30/06/2013 Sunday Politics West Midlands

In the north-west, housing benefit reform class who cares and who pays?

Will the integration of council and health services put patients on a

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2168 seconds

I am Patrick Burns and joining us today to of our distinguished elder

statesman who both spent 27 years as MPs before being elevated to the

upper House. Lord Fowler was the great survivor of the Thatcher

Cabinet. He served as Sutton Coldfield's Conservative MP and

Secretary of State for transport, employment and social services. Lord

Snape was government whip under Jim Callaghan. Good to have you both

with us. Should illegal in be granted an amnesty two the

Conservative MP for Stratford-upon-Avon has caused a bit

of a stir by suggesting they should be given permission to remain in the

UK under strict conditions. It is an echo of the Bill passed recently in

the US Senate which will benefit millions of illegals on the other

side of the pond, many from Mexico. The MPs said it could help bolster

his Party's support amongst Ek -- minorities. What do you do about

600,000 people who are working in the black economy? Do want to --

them to contribute? The Exchequer is getting nothing for it. Can we

entice them to come out from the shadows and participate in the UK

economy. That idea was slapped down by the

Prime Minister who said it would send out the message that Britain

was a soft touch. Was David Cameron he stay, it would bring in 600,000

people into the black economy into this country where they would make

some contribution? -- was David Cameron Hastie? Yes, but it might

bring a lot of other people who might think this is a good place to

go because they think they will get some sort of let off when it comes

to it. I think it would be very premature,

pretty unwise step to take. Particularly when we have had so

many problems over the last 20 years controlling immigration, having a

system for controlling it. We seem to be getting on top of that now but

it does take on a long time. Isn't that the point, Peter, it is at

least to do with the mess left behind by your administration?

cynical for the Conservatives to suggest this. It is also sending out

the wrong message as it is unfair on people who have spent many years

waiting to get here legally. Lastly, it doesn't affect places

like Stratford-upon-Avon. The social consequences of immigration are felt

in cities like Birmingham, Wolverhampton and West Bromwich, not

Stratford-upon-Avon. It is also a recognition that your Party is not

making headway among ethnic minorities, as Nadhim Zahawi says,

there are many people who would be considered small C Conservatives in

those communities who are averse to voting Conservatives in elections.

I think all of the parties have a problem in getting people in

minority communities to actually vote. I don't actually see this as a

Party political thing. The idea that you give an amnesty to illegal

immigrants then there are going to say that is fantastic, we will vote

Conservative, is just fanciful, frankly. You should judge it on its

merits and frankly it is just not proven.

Did you think there is a challenge to some of the parties to think more

inclusively about involving different communities? It is a

challenge for successive governments to enforce immigration controls.

This country has benefited enormously from immigration but

frankly there have been strains, as well. I don't make a political point

about giving illegal immigrants and amnesty would benefit the

Conservatives, he did. That is a cynical way to look at it. For the

moment, thank you very much indeed. Coming up, scandal. It started with

phone hacking by the tabloid papers, then came the Leveson Inquiry. But

could it be the law-abiding local press hit hardest by press

regulation? And what price local democracy if

the papers are not there to report it? That will be our talking point

coming up later. It sounds like a contradiction in

terms, but for one month only, lorries can use the Msix motorway

free of charge. The owners of loss-making businesses are

experimenting of ways of stemming the slide in the numbers using it,

currently at an all-time low. Will a temporary loss leader for hauliers

lead to a permanent nationalised free for all?

The M6 toll opened a decade ago. It was hoped that more than 70,000

vehicles that they would use it, but last year the daily average was half

of that. This months trial are those members of the Road haulage

Association to use it for free. is a good scheme. It needs to carry

on. If we were using the tall everyday, we would be paying out

around �440 per day. During the day, it costs �5 50 for a car and �11 for

an HGV. For some that is too much. only use it if I am going for work

because the boss pays for it. would have to be virtually free for

me to use it. There have been calls for the M6

toll to be taken into public ownership from UKIP and the West

Midlands transport organisation. Their Chief Executive thinks a

change of ownership could be a boost to the region's economy. When you

look at the cost of congestion to business in particular, we are

looking at maybe �3 billion per year, and if we can bring that down

by one half, business will benefit by �1.5 billion per year, that is a

big amber for businesses in the West millions -- West Midlands.

From August, the charges will better transport says the M6 toll

has been a complete failure, it has not benefited the economy and has

not eased congestion. Apart from that it is going really well.

debate has been going on for years. I appeared on this programme years

ago many years ago to see this road was a daft idea.

Privately, the Transport Secretary at the time said to me, I think it

is a daft idea, as well, but it is Mrs Thatcher's pet project.

I think that Midland motorways, who own it, have the lease in

perpetuity. I don't know how you will take it off them or how much it

will cost the taxpayer. I don't go for the Norman can tell us.

could see it as an investment, or maybe partial public ownership, that

organisation says it is taking almost �3 billion out of the economy

saw easing that and having a proportion as Michael up with --

having a proportion of public ownership would be an investment.

would love that. I would say that it is daft at the moment to have a

section of motorway as a bypass then charging extra for it. And after

idea from when you were in the cabinet, Norman? -- a daft idea.

knew I would get blamed! We are where we are. It was not one of my

proposals, but I think it was worth doing. Peter raises the important

and crucial point, but how much does public ownership cost? It will cost

a vast amount of money. If the economy and the government has that

are made of money, I want it going into infrastructure projects which

will create jobs. -- that amount of money. I don't want it being used in

a dead way in this report. Infrastructure problems including a

link from the M6 toll to the M 54. Apparently there are debts of over

�1 billion plus they would have to stump up over �100 million towards

that motorway road. They are content to let congestion continue on the

M6. Is that reasonable? I am not going to try and run this road for

them, but the government has choices. The choice at this

particular time is whether there are going to use some very rare capital

in actually buying it back, or whether they are going to put it

into something more productive. would not make sense to take it as

part of the road network. A major shareholder is McQuarrie, an

Australian finance company. It shows the barmy way of financing it in the

first place. So far, the debate about press

regulation has been mainly about the nationals. Lord Fowler, former

chairman of Midland Independent newspapers, once the government to

get on with its plans for a regulator, but only last week it

emerged they were being soft pedalled while rival scheme is

considered for the industry to regulate itself. The irony is that

local papers, who did not act anyone's phones, could be hit

addition of Stoke-on-Trent's main daily newspaper, the centre, arrives

at newsagents. It has been serving the people of North Staffordshire

since 1854. People believe we fight their battles and campaign for them,

and over the years we have given them a voice. If this paper did not

exist they would not have that voice. Despite the proud history,

local newspapers have not escaped the Leveson Inquiry. They along with

the rest of the industry have rejected his recommendations.

Levinson should look at the national press in isolation, they are of the

bad boys, we are not. -- the Leveson Inquiry should look at.

The inquiry was set up after hacking scandals which took in a host of

celebrities and murder victims' families. Tom Watson was one of the

leading figures in the battle to bring the press, the Murdoch press

in particular, to heal. You must be the first Mafia boss to

not know his operation's activities. I think that is unfair.

Almost everything that happened that led to the Leveson Inquiry was a

criminal act. It could have been covered by

criminal law. There is no need in order internet, global world for a

series of best regulations which look at national media. It just

won't work and is doomed to failure. But is it fair to treat the

generally well-behaved local press in the same way as the red tops?

they are operating good practice it will not be a burden, it will be a

benefit because the public know they can trust the journalism they are

producing. All this comes at a time newspaper circulations have been

plummeting. Over the last ten years, the sentinel's circulation has been

cut in half. In ten years the figure is down 45%. It is a figure that is

typical of many local papers. At the moment, the main parties are in

rough agreement they need to be tough new rules, but the papers

themselves are proposing their own regulator, leaving deadlock, making

the future for local papers look even more uncertain.

We will have more about Tom Watson later.

We are also joined today by the media commentator and consultant,

Steve Dyson, former editor of the Birmingham mail, who spent 20 years

in the regional newspaper industry. How serious is the threat this poses

for local papers? RV scaremongering? -- RV scaremongering?

I don't think so. The local press holds people to

account at a very local level. They make sure the public is listened to

and act as a watchdog. Yet if the full edition happens as a result of

the Levinson inquiry, the potential cost will be catastrophic for local

and regional press. -- if the fool legislation. They will have to pay

the same amount as the national press. One of the things that may

endanger them is the bravery of the local press to stand up for the

local public. Will they do that if they are threatened with crippling

costs? Surely if they have nothing to hide they have nothing to fear?

It is a guarantee of proper journalistic conduct, surely good

newspapers will really go through this without any particular

difficulty? What the regional industry would say

is why involve them at all thank you Michael at the moment the regional

newspapers are very beholden to the press complaints commission. They

take it very seriously and people are able to complain to that system

and they get their just deserts, there are treated properly. Why

involve the local press at all to why can we not have a system where

the local press are still look after something like -- by something like

the PCC. It has been said the locals are

getting the brunt of it, there is a real sense of bitterness there in

the in the street, isn't there a two there is -- isn't there?

There is, we want to undermine it, things like Millie Dowler and

Madeline McCann had nothing to do with the local and regional

newspapers. It was a national problem. Norman, a national problem

being visited on the locals. Isn't there a point that in the internet

age you really cannot lift out the papers and treat them artificial

place separately? The criminal law would have got this anyway?

I don't accept that argument that criminal law would have taken it.

What has been evidenced by the Leveson Inquiry is the degree of

corruption there has been in some newspapers. I totally agree that

local and regional press have many -- in many ways much higher

standards, but the government has to deal with the scandal at the moment.

The fact of the matter is that we have had something like 40 people

charged, over 100 arrests, that is what we are doing. I don't think it

can be just swept away. I was a journalist, not just chairman of

Midland Independent news, I started as a journalist. I came into

journalism because I thought journalism was something about

exposing wrongdoing, you are getting into serious trouble when you get to

a position where it is the newspaper or some of the newspapers who are

doing the wrong doing. I think we can see in this

discussion how politicians have been fooled by public opinion -- pooled

by public opinion and the newspaper industry. What is the way through

this? I think we have to implement what

the Leveson Inquiry says. When I was elected in 1974 there were two

thriving newspapers, the Birmingham evening mail and the West

Staffordshire evening Star. Both had offices in West Bromwich,

experienced journalists who knew what they were doing. The fact is

there are very few local papers any more, they are owned by big

conglomerates, experienced journalists are let go and younger,

something is unqualified people are employed. The crucial point is,

because of that, the regional press takes much of its news from what is

happening in local newspapers and some of the lies and distortion and

corruption Norman was talking about in the national papers has been

reflected at local level, too. do you make of Mick Temple's other

points that you cannot realistically in the electronic age regulate the

newspapers separately from all the rest of the Citizen journalism,

blogs and the rest of it? I agree there are problems on the

internet and things of that kind, but you already have systems

frolicking at complaints and standards, for example the BBC has a

very strict code of restriction on and impartiality. I think, frankly,

the press proprietors, remember the National union of journalists are in

favour of the Leveson Inquiry. It is the proprietors against it. The

difference, I will not go into it because it will send everyone boggle

eyed, but the difference between what the government and Parliament

are saying and what the press proprietors are saying is not

fantastic. We're having a ridiculously big debate on a small

amount of ground. Peter raised the point about the

role of local papers, thinking about local democracy and council

meetings, a key part of accountability.

This is a real concern, isn't it? There is, but I would compare local

newspapers and nationals to local MPs and national MPs. Would you have

a different set of regulations for MPs and local councillors? No, you

would not. Fascinating stuff, and we could go

on all day for this, but we have to draw a halt today. For the moment,

thank you. By the way, the new editor of the

Shropshire Star, Martin Wright, is due in the hot seat on BBC Radio

Shropshire. How will he deal with falling circulations and the Leveson

Report? Our regular 62nd round up of the

politics in the Midlands brought to been created by Stoke city council

to fix the 3000 bottles left by winter's bad weather. Brand-new

trams are heading this way from Spain. They will run on an extension

to the Midlands metro network past Birmingham new Street station.

John and Maureen's home has been demolished by the council after they

did not have the proper planning permission. It is not something the

council takes lightly or does very often and it is a very reluctant

step. Unfortunately in this case, we did not have much option.

There have been calls to ban Chinese lanterns following a huge fire at a

recycling plant in Smethwick. 13 firefighters were injured, the

cost of the damage was around �6 million.

And Labour MP Tom Watson has resigned from his Shadow Cabinet

role as general election coordinator. He has been embroiled

in a row about candidate selection in Falkirk.

Tom Watson's predecessor in West Bromwich each was -- West Bromwich

East was none other than Peter Snape. In particularly a marginal

region like ours, vote rigging, rent a mob tactics, it is what you don't

need in a region like ours at a time like this, isn't it? It was

completely ill -- exaggerated by certain elements of the press.

People have always tried to get favoured candidates, Nadhim Zahawi

was not the favoured candidate of the Conservatives, he was parachuted

Are you averse to the use of a parachute in the Labour ranks?

In politics, if people turn up at meetings they occasionally get their

own way. All parties use the parachute, the

Tories have a relation with business... It is not the parachute

people were concerned with it is the fact that one union went off and

joined up 100 people, paid their subscriptions so they could be

voting. That is extraordinary. were suspended from the Party for

doing it. They were, but if Peter wants to

demonstrate to the country that this is all fine and above board, why

does he not have the independent investigation that Mr McCluskey is

looking for? That may well happen, but Tom has

paid the price and resigned, and I regret that because I am an admirer

of my successor. We could continue but I regret to say this is the

point where the crop has beaten us. I thank Norman Fowler and Peter

Snape, next week we will be posing the really big question - how

European are you due Michael with under one year to go until the

European elections it is possibly the great defining question of our

times, but would our part of the country be better off or worse off

out of the EU? Next week we will hear the arguments for and against,

and I will be joined by MPs Margot James and Jack draw me, as well as