04/11/2012 Sunday Politics West Midlands

Hello again from the Midlands. I'm Patrick Burns and this is one of

those weeks where we make some space for an independent

perspective on the political challenges facing our part of the

country. We are joined today by the environmentalists Jonathon Porritt,

who lives in Cheltenham and is now the Chancellor of Keele University

in Staffordshire. And welcome to Caroline Spelman, former

Environment Secretary and Conservative MP for Meridien. This

comes after a week in which the Birmingham MP Lady M -- Gisela

Stuart became the first senior Labour politician to declare

publicly that Britain will inevitably leave the EU, and six

Midlands Conservative MPs voted against the government to demand a

cut in our EU contributions. Is she right? No, I don't agree with her.

Midlands manufacturers and those that are very keen to export, I

often point out that 48% of what we export goes to EU countries and 51%

of what we import comes from those countries. So why would you want to

the outside that customs union and possibly pay tariffs ducks for your

goods? Same question to you, because the mood is changing, isn't

it? I DEC think it is changing. I figured has been against for a very

long time because the pro-Europeans have made an appallingly bad case.

Gisela Stuart is right and that she has pointed to this disconnect. I

don't think it would be very clever for the UK to be planning a

departure from the EU. In due course, there may be a two-tier

Europe and have one of those tears is all about fiscal integration and

regulatory control, then the UK may choose to be in the second tear.

think her point is that events currently unfolding in Europe will

inevitably lead to Britain leaving the EU because she thinks

politicians need to play catch-up with the public who want an open

debate. It is one of those things whether voters actually have been

years ahead of the politicians, virtually since Maastricht. Neither

of the big political parties have spoken honestly about the pros and

cons and the very nuanced ways they should be going. I think both

parties need to be much clearer about what the relationship should

be and that knowledge that within the eurozone, it is a deeper

political integration. She is not the only one. The West Midlands

Independent MEP has now set up a party to demand a referendum. There

are plenty who want to get ahead of the curve. That is true but I feel

that once people really get a chance to think about the benefits

from our membership of the EU, not least the environmental benefits...

If it weren't for the EU over the last 20 years, I can be sure you

are environmental policy would be in a sorry state. You in the Tory

party have your own is used with it, with six Midlands MPs among those

rebels who defied your government to vote for a cut in Britain's a EU

budget contributions. Britain needs to move away from an emotional

debate. Of course we're irritated by unnecessary regulation. Those

are emotional reactions to this much more hard-headed question of

what British business needs. Do we need to be inside the customs union,

where we can freely export goods to those markets and succeed as a

trading nation, or do we want to be outside and pay the cost of that?

The crunch will come with the vote on that EU budget itself. It is

going to be a troublesome moment for the coalition. What of the

things the rebels did not understand is that we are now just

one country a Munster 27 countries of the EU and 16 countries are net

gainers from the budget so we are not indeed majority. -- among 27

countries. We will see what happens. Coming up: He in Gloucester, and

nuclear power firm was sold this week for �700 million.

For decades, the Midlands has been at the forefront of nuclear

research. Art years of effort about to come to fruition?

If we are to have a dynamic economy, this part of the country must be at

the forefront of delivering it. That was essentially the message of

Lord Heseltine's report on the growth strategy, or lack thereof.

He told an audience at Birmingham Town Hall that Whitehall needed to

break the habit of its lifetime and hand over power and money to the

regions. BBC WM's political reporter and Elizabeth Glinka Has

details. Tars and untainted. Even after 40

years, the man he once held government's was powerful levers is

now trying to go wide or to give some of the way to local decision-

makers. He is playing the regional regeneration game one more time,

aged 79. It is trying to persuade people who are themselves excellent

that there is a tail of underperforming and that is

dreading the national average down. With beefed-up powers for the

chamber of commerce, local business and local governments, there would

be a share of �50 million of one single fund instead of the current

tangle of government schemes. What about a Cabinet minister for

regional capital? Birmingham should be run by people in Birmingham even

if it is the Labour Party rather than somebody nationally. And in

Redditch, Lord Heseltine was not winning friends of the district

council. He would replace tears of local government with single

authorities. I do not agree with that idea at all. District counties

are wonderful things. We are small but being small, we can react to

local needs. But Heseltine is determined it is our great cities

that can drive their recovery. Birmingham's town hall is a symbol,

he says, of its nineteenth-century leadership and he is convinced it

is time to do it all over again. Jonathon Porritt, you have been a

great campaigner for a sustainable economy. Do you think that Michael

Heseltine's idea of moving everything into a single �50

billion pot rather than having lots of separate government schemes is a

good trick? It makes a lot of sense. As long as that big fund has

sustainability criteria at its heart. If we can get back to this

idea of big cities and city regions as the driver of prosperity in

England, I think we will see a lot of change on the ground. The

sadness is, this government got rid of the regional development

agencies. I was on the South West Regional Development Agency for

years and it was doing a good job. It is implicit in what Michael

Heseltine is saying, is it not, that the government made a mistake

by getting rid of them? Well, the government gave the people in their

own backyard the decision about which region they wanted to be part

of. The local economic partnerships are the local choice for how you

want to be configured with other local authorities, so we have a

local economic partnership - which is very successful - hearing

Birmingham, which cover Solihull. Michael Heseltine said a really

important thing which has to be sustainable, rebalancing the

economy to spread the effect of London out into the regions, so we

have a more sustainable economy, is the right thing. But you know how

possessive the mandarins of Whitehall and cabinet ministers are

about their power and their money. Is it feasible they will give so

much extra clout to regions like this? Speaking for the department

that I used to run, DEFRA, local government is the key development

agency - agreed to live free agency for DEFRA. -- of the key delivery

agency for DEFRA. What do you feel about this idea of scrapping

district councils, where there is a two-tier system? I think that is a

bit of a red herring, to be honest. What the strongest point of this

report is is that we need to build up the big cities. They are the

real drivers of prosperity. We don't need to get rid of district

councils because they are a guarantor of local accountability

and democracy. The two can live well together. Little what has been

happening in Manchester and elsewhere. There is a model that

could work very well. Maybe you don't really need a regional growth

plan when you can just build nuclear power stations. This past

week has seen the sale of the Gloucester nuclear research firm

Horizon for almost �700 million. Its new Japanese owners want the

firm to build up to six reactors and two sides, creating 12,000 jobs,

but who said, "I am staggered how many people think there is a role

for nuclear power in the UK"? Jonathon Porritt, of course. Our

Environment Correspondent examines the Midlands' contribution to the

nuclear industry. It has been uncertain few months

for Horizon in Gloucestershire but this week, finely some good news. -

- finally. Bought by Hitachi, the company's plans for new UK power

stations look much will likely to become reality now. We would expect

to complete the licensing process in the next four years, which will

enable us to bring the plant online in the early 2020s. His optimism is

shared by this university. This new nuclear development that is

supposed be happening in the UK seems to have stalled. Horizon was

a big consortium which stalled but with Hitachi coming in it is good

news. The University of Birmingham was there at the start of the

nuclear age. It has already been made in Britain at Birmingham

University, birthplace of... the university is continuing to

train the engineers and scientists nuclear power needs. But until

recently, it seemed that those studying now would be involved in

decommissioning existing facilities rather than creating new ones.

you had come to see me 10 years ago, the number of students on the

course would have been around 10. We are up to 50 and 60 now. There

is huge interest in this area in terms of graduate employment. It is

one of the few areas you can almost guarantee getting a job in.

reason for Hitachi looking to expand in the UK is a sudden lack

of interest in Japan after the for consumer disaster. But after

Fukushima, something interesting happened. Despite the Japanese

disaster, as an environmentalist, and in... Nuclear power has always

flatters to deceive and broken his promises. It is a dangerous,

expensive diversion from what we should really be doing, and that is

developing far more efficient energy. And also revamping of the

investments in renewables. Those who support nuclear powers to worry

about the future. If the government Mrs upon this, and gets the

economic conditions are wrong, no company or utility will build

nuclear power stations in the UK. So will these Birmingham students

find work decommissioning old nuclear power plants, or will they

built a new generation of nuclear power stations?

This is against the background of a recent warning by the regulator

Ofgem that the lights Rubika be about to go out. -- really could be.

We are joined by Professor Sir Michael Stirling, who chairs the

Science and Technology Facilities Council and is a member of the

Prime Minister's Council for Science and Technology, and was for

eight years Vice Chancellor of the University of Birmingham. That

university as a lot of investment in those students. Do you think

they could be working in new nuclear power stations,

realistically? I certainly do and I think they have made a very wise

choice. As the report illustrated, the numbers during the difficult

years were only five or six students per year. The university

stayed with it because we thought that inevitably, nuclear power

would come back on the agenda. That was a postgraduate course. There is

also now an undergraduate course which is attracting interest from

prospective students. There are, though, still fundamental worries -

obviously the environmental question, five radioactive waste -

and also the cost. We never really seemed to get a handle on the true

cost. In terms of the recent announcement, it was be better to

have another player in the nuclear field because of one has a monopoly

supplier, prices tend to be higher. I am pleased to see somebody else

confirming they are likely to build new nuclear plants. We have got to

remember that the system needs based Loaded generation so unless

we have that, we are heading for a difficult future. Do you really

think the lights might go out? Absolutely. There is a gap between

the phasing out of the old conventional powers... Yes, and

there are two reasons. We normally operate between 10 and 20% and the

margin for error on forecasting load is much less. When we look

forward to 2020, there is a lot of very able renewables in the system

- in excess of 20%. As yet, nobody has done studies as to how the

system is going to be controlled so that lights could indeed go out.

You mentioned renewables. It has got to be a mix which could involve

renewables, as well. Certainly. My view is that nuclear would be part

of the next but one has to find a way of dealing with the new

consumer loads, which are electric vehicles and electric heat pumps.

Those are major load pattern changes and of the generation side,

we have got variable renewables. If they are constant renewables, it is

easier. Or when they are variable, the matching of the load of the

generation is critical. Sir Michael is certainly one person who,

despite what you say, believes that Nuclear has a future. Lots of

people do, still, including some environmentalists. Idea going to

change your mind? Absolutely no chance whatsoever and I think you

will find that George on beer will change his mind back. It is an

entirely misguided proposition that has been developed. You heard from

the advocates that it will take three or four Machrie years to get

permits for this new reactor. Nothing will be designed until the

first half of the new decade. The cost increases all the time. These

reactors start at an asking price of 7 billion and when Martin freer

said at the end that is still might not happen if the government gets

it wrong, what he meant was that of the government does not put enough

of our money on the table. That is what he meant. What do you say to

those students we saw? Sir Michael Briggs they have a rosy future.

is possible they might get jobs in India or China, which will build

new reactors. It is absolutely unlikely they will find any new

jobs here apart from getting rid of the old nuclear programme.

Birmingham University has made the right choice because both Labour

and Conservatives are committed to new nuclear. The mistake was the

last government prevaricating for a decade, which has put us a very

exposed position. It is often said about politicians that you are

notoriously short-termist. We know your government is in for five

years only. Can you see beyond the end of your nose as? We are taking

long-term decisions all the time. In relation to the energy mix and

in relation to high-speed railways. It is not a fossil fuel. 75% of the

energy makes today is a fossil fuel, which aggravates the climate change

issue. No doubt that is what has changed George's position. All the

options for Energy have their pros and cons but nuclear offers the

prospect of a non-fossil fuel, in conjunction with renewables. They

are all in the next. And, of course, the Japanese Hitachi think there is

an investment worth making. Guess why? They are never going to build

another reactor in Japan because Japan has said it has want any more.

Germany has said it doesn't want any more. Many countries have

decided they can make... And France. France has not committed to a new

nuclear programme. It is committed to extending the lifetime of

nuclear reactors, which is why EDF is so keen to build reactors in the

UK. Wait and see what happens. As soon as we get our heads around the

benefits of efficiency plus renewables Coppell's storage of

which you completely failed to mention even though your erstwhile

university is doing some very good... He thinks those post

graduates will have to go to the Far East if they have a future, or

they will be decommissioning. far as his point of storage is

concerned, if we can develop high- capacity storage, that leaves

things in a better place but while we have not got those technologies,

we are going to need to be able could to control the king seemed a

load. The concept of smart grades. -- we need to be able to control

the consumer load. We have not yet done the work to see how we will

control the system. That is why I am concerned about how the overall

power system is going to work, irrespective of the mix that we are

going to have. We will have plenty of time to talk about this again

but today, I'm afraid we have run out of it. Thank you for being with

Now to our round-up of some of the rest of the political news in the

Midlands in just 60 seconds. It comes from BBC Hereford and

Worcester's Breakfast presenter. Bad news for Midlands jobs. More

than 150 are going at the Coventry firm that makes London Taxis.

That's over half the workforce. The firm is in administration.

Meanwhile in Wolverhampton, 500 jobs are at risk as Tarmac says

it's closing its head office. constituency is already in the top

10 in the whole country for unemployment so this is the last

thing we need. A council's apologised to an 82-year-old widow

after accusing her of fly-tipping. Her gardener cleared leaves from

the lawn to the side of the road. Stratford Council's given Barbara

Ray a year's supply of green bags. And the region had visits from two

Cabinet Ministers. Foreign Secretary William Hague was at

Birmingham's main hospital to visit Malala, the teenager from Pakistan

shot in the head by the Taliban. While Environment Secretary Owen

Paterson was in Cannock to launch a ban on imports of ash trees. The

deadly dieback disease is I think this ash dieback disease is

a surprise to most people over the last few days but when you were

Environment Secretary, how much did you know about it and what did you

do? It was one of the disease is that we had on a list of threats to

the native trees here, which are very precious. We are seeing the

increasing incidence of exotic tree diseases so we launched a tree

health action plan in 20th October 11 and we made extra funds - �8

million - available to insist in tree health. -- in October, 2011.

We launched an onslaught because of climate change and because of

legislation. We need to toughen up our borders and try, as far as

possible, to protect our native species. This is an issue of future

concern to you. It is one of those things all politicians dread. What

can be done? A lot more than is being done about it stay. We have

known about ash dieback for more than 10 years and seen the

situation in Europe. It would have been possible to impose much

tougher controls than has been the case. This is very much a too late

decision taken by DEFRA. Has the horse bolted? In 2009, before my

time, the search for the incidence of this disease began. 15,000

ashtrays were examined for incidence of the disease. It was

not until the spring of this year that the first cases were found.

But you can pretty much guarantee that with the disease as endemic as

it has been, it will get here. if you allow the import of trees

with few controls... And not just trees. Yes: Other plants, as well.

Our controls on this are completely inadequate. The important thing is

that we get on with it. I am sorry to say and Caroline may not agree

that the current government's cuts to the froze to commission a

devastating. Last word on that. It was your cuts that caused this.

did just say we made an extra �8 million available to precisely to

combat the threat to our native trees.

We have to leave it there. Thanks to my guests. A reminder that with

just over a week to go until elections for Police and Crime

Commissioners, you can go to the BBC website for the full list of