Browse content similar to 29/10/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Morning, everyone. | 0:00:36 | 0:00:38 | |
I'm Sarah Smith, and welcome
to The Sunday Politics, | 0:00:38 | 0:00:40 | |
where we always bring you everything
you need to know to understand | 0:00:40 | 0:00:43 | |
what's going on in politics. | 0:00:43 | 0:00:45 | |
Coming up on today's programme... | 0:00:45 | 0:00:49 | |
The Government says | 0:00:49 | 0:00:51 | |
the international trade minister
Mark Garnier will be investigated | 0:00:51 | 0:00:53 | |
following newspaper allegations
of inappropriate behaviour | 0:00:53 | 0:00:56 | |
towards a female staff member. | 0:00:56 | 0:00:57 | |
We'll have the latest. | 0:00:57 | 0:01:03 | |
The Prime Minister says she can
agree a deal with the EU and plenty | 0:01:03 | 0:01:07 | |
of time for Parliament to vote on it
before we leave in 2018. Well | 0:01:07 | 0:01:13 | |
Parliament play ball? New evidence
cast out on the economic | 0:01:13 | 0:01:23 | |
And
cast out on the economic | 0:01:23 | 0:01:23 | |
And in
cast out on the economic | 0:01:23 | 0:01:24 | |
And in the
cast out on the economic | 0:01:24 | 0:01:24 | |
And in the Midlands...
cast out on the economic | 0:01:24 | 0:01:24 | |
And in the Midlands... We
cast out on the economic | 0:01:24 | 0:01:24 | |
And in the Midlands... We will
cast out on the economic | 0:01:24 | 0:01:25 | |
And in the Midlands... We will have
cast out on the economic | 0:01:25 | 0:01:25 | |
And in the Midlands... We will have
the results of our own Brexit | 0:01:25 | 0:01:26 | |
survey. Positive or negative? | 0:01:26 | 0:01:29 | |
on from the abortion act white MPs
are lobbying the Home Secretary to | 0:01:29 | 0:01:31 | |
stop the alleged harassment of women
attending abortion clinics. | 0:01:31 | 0:01:37 | |
All that coming up in the programme. | 0:01:37 | 0:01:40 | |
And with me today to help make sense
of all the big stories, | 0:01:40 | 0:01:43 | |
Julia Hartley-Brewer,
Steve Richards and Anne McElvoy. | 0:01:43 | 0:01:47 | |
Some breaking news this morning. | 0:01:47 | 0:01:49 | |
The Government has announced
that it will investigate | 0:01:49 | 0:01:51 | |
whether the International Trade
Minister Mark Garnier broke | 0:01:51 | 0:01:53 | |
the Ministerial Code
following allegations | 0:01:53 | 0:01:54 | |
of inappropriate behaviour. | 0:01:54 | 0:02:00 | |
It comes after reports in the Mail
on Sunday which has spoken to one | 0:02:00 | 0:02:03 | |
of Mr Garnier's former employees. | 0:02:03 | 0:02:04 | |
News of the investigation
was announced by the Health | 0:02:04 | 0:02:07 | |
Secretary Jeremy Hunt
on the Andrew Marr show earlier. | 0:02:07 | 0:02:09 | |
The stories, if they are true,
are totally unacceptable | 0:02:09 | 0:02:12 | |
and the Cabinet Office will be
conducting an investigation | 0:02:12 | 0:02:15 | |
as to whether there has been
a breach of the ministerial code | 0:02:15 | 0:02:18 | |
in this particular case. | 0:02:18 | 0:02:19 | |
But as you know the
facts are disputed. | 0:02:19 | 0:02:21 | |
This is something that covers
behaviour by MPs of all parties | 0:02:21 | 0:02:24 | |
and that is why the other thing
that is going to happen | 0:02:24 | 0:02:27 | |
is that today Theresa May
is going to write to John Bercow, | 0:02:27 | 0:02:30 | |
the Speaker of the House of Commons,
to ask for his advice as to how | 0:02:30 | 0:02:33 | |
we change that culture. | 0:02:33 | 0:02:39 | |
That was Jeremy Hunt a little
earlier. I want to turn to the panel | 0:02:39 | 0:02:43 | |
to make sense of this news. This is
the government taking these | 0:02:43 | 0:02:48 | |
allegations quite seriously. What
has changed in this story is they | 0:02:48 | 0:02:52 | |
used to be a bit of delay while
people work out what they should say | 0:02:52 | 0:02:56 | |
about it, how seriously to take it.
As you see now a senior cabinet | 0:02:56 | 0:03:02 | |
member out there, Jeremy Hunt, with
an instant response. He does have | 0:03:02 | 0:03:06 | |
the worry of whether the facts are
disputed, but what they want to be | 0:03:06 | 0:03:09 | |
seen doing is to do something very
quickly. In the past they would say | 0:03:09 | 0:03:14 | |
it was all part of the rough and
tumble of Westminster. Mark Garnier | 0:03:14 | 0:03:19 | |
does not deny these stories, which
is that he asked an employee to buy | 0:03:19 | 0:03:24 | |
sex toys, but he said it was just
high jinks and it was taken out of | 0:03:24 | 0:03:28 | |
context. Is this the sort of thing
that a few years ago in a different | 0:03:28 | 0:03:32 | |
environment would be investigated?
Not necessarily quite the frenzy | 0:03:32 | 0:03:37 | |
that it is nowadays. The combination
of social media, all the Sunday | 0:03:37 | 0:03:45 | |
political programmes were ministers
have to go on armed with a response | 0:03:45 | 0:03:47 | |
means that you get these we have to
be seen to be doing something. That | 0:03:47 | 0:03:55 | |
means there is this Cabinet Office
investigation. You pointed out to us | 0:03:55 | 0:04:00 | |
before the programme that he was not
a minister before this happened. It | 0:04:00 | 0:04:03 | |
does not matter whether he says yes,
know I did this or did not, | 0:04:03 | 0:04:08 | |
something has to be seen to be done.
Clearly ministers today are being | 0:04:08 | 0:04:12 | |
armed with that bit of information
and that Theresa May will ask John | 0:04:12 | 0:04:17 | |
Bercow the speaker to look into the
whole culture of Parliament in this | 0:04:17 | 0:04:20 | |
context. That is the response to
this kind of frenzy. If we do live | 0:04:20 | 0:04:27 | |
in an environment where something
has to be seen to be done, does that | 0:04:27 | 0:04:30 | |
always mean the right thing gets
done? Absolutely not. We are in | 0:04:30 | 0:04:35 | |
witch hunt territory. All of us work
in the Commons over many years and | 0:04:35 | 0:04:39 | |
anyone would think it was a scene
out of Benny Hill or a carry on | 0:04:39 | 0:04:44 | |
film. Sadly it is not that much fun
and it is rather dull and dreary. | 0:04:44 | 0:04:50 | |
Yes, there are sex pests, yes, there
is sexual harassment, but the idea | 0:04:50 | 0:04:55 | |
this is going on on a huge scale is
nonsense. Doesn't matter whether it | 0:04:55 | 0:04:59 | |
is a huge scale or not? Or just a
few instances? Any workplace where | 0:04:59 | 0:05:06 | |
you have the mixing of work and
social so intertwined and you throw | 0:05:06 | 0:05:10 | |
a huge amount of alcohol and late
night and people living away from | 0:05:10 | 0:05:14 | |
home you will have this happen. That
does not make it OK. It makes sexual | 0:05:14 | 0:05:20 | |
harassment not OK as it is not
anywhere. This happens to men as | 0:05:20 | 0:05:25 | |
well and if they have an issue into
it there are employment tribunal 's | 0:05:25 | 0:05:30 | |
and they can contact lawyers. I do
not think this should be a matter of | 0:05:30 | 0:05:34 | |
the speaker, it should be someone
completely independent of any party. | 0:05:34 | 0:05:40 | |
People think MPs are employees of
the party or the Commons, they are | 0:05:40 | 0:05:44 | |
not. Because they are self-employed
to whom do you go if you are a | 0:05:44 | 0:05:48 | |
researcher? That has to be
clarified. I agree you need a much | 0:05:48 | 0:05:54 | |
clearer line of reporting. It was a
bit like the situation when we came | 0:05:54 | 0:06:00 | |
into the media many years ago, the
Punic wars in my case! You were not | 0:06:00 | 0:06:05 | |
quite sure who to go to. If you work
worried that it might impede your | 0:06:05 | 0:06:12 | |
career, and you had to talk to
people who work next to you, that is | 0:06:12 | 0:06:17 | |
just one example, but in the Commons
people do not know who they should | 0:06:17 | 0:06:21 | |
go to. Where Theresa May might be
making a mistake, it is the same | 0:06:21 | 0:06:26 | |
mistake when it was decided to
investigate through Levinson the | 0:06:26 | 0:06:29 | |
culture of the media which was like
nailing jelly to a wall. Look at the | 0:06:29 | 0:06:36 | |
culture of anybody's job and the
environment they are in and there is | 0:06:36 | 0:06:39 | |
usually a lot wrong with it. When
you try and make it general, they | 0:06:39 | 0:06:44 | |
are not trying to blame individuals,
or it say they need a better line on | 0:06:44 | 0:06:49 | |
reporting of sexual harassment,
which I support, the Commons is a | 0:06:49 | 0:06:54 | |
funny place and it is a rough old
trade and you are never going to | 0:06:54 | 0:06:57 | |
iron out the human foibles of that.
Diane Abbott was talking about this | 0:06:57 | 0:07:02 | |
earlier. | 0:07:02 | 0:07:06 | |
When I first went into Parliament so
many of those men had been to all | 0:07:06 | 0:07:10 | |
boys boarding schools and had really
difficult attitudes towards women. | 0:07:10 | 0:07:17 | |
The world has moved on and
middle-aged women are less likely | 0:07:17 | 0:07:21 | |
than middle-aged men to believe that
young research are irresistibly | 0:07:21 | 0:07:30 | |
attracted to them. We have seen the
issues and we have seen one of our | 0:07:30 | 0:07:35 | |
colleagues been suspended for quite
unacceptable language. | 0:07:35 | 0:07:41 | |
That is a point, Jarrod O'Mara, a
Labour MP who has had the whip | 0:07:41 | 0:07:46 | |
suspended, this goes across all
parties. The idea that there is a | 0:07:46 | 0:07:51 | |
left or right divide over this is
absurd. This is a cultural issue. In | 0:07:51 | 0:07:56 | |
the media and in a lot of other
institutions if this is going to | 0:07:56 | 0:08:01 | |
develop politically, the frenzy will
carry on for a bit and other names | 0:08:01 | 0:08:05 | |
will come out over the next few
days, not just the two we have | 0:08:05 | 0:08:09 | |
mentioned so far in politics. But it
also raises questions about how | 0:08:09 | 0:08:16 | |
candidates are selected for example.
There has been a huge pressure for | 0:08:16 | 0:08:21 | |
the centre to keep out of things. I
bet from now on there will be much | 0:08:21 | 0:08:26 | |
greater scrutiny of all candidates
and tweets will have to be looked at | 0:08:26 | 0:08:30 | |
and all the rest of it. Selecting
candidates is interesting. Miriam | 0:08:30 | 0:08:37 | |
Gonzalez, Nick Clegg's wife, says
that during that election they knew | 0:08:37 | 0:08:41 | |
about Jarrod O'Mara and the Lib Dems
knew about it, so it is difficult to | 0:08:41 | 0:08:45 | |
suggest the Labour Party did not as
well. There is very clear evidence | 0:08:45 | 0:08:51 | |
the Labour Party did know. But we
are in a situation of how perfect | 0:08:51 | 0:08:56 | |
and well-behaved does everyone have
to be? If you look at past American | 0:08:56 | 0:09:03 | |
presidents, JFK and Bill Clinton,
these men were sex pest | 0:09:03 | 0:09:07 | |
extraordinaire, with totally
inappropriate behaviour on a regular | 0:09:07 | 0:09:10 | |
basis. There are things you are not
allowed to say if you are feminists. | 0:09:10 | 0:09:15 | |
Young women are really attracted to
powerful men. I was busted for the | 0:09:15 | 0:09:19 | |
idea that there are young women in
the House of commons who are | 0:09:19 | 0:09:23 | |
throwing themselves at middle-aged,
potbellied, balding, older men. We | 0:09:23 | 0:09:30 | |
need to focus on the right things.
When it is unwanted, harassing, | 0:09:30 | 0:09:37 | |
inappropriate and criminal,
absolutely, you come down like a | 0:09:37 | 0:09:40 | |
tonne of bricks. It is not just
because there are more women in the | 0:09:40 | 0:09:43 | |
Commons, it is because there are
more men married to women like us. | 0:09:43 | 0:09:48 | |
We have to leave it there. | 0:09:48 | 0:09:50 | |
As attention turns in
Westminster to the hundreds | 0:09:50 | 0:09:53 | |
of amendments put down on the EU
Withdrawal Bill, David Davis has | 0:09:53 | 0:09:56 | |
caused a stir this week by saying
it's possible Parliament won't get | 0:09:56 | 0:09:59 | |
a vote on the Brexit deal
until after March 2019 - | 0:09:59 | 0:10:01 | |
when the clock runs out
and we leave the EU. | 0:10:01 | 0:10:04 | |
Let's take a look at how
the controversy played out. | 0:10:04 | 0:10:06 | |
And which point do you envisage
Parliament having a vote? | 0:10:06 | 0:10:10 | |
As soon as possible thereafter. | 0:10:10 | 0:10:12 | |
This Parliament? | 0:10:12 | 0:10:15 | |
As soon as possible
possible thereafter, yeah. | 0:10:15 | 0:10:17 | |
As soon as possible thereafter. | 0:10:17 | 0:10:18 | |
So, the vote in Parliament... | 0:10:18 | 0:10:19 | |
The other thing... | 0:10:19 | 0:10:20 | |
Could be after March 2019? | 0:10:20 | 0:10:22 | |
It could be, yeah, it could be. | 0:10:22 | 0:10:24 | |
The... | 0:10:24 | 0:10:25 | |
It depends when it concludes. | 0:10:25 | 0:10:27 | |
Mr Barnier, remember,
has said he'd like... | 0:10:27 | 0:10:29 | |
Sorry, the vote of our Parliament,
the UK Parliament, could be | 0:10:29 | 0:10:32 | |
after March 2019? | 0:10:32 | 0:10:33 | |
Yes, it could be. | 0:10:33 | 0:10:35 | |
Could be. | 0:10:35 | 0:10:37 | |
The thing to member... | 0:10:37 | 0:10:37 | |
Which would be... | 0:10:37 | 0:10:39 | |
Well, it can't come
before we have the deal. | 0:10:39 | 0:10:42 | |
You said that it is POSSIBLE that
Parliament night not vote | 0:10:42 | 0:10:44 | |
on the deal until AFTER
the end of March 2019. | 0:10:44 | 0:10:48 | |
I'm summarising correctly
what you said...? | 0:10:48 | 0:10:49 | |
Yeah, that's correct. | 0:10:49 | 0:10:51 | |
In the event we don't do
the deal until then, yeah. | 0:10:51 | 0:10:54 | |
Can the Prime Minister please
explain how it's possible | 0:10:54 | 0:10:56 | |
to have a meaningful vote
on something that's | 0:10:56 | 0:10:58 | |
already taken place? | 0:10:58 | 0:11:02 | |
As the honourable gentleman knows,
we're in negotiations | 0:11:02 | 0:11:06 | |
with the European Union, but I am
confident that the timetable under | 0:11:06 | 0:11:09 | |
the Lisbon Treaty does give time
until March 2019 | 0:11:09 | 0:11:13 | |
for the negotiations to take place. | 0:11:13 | 0:11:15 | |
But I'm confident, because it is in
the interests of both sides, | 0:11:15 | 0:11:18 | |
it's not just this Parliament that
wants to have a vote on that deal, | 0:11:18 | 0:11:21 | |
but actually there will be
ratification by other parliaments, | 0:11:21 | 0:11:23 | |
that we will be able to achieve that
agreement and that negotiation | 0:11:23 | 0:11:28 | |
in time for this Parliament
to have a vote that we committed to. | 0:11:28 | 0:11:31 | |
We are working to reach
an agreement on the final deal | 0:11:31 | 0:11:34 | |
in good time before we leave
the European Union in March 2019. | 0:11:34 | 0:11:37 | |
Clearly, we cannot say
for certain at this stage | 0:11:37 | 0:11:39 | |
when this will be agreed. | 0:11:39 | 0:11:41 | |
But as Michel Barnier said,
he hopes to get a draft deal | 0:11:41 | 0:11:44 | |
agreed by October 2018,
and that's our aim is well. | 0:11:44 | 0:11:49 | |
agreed by October 2018,
and that's our aim as well. | 0:11:49 | 0:11:52 | |
I'm joined now by the former
Shadow Foreign Secretary Hilary | 0:11:52 | 0:11:55 | |
Benn, who is the chair
of the Commons Brexit Committee, | 0:11:55 | 0:11:57 | |
which David Davis was
giving evidence to. | 0:11:57 | 0:12:00 | |
Good morning. When you think a
parliamentary vote should take place | 0:12:00 | 0:12:06 | |
in order for it to be meaningful? It
has to be before we leave the | 0:12:06 | 0:12:12 | |
European Union. Michel Barnier said
at the start of the negotiations | 0:12:12 | 0:12:15 | |
that he wants to wrap them up by
October of next year, so we have | 0:12:15 | 0:12:20 | |
only got 12 months left, the clock
is ticking and there is a huge | 0:12:20 | 0:12:23 | |
amount of ground to cover. You do
not think there is any point in | 0:12:23 | 0:12:27 | |
having the vote the week before we
leave because you could then not go | 0:12:27 | 0:12:38 | |
and re-negotiate? That would not be
acceptable. We will not be given a | 0:12:38 | 0:12:41 | |
bit of paper and told to take it or
leave it. But the following day | 0:12:41 | 0:12:44 | |
Steve Baker, also a minister in the
department, told our committee that | 0:12:44 | 0:12:47 | |
the government now accepts that in
order to implement transitional | 0:12:47 | 0:12:50 | |
arrangements that it is seeking, it
will need separate legislation. I | 0:12:50 | 0:12:55 | |
put the question to him if you are
going to need separate legislation | 0:12:55 | 0:12:59 | |
to do that, why don't you have a
separate bill to implement the | 0:12:59 | 0:13:03 | |
withdrawal agreement rather than
seeking to use the powers the | 0:13:03 | 0:13:06 | |
government is proposing to take in
the EU withdrawal bill. If we stick | 0:13:06 | 0:13:11 | |
to the timing, you have said you do
not think it is possible to | 0:13:11 | 0:13:14 | |
negotiate a trade deal in the next
12 months. You say the only people | 0:13:14 | 0:13:19 | |
who think that is possible British
ministers. If you do not believe we | 0:13:19 | 0:13:23 | |
can get a deal negotiated, how can
we get a vote on it in 12 months' | 0:13:23 | 0:13:28 | |
time? If things go well, and there
is still a risk of no agreement | 0:13:28 | 0:13:33 | |
which would be disastrous for the
economy and the country, if | 0:13:33 | 0:13:47 | |
things go there will be a deal on
the divorce issues, there will be a | 0:13:52 | 0:13:55 | |
deal on the nature of the
transitional arrangement and the | 0:13:55 | 0:13:57 | |
government is to set out how it
thinks that will work, and then an | 0:13:57 | 0:14:00 | |
agreement between the UK and the 27
member states saying, we will now | 0:14:00 | 0:14:03 | |
negotiate a new trade and market
access arrangement, and new | 0:14:03 | 0:14:04 | |
association agreement between the
two parties, and that will be done | 0:14:04 | 0:14:07 | |
in the transition period. Parliament
will be voting in those | 0:14:07 | 0:14:09 | |
circumstances on a deal which leads
to the door being open. But we would | 0:14:09 | 0:14:14 | |
be outside the EU at that point, so
how meaningful can vote be where you | 0:14:14 | 0:14:18 | |
take it or leave it if we have
already left the EU? Surely this has | 0:14:18 | 0:14:24 | |
to happen before March 2019 for it
to make a difference? I do not think | 0:14:24 | 0:14:30 | |
it is possible to negotiate all of
the issues that will need to be | 0:14:30 | 0:14:34 | |
covered in the time available. Then
it is not possible to have a | 0:14:34 | 0:14:39 | |
meaningful vote on it? Parliament
will have to have a look at the deal | 0:14:39 | 0:14:50 | |
presented to it. It is likely to be
a mix agreement so the approval | 0:14:50 | 0:14:53 | |
process in the rest of Europe,
unlike the Article 50 agreement, | 0:14:53 | 0:14:55 | |
which will be a majority vote in the
European Parliament and in the | 0:14:55 | 0:14:58 | |
British Parliament, every single
Parliament will have a vote on it, | 0:14:58 | 0:15:01 | |
so it will be a more complex process
anyway, but I do not think that is | 0:15:01 | 0:15:06 | |
the time to get all of that sorted
between now and October next year. | 0:15:06 | 0:15:12 | |
Whether it is before or after we
have left the EU, the government | 0:15:12 | 0:15:16 | |
have said it is a take it or leave
it option and it is the Noel Edmonds | 0:15:16 | 0:15:20 | |
option, deal or no Deal, you say yes
or no to it. You cannot send them | 0:15:20 | 0:15:28 | |
back to re-negotiate. | 0:15:28 | 0:15:32 | |
If it is a separate piece of
legislation, when Parliament has a | 0:15:32 | 0:15:37 | |
chance to shape the nature of that
legislation. But it can't change | 0:15:37 | 0:15:42 | |
what has been negotiated with the
EU? Well, you could say to the | 0:15:42 | 0:15:46 | |
government, we're happy with this
but was not happy about that chukka | 0:15:46 | 0:15:51 | |
here's some fresh instructions, go
back in and... It seems to me what | 0:15:51 | 0:15:57 | |
they want is the maximum access to
the single market for the lowest | 0:15:57 | 0:16:01 | |
possible tariffs, whilst able to
control migration. If they've got to | 0:16:01 | 0:16:05 | |
get the best deal that they can on
that, how on earth is the Labour | 0:16:05 | 0:16:10 | |
Party, saying we want a bit more,
owing to persuade the other 27? We | 0:16:10 | 0:16:14 | |
certainly don't want the lowest
possible tariffs, we want no tariffs | 0:16:14 | 0:16:18 | |
are taught. My personal view is
that, has made a profound mistake in | 0:16:18 | 0:16:22 | |
deciding that it wants to leave the
customs union. If you want to help | 0:16:22 | 0:16:27 | |
deal with the very serious question
of the border between Northern | 0:16:27 | 0:16:32 | |
Ireland and the Republic of Ireland,
the way you do that is to stay in | 0:16:32 | 0:16:36 | |
the customs union and I hope, will
change its mind. But the Labour | 0:16:36 | 0:16:41 | |
Party is simply saying in the House
of Commons, we want a better deal | 0:16:41 | 0:16:44 | |
than what, has been able to get? It
depends how the negotiations unfold. | 0:16:44 | 0:16:52 | |
, has ended up on the transitional
arrangements in the place that Keir | 0:16:52 | 0:16:57 | |
Starmer set out on behalf of the
shadow cabinet in August, when he | 0:16:57 | 0:17:03 | |
said, we will need to stay in the
single market and the customs union | 0:17:03 | 0:17:06 | |
for the duration of the transition,
and I think that is the position, | 0:17:06 | 0:17:09 | |
has now reached. It has not been
helped by differences of view within | 0:17:09 | 0:17:14 | |
the Cabinet, and a lot of time has
passed and there's proved time left | 0:17:14 | 0:17:18 | |
and we have not even got on to the
negotiations. -- there's very little | 0:17:18 | 0:17:23 | |
time left. On phase two, the labour
Party have set out six clear tests, | 0:17:23 | 0:17:29 | |
and two of them are crucial. You say
you want the exact same benefits we | 0:17:29 | 0:17:34 | |
currently have in the customs union
but you also want to be able to | 0:17:34 | 0:17:38 | |
ensure the fair migration to control
immigration, basically, which does | 0:17:38 | 0:17:42 | |
sound a bit like having your cake
and eating it. You say that you will | 0:17:42 | 0:17:45 | |
vote against any deal that doesn't
give you all of that, the exact same | 0:17:45 | 0:17:49 | |
benefits of the single market, and
allowing you to control migration. | 0:17:49 | 0:17:53 | |
But you say no deal would be
catastrophic if so it seems to me | 0:17:53 | 0:17:56 | |
you're unlikely to get the deal that
you could vote for but you don't | 0:17:56 | 0:18:00 | |
want to vote for no deal? We
absolutely don't want a no deal. | 0:18:00 | 0:18:05 | |
Businesses have sent a letter to the
Prime Minister saying that a | 0:18:05 | 0:18:10 | |
transition is essential because the
possibility of a no deal and no | 0:18:10 | 0:18:13 | |
transitional would be very damaging
for the economy. We fought the | 0:18:13 | 0:18:16 | |
general election on a policy of
seeking to retain the benefits of | 0:18:16 | 0:18:19 | |
the single market and the customs
union. Keir Starmer said on behalf | 0:18:19 | 0:18:24 | |
of the shadow government that as far
as the longer term arrangements are | 0:18:24 | 0:18:29 | |
concerned, that should leave all
options on the table, because it is | 0:18:29 | 0:18:31 | |
the end that you're trying to
achieve and you then find the means | 0:18:31 | 0:18:35 | |
to support it. So we're setting out
very clearly those tests. If you | 0:18:35 | 0:18:40 | |
were to vote down an agreement
because it did not meet your tests, | 0:18:40 | 0:18:44 | |
and there was time to send, back to
the EU to get a better deal, then | 0:18:44 | 0:18:50 | |
you would have significantly
weakened their negotiating hand | 0:18:50 | 0:18:51 | |
chukka that doesn't help them? I
don't think, has deployed its | 0:18:51 | 0:18:56 | |
negotiating hand very strongly thus
far. Because we had a general | 0:18:56 | 0:19:00 | |
election which meant that we lost
time that we would have used for | 0:19:00 | 0:19:03 | |
negotiating. We still don't know
what kind of long-term trade and | 0:19:03 | 0:19:08 | |
market access deal, wants. The Prime
Minister says, I don't want a deal | 0:19:08 | 0:19:14 | |
like Canada and I don't want a deal
like the European Economic Area. But | 0:19:14 | 0:19:18 | |
we still don't know what kind of
deal they want. With about 12 months | 0:19:18 | 0:19:23 | |
to go, the other thing, needs to do
is to set out very clearly above all | 0:19:23 | 0:19:27 | |
for the benefit of the other 27
European countries, what kind of | 0:19:27 | 0:19:32 | |
deal it wants. When I travel to
Europe and talk to those involved in | 0:19:32 | 0:19:35 | |
the negotiations, you see other
leaders saying, we don't actually | 0:19:35 | 0:19:40 | |
know what Britain wants. With a year
to go it is about time we made that | 0:19:40 | 0:19:44 | |
clear. One related question on the
European Union - you spoke in your | 0:19:44 | 0:19:50 | |
famous speech in Syria about the
international brigades in Spain, and | 0:19:50 | 0:19:53 | |
I wonder if your solidarity with
them leads you to think that the UK | 0:19:53 | 0:19:58 | |
Government should be recognising
Catalonia is an independent state? | 0:19:58 | 0:20:01 | |
No, I don't think so. It is a very
difficult and potentially dangerous | 0:20:01 | 0:20:06 | |
situation in Catalonia at the
moment. Direct rule from Madrid is | 0:20:06 | 0:20:11 | |
not a long-term solution. There
needs to be a negotiation, and | 0:20:11 | 0:20:16 | |
elections will give Catalonia the
chance to take that decision, but I | 0:20:16 | 0:20:20 | |
am not clear what the declaration of
independence actually means. Are | 0:20:20 | 0:20:26 | |
they going to be borders, is they're
going to be an army? There will have | 0:20:26 | 0:20:30 | |
to be some agreement. Catalonia has
already had a high degree of | 0:20:30 | 0:20:34 | |
autonomy. It may like some more, and
it seems to me if you look at the | 0:20:34 | 0:20:38 | |
experience here in the United
Kingdom, that is the way to go, not | 0:20:38 | 0:20:43 | |
a constitutional stand-off. And I
really hope nobody is charged with | 0:20:43 | 0:20:47 | |
rebellion, because actually that
would make matters worse. | 0:20:47 | 0:20:51 | |
Now, the Government has this
week reopened the public | 0:20:51 | 0:20:55 | |
consultation on plans for a third
runway at Heathrow. | 0:20:55 | 0:20:57 | |
While ministers are clear
the £18 billion project | 0:20:57 | 0:20:59 | |
is still the preferred option,
new data raises further questions | 0:20:59 | 0:21:02 | |
about the environmental
impact of expansion, | 0:21:02 | 0:21:03 | |
and offers an improved
economic case for a second | 0:21:03 | 0:21:05 | |
runway at Gatwick instead. | 0:21:05 | 0:21:06 | |
So, with opponents on all sides
of the Commons, does the Government | 0:21:06 | 0:21:09 | |
still have the votes to get
the plans off the ground? | 0:21:09 | 0:21:12 | |
Here's Elizabeth Glinka. | 0:21:12 | 0:21:21 | |
The debate over the expansion
of Heathrow has been | 0:21:25 | 0:21:27 | |
going on for decades. | 0:21:27 | 0:21:29 | |
Plans for a third runway
were first introduced | 0:21:29 | 0:21:31 | |
by the Labour government in 2003. | 0:21:31 | 0:21:33 | |
Then, after spending millions
of pounds, finally, in 2015, | 0:21:33 | 0:21:36 | |
the airport commission recommended
that those plans go ahead, | 0:21:36 | 0:21:41 | |
and the government position
appeared to be fixed. | 0:21:41 | 0:21:45 | |
But, of course, since then,
we've had a general election. | 0:21:45 | 0:21:47 | |
The Government have lost
their Commons majority. | 0:21:47 | 0:21:51 | |
And with opposition on both front
benches, the Parliamentary | 0:21:51 | 0:21:54 | |
arithmetic looks a little bit up
in the air. | 0:21:54 | 0:21:59 | |
A lot has changed since the airport
commission produced its report, | 0:21:59 | 0:22:02 | |
and that don't forget
was the bedrock for the Government's | 0:22:02 | 0:22:05 | |
decision, that's why the government
supposedly made the decision | 0:22:05 | 0:22:07 | |
that it made. | 0:22:07 | 0:22:08 | |
But most of the assumptions
made in that report have | 0:22:08 | 0:22:11 | |
been undermined since,
by data on passenger numbers, | 0:22:11 | 0:22:13 | |
on economic benefits, and more
than anything, on pollution. | 0:22:13 | 0:22:16 | |
There's demand from international
carriers to get into Heathrow. | 0:22:16 | 0:22:19 | |
More and more people want to fly. | 0:22:19 | 0:22:21 | |
And after the referendum,
connectivity post-Brexit | 0:22:21 | 0:22:25 | |
is going to be absolutely critical
to the UK economy, so if anything, | 0:22:25 | 0:22:28 | |
I think the case is stronger
for expansion at Heathrow. | 0:22:28 | 0:22:34 | |
A vote on expansion had been due
to take place this summer. | 0:22:34 | 0:22:37 | |
But with Westminster somewhat
distracted, that didn't happen. | 0:22:37 | 0:22:39 | |
Now, fresh data means
the Government has had to reopen | 0:22:39 | 0:22:42 | |
the public consultation. | 0:22:42 | 0:22:47 | |
But it maintains the case
for Heathrow is as strong as ever, | 0:22:47 | 0:22:51 | |
delivering benefits of up
to £74 billion to the wider economy. | 0:22:51 | 0:22:56 | |
And in any case, the Government
says, action must be taken, | 0:22:56 | 0:22:59 | |
as all five of London's airports
will be completely | 0:22:59 | 0:23:03 | |
full by the mid-2030s. | 0:23:03 | 0:23:07 | |
Still, the new research does cast
an alternative expansion at Gatwick | 0:23:07 | 0:23:10 | |
in a more favourable economic light,
while showing Heathrow | 0:23:10 | 0:23:14 | |
is now less likely to meet
its environmental targets. | 0:23:14 | 0:23:21 | |
Campaigners like these in Hounslow
sense the wind is shifting. | 0:23:21 | 0:23:26 | |
We're feeling encouraged,
because we see all kinds | 0:23:26 | 0:23:29 | |
of weaknesses in the argument. | 0:23:29 | 0:23:31 | |
Certainly, quite a few MPs,
I think certainly Labour MPs, | 0:23:31 | 0:23:34 | |
are beginning to think perhaps it's
not such a great idea | 0:23:34 | 0:23:36 | |
to have a third runway. | 0:23:36 | 0:23:39 | |
Their MP is convinced colleagues
can now be persuaded | 0:23:39 | 0:23:41 | |
to see things their way. | 0:23:41 | 0:23:43 | |
The Labour Party quite
rightly set four key tests | 0:23:43 | 0:23:46 | |
for a third runway at Heathrow. | 0:23:46 | 0:23:49 | |
And in my view,
Heathrow is not able... | 0:23:49 | 0:23:51 | |
The Heathrow option is not able
to pass any of those. | 0:23:51 | 0:23:55 | |
So, I see a lot of colleagues
in the Labour Party around | 0:23:55 | 0:23:58 | |
the country beginning
to think twice. | 0:23:58 | 0:24:01 | |
And if you look at the cross-party
MPs supportin this anti-Heathrow | 0:24:01 | 0:24:07 | |
And if you look at the cross-party
MPs supporting this anti-Heathrow | 0:24:07 | 0:24:10 | |
protest this week, you will see
some familiar faces. | 0:24:10 | 0:24:12 | |
You know my position -
as the constituency MP, | 0:24:12 | 0:24:14 | |
I'm totally opposed. | 0:24:14 | 0:24:15 | |
I think this is another indication
of just the difficulties | 0:24:15 | 0:24:18 | |
the Government have got off
of implementing this policy. | 0:24:18 | 0:24:20 | |
I don't think it's going to happen,
I just don't think | 0:24:20 | 0:24:23 | |
it's going to happen. | 0:24:23 | 0:24:24 | |
So, if some on the Labour
front bench are, shall | 0:24:24 | 0:24:27 | |
we say, not supportive,
what about the other side? | 0:24:27 | 0:24:29 | |
In a free vote, we could have had up
to 60 Conservative MPs | 0:24:29 | 0:24:32 | |
voting against expansion,
that's the number that is normally | 0:24:32 | 0:24:34 | |
used and I think it's right. | 0:24:34 | 0:24:36 | |
In the circumstances where it
requires an active rebellion, | 0:24:36 | 0:24:38 | |
the numbers would be fewer. | 0:24:38 | 0:24:40 | |
I can't tell you what that
number is, but I can tell | 0:24:40 | 0:24:43 | |
you that there are people right
the way through the party, | 0:24:43 | 0:24:45 | |
from the backbenches
to the heart of the government, | 0:24:45 | 0:24:47 | |
who will vote against
Heathrow expansion. | 0:24:47 | 0:24:49 | |
And yet the SNP, whose Commons
votes could prove vital, | 0:24:49 | 0:24:52 | |
are behind the Heathrow plan,
which promises more | 0:24:52 | 0:24:54 | |
connecting flights. | 0:24:54 | 0:24:55 | |
And other supporters are convinced
they have the numbers. | 0:24:55 | 0:24:59 | |
There is a majority of members
of Parliament that support Heathrow | 0:24:59 | 0:25:03 | |
expansion, and when that is put
to the test, whenever that will be, | 0:25:03 | 0:25:06 | |
I think that will be
clearly demonstrated. | 0:25:06 | 0:25:08 | |
Any vote on this issue
won't come until next summer. | 0:25:08 | 0:25:10 | |
For both sides, yet more time
to argue about weather | 0:25:10 | 0:25:12 | |
the plans should take off
or be permanently grounded. | 0:25:12 | 0:25:20 | |
Elizabeth Glinka there. | 0:25:23 | 0:25:25 | |
And I'm joined now by the former
Cabinet minister Theresa Villiers, | 0:25:25 | 0:25:27 | |
who oversaw aviation policy
as a transport minister | 0:25:27 | 0:25:29 | |
under David Cameron. | 0:25:29 | 0:25:36 | |
Thanks for coming in. You have made
your opposition to a third runway at | 0:25:36 | 0:25:41 | |
Heathrow consistently clear. , have
reopened this consultation but it is | 0:25:41 | 0:25:45 | |
still clearly their preferred
option? It is but what I have always | 0:25:45 | 0:25:49 | |
asked is, why try to build a new
runway at Heathrow when you can | 0:25:49 | 0:25:52 | |
build one at Gatwick in half the
time, for half the cost and with a | 0:25:52 | 0:25:56 | |
tiny fraction of the environment
will cost average is that true, | 0:25:56 | 0:26:00 | |
though? Private finance is already
to go at Heathrow, because that's | 0:26:00 | 0:26:04 | |
where people want to do it and
that's where the private backers | 0:26:04 | 0:26:07 | |
want to put it. It would take much
longer to get the private finance | 0:26:07 | 0:26:10 | |
for Gatwick? Part of that private
finance is passengers of the future, | 0:26:10 | 0:26:15 | |
but also, the costs of the surface
transport needed to expand Heathrow | 0:26:15 | 0:26:20 | |
is phenomenal. I mean, TfL estimates
vary between £10 billion and £15 | 0:26:20 | 0:26:29 | |
billion. And there's no suggestion
that those private backers are going | 0:26:29 | 0:26:32 | |
to meet those costs. So, this is a
hugely expensive project as well as | 0:26:32 | 0:26:37 | |
one which will create very
significant damage. Heathrow is | 0:26:37 | 0:26:41 | |
ultimately where passengers and
airlines want to go to, isn't it? | 0:26:41 | 0:26:44 | |
Every slot is practically full.
Every time a new one comes up, it is | 0:26:44 | 0:26:48 | |
up immediately, it's a very popular
airport. Gatwick is not where they | 0:26:48 | 0:26:54 | |
want to go? There are many airlines
and passengers who do want to fly | 0:26:54 | 0:26:57 | |
from Gatwick, and all the forecasts
indicate that a new runway there | 0:26:57 | 0:27:01 | |
would be full of planes very
rapidly. But I think the key thing | 0:27:01 | 0:27:05 | |
is that successive elements have
said, technology will deliver a way | 0:27:05 | 0:27:11 | |
to resolve the around noise and air
quality. I don't have any confidence | 0:27:11 | 0:27:17 | |
that science has demonstrated that
technology will deliver those | 0:27:17 | 0:27:21 | |
solutions to these very serious
environmental limbs which have | 0:27:21 | 0:27:25 | |
stopped Heathrow expansion for
decades. Jim Fitzpatrick in the film | 0:27:25 | 0:27:27 | |
was mentioning that people think
there is a need for even more | 0:27:27 | 0:27:33 | |
collectivity in Britain post-Brexit.
We know that business has been | 0:27:33 | 0:27:35 | |
crying out for more routes, they
really think it hurts business | 0:27:35 | 0:27:39 | |
expansion that we don't get on with
this. More consultation is just | 0:27:39 | 0:27:43 | |
going to lead to more delay, isn't
it? This is a hugely controversial | 0:27:43 | 0:27:47 | |
decision. There is a reason why
people have been talking about | 0:27:47 | 0:27:50 | |
expanding Heathrow for 50 years and
it is never happened, it's because | 0:27:50 | 0:27:54 | |
it's a bad idea. So, inevitably the
legal processes are very complex. | 0:27:54 | 0:27:59 | |
One of my anxieties about, pursuing
this option is that potentially it | 0:27:59 | 0:28:03 | |
means another lost decade for
airport expansion. Because the | 0:28:03 | 0:28:07 | |
problems with Heathrow expansion are
so serious, I believe that's one of | 0:28:07 | 0:28:12 | |
the reasons why I advocated, anyone
who wants a new runway in the | 0:28:12 | 0:28:16 | |
south-east should be backing Gatwick
is a much more deliverable option. | 0:28:16 | 0:28:19 | |
Let me move on to Brexit. We were
talking with Hilary Benn about a | 0:28:19 | 0:28:26 | |
meaningful vote being given to the
House of Commons chukka how | 0:28:26 | 0:28:29 | |
important do you think that is? Of
course the Commons will vote on | 0:28:29 | 0:28:31 | |
this. The Commons is going to vote
on this many, many times. We have | 0:28:31 | 0:28:37 | |
also had a hugely important vote not
only in the referendum on the 23rd | 0:28:37 | 0:28:41 | |
of June but also on Article 50. But
will that vote allow any changes to | 0:28:41 | 0:28:45 | |
it? Hilary Benn seemed to think that
the Commons would be able to shape | 0:28:45 | 0:28:50 | |
the deal with the vote. But actually
is it going to be, saying, take it | 0:28:50 | 0:28:54 | |
or leave it at all what we have
negotiated? Our Prime Minister | 0:28:54 | 0:29:00 | |
negotiates on our behalf
internationally. It's | 0:29:00 | 0:29:05 | |
well-established precedent that
after an agreement is reached | 0:29:05 | 0:29:07 | |
overseas, then it is considered in
the House of Commons. What if it was | 0:29:07 | 0:29:13 | |
voted down in the House of Commons?
Well, the legal effect of that would | 0:29:13 | 0:29:17 | |
be that we left the European Union
without any kind of deal, because | 0:29:17 | 0:29:19 | |
the key decision was on the voting
of Article 50 as an irreversible | 0:29:19 | 0:29:25 | |
decision. Is it irreversible,
though? We understand, may have had | 0:29:25 | 0:29:30 | |
legal advice saying that Yukon
stopped the clock on Article 50. | 0:29:30 | 0:29:33 | |
Would it not be possible if the
Commons voted against to ask the | 0:29:33 | 0:29:37 | |
European Union for a little bit more
time to try and renegotiate? There | 0:29:37 | 0:29:40 | |
is a debate about the reversibility
of Article 50. But the key point is | 0:29:40 | 0:29:49 | |
that we are all working for a good
deal for the United Kingdom and the | 0:29:49 | 0:29:55 | |
I'm concerned that some of the
amendments to the legislation are | 0:29:55 | 0:29:59 | |
not about the nature of the deal at
the end of the process, they're just | 0:29:59 | 0:30:02 | |
about frustrating the process. I
think that would be wrong. I think | 0:30:02 | 0:30:08 | |
we should respect the result of the
referendum. Will it be by next | 0:30:08 | 0:30:12 | |
summer, so there is time for
Parliament and for other | 0:30:12 | 0:30:14 | |
parliaments? I certainly hope that
we get that agreement between the | 0:30:14 | 0:30:17 | |
two sides, and the recent European
summit seemed to indicate a | 0:30:17 | 0:30:23 | |
willingness from the European side
to be constructive. But one point | 0:30:23 | 0:30:26 | |
where I think Hilary Benn has a
point, if we do secure agreement on | 0:30:26 | 0:30:31 | |
a transitional deal, that does
potentially give us more time to | 0:30:31 | 0:30:34 | |
work on the details of a trade
agreement. I hope we get as much as | 0:30:34 | 0:30:39 | |
possible in place before exit day.
But filling out some of that detail | 0:30:39 | 0:30:43 | |
is made easier if we can secure that
two-year transitional deal. | 0:30:43 | 0:30:51 | |
That is interesting because a lot of
Brexiteers what the deal to be done | 0:30:51 | 0:30:57 | |
by the inflammation period, it is
not a time for that. I fully | 0:30:57 | 0:31:05 | |
recognise we need compromise, I am
keen to work with people across my | 0:31:05 | 0:31:10 | |
party in terms of spectrum of
opinion, and with other parties as | 0:31:10 | 0:31:14 | |
well to ensure we get the best
outcome. Let me ask you briefly | 0:31:14 | 0:31:19 | |
before you go about the possible
culture of sexual harassment in the | 0:31:19 | 0:31:23 | |
House of commons and Theresa May
will write to the Speaker of the | 0:31:23 | 0:31:28 | |
House of Commons to make sure there
is a better way that people can | 0:31:28 | 0:31:31 | |
report sexual harassment in the
House of commons. Is that necessary? | 0:31:31 | 0:31:36 | |
A better procedure is needed. It is
sad it has taken this controversy to | 0:31:36 | 0:31:42 | |
push this forward. But there is a
problem with MPs who are individual | 0:31:42 | 0:31:46 | |
employers. If you work for an MP and
have a complaint against them, | 0:31:46 | 0:31:52 | |
essentially they are overseeing
their own complaints process. I | 0:31:52 | 0:31:55 | |
think a role for the House of
commons authorities in ensuring that | 0:31:55 | 0:32:00 | |
those complaints are properly dealt
with I think would be very helpful, | 0:32:00 | 0:32:03 | |
so I think the Prime Minister's
letter was a sensible move. So you | 0:32:03 | 0:32:08 | |
think there is a culture of sexual
harassment in the House of commons? | 0:32:08 | 0:32:12 | |
I have not been subjected to it or
seen evidence of it, but obviously | 0:32:12 | 0:32:18 | |
there is anxiety and allegations
have made their way into the papers | 0:32:18 | 0:32:22 | |
and they should be treated
appropriately and properly | 0:32:22 | 0:32:26 | |
investigated. Thank you for talking
to us. | 0:32:26 | 0:32:27 | |
Thank you for talking to us. | 0:32:27 | 0:32:29 | |
Next week the Lord Speaker's
committee publishes its final report | 0:32:29 | 0:32:32 | |
into reducing the size
of the House of Lords. | 0:32:32 | 0:32:34 | |
With over 800 members the upper
house is the second largest | 0:32:34 | 0:32:37 | |
legislative chamber in the world
after the National People's | 0:32:37 | 0:32:39 | |
Congress of China. | 0:32:39 | 0:32:40 | |
The report is expected to recommend
that new peerages should be | 0:32:40 | 0:32:43 | |
time-limited to 15 years and that
in the future political peerage | 0:32:43 | 0:32:45 | |
appointments will also be tied
to a party's election performance. | 0:32:45 | 0:32:50 | |
The government has been under
pressure to take action to cut | 0:32:50 | 0:32:52 | |
members of the unelected chamber,
where they are entitled | 0:32:52 | 0:32:56 | |
to claim an attendance
allowance of £300 a day. | 0:32:56 | 0:32:59 | |
And once again these expenses
have been in the news. | 0:32:59 | 0:33:02 | |
The Electoral Reform Society
discovered that 16 peers had claimed | 0:33:02 | 0:33:05 | |
around £400,000 without speaking
in any debates or submitting any | 0:33:05 | 0:33:08 | |
questions for an entire year. | 0:33:08 | 0:33:12 | |
One of the Lords to be
criticised was Digby Jones, | 0:33:12 | 0:33:14 | |
the crossbencher and former trade
minister, he hasn't spoken | 0:33:14 | 0:33:17 | |
in the Lords since April 2016
and has voted only seven times | 0:33:17 | 0:33:21 | |
during 2016 and 2017. | 0:33:21 | 0:33:24 | |
Yet he has claimed around
£15,000 in this period. | 0:33:24 | 0:33:28 | |
When asked what he does
in the House he said, | 0:33:28 | 0:33:30 | |
"I go in and I will invite for lunch
or meet with inward | 0:33:30 | 0:33:33 | |
investors into the country. | 0:33:33 | 0:33:35 | |
I fly the flag for Britain." | 0:33:35 | 0:33:38 | |
Well, we can speak now
to Lord Jones who joins us | 0:33:38 | 0:33:41 | |
from Stratford Upon Avon. | 0:33:41 | 0:33:45 | |
Thank you very much for talking to
us. You provide value for money in | 0:33:45 | 0:33:49 | |
the House of Lords do you think?
Definitely. I am, by the way, very | 0:33:49 | 0:33:57 | |
keen on reform. I want to see that
15 year tide. I would like to see a | 0:33:57 | 0:34:01 | |
time limit, an age limit of 75 or
80. I would like attendants | 0:34:01 | 0:34:07 | |
definitely define so the whole
public understood what people are | 0:34:07 | 0:34:11 | |
paying for and why. The £300, as a
crossbencher I get no support, and | 0:34:11 | 0:34:18 | |
nor do I want any, speech writing,
secretarial assistance, none of | 0:34:18 | 0:34:26 | |
that, and the £300 goes towards
that. Whilst you are in there | 0:34:26 | 0:34:30 | |
because we will talk about the
reform of the Lords in general, but | 0:34:30 | 0:34:34 | |
in terms of you yourself, you say
you invite people in for lunch, is | 0:34:34 | 0:34:38 | |
it not possible for you to take part
in debates and votes and ask | 0:34:38 | 0:34:42 | |
questions at the same time? Have you
ever listened to a debate in the | 0:34:42 | 0:34:47 | |
laws? Yes, many times. Yes, many
times. You have to put your name | 0:34:47 | 0:34:59 | |
down in advance and you have to be
there for the whole debate. You have | 0:34:59 | 0:35:07 | |
to be around when the vote is called
and you do not know when the book is | 0:35:07 | 0:35:11 | |
called, you have no idea when the
boat is going to be called. This is | 0:35:11 | 0:35:15 | |
part of being a member of the House
of Lords and what it means. If you | 0:35:15 | 0:35:21 | |
are not prepared to wait or take
part in debates, why do you want to | 0:35:21 | 0:35:25 | |
be a member? It is possible to
resign from the House of Lords. | 0:35:25 | 0:35:30 | |
There are many things members of the
Lords do that does not relate to | 0:35:30 | 0:35:34 | |
parrot fashion following somebody
else, which I refuse to do, about | 0:35:34 | 0:35:39 | |
speaking to an empty chamber, or
indeed hanging on sometimes for | 0:35:39 | 0:35:43 | |
hours to vote. There are many other
things that you do. You quote me as | 0:35:43 | 0:35:48 | |
saying I will entertain at lunchtime
or show people around the House, | 0:35:48 | 0:35:53 | |
everything from schoolchildren to
inward investors. I will meet | 0:35:53 | 0:35:56 | |
ministers about big business issues
or educational issues, and at the | 0:35:56 | 0:36:00 | |
same time I will meet other members
of the Lords to get things moving. | 0:36:00 | 0:36:05 | |
None of that relates to going into
the House and getting on your hind | 0:36:05 | 0:36:09 | |
legs, although I do go in and sit
there and learn and listen to | 0:36:09 | 0:36:12 | |
others, which, if more people would
receive and not transmit, we might | 0:36:12 | 0:36:19 | |
get a better informed society. At
the same time many times I will go | 0:36:19 | 0:36:23 | |
after I have listened and I am
leaving and if I have not heard the | 0:36:23 | 0:36:27 | |
debate, I will not vote. Voting is
an essential part of being part of a | 0:36:27 | 0:36:34 | |
legislative chamber. This is not
just an executive committee, it is a | 0:36:34 | 0:36:39 | |
legislature, surpassing that law is
essential, is it not? Do you really | 0:36:39 | 0:36:44 | |
believe that an MP or a member of
the Lords who has not heard a moment | 0:36:44 | 0:36:48 | |
of the debate, who is then listening
to the Bell, walks in and does not | 0:36:48 | 0:36:54 | |
know which lobby, the whips tell
him, they have not heard the debate | 0:36:54 | 0:36:59 | |
and they do not know what they are
voting on and they go and do it? | 0:36:59 | 0:37:03 | |
That is your democracy? Voting seems
to be an essential part of this | 0:37:03 | 0:37:10 | |
chamber, and you have your ideas
about reforming the chamber. It | 0:37:10 | 0:37:14 | |
sounds as though you would reform
yourself out of it. You say people | 0:37:14 | 0:37:18 | |
who are not voting and who are not
taking part in debate should no | 0:37:18 | 0:37:21 | |
longer be members of the House. I
did not say that. I said we ought to | 0:37:21 | 0:37:28 | |
redefine what attendance means and
then if you do not attend on the new | 0:37:28 | 0:37:32 | |
criteria, you do not have to come
ever again, we will give you your | 0:37:32 | 0:37:36 | |
wish. I agree attendance might mean
unless you speak, you are going. | 0:37:36 | 0:37:42 | |
Fair enough, if that is what is
agreed, yes. Sometimes I would speak | 0:37:42 | 0:37:47 | |
and sometimes I would not. If I did
not, then off I go. Similarly after | 0:37:47 | 0:37:53 | |
15 years, off you go. If you reach
75 or 80, off you go. Why do we have | 0:37:53 | 0:37:59 | |
92 members who are only there
because of daddy. You are talking | 0:37:59 | 0:38:05 | |
about hereditary peers. You would
like to reduce the House to what | 0:38:05 | 0:38:07 | |
kind of number? I would get it down
to 400. You would get rid of half | 0:38:07 | 0:38:14 | |
the peers there at the moment? You
think you are active enough to | 0:38:14 | 0:38:18 | |
remain as one of the 400? No, I said
that might well include me. Let's | 0:38:18 | 0:38:26 | |
get a set of criteria, let's push it
through, because the laws is losing | 0:38:26 | 0:38:31 | |
respect in the whole of the country
because there are too many and all | 0:38:31 | 0:38:34 | |
these things about what people pay
for. I bet most people think the | 0:38:34 | 0:38:38 | |
money you get is paid. It is not, it
is re-funding for all the things you | 0:38:38 | 0:38:44 | |
have to pay for yourself. But I
understand how respect has been lost | 0:38:44 | 0:38:49 | |
in society. Let's change it now.
Let's get it through and then, yes, | 0:38:49 | 0:38:54 | |
if you do not meet the criteria, you
have got to go and that includes me. | 0:38:54 | 0:38:59 | |
Lloyd Jones, thank you for talking
to us. | 0:38:59 | 0:39:01 | |
Lloyd Jones, thank
you for talking to us. | 0:39:01 | 0:39:04 | |
It's coming up to 11.40,
you're watching the Sunday Politics. | 0:39:04 | 0:39:06 | |
Coming up on the programme,
we'll be talking to the former | 0:39:06 | 0:39:09 | |
business minister and Conservative
MP Anna Soubry about the Brexit | 0:39:09 | 0:39:11 | |
negotiations and claims of sexual
harassment in Parliament. | 0:39:11 | 0:39:13 | |
Hello, welcome to the Sunday
Politics in the Midlands. | 0:39:23 | 0:39:27 | |
From the heartlands of British
industry, we have the results | 0:39:27 | 0:39:29 | |
of our own Brexit survey. | 0:39:29 | 0:39:30 | |
Positive or negative -
which camp are our local | 0:39:30 | 0:39:33 | |
business leaders in? | 0:39:33 | 0:39:37 | |
We've asked nearly 700
of them as the clock ticks | 0:39:37 | 0:39:40 | |
down towards Brexit day. | 0:39:40 | 0:39:46 | |
It's political uncertanty they hate
the most, so I'll be talking to two | 0:39:46 | 0:39:50 | |
of the politicians at the sharp end
of all this - Khalid Mahmood, | 0:39:50 | 0:39:53 | |
Labour MP for Birmingham Perry Barr
and Shadow Minister for Europe. | 0:39:53 | 0:39:55 | |
And Mark Garnier, Conservative MP
for Wyre Forest, the globe-trotting | 0:39:55 | 0:39:58 | |
International Trade Minister who's
drumming up business for Britain | 0:39:58 | 0:40:02 | |
around the soon-to-be
post-Brexit World. | 0:40:02 | 0:40:06 | |
Good to have you both with us today. | 0:40:06 | 0:40:09 | |
But we begin with a call
for a Government whip to resign | 0:40:09 | 0:40:12 | |
or be sacked for writing a letter
condemned by university | 0:40:12 | 0:40:14 | |
leaders as "McCarthyism". | 0:40:14 | 0:40:17 | |
Vice chancellors, including the head
of Worcester University, received | 0:40:17 | 0:40:20 | |
the letter from the Conservative
arch-Brexiteer Chris | 0:40:20 | 0:40:21 | |
Heaton-Harris, MP for Daventry. | 0:40:21 | 0:40:26 | |
He asked the university chiefs
to explain what they are teaching | 0:40:26 | 0:40:29 | |
their students about Brexit,
to detail the content | 0:40:29 | 0:40:31 | |
of their lectures and to list
the names of their teachers. | 0:40:31 | 0:40:34 | |
When I read this letter,
a chill went down my spine | 0:40:34 | 0:40:40 | |
because I realised immediately
that this was a sinister letter | 0:40:40 | 0:40:42 | |
aimed at compromising academic
freedom and the liberties | 0:40:42 | 0:40:44 | |
of the British people. | 0:40:44 | 0:40:51 | |
I am absolutely certain
that the purpose of this list, | 0:40:51 | 0:40:53 | |
if he could compile one,
would be to publish the guilty | 0:40:53 | 0:40:57 | |
people who are responsible in some
way or another for influencing young | 0:40:57 | 0:41:00 | |
people to think in a way which he
himself does not approve of. | 0:41:00 | 0:41:07 | |
The Vice Chancellor of your local
university in Worcester, Mark. He | 0:41:07 | 0:41:12 | |
wants Mr Heaton-Harris to go. What
would you say to him? I have known | 0:41:12 | 0:41:19 | |
David for a long time. Chris and
David. Chris Heaton-Harris is a | 0:41:19 | 0:41:23 | |
friend. I have worked hard with him
on projects previously. If he was a | 0:41:23 | 0:41:29 | |
swivel-eyed, lunatic Brexiteer, I
would think there was something | 0:41:29 | 0:41:34 | |
menacing about this. But he is very
pragmatic and I like him very much. | 0:41:34 | 0:41:38 | |
There is no question of McCarthyism.
You just try to get an idea of what | 0:41:38 | 0:41:41 | |
is going on. You would see why
people feel that it smacks of | 0:41:41 | 0:41:45 | |
McCarthyism. There is an implication
that listing names looks | 0:41:45 | 0:41:49 | |
uncomfortably like compiling a
dossier of names. I agree. It does | 0:41:49 | 0:41:54 | |
not look good. Having read the
letter, it looks like just a rather | 0:41:54 | 0:41:59 | |
sort of sloppily crafted letter,
rather than something which is | 0:41:59 | 0:42:01 | |
creating a list... Should Mr
Heaton-Harris go? He should consider | 0:42:01 | 0:42:08 | |
what he has written. He should go?
He should consider his position | 0:42:08 | 0:42:15 | |
because it does smell of that. If
the Education Department was this | 0:42:15 | 0:42:18 | |
the lecturers need to look at what
they are delivering and how they do | 0:42:18 | 0:42:23 | |
that, that is different. How balance
the reading and teaching is. To name | 0:42:23 | 0:42:30 | |
people is a huge problem. The right
that sort of document to academics | 0:42:30 | 0:42:34 | |
is unforgivable. Maybe he also has
an mind that according to a YouGov | 0:42:34 | 0:42:41 | |
survey, something like 80% of
lecturers in universities voted to | 0:42:41 | 0:42:44 | |
remain in the EU. Maybe there is a
point, giving universities take a | 0:42:44 | 0:42:50 | |
lot of public money. They get over
60% from Europe. I do not think | 0:42:50 | 0:42:55 | |
their integrity would be challenged
in this way. Most of these people | 0:42:55 | 0:43:00 | |
spend their life... They respect the
freedom they have and that is what | 0:43:00 | 0:43:04 | |
universities are about. Thank you. | 0:43:04 | 0:43:07 | |
Perhaps the sincerest commentary
on the pros and cons of Brexit comes | 0:43:07 | 0:43:10 | |
from the people with skin
in the game - the thousands | 0:43:10 | 0:43:12 | |
of companies here in Britain's
industrial heartlands. | 0:43:12 | 0:43:17 | |
We're told business hates
uncertainty, but it hates | 0:43:17 | 0:43:19 | |
uncertainty about Brexit most
of all, according to our own | 0:43:19 | 0:43:21 | |
Sunday Politics survey
of nearly 700 local firms. | 0:43:21 | 0:43:25 | |
Our Hereford and Worcester political
reporter, James Pearson, | 0:43:25 | 0:43:28 | |
has been asking those company bosses
why they responded as they did. | 0:43:28 | 0:43:38 | |
Steeling themselves
for a surge in sales. | 0:43:39 | 0:43:41 | |
While these handmade,
high-spec caravans are British | 0:43:41 | 0:43:44 | |
built, many are destined
for foreign fields. | 0:43:44 | 0:43:47 | |
Since last year's referendum,
Worcestershire?based manufacturers | 0:43:47 | 0:43:52 | |
Rocket Caravans have
seen their exports take off. | 0:43:52 | 0:43:53 | |
Since Brexit, turnover has increased
I would say between 20 and 25%. | 0:43:53 | 0:44:02 | |
As a direct result of the value
of the pound dropping. | 0:44:02 | 0:44:05 | |
We have seen this particularly
with our Australian distributor, | 0:44:05 | 0:44:07 | |
who has taken about six units
a year from us. | 0:44:07 | 0:44:10 | |
In the last 12 months,
they have taken 15 from us. | 0:44:10 | 0:44:13 | |
So, that has made a massive
difference to that market. | 0:44:13 | 0:44:16 | |
Rocket Caravans are feeling
upbeat about Brexit. | 0:44:16 | 0:44:18 | |
But it seems they
are in the minority. | 0:44:18 | 0:44:22 | |
In our survey, only 16%
of manufacturers here | 0:44:22 | 0:44:25 | |
in Herefordshire and Worcestershire
say Brexit has had a positive | 0:44:25 | 0:44:27 | |
impact on their business. | 0:44:27 | 0:44:28 | |
Nearly half say that the effect has
been neutral so far, | 0:44:28 | 0:44:31 | |
while more than a third say that it
has had a negative impact. | 0:44:31 | 0:44:37 | |
Outdoors outfitters Olpro
fall into that camp. | 0:44:41 | 0:44:43 | |
Owner Dan Walton was in the Remain
tent during the referendum. | 0:44:43 | 0:44:51 | |
Conversations with customers
since have left him worried | 0:44:51 | 0:44:53 | |
at being left in the cold by clients
on the continent. | 0:44:53 | 0:44:55 | |
Our main export market is Germany
and our main wholesaler there has | 0:44:55 | 0:45:01 | |
already delayed making decisions
on whether they will do new lines | 0:45:01 | 0:45:04 | |
from us or whether they go
to European suppliers instead. | 0:45:04 | 0:45:06 | |
So already for us,
it is having an effect. | 0:45:06 | 0:45:08 | |
It's a picture repeated
across the region. | 0:45:08 | 0:45:10 | |
In the survey we carried out
in association with local | 0:45:10 | 0:45:12 | |
Chambers of Commerce,
of the 689 businesses that took | 0:45:12 | 0:45:16 | |
part, 26% reported a negative impact
since the Brexit vote, | 0:45:16 | 0:45:19 | |
with just 11% reporting
a positive one. | 0:45:19 | 0:45:22 | |
By far the largest number ? 63% -
said that so far the effect | 0:45:22 | 0:45:26 | |
on their business had been
a neutral one. | 0:45:26 | 0:45:29 | |
Food for thought for one
of those ministers involved | 0:45:29 | 0:45:31 | |
in getting a Brexit deal. | 0:45:32 | 0:45:38 | |
We are entering these negotiations
with a constructive approach, | 0:45:38 | 0:45:41 | |
looking to achieve a comprehensive
deal between the UK and | 0:45:41 | 0:45:45 | |
the European Union on these fronts,
and we think that's something that | 0:45:45 | 0:45:50 | |
should be in the interest
of all sides. | 0:45:50 | 0:45:52 | |
It is in the interest of UK
businesses but also to the European | 0:45:52 | 0:45:55 | |
supply chains and European
businesses with whom | 0:45:55 | 0:45:56 | |
we're interacting. | 0:45:56 | 0:45:57 | |
With talks on the UK's future
relationship with the EU | 0:45:57 | 0:46:00 | |
still months away from starting,
those representing businesses say | 0:46:00 | 0:46:02 | |
many can't wait long for certainty. | 0:46:02 | 0:46:03 | |
Businesses are trying to remain
positive and they do not like to be | 0:46:03 | 0:46:08 | |
frightened off by any particular
terms, like saying businesses | 0:46:08 | 0:46:15 | |
are going to ruin their chances
because they are very positive | 0:46:15 | 0:46:17 | |
about their future and growth. | 0:46:18 | 0:46:19 | |
But businesses are definitely
being affected by Brexit | 0:46:19 | 0:46:21 | |
and we will be seeing more and more
of that as we get | 0:46:21 | 0:46:24 | |
closer to spring 2019. | 0:46:24 | 0:46:25 | |
With Brexit talks bogged down
on that all-important Brexit Bill, | 0:46:25 | 0:46:27 | |
businesses may have to wait months
longer for the politicians to hammer | 0:46:27 | 0:46:30 | |
out a future trade deal. | 0:46:30 | 0:46:34 | |
James Pearson compiled that survey
with the help of the Chambers | 0:46:34 | 0:46:37 | |
of Commerce in Herefordshire
and Worcestershire, | 0:46:37 | 0:46:38 | |
Coventry and Warwickshire,
the Black Country and Shropshire. | 0:46:38 | 0:46:45 | |
And we're also joined here today
by the Ukip MEP, Jim Carver. | 0:46:45 | 0:46:48 | |
Until recently, he was his party's
Foreign and Commonwealth spokesman. | 0:46:48 | 0:46:51 | |
Now he's their Assistant
Deputy Leader. | 0:46:51 | 0:46:57 | |
Jim, much more negativity than
positivity out there apparently. | 0:46:57 | 0:47:00 | |
What would you say to them? It
depends who you ask. I get a lot of | 0:47:00 | 0:47:05 | |
positivity. Yesterday, the
Worcestershire Grove barometer | 0:47:05 | 0:47:09 | |
released figures showing the top 50
medium-sized companies in | 0:47:09 | 0:47:15 | |
Worcestershire have seen an amazing
growth. 2.4 billion in extra revenue | 0:47:15 | 0:47:18 | |
now asked three-year. In Wyre
Forest, when I have my constituency, | 0:47:18 | 0:47:26 | |
we have seen a 50% increase in
employment in those companies. What | 0:47:26 | 0:47:29 | |
would you say to Daniel Walton, the
camping equipment supplier, who says | 0:47:29 | 0:47:35 | |
that his customers in Germany and
elsewhere in Europe quite logically, | 0:47:35 | 0:47:38 | |
they would look to suppliers
elsewhere in the EU rather than to | 0:47:38 | 0:47:42 | |
him, to cut out the uncertainty
altogether? With the pound dropping, | 0:47:42 | 0:47:47 | |
it is finding a true value. It was
completely overvalued and it has | 0:47:47 | 0:47:52 | |
come down in price, better for
exporters. I do business overseas. I | 0:47:52 | 0:48:00 | |
heard it is great for export. What
you have to look at is | 0:48:00 | 0:48:05 | |
competitiveness for your product.
Rocket Caravans have, with a bespoke | 0:48:05 | 0:48:10 | |
product that has become far more
attractive. Let me suggest to you | 0:48:10 | 0:48:14 | |
that it is the increasing
possibility of the no deal outcome | 0:48:14 | 0:48:17 | |
that is really splitting them. I
have seems figures from the London | 0:48:17 | 0:48:20 | |
School of Economics which suggests
Birmingham's economy could suffer by | 0:48:20 | 0:48:24 | |
£7 billion a year with a dual
outcome and the economy of the city | 0:48:24 | 0:48:29 | |
could be hit down by 5.5 billion a
year. I don't buy that. As an MEP, | 0:48:29 | 0:48:37 | |
what we here in the European
Parliament, I am having discussions | 0:48:37 | 0:48:39 | |
with MEPs, people in the commission,
European Commission also -- | 0:48:39 | 0:48:44 | |
officials. We have a huge trade
deficit with the European Union. And | 0:48:44 | 0:48:51 | |
the elephant in the room is not even
been discussed. When we leave the | 0:48:51 | 0:48:56 | |
European Union in 2019, what you
will find, Patrick, is that when we | 0:48:56 | 0:49:00 | |
go to the WTO, if we do not have a
deal, a figure of around 80%... | 0:49:00 | 0:49:05 | |
No-one is discussed this at
Westminster at all. No-one has | 0:49:05 | 0:49:08 | |
discussed the fact that 80% of the
Tavis that could be introduced under | 0:49:08 | 0:49:12 | |
WTO rules will have to be paid by
the member states directly to the | 0:49:12 | 0:49:15 | |
commission. It is actually
commission's interest to go away and | 0:49:15 | 0:49:19 | |
have an ordeal. Is Jim Wright?
Bearing in mind that there have been | 0:49:19 | 0:49:23 | |
also some reasons from David Davis
and Theresa May is a -- in last few | 0:49:23 | 0:49:30 | |
days that this uncertainty could
last a lot longer beyond March 2019. | 0:49:30 | 0:49:35 | |
Potentially, yes. But as was said in
that piece, what we're trying to | 0:49:35 | 0:49:40 | |
achieve something that businesses
essentially feels very similar to | 0:49:40 | 0:49:43 | |
what we have at the moment. A carrot
in the EU. Customs free as well. | 0:49:43 | 0:49:51 | |
Going back to the tent seller. What
is interesting is if the customers | 0:49:51 | 0:49:56 | |
in Germany and looking round, what
they are actually doing is paying | 0:49:56 | 0:50:00 | |
15% more for the product than they
would otherwise be paying if they | 0:50:00 | 0:50:03 | |
continue to buy from him. The
question which comes back to this... | 0:50:03 | 0:50:05 | |
This is where we need to unravel the
knot, because sterling is down 50% | 0:50:05 | 0:50:12 | |
and is probably where it should be,
I am not sure what the tariffs are | 0:50:12 | 0:50:18 | |
on Kent but the trade weight tariff
for the whole of the UK trade with | 0:50:18 | 0:50:22 | |
the EU in 2015 was 2.9%. For the
economy as a whole, it is actually | 0:50:22 | 0:50:27 | |
now seeing a 13%... We are now 13%
cheaper for the European Union and | 0:50:27 | 0:50:34 | |
before -- than before. Tavis can be
negotiated. They are heading down. | 0:50:34 | 0:50:43 | |
Labour's position is constructive
ambiguity. You have one eye on the | 0:50:43 | 0:50:50 | |
Remains aborting younger voters and
your other eye on the other people | 0:50:50 | 0:50:54 | |
who voted to leave the EU. We are
committed to exiting the European | 0:50:54 | 0:51:00 | |
Union. We want good terms for the
transition deal. With Xbox we're | 0:51:00 | 0:51:07 | |
doing at the moment, we have to
remember the pound is low. We still | 0:51:07 | 0:51:10 | |
have the agreements with Europe
under current Tavis. -- tariffs. But | 0:51:10 | 0:51:22 | |
there is ambiguity at the moment for
the company is, particularly | 0:51:22 | 0:51:26 | |
financial pharmaceuticals, and some
of the big research and development | 0:51:26 | 0:51:35 | |
companies moving to Europe to seek
stability. Unless we provide | 0:51:35 | 0:51:39 | |
stability post Brexit, they cannot
plan. That is precisely why I | 0:51:39 | 0:51:46 | |
argued... The very next day I was in
parliament after the referendum, I | 0:51:46 | 0:51:49 | |
argued that we should be actually
instigating Article 50 immediately. | 0:51:49 | 0:51:54 | |
Waiting a year has created so much
uncertainty. I was hoping to tell | 0:51:54 | 0:51:58 | |
you how important carmaking industry
is in this part of the world. The | 0:51:58 | 0:52:03 | |
boss of JL are is worried about
access to the European Union. We | 0:52:03 | 0:52:08 | |
know that car manufacturers are
going to be seeing Theresa May next | 0:52:08 | 0:52:12 | |
week about their anxieties over
this. Guess what, we can see | 0:52:12 | 0:52:16 | |
year-on-year decreases in castles
for the first month running. What | 0:52:16 | 0:52:19 | |
would you say to them? I would say
that we are buying far more | 0:52:19 | 0:52:25 | |
personal, citron, Renault etc from
the European Union... Sorry, if I | 0:52:25 | 0:52:36 | |
can finish. We are buying these
great quality cars from Germany | 0:52:36 | 0:52:40 | |
because we like them and as consumer
lead. But a lot of the components | 0:52:40 | 0:52:45 | |
are made in the UK because of
British quality. We are producing 2 | 0:52:45 | 0:52:50 | |
million cars, probably more than at
any other time. A lot of components | 0:52:50 | 0:52:52 | |
from those cars are coming from
Europe. That is the problem at the | 0:52:52 | 0:52:56 | |
moment. They have to balance how
they deal with that. The trade | 0:52:56 | 0:53:00 | |
tariffs on that do not increase
value. We have a lot of the supply | 0:53:00 | 0:53:14 | |
chain in the automotive industry in
the UK. Panesar 10% on the auto | 0:53:14 | 0:53:18 | |
sector. That is significant. # trade
tariffs are 10%. Sometimes we need | 0:53:18 | 0:53:24 | |
to remember that the likes of five
series BMWs are made in America... I | 0:53:24 | 0:53:32 | |
would love to go on with this but we
must call a halt. Particular franks | 0:53:32 | 0:53:37 | |
to you, Jim Carver, for being with
us today. -- thanks. | 0:53:37 | 0:53:41 | |
Coming soon to a town
near you, Universal Credit. | 0:53:41 | 0:53:43 | |
It's supposed to simplify things
by rolling six benefits into one | 0:53:43 | 0:53:46 | |
payment and to make work pay
because people won't be penalised | 0:53:46 | 0:53:49 | |
for doing extra hours. | 0:53:49 | 0:53:50 | |
The principle behind it is even
supported by the Opposition. | 0:53:50 | 0:53:53 | |
So what's not to like? | 0:53:53 | 0:53:54 | |
Plenty, apparently. | 0:53:54 | 0:53:57 | |
A succession of local MPs took part
in an emergency Commons debate, | 0:53:57 | 0:54:00 | |
and as Kathryn Stanczyszyn explains,
Labour want the roll-out | 0:54:00 | 0:54:02 | |
put on hold. | 0:54:03 | 0:54:05 | |
Universal Credit will arrive at job
centres in six areas of the Midlands | 0:54:05 | 0:54:08 | |
in the run-up to Christmas,
including parts of | 0:54:08 | 0:54:11 | |
Wolverhampton and Birmingham. | 0:54:11 | 0:54:13 | |
But one Labour MP pleaded
with the Government to put | 0:54:13 | 0:54:16 | |
those plans on hold. | 0:54:16 | 0:54:17 | |
Mr Speaker, disaster looms for tens
of thousands of Birmingham citizens. | 0:54:17 | 0:54:21 | |
Come and listen to some
of the heartbreaking cases. | 0:54:21 | 0:54:27 | |
People in tears in our constituency
offices, saying, what are we going | 0:54:27 | 0:54:30 | |
to do over Christmas? Hear
first-hand the real-life experience | 0:54:30 | 0:54:35 | |
of the consequences of your actions.
Have you no heart? Pause Universal | 0:54:35 | 0:54:41 | |
Credit and then get it right. | 0:54:41 | 0:54:44 | |
Labour supports the principal
of Univeral Credit but say the way | 0:54:44 | 0:54:47 | |
it's being implemented is causing
financial hardship, including a rise | 0:54:47 | 0:54:51 | |
in referrals to food banks. | 0:54:51 | 0:54:55 | |
These six-week waiting period is
wishing claimants further into debt. | 0:54:55 | 0:55:00 | |
-- pushing. With some facing further
delays. If they have gone blockaded | 0:55:00 | 0:55:08 | |
circumstances, this forces claimants
to borrow money, rely on food banks | 0:55:08 | 0:55:11 | |
and face eviction whilst waiting for
their first payment. | 0:55:11 | 0:55:15 | |
Conservative backbenchers rallied
to the Government cause, | 0:55:15 | 0:55:18 | |
saying Universal Credit had replaced
a dyfunctional system and, | 0:55:18 | 0:55:20 | |
where it's operating, it is working. | 0:55:20 | 0:55:25 | |
Evidence shows that Universal Credit
is helping people into work faster | 0:55:25 | 0:55:30 | |
and helping them into work and
staying there longer. | 0:55:30 | 0:55:33 | |
With Herefordshire, Shropshire,
Walsall and Coventry all due to get | 0:55:33 | 0:55:35 | |
Universal Credit in the early part
of next year, it's a policy | 0:55:35 | 0:55:40 | |
the Government must get
right if it isn't to risk | 0:55:40 | 0:55:42 | |
a backlash from voters. | 0:55:42 | 0:55:43 | |
Kathryn Stanczyszyn reporting. | 0:55:43 | 0:55:45 | |
And the all-party Work
and Pensions Select Committee has | 0:55:45 | 0:55:48 | |
supported those calls for a pause
in the roll-out of Universal Credit. | 0:55:48 | 0:55:51 | |
They say the six-week wait before
claimants receive their first | 0:55:51 | 0:55:55 | |
payments are causing
"acute financial difficulty". | 0:55:55 | 0:56:01 | |
Mark Garnier, how much pressure does
it take before your Government does | 0:56:01 | 0:56:04 | |
actually concede the point of
pausing this, having a heart? That | 0:56:04 | 0:56:12 | |
is up to the Work and Pensions
Secretary. But what was missing in | 0:56:12 | 0:56:15 | |
this piece was the fact that there
are loans available to people. 50% | 0:56:15 | 0:56:22 | |
in the first month. It is VP of over
a nine-month period. The question we | 0:56:22 | 0:56:26 | |
have to ask is, talking to the
Citizens Advice bureau in Wyre | 0:56:26 | 0:56:33 | |
Forest, we have been dragged to find
out what is going on and we have not | 0:56:33 | 0:56:36 | |
seen the overwhelming numbers of
people coming through at having | 0:56:36 | 0:56:38 | |
troubles over this. But a quarter
having delays of even more than six | 0:56:38 | 0:56:44 | |
weeks. It seems worse. Look, I
agree. I would not want to shock | 0:56:44 | 0:56:48 | |
that point at all. What we are
trying to do is mimic with this | 0:56:48 | 0:56:56 | |
employment. People are employed on a
monthly basis. We want to copy that | 0:56:56 | 0:57:03 | |
as much as we can. If it does not
work like that, there is a | 0:57:03 | 0:57:09 | |
legitimate argument against this.
The way it has been ruled out, it | 0:57:09 | 0:57:12 | |
has not been compiling all doubt
until 2022, but that will iron out | 0:57:12 | 0:57:18 | |
these problems so we can deal with
them. And the key point, as was | 0:57:18 | 0:57:25 | |
mentioned, is getting people into
work more quickly. That has to be a | 0:57:25 | 0:57:28 | |
central argument. It is. Firstly,
the Government has conceded only 55p | 0:57:28 | 0:57:34 | |
phone lines and frankly have --
thankfully have listened. But we | 0:57:34 | 0:57:41 | |
want a pause because of people in
circumstances, especially with | 0:57:41 | 0:57:47 | |
private landlords, who are serving
notices on them. It is very | 0:57:47 | 0:57:50 | |
difficult for them. But what we are
asking for is, let's have a pause, | 0:57:50 | 0:58:00 | |
sees the policies have succeeded,
and what better to support the | 0:58:00 | 0:58:02 | |
people. Iain Duncan Smith says we
should look at it as well. We saw a | 0:58:02 | 0:58:08 | |
roll-out of this in areas where
there was an increase in | 0:58:08 | 0:58:13 | |
homelessness and use of food banks.
That suggests genuine hardship. | 0:58:13 | 0:58:18 | |
There is. We saw some crazy numbers
coming out in Gloucester. It turned | 0:58:18 | 0:58:22 | |
out that there were eight people
instead of 600 people that were | 0:58:22 | 0:58:26 | |
suggested being made homeless by
this. But I do concede this is not | 0:58:26 | 0:58:31 | |
without fault. We need to make sure
the system is at fault of the | 0:58:31 | 0:58:36 | |
limitation of the system. It is to
separate elements. A sensible | 0:58:36 | 0:58:39 | |
approach. We want to look at it,
that is what we want to do. | 0:58:39 | 0:58:44 | |
Let's catch up with the rest
of the political developments making | 0:58:44 | 0:58:47 | |
the news here over the past week. | 0:58:47 | 0:58:48 | |
Our round-up in 60 seconds is
brought to us today by Sarah Bishop. | 0:58:48 | 0:58:55 | |
Hereford is to get a university. | 0:58:55 | 0:58:58 | |
The Government is giving £15 million
to the new institution. | 0:58:58 | 0:59:02 | |
Lack of security cameras
inside Birmingham Prison meant | 0:59:02 | 0:59:07 | |
last December's riots
spread more quickly. | 0:59:07 | 0:59:09 | |
That's the conclusion of a report
by the Independent Monitoring Board. | 0:59:09 | 0:59:14 | |
At PMQs, a Warwickshire MP led
the praise of the emergency services | 0:59:14 | 0:59:19 | |
after a peaceful end to an alleged
firearms incident last | 0:59:19 | 0:59:21 | |
Sunday in Nuneaton. | 0:59:21 | 0:59:22 | |
Will she join me and the honourable
member for Nuneaton | 0:59:22 | 0:59:25 | |
in praising the excellent work
of Warwickshire Police | 0:59:25 | 0:59:27 | |
and West Midlands Ambulance Services
in ensuring the situation | 0:59:27 | 0:59:33 | |
was brought to a swift conclusion
without any casualties? | 0:59:33 | 0:59:35 | |
The Chief Constables of West
Midlands and Staffordshire Police | 0:59:35 | 0:59:37 | |
told the Home Affairs Committee that
a rise in crime, combined | 0:59:37 | 0:59:41 | |
with frozen budgets,
has left their forces struggling | 0:59:41 | 0:59:45 | |
to tackle crime. | 0:59:45 | 0:59:48 | |
And Channel 4 boss David Abraham has
condemned a Tory manifesto pledge | 0:59:48 | 0:59:52 | |
to move Channel 4 out of London. | 0:59:52 | 0:59:54 | |
He told MPs on the Culture Committee
it was "irresponsible". | 0:59:54 | 1:00:01 | |
Mr Abraham was particularly unhappy
public money had been spent | 1:00:01 | 1:00:03 | |
by cities vying for Channel 4. | 1:00:03 | 1:00:06 | |
The West Midlands Mayor Andy Street
has hosted a Westminster reception | 1:00:06 | 1:00:09 | |
in support of Birmingham's campaign. | 1:00:09 | 1:00:10 | |
Stoke also wants
to host the channel. | 1:00:10 | 1:00:17 | |
Obviously, Mr Abraham feels this is
another Tory manifesto commitment | 1:00:17 | 1:00:20 | |
that is not worth the paper it is
printed on. It is going to be | 1:00:20 | 1:00:23 | |
junked, like so much else. Moving
Channel 4 at a London? I hope not. | 1:00:23 | 1:00:28 | |
It would be fantastic to go to
Birmingham. Good on Andy Street | 1:00:28 | 1:00:32 | |
forgetting up there. Right behind
it. I think Mr Abraham needs to get | 1:00:32 | 1:00:39 | |
out of central London, look around
the country and see... Coventry has | 1:00:39 | 1:00:43 | |
also expressed an interest as well.
It is not a formal process. It is | 1:00:43 | 1:00:47 | |
not like one of these conventional
beauty contests, in a way. It is a | 1:00:47 | 1:00:51 | |
bit of an open-ended piece of
string, isn't it? Potentially, yes. | 1:00:51 | 1:00:57 | |
But I think we would be happy to
work on a cross-party basis to get | 1:00:57 | 1:01:02 | |
it to Birmingham or the West
Midlands. What would it bring to the | 1:01:02 | 1:01:05 | |
West Midlands as a region? A huge
amount of resources. Therefore trade | 1:01:05 | 1:01:10 | |
for hotels, restaurants and things
like that. Allowing people in those | 1:01:10 | 1:01:17 | |
industries to join in Birmingham.
Absolutely. It was on this show a | 1:01:17 | 1:01:24 | |
few years ago, we were talking about
empty floors on this building. Now | 1:01:24 | 1:01:30 | |
the BBC has recognised the errors of
its ways and put more people you. | 1:01:30 | 1:01:33 | |
But Channel 4 do not want to leave
London... We will drag him up here. | 1:01:33 | 1:01:41 | |
Screaming! We will watch with
interest. My thanks to our guests. | 1:01:41 | 1:01:47 | |
Finally from me, it's
the "tug of war" that's | 1:01:47 | 1:01:49 | |
lasted four years already,
and still no sign of a result. | 1:01:49 | 1:01:53 | |
Should Acute Hospital services be
concentrated in Telford, | 1:01:53 | 1:01:55 | |
Shrewsbury, or both? | 1:01:55 | 1:01:58 | |
Next week, the Chief Executive
of the Shrewsbury and Telford | 1:01:58 | 1:02:01 | |
Hospital Trust will be
in the hot seat. | 1:02:01 | 1:02:05 | |
Simon Wright joins Jim Hawkins
on BBC Radio Shropshire from ten | 1:02:05 | 1:02:08 | |
o'clock on Thursday morning. | 1:02:08 | 1:02:14 | |
I'm not sure we | 1:02:14 | 1:02:14 | |
With that, it's back to Sarah. | 1:02:15 | 1:02:25 | |
Now, the much anticipated
EU Withdrawal Bill, | 1:02:25 | 1:02:27 | |
which will transfer EU law into UK
law in preparation for Brexit, | 1:02:27 | 1:02:31 | |
is expected to be debated
by MPs later next month. | 1:02:31 | 1:02:35 | |
Critics have called it a "power
grab" as it introduces so-called | 1:02:35 | 1:02:38 | |
Henry VIII powers for Whitehall
to amend some laws without | 1:02:38 | 1:02:41 | |
consulting parliament,
and it faces fierce resistance | 1:02:41 | 1:02:44 | |
from opposition parties
as well as many on the government's | 1:02:44 | 1:02:48 | |
own backbenches, with 300 amendments
and 54 new clauses tabled on it. | 1:02:48 | 1:02:53 | |
We're joined now by the Conservative
MP Anna Soubry who has been a strong | 1:02:53 | 1:02:56 | |
critic of the legislation. | 1:02:56 | 1:03:01 | |
Thank you very much for joining us.
Before we talk about the withdrawal | 1:03:01 | 1:03:05 | |
bill, I would like to bring up with
you that the Prime Minister has just | 1:03:05 | 1:03:10 | |
sent a letter to the Commons Speaker
John Bercow asking for an | 1:03:10 | 1:03:14 | |
independent body to be established
to investigate claims of sexual | 1:03:14 | 1:03:18 | |
harassment in Parliament. What are
your thoughts on that? A very good | 1:03:18 | 1:03:23 | |
idea, sounds like a great deal of
common sense. I had already this | 1:03:23 | 1:03:28 | |
morning sent a request to the
speaker asking for an urgent | 1:03:28 | 1:03:31 | |
statement from the Leader of the
House as to what could now be done | 1:03:31 | 1:03:34 | |
to make sure that any complaints
actually against anybody working in | 1:03:34 | 1:03:41 | |
Parliament, to extend the
protections that workers throughout | 1:03:41 | 1:03:43 | |
the rest of businesses and in other
workplaces have, they should now be | 1:03:43 | 1:03:48 | |
extended into Parliament and asking
for an urgent statement from the | 1:03:48 | 1:03:52 | |
leader. Clearly the PM is well onto
this and it is a good idea. We have | 1:03:52 | 1:03:57 | |
to make sure everybody who works in
Parliament enjoys exactly the same | 1:03:57 | 1:04:01 | |
protections as other workers, so I
welcome this. This should maybe have | 1:04:01 | 1:04:06 | |
happened a long time ago. We hear
stories of harassment that has been | 1:04:06 | 1:04:10 | |
going on for decades, but until now
it has been difficult to work out | 1:04:10 | 1:04:14 | |
who you could complain to about it.
It is my understanding that my Chief | 1:04:14 | 1:04:19 | |
Whip and the previous deputy Chief
Whip, and Milton, shared that view | 1:04:19 | 1:04:24 | |
and have shared that view for some
time but found it difficult to get | 1:04:24 | 1:04:28 | |
all the agreement necessary. Anyway,
we are where we are and we are | 1:04:28 | 1:04:32 | |
making that progress, but | 1:04:32 | 1:04:44 | |
my Chief Whip and the previous
deputy Chief Whip wanted this done | 1:04:45 | 1:04:47 | |
some time ago. That is an
interesting point. Let's move on to | 1:04:47 | 1:04:50 | |
the much anticipated EU withdrawal
bill which will finally be debated. | 1:04:50 | 1:04:52 | |
You have put your name to an
amendment which is calling for a | 1:04:52 | 1:04:55 | |
vote on the final agreement in
essence, do you really believe that | 1:04:55 | 1:04:57 | |
that will be a meaningful both
offered to the Commons? Yes, if you | 1:04:57 | 1:05:01 | |
look at the terms of the amendment,
it would deliver exactly that. It | 1:05:01 | 1:05:06 | |
would give members of Parliament the
opportunity to debated and voted on | 1:05:06 | 1:05:11 | |
it. It would be an effective piece
of legislation and would go through | 1:05:11 | 1:05:15 | |
both houses and should be done. One
of the problems with this process is | 1:05:15 | 1:05:21 | |
that Parliament has been excluded
from the sort of debate and | 1:05:21 | 1:05:25 | |
decisions that would have enabled
the government to move forward in | 1:05:25 | 1:05:29 | |
progress and form a consensus so we
get the very best Brexit deal. We | 1:05:29 | 1:05:40 | |
have been excluded, that has been
wrong in my view, but by the end we | 1:05:40 | 1:05:43 | |
should not be excluded. The
government have made it clear that | 1:05:43 | 1:05:45 | |
whilst there may well be a boat if
you win on this amendment, it will | 1:05:45 | 1:05:48 | |
be a take it or leave it vote. This
is a deal you should accept, or | 1:05:48 | 1:05:53 | |
there will be no deal. If you look
at the amendment we put forward | 1:05:53 | 1:05:59 | |
there will be other alternatives.
This is all hypothetical because we | 1:05:59 | 1:06:03 | |
want a good deal and it is difficult
to see that the government would not | 1:06:03 | 1:06:07 | |
bring a good deal to the House in
any event. But this is hypothetical, | 1:06:07 | 1:06:12 | |
it would mean Parliament would say
to government, go back and seek an | 1:06:12 | 1:06:18 | |
extension as we know it is there in
Article 50. It is perfectly possible | 1:06:18 | 1:06:23 | |
with the agreement of the other
members of the EU to seek an | 1:06:23 | 1:06:28 | |
extension so we continue the
negotiations and we get a deal that | 1:06:28 | 1:06:32 | |
is good for our country. It keeps
all options open and that is the | 1:06:32 | 1:06:36 | |
most important thing. How many
Conservative MPs really would take | 1:06:36 | 1:06:41 | |
that option in those circumstances?
It is only if you get enough votes | 1:06:41 | 1:06:45 | |
that you would be able to ask the
government to go back and | 1:06:45 | 1:06:49 | |
re-negotiate. | 1:06:49 | 1:06:59 | |
Have you for that? For give me, but
you are jumping way down the line. I | 1:07:02 | 1:07:05 | |
am talking about an amendment that
keeps the options open. I am not | 1:07:05 | 1:07:08 | |
speculating as to what would happen,
I am not going there, it is far too | 1:07:08 | 1:07:11 | |
speculative. Let's get this bill in
good shape. The principle of this | 1:07:11 | 1:07:15 | |
bill is right and we need to put
into British domestic law existing | 1:07:15 | 1:07:20 | |
EU laws and regulations into our
substantive law. We all agree that | 1:07:20 | 1:07:25 | |
must happen. It is the means by
which we do it that causes problems | 1:07:25 | 1:07:30 | |
and we have this argument and debate
about what we call the endgame. I am | 1:07:30 | 1:07:36 | |
sure we will talk about this many
more times before we get to that | 1:07:36 | 1:07:40 | |
vote. I will turn to our panel of
political experts. Listening to the | 1:07:40 | 1:07:45 | |
tone of what the remainders are
trying to achieve with the EU | 1:07:45 | 1:07:52 | |
withdrawal bill, will be achieved?
You can hear that tussled there, | 1:07:52 | 1:07:57 | |
they want the maximum space and room
for Parliament to have a say. But | 1:07:57 | 1:08:01 | |
they have to be careful. The reason
is that clock is ticking and if you | 1:08:01 | 1:08:07 | |
have a situation which may seem to
be more interested in finding | 1:08:07 | 1:08:14 | |
different things to object to and
saying no to, it is not getting a | 1:08:14 | 1:08:18 | |
good deal and it does not look good
for the remainders in this argument | 1:08:18 | 1:08:22 | |
and they will have to come through
with their proposals. I do not mind | 1:08:22 | 1:08:27 | |
Parliament saying it should have a
big say, but what do you do if | 1:08:27 | 1:08:30 | |
Parliament says this is not good
enough? The government must simply | 1:08:30 | 1:08:36 | |
say, I am sorry we have run out of
time. The 27 will say they cannot be | 1:08:36 | 1:08:42 | |
bothered to have another round
either. They have to be strong, but | 1:08:42 | 1:08:46 | |
realistic about what their role in
this is. Do you think the people | 1:08:46 | 1:08:50 | |
putting this amendment who say they
want a binding vote in parliament | 1:08:50 | 1:08:55 | |
are doing it because they think
Parliament should have a say or | 1:08:55 | 1:08:58 | |
because they want to obstruct it?
They do not think people should have | 1:08:58 | 1:09:03 | |
a say in the first place, they think
people got it wrong, so they need | 1:09:03 | 1:09:08 | |
more clever people than the voters
to have final say. Or they believed | 1:09:08 | 1:09:15 | |
taking back control means Parliament
should have the final say. | 1:09:15 | 1:09:18 | |
Parliament said they would like to
give that decision back to the | 1:09:18 | 1:09:21 | |
people. This is the issue. It seems
to me that people like Anna Soubry | 1:09:21 | 1:09:28 | |
are trying to delay of the
transition period a bit longer. | 1:09:28 | 1:09:32 | |
These negotiations will take as long
as they have got. The EU will take | 1:09:32 | 1:09:36 | |
it to the wire and if we do not get
a decent deal, and one of the | 1:09:36 | 1:09:44 | |
reasons is the level of incompetence
on this government's part I have to | 1:09:44 | 1:09:47 | |
say and the other one will be the
people who want to remain | 1:09:47 | 1:09:52 | |
undermining them. They undermined
the government at every single stage | 1:09:52 | 1:09:59 | |
and they undermine Britain's
interests. It is the timing of all | 1:09:59 | 1:10:02 | |
of this that is crucial and whether
the government can get a deal in | 1:10:02 | 1:10:06 | |
time. There will be a meaningful
vote, whether it is an shined in | 1:10:06 | 1:10:12 | |
legislation or not, there cannot be
an historic development as big as | 1:10:12 | 1:10:17 | |
this without Parliament having a
meaningful vote. I meaningful, | 1:10:17 | 1:10:22 | |
having the power to either stop it
or endorse it. You cannot have a | 1:10:22 | 1:10:26 | |
government doing something like this
with no vote in the House of | 1:10:26 | 1:10:29 | |
commons. When you say it will go to
the last minute I completely agree, | 1:10:29 | 1:10:36 | |
but last-minute in reality means
next summer. It has got to get | 1:10:36 | 1:10:41 | |
through the European Parliament and
the Westminster Parliament and quite | 1:10:41 | 1:10:44 | |
a few others as well. The trouble
with invoking Parliament is if it is | 1:10:44 | 1:10:52 | |
driven solely by remain, I would
love to say what people in the | 1:10:52 | 1:10:57 | |
league side think. I disagree with
Julia, I do not think you could say | 1:10:57 | 1:11:03 | |
people had their say and the terms
with which we leave are left open | 1:11:03 | 1:11:08 | |
and only the government should have
a say in it, Parliament clearly | 1:11:08 | 1:11:11 | |
should have a say in it. Do we want
a good deal or not? It does not mean | 1:11:11 | 1:11:20 | |
anything if you do not do it by next
summer I suggest. Does that leave | 1:11:20 | 1:11:25 | |
Parliament any room for changing the
deal or is it simply take it or | 1:11:25 | 1:11:29 | |
leave it? It will have to have that
rule because it cannot simply be | 1:11:29 | 1:11:34 | |
another of these binary votes were
you accept the deal or no Deal. | 1:11:34 | 1:11:38 | |
There has to be some space. How can
a few MPs in the House of Commons | 1:11:38 | 1:11:44 | |
change a deal that has been agreed
by the member states? Because of the | 1:11:44 | 1:11:50 | |
sequence, a huge if by the way, if
they vote down the deal that the | 1:11:50 | 1:11:55 | |
government has negotiated, the
government will have to re-negotiate | 1:11:55 | 1:11:58 | |
or there will have to be an
election. This will be a moment of | 1:11:58 | 1:12:02 | |
huge crisis, our government not
getting through its much topped | 1:12:02 | 1:12:05 | |
about... It is a mini Catalonia. I
think it would be as big as | 1:12:05 | 1:12:14 | |
Catalonia, but with the implication
that there would have to be a | 1:12:14 | 1:12:17 | |
practical change in the deal because
if Parliament has not supported | 1:12:17 | 1:12:21 | |
it... It is a remain fantasy that
this deal can be put off and off | 1:12:21 | 1:12:27 | |
until they get something that is as
close to remaining as they can | 1:12:27 | 1:12:31 | |
possibly get. I am very much for
trying to get the best and avoiding | 1:12:31 | 1:12:36 | |
the worst, but there is an unreality
to that position if you keep trying | 1:12:36 | 1:12:42 | |
to do it again and again, at some
point people will want clarity. I | 1:12:42 | 1:12:49 | |
labour putting forward a realistic
proposition? I thought Hilary Benn | 1:12:49 | 1:12:54 | |
was very realistic this morning, I
wish he was more in the driving seat | 1:12:54 | 1:12:59 | |
of Labour policy. He made clear
where he disagreed and he made clear | 1:12:59 | 1:13:04 | |
where he thought the negotiations
had gone off track or were bogged | 1:13:04 | 1:13:06 | |
down. I worry a bit about the Labour
position being incoherent, but that | 1:13:06 | 1:13:15 | |
is kept that way by the present
leadership because as far as they | 1:13:15 | 1:13:19 | |
are concerned the government is
suffering enough, why should they | 1:13:19 | 1:13:23 | |
have a position? Hilary Benn said we
needed to have clarity about the | 1:13:23 | 1:13:28 | |
timetable. It is like reading an
insurance contract and finding the | 1:13:28 | 1:13:32 | |
bit where you might get away with
it. That is not a policy. | 1:13:32 | 1:13:34 | |
That is not a policy. | 1:13:34 | 1:13:37 | |
That's all for today. | 1:13:37 | 1:13:38 | |
Join me again next Sunday
at 11 here on BBC One. | 1:13:38 | 1:13:41 | |
Until then, bye bye. | 1:13:41 | 1:13:46 |