22/09/2013 Sunday Politics West Midlands


22/09/2013

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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband and the

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rest of the Labour clan are in Brighton for their party conference

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this weekend. He's promised policies galore. But as a Sunday Politics

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poll finds a third of his own councillors don't think he's doing a

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good job, will that be enough to steady the Labour ship?

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Back in Westminster, they're partying like it's 2006, as Damian

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McBride's memoirs re-ignite the Blair-Brown wars. Alastair Campbell

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will tell us why he is sickened by the former Brown spin doctor.

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And speaking of political infighting, Conservative Party

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Chairman Grant Shapps will give his response to the rampant Tory-bashing

:01:15.:01:16.

And a big question in the Midlands, at the Lib Dem Conference

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And a big question in the Midlands, where is the beef?

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business. In London, Labour commands over the two thirds of the ethnic

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minority vote but now stands accused of institutional racism. Are they

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right? With me, the best and the brightest political panel in the

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business. Isabel Hardman, Janan be tweeting like demented Damians

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throughout the programme. First today, scrapping the bedroom tax.

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Universal childcare for primary school kids. More apprenticeships.

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Labour Conference only begins in earnest today, but the policy and

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spending commitments are coming according to the Labour leader's

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critics. He's been out and about this morning and told Andrew Marr

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that he knew it was going to be this morning and told Andrew Marr

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It is about a party that lost office three years ago. We are trying to be

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a one term opposition. That is tough. I believe it is a fight that

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we can win and I am up for that fight. The stakes are so high for

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young people who want a job, for people whose living standards are

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being squeezed. For people who think that this is not good enough for

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Britain. So what do key Labour Party activists - its councillors - think

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about the direction Mr Miliband activists - its councillors - think

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taking their party? Adam Fleming is in Brighton at the Party Conference

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with all the details of our latest exclusive Sunday Politics survey.

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conference set. Let us unwrap them. With the help of an opinion poll we

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surveyed 1350 Labour councillors across England and Wales. We wanted

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to find out what they think as Labour gathers for its conference.

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The Labour leader warmed up for Labour gathers for its conference.

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week by taking to his soap box in Brighton city centre. It is great

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week by taking to his soap box in councillors said they did not think

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Ed Miliband was doing a good job as leader. 30% said they thought the

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party would have a better chance if someone else was in charge at the

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next election. You will see more of Ed Miliband as we run-up to general

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election. He has been in the job for three years! Now it is crunch time.

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The other Ed, Ed Balls, was disliked by roughly one third of the party as

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well. Ed Balls is not a pop your man. He says things and he speaks

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his mind. -- not a popular man. diplomatic. Sadly Ed Balls did not

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seem to be that bothered about our survey. Over at a conference centre

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When it comes to relations with trade unions, the majority of Labour

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councillors thought things were absolutely fine. Just 9% thought

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things with the unions were a little bit too close. Tricky because Ed

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Miliband want to loosen the link. The shadow environment secretary

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arrived in Brighton ride bicycle from London to raise money for

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councillors what they would do if the next election results in a hung

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parliament, just over half said the next election results in a hung

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would tell the lid Dems to get on their bikes. We would never say

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would tell the lid Dems to get on to going into coalition. It gives us

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the chance to be in government and prepare some of the damage of the

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last three years. So are you going to start being nice about the Lib

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Dems? I always treat them with courtesy. And the parties admitted

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that perhaps they had opened the door to too many immigrants. It

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that perhaps they had opened the our survey Labour councillors of

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warming the felt that immigration We're now joined by the Shadow Chief

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Secretary to the Treasury, Rachel Reeves. Good morning. Let us start

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with Ed Miliband. Is it true that the team insisted that he be called

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the leader? I just call him Ed and I think the rest of the Shadow Cabinet

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do. Do you welcome working for a leader that says he is winning back

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socialism? We are a democratic important thing is that we have

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socialism? We are a democratic policies that will improve people 's

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lives and tackle the cost of living crisis facing so many families.

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Policies like expanding childcare, offering more apprenticeships, all

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policies that I think the country are calling out for after three

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years of a flat-lining economy and seeing prices rise faster than wages

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for 38 out of the 39 months but Minister. I think that is the most

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important thing. So it is OK now to risk their to the Labour Party again

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as the Socialist party? The clue is in the name, we stand up for working

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people. You are socialist party according to the leader. We have

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always been the Labour Party, that is our name and we stand up for

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working people, not the privileged few like this government with their

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tax cuts for millionaires. Those are privileged few. The Labour Party is

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about helping everyone in Britain, all families. Interesting that your

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run don't use the word socialist. In our survey one third of Labour

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councillors said Ed Miliband was not doing a good job as leader. If he

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councillors, who can he convince? Well you could say that two thirds

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of councillors think that he is Well you could say that two thirds

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right leader. But these are Labour councillors. The overall majority of

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Labour councillors think that he is doing a good job. What matters is

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the results on election day. Two thirds of councillors think that he

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is doing a good job. That us see what they say at the end of this

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week. Because I think the policies he is announcing will go down well

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week. Because I think the policies with Labour Party people and will

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also resonate with the British public. Policies like expanding

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apprenticeships, giving a break public. Policies like expanding

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struggling. I think people will public. Policies like expanding

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what kind of a leader that he is. Well he has a mountain to climb

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among all voters. Let me ask the question. Just 12% see him as a

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Prime Minister in waiting, just question. Just 12% see him as a

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see him as a natural leader. Why? If question. Just 12% see him as a

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you look at the overall opinion polls, we are consistently ahead in

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those polls. It is hard being leader demonstrate how you would be Prime

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Minister. By nature you are in opposition. But he has taken on

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Rupert Murdoch and the press barons. That is strong leadership, standing

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up to the vast majority. If you That is strong leadership, standing

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at his reforms to our relationship with the trade unions, strengthening

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ties with individual members. I think that he is a strong leader

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making the right decisions. If that is the case, why has the Labour

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making the right decisions. If that gone from 14 points one year ago to

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at most four points now. What went wrong? Well we are six or eight

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are six or eight points ahead in the consistently ahead. It looks as

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are six or eight points ahead in the we would get an overall majority if

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there was an election tomorrow. we would get an overall majority if

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we have more work to do to convince more people to vote for Labour.

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we have more work to do to convince this is a historic challenge, to be

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a one term Labour opposition. I this is a historic challenge, to be

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a one term Labour opposition. I believe that Ed Miliband will be the

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next Labour Prime Minister and will be an excellent Prime Minister. The

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big policy announcement today is the guaranteed childcare for all primary

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school children. How much will that government, they ring fenced money

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after-school and breakfast clubs. We think that money should be ring

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fenced again. How much will it cost? We are saying that schools

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within their budgets should be able to provide that. At the moment they

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can charge for children to come to provide that. At the moment they

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their first clubs. But this is a additional money. As it was under

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the last Labour government it will be about ring fencing money because

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we think that this is a priority. This is something that the schools

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should do. You cannot ring fenced money you do not have. You saying

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schoolchild from eight o'clock in the morning until six o'clock at

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night and it will not cost any more money? Well we did ring fence that

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money in the last Labour government. That money is gone! It has not gone.

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It is about priorities and we are saying that it should be a priority

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where is the money being spent now that you would take it from? If

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where is the money being spent now look at some of the things that

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where is the money being spent now government is doing, building free

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schools in areas where there are already enough. That is capital

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spending. We are ring fencing that priorities. We had the ring fence

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when we were in government. It would be reintroduced so that schools

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when we were in government. It would to offer that wraparound care. Of

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course schools can charge a small to offer that wraparound care. Of

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fee for their breakfast clubs and after-school DVDs. But the important

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thing is that provision is there for parents going out to work. Ed Balls

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and Ed Miliband are at the heart of the Brown project. Damien Wright was

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the hit man. Is it not inconceivable that they did not know what he was

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the hit man. Is it not inconceivable up to. It is inconceivable that

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the hit man. Is it not inconceivable did not -- Damian McBride. I am

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asking about Damian McBride. What did not -- Damian McBride. I am

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asking about Damian McBride. What I'm saying is that I was not there.

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I was not there under the last Labour government. But I do know

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that these things are not happening under the leadership of Ed Miliband.

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that backstabbing going on. There is no plotting against Ed Balls going

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on? I do not see that. And anyone who briefed against colleagues

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should be sacked, I agree with that. Nick Clegg's conference speech made

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it clear he was repaired to work with Ed Miliband in the event of a

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hung parliament. Are you excited by that prospect or is it just boring?

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That is very generous of Nick Clegg to say that. With his poll ratings

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of 9%. I think it is up to the general public to decide who they

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want to form a government. We are campaigning for an overall Labour

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that just boring boring? I want campaigning for an overall Labour

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serve in a Labour government is campaigning for an overall Labour

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a coalition government. That is campaigning for an overall Labour

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we are campaigning for. Thank you for joining us. Steve Richards,

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we are campaigning for. Thank you has Ed Miliband got to do this

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week? He has got to start to win the argument about the economy. I think

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they will be quite clever on that in terms of saying that the recovery

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has begun but it is not going to benefit many of the voters. Unlike

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previous economic recoveries. That is a strong line and they need to

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make that again and again. The recovery has barely started. The

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make that again and again. The interesting thing, Isabel, they

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make that again and again. The to make a living standards the issue

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let's return to living standards which have been squeezed. The polls

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show that twice as many people blame Labour for the living standards

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show that twice as many people blame the Conservatives. It is a great

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scene for them to mine, and it is the only one before they announce

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big policies, but they have not gained the trust of voters on the

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economy, so the Conservatives can say they are finishing the job of

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fixing the recovery now and then cannot quite trust us with the

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economy but we will talk about living standards. Ed Miliband's

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economy but we will talk about elucidating policies and not just

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incredibly vulnerable. The only thing worse than not having a policy

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for an opposition leader is to have a policy. It gives the opposition

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something to attack, the media something to scrutinise and it makes

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you bold rubble and you can see something to scrutinise and it makes

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coming through already before the conference has started. You have

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childcare. Spigot can he provide wraparound childcare for free?

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childcare. Spigot can he provide can he provide wraparound childcare

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for free? I don't even know what it is. Opposition is emphatically an

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art form, and the art form, and artform for them at the moment is to

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announce policies without spending any money and it is very difficult

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to do. You gave an illustration any money and it is very difficult

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how difficult it is. They are under huge pressure, for the last year, to

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announce policies and they announce one on childcare and you immediately

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say, how do you paper it? And she immediately says, we will not spend

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a penny on it, because they are terrified of spending anything.

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a penny on it, because they are is where it an artform. The tax

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suspension before and election is crazy, because they will find money

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one way or another, but in another way, they cannot say we will spend

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money on this. It is a real problem. How do you measure the state of

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money on this. It is a real problem. coalition after the Liberal Democrat

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conference? The Liberal Democrats were in a very strong position after

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their conference, Nick Clegg had faced and activists on some issues,

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including fracking, which they supported, which seem to be the

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including fracking, which they important part of the conference. In

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terms of the coalition, the Tories have had to sit and watch as Vince

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Cable, Nick Clegg and Coe have basically criticised them and said

:18:06.:18:10.

they are evil and only the Lib Dems can make sure the Government is

:18:10.:18:13.

they are evil and only the Lib Dems and works properly. So in terms

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they are evil and only the Lib Dems how the coalition works, you can

:18:15.:18:17.

expect to see some revenge at the Tory conference. The Lib Dems, Nick

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Clegg's followers, they had their revenge. Mister Clegg may have

:18:25.:18:32.

convinced his own activists to stay behind him, but he has a bigger

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convincing the British people. There is some interesting polling they

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have done privately that suggests there is a market of about 25% of

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the electorate which is plausibly open to them, and all they have

:18:46.:18:50.

the electorate which is plausibly do is target policies remorselessly

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at that group, rather than the broader public, in order to do well

:18:51.:18:55.

enough at the next election to hold the balance of power. That is why

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policies that seem weird to us, the balance of power. That is why

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free school meals regardless of income, may perversely make sense to

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them. Because it appeals to their political world we are in, the

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Labour strategists think they can political world we are in, the

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Labour strategists think they can win with 35%, the Lib Dems are going

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to concentrate on 25. The Tories win with 35%, the Lib Dems are going

:19:20.:19:22.

to concentrate on 25. The Tories have seized to be a national party

:19:22.:19:24.

any more. We haven't been used to it for a long time. In the 80s, one

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party dominated, the Tories. In for a long time. In the 80s, one

:19:28.:19:32.

90s into the 21st century, the policy matter delayed the Labour

:19:32.:19:39.

Party dominated. -- the Labour party dominated. We are now here but we

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have other parties hoping that dominated. We are now here but we

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will give them a small overall majority and it is the best they can

:19:46.:19:49.

get. It is a very odd situation where the main two parties feel

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get. It is a very odd situation can lose and the Lib Dems are openly

:19:55.:20:00.

targeting only 25%. They have gotten rid of 75% already and it is a long

:20:00.:20:05.

way from the policies of last couple of decades Nick Clegg talked about

:20:05.:20:12.

all of the policies he had locked. There is a real opportunity for

:20:13.:20:15.

all of the policies he had locked. Conservatives to say that he is

:20:15.:20:17.

blocking all of the things that voters outside of our bays are

:20:17.:20:21.

interested in, top immigration policy, human rights reform, that

:20:21.:20:26.

sort of thing. David Cameron can say that in Manchester next week. One

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thing was quite clear, it came out of this awayday, and and this is

:20:30.:20:46.

this, that when you look at Mister Miller band's polls, the Tories

:20:46.:20:51.

this, that when you look at Mister going to make this a presidential

:20:51.:20:57.

Which is why I am curious why they When the strength of your party

:20:57.:21:04.

Which is why I am curious why they against his opponents, why not have

:21:04.:21:07.

him or her juxtaposed against them in 90 minutes three times a week.

:21:07.:21:09.

past week has given us inklings When the Lib Dems gathered for their

:21:09.:21:17.

Government is planning on fighting When the Lib Dems gathered for their

:21:17.:21:24.

annual shindig in Glasgow, some ministers were non-too complimentary

:21:24.:21:25.

about their blue blood fellows. ministers were non-too complimentary

:21:25.:21:31.

bedfellows. Vince Cable led the ministers were non-too complimentary

:21:31.:21:36.

Tories had reverted to type as a nasty party and describe their

:21:36.:21:40.

politics as ugly, cynical, callous and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not

:21:40.:21:44.

restrict himself to policies that and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not

:21:44.:21:47.

the Lib Dems had champion, such and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not

:21:47.:21:49.

increasing the amount you can earn before paying tax. The Deputy Prime

:21:49.:21:58.

Minister proudly listed all of the things he had stopped the Tories

:21:58.:22:01.

from doing. Speak of scrapping housing benefit the young people,

:22:01.:22:05.

no. No to ditching the human rights act. No to weakening the protections

:22:05.:22:13.

in the equalities act. So how much of a break have the yellow brigade

:22:13.:22:16.

being on Conservative ambitions question mark in the two leaders

:22:16.:22:18.

shake hands again after the 20 question mark in the two leaders

:22:18.:22:22.

election, what policies were David Cameron insist on. -- 2015? No

:22:22.:22:29.

matter how many times Nick Clegg And Grant Shapps joins me the Sunday

:22:29.:22:32.

Grant Shapps, good morning. Nick self-styled. He boasted to his

:22:32.:22:48.

conference that he had stopped the Tories from going ahead with 16

:22:48.:22:53.

policies in government. Is this accurate? I don't know but what

:22:53.:22:56.

policies in government. Is this can tell you, as your commentator

:22:56.:22:59.

Isabel said, some of the policies that we wanted them if we were a

:22:59.:23:03.

majority government sent out to that we wanted them if we were a

:23:03.:23:06.

very popular things, like reforming the human rights act and some of the

:23:06.:23:10.

problems that provides when it comes to sending people who have no right

:23:10.:23:11.

to be in this country back. So there to be in this country back. So there

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may be some things we could have inheritance tax cut? I don't know

:23:15.:23:24.

the details, but I think it is negotiation and sometimes you can't

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get everything you want, and we negotiation and sometimes you can't

:23:30.:23:35.

done the best, given where the electoral maths left us. That is why

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70 people in this country say they electoral maths left us. That is why

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70 people in this country say they would rather see a single party

:23:39.:23:42.

running the country -- why so many people. I have to say I agree. They

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Give me a couple of major policies that you would introduce if you

:23:49.:23:53.

Give me a couple of major policies had a majority in 2010 and were

:23:53.:23:56.

Give me a couple of major policies held back by the Lib Dems. Speaking

:23:56.:24:02.

the one I just mentioned would be Country, we have had 1,000 years of

:24:02.:24:08.

than capable of putting in place developing the law and we are more

:24:08.:24:11.

than capable of putting in place sensible laws. you would have left

:24:11.:24:14.

the European Court of human rights. We have already started the process

:24:15.:24:19.

of negotiation. There was some progress, but limited, and we would

:24:19.:24:23.

like to move further. Let me give you one other. I think this country

:24:23.:24:27.

has a great future but we can only ourselves the best place in the

:24:27.:24:30.

world to come and set up a business. ourselves the best place in the

:24:30.:24:34.

If we make ourselves the best place entrepreneurship and I think there

:24:34.:24:39.

are a host of things we could do to go further on cutting back red tape.

:24:39.:24:44.

And the Lib Dems have stopped you? I think that is the case. In what

:24:44.:24:52.

ways, if any, have the Lib Dems improved the coalition process? It

:24:52.:24:56.

has been a stable government. No one talks about when the next election

:24:57.:24:58.

will come, we know it is in May talks about when the next election

:24:58.:25:04.

but that is in part being in a coalition. The Tories wouldn't have

:25:04.:25:10.

done that? It wasn't the plan of any party to go from... In the old days,

:25:10.:25:16.

there would have been speculation. debate, you changed the British

:25:16.:25:21.

constitution in a fundamental way and nobody got a say. It was debated

:25:21.:25:27.

on the floor of the Has, as all constitutional changes are and there

:25:27.:25:33.

was a lot of agreement -- of the House. Nobody has ever said to me

:25:33.:25:36.

that it is a problem that we now have a fixed term parliament. Here

:25:36.:25:44.

it is, every five years. This is what it has done, it has provided

:25:44.:25:49.

stability in an incredibly uncertain economic time and that has been

:25:49.:25:52.

stability in an incredibly uncertain for the economy. we will chalk that

:25:52.:26:01.

up to delete -- Lib Dem. What about taking people out of tax, the Lib

:26:01.:26:09.

Dems did that question mark it is a great policy. It is a conservative

:26:09.:26:15.

led government, it is a Conservative This is a screen grab from your

:26:15.:26:21.

party's website, income tax cut This is a screen grab from your

:26:21.:26:25.

25 million people. You are taking the credit for it, it wouldn't have

:26:25.:26:29.

happened without the Lib Dems. It certainly came about because of

:26:29.:26:33.

happened without the Lib Dems. It coalition and we put it in the

:26:33.:26:35.

coalition agreement. It could not have happened without a Conservative

:26:35.:26:36.

Chancellor making it happen. It have happened without a Conservative

:26:36.:26:41.

right, 25 million people taken out of tax. Another 17 by this April

:26:41.:26:48.

will not be paying tax at all. you didn't want to do it. Look at what

:26:48.:26:52.

David Cameron told Nick Clegg during What Nick Clegg is promising is

:26:52.:27:06.

David Cameron told Nick Clegg during £17 billion tax cut. We are saying,

:27:06.:27:10.

stop the waste of 6 billion to stop the national insurance rise. I would

:27:10.:27:14.

love to take everyone out of their first £10,000 of income tax, it

:27:14.:27:17.

love to take everyone out of their beautiful idea but we cannot afford

:27:17.:27:24.

unaffordable and now you are taking the credit for it. I feel like it is

:27:24.:27:30.

having a three year afterwards argument, and we got into coalition

:27:30.:27:33.

because the British people put us there and we agreed to make the

:27:33.:27:37.

because the British people put us of it. And as it happens, if you

:27:37.:27:41.

absolutely think it is the right thing to take as many people out of

:27:41.:27:46.

tax entirely as possible. Two points 7 million people pay no tax at all

:27:46.:27:54.

threshold. -- 2.7 million. I'm pleased it worked out. What are

:27:54.:27:59.

threshold. -- 2.7 million. I'm most important thing is a majority

:27:59.:27:59.

Tory government would do after most important thing is a majority

:27:59.:28:05.

unencumbered by the Lib Dems? I think produce even more jobs when

:28:05.:28:08.

unemployment goes down, because think produce even more jobs when

:28:08.:28:11.

are the most entrepreneurial place to set up a business. Are more

:28:11.:28:16.

free-market economy? We make our money because we are out global

:28:16.:28:20.

trading economy. That is why it money because we are out global

:28:20.:28:26.

so important that we have to make sure it is easy to trade around

:28:26.:28:30.

so important that we have to make world. One simple example, it is

:28:30.:28:32.

crazy in my view that we have global tariffs that prevent some of the

:28:32.:28:34.

hardest other countries in the tariffs that prevent some of the

:28:34.:28:36.

hardest other countries in the world, in developing parts of the

:28:36.:28:36.

world, from exporting to us and world, in developing parts of the

:28:36.:28:43.

versa. I'm giving you a platform of things that I think we would be

:28:43.:28:47.

versa. I'm giving you a platform of interested in progressing in. It

:28:48.:28:51.

sounds like you are talking about even more Thatcherite, market led

:28:51.:28:52.

agendas. I think that you did a even more Thatcherite, market led

:28:52.:28:59.

amount to show this country that if you want to help the least well

:28:59.:29:02.

amount to show this country that if people in society, and the least

:29:03.:29:05.

well off people in the world, around the globe, the way to do it is to

:29:05.:29:09.

trade, and I think we should have an economy which is much more open

:29:09.:29:14.

trade, and I think we should have an free trade. If there is another

:29:14.:29:15.

trade, and I think we should have an parliament, and the poll suggest

:29:15.:29:19.

there might be, at the moment it is all to play for on both sides, what

:29:19.:29:25.

would your non-negotiable Red Line speak? We are still two years away

:29:25.:29:31.

from that, it is a long way away, but there is a lot we want to lay

:29:31.:29:35.

out. What we are going to be saying to this country is most people want

:29:36.:29:40.

a single party running the country, they think it is clean and clear and

:29:40.:29:44.

you don't end up with negotiation setting out a very clear platform

:29:44.:29:49.

which will be for hard-working people in this country who want

:29:49.:29:52.

which will be for hard-working work hard and get on in life. We

:29:52.:29:55.

would, I think, want to see the welfare state that we have got into,

:29:55.:29:59.

where it is no longer about helping those most in need but became a

:29:59.:30:02.

situation where you are better off not working than in worker, I think

:30:02.:30:08.

we plan to ensure that this is an incredibly fair place to go out

:30:08.:30:11.

we plan to ensure that this is an do a day's work and get the money at

:30:11.:30:14.

the end of the day rather than thinking there is an alternative.

:30:14.:30:18.

you have promised a referendum on UK membership of the EU in 2017, that

:30:18.:30:20.

must be your first Red Line? We membership of the EU in 2017, that

:30:20.:30:27.

clear, we want to see a referendum, a reform European Union. So no

:30:27.:30:35.

poll... ? I should remind viewers that there is an act of Parliament,

:30:35.:30:38.

a bill going through Parliament right now, for a referendum on the

:30:38.:30:46.

EU, which comes back to the House. It is past the report stage and

:30:46.:30:49.

comes back in November and we will be discussing it. The Lib Dems,

:30:49.:30:55.

Labour, will have an opportunity to support what the British people

:30:55.:31:01.

want. Lots may have changed. But it would be a Red Line for any future

:31:01.:31:04.

coalition government question mark we are clear that it is time to

:31:04.:31:14.

coalition government question mark manifesto. What is wrong with yes or

:31:14.:31:16.

no? I cannot write the manifesto for 2015. You are asking me to project

:31:16.:31:22.

beyond that and see in advance the election result and carry out the

:31:22.:31:26.

negotiations that are yet to come. I'm just trying to work out how

:31:26.:31:31.

much... I know you are committed but she won't tell me. Let's move on.

:31:31.:31:41.

Your party has been described as nasty and blinkered. What do you

:31:41.:31:48.

feel when he says that? We are interested in helping the most

:31:48.:31:54.

vulnerable people in society. I think we're doing all that and more.

:31:54.:32:01.

And it is a shame that that language was used because we have made so

:32:01.:32:05.

much progress together. Are you getting to the end of your tether

:32:05.:32:07.

with Mr King? I do not think it getting to the end of your tether

:32:07.:32:22.

terribly helpful for any Cabinet minister to make comments like that.

:32:23.:32:25.

What I would say is that Nick Clegg minister to make comments like that.

:32:25.:32:35.

is the leader of the Lib Dems and entitled to have a view on it

:32:35.:32:40.

himself. Look at these figures on party membership. Why has your party

:32:40.:32:47.

lost half of its members since Mr Cameron became leader? I would like

:32:47.:32:53.

it to be more. But I think the world has changed. People do not rush out

:32:54.:32:58.

and join political parties as they used to. Instead they support you in

:32:58.:33:08.

different ways. If I released the number of people who give to the

:33:08.:33:12.

party in different ways, through donations for example, through

:33:12.:33:18.

friend memberships. If you include that that figure goes back up. But

:33:18.:33:26.

your membership has fallen by 50% at a time when UKIP has doubled. I do

:33:26.:33:36.

not want to to misinterpret what I want to say. It is important to gain

:33:36.:33:44.

members. I think we will have done that by the time of the next

:33:44.:33:47.

election. But one statistic of interest, in the last election I had

:33:47.:33:54.

a 17,000 majority in my own constituency. The difference was I

:33:54.:34:00.

had 1000 people helping me to deliver leaflets and knock on the

:34:00.:34:05.

doors. The Conservative party has changed. We now have an army of

:34:05.:34:14.

people, volunteers who are not necessarily traditional members. The

:34:14.:34:20.

days when you expect people to give you £25, before you accept their

:34:20.:34:26.

support, those days have passed. You spoke about your most vulnerable

:34:26.:34:33.

marginal seats. This is a poll from Michael Ashcroft. The 40 most

:34:33.:34:40.

marginal seats that you will be defending. Labour is way up, you are

:34:40.:34:48.

way down and UKIP is also up. What is happening, the Lib Dem Mo -- both

:34:48.:34:58.

are moving to Labour. And disillusioned Conservatives are

:34:58.:35:02.

moving to UKIP. If these figures came at an election he would lose 32

:35:02.:35:09.

of these 40 seats. The point about any opinion poll is that it is

:35:09.:35:13.

perhaps accurate at the moment it is taken. We are now in a position

:35:13.:35:18.

where the economy has turned the corner. The right thing to do was to

:35:19.:35:30.

deal with the deficit. The people being asked about these things, they

:35:30.:35:35.

will be interested in their own standard of living. Their mortgage

:35:35.:35:41.

payments. Why are you doing worse in the marginal seats? National League

:35:41.:35:49.

you are kind of nip and tuck with Labour. Well if that is the pick to

:35:49.:35:56.

come 2015, people will see that this government has stuck to its guns. It

:35:56.:36:00.

did not go for more borrowing and spending. And the record

:36:00.:36:06.

demonstrates that the last thing you want to do is give the car keys back

:36:06.:36:12.

to the people who crashed it in the first place. Lynton Crosby at this

:36:12.:36:17.

away day of Conservative MPs, his one message was to go all out and

:36:17.:36:24.

attack Ed Miliband. It is going to be a nasty election. That is

:36:24.:36:31.

actually not true. We are going to focus on his policies, if he finally

:36:31.:36:36.

announces some. Everything we have seen so far suggests it would mean

:36:36.:36:42.

more borrowing and spending. The shadow chancellor said we would be

:36:42.:36:53.

ruthless, just a few months later, 27.9 pounds of extra spending

:36:53.:36:58.

committed by Labour. These are your figures. I will speak to you about

:36:58.:37:08.

that during the Tory conference. It's just after 11:30. You're

:37:08.:37:11.

watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes. Alastair

:37:11.:37:15.

Campbell gives us his not-too-positive review of Damian

:37:15.:37:16.

Hello once again from the Midlands. McBride's memoirs. Until

:37:16.:37:31.

Hello once again from the Midlands. I'm Patrick Burns. And we're joined

:37:31.:37:35.

today by a Gloucestershire MP and an MEP representing everywhere in the

:37:35.:37:37.

Midlands, except Gloucestershire, Michael Cashman is the West Midlands

:37:37.:37:46.

Labour MEP. A former actor, the child star of the original West End

:37:46.:37:54.

version of 'Oliver!'. And Martin Horwood, Liberal Democrat MP for

:37:54.:37:56.

Cheltenham, had an interesting childhood, too. His parents worked

:37:56.:38:00.

at GCHQ and at Bletchley Park before that. Martin spoke passionately in

:38:00.:38:17.

the Commons against the badger cull, currently being piloted in

:38:18.:38:22.

parts of his county. He will be interested to know that Owen

:38:22.:38:28.

Patterson told me that he was the true best friend of the badger. Why?

:38:28.:38:35.

Because average weight of badgers in the Irish Republic are up by £1 per

:38:35.:38:41.

animal and that as a result of the cull that has taken secondly badgers

:38:41.:38:50.

out of the ecosystem. —— badgers with TB. What would you say to Owen

:38:50.:38:57.

Patterson? If the government wants to rely on evidence, they should

:38:57.:39:01.

know that the badger cull does not make any difference to bovine TB.

:39:01.:39:04.

The government commissioned an expert study at great length and

:39:05.:39:08.

expense and has ignored the evidence and I am sorry about that and I

:39:08.:39:13.

think the cull is a mistake. David Heath, my Liberal Democrat colleague

:39:13.:39:17.

in the department, is doing some of the right things on cattle movement

:39:17.:39:21.

and that is something positive. Where do you stand on this,

:39:21.:39:28.

Michael? We have the cull and the vaccination, all sorts of different

:39:28.:39:34.

ways and evidence? I do not agree with Owen Patterson on his views on

:39:34.:39:37.

climate change and I do not agree with him on this. He refused to

:39:37.:39:44.

answer a question in the House of Commons about the numbers that have

:39:44.:39:49.

actually been culled. We are told it is fewer than 100 and a botched

:39:49.:39:55.

cull, according to the scientists, will actually spread of bovine TB

:39:55.:39:59.

rather than reduce it. I want them to go and talk to the scientist,

:39:59.:40:05.

look at what is happening in the field and change their plans,

:40:05.:40:07.

because it is important for the countryside is that everyone who

:40:07.:40:13.

lives and works there is involved. And Owen Paterson has been a busy

:40:13.:40:17.

man. He was in Moscow, as Russia finally agreed to lift its ban on

:40:17.:40:20.

British beef. It was the last country to end its restrictions, 27

:40:21.:40:24.

years after the BSE epidemic. Now comes the farming export drive. Our

:40:24.:40:26.

Rural Affairs Correspondent David Gregory—Kumar has been finding out

:40:27.:40:29.

how the government can help our farmers compete with their European

:40:29.:40:43.

counterparts, in world markets. Angus Beef in Shropshire. Turning a

:40:43.:40:47.

necessary by product of our Midlands dairy industry into a valuable

:40:47.:40:50.

product in it's own right. With the Russian Beef—ban lifted this is a

:40:50.:40:53.

prime product for export. Beef farmer Dan Morris has been to Russia

:40:53.:40:56.

and hosted a returning Russian delegation here on his farm.

:40:56.:41:06.

Something like that could have a huge impact here in Shropshire in

:41:06.:41:11.

terms of jobs and investment. Beef farmer Dan Morris has been to Russia

:41:11.:41:15.

and hosted a returning Russian delegation here on his farm. It

:41:15.:41:20.

would be disingenuous to say it was all down to me, but we certainly had

:41:20.:41:24.

a role to play in building relationships. But Dan says the

:41:24.:41:30.

government's work doesn't stop with the lifting of the ban. Now he has

:41:30.:41:36.

identified this opportunity, he needs to get the department involved

:41:36.:41:39.

in linking the people that will buy are meat in Russia to the people

:41:39.:41:43.

that process are animals, link them together, and that is the way we

:41:43.:41:50.

will generate extra demand. South to Herefordshire, where this glorious

:41:50.:41:52.

people's potato harvest will mean production is higher than ever! No,

:41:52.:42:02.

really! Once this potato has been turned into vulgar it is right for

:42:02.:42:05.

exporting and the people who do that are so good at it, and even export

:42:05.:42:11.

it to the Russians ——. Go. Yes, the man who brought us Tyrell's crisps

:42:11.:42:15.

is now in the alcohol business. And he's learnt a LOT about export since

:42:15.:42:19.

trying to get the french to buy Tyrell's vegetable crisps. We have

:42:19.:42:29.

the French did not like parsnips. We need the knowledge to look for a

:42:29.:42:32.

market and see what people are looking for. The government have not

:42:32.:42:36.

started to touch it, when you look at other countries, like France, the

:42:36.:42:43.

government will support you. It is amazing how much support they put

:42:43.:42:50.

into their farmers. Everyone has worked hard to get the last British

:42:50.:42:54.

beef ban lifted. But that's only the start. Shouldn't we learn from the

:42:54.:43:05.

French, looking at the European perspective, because they will

:43:05.:43:09.

support French exporting farmers with up to 50% of their promotional

:43:09.:43:16.

costs. We do a fair level of expert support —— export support, but we

:43:16.:43:20.

need to do more. What we are doing is looking at how our concept of

:43:20.:43:25.

regional investment banks can help these farmers. They have done a

:43:25.:43:28.

brilliant job selling their cattle and beef and at EU level, Labour

:43:28.:43:36.

members are pursuing the free trade agreements with countries like the

:43:36.:43:40.

US, India, China and Brazil and Russia, so that we have three axis

:43:40.:43:45.

into their markets which creates jobs and growth. The bottom line is

:43:45.:43:51.

that there is a big opportunity. It could be worth 100,000 extra

:43:51.:43:56.

animals, beef cattle, it is big bucks for farmers. He is quite right

:43:56.:44:01.

about pushing the free trade agreements. Should the government do

:44:01.:44:10.

more in terms of educating and assisting farmers? Yes. The former

:44:10.:44:18.

mentioned UK trade and investment. That gets rave reviews. We know that

:44:18.:44:24.

they are weaker in other industries. Agriculture and trying to sell beef

:44:24.:44:29.

and even vodka would be a good idea. We have to give due credit to the

:44:29.:44:34.

farmers union, who threw out the BSE crisis and through these bands have

:44:34.:44:40.

been unrelenting forbidding the case for British produce. We produce some

:44:40.:44:44.

of the best in the world, let us get a hind it. It is a big challenge for

:44:44.:44:51.

farmers to understand cultural and language issues, the Russians love

:44:51.:44:57.

beef hearts, it is hard to understand what the market needs.

:44:57.:45:05.

Education and training is provided, we need to learn the lessons from

:45:05.:45:10.

other countries. Especially other European countries. The keyword is

:45:10.:45:21.

research. Thank you. Here's a puzzle: what do these places have in

:45:21.:45:24.

common? Cannock Chase, Wolverhampton South West, Dudley South, North

:45:24.:45:26.

Warwickshire, Warwick and Leamington, Worcester, and

:45:26.:45:28.

Gloucester? Answer: they all have Conservative MPs with majorities

:45:28.:45:31.

under 5,000, so they should be prime Labour targets. But with no great

:45:31.:45:34.

surge in popularity, the polls suggest Labour's best chance is for

:45:34.:45:37.

UKIP to keep winning over disenchanted Tories. We'll hear from

:45:37.:45:40.

Nigel Farage shortly. But I put it to Ed Miliband that this was a very

:45:41.:45:44.

roundabout way of trying to wind seats. If we" looking at the

:45:44.:46:03.

election scene, it comes to something when Labour's best chance

:46:03.:46:08.

in those Tory marginals is strong support for the UKIP vote? I think

:46:08.:46:15.

that we will fight very hard and very well at the General Election in

:46:15.:46:18.

the West Midlands and we are going to be talking about the most

:46:18.:46:22.

important issue facing families at our conference and the General

:46:22.:46:26.

Election, which is the cost of living crisis. We have got a

:46:26.:46:29.

government that is saying we have got a recovery, but most ordinary

:46:29.:46:33.

families think life is getting harder. They do not have a

:46:33.:46:38.

government on their side, we would be that government. I asked the

:46:38.:46:43.

question, because that is exactly the point that that poll released a

:46:43.:46:47.

few days ago makes, but it is precisely in places like

:46:47.:46:52.

Gloucester, Tory marginal seats that UKIP pose the biggest threat to the

:46:53.:46:59.

Tories. We will fight for every vote because we have an important message

:46:59.:47:02.

for people considering voting for other parties. It is a message about

:47:02.:47:09.

how we tackle the problems Britain is facing. You can take two views

:47:09.:47:13.

about Britain, that the economy is fixed, which is what the government

:47:13.:47:17.

says, or you can think of that Britain should be doing a lot better

:47:17.:47:20.

and ordinary family should be doing better, and that is what we are

:47:20.:47:25.

about and that is what we will be talking about. When we talk together

:47:25.:47:30.

a year ago, you gave me an absolutely unequivocal undertaking

:47:30.:47:34.

of your support for high—speed rail, is that still the case

:47:34.:47:40.

eyes—macro yes. It is an important project for Britain, I am concerned

:47:40.:47:45.

about the rising costs, , but we have said we will scrutinise it for

:47:45.:47:49.

value for money. At a time like this, you cannot have blank chap ——

:47:49.:47:54.

blank cheques, but I continue to support it. Last week, Ed Balls was

:47:54.:48:00.

unenthusiastic about it, possibly the concern is about the money, but

:48:00.:48:04.

his language was very reserved and cautious and does not seem to chime

:48:04.:48:09.

with the optimism we have in this all—party consensus about it. It is

:48:09.:48:15.

correct to have a Shadow Chancellor who wants to make sure that things

:48:15.:48:19.

are value for money and what he said and what I have said is the same. We

:48:19.:48:24.

need a better infrastructure, I think high—speed rail can play a

:48:24.:48:27.

part and that is why I am a supporter, but I think the British

:48:27.:48:31.

people would expect the Labour Party and any party to be concerned and

:48:31.:48:36.

careful about making sure that every project is value for money and

:48:36.:48:39.

high—speed rail is exactly part of that. I have to ask you about the

:48:39.:48:54.

fallout from Falkirk, because that led to the departure of Tom Watson

:48:54.:48:56.

who has since spoken about rash decisions by the leadership. He is a

:48:56.:48:59.

dangerous man to be outside the camp. He is a good and decent person

:48:59.:49:03.

who has distinguished himself in many ways, like the campaign around

:49:03.:49:08.

phone hacking. He is somebody who is a friend of mine. The reason idea

:49:08.:49:13.

what I did around Falkirk and the other issues is I am determined to

:49:13.:49:17.

uphold the integrity of my party and I am determined to change my parties

:49:17.:49:21.

so that it can hear the voices of individual working people,

:49:22.:49:25.

individual members of trade Unions, we will get those changes through,

:49:25.:49:29.

so we are are a proper party who can fight for working people on the

:49:29.:49:37.

issues that matter. Ed Miliband there and it was also in that

:49:37.:49:41.

interview that he committed a Labour government to scrapping what he

:49:41.:49:45.

calls the bedroom tax, while David Cameron says it is the current spare

:49:45.:49:49.

room subsidy which needs to be abolished. Labour would close a

:49:49.:49:55.

boardroom tax loopholes and the shares for a right scheme to pay for

:49:55.:50:00.

all this. Martin, he is targeting what he says is the cost of living

:50:01.:50:05.

crisis, how do you oppose this announcement which is the keynote of

:50:05.:50:09.

the Labour Party conference? The Labour language on this has

:50:09.:50:11.

changed, quite apart from the fact that a couple of weeks ago, they

:50:11.:50:15.

were slapping down their spokesperson for saying they would

:50:15.:50:19.

reverse the bedroom tax. It is a hasty repositioning. It is about

:50:19.:50:23.

Labour trying to move attention away from the fact that the and there are

:50:23.:50:37.

clear signs of that recovery taking place. The language has changed from

:50:37.:50:39.

Ed Balls save the economy is flat lining. The language has changed to

:50:39.:50:42.

the cost of living. There are many answers that we have after we reduce

:50:42.:50:44.

taxes, income tax for the lowest paid... We heard those messages last

:50:44.:50:57.

week. They're giving 100,000 to millionaires. Labour are panicking

:50:57.:51:04.

on the recovery of the economy. Is it not playing a dangerous game in a

:51:04.:51:08.

sense that a lot of the polling organisations suggest that people

:51:09.:51:12.

support what the government is doing on benefits and this reinforces

:51:13.:51:13.

David Cameron's line, on benefits and this reinforces

:51:14.:51:22.

accept this parallel universe that the Liberal Democrats living, that

:51:22.:51:25.

the economy is off and running. The growth that we have is the slowest

:51:25.:51:32.

in 100 years. Let me get to the bedroom tax. It affects over 400,000

:51:32.:51:40.

disabled people in this country who actually need another bedroom. We

:51:40.:51:45.

see that there are currently 50,000 people facing evictions, what

:51:45.:51:50.

happens to them? There are currently hundreds of thousands in arrears

:51:50.:51:53.

because of the penalties that they face because they have an extra

:51:53.:51:58.

room. It is just and right that Labour says it will get rid of it

:51:58.:52:05.

and let me just say, the Liberal Democrats at the conference said

:52:05.:52:08.

look at all the brilliant things we did, they are in a collective

:52:08.:52:12.

government and have to accept responsibility for this policy and

:52:12.:52:16.

all of the other vicious approaches. It was introduced by Labour in

:52:16.:52:23.

respect to the private sector. If you want to hear what was said at

:52:23.:52:26.

the Glasgow conference, people were very concerned about the impact of

:52:26.:52:31.

the bedroom tax. I think we do need a review of the impact on the

:52:31.:52:35.

poorest people and that was a clear message from our delegates and

:52:35.:52:39.

members. I think the MPs need to start calling for that. Thank you.

:52:39.:52:56.

Nigel Farage MEP. And so, as promised, to that interview with

:52:56.:52:59.

Nigel Farage, the UKIP leader whose annual conference came just a week

:52:59.:53:02.

after the West Midlands MEP Mike Nattrass angrily resigned from the

:53:02.:53:05.

party. Having failed to get onto UKIP's list for next year's European

:53:05.:53:08.

elections, Mr Nattrass dismissed their chosen candidates as 'cronies'

:53:08.:53:11.

of Nigel Farage, of whom he had some pretty scathing things to say. How

:53:11.:53:14.

do you view being described as a totalitarian leader like Robert

:53:14.:53:18.

Mugabe? It is very complimentary to think that I have this brilliant

:53:18.:53:23.

devious political brain and eye and masterminding everything. It is

:53:23.:53:27.

balderdash. When I stood to become leader of the party, I said I was

:53:27.:53:32.

not going to do what I had done before and I would run to lead the

:53:32.:53:36.

party politically, and not to manage it or run it on a day to day basis,

:53:37.:53:42.

and I have centred myself from the candidate procedure. I have had

:53:42.:53:48.

nothing to do with it. Nevertheless, it you seem rather profligate with

:53:48.:53:52.

your MEPs in the West Midlands. Both of them have resigned, you have none

:53:52.:53:57.

in a region as important as the West Midlands. It is very important.

:53:57.:54:01.

Despite the problems, I was in Telford ten days ago and we had a

:54:01.:54:07.

massive public meeting. A political party, growing up from nothing, to

:54:07.:54:12.

where we have got today, does necessarily go through some

:54:12.:54:16.

teenagers. I think that in the West Midlands that is what we have been

:54:16.:54:20.

through. Does it not look more like a one—man band. Is that not the

:54:20.:54:24.

perception of the party? Perhaps it was. If you look at this particular

:54:24.:54:31.

conference, you see the deputy leader of the party taking a more

:54:31.:54:35.

prominent position. There are other people who will, like the man

:54:35.:54:42.

unveiling the energy policy, and we also have some female candidates in

:54:42.:54:45.

what will be very winnable position for the European elections. There is

:54:45.:54:50.

a fresh blood of talent. Mike Nattrass has been with us for years,

:54:50.:54:54.

I am sorry he has been deselected and I am surprised he did not get

:54:55.:54:59.

through the selection panel and I am sorry he is upset. It is not what I

:54:59.:55:04.

would have chosen. Nigel Farage MEP. And next week, in the last of my

:55:04.:55:07.

party leader interviews, I'll be talking to the Prime Minister David

:55:07.:55:10.

Cameron as he prepares for the Conservative Party Conference in

:55:10.:55:16.

Manchester. Are you and UKIP in an unholy alliance in marginal regions?

:55:16.:55:23.

Not at all. I honestly believe that we have problems with some of our

:55:23.:55:27.

own voters on the issue of immigration, which UKIP play up very

:55:27.:55:31.

strongly. I think they are a threat to the major parties. What I find

:55:31.:55:36.

interesting about that piece is that you have a member who left the

:55:36.:55:41.

Conservatives to go to UKIP and he is a climate change denier and he is

:55:41.:55:45.

their spokesperson. You have another member who left UKIP to go to the

:55:45.:55:49.

Conservatives. That tells you a lot about those parties and the conflict

:55:49.:55:54.

that they have for what they think are their hard—core voters. The

:55:54.:55:58.

problem for the Liberal Democrats is that UKIP are picking up the protest

:55:58.:56:05.

voters. Now you are one of the above. I have not met very many

:56:05.:56:08.

people who have gone from the Liberal Democrats to UKIP. I am

:56:08.:56:13.

talking about the general well of protest. I guess if there were

:56:13.:56:18.

people who were voting purely to protest, I am not sure they always

:56:18.:56:23.

voted Liberal Democrat, I can see that an angry party might be the

:56:23.:56:30.

place they would go. That's can be a very superficial kind of support and

:56:30.:56:34.

we have seen it with UKIP, they did very well in the last European

:56:34.:56:39.

elections and then they disappeared without trace. I think the real

:56:39.:56:44.

problem with UKIP, with their MEPs, they have the worst record of

:56:44.:56:48.

productivity in the Parliament. As someone said at our conference,

:56:48.:56:53.

U—boat, you claim your expenses, it UKIP. They are taken us towards exit

:56:53.:57:00.

from the European Union which could threaten jobs. That is the serious

:57:00.:57:06.

problem. Now, for our round—up of the political week in the Midlands

:57:06.:57:09.

in 60 seconds, brought to us today by BBC West Midlands Political

:57:09.:57:32.

Reporter Susana Mendonca. New Environment Agency rules got a

:57:32.:57:34.

frosty reception in Walsall. Hundreds of fridges have been dumped

:57:34.:57:37.

illegally because scrap yards can't take them. Hall Green MP Roger

:57:37.:57:40.

Godsiff wants the Attorney—General to review a six month sentence given

:57:40.:57:43.

to lorry driver Darren Foster. He hit and killed 13—year—old cyclist

:57:43.:57:46.

Hope Fennell. He'd been texting at the wheel. Solihull's MP will be

:57:46.:57:49.

popular with her better off constituents. She spoke against a

:57:49.:57:52.

conference motion to raise the top tax rate to 50p. It was defeated by

:57:52.:57:56.

four votes. We can raise far more through Mansion tax, closing tax

:57:56.:57:58.

loopholes and making dodging tax much harder to avoid. A year on and

:57:58.:58:02.

there's still no end in sight to the plebgate affair for Sutton Coldfield

:58:02.:58:05.

MP Andrew Mitchell. The cost so far, £150,000. And a serious case review

:58:05.:58:09.

into the death of Coventry schoolboy Daniel Pelka found his murder

:58:09.:58:12.

followed a series of missed opportunities to save him by the

:58:12.:58:26.

authorities. Never again, we say after these cases, we keep seeing

:58:26.:58:31.

dysfunctional safeguarding policies and people unable to act despite the

:58:31.:58:36.

evidence, how do we stop all this? It is a very difficult and

:58:36.:58:41.

depressing situation. We had the case of Peter Connelly and yet we

:58:41.:58:49.

keep on seeming to be here again. We need some kind of review of how we

:58:49.:58:54.

treat the profession of social work, because you have some sympathy for

:58:54.:58:57.

the social workers, they are desperately criticised but in other

:58:57.:59:02.

places they are criticised for being too heavy—handed. The evidence

:59:02.:59:07.

seemed to be there to be seen, he was malnourished, there were the

:59:07.:59:11.

injuries and time and again nothing happened. We have got to look at

:59:11.:59:15.

where we are getting it right. We have to learn from that. Issues such

:59:15.:59:20.

as this mean we can never be complacent when we are dealing with

:59:20.:59:23.

young lives and young children and we have to find a mechanism by which

:59:23.:59:28.

we can support our social workers and teachers when they decide to

:59:28.:59:32.

intervene. Currently, I believe people are terrified to intervene

:59:32.:59:37.

and we have got to remedy that. Do you think there is a cultural issue,

:59:37.:59:41.

a line which question, in an increasingly diverse society, we

:59:41.:59:46.

have to face this? It has been highlighted in previous reports, but

:59:46.:59:51.

if there is a cultural issue, we need to overcome that. If there is a

:59:51.:59:55.

cultural issue, we need to deal with our culture and respect and protect

:59:55.:00:02.

children. Next week, we will examine the case for and against the living

:00:02.:00:10.

wage as opposed to the minimum wage and Inside Out will be meeting Tina

:00:10.:00:14.

from Telford, she is a mother of six and she will be showing us how she

:00:14.:00:16.

can feed her family for £60 a week. and she will be showing us how she

:00:16.:00:20.

Blackman and Sadiq Khan, thanks very much. Leafing through the papers the

:00:20.:00:33.

Blackman and Sadiq Khan, thanks very last few days has taken me back

:00:33.:00:38.

Blackman and Sadiq Khan, thanks very my youth. The halcyon days of the

:00:38.:00:40.

2000s, when the warring Blairite and Brownite tribes fought over who

:00:40.:00:44.

Brown's chief spin doctor Damian should run the Labour Party. Gordon

:00:44.:00:46.

Brown's chief spin doctor Damian McBride - McPoison, or worse, to his

:00:46.:00:48.

enemies - has published his memoirs, timed for maximum impact in the

:00:48.:00:57.

enemies - has published his memoirs, of Labour's Conference. They detail

:00:57.:00:59.

how Mr McBride briefed against colleagues, brought down Cabinet

:00:59.:01:02.

Ministers, that is - and fought tooth and nail to promote the man he

:01:02.:01:06.

called "the greatest man he ever met" - Gordon Brown. Joining us

:01:07.:01:13.

called "the greatest man he ever is Tony Blair's former Director

:01:13.:01:14.

called "the greatest man he ever Communications, Alastair Campbell.

:01:14.:01:20.

You are angry about what he has Communications, Alastair Campbell.

:01:20.:01:28.

in this book. Why is that. It is partly the fact that he has done it

:01:28.:01:35.

in a way that will be -- will be damaging to the Labour Party at

:01:35.:01:38.

in a way that will be -- will be time. But also because of the lies

:01:38.:01:41.

that he told at the time that he now communications and trying to hold

:01:41.:01:51.

the thing together, build the team. There was also Charlie Whelan and

:01:51.:01:58.

others. And that job was made more difficult than it should have been.

:01:58.:02:03.

I used to challenge Gordon Brown about it. And there came a stage

:02:03.:02:07.

where I said if Whelan does not about it. And there came a stage

:02:07.:02:15.

I will go. And when Damian McBride was on the scene I was clear that I

:02:15.:02:20.

was not going to have anything to do with him. Because of what he is

:02:20.:02:26.

was not going to have anything to do admitting to, I think they played

:02:26.:02:29.

quite a significant part in pushing Labour out of power. Because the

:02:29.:02:35.

public were being fed by them, this public were being fed by them, this

:02:35.:02:40.

narrative, the whole time. That Blair was useless, Charles Clarke

:02:40.:02:48.

was useless. And I think that we where the government and had very

:02:48.:02:51.

good ministers trying to do big things for the country. I said this

:02:51.:02:58.

morning it was like being a foot tall team were on the pitch you

:02:58.:03:04.

morning it was like being a foot your own players kicking the star

:03:04.:03:07.

players. That is why I am angry about it because I think they helped

:03:07.:03:10.

usher in a conservative government. If we had all stuck together I think

:03:10.:03:17.

did not win the last election, that is a reasonable point. But surely

:03:17.:03:25.

undermine Tony Blair and to promote their man, Gordon Brown. It is

:03:25.:03:30.

inconceivable then that Gordon Brown did not know about it. Well in spite

:03:30.:03:39.

reasonably good relationship with Gordon Brown. I used to challenge

:03:39.:03:43.

him a lot about what Whelan was doing. He would always say, I will

:03:43.:03:51.

sort it out. Another thing that annoys me is this sense put forward

:03:51.:03:57.

by the right wing media that there was this sense of equivalence.

:03:57.:04:03.

People like Steve who I have known for years, there is not a single

:04:03.:04:10.

journalist with the very occasional exception where I lost my temper,

:04:10.:04:14.

who would honestly be able to tell you that I ever breathed against

:04:14.:04:20.

ministers. That was my golden rule. People say you were the forerunner.

:04:20.:04:28.

I know it was not the case. One People say you were the forerunner.

:04:28.:04:41.

the reasons why I do despise what they did, the whole spin thing which

:04:41.:04:53.

associated with, once I wrote a actually within the government,

:04:53.:05:03.

associated with, once I wrote a had a principle of maximum openness

:05:03.:05:03.

and trust. Anyone could come to had a principle of maximum openness

:05:03.:05:08.

morning meetings on condition that what was discussed their state as

:05:08.:05:14.

part of the team. I had to say to Gordon Brown, your people are not

:05:14.:05:16.

coming. Because I knew where it Gordon Brown, your people are not

:05:16.:05:22.

coming from. Did you know that the time but Charles Clarke and others

:05:22.:05:27.

were effectively being destroyed from within the Labour government? I

:05:27.:05:31.

certainly knew that they thought that. I did know journalists telling

:05:31.:05:39.

me that that was what was happening. Ultimately, this is why I never

:05:39.:05:51.

me that that was what was happening. leaders, it is ultimately up to

:05:51.:05:57.

me that that was what was happening. litre. Possibly in a different age

:05:57.:06:01.

Gordon Brown would have been an amazing Prime Minister. He was a

:06:01.:06:04.

great chancellor. But he had a flaw, this need for truly horrible

:06:04.:06:11.

people to be around him doing truly horrible things in politics and

:06:11.:06:14.

giving him and the Labour Party horrible things in politics and

:06:14.:06:18.

politics a bad name. That is why I'm still angry about Damian McBride.

:06:18.:06:29.

What do you make of it? The current administration is a contrast. We

:06:29.:06:32.

have rival factions occupying the same offices but they still get

:06:32.:06:39.

have rival factions occupying the The only time they have a row is

:06:39.:06:41.

when something really big happens. But with that one party in Downing

:06:41.:06:45.

Street there was fighting the whole time. Did Ed Balls know about this.

:06:45.:06:51.

I would assume so. I spoke with time. Did Ed Balls know about this.

:06:51.:07:03.

about it at the time. He told me at the time that he had spoken about it

:07:03.:07:13.

with Gordon Brown. So I think there was a concern from within that camp

:07:13.:07:18.

about some of these activities at equivalence, in life you expect

:07:18.:07:28.

about some of these activities at see that there is full on both

:07:28.:07:28.

sides. But I do not buy it in this see that there is full on both

:07:28.:07:34.

case. If you look at the testimonies see that there is full on both

:07:34.:07:37.

over the years, what you can surmise about the character of Gordon Brown

:07:37.:07:42.

and of Tony Blair, it was ultimately driven by Gordon Brown and the

:07:42.:07:48.

people around him. The Blairites did things but they did then by way

:07:48.:07:52.

people around him. The Blairites did retaliation rather than initiation.

:07:52.:07:56.

The one-time when I did lose it retaliation rather than initiation.

:07:56.:08:01.

the whole psychological force thing. That came at the end of a period

:08:01.:08:03.

when we were relentlessly being That came at the end of a period

:08:03.:08:09.

in by Charlie Whelan and his gang of journalists. I would go along to

:08:09.:08:12.

colleagues would be there and I journalists. I would go along to

:08:13.:08:20.

had to sit there and not hit back. Saying I cannot believe Gordon Brown

:08:20.:08:25.

would have anything to do with this. You get to the stage where your

:08:25.:08:29.

would have anything to do with this. credibility is on the line. Coming

:08:29.:08:29.

promotion of alcohol awareness. credibility is on the line. Coming

:08:29.:08:40.

before that the Labour Party, you never had to deal with this in

:08:40.:08:44.

opposition because you were pretty far ahead in the polls by midterm.

:08:44.:08:48.

This time that is not the case. far ahead in the polls by midterm.

:08:48.:08:57.

is surprisingly narrow. What advice would you give to Ed Miliband? To

:08:57.:09:04.

keep his head out side of this bubble but it's all about him. And

:09:04.:09:09.

to use this week to really speak to the British people about himself,

:09:09.:09:16.

particularly the kind of policy agenda he is shaping for the future.

:09:16.:09:23.

And start to heart -- start to hit the Tories hard. They're not pop,

:09:23.:09:28.

they're not competent. They're screwing up the health service.

:09:29.:09:34.

they're not competent. They're yet they are neck and neck. I would

:09:34.:09:36.

say that the whole Shadow Cabinet understand that you win elections by

:09:36.:09:43.

wanting to win elections every minute of every day. There is too

:09:43.:09:50.

much complacency. A small lead now you have to grow that. You do that

:09:50.:09:55.

with energy and conviction and policy. Tony Blair had a huge pole

:09:55.:10:04.

bead in the run-up to 1997. We were winning seat where we had not even

:10:04.:10:11.

campaigned and he was saying, why celebrate because we have not won

:10:11.:10:13.

yet. You are promoting your alcohol celebrate because we have not won

:10:13.:10:17.

yet. You are promoting your alcohol awareness campaign. Perhaps the

:10:17.:10:19.

party conference is not the best place to do that! That is one reason

:10:19.:10:28.

why I am doing that. I'm hosting probably the only alcohol free

:10:28.:10:34.

reception of the week! There is nothing worse than a convert, I

:10:34.:10:42.

reception of the week! There is that. But I travel a lot. I travel

:10:42.:10:47.

around the world and Britain has a something we should be ashamed of.

:10:47.:10:57.

Why is that, is it cultural? I think it is historical. But I dig David

:10:57.:11:04.

Cameron was right to go for minimum unit pricing and wrong to do a

:11:04.:11:17.

reversal. 6% of alcoholics get treatment. I expect that drugs are a

:11:17.:11:19.

problem but we spent £2 billion treatment. I expect that drugs are a

:11:19.:11:26.

100,000 problem drug takers and treatment. I expect that drugs are a

:11:26.:11:28.

million on 1.6 million problem have written this book about a young

:11:28.:11:41.

million on 1.6 million problem alcoholic, a teenager. And it is in

:11:41.:11:45.

the first person. People could think you are writing about yourself.

:11:45.:11:49.

did you choose a teenage girl? Well did you choose a teenage girl? Well

:11:49.:11:56.

partly, I dedicated this to the Southampton. He told me when he

:11:56.:12:06.

started his career that his patience was split nine to one, men to women

:12:06.:12:13.

and it is now 50 - 50. They're getting younger and younger. One

:12:13.:12:21.

doctor looking after me said I will take you around this hospital and

:12:21.:12:27.

the problems of alcohol are in every single ward. Not just accident and

:12:27.:12:34.

emergency. I watched the foot all, advertisements for gambling and

:12:34.:12:42.

advertising. How have we allowed this to happen, ? We are just awash

:12:42.:12:52.

with it. What we did I think on Availability and price either too

:12:52.:12:59.

means by which you can bring this down. And the country that has had

:12:59.:13:05.

the biggest success on this is Russia, bizarrely. Thank you very

:13:05.:13:17.

much for that. That's all for today. Thanks to all our guests. I'll be

:13:17.:13:23.

with live coverage of Labour Party Conference, including the speech

:13:23.:13:26.

from the man who wants to be the next Chancellor, Ed Balls. Remember

:13:26.:13:27.

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