30/10/2016 Sunday Politics West Midlands

Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

Theresa May says she wants to help people who are

"just about managing" - so should she reverse

George Osborne's cuts to benefits that are supposed to help people

Prominent London Imam Shakeel Begg is an extremist speaker,

says the High Court, after claims made on this programme.

So why is Mr Begg still being allowed to advise the Police?

Hillary Clinton fights back over the FBI's renewed investigation

into her use of a private email server - is this the boost

Donald Trump needed to reignite his chances of winning the White House?

And in the Midlands, we're laking a drama out of a crisis.

Enoch Powell's incendiary Rhvers of Blood speech

is the subject of a new plax at the Birmingham Rep.

Please take your seats in half an hour.

Now it is just a question of building that runway with the

political problems that lie ahead. And haunting the studio

on this Halloween weekend, the most terrifying political

panel in the business - Tim 'Ghost' Shipman,

'Eerie' Isabel Oakeshott and First this morning, two

new models of car to be built, securing 7,000 jobs at the car plant

in Sunderland and a further 28, 00 The news from Nissan on Thursday

was seized on by Leave campaigners as evidence that the British

economy is in rude health This morning, the Business

Secretary, Greg Clark, was asked what assurances were given

to the Japanese firm's bosses Well, it's in no-one's the interest

for there to be tariff barriers to the continent

and vice versa. So, what I said is that our

objective would be to ensure that we have continued access to the markets

in Europe and vice versa, without tariffs and without

bureaucratic impediments. That is how we will approach

those negotiations. We're joined now from Newcastle

by the Shadow Business Welcome to the programme. Labour has

been a bit sceptical about this Nissan decision. Can we begin by

making it clear just what a great achievement this is, above all for

the workers of Sunderland who have some of the highest productivity in

the world, have never been on strike for 30 years, and produce cars of

incredible quality. This is their victory, isn't it? Andrew, you are

absolutely right. The Nissan plant in Sunderland is among the most

productive in the world. The workers of Nissan are amongst the most

productive as well. And it's really a victory for them and for the trade

unions and the business organisations, and everybody who

campaigned to make sure that the government couldn't ignore their

future. It's our future. I'm the MP for Newcastle. It makes a huge

difference to the region. We are a region that still likes to make

things that work. It is a huge part of our advanced manufacturing

sector. So it's really something we welcome as well as the job security.

I'm glad we have got that on the record from the Labour shadow

business secretary. But your Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, claims

the government is ignoring manufacturers and cares only about a

small banking elite. In what way is safeguarding 30,000 industrial jobs

in the North safeguarding a financial elite? As I said, we're

really pleased that the campaigning by trade unions and the workforce,

and business organisations, meant the government felt they couldn t

ignore Nissan workers. Let's also be clear that we want that kind of job

security for all of those working in manufacturing and in other sectors

as well. And sweetheart deals for one company, no matter how important

they are, that does not an industrial strategy make. Why'd you

say it is a sweetheart deal? Greg Clark told the BBC this morning that

what was assured to Nissan is an assurance he gives to the whole

industrial sector? I was really pleased to see Greg Clark felt he

had to say something, even though it's sad that we having our

industrial strategy, you like, or our approach to Brexit delivered

piecemeal to the media rather than to the British people and Nissan,

actually. But he want published the letter. He said he has told us what

is in the letter and that reassurances given on training, on

science and on supporting the supply chain for the automated sector. You

must be in favour all -- of all of that? We are in favour of an

industrial strategy. Greg Clark unlike Sajid Javid, cannot say

industrial strategy. I'm still puzzling to find out what it is you

disagree with. Let me put the question. You said the assurances he

has given to Nissan are available to the car manufacturing sector in

general and indeed to industry in general. What is your problem with

that? Two things. Let him publish the letter so we can see that, let

him have the transparency he's pretending to offer. But also, we

need an industrial strategy that values -- that is values based and

joined. He talked about electric cars and supporting green cars. That

was in regard to Nissan. At the same time the government has slashed

support for other areas of green technology. So what is it? That is

not to do with the Nissan deal. Labour implied at some stage there

was some financial inducement, some secret bribes, that doesn't seem to

be the case. You are not claiming that any more -- any more. Then you

claimed it was a sweetheart deal for one company. That turns out not to

be the case. What criticism are you left with on this Nissan deal? I

would be really surprised if all that Nissan got was the reassurances

that Greg Clark is shared with us. He didn't answer the question of

what happens if we can't get continued tariff free access to the

single market, if we are not within the single market or the Customs

Union. Do you really think a negotiator like Nissan, who are very

good at negotiating, they would have excepted making this significant

investment without some further reassurances? Do you think there is

some kind of financial bride and if so what is the evidence? I would

like to see the letter published and I would also like to understand what

would happen... There are 27 countries which need to agree with

the deal we have from Brexit. What will Nissan, how will Nissan remain

competitive? How will the automotive industry remain competitive? Greg

Clark says he reassured them on that. But how will that be so if we

do not get access? We haven't heard anything about that. He talks about

reassurances given to Nissan. We need to make -- to know where we're

going to make sure Brexit is in the interest of all workers, not only

those who work for a Nissan and not only those who can get the attention

of Greg Clark. He assured Nissan that Britain would remain a

competitive place to do business. That was the main assurance he gave

them. He would help with skills and infrastructure and all the rest

Since you are -- intend to repeal the trade union laws that have made

strikes in Britain largely a thing of the past, and you plan to raise

corporation tax, you couldn't give Nissan the same assurance, could

you? We could absolutely give Nissan the assurance that we will be, our

vision of the future of the UK, is based on having a strong

manufacturing sector. Repealing trade union laws? As we have seen at

Nissan, the industrial sector is dependent on having highly trained,

well skilled workers. -- highly skilled, well-trained. You don't

have that by getting -- having an aggressive policy and trade union

laws or by slashing corporation tax and not supporting manufacturing

investment. Remember, the last government took away the

Manufacturing allowances which supported Manufacturing and slashed

corporation tax. That is their solution. It is a low tax, low skill

economy they want. Thank you. Sorry I had to rush you.

I'm grateful for you joining us I'm still struggling to see what is

left of Labour's criticism? Yeah, except for this. This was a valid

point she just made. What we know for sure is that Greg Clark could

say to Nissan, my aim is to get tariff free deal. There is no way he

could guarantee that. None of us know that. I don't think that was

enough. I think clearly there was a more detailed package involving

training and other things. He has acknowledged this, albeit we do not

know the precise mechanism. What I think is interesting about this is

if you reverse what happened this week, at a time when the government

says Britain is open for business and it is going to have an

industrial strategy, so far it is a bit vaguely defined. Nissan hadn't

made this commitment. Imagine what would have happened? It is an

impossible scenario. The government seems to me was obliged to make sure

this didn't happen. Let's not forget Nissan has invested hundreds of

millions in the north-east. It has been a huge success story. When I

spoke to workers from Nissan, they were so proud because they went to

Japan to teach the Japanese had to be more productive. The idea that

Nissan was just going to walk away from this given its track record,

its importance, wasn't really credible. The government had some

bargaining chips. Absolutely, of course they weren't going to walk

away. The majority of people in the area in which Nissan is braced -

based, voted for Brexit. Nissan knows it is in a powerful position

because it is an emotive sector Clearly the government didn't want

to have some big showdown. I honestly don't think this is a

smoking gun. The Labour Shadow minister really struggled to

articulate what exactly she thinks the government is hiding. I think

the reassurances were given were pretty anodyne, really. They were

anodyne and general. And what Greg Clark was setting out was an

objective and he made the right noises, and Nissan exercised its

right to sabre rattle. It does have a history of doing that. The one

thing that would now be clear given Greg Clark's performance this

morning on the BBC, is that if we were to discover some kind of

financial incentive directly linked to this investment, not more for

skills or infrastructure, that is fine, but some direct financial

investment, compensation for tariffs, which would be illegal

under World Trade Organisation rules, what you might call a

financial bride, the sect -- the business Secretary's position would

be untenable? He would be in a very difficult position indeed. Just

released the letter. There is nothing to hide. Put it out there.

The most revealing thing is that people are getting wildly excited

about the fact Greg Clark announced Britain's negotiating position would

be that we would like tariff free trade with Europe. This is regarded

as an insight into what this comment is doing and it says a great deal

about how little we have been told in Parliament and the media about

what they are up. Do you think it is exciting we are going for tariff

free trade? We're easily excited these days. We don't know. This is

where these things are at such a tentative phase. We don't know how

the rest of the European Union is going to respond to Britain's

negotiating hand. We know Britain once the best of everything, please.

It is a starting point. But that is not how it is going to end up. We

are getting wider than that. We have will have to see.

Now, Universal Credit, a single payment made to welfare

claimants that would roll together a plethora of benefits whilst

encouraging people into work by making work pay.

But have cuts to the flagship welfare scheme reduced work

incentives and hit the incomes of the least well-off?

Well, some of the government's own MPs think so, and,

as Mark Lobel reports, want the cuts reversed.

Theresa May says she wants a country that works

for everyone, that's on the side of ordinary, working people.

It means never writing off people who can work and consigning them

to a life on benefits, but giving them the chance to go out

and earn a living and to enjoy the dignity that comes

But now some in her party are worried that the low earners

will be hit by changes to Universal Credit benefit system

originally set up to encourage more people into work.

We also need to focus tax credits and Universal Credit

Concern centred on the Government's decision in the July 2015 budget

to find ?3 billion worth of savings from the Universal Credit bill.

Conservative MP Heidi Allen is working on a campaign to get MPs

in her party to urge the Prime Minister to think again.

I want her to understand for herself what the outcomes might

be if we press ahead with the Universal Credit,

Do you think Theresa May, right now, understands what you understand

To be fair, unless you really get into the detail,

and I have through my work on the Work and Pensions

Select Committee, I don't think anybody does.

Independent economic analysts at the IFS agree with Heidi Alan

that cuts to Universal Credit weaken incentives to work.

One of the key parts of the Universal Credit system

That is how much you can earn before your credit

As the Government has sought to save money,

both under the Coalition and now they Conservative Government,

both under the Coalition and now the Conservative Government,

that work allowance has been cut, time and time again.

The biggest cuts happened in the summer budget of 2015.

That basically reduces the amount of earnings you get to keep

It weakens the incentive people have to move into work.

What do changes to the Universal Credit system mean?

The Resolution Foundation think tank has crunched the numbers.

If you compare what would have happened before the July 2015 summer

budget to what will happen by 2 20, even if you take into account gains

in the National Living Wage and income tax cuts,

recipients will be hit by annual deductions.

Couples and parents would receive, on average, ?1000 less.

A dual-earning couple with two children under four,

with one partner working full-time on ?10.50 an hour and the other

working part-time on the minimum wage for around 20

hours a week, they would receive ?1800 less.

Hit most by the changes would be a single parent

with a child under four, working full-time

I think, if I'm honest, it is unrealistic, given

the economic climate, to expect everything to be reversed.

What I would like to see is an increase in the work

allowances to those people who will be hardest hit.

That is single parents and second earners hoping to return to work,

because they are the people we need to absolutely make

The Sunday Politics understands that about 15 to 20 Conservative MPs

are pushing for changes ahead of the Autumn Statement.

A former cabinet minister told us that they believed further impact

analysis should be done to find out if any mitigation measures

Former Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith, an architect

of the system, now says the cuts should be reversed.

But his former department has told us that it has no plans to revisit

the work allowance changes announced in the budget last year.

What I would say to Heidi Allen and IDS, they got it right the first

time and they should stick to the vote they cast last year

because these reforms actually do make sense.

What interests me is the fact we are trying to move people

off welfare into work, we are raising the wages people

earn by massively increasing the minimum wage and this

People are coming off welfare and into work.

Campaigners are pushing for savings to come from other areas to relieve

The other thing we have to start looking at is the triple

Financially it has been a great policy, and it was absolutely right

that we lifted pensioners who were significantly behind,

for many years, in terms of income levels, but they have

I think it is time for us to look at that policy again,

because is costing us an awful lot of money.

With just over three weeks to wait until the Conservative leadership's

new economic plan is unveiled in the Autumn Statement,

its top team is under pressure from within its own ranks to use it

And I'm joined now by former Work and Pensions Secretary,

Welcome back to the programme. Theresa May said she is on the side

of the just managing, the working poor. But they are about to be hit

from all sides. Their modest living standards are going to be squeezed

as inflation overtakes pay rises, they will be further squeezed

because top-up benefits in work are frozen. Incentives to work are going

to be reduced by the cuts in universal benefits. So much for

being on the side of those just managing? Theresa was right to focus

on this group. The definition has to be the bottom half, in economic

terms, of the social structure. It doesn't look good for them? This is

the point I am making, it is an opportunity to put some of this

right. One of the reasons I resigned in March is because I felt the

direction of travel we had been going in had been to take far too

much money out of that group of people when there are other areas

which, if you need to make some of those savings, you can. The key bit

is that the group needs to be helped through into work and encouraged to

stay in work. There was a report done with the IFS, when we were

there, at Universal Credit. It said Universal Credit rolled out, as it

should have been before the cuts, people would be much more likely to

stay in work longer and earn more money. It is a net positive, but

that is now called into question. Let's unpick some of the detail but

first, do you accept the words of David Willets? It says on the basis

of the things I read out to you that the just managing face a significant

and painful cut in real terms if we continue on the way we are going. I

do, in essence. That is the reason why I resigned. I felt Heidi raised

that issue as well, that we got the balance wrong. It is right that

pensioners get to a certain point, when they are on a level par, doing

the right thing over five years Staying with that process has cost

us ?18 billion extra this year, in total. It will go on costing another

5 billion. Then there is the issue of tax allowances. I want to remind

you and viewers what David Cameron told the Conservative conference in

2009. If you are a single mother with two children, earning ?150 a

week, the withdrawal of your benefits and the additional taxes

that you pay me on that for every extra you earn, you keep just 4p.

What kind of incentive is that? 30 years ago, this party won and

election fighting against 98% tax rates for the Rex richest. I want us

today to show even more anger about 96% tax rates for the very poorest

in our country. Real anger, and effective rate of over 90%.

Universal Credit reduces that. Some will still face, as they lose

benefits and pay tax, a marginal rate of over 75%. That is still too

high? Yes, it is the collision between those going into work at the

moment they start paying tax. A racial Universal Credit is set at

65%. You can call that the base marginal tax rate. 1.2 million will

face 75%? That is the point about why the allowances are so important.

The point about the allowances which viewers might not fully understand

is that it was set, as part of Universal Credit, to allow you to

get certain people, with certain difficulties, as they cross into

work, to retain more benefit before it is tapered away as they go up in

hours. A lone parent, who might have various issues, you want her to have

a bigger incentive than a single person that does not have the same

commitments. It is structured so that somebody who has difficulty

going to work, they all have slightly different rates. What

happened is that last year a decision was taken to reduce tax

credits, and, on the back of that, to reduce allowances. I believe

given everything that happened now, we need to restore that to the point

where it helps those people crossing over. You say a decision was taken,

it was a decision by the former Chancellor George Osborne in the

summer budget. Other decisions were taken in successive Budgets to raise

the Universal Credit budget, which resulted in the disincentive being

higher than many people wanted. Do you accept that has been the

consequence of his decisions? I was in the Government, we take

collective responsibility. I argued this was not the right way to go,

but when you are in you have to stay with it if you lose that argument.

There was another attempt before the spending review last year to

increase the taper, so the marginal rate would have gone up. I managed

to stop that. I'm Sibley saying what we made as a decision last

year, given the circumstances and given that the net effect of all of

that, I think it is time for the Government to ask the question, if

we are in this to help that group of people, Universal Credit is

singularly the most powerful tool. One of the Argentine aid in the

paper published on Thursday, we are set going on doing two more races of

the tax threshold, taking more people out of tax. That has a

diminishing effect on the bottom section. Only 25p in that tax rate

will help any of those. Most of it goes to middle income? You and I

will benefit more from that. With Universal Credit, every pound you

put into that will go to the bottom five tenths. That is why I designed

it like that. He pressed the button and immediately start to changed

circumstances. Should the cuts in Universal Credit that Mr Osborne

introduced, against your argument, should they be reversed? I believe

so. I believe you can do it even if there is concern about spending I

don't believe you need to go through with the continuing raise the tax

threshold. Cost is dependent on inflation, but give or take. It is

in the Tory manifesto? Has more than doubled. What is in the manifesto,

and Lasse Prime Minister made this clear in conference, we want to

improve the life chances of people. Today's announcement on the Green

paper is what I wrote over the last two and a half years. Big changes

necessary to how we deal with sickness benefit. That can now be

done because of Universal Credit, because people can go back to work

and it tapers away their benefits. It is the most powerful tool to sort

our people that live in poverty Universal Credit. We need to make

sure it lands positively. If Mr Osborne's cuts were reversed, what

you and some of your backbench Tory colleagues want to do, how would

that improve the incentives of the working poor, as they try to get on

in life? They have to pay more tax, they lose some benefits. How would

it improve it? Would many still face a 75% rate? The key question is

first and foremost, as people move through income to the point where

they are getting taxed, that group will be enormously benefited by the

re-emergence of these allowances at the right level. That is what the

IFS have said, that is what the Resolution Foundation are saying,

and the Centre For Social Justice is saying. You have to get that group,

because they are most likely to be drifting into poverty and less

incomes are right. Would it help those who face a 75% margin? We

don't face that. Exactly right. People much poorer than us do. I

would love to get the marginal rate down to testify percent, and lower,.

-- down to 65%. It is a balance of how you spend the money. I would

prefer to do that rather than necessarily go ahead with threshold

razors. I think the coronation of the marginal reduction of 65%,

getting it down to 60%, plus more allowances, will allow Universal

Credit to get to the group that is going to be, and the report written

by the IFS and ourselves, it shows it is going to be the most dynamic

and direct ability of a Government to be able to influence the way that

people improve their incomes in the bottom five deciles. Would you take

on extra work if you knew you were going to lose 75% of it? Even 6 %?

This has been my argument all along. Universal Credit can help that

enormously. One point that goes missing, 70% of the bottom five

deciles will be on Universal Credit. Whatever change you make to

Universal Credit has a dramatic and immediate effect I am arguing,

genuinely, it is time to rethink this. The Prime Minister wants to

make this a priority. I am completely with her on this. I think

she made a really good start. To deliver this, we need to... You have

a lot of work to do to deliver it. Because it is a manifesto

commitment, or because they want to do it, stopping increasing the

personal allowances are not acceptable, what about bringing to

an end, by the end of the parliament, the pension triple lock

that pensioners enjoy to improve and put more money to the working poor?

What about that? Well, you are absolutely right that there is now

the danger, I think, of a mess balance between the generations

Quite rightly at the beginning, when we came in, we have a commitment as

a Conservative Party in a manifesto to get pensions back onto earnings.

It was moved to a triple lock that guaranteed a minimum. What about

ending up now? I understand it is a promise through the Parliament, but

after 2020? I am in favour of getting it back to innings and

allowing it to rise at reasonable levels. Moving from earnings to the

triple lock has cost ?18 billion this year. Here was a high, under

pressure, as the Government was scratching around to pay more money

out of working age areas, when the budget was almost out of control on

the pension side. I'm in favour of helping pensioners, but now they are

up to a reasonable level, at a steady rate, that can be afforded by

Government, which takes the pressure off, working age people have to pay

for that. In years to come, time to end the triple lock

and use the savings to help these people we have been talking about?

As part of a load of packages, yes. It would also help with the

intergenerational fairness argument. Thank you for being with us.

Now, a prominent London Imam called Shakeel Begg -

who is Chief Imam the Lewisham Islamic Centre - is an extremist.

That was the verdict of the judge in a libel action that Mr Begg took

against the BBC, after we described him as an Islamic extremist

Mr Begg had complained about a short segment in an interview in November

2013 with Farooq Murad, the then head of the Muslim Council

of Britain, an organisation which claims to represent British

In that interview, we described Mr Begg as an extremist speaker

who had hailed jihad is the greatest of deeds.

From his base of the Lewisham Islamic Centre, Mr Begg has been

involved in a number of community organisations, including

the Police Independent Advisory Group in Lewisham,

Lewisham Council's Advisory Council on Religious Education

and as a volunteer chaplain at Lewisham Hospital.

But in his judgment, Mr Justice Haddon-Cave called

Mr Begg a Jekyll and Hyde character - a trusted figure in his local

community, but when talking to predominantly Muslim audiences

he shed the cloak of respectability and revealed the horns of extremism.

The judge cited one speech made by Mr Begg at a rally

outside Belmarsh Prisonm- the high security prison that houses

terrorists - as particularly sinister.

The judge said the imam was expressing admiration and praise

Following Friday's judgment, the hospital trust have told us that

Mr Begg's status as a voluntary chaplain has been terminated.

We have been told by Lewisham Council he is no longer

on their Religious Education Committee.

The Metropolitan Police have confirmed that

Mr Begg remains a member of their Independent Advisory Group

in Lewisham, as well as the borough's faith group.

I am joined by Haras Rafiq, chief executive of the Quilliam

Foundation. Welcome to the programme. I have here in my hand a

statement from the trustees of the Lewisham Islamic Centre. They reject

the judge's ruling as fanciful and say they are unequivocal and

unwavering in their support of Shakeel Begg as their head imam

What do you make of that? To be honest, it doesn't surprise me. At

the end of the day he is only the imam of that mosque because he

belongs to the same theological fundamentalist views that the mosque

would portray. If they were to say he was an extremist, they would be

saying in fact that they have allowed extremist preaching and

extremist theology within their walls. I think this is a very

important decision and a very important judgment by the judge

First of all, these people like to operate in a linear, under a veneer

of respectability. When that veneer is taken away, there are a number of

things that can happen. First of all, the BBC did very well to stand

by their guns and say, we're not going to be intimidated by somebody

who is threatening to taking -- to take us to court for potential

libel. Many other media companies have done that in the past and

people have capitulated. Also, this has exposed him. Legally now, here's

some deal can be classified as an extremist preacher, somebody who

promotes religious violence. I think the mosque really needs to take a

step back and say, how we part of the problem that we are facing

within society? Or are we going to be part of the solution? It really

concerns me. The High Court judge says that Mr Begg's speeches were

consistent with an extremist Salafist is the most worldview. What

is Salafist is and how widespread is it in UK mosques? -- mosque. It

comes from the Middle East. It is from Saudi Arabia. The enemy for

them was the old colonial Ottoman Empire. There is the quiet Salafist

to get some with their lives, lives outside society. There is a

revolutionary who tries to convert other people to their worldview And

then there is the Salafist jihad ease. People like Islamic State etc.

We have seen of increased in recent decades because of money that has,

growing from the Middle East. When that is mixed with a political

ideology, it becomes potent. Do we have a political -- particular

problem in Britain with this in our mosques? Absolutely. Without the

theology that says hate the other, hate other Muslims, that

excommunicate other people, that says it is OK to fight and is good

to fight when you have got an enemy, we wouldn't really have a jihadi

problem. Really that is something we have to tackle. The number of

mosques and institutions supporting Salafist and Islam is has been on

the increase. Do we have a problem with what the judge called Jekyll

and Hyde characters who hide their extremism except when they are

speaking to specific groups? Absolutely. One of the things we

have focused on in the past, a number of hate preachers now in

prison, people like Anjem Choudary, and everybody focused on them. But

there is a range of people operating under that level. People who will

show one face to the community because they actually need that for

a respectability. They need that for a legitimacy. They need that to

operate. When they are behind closed doors and talking to their

constitution, that is when you will see the real face of what these

people believe. It is an increasing phenomenon. We are seeing it more.

And we're going to carry on seeing it. Not just has the Lewisham mosque

stuck by him, but given the clarity of the judge's ruling, are you

surprised that the Metropolitan police would wish to continue with

Mr Begg as an adviser? I'm absolutely shocked that that

decision. What Uzzy going to do Advise them on how to deal with

extremist preachers and promote religiously motivated violence? I

don't know what he's going to advise them on. Because we now have a judge

that has ruled against him and actually classified him as an

extremist and somebody who promotes religious violence, we actually have

a possibility for the CPS to actually prosecute him. There is a

law that has been in place since 2005 called religiously motivated

violence. If he has been classified as somebody who promotes this, there

is a potential for the CPS to prosecute. I want to called into

question other organisations, interfaith organisations, other

Muslims groups, who say they want to fight extremism, I call on them to

say, this guy is an extremist preacher, we should cut our ties

from him. This was a very high risk strategy by the BBC. The exposure

could have been over ?1.5 million of licence payers money. Will this make

it more difficult for Jekyll and Hyde characters to behave as Mr Begg

has behaved? Absolutely. It will do. One of the things they will now have

to make sure is that they are a lot more careful. Careful with what they

say to their own constituency. It won't solve the theological problem.

But it will actually stop other people from operating in this manner

and allow other media organisations to have the confidence to expose

them when they do. Haras Rafiq, thank you for joining us.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics for the Midlands.

We're making a drama out of a crisis this week.

Enoch Powell's Rivers of

Blood speech was one of the dynamite moments in 20th-century polhtics.

So what exactly is the legacy of

the then Right Honourable mdmber for Wolverhampton South West?

Adrian Bailey is also a Black Country MP.

He is the Labour member for West Bromwich West

and Nadhim Zahawi is the Conservative MP

He is himself an immigrant, having been born in Iraq.

And we will also be reflecting on what that

government decision on airport policy will mean,

We begin with a howl of angtish from Labour's candidate

Andy Burnham complains that the government is now

more concerned about the Midlands Engine than the Northern Powerhouse.

For so long, the boat was on the other foot.

Mr Burnham won't have enjoydd Prime Minister's Questions

Halesowen MP James Morris invited Theresa May to

big up our part of the country, and so she did.

My honourable friend speaks up well for the Black Country,

and I'm pleased to echo his comments about economic growth

Since 2010 we've seen over 220, 00 more jobs in the region,

55,000 more new businesses, in the region,

but he's right, the devoluthon deal is important.

It is the biggest devolution deal that's being done.

She says the West Midlands has the biggest devolution deal of all.

Well, we are grateful to the Birmingham Mail for flagging up

figures that question just how well that claim stands up to scrttiny.

According to the National Audit Office, our deal

is worth ?36.5 million for each of the next 30 years.

That is indeed more than anywhere else gets.

But, per head, it works out at just ?13 each.

That's less than Liverpool, which will get more than ?20 a head,

Sheffield, which will get ?22 per head, and

covers the Bristol and Bath areas, which receives ?27 per head.

Andy Burnham will be thrilled to know

Manchester does even worse than we do, at ?11 per head.

But, Nadhim, how can it be right for someone

living in Bath, one of the most prosperous

places in the country, to

get less than half as good a deal as someone in

Well, I think we can trade figures here...

But let's not forget, ?36.5 million over the next 30 years is

also the number plus an addhtional ?8 billion of investment,

There's lots and lots of infrastructure

investment to come on top of that number,

which I think gives us a pretty strong deal.

I should say that the West of England gets twice

as good a deal per head as the West Midlands and

that looks like a sort of rdrunning of the imbalance in the

way that local authorities `re funded, between the Tory Windsors

and Wokinghams we keep hearhng about, and Wolverhampton and

I don't think they are getthng ?8 billion worth of

So the ?13 per head, the ?36.5 million, per year

for the next 30 years, on top of that number is an additional

?8 billion of investment here to deliver the infrastructure

Nadhim makes a point that it is worth a lot of

money in practice, and it is actually the biggest devolution deal

Yes, well, you can bandy the figures around.

I do think it's disappointing that it is less than

other far more affluent are`s, and it's true that we will be

receiving other investment, but if you actually

look in other regions, there are comparable

schemes, particularly in the North of England.

So I would want to see that the Midlands Metro Mayor

and the combined authorities working together to demonstrate what

contribution West Midlands lakes to the national economy,

going to the Minister and s`ying, look, we are a thriving,

building area, and we need more support.

I think we need a real business led government

When Chris Grayling sets out the government's vision of ` third

Heathrow runway, Birmingham Airport didn't even

rate a mention on Wednesday. Why should it?

This was all about airports in south-east Engl`nd.

Except that the prospect of Birmingham becoming Britain's first

High Speed Rail connected ahrport had raised expectations that it

too, could expect a slice of the action.

Some MPs questioned the government's commitment

You can fly nonstop from Birmingham

to 140 destinations worldwide, but not Heathrow.

Unlike airports further north, whose London feeder flights

are a significant chunk of their business, here,

it's harder to justify prechous slots into Britain's

global hub, even up against today's train services,

Sir Howard Davies, chairman of the Independent Airports

Commission, thanks Birmingh`m's HS2 connections makes it a bettdr bet

even than Gatwick for future expansion.

That had Birmingham's counchl leader John Clancy on social media

predicting a supersonic boost for the local economy.

Birmingham Airport is a really important

economic institution in this city and this region.

Meanwhile, the Transport Secretary was

Why can we not still be talking about the expansion of

No doubt others will have their views

about further expansion of regional airports.

But, for now, Chris Grayling said his focus was on London.

Labour questioned the government commitment to regions like ours

What message does that send to Stansted, Manchester,

Birmingham and East Midlands about the government's commitment to

the so-called Northern Powerhouse or the Midlands Engine?

But environmental campaigners say the less airport

What I think we should be doing is building

a home-grown economy based on areas we know will grow, like low carbon

manufacturing, for example, and that way we can build a more reshlient

economy that there that's ldss reliant on overseas money, on

airport expansion, and can provide more secure jobs now, and for years

London's airports are full tp, and the new airports are unlikely

Ample time, say Birmingham @irport bosses to persuade more airlines

and their passengers to vote with their feet.

We've just seen Birmingham's Labour Leader John Clancy there,

venturing out into the wilds of social media,

but he's now back in the warm embrace

of classic BBC One here with us today.

You were very excited in th`t clip, John,

Because Birmingham Airport, the airport that

you were bigging up, didn't even merit a mention by Chris Gr`yling.

It didn't, and obviously I would have liked some kind of

I understand that it was a Heathrow- Gatwick thing that needed to be

dealt with inside the party in a particular way this wedk.

I think, as time goes on, it will be

inevitable that Birmingham will start to be mentioned.

So what indeed is your vision for Birmingham

Airport, long-term, and the economic value which

I think Birmingham Airport can actually bring a supersonic

I think, actually, if you don't have

a thriving airport in an ambitious, growing city, it actually holds

And I think by the time we get to the mid-2020s Birmingham,

if it doesn't expand, it will be at capacity.

Actually, once we get HS2 hdre, it's a competitive airport

I have to say, you will be 38 minutes from London

Euston to Birmingham International Airport.

I think that means that people and freight will start

to look at Birmingham as the inevitable.

Which is why Beverly Neilson, the Liberal Democrat

mayoral candidate, talked about the idea of

a second runway the Birmingham because of the HS2 connection.

I think is important that we now put our plans

together, independently, if you like, economic

self-determination as an ambitious area and how we start

Down the line, a second runway, I think would

any railway line, it actually goes in both directions, doesn't it?

And a high-speed line with a spur to Heathrow,

plenty of Midlanders could

go the other way, actually,

and doesn't that create the question of

whether, long-term, Birmingham needs to be a major airport rather less

than it does now, if Heathrow becomes so much closer on

I think it will more be the other way around.

I think it is more likely that people

That's the rebalancing of both freight and

tourist passengers, I think, which is going to be inevit`ble

You're bringing two great transport things together.

It will be good for the economy it will help the economy

grow inclusively, it brings jobs, even brings homes.

You have heard, Nadhim, John talking very ambitiously there and

yet, Chris Grayling early rdlease all regional airports in terms of

feeder flights to London whhch, as we have seen in a report,

it's a market in which Birmhngham doesn't exist at all.

So it's a very bleak future he is setting out,

All that's unfair, because Chris was,

as John quite rightly recognised, announcing the Heathrow

versus Gatwick and he was rhght to focus on that.

It's a big deal for those parliamentarians who

But more importantly, Birmingham Shakespeare Airport

as it is described on this Chief Executive's business card

and in China, is going to have a huge opportunity.

John referred to it, HS2, half an hour from

London to Birmingham Airport versus, and wait for this one,

Liverpool Street to Stansted, 45 minutes.

It will make us so much mord competitive which is why

I think a supersonic boost is something I can easily agree

How do you see the balance between the business case

and environmental case, which we have heard the Gredn Party

Can I say that I think Chris Grayling

let the cat out of the bag, that they have been

The fact is the government has missed an opportunity to underline

And Birmingham Airport, outlined in the

Davies Report has a great future with a booming

manufacturing economy here

and the opening of our conndctions to the Middle East and the Far East

as well, the balance of environment and business,

that is a dilemma that all airports face.

And the advantage for Birmingham over, say, Heathrow

is the fact that, locally, Birmingham Airport is something like

48% owned by the local authorities, and there are very good procedures

to enable communication, consultation and transparency that

will overcome some of the public opposition to it.

Northern connections as well, presumably, as

part of the equation for Birmingham, for people of North of this city

Absolutely, but the important point here is,

as the Davies Report says, Birmingham is a great opportunity,

but when it reaches capacitx we can begin to

look at a second runway. But it's a huge opportunity for us.

Cross-Party, without trying to play politics with it.

Over to you, John party. Is it going to happen?

Because people were concerndd that it had been kicked

into the long grass, like so much else.

No, in fact, it's up to the people of the West Midlands

We won't wait for permission, we will make it happen.

It is remembered as the Rivdrs of Blood speech and, although, Enoch

Powell himself never used those words but his

Britain was on the brink of race riots and social catastrophd.

Now, after the Brexit referdndum, where immigration loomed large

once again, the arguments aroused have a new resonance.

Our political reporter Rob Leyer explains how the

city where Mr Powell delivered it has made a drama out of a crisis.

It's 1968 and Enoch Powell hs about to change the debate

It is like watching a nation busily engaged in heaping

Almost 50 years since the Rivers of Blood speech

divided the country, it is being replayed on stage

in Chris Hannan's play, What Shadows.

What does the man playing Enoch Powell

think the the former Wolverhampton South West MP would make

I'm sure he is looking down with bemusement.

He will be absolutely thrilled by Brexit because he was

completely opposed to the common market as it was, then,

He would also feel that his predictions, which people fdlt

were exaggerated and dire, were becoming closer to reality

Rebecca takes the role of an Oxford academic and immigrant's

daughter, Rose Cruickshank, whose childhood was shatterdd by

He says that as well as being divisive, it shut down debate. In

his speech there are things you can kind of understand but therd was

some very hateful rhetoric `nd the words he used were disgusting and

parts. When he was cast out that the conversation around race and culture

stopped. And because any qudstioning of Britain's multicultural hdentity

was seen as racist, because often it was framed in a very racist way

Powell was inundated with stpport of letters, and marches organised by

those in favour of his views. But the speech cost Enoch Powell his job

any Conservative Shadow Cabhnet It also brought an end to a long-term

friendship with the editor of the friendship with the editor of the

local newspaper, Clem Jones. Senior and a family picnic two years before

the speech, he had advised Powell on how to maximise media cover`ge.

Years later, looking through the archives, his son, Nick, a former

BBC correspondent, said he had lived to regret that advice. They were

looking after Powell's two daughters and reading the speech becatse by

then my father had got the full text and my mother was shocked. Ly father

was shocked. In my mother 's words, Enoch Powell had "Crossed the line".

The speech was made on a Saturday afternoon and my father knew that on

Monday the express and Star would love to say something about the

speech. And for the first thme he's talking about the damage th`t the

speech could cause, the extravagant speech could cause, the extravagant

language that Enoch Powell was using. Most of these letters are in

support of Enoch Powell. 95$ of the letters the paper got were hn

support of Enoch Powell. Sole say that Ukip are the heirs of Dnoch

Powell's speech. At this Birmingham hotel one MEP made national

headlines by quoting last ydar, and he says that it's still difficult to

talk openly about immigration. I used one small piece from hhs speech

and said he was wrong in general about it, but in terms of that one

segment he had a point. And I was in the national news. It is ridiculous.

We have got to learn to be `ble to door properly without any of this

hysteria. It seems like we light still be talking about that speech

in another 50 years. And Wh`t Shadows will be running at the

Birmingham repertory Theatrd until the 12th of November. As a black

Country MP, how do you assess the legacy of that speech by Enoch

Powell, given that the lesson of this Brexit referendum is that

immigration is an issue, a very live issue, on the doorstep in your part

of the country? I lived verx near the Black Country when he m`de that

speech and I remember the local reaction, the demonstrations and

strikes and violence that took place not just in Wolverhampton btt in

failed in one of the primarx duties failed in one of the primarx duties

of a politician. As elected representatives are job shotld be to

try and make life better for people. He failed in that, because he made a

whole lot of people that he, as Health Minister, had recruited to

this country, insecure and subject to violent behaviour. I think it was

appalling. Everything you s`id has appalling. Everything you s`id has

subsequently been proved wrong. My doctor is ethnic minority. Some of

the most thriving businesses in my constituency are ethnic minorities.

Some might say that the Handsworth riots and the inner-city riots of

2011, that there is an elemdnt of truth in what Enoch Powell said

There has been some social discontent in some areas at some

times. They were very much ` feature of the deprivation of that `rea and

a protest against it, rather than a race based protest. The actor in

that report said that the effect of the Enoch Powell speech was to close

down discussion on immigrathon. It became a taboo subject for lany

really has changed permanently now? really has changed permanently now?

I think she had a point in the sense that what you don't want is a

situation word you cannot actually talk about immigration and `bout

British values, like immigr`nts like my family came here, I was ` year

old when speech was made but I did not come to the UK for another nine

years. I was born in Baghdad, my name is Nadhim Zahawi. My

constituency is 93% affluent white constituents, and they voted for

Nadhim Zahawi. That is why this country is so good. I do believe

that we are in any way racist and we don't welcome people. And I don t

think there's a link between that and the Brexit vote. I think it is

insulting for it to be challenged in that way. During the referendum you

supported the league campaign, which is being widely seen as licdnsing a

kind of xenophobia. I don't believe that is true. We are having denial

language, maybe not from yot, was language, maybe not from yot, was

intemperate about immigration in this country, and some people took

that as providing a rationale for them to behave in an anti-social

way. There's a difference bdtween having an open or chaotic

immigration policy which we have for 13 years of labour, and not being

straight with the British pdople about what happened when thd

European access and states came in. That is a policy that your

government had. We can debate those things but I don't think thhs

country is in any way racist. One of the great thing that the Caleron

government introduced is thd teaching of British values `t

school. They teach them how to integrate these different countries

into the UK now. I want to lake it quite clear, Labour did not have an

open immigration policy. We could go on, but we are going to havd to

leave this one there. For the moment, thank you. Let's catch up

with the rest of the political developments making the news in the

last week. The 62nd round up is brought to you by any call. West

Midlands MEP Bill Etheridge has pulled out of the race to bdcome

Ukip leader and given his b`cking to Paul Noble. Louise Allen is calling

child hostages and bring in her child hostages and bring in her

constituents of the debate was held in Parliament and consuming problems

of getting legal aid to the families of victims ahead of the inqtest into

the 21 victims of the Birmingham pub bombings. They are just ordhnary,

working-class people, who are fighting injustice in the f`ce of

powerful actors. Local MP D`lla Riva has called on the cover to support

local councils after it emerged that Walsall Art Gallery is being

threatened with closure bec`use of budget cuts. And 40 tenant farmers

are being evicted by Herefordshire Council so that the land can be

sold. The authority needs the money to fund the growing care bill for

elderly and vulnerable people. Put all that together and the threatened

eviction of those farmers, the cost of caring for the elderly, bed

blocking, the threat, maybe to the blocking, the threat, maybe to the

art gallery and Walsall, thd austerity cuts, you feel soletimes

as though they are whipping is into a perfect storm. My underst`nding of

the situation in Hereford is that there was a backlog of costs of ?2.7

million to effectively bring those farms up-to-date. 23 out of the 40

tenant farmers will not feel any change. Anyone who is in a lifetime

retirement farm will not fedl any change. But this is about what local

government is about, about delivering services. This

demonstrates the sheer stuphdity of some of the funding cost local

authorities have had to facd. This will result in more problems rather

than fewer problems and is ` direct result of government policy. My

thanks to Adrian Bailey and Nadhim Zahawi. Finally, Alex Cooke, the

Conservative MP for Cheltenham will be opening the debate at Westminster

next Wednesday about the impact of social media on the mental health of

young people. And on this programme next week, we will be joined by the

Conservative candidate for Lidlands Metro Mayor, Andy Street, who will

be giving his first TV interview after standing down as managing

director of Barely more than a week

now until polling day, and a new revelation rocks the US

Presidential election campaign. If it wasn't bizarre enough, it just

got more bizarre. The FBI have reopened their

investigation into Hillary Clinton's use of private email servers

whilst she was Secretary of State, after the discovery

of further emails. Though not on her laptop or even the

State Department. Donald Trump is saying that it's

bigger than Watergate - so could it swing the election

in his favour? We spoke to top US

pollster, Frank Luntz. The FBI investigation is happening

so late in the election process that it would be very difficult

to derail a Clinton victory. That said, if there is one thing

that could keep Hillary Clinton from the presidency,

it's an FBI investigation. But there's still only four states

that really matter, Florida, Ohio, Right now, Clinton has

beyond the margin of error leads This would have to have a truly

significant impact for the election There is a point about a week ago

when I was prepared to say that Clinton had a 95% chance

of winning this election. Based on what has happened

in the last 48 hours, It is still very likely,

but I wouldn't bet on it. I thought the 2000 election would be

the best election of my lifetime, And then I thought 2008 would be

amazing, because we had two challenger candidates and the first

African-American President. It is ugly, it's painful,

it is as negative as anything The public is angry,

the country, overall, is frustrated. But for entertainment value,

these candidates probably should have charged us money,

because it's better than any movie at ever seen, it's

better than any TV show. That was Frank Luntz. He may be

right or wrong about Mrs Clinton still having an 80% chance of

winning. I would bet on an 80% chance? Yes, absolutely. I spoke to

a high-profile American pollster and strategist last night and he took a

rather different view to Frank Luntz. He thought, and I think some

other high-profile commentators agree, that this is actually much

more serious than some people realise. There are an awful lot of

undecided voters out there looking for an excuse to vote Trump. They do

not like what they see in either candidate. But because this FBI

probe is not going to conclude before the election, the question,

the doubt over Hillary Clinton, gives them an excuse to back Trump.

The thing that will play on the minds of the voters is, could the

100 day honeymoon turning to the 100 day divorce? Which even be

impeached? It may give some people an excuse not to vote for Mrs

Clinton. It could provide a problem in terms of energising her base The

battle ground almost matters more than the polls. Florida and

Pennsylvania have been trending to Mrs Clinton. Mr Trump needs to win

both. He does not get in without both. He needs both. Just coming up

in the latest BBC News, the Washington Post tracking poll, Mrs

Clinton is now only one point ahead in the national poll. One point

Even given my caveat that the state battles are most important. That is

incredibly close? It is. Polls yesterday showed Trump nationally

closing of. -- up. There is a clear trend and movement. This has

reinforced everything that people who have a problem with Hillary

Clinton know about Hillary Clinton. Trump is running this insurgent

campaign. We have seen at here with Brexit. If you are running an

insurgent campaign, you want to be against the ultimate establishment

insider and that is what Hillary Clinton is. I suggested it was

bizarre. Fathoming the behaviour of the FBI is interesting as well. This

is a separate investigation into a former congressman, Anthony Wiener,

who had done all sorts of things. He seemed to be sex text thing a minor.

A 15-year-old girl. The FBI investigate. They get his laptop to

see what else he has been too. In the course of that, his wife, now

separated, the closest adviser to Hillary Clinton, they find on the

laptop e-mails involving the Clinton server to her. And yet the FBI

cannot, it needs now a separate warrant to access these e-mails It

hasn't got that yet. It has got a warrant to do the congressman

e-mails. On the basis of not knowing the content, this has happened.

Yeah. Who knows? He is a Republican, this guy. Earlier this year he was

being praised to the hilt by Democrats. Absolutely. The timing is

a nightmare for her. You described the whole sequence. There is nothing

definitive to doubt in this sequence. All he is saying is he has

discovered more e-mails in effect. They are from the congressman's

former wife. On Anthony Wiener's laptop, which apparently she used

sometimes. But what that shows is that for all the scrutiny of modern

politicians, they cannot escape caricature. And as Tim was just

saying, her weakness is perceived to be secretive, elitism and

complacency about that elitism. And so just the announcement of a

reopening of the investigation so fuels that caricature, you have just

revealed a poll giving her a 1% lead. That must be related to what

has happened. It is without a shred of evidence that she has done

anything wrong. You can see how because people only see things

encourage kids, that is deadly serious. -- in caricature. An

American friend of mine said we have got our October surprise but we

don't know what it is. The FBI must surely come under massive pressure.

It did its -- it did this against the Justice Department. The

difficulty the FBI had was that this information, for what it's worth, it

came to them. Were they not to have said something and it worked to have

come out later, they would have been accused of a massive cover-up. They

are dammed if they do, dammed if they don't. There is still time for

another surprise. And early November surprise. Who knows if there might

still be something that comes out on Donald Trump? This is the first

election where I can remember we have had two October surprises

already. There are is stuff about tapes knocking around about Donald

Trump saying racist things. The Clintons have got a lot of friends.

It would be a big surprise if we did not see anything else in the next

few days. Just when you think it could not get

more interesting, it has. There has been plenty in the papers lately

about the Ukip leadership saying unpleasant things about each other.

But what about Mr Farage himself? What's he up to?

Well, on BBC Two tonight we may find out the answer.

Well, I'm led to believe she's very experienced.

But I don't think Strictly Come Dancing is for me.

That is, unless, of course, you fancy popping a cheeky zero

No, I don't think Strictly Come Dancing is for me.

Well, you tell Mr Balls he has just lost your programme one viewer.

I might have nothing to do these days but, realistically,

Well, that wasn't Nigel Farage. It is a BBC comedy on tonight. Nigel

Farage gets his life back. A number of runners and riders. Let's come

straight down to it. Who would be the next leader of Ukip? Probably

Paul Nuttall. He is the favourite. The one who has the backing, not

very enthusiastic backing, is Rahim Cassandra. And also Aaron Banks a

big donor. The best of a rather weak lot. I think Paul Nuttall should

squeak through. I interviewed all three of them this week. Mr

Cassandra is a lively character and he knows how to make a few

headlines. With a bit of money behind him, anything is possible.

This is a guy who has been to the States, who has literally studied

what Trump has done. Pees on secondment for the time being. The

guy who is his line manager is one of Donald Trump's campaign stop He

is extraordinarily right-wing. I am told he kept a picture of Enoch

Powell by his bed. Barry Goldwater is one of his heroes, for example.

There are other candidates. I would suggest, put out as a hypothesis,

Paul Nuttall is Labour's worst nightmare. They are more vulnerable

in the North. Paul Nuttall is from Merseyside, a working-class

background, performs well on television. He is a really good

interviewee. He is one of the best around in politics at the moment.

However, I think whoever gets it has a massive task. The clip of this

Nigel Farage satire partly shows why. His dominance was overwhelming.

He, in many ways, did a brilliant job at keeping the show on the road.

The trouble for all new political parties is keeping it going is

tough. A very different party, the SDP, with all those glamorous

figures in it, lasted eight years, something like that. I think they

are in real trouble at the moment because of the implosion we have

been seeing in front of our eyes and the ideal -- ideological splits

Whoever gets it will face a tough tussle. All three of the main

contenders want to put Nigel Farage in the House of Lords. They were

falling over themselves to soak up two farads. That is how you win this

election. Mr Aaron Banks, who is he putting

his money on? He said he supports Rahim. I know Mr Banks is utterly

fed with the shenanigans in Ukip. He thinks it is terribly disorganised,

dysfunctional and doesn't want a great deal to do with it for the

foreseeable future. It is not quite Trump the Clinton

but it is interesting. That is it. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow.

And all of next week. Jo Coburn will be your next Sunday because I am off

to the United States to begin to rehearse presenting the BBC's US

election night coverage on the th of November. It will be here on BBC

One, BBC world, BBC News Channel and BBC

online. Remember if it's Sunday,

it's the Sunday Politics. A stone stained with blood

and beset with a curse. The Moonstone is of

inestimable value in India. Its appointed guardians would move

heaven and earth to reclaim it Let us not let the past haunt

all of our actions. You've got to do something!

It's only you that can! He's a scientist,

brilliant apparently.