:38

moment UK businesses have said

1:09:381:09:40

September 2020. This is the last

government can wait to give firm

1:09:401:09:42

signals on it before they revert

1:09:421:09:45

government can wait to give firm

contingency plans.

Hillary talks up

1:09:451:09:47

government can wait to give firm

negotiating leverage and we gave our

1:09:471:09:49

leveraged away when we invoked

Article 50 without pre-negotiations,

1:09:491:09:53

Article 50 without pre-negotiations,

because we put the clock on

1:09:531:09:53

ourselves. With and have two years

to negotiate everything and Michel

1:09:531:09:59

Barnier set the date and

1:09:591:10:01

to negotiate everything and Michel

then go to him to potentially

1:10:011:10:04

to negotiate everything and Michel

for more time and I think we have

1:10:041:10:04

really put ourselves

1:10:041:10:07

for more time and I think we have

position by doing that.

Given that

1:10:071:10:10

situation, would it be better to go,

situation, would it be better to go,

1:10:101:10:12

in your words, begging for more

in your words, begging for more

1:10:121:10:13

time, or

1:10:131:10:15

in your words, begging for more

that people's mines are concentrated

1:10:151:10:19

in your words, begging for more

on getting the deal done?

I think

1:10:191:10:20

the deadline, the date we are

supposed to be leaving,

1:10:201:10:23

the deadline, the date we are

the government in the withdrawal

1:10:231:10:23

bill for political reasons. I think

that was all performative really. I

1:10:231:10:28

don't think there is is Dummigan

reason why there cannot be

1:10:281:10:34

don't think there is is Dummigan

to. If we can

1:10:341:10:35

don't think there is is Dummigan

deal in the short term, there is no

1:10:351:10:37

reason why we can't, as Hilary said,

I now the details in the transition

1:10:371:10:42

period.

What other sticking points

on the withdrawal agreement? It

1:10:421:10:45

on the withdrawal agreement? It

seems David Davis is saying this

1:10:451:10:48

seems David Davis is saying this

week he is relaxed about a

1:10:481:10:49

transition

1:10:491:10:51

week he is relaxed about a

full two years, only up until

1:10:511:10:55

Christmas 2021. It feels a little

1:10:551:10:58

full two years, only up until

bit -- not lusting for a full two

1:10:581:11:00

years. When we get it is crunch

decisions with the withdrawal

1:11:001:11:04

years. When we get it is crunch

agreement and the negotiation

1:11:041:11:06

years. When we get it is crunch

transition agreement, that the UK

1:11:061:11:07

caves at the last minute. Where

1:11:071:11:11

transition agreement, that the UK

we see a win for the UK in these

1:11:111:11:13

transition agreement, that the UK

deadlines?

Every time we get abuse

1:11:131:11:13

crunch

1:11:131:11:16

deadlines?

Every time we get abuse

Parliament try and cause us to cave.

1:11:161:11:17

deadlines?

Every time we get abuse

That is a difficulty government has.

1:11:171:11:19

deadlines?

Every time we get abuse

It has been undermined by its own

1:11:191:11:22

deadlines?

Every time we get abuse

backbenchers, we have the Brexit

1:11:221:11:23

committee coming up with divided

1:11:231:11:25

backbenchers, we have the Brexit

reports suggesting more delay. I

1:11:251:11:27

think there will be massive push

back on that. I don't think

1:11:271:11:31

think there will be massive push

happen. There is no way any

1:11:311:11:32

extension of this time period is

acceptable to Theresa May's

1:11:321:11:37

extension of this time period is

Brexiteer MPs to whom she is in

1:11:371:11:39

hock, so that can't happen.

1:11:391:11:43

Brexiteer MPs to whom she is in

problem is, Matt, it is just going

1:11:431:11:43

to expand to fill

1:11:431:11:46

problem is, Matt, it is just going

available. We need these deadlines,

1:11:461:11:47

uncomfortable as they may be, and in

an ideal world we might

1:11:471:11:53

uncomfortable as they may be, and in

extra days here or there to fine

1:11:531:11:53

tune things, but ultimately nobody

on your side of the

1:11:531:11:57

tune things, but ultimately nobody

going to be happy with the time

1:11:571:11:59

frame. It will simply expand and

1:11:591:12:01

going to be happy with the time

expand and expand until the de facto

1:12:011:12:03

going to be happy with the time

we just stay in the.

Lucy,

1:12:031:12:06

going to be happy with the time

any prospect, given where

1:12:061:12:08

going to be happy with the time

the moment waiting to sign off

1:12:081:12:10

going to be happy with the time

deal on the transition, that we

1:12:101:12:11

going to be happy with the time

have a fully comprehensive trade

1:12:111:12:13

agreement in place by October to go

for ratification to the European

1:12:131:12:18

Parliament?

I think it's looking

1:12:181:12:20

for ratification to the European

increasingly unlikely and

1:12:201:12:21

for ratification to the European

lots of things that will not be

1:12:211:12:23

ready in time, today there are

1:12:231:12:26

lots of things that will not be

reports the Cabinet have been

1:12:261:12:26

reports the Cabinet have been

1:12:261:12:28

briefed on the fact that Customs and

reports the Cabinet have been

1:12:281:12:28

briefed on the fact that Customs and

border arrangements are not going to

1:12:281:12:30

be in place by Brexit day next

March. There is still a lot

1:12:301:12:36

be in place by Brexit day next

questions around that. Going back to

1:12:361:12:38

be in place by Brexit day next

the question of the polarisation in

1:12:381:12:39

Parliament, in the Cabinet, in the

Parliament, in the Cabinet, in the

1:12:391:12:41

country over Brexit and some

1:12:411:12:43

Parliament, in the Cabinet, in the

positions government has put

1:12:431:12:44

Parliament, in the Cabinet, in the

so far, there are still so many

1:12:441:12:46

so far, there are still so many

questions left unanswered. Theresa

1:12:461:12:47

May hasn't really filled in

1:12:471:12:51

questions left unanswered. Theresa

detail about what you would like to

1:12:511:12:51

see with trade and customs and

1:12:511:12:53

detail about what you would like to

question marks over how the

1:12:531:12:56

government envisages immigration

1:12:561:12:57

question marks over how the

working at the Brexit. A

1:12:571:13:01

question marks over how the

detail.

Thank you to all of my

1:13:011:13:02

guests, Lucy Fisher, Isabel

Oakeshott, Matt Zarb-Cousin is an

1:13:021:13:06

guests, Lucy Fisher, Isabel

Hilary Benn are still on the set.

1:13:061:13:08

Join me again next Sunday

at 11am here on BBC One.

1:13:081:13:11

Until then, bye-bye.

1:13:111:13:14

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