04/03/2012 Sunday Politics West Midlands

And in the Midlands, we are venturing where angels fear to

tread by mixing politics with religion. Is it for our politicians

to defend the faith? Should religion play any part in public

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1789 seconds

We are ignoring the old taboo and mixing politics with religion.

Let's meet our guests, cabinet ministers past and present. Owen

Paterson is the Conservative MP for Shropshire North and Northern

Ireland Secretary, and Baroness Morris of Yorkley, former Estelle

Morris, is a former Labour education secretary. A high level

of security goes with your job. Is it working? It is very interesting,

doing what I do. Picking up where Labour left off on Northern Ireland,

we are particularly concentrating on the economy in a way of

cementing the peace. It is an interesting and worthwhile job.

very time-consuming. The question from the point of view of North

Shropshire is whether they get such good value from you as a

constituency MP now you have other business to attentive. On Thursday

I was at a public meeting about a bypass and spent most of Friday

talking on a local radio station. It needs careful planning by 19.

Estelle Morris, it is nearly 10 years ago, a day we will remember

very well, when he resigned as Education Secretary. At the time,

this was interpreted by some sections of the press as an

admission that you were not up to the job. Was that a fair assessment

about what you meant to say? It was far more complicated than that. It

is 10 years ago this October. I have never regretted the decision

but that does not take away from the fact that I loved the job while

I was there. In some ways I do miss it very much, but that decision I

took 10 years ago is not one I have regretted. But it is very

complicated and I have got to a stage of my life where I have

stopped going over it on my mind and moved on. When you look at the

challenges in education with grade inflation at the top and under-

achievement at the bottom, do you think it you should have another

go? It is great to be the armchair critic again. But I have had the

chance and I am proud of a lot of what was achieved. Education is

changing so much that I know any Secretary of State will have new

challenges. Let's get on with our top story. Multi-billion pound

plans to revive truck building here. One of the world's best known

business families, the Hinduja family of India, are behind

ambitious proposals to relocate production from Eastern Europe to

North Staffordshire. Example, perhaps, of the rebalancing of the

economy that ministers keep talking about.

In a factory in Prague, a truck bearing the name of a town almost

1000 miles from here. Longton Trucks will soon be salt by a

newly-formed business in Stoke-on- Trent which has plans to transfer

production to the UK as soon as next year. We want to create local

employment for local people where we possibly can. We know the skills

are there. There is a lot of deprivation in the West Midlands

but we have this proud history and we are not ashamed to say that we

want to pick it up and use it. Prague is home to the company's

European operations, part of the Hinduja group. It has a long

manufacturing tradition. Prague is the centre of the company's

production across Europe but it is hoped that this venture will open

up the UK market, which has seen strong growth. But although there

is expansion in the sector, this venture comes at times when there

is a call for more government help for engineering. JCB's chairman has

urged the Prime Minister to champion engineering. In Prague,

there is optimism for the UK market. We have seen a 30% growth, year to

year, last year. We hope to see at least another 40% this year and in

the UK, two years prior we sold around 300 vehicles. We had to

double that figure. Longton Trucks will face stiff competition but

could be an example of a resurgence in confidence in British

manufacturing. Let's hope so. Owen Paterson, is

that a vision of rebalancing the economy in the way that you would

like to see? Absolutely. It is very exciting but it does follow on from

some other real successes. Jaguar Land Rover are going well. We have

the new plant near Wolverhampton. JCB are a glorious local example of

real quality in intensely difficult world. Looking through the JCB

chairman's report, I have to say, in places, it is pretty towns in

Reading, talking about the inadequacy of the skills base that

we have. Downgrading the practical qualifications that business wants

is not the best way for a government, surely, to assert its

commitment to manufacturing. I have not read the report in detail but I

think we are in complete agreement with Sir Anthony that we want real

quality qualifications. There are up over 3,000 qualifications on

vocational issues which are going to be scaled down to about 125,

which will have real status. We would entirely agree with him - and

if you look at Michael Gove's reforms, they will deliver what he

is looking for. We need a really skilled workforce in order to tempt

back skilled jobs from the Czech Republic and other countries that

have taken jobs from us. I could say, Estelle Morris, that the

shortage of the skills is the millions that went into education,

education, education in your time. What would you do about the

problem? There are some really good size and I had it is not have a

lower false dawn. We are building on 30 years... Batters across the

political parties. I want to take up this thing about skills because

every government - of all political persuasions - is trying to get

skills right and we have never succeeded. The Tories did it before

us, we did it through the diplomas, which have collapsed. The idea of

the diplomas - we had engineering Colombe -- diplomas that have

collapsed. The main thing about Michael Gove's reforms, the English

Baccalaureate has not got a vocational qualification in it.

That is not a good sign. I can't fail to point out that

manufacturing halved under Labour. We are talking about the skill base.

We are determined to rebalance the economy. We need a large financial

sector but we need to expand it and that will take time to bring the

businesses here, but also, I think, to the skill our workforce. That is

what Michael Gove is trying to do. I am not satisfied by that because

it is about culture and making young people excited about going

into manufacturing. If the message coming from the Education Secretary

is that academics matter and vocational subjects don't, we are

not getting it right. Time now for our main talking point today. The

age-old tension between politics and religion is increasing yet

again with the Bishops' efforts to force the Lords on the Government's

benefits cap and Baroness Warsi's attack unaggressive secularism. BBC

Stokes's political reporter has been to church. -- attack on

aggressive secularism. The Church of England has been at

the very heart of the Establishment for hundreds of years. The bishops

sit in the House of Lords and the Queen is both head of state and

defender of the fate. But could do the Grand be beginning to shift? In

the last few weeks, a court ruled that prayers could not be part of

official council meetings. -- could the ground at the beginning to

shift. We are so afraid, and rightly so, of going backwards in

history to the days of one religion was imposed on people by despotic

regimes. But we have got to the stage where aggressive secularism

is being imposed by stealth. Politicians have often been

reluctant to do God. But this local MP at judge in his constituency is

not. I think having the established Church, the Church of England, a

very broad church, which covers a range of beers, gives space for

people of all faiths and people of none to engage in this kind of

debate. What about what we have seen the last few weeks, whether

bishops forced an amendment on a bill? Is that OK in a modern

democracy? I think it would be very dangerous if we came to a point

where faith is not allowed to intrude into the political space or

vice versa. I think the bishops provide a welcome diversity in that

respect. This church takes an active role in the community.

have local projects on estates that are near us. Sometimes when we are

asking for funding for those projects, you can hit the whole

thing off, "if it is a faith based organisation, you might have a

different agenda to what you say," and that is very frustrating. But

that is the culture we live in. it is not at Richard Dawkins * A

Pearce that think they should be a line between religion and the state.

A recent poll found that three- quarters of people thought that

religion should not influence policy and almost half thought that

religion and state should be separate. This Birmingham

councillor recently came into conflict with the City's angling --

Anglican bishop. I think it would be better if the bishops and other

church people concentrated on their own issues. They have falling

congregations and I think they should be doing something about

that. In these days of austerity, the Church might argue its moral

guidance is needed now more than ever. But had to offer that

guidance in an increasingly secular society is perhaps a matter of

conscience. -- How ought to offer. We are joined by the Bishop of

Birmingham for the last 15 years. You were one of the Lords spiritual

in Parliament's opera-house. Did you feel about time that you were

trespassing on the politicians' turf? I always felt that because of

my office as a bishop, but I sat in the House of Lords or not, I had a

proper concern for the common good and the quality of life and society.

I don't think that religion impinges only on what people do for

an hour and a half on Sunday morning. It is the whole of life.

And moral issues involved not only people's personal lives but the way

society is run. But the bishops in the House of Lords certainly

impinged on government policies on benefit reform. Was that

reasonable? I think it was. You have to be very careful how far you

intrude into the particular areas of policy but there is no doubt, if

anyone reads the Bible, that we have a proper concern for the

quality of life and they risk a lot in the Bible about the

responsibility for caring for the fatherless and the widow and the

poor. Plenty of concern about the abuse of power and the abuse of

riches. What do you make of Baroness Warsi's well reported

comments about progressive secularism? Isn't that a challenge

to the Church of England to get its message across more clearly to be

constructive in this debate? think one can get to heated about

this secularism is you. -- issue. Freedom for won his freedom for all

and there is perhaps a tendency not to recognise the nature of the

issues which concern people of faith, not only of Christian faith.

You are an unelected peer and you formed unholy alliance. When I was

a minister in the elected House of Commons, the bishops did the same

to us. It is not just this occasion. That is the role of the House of

Lords - to challenge legislation and question it. But is it the role

of the bishops? If you take the argument that nobody who is

unelected should have a say, we are all as guilty as everybody else.

You should not single the bishops out and so they do not have a right

to hear their views. They are entitled to give their views and

they cannot tell us how to vote. There are 26 bishops but 800 Lords.

We have to persuade one a two more to vote. Argue with Estelle and the

bishop on this? Or do you think that the Church has quite enough

business of its own to look after and in other challenges with

falling numbers so that they should not intrude into politics? They

have every right to speak out. I would point out that Archbishop

George Carey put a totally contrary view. But I was with Sayeeda Warsi

at the Vatican and I think they were quite struck when she said

very firmly, "get out on the front foot and say what you believe in".

The coalition government has given great opportunities for the

churches. The whole Big Society is all about community groups and

church groups. What educational reforms also give... A talking of

education, you think of the multicultural communities in a city

like Birmingham, where many Muslim families seek out faith schools. I

know of a Jewish school because they prefer their ethos to what

they say are the shortcomings of school where there is no faith

component. In Birmingham, we have some none faith schools, and some

Church of England schools, that are 90% Muslim children, so it is very

complicated in an area like this. Given that the Church was one of

the great founders of state education, inevitably, people of

different faiths will want their opportunity to have a faith based

education. It brings challenges and I am under no apprehension about

that but they are things that we must talk about and face up to.

there any place for the Church to be the established Church in this

country, modern Britain, which as we have been hearing is a

multicultural? Well, that is the question. The church is much older

than the kingdom of England, let alone the United Kingdom and if I

can be a bit theological on this, it can survive with or without

establishment. As long as we have got it, it is something we use, and

as long as we use it as something for good for the community as a

hall and speak up for things that we perceive to be morally important.

One final thought, I Wynn, about this question of the court ruling

against prayers. I saw an interview with someone from the secular

Association who said that it sends out a message that local government

is a cosy club for ageing Anglicans, which has a healthy for democracy.

What is your view on that? thought this was driven by a small

number of people, not really representative. The vast majority

of people do adhere to the views of the Church of England. It is good

that we have an established church. It has been very interesting and a

particular pleasure to see you in our studio, Bishop. This is the

point where we have to yield to any even higher authority - the clock.

It is time for our regular round-up of the political week in just 60

seconds brought to us by BBC WM's breakfast presenter.

Turning the Black Country green. Millions of pounds are to be spent

on inner-city nature reserves. Blast furnaces once stood on this

site. It cost taxpayers tens of thousands

of pounds but now the fightback has begun against metal thieves

stealing manhole covers. DNA Greece will leave a mark on culprits.

There is a hole in the road. Motorists could fall down it and be

overturned. Deaths could occur. Syrian exiles and the Midlands so

they are desperate for work and their friends and family back home.

This family so they are in despair. Empty houses are being put up for

auction in Stoke-on-Trent. It is hoped to 200 a year could be

brought back to life. And the American owners of Cadbury

have opened a �70 million research centre at Bournville. -- �17

million. Good news from Cadbury but at the

same time, they are shedding 200 jobs here and in Wales, and the

unions are saying that this research and development venture is

only really valuable if it brings the jobs that go with the research

that is produced. Yes, but you do need research and development to

get the jobs. The two go together. I think it is a lot of the pressure

that has been put on the new owners and unhappiness since the change of

ownership and if this is the beginning of some investment

leading to jobs, that has to be good, but the unions are right. I

am not absolutely clear that that is where it will end up. There has

been a great deal of unhappiness, hasn't there? Do you think people

can take some reassurance from this? Yes, the fact that they are

investing in high quality research jobs is very good but I agree with

the start - we need to create the right conditions and provide the

right workforce to make sure that manufacturing jobs stay here. I

would tell everyone watching this programme, when you buy the Sunday

papers, make sure you buy a cabaret bar. I do that! I am a chocolate. I

don't need tenting. -- I am addicted to chocolate. I do not

need to be tempted. That's it from us in the Midlands. My thanks to my