21/10/2012 Sunday Politics West Midlands

And we will be travelling right across the Midlands. What do people

here look for in a police commissioner? Expert opinion in

each of our five force areas in conversation with our local

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 395 seconds

Dinny -- Debbie green leaves in the Frankly, affected by burglaries.

The only reason I know it is because of me attending the

meetings. I know there have been adverts on the telly. But they

don't tell you a lot about the impact on communities. Not just for

this one, but for others. Hundreds of police officers are losing their

jobs. Our forces is cut dreaded descent from their barges. --

budgets. Lord dear believe that crime commissioners must help the

public have a say. The public. public have got to be involved in

the discussion as to what they want to keep. There could be a doomsday

scenario, where somebody from an extreme wing of any political party

could win this election. Let's look at the doomsday scenario. You would

hope to find a chief constable who would stand up to that and say that

is not what the public want. It is a horrifying scenario and let's

hope it doesn't happen. While some communities are perplexed, others

want to be engaged. In Small Heath Birmingham, a mainly Muslim

audience attended a crime Commissioner event that could a

religious vote prove crucial? might be crucial, but the idea is

not to focus on that, it is to focus on the election. But our

organisation has specific access to Muslims, that is why our starting

point is there. Today's event is open to all. The election's

roulette wheel will soon be turning. The stakes are high. There are

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 395 seconds

dangers, we will have to see how it Hello again from the Midlands. I'm

Patrick Burns and we'll continue this special edition of the Sunday

Politics, with reaction here to Andrew Neil's interview with the

Home Secretary, underlining the real significance of next month's

police and crime commissioner elections. With us throughout our

part of the programme are James Morris, Conservative MP for

Halesowen and Rowley Regis. And Steve McCabe, the Labour MP for

Birmingham Selly Oak. But we begin of course with the continuing

political fallout from the Andrew Mitchell Saga. The Sutton Coldfield

MP resigned as Conservative Chief Whip more than a month after that

now-notorious confrontation with police in Downing Street. In his

resignation letter, he repeated his denial that he used the word "pleb",

but admitted using foul language. James Morris, was he right to go?

He admitted he had made a serious mistake, he should not have sworn

at the police. He came to the job when he was not able to death --

discharge his responsibilities as chief whip. I am sorry for it, he

has had long service as International Development Secretary,

helping vulnerable people. But if you talk to local activists,

councillors and the footsoldiers of the party, they feel they have --

he has done tremendous damage to the party. Labour's lead in the

polls is back-up to eight %. Andrew reflected on the circumstances and

decided he could not discharge its responsibilities. He admitted he

had made a serious mistake and he has paid the price. I don't

remember a Labour calling for Andrew Mitchell's resignation in

the early stages, it was only when the Police Federation called for it

at that you call for it in May -- in an opportunistic way. This was a

story that would not go away. It was not clear what had happened. It

changed during the course of the week. Inevitably, there was more

and more speculation. But my sense is that he had to go. The problem

is that the police have lost confidence in the government and

unless they can do something to repair that, and there not just

talking about the Police Federation, speech to ordinary police officers,

they think the police -- the government has it in for them, they

have a real problem. James, it would appear at that with Andrew

Neil, the Home Secretary Doug two opportunities to say that she had

been calling for Andrew Mitchell's resignation. They're obviously

ructions. There is no denying it has been a difficult summer for the

government. But Andrew Mitchell, at the end of this week, decided he

could not continue to discharge his role as chief whip. Now we need to

move on. The Home Secretary also said in that interview that the

reforms to the police are working because crime is coming down. It is

possible to cut budgets while improving the service at the same

time. Yes, she may rue that comment. We are only partly through the

second year of cuts so it is premature to say everything is rosy.

We have not yet seen at what the tensions for police constables will

be when chief constables and commissioners are making demands.

The reality is that crime is falling. Despite the cuts and the

pressures, there are more police on the front line. Labour's position

is hypocritical, they say they are imposing -- are posing the cuts but

would impose cuts. The government could talk to the police about a

range of issues, you say, really? Their relationship is at an all-

time low. It is important to maintain a dialogue with the

federation. But we need to modernise the police force and put

new processes in place to improve effectiveness. Steve. Ordinary rank

and file officers have lost government in the government. I

think it is a mistake to assume everything is fine. -- rank and

file officers have lost confidence in the government. It is not a

healthy way to proceed. If you ask any of the public what they think,

they are terrified of the risk of crime rising. Thank you.

In today's programme, our BBC local radio political reporters take us

on a journey across the Midlands, speaking to people with a point of

view on next month's police and crime commissioner elections,

heralding the biggest-ever shake-up in our police service. Let's hope

we can make it all a little clearer. The first of our two tours of duty

Power to the people. That is what the government wants to give you in

the running of your police force. The new police and crime

commissioner will have the ultimate power to hire and fire the chief

constable. Here in Gloucester, the chief constable was so concerned

about these elections, he walked. The county has been run by an

acting chief constable since Tony Melville's resignation six months

ago. Does his predecessor think other police chiefs are just as

concerned? I think that we have seen that the police and crime

commissioners have the ability to interfere subtly in the corridors

of power. Not overtly, but to drop hints and influence chief

constables that way about specific issues. It is a danger and make

compromise their independence. Above all, the government says that

next month's elections will make the police more accountable to the

communities they serve. Critics say the influence of unelected

politician is something we should all be concerned about. -- of an

elected politician. The job of the bobby on the beat is as relevant

today as it has always been. To prevent crime and disorder. Do they

think that this will change when police commissioners are elected.

These elections come at a time when budgets are being cut, working

practices changed, and pensions being cut. The rank and file

describe this as the perfect storm. The reason that we have the best

police service in the world is that it is independent without political

influence. One of anxieties is about we will now -- politics will

not be -- politics will now become a part of policing. The police

commissioners, who pledged to reduce crime, cannot do it without

the help of their rank and file police officers. The police

commissioner is intended to be the voice of the community. Somebody

you can go to to share your fears about crime and they are supposed

to offer support to victims. Russia -- in rural Warwickshire,

this farm help set up a Neighbourhood Watch scheme after

neighbours were targeted by arsonist. It is exactly the sort of

community which aid commissioner would want to work with. What you

want from the commissioner? I would want him to understand how to work

with people like us? Police can't be everywhere. We have to work in

partnership and have intelligence from the police to help us. That's

why things like farm watch are good. It is about feeding information

back and forth with the police. government wants to change the way

we interact with the police. It hopes the role of directly elected

commissioners will change the face of our local forces once and for

We'll be visiting our remaining force areas in a minute or two.

We're also joined here today by John Hemming, MP for Birmingham

Yardley and the leader of the Liberal Democrats in the West

Midlands. You are fielding candidates in only

two of the five force areas in our part of the world. Call yourself a

national party? It's a question of deciding whether you want to put up

a candidate,... And she covered for your party in our area. Sometimes,

the local party thinks they want to vote for an independent. I think

the old Watch Committee was a better balance because it had a

balance of judicial influence without having this all-

encompassing power within policing itself. I am sure that ideally, you

would like to see a Royal Commission on policing. I thought

you politicians did that when there was a tricky problem. I think one

of the issues, you have to look at policing as a role and what to

expect from the police. This is a personal view, not a party view.

laugh personal views! I'm not saying anyone supports it, but in a

uniform jobber can you really expect somebody at 68 to be running

around the street catching criminals? Some people can but it

is a demanding job. Issues like, for instance, to what extent can

you expect the police to drop everything because something has

happened and not be compensated financially? In a word or two, do

you think people are sufficiently aware of these issues that you are

talking about in order to make an informed decision? Those issues are

to do with the Windsor report, they are not part of the PCC election.

But do you think people are able to take part in a sensible, practical

way? One of the difficulties is a question of what exactly the police

and crime commissioner can do differently? Given that there are

pressures on the police locally, it is a complex issue. In the interest

of increased accountability, you are introducing an election which

has low Elek -- low turnout and low engagement, it is the ultimate

irony? It is an important innovation in local democracy. It

gives people an accountable. To hold the police to account. When

people start to understand the significance of the decision they

will be voting about, we will see a lot more interest in the elections.

The role of the police and crime commissioner will be vital for

setting the strategic direction of the police in the West Midlands.

Steve, interest will Pickup as the campaign goes on? At least the

government is having a go? You can't defend the status quo,

surely? I am not, I think the elections are going to be difficult.

You wouldn't choose November and you wouldn't pick an alien voting

system. I gather the electoral commission is going to be putting

brochures in to every household? The sure that will be helpful. But

there is a problem. The government has moved closer to a position.

They're talking about commissioners having responsibility for victims

of and that is healthier than the narrow management role of the

police that they were talking about when the legislation went into

Parliament originally. So there are things, once the commissioners are

over the initial problems, there are -- there is a lot of potential.

I have income -- impressed with our candidate in the West Midlands.

Thank you very much. Now for the second of our journeys

with our BBC local radio political reporters who've been visiting the

Midlands five police force areas, holding police and crime

commissioner elections next month. We'll end in the West Midlands, but,

before that, we're off to One of the consistent arguments of

these elections is, I'll be playing politics with the police? Should

politics be kept out of policing, or, are the two and possible to

separate? Here at Keele University, they might have the answer. In

spite of there being independent candidates, the majority of those

standing as candidates are from a political background. It turns out

the words police and politics are more closely linked than we might

have thought. It is very difficult to remove the influence of politics

because policing is inherently political. It is the about the

distribution of power, who was police for and who is police

against? I also don't think it would be desirable to remove

politics from policing. It is very important that police are overseen

in a normal democratic way. PCCs will have to swear an oath of a

partiality but in spite of that there is concern that some of them

Whoever gets the job of policing -- police and crime commissioner in

the West Midlands will be running the biggest force outside London.

Crime rates here are just below the national average and when the PCCs

draws up their plans, they will have a duty to consult with victims

of crime. But there is a way -- there is a thought that red tape

gets in the wake of police a meeting with the public. What

advice would you give to whoever gets the job? I would be asking

them to learn from hour nearly 40 years of experience of dealing with

victims, come to us for advice, users for advisory groups and open

forums for victims and listen to what we have learnt. The police

commissioner here in the West Midlands it will be paid �100,000 a

year. That is the higher salary in the country and the verdict on what

they do will be decided at the ballot box. Elections will take

place once every four years. It comes through in the film that

there will be a clear line of accountability from the police to

the community. You think of the riots last year, who did the go to?

To be fair, I think that Birmingham handle the right situation very

well. I think the police, the police society and local

communities.... But there was no instant authority upfront. There

are problems with moving towards this model. If there are local

crime panels, if victims were given a high priority, as well as the

narrow management of police, we could end up with a better

situation. But it is early days and the risk is that we have one person

trying to control the West Midlands. You are one of the architects of

localism in the West Midlands. This is a question from if you are, I

don't remember voting on the weather to have a PCC. So people

have no choice about whether they have won, it is a top-down

situation. You make the point that in the riots, there was nobody who

people could hold to account. It is important to hold -- to make a

difference between strategic deaf stashed strategic role and what the

police do. The Conservative candidate has been a very clear

about what his priorities are. He does not come from a policing

establishment and has not sat on the police of Faherty, but I think

that is a refreshing thing. There are some fundamental questions in

all of this about the legitimacy of the police in general. Are there

some answers here? Could this goes some way towards solving that

question? Well, the Lib Dem candidate is a criminal barrister

who understands how the system works. If you know that, it you --

you can make it work better. But there are tensions between the Home

Office and in terms of statute and the court and tensions locally.

Those are difficult issues to resolve. I think the simplistic

idea that we have one person to talk to is not necessarily the

answer when the executive decision- making is all over the shop. Very

quick word, will turnouts include a little? Yes, I think as people

begin to see the importance of these elections. I think it will be

difficult. That is where we have to leave it.

My thanks to James Morris, Steve McCabe, and John Hemming. With the

news of Andrew Mitchell's resignation we haven't even had

sixty seconds for 60 Seconds, but you can watch it online on your BBC