18/03/2018 Sunday Politics Wales


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18/03/2018

Sarah Smith and Arwyn Jones' guests are Sir Alan Duncan MP and Yvette Cooper MP. The political panel consists of Isabel Oakeshott, Matthew Zarb-Cousin and Lucy Fisher.


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LineFromTo

Morning, everyone, and welcome

to the Sunday Politics.

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I'm Sarah Smith.

will provide your essential briefing

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on everything that's moving

and shaking in the

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world of politics.

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The Foreign Secretary accuses Russia

of "smug sarcasm, denial,

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obfuscation and delay" in relation

to the Salisbury poisoning case.

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As the diplomatic dispute continues,

where will this crisis go next?

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Police launch a murder

inquiry in to the death

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of another Russian exile.

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We speak to the Chair of

the Home Affairs Select Committee.

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Should transgender women be included

on Labour's all-women short lists?

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The party postpones

a final decision.

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While a government consultation

on changing the law

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appears to be on hold.

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Has the debate on transgender

rights become toxic?

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Also coming up:

The ups and downs of two years as

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Welsh secretary, and market in your

diaries. Another devolution landmark

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on the way.

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to make sense of all the big

stories:

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Matt Zarb-Cousin, Isabel Oakeshott

and

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Now, Russia's Vladimir Putin has

already been out this

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morning to cast his vote

in the Presidential elections.

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We'll be expecting the result

in the Presidential elections.

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but you can probably guess

who the frontrunner is.

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It comes at the end of a week

in which UK-Russia relations turned

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positively sub-zero.

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President Putin.

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President Putin.

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Is Russia behind the poisoning

of Sergei Skripal?

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This week the finger of blame

for the Salisbury attack was

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pointed firmly in one direction.

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what actually happened

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there and then we'll talk about it.

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A deadline imposed by

the British government

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calling on the Russians to provide

answers came and went.

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The Prime Minister headed

to the Commons to update MPs.

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They have treated the use

of a military grade nerve agent

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in Europe with sarcasm,

contempt and defiance.

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The only conclusion, she declared,

was that the Russian state

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was responsible for the nerve agent

attack on the Russian double agent

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Sergei Skripal and his

daughter Yulia.

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23 Russian diplomats based

here accused of being spies are to

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be kicked out of the country.

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Moscow responded by

expelling 23 British

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embassy staff.

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UK-Russia relations are well

and truly in the deep freeze.

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The Prime Minister's

response to the crisis has

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won her some new fans.

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Hello.

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She got flowers and fist bumps

in Salisbury on Thursday.

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The Defence Secretary had his own

idiosyncratic message for Moscow.

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Frankly, Russia should go

away, it should shut up.

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Go away, it should shut up.

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The Foreign Secretary

escalated the row by going

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further and directly accusing

Vladimir Putin of personally

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ordering the poisoning.

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Our quarrel is with Putin's

Kremlin and with his

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decision, and we think it

overwhelmingly likely that it was

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his decision, to direct

the use of a nerve agent.

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Convention dictates

that parties often come

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together on major foreign policy

issues but Jeremy Corbyn is not a

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conventional politician.

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How has she responded to the Russian

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government's request for a sample

of the agent used in the Salisbury

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attack to run its own tests?

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Shameful!

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That did not go down

too well with some

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of his own MPs who tabled a motion

expressing their support for the

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Prime Minister's response.

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But Mr Corbyn held

his line, arguing in

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Friday's Guardian that we ought not

to discount the possibility that

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Russian mafia gangs could have

carried out the attack.

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Labour frontbenchers

not exactly been

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toeing that line.

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We fully support the Government's

action because we

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hold Russia responsible.

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There is no alternative

explanation other than

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that responsibility

lies with Russia.

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The US, France and Germany issued

a joint statement of support

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for the UK.

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It's a very sad situation.

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It certainly looks like

the Russians were behind it.

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Something that should

never ever happen.

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Today is election day in Russia.

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And this crisis seems unlikely

to hurt Putin's chances of

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re-election as Russia's President.

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So to pick up some of that news

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So to pick up some of that news

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Lucy, later this week the National

Security Council will meet to talk

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about what further action the UK

Government Meite, they briefed the

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about what further action the UK

BBC there is more in the locker,

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that was the phrase the useful

support any idea what they might do

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next?

There is a whole suite of

options available to the government,

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the idea of clamp-down on visas for

dubious Russian businessmen and

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dubious Russian businessmen and

their allies wanting to travel to

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the UK, there is talk on pulling the

the UK, there is talk on pulling the

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plug on RTE, the Kremlin backed

plug on RTE, the Kremlin backed

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broadcaster with Ruth Davidson

calling for that they. The most

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important action the government

could take is on the wealth, the

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Kremlin gold, and money

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could take is on the wealth, the

around the UK invested here by

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Russian oligarchs are linked to the

Kremlin.

Boss of people from Russian

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politician stomach opposition

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Kremlin.

Boss of people from Russian

politicians who think would be the

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most effective route. That's what

Labour are calling for and

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most effective route. That's what

action the government will go in.

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These are quite short-term measures.

These are quite short-term measures.

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What we're looking on with Russia is

a much wider, long-term problem.

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What a lot of people

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a much wider, long-term problem.

circles talk about is a more

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asymmetrical response,

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circles talk about is a more

than in addition to the measures

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Lucy has articulated, you need to

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than in addition to the measures

look at the whole suite of things in

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terms of the disinformation campaign

that Russia puts out, we need to

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that Russia puts out, we need to

look at where we can niggle

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that Russia puts out, we need to

by supporting Ukraine a bit,

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supporting states like Azerbaijan

and a much more hybrid response, I

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think.

Matt Zarb-Cousin

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and a much more hybrid response, I

has been a lot of discussion

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and a much more hybrid response, I

Jeremy Corbyn's response to this

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this week. I'm interested, you know

him well, give us an insight

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this week. I'm interested, you know

what he is thinking. He supports the

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Government's actions while not being

sure about the conclusion that the

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Russian state was responsible. Why

support what

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Russian state was responsible. Why

don't support the conclusion?

I

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think the Russian

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don't support the conclusion?

I

and the Labour Party recognises

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and the Labour Party recognises

that. I think we all agree that it

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isn't a proportionate response, it

goes nowhere near far enough if the

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Russian state is culpable, to just

expel 23 diplomats and say to the

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Royal family they are not going to

Royal family they are not going to

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the World Cup. So they have to find

out obviously if the Russian state

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is culpable, and then once they have

is culpable, and then once they have

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the evidence for that then obviously

build that international coalition

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where we can actually take

where we can actually take

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meaningful action, not these

meaningful action, not these

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tokenistic measures. Even closing

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meaningful action, not these

down Russia's Russia Today emboldens

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Putin, look at the West, they can

censor, he will say. What we really

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Putin, look at the West, they can

have to do is go after Putin's kind

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of circle. There is oligarchs here,

whether they are pro-or anti-Putin,

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who have been allowed to settle here

and stow away their

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who have been allowed to settle here

they have been affected by Putin. If

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they are then affected by

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they have been affected by Putin. If

we say you have to leave, then that

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is a very powerful coalition you

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we say you have to leave, then that

building against him.

But Jeremy

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Corbyn still isn't convinced that

the Russian state itself is

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responsible.

No, neither is the

government.

He wouldn't back these

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responsible.

No, neither is the

actions until they were proved.

It

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would be naive, it would

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actions until they were proved.

It

difficult to build an international

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coalition. Even the statement that

Germany France and the US

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coalition. Even the statement that

the joint statement, said the nerve

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the joint statement, said the nerve

agent was of a type developed by

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the joint statement, said the nerve

Russia, not that it was developed by

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Russia. It looks increasingly likely

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Russia, not that it was developed by

that that nerve agent came

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Russia, not that it was developed by

Russia and Russia have lost control

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of it, or have used it maliciously,

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Russia and Russia have lost control

but we don't know that yet and it's

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very difficult to take action until

very difficult to take action until

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we do.

There is a kind of false

dichotomy here in

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we do.

There is a kind of false

somehow elements of Russian Mafia

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might be responsible. Welcome

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somehow elements of Russian Mafia

potentially they could be, but the

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somehow elements of Russian Mafia

idea that the Russian Mafia

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some way completely distinct from

idea that the Russian Mafia

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some way completely distinct from

the Kremlin is a misunderstanding.

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some way completely distinct from

In a sense, the Russian Mafia is in

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extra typically linked to

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In a sense, the Russian Mafia is in

Kremlin. They are a sort of

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Kremlin. They are a sort of

paramilitary wing of the Kremlin so

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it is a false dichotomy.

Lucy,

it is a false dichotomy.

Lucy,

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Jeremy Corbyn has taken a lot

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it is a false dichotomy.

Lucy,

flak for his response this week.

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it is a false dichotomy.

Lucy,

Isn't it legitimate to be asking

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these questions when, as Matt says,

even the French, US and German

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governments don't seem this --

convinced this is state directed?

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convinced this is state directed?

Early in the week we saw some level

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of prevarication by Paris, Berlin

of prevarication by Paris, Berlin

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and Washington and that has firmed

up a lot. I think the quite

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unprecedented international joint

statement put out by those allies

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and the UK goes a lot further than

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statement put out by those allies

you say, Matt. I don't think it's as

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equivocal as perhaps

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you say, Matt. I don't think it's as

Some of the

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you say, Matt. I don't think it's as

asks will kind of strike a chord

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with much of the public. I think, in

particular, raising questions about

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the intelligence and exactly what is

known is something that

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the intelligence and exactly what is

be thinking about in light of the

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2003 Iraq War and some of the

evidence being politically sexed up,

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people want to know that that's not

people want to know that that's not

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the case here.

Briefly.

We don't

know exactly how much Jeremy Corbyn

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had access to in terms of

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know exactly how much Jeremy Corbyn

be that the government... Boris

0:10:030:10:05

Johnson and the Defence Secretary

Gavin Williamson have gone much

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Gavin Williamson have gone much

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further and said... Boris Johnson

said it is Putin.

Overwhelmingly

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likely.

Williamson said they should

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said it is Putin.

Overwhelmingly

shut up and go away, or whatever he

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said. That suggests to me they are

either going off message or they

0:10:170:10:20

either going off message or they

have seen more evidence that perhaps

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either going off message or they

Corbyn has not seen.

These are

0:10:230:10:25

either going off message or they

questions we will explore throughout

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the show and if you stay with

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questions we will explore throughout

will talk to you throughout the

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programme.

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Well, let's stick with this story

because the Foreign Secretary has

0:10:300:10:33

been speaking on the Andrew

Marr Show this morning.

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He was asked how the Government

could be certain that the Russian

0:10:350:10:38

Government was responsible

for the attack.

0:10:380:10:39

We actually have evidence within the

last ten years that

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We actually have evidence within the

only been investigating the delivery

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of nerve agents for the purposes of

assassination, but has also been

0:10:460:10:53

creating and stockpiling Novichok.

To the best of our knowledge, this

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is a Russian-made nerve agent that

falls within the category Novichok,

0:10:550:11:01

made only by Russia.

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I'm joined now by the Foreign Office

Minister Sir Alan Duncan.

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Thank you for talking to us this

morning. Russia have responded, as

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you know, to our expansion --

expulsion of 23 Russian diplomats by

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closing the consulate in St

Petersburg. Is there a second phase

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of government action that

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Petersburg. Is there a second phase

to be reintroduced in order to take

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Petersburg. Is there a second phase

this further?

We have lots of

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options. But this isn't just about

counting heads. This is really about

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options. But this isn't just about

making clear to the world

0:11:380:11:40

options. But this isn't just about

of the great achievements of the

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world since the Second World

0:11:410:11:44

of the great achievements of the

which is a convention to ban

0:11:440:11:45

which is a convention to ban

chemical weapons, has been

0:11:450:11:47

which is a convention to ban

And it is clearly traceable back to

0:11:470:11:52

a military grade nerve agent of

Russian origin. We said

0:11:520:11:56

a military grade nerve agent of

Russians either you did it directly

0:11:560:11:58

or you have lost control of this,

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Russians either you did it directly

tell us which. They basically just

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tell us which. They basically just

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stuck their tongue out at us. Their

irresponsible response to this

0:12:040:12:07

points ever more to them as having

done this, and so the response that

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we have done I think is

0:12:110:12:14

done this, and so the response that

proportionate. Yes, they

0:12:140:12:15

done this, and so the response that

responded back. But what

0:12:150:12:18

done this, and so the response that

more than anything else is not that

0:12:180:12:18

we now go into some kind of

tit-for-tat stuff by accounting

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exact numbers and things like that,

is that we actually corral the whole

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world to realise that Russia

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is that we actually corral the whole

totally out of order here and that

0:12:270:12:30

the Chemical Weapons Convention has

been violated in a way that could do

0:12:300:12:34

enormous damage to the world in any

enormous damage to the world in any

0:12:340:12:36

country this happens to happen in,

country this happens to happen in,

0:12:360:12:39

in this case the UK, and that

0:12:390:12:41

country this happens to happen in,

what we will do.

You are calling for

0:12:410:12:42

what we will do.

You are calling for

a concerted international action,

0:12:420:12:45

what would that look like?

We are

already very grateful to the very

0:12:450:12:50

clear response we have had from a

lot of countries. I

0:12:500:12:55

clear response we have had from a

Balkans over the weekend with

0:12:550:12:56

Balkans over the weekend with

countries like Macedonia and Kosovo,

0:12:560:12:59

and they were very, very clear in

0:12:590:13:01

countries like Macedonia and Kosovo,

their condemnation of this, because

0:13:010:13:02

they themselves are countries which

suffer from wider Russian

0:13:020:13:06

interference. But we have the EU

foreign ministers meeting tomorrow,

0:13:060:13:12

interference. But we have the EU

they will be a Prime Minister level

0:13:120:13:12

March European Council on Friday, we

have already had an open discussion

0:13:120:13:16

have already had an open discussion

in the UN at which the Russian

0:13:160:13:19

representative cut a very, very

lonely figure, and this is clearly a

0:13:190:13:22

representative cut a very, very

Russian violation of the Chemical

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Weapons Convention and we will

cooperate with the Organisation for

0:13:230:13:29

the Prohibition of Chemical

0:13:290:13:31

cooperate with the Organisation for

to prove even further what we

0:13:310:13:33

cooperate with the Organisation for

to be the case.

When it comes to

0:13:330:13:35

international action, a former UK

0:13:350:13:37

to be the case.

When it comes to

ambassador to Russia, agrees with

0:13:370:13:38

to be the case.

When it comes to

you that we need to take action

0:13:380:13:40

along with others and says the

sanctions imposed by the EU after

0:13:400:13:45

Crimea 2014 surprise

0:13:450:13:48

sanctions imposed by the EU after

continue to have an impact because

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they were EU wide, but went on to

0:13:490:13:51

continue to have an impact because

say Brexit has made Britain's task

0:13:510:13:54

harder in appealing for EU

0:13:540:13:57

say Brexit has made Britain's task

solidarity this week and the kind of

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international action you are looking

0:13:570:14:00

solidarity this week and the kind of

for.

I think that is total nonsense,

0:14:000:14:02

for.

I think that is total nonsense,

Brexit doesn't have an impact on

0:14:020:14:06

this and we are still part of the EU

0:14:060:14:10

and we operate EU sanctions

collaboratively and we're passing

0:14:100:14:12

collaboratively and we're

0:14:120:14:12

legislation through the House of

Commons which will give us

0:14:120:14:15

autonomous actions regime following

the departure from the EU, and we

0:14:150:14:18

will include in that what I hope

will be a firm

0:14:180:14:25

will include in that what I hope

statement from the House of Commons

0:14:250:14:26

that the Magnitsky clause, as people

have been campaigning for, will be

0:14:260:14:30

included in the sanctions and

anti-money-laundering Bill. And the

0:14:300:14:34

passage of this bill predated the

Salisbury incident, has always been

0:14:340:14:41

something we wanted the whole of the

0:14:410:14:44

Salisbury incident, has always been

House of Commons today,

0:14:440:14:45

Salisbury incident, has always been

something in a committee during

0:14:450:14:45

passage of the bill.

Labour tried to

introduce an amendment to that

0:14:450:14:51

passage of the bill.

Labour tried to

with the Magnitsky clause and you

0:14:510:14:51

wear minister in the Bill committee

that rejected those amendments two

0:14:510:14:54

weeks ago. -- you wear minister.

I

answer the question before you ask

0:14:540:15:01

the question, which is we wanted it

to be done on the whole floor of the

0:15:010:15:04

house and in the phrasing of the

amendment it wasn't consistent with

0:15:040:15:09

some of the other parts

0:15:090:15:12

amendment it wasn't consistent with

-- you were a minister. We have an

0:15:120:15:14

amendment it wasn't consistent with

understanding that we hope will be a

0:15:140:15:15

cross-party

0:15:150:15:18

understanding that we hope will be a

a clear message to the world that

0:15:180:15:18

understanding that we hope will be a

the House of Commons, along with

0:15:180:15:19

countries who have done it already,

will be aligned with the Magnitsky

0:15:190:15:24

proposal, which campaigners

0:15:240:15:30

The Magnitsky powers would allow you

to take actions against individuals

0:15:300:15:36

guilty of gross human rights

0:15:360:15:39

to take actions against individuals

violations. That doesn't allow you

0:15:390:15:40

to attack the money of Putin allies

to attack the money of Putin allies

0:15:400:15:45

unless you can find them guilty of

0:15:450:15:47

to attack the money of Putin allies

gross human rights violations so it

0:15:470:15:49

to attack the money of Putin allies

wouldn't really allow you

0:15:490:15:52

to attack the money of Putin allies

to this attack, would it?

Again, I'm

0:15:520:15:53

afraid you're totally wrong and

don't understand the wording of

0:15:530:15:57

afraid you're totally wrong and

bill because it is not only

0:15:570:15:59

afraid you're totally wrong and

human rights violations in the bill.

0:15:590:16:01

afraid you're totally wrong and

There are many purposes included

0:16:010:16:02

afraid you're totally wrong and

the list of things you can do under

0:16:020:16:04

the list of things you can do under

the legislation and it does include

0:16:040:16:06

what you have just described.

But

the powers the Government has

0:16:060:16:10

what you have just described.

But

already on going after things like

0:16:100:16:12

this, like unexplained wealth

orders, have been used only once

0:16:120:16:15

this, like unexplained wealth

since they were introduced. There

0:16:150:16:18

haven't been much evidence the

Government was serious

0:16:180:16:23

haven't been much evidence the

corrupt money brought in through

0:16:230:16:25

London.

That's

0:16:250:16:27

corrupt money brought in through

legislation has only recently come

0:16:270:16:27

in and of course it's not

0:16:270:16:29

legislation has only recently come

politicians who

0:16:290:16:31

legislation has only recently come

decisions. There's a distinction

0:16:310:16:32

between the liberal democracy in

which we live, where judges on

0:16:320:16:38

between the liberal democracy in

law take their course from

0:16:380:16:38

law take their course from

politicians. And what we think is

0:16:380:16:42

law take their course from

happening in Russia, which is not a

0:16:420:16:44

law take their course from

real democracy, we are looking at a

0:16:440:16:47

pretty odd election taking place

pretty odd election taking place

0:16:470:16:50

today where Vladimir Putin

0:16:500:16:52

pretty odd election taking place

undoubtedly be supposedly re-elected

0:16:520:16:52

for the fourth time. That is a deep

distinction between our values and

0:16:520:16:59

bears. One of the great values we

have seen in the world is the

0:16:590:17:02

creation of the chemical weapons

Convention. Jeremy Corbyn has always

0:17:020:17:07

been the great disarm and here we

have a violation of the ideological,

0:17:070:17:12

have a violation of the ideological,

the sort of principled convention

0:17:120:17:14

that has been built up over many

decades, violated in our

0:17:140:17:18

that has been built up over many

country, which is why I think many

0:17:180:17:20

country, which is why I think many

young people are disappointed with

0:17:200:17:25

his response.

Ben Wallace,

0:17:250:17:26

young people are disappointed with

security minister,

0:17:260:17:27

young people are disappointed with

allowed nasty individuals to come to

0:17:270:17:30

the City of London and launder

0:17:300:17:32

allowed nasty individuals to come to

illicit money. That sounds like an

0:17:320:17:34

allowed nasty individuals to come to

admission that until now

0:17:340:17:36

allowed nasty individuals to come to

Government hasn't been doing

0:17:360:17:37

allowed nasty individuals to come to

to tackle corrupt money in London.

I

0:17:370:17:41

allowed nasty individuals to come to

think we are amassing the powers to

0:17:410:17:42

tackle exactly the kind of issue he

has identified, and indeed Ben

0:17:420:17:48

Wallace is the security

0:17:480:17:50

has identified, and indeed Ben

has been supporting this, pressing

0:17:500:17:52

has been supporting this, pressing

for it and administering it from the

0:17:520:17:55

Home Office point of view. We

0:17:550:17:58

for it and administering it from the

to make a proper distinction though

0:17:580:17:59

to make a proper distinction though

without compromising

0:17:590:18:01

to make a proper distinction though

between those who are guilty and

0:18:010:18:03

to make a proper distinction though

those who are not. Not every

0:18:030:18:05

oligarch is guilty and not every

rich Russian is necessarily a crony

0:18:050:18:11

of Putin and someone who

0:18:110:18:14

rich Russian is necessarily a crony

subject to sanctions so we need to

0:18:140:18:15

approach this without compromising

our values. But there is something

0:18:150:18:19

our values. But there is something

much more important than this, what

0:18:190:18:21

really matters is the world needs to

0:18:210:18:24

much more important than this, what

realise that if we allow chemical

0:18:240:18:25

weapons to slip into use any more

that's happened now, we will live in

0:18:250:18:29

weapons to slip into use any more

a much more dangerous world and one

0:18:290:18:32

weapons to slip into use any more

which is tearing up the rule

0:18:320:18:36

weapons to slip into use any more

throwing away the chemical weapons

0:18:360:18:36

Convention which has been in place

for so many decades, indeed it

0:18:360:18:41

Convention which has been in place

one of the

0:18:410:18:43

Convention which has been in place

achievements of the post war world

0:18:430:18:44

achievements of the post war world

that we put this in place so we have

0:18:440:18:47

to the robust in pointing the finger

at Russia and

0:18:470:18:55

to the robust in pointing the finger

by the use of chemical weapons is

0:18:550:18:57

by the use of chemical weapons is

simply not acceptable.

Thank you for

0:18:570:19:00

Well, earlier this week the police

announced that they were launching

0:19:000:19:02

a murder inquiry in to the death

of another Russian businessman

0:19:020:19:04

living in Britain.

0:19:040:19:05

A pathologist's report says

Nikolai Glushkov died

0:19:050:19:07

of "compression to the neck"

after being found dead

0:19:070:19:10

at his home on Monday.

0:19:100:19:10

The Metropolitan Police say

there is no evidence to suggest

0:19:100:19:13

a link to the attempted murder

of Sergei and Yulia Skripal.

0:19:130:19:15

But the Home Office has announced it

will investigate a number

0:19:150:19:18

of other unexplained deaths

following the Skripal case.

0:19:180:19:20

Yvette Cooper is the Chair of

The Home Affairs Select Committee.

0:19:200:19:26

You specifically asked the Home

Secretary to investigate 14 other

0:19:290:19:33

deaths that you are worried may have

0:19:330:19:36

Secretary to investigate 14 other

had Russian involvement, do you have

0:19:360:19:38

much evidence for that?

My concern

is that any area where there are

0:19:380:19:43

much evidence for that?

My concern

allegations that there may have been

0:19:430:19:47

either Russian involvement or

suspicious circumstances that may

0:19:470:19:50

either Russian involvement or

need to be investigated should be,

0:19:500:19:52

either Russian involvement or

because I think we have to

0:19:520:19:54

either Russian involvement or

full facts. There was a BuzzFeed

0:19:540:19:55

investigation that made allegations

about 14 cases, there are other

0:19:550:20:01

investigation that made allegations

concerns raised about others.

0:20:010:20:03

investigation that made allegations

not for me to judge the individual

0:20:030:20:05

circumstances, my concern is these

cases, where there have been

0:20:050:20:11

circumstances, my concern is these

preliminary conclusions of suicide

0:20:110:20:12

or natural causes or accident, that

actually there may be further

0:20:120:20:17

evidence of more suspicious

circumstances, they should now be

0:20:170:20:21

reviewed by the Home

0:20:210:20:23

circumstances, they should now be

police.

The Home Office have said

0:20:230:20:24

they will do that but if you look at

the the case of someone who died in

0:20:240:20:32

2012, Surrey police says they will

not reinvestigate so will they be

0:20:320:20:38

2012, Surrey police says they will

able to cover new evidence?

I assume

0:20:380:20:39

able to cover new evidence?

I assume

the Home Office will assure there is

0:20:390:20:43

able to cover new evidence?

I assume

a review of all of these cases. The

0:20:430:20:44

Home Office Secretary will want to

0:20:440:20:46

a review of all of these cases. The

satisfy herself that every corner

0:20:460:20:48

has been looked into and

0:20:480:20:50

satisfy herself that every corner

been done properly and we get to the

0:20:500:20:53

satisfy herself that every corner

bottom of this. I do accept the

0:20:530:20:55

priority for them at

0:20:550:20:57

bottom of this. I do accept the

be this current investigation and

0:20:570:21:00

bottom of this. I do accept the

the current circumstances in

0:21:000:21:00

Salisbury and where those

investigations lead, but they will

0:21:000:21:05

need I think to follow up by

0:21:050:21:08

investigations lead, but they will

at these other cases as well.

So you

0:21:080:21:10

have any doubt that

0:21:100:21:13

at these other cases as well.

So you

Salisbury was directed by the

0:21:130:21:15

Russian state?

I share the

conclusions

0:21:150:21:19

Russian state?

I share the

and British government that it is

0:21:190:21:22

implausible the Russian state wasn't

0:21:220:21:25

and British government that it is

Jeremy Corbyn is wrong when he says

0:21:250:21:27

it is either the Russian state or a

chemical weapon that got

0:21:270:21:34

it is either the Russian state or a

control and into other people's

0:21:340:21:35

it is either the Russian state or a

hands?

We don't

0:21:350:21:37

it is either the Russian state or a

individuals caused the attack and

0:21:370:21:38

how the nerve agent was

0:21:380:21:41

individuals caused the attack and

the country, we also don't know

0:21:410:21:42

the country, we also don't know

which bit of the Russian state was

0:21:420:21:46

particularly involved, but I

0:21:460:21:47

which bit of the Russian state was

the clear evidence, the way in which

0:21:470:21:49

the Russian government has been

behaving since this happened really

0:21:490:21:55

is not the behaviour of a government

0:21:550:21:57

behaving since this happened really

that is saying we weren't involved

0:21:570:21:59

and we want to help get to the

bottom of this because we take it

0:21:590:22:03

seriously. This morning the Russian

Embassy has been tweeting

0:22:030:22:12

Embassy has been tweeting pictures

of Hercule Poirot.

So are you

0:22:140:22:21

embarrassed by Jeremy Corbyn saying

there isn't enough evidence to link

0:22:210:22:25

this to the Kremlin?

This morning

this to the Kremlin?

This morning

0:22:250:22:28

John McDonnell said we should

condemn the Russian government for

0:22:280:22:31

the way it's behaved on this, and

the way it's behaved on this, and

0:22:310:22:34

that the Russian government is

responsible, and I agreed with him,

0:22:340:22:37

and he went further than Theresa

0:22:370:22:40

responsible, and I agreed with him,

by pointing the finger at Putin,

0:22:400:22:44

something similar to what Boris

something similar to what Boris

0:22:440:22:46

Johnson has said, so I think there's

a recognition that even though

0:22:460:22:51

Johnson has said, so I think there's

don't know which individual

0:22:510:22:52

Johnson has said, so I think there's

delivered the nerve agent there is

0:22:520:22:54

responsibility here in the Russian

0:22:540:22:57

delivered the nerve agent there is

state and I think some part of the

0:22:570:22:59

security service is what we expect

as well.

It was clear in the House

0:22:590:23:03

of Commons this week there were

senior Labour MPs like yourself

0:23:030:23:08

uncomfortable with Jeremy Corbyn's

position. There's also been reports

0:23:080:23:13

uncomfortable with Jeremy Corbyn's

this has been seen as a watershed

0:23:130:23:16

moment by some moderate Labour MPs

wondering what they are doing in

0:23:160:23:20

Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party and

revived talk of a breakaway party,

0:23:200:23:24

is that something you have heard

about?

I think this is a load of

0:23:240:23:32

rubbish. I have not heard this so I

rubbish. I have not heard this so I

0:23:320:23:35

think this is in danger of

spiralling ever outwards and we are

0:23:350:23:42

also in danger of making this an

issue about domestic politics at a

0:23:420:23:44

also in danger of making this an

time when there is very

0:23:440:23:46

also in danger of making this an

international issues here that we

0:23:460:23:47

international issues here that we

should be focusing on and coming

0:23:470:23:49

together to focus on as well.

That's

0:23:490:23:51

should be focusing on and coming

why it becomes a domestic issue

0:23:510:23:53

why it becomes a domestic issue

because it's at times like this you

0:23:530:23:54

might expect the leader of

0:23:540:24:00

because it's at times like this you

opposition to back-up the Prime

0:24:000:24:01

Minister, you were clearly

uncomfortable with the way

0:24:010:24:03

Minister, you were clearly

not do that, so it has consequences

0:24:030:24:05

Minister, you were clearly

within the Labour Party.

As I

0:24:050:24:06

within the Labour Party.

As I

understand it, Jeremy has said that

0:24:060:24:09

the evidence points to wash, that

also he supports all of the measures

0:24:090:24:14

the evidence points to wash, that

and that's really

0:24:140:24:19

and that's really important that you

have unanimity about the actions

0:24:200:24:20

that need

0:24:200:24:23

have unanimity about the actions

for further action around the

0:24:230:24:25

economic sanctions. They understand

0:24:250:24:27

for further action around the

he wanted to wait for further

0:24:270:24:28

evidence before going further and

criticising the Russian government.

0:24:280:24:33

Obviously John McDonnell has

0:24:330:24:37

criticising the Russian government.

criticised the Russian government

0:24:370:24:37

today, but I'm not going to

criticise Jeremy for taking

0:24:370:24:41

today, but I'm not going to

slightly different view

0:24:410:24:42

today, but I'm not going to

think there's been too much

0:24:420:24:44

temperature in this and you have

heard people being called warmongers

0:24:440:24:47

for condemning the Russian state,

you've also heard people being

0:24:470:24:52

called appeasers for asking further

questions.

0:24:520:25:00

questions. None of that helps. We

are not talking about military

0:25:020:25:05

action, we are talking about

0:25:050:25:08

are not talking about military

I hope there can be unanimity about

0:25:080:25:09

what

0:25:090:25:11

Yvonne Cooper, thank you. I will

just pick up some of that with the

0:25:110:25:14

panel. Lucy Fisher, it was clear

listening to Yvette Cooper, and

0:25:140:25:19

Shami Chakrabarti, very much in the

Labour Party people who seemed to

0:25:190:25:24

Shami Chakrabarti, very much in the

at odds at the beginning of the week

0:25:240:25:24

at odds at the beginning of the week

as saying there is nothing to see

0:25:240:25:26

here, is that true?

I'm not entirely

0:25:260:25:32

as saying there is nothing to see

convinced, I think this has opened

0:25:320:25:34

as saying there is nothing to see

up old wounds in the Labour Party,

0:25:340:25:36

the front bench has been strained by

this response, and while we were

0:25:360:25:40

the front bench has been strained by

talking about how some of

0:25:400:25:43

the front bench has been strained by

questions he has asked are valid,

0:25:430:25:44

tonally I think the response has

0:25:440:25:46

questions he has asked are valid,

upset a lot of Labour MPs, including

0:25:460:25:50

those who have called for the

Commons to unequivocally condemn the

0:25:500:25:53

Russian state.

Matt Zarb Cousin,

Labour has been

0:25:530:26:08

Labour has been calling for -- the

0:26:080:26:10

Government have been calling for

Magnitsky clauses, exactly what

0:26:100:26:15

Government have been calling for

Jeremy Corbyn called forth. Were you

0:26:150:26:15

Jeremy Corbyn called forth. Were you

satisfied with what you heard from

0:26:150:26:20

from Alan Duncan?

No, they are

watered down compared to what Jeremy

0:26:200:26:23

Corbyn had in the manifesto in

0:26:230:26:28

watered down compared to what Jeremy

last election. I think there is an

0:26:280:26:28

agreement among the Labour Party now

0:26:280:26:31

last election. I think there is an

and the front bench particularly

0:26:310:26:33

last election. I think there is an

that the Russian state is culpable

0:26:330:26:34

last election. I think there is an

and that is shared across the house.

0:26:340:26:36

You are still couple books under the

chemicals weapons Convention if

0:26:360:26:42

You are still couple books under the

lose control of the nerve agent,

0:26:420:26:45

which is what

0:26:450:26:48

lose control of the nerve agent,

Conservative government is serious

0:26:480:26:50

lose control of the nerve agent,

about financial powers in order to

0:26:500:26:52

lose control of the nerve agent,

target corrupt money? David Cameron

0:26:520:26:53

said one of his great regrets is

that he never introduced me

0:26:530:26:57

Magnitsky powers, the Government say

they will go ahead with it, is it

0:26:570:27:02

powers they will use in a meaningful

way?

I think they are absolutely

0:27:020:27:08

way?

I think they are absolutely

serious. The national security

0:27:080:27:09

adviser said he understands this, as

does the intelligence minister Ben

0:27:090:27:14

Wallace, they have already used

these new powers about freezing the

0:27:140:27:19

assets on unexplained wealth. A

fairly new measure which has already

0:27:190:27:25

been implemented in at least one

case as I understand it. I want to

0:27:250:27:30

come back on your comments, you

0:27:300:27:31

case as I understand it. I want to

the Labour Party is singing as one,

0:27:310:27:34

I don't pick that

0:27:340:27:37

the Labour Party is singing as one,

rhetoric. I felt Yvette Cooper was

0:27:370:27:40

extraordinarily diplomatic, but

0:27:400:27:41

rhetoric. I felt Yvette Cooper was

trying to paper over serious cracks

0:27:410:27:44

within the Parliamentary party about

Labour's position on this. It is

0:27:440:27:49

clear Jeremy Corbyn doubts the

intelligence on it.

It is not the

0:27:490:27:53

intelligence he doubts, it is

0:27:530:27:55

intelligence on it.

It is not the

way the intelligence has been

0:27:550:27:57

interpreted by

0:27:570:28:00

way the intelligence has been

I'm talking about intelligence he

0:28:000:28:00

perhaps hasn't seen so we don't know

0:28:000:28:06

how much he has seen. Theresa May,

as Lucy's story showed this week,

0:28:060:28:08

hasn't necessarily shown the Leader

0:28:080:28:11

as Lucy's story showed this week,

of the Opposition and chief of staff

0:28:110:28:12

everything. It is the same as Iraq

in a sense. It is not the

0:28:120:28:17

everything. It is the same as Iraq

intelligence itself necessarily, it

0:28:170:28:20

everything. It is the same as Iraq

is how the Government uses the

0:28:200:28:20

intelligence, and that's when it

comes back to the nerve agent being

0:28:200:28:24

intelligence, and that's when it

of a type developed by Russia.

0:28:240:28:29

OK, talking of cracks in the Labour

OK, talking of cracks in the Labour

0:28:290:28:31

Party we have another

0:28:310:28:34

On Tuesday the Labour Party

were expected to rubber

0:28:340:28:36

stamp their support for transgender

women to be included

0:28:360:28:39

on all-women short lists.

0:28:390:28:40

But this programme has learned that

that announcement has been delayed

0:28:400:28:42

so that arguments on all sides

can be heard.

0:28:420:28:44

The rights of the transgender

community have also become part

0:28:440:28:47

of a wider conversation

in Westminster after the government

0:28:470:28:49

backed calls to simplify the legal

process to for someone

0:28:490:28:51

to change their gender.

0:28:510:28:52

Greg Dawson reports.

0:28:520:28:55

This is Heather Peto.

0:28:570:28:59

I've always known I'm a woman,

it's when I became a teenager that

0:28:590:29:03

I really sort of like felt

the pressure to be who I was.

0:29:030:29:06

And, at the next general election,

she wants to make political history.

0:29:060:29:11

I'd like to be one of the first

she wants to make political history.

0:29:110:29:15

But that ambition has

propelled her and others

0:29:150:29:17

to the centre of a significant row

in the Labour Party

0:29:170:29:20

after she was included

on an all women's short list

0:29:200:29:23

as a Parliamentary candidate.

0:29:230:29:29

I don't think it's an

0:29:290:29:30

I don't think it's an issue to be

honest. I think the local party

0:29:300:29:35

decides and the best candidates will

get through so I don't think

0:29:350:29:39

decides and the best candidates will

an issue. I think it's being made

0:29:390:29:43

decides and the best candidates will

issue by some people that are more

0:29:430:29:44

anti-transgender, but local people

0:29:440:29:45

issue by some people that are more

don't seem

0:29:450:29:50

onto all women's short lists

but that policy has recently

0:29:500:29:51

come under attack.

feminists who descended

0:29:510:29:55

on Parliament this week

for a meeting they titled

0:29:550:29:58

"transgender and the war on women".

0:29:580:30:04

They've been described

as transphobic, a label they reject.

0:30:050:30:08

I can see already there

are trans-identifying

0:30:080:30:10

men cynically use -

what I feel - are cynically

0:30:100:30:13

using those positions.

0:30:130:30:18

You've got Heather Peto who is

the trans-inclusionary officer

0:30:180:30:20

of the Labour Party,

he went on to an all

0:30:200:30:23

women's short list.

0:30:230:30:24

The fact that you are referencing

Heather as 'he' against her wishes

0:30:240:30:27

preferred pronouns.

0:30:290:30:34

Once we start using she for a man,

we are blurring the distinction.

0:30:340:30:37

Venice Allan is a Labour member

but those views got her suspended.

0:30:370:30:41

She knows what she says is offensive

to the trans community

0:30:410:30:44

but makes no apology for it.

0:30:440:30:49

I really do want to have this

conversation, like I say,

0:30:490:30:52

you don't have to agree with us

but you do have to listen to us.

0:30:520:30:56

Like the Labour Party, you know,

they're not listening.

0:30:560:30:58

I've tried to set up Momentum

events, Labour events, I've tried

0:30:580:31:01

to meet with Jeremy Corbyn

and other politicians.

0:31:010:31:04

Labour were supposed to formally

clarify their support for trans

0:31:040:31:10

women on all-women short

lists at a meeting at the

0:31:100:31:12

party's HQ this week.

would have triggered

0:31:120:31:16

the resignations of more

than 200 female members.

0:31:160:31:18

Then yesterday, Labour told us

that formal discussion

0:31:180:31:19

was delayed until June.

0:31:190:31:22

This is all a precursor to a much

wider political debate

0:31:230:31:27

going on with the Government

committing to update

0:31:270:31:29

the Gender Recognition Act.

0:31:290:31:31

As the Prime Minister has explained,

the changes would allow people

0:31:310:31:34

to self define their gender

without the need for

0:31:340:31:37

medical diagnosis.

0:31:370:31:39

We have set out plans to reform

the Gender Recognition Act,

0:31:390:31:42

streamlining and demedicalising

the process for changing gender,

0:31:420:31:45

because being trans is not

an illness and it shouldn't be

0:31:450:31:47

treated as such.

0:31:470:31:53

Since she made that speech

at the Pink Awards last October,

0:31:550:32:01

progress on those changes

to the Gender Recognition Act seems

0:32:010:32:04

to have slowed down.

0:32:040:32:09

I've asked the Government what's

going on and they just say in this

0:32:090:32:13

very short statement that

a consultation will be published

0:32:130:32:15

in due course, but no date given.

0:32:150:32:19

And our various requests to speak

to politicians both in favour

0:32:190:32:23

and opposed to these changes

were all turned down, which came

0:32:230:32:26

as little surprise to some.

politicians who have

0:32:260:32:30

questions about this,

who have doubts about it,

0:32:300:32:32

who don't dare express those doubts,

raise those questions,

0:32:320:32:38

because they are worried that

if they do they will be screamed at,

0:32:380:32:42

they will be accused of bigotry

and transphobia simply

0:32:420:32:44

for asking questions.

0:32:440:32:46

James Kirkup has written a number

of columns on the updates to the act

0:32:460:32:49

and isn't sure it's been

properly thought through.

0:32:490:32:51

There are questions about access

to safe spaces for women

0:32:510:32:56

in domestic violence refuges,

there are questions

0:32:560:32:58

about the collection,

collation of statistics

0:32:580:33:00

on crime, on pay.

0:33:000:33:04

Questions that should be asked,

debated, discussed and answered.

0:33:040:33:07

Heather Peto says the changes

debated, discussed and answered.

0:33:070:33:14

and hopes she can one day speak up

for the rights of the

0:33:140:33:16

trans-community from the benches

of the House of Commons.

0:33:160:33:19

As a feminist, I would stand up

to that and say, no,

0:33:190:33:21

I will just be who I am.

0:33:210:33:24

I have the self-confidence that I'm

a woman and I always have been,

0:33:240:33:26

and people should just

accept me for that.

0:33:260:33:32

The two chip significant issues

pick about bout the Labour Party and

0:33:320:33:36

the Government's

0:33:360:33:39

pick about bout the Labour Party and

transgender rights, let me start

0:33:390:33:39

transgender rights, let me start

with you, Matt -- two significant

0:33:390:33:44

transgender rights, let me start

issues. The government is

0:33:440:33:48

transgender rights, let me start

terrible tangle on transgender women

0:33:480:33:48

on all women short lists and they've

had to put it off until June.

Self

0:33:480:33:54

identifying trans-woman has never

been disbarred from being on a

0:33:540:33:57

women's short list in the

0:33:570:34:02

been disbarred from being on a

selection. The consultation was, as

0:34:020:34:03

I understand it, coming up with a

0:34:030:34:06

selection. The consultation was, as

form of words...

Clarifying the

0:34:060:34:09

position that trans-women are

elaborate rules to be on all women

0:34:090:34:11

short lists, it

0:34:110:34:13

elaborate rules to be on all women

around the party with two prominent

0:34:130:34:15

elaborate rules to be on all women

members threatening to resign if

0:34:150:34:16

elaborate rules to be on all women

that warning is put in, that

0:34:160:34:19

elaborate rules to be on all women

party has been bucking the

0:34:190:34:19

elaborate rules to be on all women

and kicking it into

0:34:190:34:22

elaborate rules to be on all women

The conversations I have had with

0:34:220:34:24

the leader's of this suggest

0:34:240:34:26

The conversations I have had with

not the case, they are

0:34:260:34:28

The conversations I have had with

consulting on it and exactly what

0:34:280:34:28

consulting on it and exactly what

the form of words will be there is

0:34:280:34:30

no actual plan as far as I'm aware

to stop trans-women self identifying

0:34:300:34:37

no actual plan as far as I'm aware

and being on a women's short list.

0:34:370:34:38

Can I ask how many trans-women are

0:34:380:34:40

and being on a women's short list.

applying to be on all women short

0:34:400:34:42

lists?

I'm not sure.

I suspect it is

zero.

Heather Peto is one of them in

0:34:420:34:49

zero.

Heather Peto is one of them in

the film, there may be several.

0:34:490:34:52

There may be but I suspect it is

less than the number of women on

0:34:520:34:58

this.

0:34:580:35:00

Not from any disparaging how

difficult it must be to be in

0:35:030:35:06

Not from any disparaging how

situation. There would

0:35:060:35:08

Not from any disparaging how

way of resolving the switch would

0:35:080:35:10

Not from any disparaging how

not to have all women short lists

0:35:100:35:12

Not from any disparaging how

and select the best candidates for

0:35:120:35:13

the job.

It is also about whether

Labour MPs have access to the

0:35:130:35:20

leadership programme, whether they

can stand as women's officers in

0:35:200:35:24

local parties. What Labour did

0:35:240:35:26

can stand as women's officers in

they jumped the gun by saying it is

0:35:260:35:28

fine, or self identifying

trans-women can have access to these

0:35:280:35:33

full rights. I think it is quite

welcome to have a

0:35:330:35:37

full rights. I think it is quite

Politics is the art of persuasion

0:35:370:35:39

and there was no real attempt

0:35:390:35:41

Politics is the art of persuasion

Labour leadership to bring the

0:35:410:35:41

party, bring some of the feminist...

There are radical feminists in the

0:35:410:35:46

party who will take more than a bit

of gentle persuasion to

0:35:460:35:50

party who will take more than a bit

accustomed to the idea

0:35:500:35:51

party who will take more than a bit

who were born men should be

0:35:510:35:53

party who will take more than a bit

all women short list.

That's right

0:35:530:35:54

but as we saw in the VT they are

asking for an opportunity to be

0:35:540:36:03

heard and the debate to be had so it

0:36:050:36:07

asking for an opportunity to be

is quite welcome there will be a

0:36:070:36:09

consultation.

It's not just

0:36:090:36:11

is quite welcome there will be a

kicked on this issue

0:36:110:36:13

is quite welcome there will be a

know what happened to the

0:36:130:36:14

Government's consultation

0:36:140:36:18

or woman. That's going to be a

difficult one for the government.

0:36:180:36:18

Remember the

0:36:180:36:20

difficult one for the government.

toy party that David Cameron fought

0:36:200:36:20

difficult one for the government.

over gay marriage.

Absolutely and

0:36:200:36:21

this is even much

0:36:210:36:23

over gay marriage.

Absolutely and

and a sensitive issue.

0:36:230:36:25

over gay marriage.

Absolutely and

and I've been guilty of it myself to

0:36:250:36:27

and I've been guilty of it myself to

get the language are wrong on this,

0:36:270:36:29

to upset people, and I can

0:36:290:36:34

get the language are wrong on this,

imagine the Prime Minister's qualms

0:36:340:36:35

about opening this can of worms

about opening this can of worms

0:36:350:36:39

within her own party, where there

will be people who

0:36:390:36:42

within her own party, where there

off message about it. It seems they

0:36:420:36:46

are pushing agendas are long

0:36:460:36:49

off message about it. It seems they

and there are bigger issues to worry

0:36:490:36:50

off message about it. It seems they

about.

You are talking about 2000 or

0:36:500:36:52

3000 people in a party of 650,000.

It is a rounding error.

In the

0:36:520:36:59

3000 people in a party of 650,000.

Labour Party, you're talking about?

0:36:590:37:00

3000 people in a party of 650,000.

It is not splitting the party, it is

0:37:000:37:02

3000 people in a party of 650,000.

a small minority of women who don't

0:37:020:37:05

3000 people in a party of 650,000.

believe in trans-rights, that's it.

0:37:050:37:06

Interesting to hear Theresa

0:37:060:37:08

believe in trans-rights, that's it.

talking about the Government's

0:37:080:37:09

consultation. That was a clear

statement she made

0:37:090:37:12

consultation. That was a clear

conference saying she wanted

0:37:120:37:14

consultation. That was a clear

streamline this and trans-wasn't a

0:37:140:37:16

mental health issue, she made a

0:37:160:37:19

streamline this and trans-wasn't a

strong commitment

0:37:190:37:21

streamline this and trans-wasn't a

and she didn't have to do that.

She

0:37:210:37:22

and she didn't have to do that.

She

didn't at all and

0:37:220:37:26

and she didn't have to do that.

She

she went as far as that. It is not

0:37:260:37:28

unprecedented. Ireland, Argentina,

0:37:280:37:30

she went as far as that. It is not

Colombia and Malta have changed

0:37:300:37:31

their processes to deep apologise it

0:37:310:37:33

Colombia and Malta have changed

so it is merely a legal process and

0:37:330:37:35

that is what the

0:37:350:37:38

so it is merely a legal process and

getting at. My understanding is for

0:37:380:37:40

a person to legally change their

0:37:400:37:42

getting at. My understanding is for

gender they have to live as their

0:37:420:37:44

desired gender for two years and

they have to have psychiatric

0:37:440:37:47

they have to have

0:37:470:37:48

evaluations and medical opinions

they have to have

0:37:480:37:48

evaluations and medical opinions

from two doctors and tests that some

0:37:480:37:50

have claimed are incredibly

traumatising. It can be made legal

0:37:500:37:59

process from precedents aboard.

We

0:37:590:38:00

traumatising. It can be made legal

will carry

0:38:000:38:03

traumatising. It can be made legal

throughout the programme.

0:38:030:38:03

It's coming up to 11:40am,

you're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:38:030:38:05

Still to come -

0:38:050:38:06

There is a big row brewing

in the Brexit Select Committee

0:38:060:38:09

and I'll be talking to its Chairman

- Hilary Benn.

0:38:090:38:11

First though, it's time for

the Sunday Politics where you are.

0:38:110:38:13

I see this role is

0:38:130:38:19

-- welcome to Sunday Politics.

Coming up. The first Welsh taxes for

0:38:240:38:31

800 years will kick in next month.

Are we ready? And could last

0:38:310:38:37

vehicles be an alternative to the

Swansea Bay metal? First, Alex

0:38:370:38:42

Kearns has been well secretary for

two years, with Brexit and other

0:38:420:38:48

opportunities crossing his desk. I

asked him how he thought things had

0:38:480:38:50

been going when I met him.

Well, it has been a fantastic

0:38:500:38:55

privilege in the first instance. I

wanted to play my part in bringing a

0:38:550:38:59

much warmer relationship, more

constructive relationship, between

0:38:590:39:02

the Welsh and UK Government. Funding

was a key issue. People in Wales

0:39:020:39:07

have rightly been complaining for

some time there needed to be in new

0:39:070:39:11

funding settlement, and I think that

is one of the most significant

0:39:110:39:14

outcomes. Overall, it is about

getting people to understand that

0:39:140:39:19

there are two governmentus in Wales,

one that act in the devolved area,

0:39:190:39:23

the Welsh Government, and then in

reserve spaces there is the UK

0:39:230:39:26

government, which is also relevant

to people working in Wales.

This

0:39:260:39:30

time last year, the big

accomplishments were Wales Act,

0:39:300:39:40

physical framework, mobile coverage

and business support. In the year

0:39:400:39:42

since then, what would you say are

the big things you have achieved?

It

0:39:420:39:48

is a central part around Brexit. The

referendum, are outcome of that, was

0:39:480:39:54

a surprise to many. We have an

obligation to act on that

0:39:540:39:57

instruction, because Wales voted to

leave. It has made the role of the

0:39:570:40:00

Secretary of State for Wales much

more exciting and central to the

0:40:000:40:03

thinking of government process.

There are several Brexit committees.

0:40:030:40:09

I specialise in the one in trade and

the one in domestic preparations, as

0:40:090:40:15

well as economic affairs. That has

enabled me to ensure that the UK

0:40:150:40:20

government represents every part of

the United Kingdom. Wales is my

0:40:200:40:24

interest, as it moves forward in

preparations to leave the EU.

It is

0:40:240:40:29

interesting that you say the

relationships between the two

0:40:290:40:32

governments have been a step

forward, Brexit, because you could

0:40:320:40:35

argue... With the repeal Bill and

so-called power grab from the UK

0:40:350:40:40

Government, as the Welsh Government

would call it, that actually

0:40:400:40:42

relations have been under a lot of

pressure between the two.

Let's go

0:40:420:40:46

back to the Wills bill, Wales act.

There were many journalists, maybe

0:40:460:40:52

you included, who suggested that I

would never get agreement between

0:40:520:40:55

the UK Government and Welsh

Government. It was only by hard work

0:40:550:40:59

and determination that we succeeded.

In relation to the European Union

0:40:590:41:04

withdrawal bill, and it does --

equally optimistic.

The

0:41:040:41:12

electrification of the line from

London to Cardiff has happened over

0:41:120:41:17

the last year, but it has been

cancelled to Swansea. Over the last

0:41:170:41:20

year or two, does that have to count

as a failure?

No, I think that is

0:41:200:41:26

the right decision. It is taxpayers'

money. It is the same train, which

0:41:260:41:30

will take this amount of time...

But

when it was going to Swansea, you

0:41:300:41:33

were in favour of that, saying it

needed to happen. Now it is not, you

0:41:330:41:37

say it is still the right decision.

It has to be either order.

No, it is

0:41:370:41:42

the same train that the excessive

amount of time, and spending

0:41:420:41:47

potentially £700 million on

electrifying a railway when the

0:41:470:41:49

train was by model and would not

have got any quicker, it did not

0:41:490:41:52

make in a sense.

Another issue that

your detractors would be very

0:41:520:41:59

unhappy with is your continued

reluctance, refusal, to devolve air

0:41:590:42:03

passenger duty to the Welsh

Government, citing, as the UK

0:42:030:42:08

Government has, that it would be too

damaging to Bristol airport. You are

0:42:080:42:12

not fully there are standing up for

Wales strongly enough, is that fair?

0:42:120:42:17

I do not accept that. First of all,

the commission did not come up with

0:42:170:42:21

an agreement on this issue. The

First Minister was calling for air

0:42:210:42:27

passenger duty to be devolved, but

that is pretty anti-competitive...

0:42:270:42:30

So does the labour of the

conservative and Wales is not the

0:42:300:42:34

leader of the Conservatives.

Only UK

bases, the most important market...

0:42:340:42:39

You should be looking at Wills, not

the UK.

The most important market to

0:42:390:42:44

Wales as the UK market, because 80%

of output from Wills goes to the

0:42:440:42:50

rest of the UK, and, therefore, the

vibrancy of the Welsh economy is

0:42:500:42:55

dependent on the strength of the UK

economy, and the UK economy is

0:42:550:42:59

dependent on the strength of the

Welsh economy.

0:42:590:43:02

One of the success you have always

cited as the server until being

0:43:020:43:05

abolished. We see in the media that

the Newport area is being seen as an

0:43:050:43:12

area where people are trying houses,

the Bristol posts saying there is

0:43:120:43:18

going to be a mass exodus to Wales,

were historically ones are cheaper.

0:43:180:43:23

-- the Severn Toll. As the

consequence of abolishing the tolls

0:43:230:43:30

would be an influx of a lot of south

eastern English people did wheels,

0:43:300:43:33

would that be regrettable?

So, are

are you asking if I should keep that

0:43:330:43:41

all 30 TV barrier?

Every action has

a consequence, what consequence

0:43:410:43:45

could be from migration to South

East Wills.

You have a toll across

0:43:450:43:58

the whole of the border to stop

that?

This is removing that.

We

0:43:580:44:03

don't worry about that cross-border

issue in north-east Wales. Airbus is

0:44:030:44:06

there. 40% of the employees of

Airbus come from the English side of

0:44:060:44:10

the border. That is good for the

economy. It shows a greater dynamic

0:44:100:44:15

of movement between those places.

Therefore, on that basis, by

0:44:150:44:21

removing the tollus on the Severn

Bridge, it has created excitement in

0:44:210:44:25

the business community, because the

biggest prospect...

But there are

0:44:250:44:29

cultural aspects. The economic

reasons behind it are well-known.

0:44:290:44:33

Less discussed the possible

population changes which could

0:44:330:44:40

result from them, and I am not

really getting a sense from you as

0:44:400:44:42

to whether or not you think that

would be good or bad.

There are

0:44:420:44:44

going to be challenges along the

way, without question. If there are

0:44:440:44:48

more people working in an area,

there is greater demand for housing.

0:44:480:44:51

On that basis, there is going to be

a social policy, because that has to

0:44:510:44:55

be resolved in terms of extra

housing. There is going to be

0:44:550:45:01

greater need for development for

business property. The biggest

0:45:010:45:02

property deal last year in Wales

took place after the Severn Tollus,

0:45:020:45:08

and the agent said it was because

they were being abolished. This goes

0:45:080:45:11

to show that there is an excitement

amongst the business community. This

0:45:110:45:14

is about, look, politics is about

improving people's lives. It is

0:45:140:45:19

about creating more wealth, sharing

wealth on a better basis. We can

0:45:190:45:26

always be poor by keeping a barrier

between us and other economies, or

0:45:260:45:32

more dynamic economies. That is

quite easily done. And then you can

0:45:320:45:34

defend it by saying we need those

tollus in order to maintain that

0:45:340:45:41

barrier. That is not the right thing

to do. I want the greatest movement,

0:45:410:45:44

the greatest dynamism in the

economy. I want to go -- the

0:45:440:45:54

critical mass that we create between

Bristol and Cardiff to start

0:45:540:45:58

campaigning with London and the

south east.

0:45:580:46:02

Welsh liver's election for a dip

into leader is still going on. A few

0:46:020:46:06

weeks ago, you will remember Julie

Morgan, one of the candidates, what

0:46:060:46:09

you're making her pitch. But what of

her opponent, Carolyn Harris? A

0:46:090:46:14

short while ago, I began by asking

her why she wanted the job.

0:46:140:46:18

I see this role as being

about campaigning, motivating

0:46:180:46:20

and enthusing people.

0:46:200:46:21

I've been an MP since 2015

and every campaign I have

0:46:210:46:23

taken on, I think I have

delivered the goods on.

0:46:230:46:27

I've led the way on 1950s women,

0:46:270:46:27

I've managed to get children's

funerals free in Wales

0:46:270:46:30

and I'm very,

very close to getting them

0:46:300:46:32

in the rest of the UK.

0:46:320:46:33

Fixed-odd betting

terminals - dreadful,

0:46:330:46:34

dreadful machines -

were somewhere on the horizon,

0:46:340:46:37

but they are now at

the top of the political agenda

0:46:370:46:39

and I'm hopeful that we're going

to get something on that very soon.

0:46:390:46:42

So, I think I've proved

myself to be the kind of person

0:46:420:46:45

who can work with people,

talk to people, listen to people.

0:46:450:46:48

I home in on the issues and I love

getting my sleeves rolled up

0:46:480:46:51

and getting the job done.

0:46:510:46:55

What kind of campaigns do

you think are needed

0:46:550:46:58

as deputy leader of

Welsh Labour, then?

0:46:580:46:59

Well, we don't really

know yet, do we?

0:46:590:47:01

We don't know until

we get out there and

0:47:010:47:03

actually speak to people.

0:47:030:47:04

I think we need to do

more work within the party

0:47:040:47:07

about supporting people

who want to become members,

0:47:070:47:09

who want to become part

of the Labour family,

0:47:090:47:11

especially for women and minority

groups who have access problems,

0:47:110:47:15

or even childcare problems,

and if you put yourself up

0:47:150:47:19

as a candidate, it's extremely

emotionally draining

0:47:190:47:21

and financially draining,

so I would like to see us doing

0:47:210:47:24

more on that in terms

of working with people

0:47:240:47:27

and training people

and giving them an idea of

0:47:270:47:31

what they're getting themselves

into, but it is not just

0:47:310:47:33

about the membership, is it?

0:47:330:47:34

It is about talking to people

in our communities.

0:47:340:47:37

This 3 million people in Wales.

0:47:370:47:39

They need us, they need us to listen

to them, and I see this role

0:47:390:47:42

as about working with not just

membership but working with

0:47:420:47:46

everybody in Wales to find

out what we can do to

0:47:460:47:47

make their life easier.

0:47:470:47:49

As a member of Parliament,

I just wonder, if you are

0:47:490:47:51

the deputy leader of Welsh

Labour, who then, ultimately,

0:47:510:47:55

do you think is your boss?

0:47:550:47:56

Is it Carwyn Jones or

is it Jeremy Corbyn?

0:47:560:48:00

Who do you have to

listen to if there is

0:48:000:48:01

a disagreement between

the two leaders?

0:48:010:48:03

Well, if there was a disagreement

to the detriment of Wales,

0:48:030:48:05

then obviously Welsh Labour wins

hands down, because I am

0:48:050:48:08

a Welsh politician, a Welsh MP,

I have to put my constituency

0:48:080:48:10

and Wales first.

0:48:100:48:11

But I can't ever imagine

there would be a time when the two

0:48:110:48:15

did not agree on something, because,

in all fairness to Jeremy, he does

0:48:150:48:18

leave devolution to sort itself out

0:48:180:48:20

and does not interfere in Welsh

politics.

0:48:200:48:25

If it did arise, I will take your

point that it may well not,

0:48:250:48:30

but you would defy the party whip

in Parliament

0:48:300:48:33

and vote against it on that basis?

0:48:330:48:35

Well, I have defied

the party whip before.

0:48:350:48:40

I defied the party whip

on welfare reform.

0:48:400:48:42

I was actually in the lobby

with Jeremy Corbyn.

0:48:420:48:44

There was only 47 of us,

but I was there then.

0:48:440:48:46

It's not something I would be afraid

to do,

0:48:460:48:49

because I have done it

before.

0:48:490:48:50

One of the big issues I am sure

you will be aware of

0:48:500:48:53

is one member,

one vote and whether or not

0:48:530:48:55

it should be used or should not be

0:48:550:48:57

to elect the next

Labour leader in Wales.

0:48:570:48:59

What are your views on that?

0:48:590:49:01

In terms of the college, I am very

much in favour of the unions

0:49:010:49:04

having a say.

0:49:040:49:05

People need to remember

that the unions did not

0:49:050:49:07

join the Labour Party,

they created the Labour Party.

0:49:070:49:09

Yes, I support that

part of the college.

0:49:090:49:11

What I would say is

that some people, who

0:49:110:49:14

we say are on the left, people

like Diane Abbott, Clive Lewis, have

0:49:140:49:17

actually come out in support of me

because they work with me,

0:49:170:49:19

they know me, they understand me,

they know my motives,

0:49:190:49:22

they know my motivation.

0:49:220:49:30

And for those to get personally

criticised for supporting

0:49:300:49:33

me because I am not

supporting OMOV...

0:49:330:49:37

Sure, but would you be happy

if you got the support of

0:49:370:49:40

the unions but not

of the membership?

0:49:400:49:42

Would that still be, in your view,

a strong enough victory?

0:49:420:49:45

I like to think that the membership

will see past the process

0:49:450:49:48

and will actually,

like my colleagues who

0:49:480:49:49

supported me, agree that...

0:49:490:49:50

The process is decided.

0:49:500:49:52

We've got to move on now.

0:49:520:49:57

We can't talk, 25,000 of us

talking to each other,

0:49:570:49:59

we need to talk to the 3 million

people out there who need us.

0:49:590:50:02

Yes, I've had a union

support, so has Julie, but,

0:50:020:50:04

yes, I have got membership support

because not everybody is obsessed

0:50:040:50:07

with OMOV, if I'm honest.

0:50:070:50:08

Most people can see

past that and see

0:50:080:50:10

that they need the best person

for the job

0:50:100:50:13

and that we need to look

beyond the process.

0:50:130:50:16

As a female politician,

how safe a place do you think

0:50:160:50:20

politics is for women in Wales

specifically, and what will your

0:50:200:50:22

role be in trying to prove that?

0:50:220:50:27

I personally, myself,

have come under

0:50:270:50:29

some really nasty personal attacks,

0:50:290:50:31

so I understand it is

very uncomfortable.

0:50:310:50:34

It is uncomfortable for men,

it's not just women

0:50:340:50:36

who are vulnerable to this.

0:50:360:50:37

But I think that we need

to be supporting women

0:50:370:50:42

to understand how they

can best tackle it.

0:50:420:50:44

Some people say grow a second skin,

it's not always possible to

0:50:440:50:47

grow a second skin when

people are being really

0:50:470:50:50

personal about you,

so

0:50:500:50:51

I think we do need to be better

at nurturing and supporting

0:50:510:50:57

on all aspects of

involvement with the party.

0:50:570:51:00

I am really happy...

0:51:000:51:00

I am a good listener.

0:51:000:51:02

I am a good talker but I am

a good listener, and I've

0:51:020:51:05

got a big heart and a big

mouth, so I can actually be

0:51:050:51:08

what I need to be

for everyone.

0:51:080:51:09

Thank you very much.

0:51:090:51:11

Thank you.

0:51:110:51:18

In just a couple of weeks, Wales

will be collecting its first taxes

0:51:180:51:22

in its own right as a country ever,

or at least since the days of the

0:51:220:51:28

13th century, so are we ready, and

how big is steak is this? We have

0:51:280:51:32

been looking through the history

books.

0:51:320:51:34

A new page of Welsh history

is set to be written.

0:51:340:51:37

On the 1st of April 2018,

Wales will once again take

0:51:370:51:40

charge of some of its taxes.

0:51:400:51:45

The last time any kind

of taxes were collected

0:51:450:51:48

by Welsh authorities

0:51:480:51:49

was nearly 800 years ago.

0:51:490:51:51

Since Tyler's church,

now rebuilt here,

0:51:510:51:53

dates from that time.

0:51:530:51:56

As you'd expect, back then,

Wales was a very different place.

0:51:560:52:01

When we think about Wales

in the Middle Ages, we think

0:52:010:52:03

about it a four different

independent countries.

0:52:030:52:07

Gwynedd, Powys and then

what is now Ceredigion.

0:52:070:52:09

Those three, together with one that

disappeared just after the

0:52:090:52:11

Normans turned up, pulled

and tugged against each other

0:52:110:52:15

for the whole of the Middle Ages.

0:52:150:52:17

There never really was a single,

you know, country,

0:52:170:52:20

as we would think.

0:52:200:52:21

They were all taxed differently.

0:52:210:52:24

In terms of all of what we know

was Wales being taxed in

0:52:240:52:28

a uniform fashion, this

is the first time in history.

0:52:280:52:31

So, what taxes are on

the cards for April?

0:52:310:52:33

The land transaction tax,

which replaces the old stamp duty on

0:52:330:52:36

property, and the landfill disposal

tax, which replaces Westminster's

0:52:360:52:38

landfill tax.

0:52:380:52:43

These will be collected

by the Welsh Revenue Authority,

0:52:430:52:45

from their new base.

0:52:450:52:48

We are a small but highly

specialised organisation.

0:52:480:52:50

So, we are going to be about

70 people, and yet we are

0:52:500:52:55

going to have to be able to offer

the same sort of suite of services

0:52:550:52:58

that you would expect from HMRC.

0:52:580:53:00

The biggest change, anyway,

is that these new taxes we pay

0:53:000:53:08

to the WRA, it's what happens

afterwards,

0:53:080:53:09

in a way, it's the biggest change.

0:53:090:53:11

That money is then specifically for

Welsh Government to spend on public

0:53:110:53:14

services in Wales, and so there

is no connection to London.

0:53:140:53:16

But Plaid Cymru's economic

adviser is doubtful

0:53:160:53:18

much will change.

0:53:180:53:19

Do you think there will be

more spending

0:53:190:53:21

on public services?

0:53:210:53:22

I doubt it, because the ideal way

is getting more spending,

0:53:220:53:27

getting more tax revenue is not

to put up the rate of tax,

0:53:270:53:30

it is not to increase tax

but build the economy.

0:53:300:53:32

If you grow the economy,

you grow the tax base

0:53:320:53:35

without putting up the rates of tax.

0:53:350:53:37

And how will these new powers change

the Assembly's role in

0:53:370:53:39

deciding which taxes are collected?

0:53:390:53:41

Assembly Members will be

able to block them,

0:53:410:53:43

if they so choose to,

0:53:430:53:44

or endorse them, so it

will give them power

0:53:440:53:47

now of the equivalent

of the money bill,

0:53:470:53:49

but they already have

the power to block the Welsh budget.

0:53:490:53:54

They may wish to put riders with

that and also the taxes,

0:53:540:53:57

or they might have, you know,

new private members bills

0:53:570:53:59

or other bills

to come in

0:53:590:54:02

in order to have new taxes

on various products.

0:54:020:54:05

You know, for example

plastic bottles

0:54:050:54:06

or something like that.

0:54:060:54:07

And there are more tax

powers heading this way,

0:54:070:54:11

with control over income tax rates

0:54:110:54:15

set to be devolved in April next

year.

0:54:150:54:17

Scotland has had some income

tax powers since 1999.

0:54:170:54:19

The powers here are

quite limited, far more

0:54:190:54:22

limited than the Scottish

powers on income tax.

0:54:220:54:24

It's going to raise

about £2 billion.

0:54:240:54:27

That is 2 billion out

of the 15 billion, roughly, the

0:54:270:54:29

Welsh Government spends every year.

0:54:290:54:32

It is material, but not that large.

0:54:320:54:33

There will be hopes

in the Westminster Government

0:54:330:54:37

that the Welsh Government

and Assembly are responsible enough

0:54:370:54:41

to enable more powers to be devolved

over tax-raising powers,

0:54:410:54:44

and they will probably be

hope within the Assembly

0:54:440:54:47

that they can develop more

income streams,

0:54:470:54:51

new types of taxation,

to increase their own spending.

0:54:510:54:57

So, the 1st of April,

a day for the history books.

0:54:570:55:00

But, of course, we all

know that, in the end,

0:55:000:55:02

no matter who collects the taxes,

we still have to pay them.

0:55:020:55:10

Now, we know there is going to be a

Metro transport system in South East

0:55:140:55:18

Wills, and also north Wales, and

there are also plans for a network

0:55:180:55:21

in the Swansea Bay region, but how

should it work? There is a call for

0:55:210:55:27

it to be based not on trains and

trams but a system of driverless

0:55:270:55:30

vehicles. The region could lead the

way and developing alternative

0:55:300:55:34

transport like this, and the man who

said that joins me now. I will not

0:55:340:55:39

ask a UK men, whether or not any

driverless vehicle, but that is your

0:55:390:55:43

proposal, instead of having these

trends, you just call a driverless

0:55:430:55:48

vehicle and it takes you really want

to go?

He eats for getting people to

0:55:480:55:54

replace car journeys with public

transport is having a turn up and go

0:55:540:55:57

public transport system. In London,

you do not have to wait very long

0:55:570:56:01

before something comes up. That is

clearly not the case in London, you

0:56:010:56:03

do not have to wait very long before

something comes up. That is clearly

0:56:030:56:06

not the case and well. In parts of

the country, the last bus leaves at

0:56:060:56:09

4pm. There are four trains per day

from some places to Swansea, or a

0:56:090:56:14

bus that takes you to and a half

hours for a 30 minute card running.

0:56:140:56:18

You will not persuade people to give

up their car in those circumstances,

0:56:180:56:23

so how can we realistically create a

turn up and caught transport system

0:56:230:56:26

in Swansea Bay? You cannot rely on

the train network, as you would in

0:56:260:56:29

the valleys, so we need to think

imaginatively. I am then, let's not

0:56:290:56:35

play catch up, let's try to

leapfrog.

When you see leapfrog and

0:56:350:56:39

catch up, you are suggesting these

driverless vehicles, which are being

0:56:390:56:43

tested, they are being used in

places like Greenwich in London

0:56:430:56:48

already, but it is an emerging

technology at best. I guess the

0:56:480:56:52

problem could be at the risk to

boot, you know, your eggs in that

0:56:520:56:55

basket, because it may not work on

end.

The Swansea Bay region is just

0:56:550:57:02

a concept, an outline study being

commissioned. These things are

0:57:020:57:04

moving very quickly. Six years ago,

Hooper did not exist. Half of all

0:57:040:57:09

journeys in London are now made by

Goober, and they have a pool

0:57:090:57:17

servers, which is basically a

minibus. -- are made by Uber. That

0:57:170:57:24

sort of technology is already making

existing large, empty buses

0:57:240:57:29

redundant. People do not want to go

on them. You add automated vehicles

0:57:290:57:32

into the mix and the UK government

expect them to be on sale in the UK

0:57:320:57:38

in three years. This is happening

quickly. Let's not try to create a

0:57:380:57:44

Manchester or Sheffield - type tram

system, we are 30 years behind the

0:57:440:57:48

curve. Let's try to leapfrog, using

new technology and creating the

0:57:480:57:52

Swansea Bay region as a test-bed, to

try out the driverless technology.

0:57:520:57:58

We can try out wireless recharging.

We can go through the regulatory

0:57:580:58:02

barriers and access hurdles, so we

see come to us, experiment here, we

0:58:020:58:06

will underpin it with the five G

test-bed, and let's do something

0:58:060:58:08

exciting.

Is the danger not, it is

exciting, it could work, but the

0:58:080:58:13

problem is you are saying testing

out a novel lot of new technologies.

0:58:130:58:18

Maybe people in Swansea Bay did not

want to be the guinea pigs.

Stop

0:58:180:58:23

being so conservative! Look at the

power that we have.

It is public

0:58:230:58:28

money.

Look at broadband. We spend

tens of million pounds to

0:58:280:58:36

tens of million pounds to give BT

old-fashioned telephone cabinets

0:58:370:58:41

with copper wire, but if you had

started with fibre, this is an exact

0:58:410:58:46

parallel. For too long, we have been

playing catch-up and are not very

0:58:460:58:49

good. We take ages and the result is

often pretty shoddy. We are starting

0:58:490:58:55

from a blank sheet of paper, let's

go straight to the future solution,

0:58:550:58:59

rather than playing catch up.

This

comes across the desk of the economy

0:58:590:59:05

and transport Secretary, we know he

is quite keen on driverless

0:59:050:59:09

vehicles, he wants Welsh roads to be

tested... Test centres for

0:59:090:59:14

driverless vehicles, do you think

you would go something like this?

I

0:59:140:59:17

am hoping he will. Things are moving

quick. The place we are currently

0:59:170:59:23

moving, the Cardiff and valleys

Metro is moving very slowly because

0:59:230:59:26

that is complex. In the next five

years, you will not see many new

0:59:260:59:29

services because of all of the

transferring of the track and

0:59:290:59:31

converting it to L. All

prerequisites to get a real system

0:59:310:59:34

working in a different way.

Driverless technology offers us the

0:59:340:59:39

chance to not bother with that and

having these car sharing, lift

0:59:390:59:43

sharing pods coming around and

within every want to go. The

0:59:430:59:46

exciting thing with machine

learning, artificial intelligence,

0:59:460:59:49

it is changing rapidly. What machine

learning will do if the computer

0:59:490:59:54

algorithm will create the routes

where people want to go, so you

0:59:540:59:57

won't have timetables, it will go

from maps, two apps. That is the

0:59:571:00:03

exciting opportunity here.

Do you

think there would need to be a

1:00:031:00:07

hybrid, will you would have to have

some of those buses and trains, as

1:00:071:00:10

well as having these boards, and

then it becomes incredibly expensive

1:00:101:00:14

to deliver all of that?

To begin

with, clearly, we will have to

1:00:141:00:18

transition is, which is why we will

need a test-bed to work this out.

1:00:181:00:21

But if we can crack it in certain

areas, we can be the place that

1:00:211:00:26

people look to to see what the

future of public transport looks

1:00:261:00:28

like, rather than trying to ape part

of England 20 to 30 years ahead of

1:00:281:00:32

us.

You see it will not happen any

Jensen, how much of a timetable, if

1:00:321:00:36

you excuse the pun, how soon do you

think this could be in place?

We

1:00:361:00:42

need to start the planning now

because driverless vehicles will be

1:00:421:00:46

on UK roads within three years. It

is happening at pace. We need to be

1:00:461:00:51

all over it. There is a broader

economic point. I do not want

1:00:511:00:57

Swansea Bay to be committing that

the Cardiff. We need to start

1:00:571:01:04

creating a public transport system

that creates viable, vibrant

1:01:041:01:08

communities.

That is it from me, but

we are on Twitter of course. For

1:01:081:01:12

now, thank

1:01:121:01:15

the consensus.

We will have to leave

it there, back to Sarah. Welcome

1:01:251:01:25

back.

1:01:251:01:27

A row has erupted in the influential

Brexit Select Committee of MPs.

1:01:271:01:31

The majority of pro-Remain MPs

on the committee, led

1:01:311:01:33

by the Labour Chairman Hilary Benn,

have backed a report saying

1:01:331:01:35

that the Article 50 process may

need to be extended,

1:01:351:01:38

so that Brexit would happen

later than March 2019.

1:01:381:01:40

But that infuriated the minority

of pro-Brexit MPs on the committee,

1:01:401:01:43

who have published their own report,

which says that delaying

1:01:431:01:45

Brexit would not respect

the referendum result.

1:01:451:01:47

One of those pro-Brexit MPs

on the committee, Jacob Rees-Mogg,

1:01:471:01:49

said: "The majority report

is the prospectus

1:01:491:01:51

for the vassal state.

1:01:511:01:52

It is a future not worthy of us

as a country, and I am sure that

1:01:521:01:56

Theresa May will rightly reject

a report by the high

1:01:561:01:58

priests of Remain."

1:01:581:02:04

The majority report is an attempt

to keep us in the EU

1:02:061:02:09

by sleight of hand."

1:02:091:02:09

The Committee Chairman is Labour MP

Hilary Benn and he joins me now.

1:02:091:02:13

Have you been called a high priest

before?

Many things but never a high

1:02:131:02:18

Have you been called a high priest

priest. He says you are trying to

1:02:181:02:20

delay Brexit

1:02:201:02:22

priest. He says you are trying to

because you are

1:02:221:02:24

priest. He says you are trying to

Remainer. That's not the case, not

1:02:241:02:25

about undermining the referendum

result, is about the problem we

1:02:251:02:28

face, there are seven months to go

1:02:281:02:30

result, is about the problem we

until the Article 50 negotiations

1:02:301:02:32

are due to end. There

1:02:321:02:34

until the Article 50 negotiations

host of issues that have

1:02:341:02:37

until the Article 50 negotiations

been addressed. We haven't started

1:02:371:02:37

negotiating our future economic

relationship, what will happen to

1:02:371:02:41

trade, services, 80% of the British

economy's services, how will we work

1:02:411:02:47

trade, services, 80% of the British

together on defence, foreign policy

1:02:471:02:47

and security, really important

1:02:471:02:51

together on defence, foreign policy

the wake of the Salisbury attack,

1:02:511:02:56

cooperating on aviation safety, food

1:02:561:02:57

the wake of the Salisbury attack,

safety, medicines, research, and

1:02:571:03:00

the wake of the Salisbury attack,

question of how to keep an open

1:03:001:03:00

border between Northern Ireland

1:03:001:03:05

question of how to keep an open

be set out by October?

We didn't set

1:03:051:03:06

the deadline of the sort of the

the deadline of the sort of the

1:03:061:03:08

negotiating process

1:03:081:03:10

the deadline of the sort of the

pointed out when the deal is agreed

1:03:101:03:17

-- European Council. If there

1:03:181:03:19

-- European Council. If there are a

whole load of things that have not

1:03:191:03:23

whole load of things that have not

yet been negotiated the government

1:03:231:03:23

could ask

1:03:231:03:25

yet been negotiated the government

Article 50 process and one of the

1:03:251:03:27

things that we say is when David

Davis came to give evidence to us,

1:03:271:03:31

he said we don't want to

1:03:311:03:33

Davis came to give evidence to us,

negotiating really important issues

1:03:331:03:34

Davis came to give evidence to us,

in the transition period because the

1:03:341:03:36

Davis came to give evidence to us,

balance of power changes. What we

1:03:361:03:38

are seeing is the best way to get

are seeing is the best way to get

1:03:381:03:41

the best deal for the British people

is to do so when you have the

1:03:411:03:43

is to do so when you have the

maximum negotiating clout and that

1:03:431:03:44

is during the Article 50 period.

Without a hard deadline of the two

1:03:441:03:50

years since triggering Article 50,

the EU could just delay and delay

1:03:501:03:54

years since triggering Article 50,

and delay this to the point that it

1:03:541:03:55

is a

1:03:551:03:59

and delay this to the point that it

as not leaving the EU.

The body

1:03:591:04:00

wants a never-ending process.

1:04:001:04:02

as not leaving the EU.

The body

be some in the EU who wouldn't mind,

1:04:021:04:05

as not leaving the EU.

The body

they would prefer it to a

1:04:051:04:06

as not leaving the EU.

The body

Brexit.

They might

1:04:061:04:08

as not leaving the EU.

The body

referendum decision has

1:04:081:04:11

as not leaving the EU.

The body

We have seen another example this

1:04:111:04:11

week, Chris Grayling, the Transport

Secretary, said we would

1:04:111:04:15

week, Chris Grayling, the Transport

to put checks on goods coming in to

1:04:151:04:18

week, Chris Grayling, the Transport

Dover. Knows that the customs

1:04:181:04:21

week, Chris Grayling, the Transport

relations are not ready so these are

1:04:211:04:23

week, Chris Grayling, the Transport

serious issues that face the

1:04:231:04:23

country. Or the businesses I speak

to so we understand how it works

1:04:231:04:31

today and can you tell us how it

will work tomorrow when we have left

1:04:311:04:34

and the answer is we don't

1:04:341:04:37

will work tomorrow when we have left

because we haven't negotiated it. It

1:04:371:04:39

will work tomorrow when we have left

is about taking a sufficient time to

1:04:391:04:39

get a decent deal. Everybody

1:04:391:04:41

is about taking a sufficient time to

that the detailed negotiation is

1:04:411:04:42

going to take place during the

transition period because you are

1:04:421:04:45

not going to

1:04:451:04:49

between now and October. Would you

need to impose another hard deadline

1:04:491:04:51

between now and October. Would you

in order to keep minds focused.

Not

1:04:511:04:57

allow the balance of power to shift

to those in the EU who could delay

1:04:571:05:01

and delay if this is an open-ended

1:05:011:05:03

to those in the EU who could delay

and this would only happen if the

1:05:031:05:05

government were to ask for it. It

1:05:051:05:07

and this would only happen if the

other EU 27. Of all of the other

1:05:071:05:10

member states. But it is about

having flexibility, remember the row

1:05:101:05:14

when the government put a hard

1:05:141:05:16

having flexibility, remember the row

deadline of 11 o'clock on the 29th

1:05:161:05:16

of March? Lots of people including

1:05:161:05:19

deadline of 11 o'clock on the 29th

Conservative said this is

1:05:191:05:21

deadline of 11 o'clock on the 29th

sensible. When you are engaged in

1:05:211:05:22

deadline of 11 o'clock on the 29th

negotiation that is as complex and

1:05:221:05:24

challenging as this, to

1:05:241:05:26

negotiation that is as complex and

absolutely hard deadline

1:05:261:05:27

negotiation that is as complex and

help you get the right outcome for

1:05:271:05:29

the British people.

There is

1:05:291:05:31

help you get the right outcome for

accusation from the people on your

1:05:311:05:32

committee who don't agree with your

1:05:321:05:34

accusation from the people on your

conclusions who published

1:05:341:05:39

conclusions who published this

minority report, which is that you

1:05:391:05:41

conclusions who published this

are trying to keep

1:05:411:05:43

Single Market and customs union by

the back door using the Irish border

1:05:431:05:45

issue to do that.

1:05:451:05:48

preferred outcome that we stayed in

issue to do that.

1:05:481:05:49

this customs union and Single

Market.

It is my preferred point,

1:05:491:05:53

position but they have not reached a

decision in the review. The

1:05:531:05:57

government set a high bar on the

Irish border, it wants

1:05:571:06:02

government set a high bar on the

no infrastructure, and I agree. As

1:06:021:06:03

things stand at the moment, because

the government hasn't come forward

1:06:031:06:06

things stand at the moment, because

with a proposal as to how to deliver

1:06:061:06:09

things stand at the moment, because

that in practice, we don't see how

1:06:091:06:13

things stand at the moment, because

you can reconcile that objective

1:06:131:06:13

with the Government's commitment to

leave the Single Market and customs

1:06:131:06:16

union. This will come back again and

again in the negotiations until it

1:06:161:06:20

is resolved. My own personal view is

is resolved. My own personal view

1:06:201:06:23

staying in a customs union would

is resolved. My own personal view

1:06:231:06:24

staying in a customs union would

provide part of the answer

1:06:241:06:26

staying in a customs union would

keeping that border open, which is

1:06:261:06:26

what everyone says they want.

It is

a pretty rotten state of affairs

1:06:261:06:31

a pretty rotten state of affairs

when your Select Committee produces

1:06:311:06:33

majority and minority report

1:06:331:06:35

when your Select Committee produces

are clearly absolutely split on

1:06:351:06:38

when your Select Committee produces

principles of this.

It is not

1:06:381:06:39

unprecedented but I wish we

1:06:391:06:41

principles of this.

It is not

able to reach agreement. You know

1:06:411:06:42

what, the referendum showed the

1:06:421:06:44

able to reach agreement. You know

nation was divided down

1:06:441:06:46

able to reach agreement. You know

the Cabinet is divided, there are

1:06:461:06:47

different views in Parliament, it's

not entirely surprising that we find

1:06:471:06:50

different views in Parliament, it's

that reflected in the Select

1:06:501:06:53

different views in Parliament, it's

Committee I have the honour to be

1:06:531:06:54

the chair of.

Thank you, we will

pick up some Brexit issues and some

1:06:541:06:58

the chair of.

Thank you, we will

more of what will be happening with

1:06:581:06:59

Brexit this week with the panel.

Isabel Oakeshott, Hilary Benn has a

1:06:591:07:03

Isabel Oakeshott, Hilary Benn has a

point, doesn't he, that his

1:07:031:07:05

committee is no war split and,

frankly, the Cabinet, the country or

1:07:051:07:09

both political parties are on this

matter?

I think that is a fair

1:07:091:07:14

both political parties are on this

but on the substantive

1:07:141:07:15

both political parties are on this

recommendation about delaying Brexit

1:07:151:07:16

further, I cannot see how that could

possibly strengthen our position to

1:07:161:07:21

have us begging for more time here.

I think the one thing that I am sure

1:07:211:07:27

you here, Hilary Benn, when you

1:07:271:07:28

I think the one thing that I am sure

on the

1:07:281:07:31

I think the one thing that I am sure

get on with this? People don't want

1:07:311:07:31

this process to be any more

elongated. If anything it just

1:07:311:07:36

this process to be any more

increases uncertainty for business.

1:07:361:07:38

Hillary.

Somebody summed this up

beautifully to me the other day, for

1:07:381:07:44

beautifully to me the other day, for

something that is apparently so

1:07:441:07:46

simple, it's really, really

complicated, isn't it? Over 45 years

1:07:461:07:49

we have built this network of

relationships, laws, the ways

1:07:491:07:54

we have built this network of

businesses operate. I was at a

1:07:541:07:56

conference of the creative

industries on Thursday and they are

1:07:561:08:00

concerned about intellectual

property and broadcasting into

1:08:001:08:02

concerned about intellectual

Europe, and the ability of musicians

1:08:021:08:03

to go on to travel. All sorts of

questions people have got from a

1:08:031:08:08

perfectly legitimate ones,

1:08:081:08:12

questions people have got from a

it is going to work and is not

1:08:121:08:12

entirely surprising, whatever the

frustration people feel, and I

1:08:121:08:14

recognise that, it will take time to

sort it out in a way that works for

1:08:141:08:18

sort it out in a way that works for

us. It's not about working for

1:08:181:08:20

us. It's not about working for

Europe, we want a deal that we can

1:08:201:08:22

both agree on, but it's got

1:08:221:08:25

Europe, we want a deal that we can

for us and look after our interests,

1:08:251:08:27

that's our job.

Lucy, David Davis is

1:08:271:08:30

for us and look after our interests,

on his way back to Brussels

1:08:301:08:31

for us and look after our interests,

negotiations trying to sign off with

1:08:311:08:32

Michel Barnier the transition period

of the deal there. What is the issue

1:08:321:08:39

that must be decided before the

1:08:391:08:44

of the deal there. What is the issue

the week?

The main stumbling block

1:08:441:08:44

is the Irish

1:08:441:08:45

the week?

The main stumbling block

Hillary pointed out.

1:08:451:08:48

the week?

The main stumbling block

position which goes some way to

1:08:481:08:50

solving the issue, which is

1:08:501:08:52

position which goes some way to

remain in the customs union.

A

1:08:521:08:56

position which goes some way to

customs union.

A customs union,

1:08:561:08:56

forgive me. It is hard to see how

that will be established in any kind

1:08:561:09:00

of technical, substantive way. We

will have to rely on good to

1:09:001:09:05

of technical, substantive way. We

past that at

1:09:051:09:07

of technical, substantive way. We

understanding is there are UK fears

1:09:071:09:10

of technical, substantive way. We

that Dublin may receive backing from

1:09:101:09:11

the Germans and French this week

that will cause more problems on

1:09:111:09:14

that but it is essential that the

transition deal is formally agreed

1:09:141:09:18

at the European Council this week

1:09:181:09:21

transition deal is formally agreed

for two reasons. Firstly, we need

1:09:211:09:22

transition deal is formally agreed

move the talks on to the trade

1:09:221:09:24

agreement, we want to reach. And

secondly, it

1:09:241:09:31

agreement, we want to reach. And

situation will be regarding the UK's

1:09:311:09:31

relationship with the EU up to

September 2020. This is the last

1:09:311:09:38

moment UK businesses have said

1:09:381:09:40

September 2020. This is the last

government can wait to give firm

1:09:401:09:42

signals on it before they revert

1:09:421:09:45

government can wait to give firm

contingency plans.

Hillary talks up

1:09:451:09:47

government can wait to give firm

negotiating leverage and we gave our

1:09:471:09:49

leveraged away when we invoked

Article 50 without pre-negotiations,

1:09:491:09:53

Article 50 without pre-negotiations,

because we put the clock on

1:09:531:09:53

ourselves. With and have two years

to negotiate everything and Michel

1:09:531:09:59

Barnier set the date and

1:09:591:10:01

to negotiate everything and Michel

then go to him to potentially

1:10:011:10:04

to negotiate everything and Michel

for more time and I think we have

1:10:041:10:04

really put ourselves

1:10:041:10:07

for more time and I think we have

position by doing that.

Given that

1:10:071:10:10

situation, would it be better to go,

situation, would it be better to go,

1:10:101:10:12

in your words, begging for more

in your words, begging for more

1:10:121:10:13

time, or

1:10:131:10:15

in your words, begging for more

that people's mines are concentrated

1:10:151:10:19

in your words, begging for more

on getting the deal done?

I think

1:10:191:10:20

the deadline, the date we are

supposed to be leaving,

1:10:201:10:23

the deadline, the date we are

the government in the withdrawal

1:10:231:10:23

bill for political reasons. I think

that was all performative really. I

1:10:231:10:28

don't think there is is Dummigan

reason why there cannot be

1:10:281:10:34

don't think there is is Dummigan

to. If we can

1:10:341:10:35

don't think there is is Dummigan

deal in the short term, there is no

1:10:351:10:37

reason why we can't, as Hilary said,

I now the details in the transition

1:10:371:10:42

period.

What other sticking points

on the withdrawal agreement? It

1:10:421:10:45

on the withdrawal agreement? It

seems David Davis is saying this

1:10:451:10:48

seems David Davis is saying this

week he is relaxed about a

1:10:481:10:49

transition

1:10:491:10:51

week he is relaxed about a

full two years, only up until

1:10:511:10:55

Christmas 2021. It feels a little

1:10:551:10:58

full two years, only up until

bit -- not lusting for a full two

1:10:581:11:00

years. When we get it is crunch

decisions with the withdrawal

1:11:001:11:04

years. When we get it is crunch

agreement and the negotiation

1:11:041:11:06

years. When we get it is crunch

transition agreement, that the UK

1:11:061:11:07

caves at the last minute. Where

1:11:071:11:11

transition agreement, that the UK

we see a win for the UK in these

1:11:111:11:13

transition agreement, that the UK

deadlines?

Every time we get abuse

1:11:131:11:13

crunch

1:11:131:11:16

deadlines?

Every time we get abuse

Parliament try and cause us to cave.

1:11:161:11:17

deadlines?

Every time we get abuse

That is a difficulty government has.

1:11:171:11:19

deadlines?

Every time we get abuse

It has been undermined by its own

1:11:191:11:22

deadlines?

Every time we get abuse

backbenchers, we have the Brexit

1:11:221:11:23

committee coming up with divided

1:11:231:11:25

backbenchers, we have the Brexit

reports suggesting more delay. I

1:11:251:11:27

think there will be massive push

back on that. I don't think

1:11:271:11:31

think there will be massive push

happen. There is no way any

1:11:311:11:32

extension of this time period is

acceptable to Theresa May's

1:11:321:11:37

extension of this time period is

Brexiteer MPs to whom she is in

1:11:371:11:39

hock, so that can't happen.

1:11:391:11:43

Brexiteer MPs to whom she is in

problem is, Matt, it is just going

1:11:431:11:43

to expand to fill

1:11:431:11:46

problem is, Matt, it is just going

available. We need these deadlines,

1:11:461:11:47

uncomfortable as they may be, and in

an ideal world we might

1:11:471:11:53

uncomfortable as they may be, and in

extra days here or there to fine

1:11:531:11:53

tune things, but ultimately nobody

on your side of the

1:11:531:11:57

tune things, but ultimately nobody

going to be happy with the time

1:11:571:11:59

frame. It will simply expand and

1:11:591:12:01

going to be happy with the time

expand and expand until the de facto

1:12:011:12:03

going to be happy with the time

we just stay in the.

Lucy,

1:12:031:12:06

going to be happy with the time

any prospect, given where

1:12:061:12:08

going to be happy with the time

the moment waiting to sign off

1:12:081:12:10

going to be happy with the time

deal on the transition, that we

1:12:101:12:11

going to be happy with the time

have a fully comprehensive trade

1:12:111:12:13

agreement in place by October to go

for ratification to the European

1:12:131:12:18

Parliament?

I think it's looking

1:12:181:12:20

for ratification to the European

increasingly unlikely and

1:12:201:12:21

for ratification to the European

lots of things that will not be

1:12:211:12:23

ready in time, today there are

1:12:231:12:26

lots of things that will not be

reports the Cabinet have been

1:12:261:12:26

reports the Cabinet have been

1:12:261:12:28

briefed on the fact that Customs and

reports the Cabinet have been

1:12:281:12:28

briefed on the fact that Customs and

border arrangements are not going to

1:12:281:12:30

be in place by Brexit day next

March. There is still a lot

1:12:301:12:36

be in place by Brexit day next

questions around that. Going back to

1:12:361:12:38

be in place by Brexit day next

the question of the polarisation in

1:12:381:12:39

Parliament, in the Cabinet, in the

Parliament, in the Cabinet, in the

1:12:391:12:41

country over Brexit and some

1:12:411:12:43

Parliament, in the Cabinet, in the

positions government has put

1:12:431:12:44

Parliament, in the Cabinet, in the

so far, there are still so many

1:12:441:12:46

so far, there are still so many

questions left unanswered. Theresa

1:12:461:12:47

May hasn't really filled in

1:12:471:12:51

questions left unanswered. Theresa

detail about what you would like to

1:12:511:12:51

see with trade and customs and

1:12:511:12:53

detail about what you would like to

question marks over how the

1:12:531:12:56

government envisages immigration

1:12:561:12:57

question marks over how the

working at the Brexit. A

1:12:571:13:01

question marks over how the

detail.

Thank you to all of my

1:13:011:13:02

guests, Lucy Fisher, Isabel

Oakeshott, Matt Zarb-Cousin is an

1:13:021:13:06

guests, Lucy Fisher, Isabel

Hilary Benn are still on the set.

1:13:061:13:08

Join me again next Sunday

at 11am here on BBC One.

1:13:081:13:11

Until then, bye-bye.

1:13:111:13:14

Sarah Smith and Arwyn Jones' guests are Foreign Office minister Sir Alan Duncan MP and chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee Yvette Cooper MP. The political panel consists of political journalist and commentator Isabel Oakeshott, former adviser to Jeremy Corbyn Matthew Zarb-Cousin and senior political correspondent for the Times Lucy Fisher.