19/11/2017 Sunday Politics West Midlands

Morning everyone, and welcome

to the Sunday Politics.

I'm Sarah Smith.

And this is your guide

to all the big stories that

are shaping politics this weekend,

and a few of the smaller ones too.

Philip Hammond is getting ready

to deliver his latest Budget

on Wednesday and he's not short

of advice - to spend more,

show restraint, even

to stop being an Eyore -

but can he change the direction

of the country and his government?

Conservative Party darling

Jacob Rees-Mogg has

some advice of his own.

He thinks the Chancellor

is being far too gloomy about Brexit

- he joins me live to explain why.

The former Leave campaign leader,

Gisela Stuart, will be here debating

with pro-EU campaigner

Alastair Campbell, after taking

a trip to her native Germany

to speak to businesses

about Brexit.

And, as we wait to find out what's

on the menu for this week's budget,

we're in a diner off

the A1 in Peterborough,

finding out who people most trust

with the economy -

Philip Hammond or John McDonnell?

And in the Midlands:

Yes, there's a Budget coming up.

The Midland Metro?

The Police?

What should be in that famous

briefcase for us here?

Taxing questions in half an hour.

All that coming up in the programme.

And with me for for all of it,

three journalists who've promised

not to show off like Michael Gove

by using any long economicky words -

although I'm not sure they really

know that many anyway -

it's Tom Newton Dunn,

Gaby Hinsliff and Iain Martin.

Let's take a look at the big

political stories making the news

this Sunday morning,

and as you might expect there's

plenty of speculation

about what might or not might be

in Philip Hammond's Budget.

The Chancellor is promising a big

investment in new technology,

including driverless cars -

which could be on the road by 2021.

He's been interviewed

in the Sunday Times,

where he talks about plans to reach

the target of building

300,000 homes every year,

or the equivalent of a city

the size of Leeds.

That paper speculates that he's

attempting to turn from "fiscal

Phil" into "hopeful Hammond"

as he tries to set out

a vision for the country,

not just a list of numbers.

The Sunday Telegraph thinks that

Mr Hammond is planning to offer

a pay rise to nurses as part

of a bid to take on Labour.

But that hasn't impressed

Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell.

He's spoken to a number of papers

and is calling for an emergency

budget to invest in public services

and help struggling households.

So that's a taste of what you might

hear on Wednesday and Mr Hammond

and Mr McDonnell have both been

appearing this morning

on the Andrew Marr Show.

I think Britain has a very

bright future ahead of it,

and we have to embrace

the opportunities that

a post-Brexit world will offer.

They will be opportunities that

are based on huge change,

huge technological evolution.

It's not always going to be easy,

but the British people have shown

time and time again that we're up

for these challenges.

For many people out there,

this is a depression.

We've had people whose wages

have been cut by 10%.

Nurses, for example.

We've had people who are now...

1.25 million food parcels handed out

in the sixth richest

country in the world.

That's what I call a recession

for large numbers of people.

We will be talking about Labour and

their economic policies in a moment,

but let's start with what we might

expect from the budget. We will talk

to our panel of political observers.

Philip Hammond is under pressure to

set out a bold vision and reset the

government's programme. Can we

expect that?

No, we can't. We have

heard enough from the Chancellor

across various broadcast and his

article in the Sunday Times. I think

we will not be getting a bold

budget. His precise words short... A

short time ago were a balanced

budget. Some Tory hearts will think.

They desperately want something to

go out and shout about, something to

capture people's imagination, and do

big and bold things, like how on

earth are they going to build those

new 300,000 houses a year? There are

good reasons why he has chosen what

appears to be a pretty staid,

Conservative budget, and that is

that they are probably unable to get

anything bold through Parliament.

His capital is so low among Tory

MPs. If you have a minority

government, it is tricky.

We have

seen ministers on programmes like

this in the last few weeks putting

in the bids for what they would like

spending on, whether it be payment

for nurses or parliament. Would he

struggled to get something radical

through the Commons?

Big ideas cost

money. That's the problem. Bold

ideas are controversial. In some

ways, Tory MPs are asking their

Chancellor to do the impossible.

Government is already doing

something big and bold, which is

Brexit. That has implications for

how much money is available, how

many risks you want to take with

everything else. What is crucial is

that he demonstrates a reputation

for competence. The reputation that

the Conservative government has for

economic competence, that many

people prefer them to Labour on the

issue of economic competence. The

worst thing he could do is come up

with a big, bold idea that

unravelled quickly. What they

absolutely don't want is to come up

with an exciting idea that falls

apart three days after the budget.

He is under pressure from

Brexiteers, who are suspicious of

him. Does he have to offer them

something?

Part of his problem is he

has to offer so many different

people different things. This is

Philip Hammond trying to be and

dynamic.

It is hard to tell

sometimes.

At least in theoretical

terms. His longer-term difficulty is

that, if you look at the economic

cycle, we are getting to a point

where we are probably overdue, if

you put Brexit to one side, overdue

some kind of correction or downturn,

if you look what has happened to

asset prices globally. What will be

worrying for the Treasury is, just

as everyone is saying we should turn

on the taps and build this or that,

we might be at the top of a cycle,

and the Treasury will want to lose

something in the armoury in terms of

probably growing the deficit if

there are economic difficulties in

the next two years, and then there

is Brexit as well.

It sounds

impossible.

I think so. Talking to

his friends and colleagues over the

last few days, he had to make a

call, which was precisely how much

can I get away with, with my

political capital being as low as it

is, with the mixed problems he had

at the last budget, and a lot of the

party disliking his approach to

Brexit. He is damned if he is,

damned if he doesn't. Universal

Credit, we are expecting a reduction

in the time it takes to wait,

business rates, affected by high

inflation... I think we will see a

problem fixing budget which will

probably do quite a lot of important

spadework in many areas.

We will

pick up on some of this later in the

programme.

Let's speak now to the Conservative

MP Jacob Rees-Mogg, this week

he helpfully launched an alternative

"budget for Brexit" and advised

the Chancellor to be less gloomy

about the consequences

of leaving the EU.

Thank you for joining us. Your

alternative budget is pretty

radical. Almost half corporation

tax, Cap Stamp duty to help the

London market. It seems you are

advocating the opposite from what we

will hear from your Chancellor on

Wednesday.

There are two parts to

the proposals I suggested. One is

that we should show that after we

have left the European Union, the UK

is open to the rest of the world. It

is about opening up to the rest of

the world. Secondly, looking at the

modelling that has been done by the

Treasury and some other forecasters,

which has been so comprehensively

wrong. The forecasts made about what

would happen after Brexit have

turned out to be hopelessly false.

The team at Cardiff University have

done some modelling based on the

classical economic principles and

what happens if you move to free

trade that would be very positive

for the economy.

You are predicting

a Brexit dividend of £135 billion,

which sounds fantastic. Why are you

right, and everybody else, including

the Bank of England and the

Institute for Fiscal Studies, why

are they all wrong?

It depends on

the type of modelling. The modelling

that have been done by the Treasury

have been based on gravity models,

which work on the basis of the

nearness of the market and the size

of the economy you are trading with.

These have been wrong in the past.

They predicted that if we joined the

euro, trade would grow by 300%. That

was then revised down to 200%, but

it is fantasyland. The model I am

working on, by Sir Patrick Minford,

who has a record of getting these

things right. He was right about the

exchange rate mechanism, right about

the euro.

Being right in the past

doesn't mean you are right about the

future. Why do you think the

Treasury will not pick up the same

numbers, if this is so obvious to

you?

I think the Treasury was

humiliated by the errors in its

forecast prior to Brexit, and is

trying to defend its position. The

short-term economic consequences of

a vote to leave was one of the most

dishonest documents to come out of

the Treasury, purely a piece of

political propaganda. They are

wounded by that and sticking to the

same script, rather than looking at

other forecasts and other experts.

You think the governor of the Bank

of England is an enemy of Brexit,

and it sounds like you think the

Treasury is opposed to it. As the

Chancellor fallen under their spell

as well, and been persuaded to be an

enemy of Brexit?

I have admiration

the Chancellor, but George Osborne,

his predecessor, was the architect

of Project Fear. He was too close to

the Bank of England and lost his

independence. That is what needs to

change. It is an opportunity in the

budget for Philip Hammond to show he

is putting aside the Treasury's

mistakes in the past. It is very

encouraging what he is saying this

morning, about a more positive

approach to Brexit.

Lord Lawson has

accused Philip Hammond of being very

close to sabotage on Brexit. He says

we need a can-do man at the Treasury

and not a prophet of doom.

I think

that Philip Hammond is an

exceptionally intelligent man, a

very thoughtful man. It is not a bad

thing to have a Chancellor who is

serious minded and steady, rather

than one who is a showman and uses

the Exchequer to interfere in

absolutely everything.

I have a lot

of confidence in the Chancellor.

When you launched your budget for

Brexit, you said the government has

to deliver the £350 million for the

NHS that was delivered during the

referendum, even though you didn't

think that promise should have been

made. Is that something they now

need to deliver wrong?

It is. This

only happens once we have left.

Politicians have to recognise that

voters don't look at the small print

of electoral policies. If you put

£350 million on the side of a bus

and say it may be available for the

NHS, it is reasonable for people to

think that is a promise. Brexit was

won by the Leave campaign, so it it

is important that they deliver on

that promise. Politicians must keep

faith with voters and deliver on

implied promises, as well as ones

that are set out in detail.

The

Cabinet will move on to talk about

the Brexit bill this week, and we

understand they may need to come up

with more money to satisfy EU

demands. The more money spent on

that is less money available for

things like spending on the NHS. Are

you worried about the size of the

exit bill?

You have your finger on

the important point. The government

will have to choose whether to give

lots of money to the European Union,

or whether to spend money on UK

public services, and that will be

part of the negotiation. On all

these issues, it comes down to

choice is the government makes. I

would encourage the government to

choose our own domestic public

services rather than expensive

schemes in continent or Europe.

Why

are you advocating that the

government should spend up to £2.5

billion on a no deal scenario?

It is important that we are ready to

leave in the event of no deal. If we

left with no deal we would on

current figures still be saving the

remains of 18 billion so we would be

saving 15 and a half billion against

paying for the financial framework.

To show we're ready on day one would

be money well spent and most would

be needed any way. We need to have

new customs arrangements in place

even if it is not for a no deal

situation.

There are suggestions

that the Government might back down

on the idea of putting the time and

date of leaving the EU on the face

of the bill. Would you be Exxon

certained if that was -- concerned

if that was remove prd the bill?

It

is in Article 50, unless Article 50

is extended by the Council of Europe

we leave on 20th March 2019 and it

makes accepts that should be the

same in -- sense that should be in

same in domestic law. But that is a

secondary concern from my point of

view. It is important that we leave

on that date.

Stay there if you

would.

We're joined in the studio

by the former minister

Stephen Hammond.

He's no relation to the Chancellor,

but he is a member

of the Treasury Select Committee

and he's one of the Tory MPs named

as "Brexit mutineers"

by the Daily Telegraph

this week - lucky him.

I'm assured you're no relation to

the Chancellor. Let's just pick up

on what Jacob Rees Mogg was saying.

How important is it to you as a

rebel that the Government does put

the date on.

I agree with Jacob it

is in the Article 50 process, the

key reason it is important is the

negotiations look like they're going

to be tricky and longer than we

expected and it may well be that we

are still negotiating up until March

2019. We could have a short couple

of weeks period of extension. Why do

harm to the economy by falling out

on a precise time? If those

negotiations need to be extended.

They won't go on for more than a

couple of weeks, because there will

be elections in Europe in June 2019

and there is no chance of a new

commission or Parliament dealing

with this. Giving it flexibility and

with this flexibility the government

said it wants flexibility in

negotiations, why give all the

advantage to the other side? Part of

that was evidenced yesterday by

somebody suggesting they will ask

for the Margaret Thatcher rebate to

be suspended. That is as a result of

putting the date on the bill.

You

did not agree with the Brexit

committee and think it is important

that we set the date and time?

I

think it is perfectly reasonable to

set the date and time and I think

these negotiations fill the time

available. The United States and

Australia agreed a free trade deal

between April 2003 and February

2004. These things don't need to be

interm Knabl if both sides want to

agree. I think the British

electorate would be very concerned

if nearly three years after the vote

to leave, we still hadn't left. I

think most people expected that we

would have left by now. The

negotiations realistically to get

through the approval of the European

Parliament and so on need to be

completed by at the end of next

year, going up to the last minute I

don't think is real is tick.

To move

on to talk about a trade deal and

getting that done, the EU need to

agree to move on and we need to

settle the divorce, cabinet are

going to be talking about the amount

that needs to be spent on that,

Stephen what manned, are you happy

for the Government to offer more?

I

hope that the Government will stick

to the Florence speech in terms of

ensuring that we fulfil our

liabilities and obligations. I'm not

clear exactly whether that is 20

billion or 40 billion and I'm not

sure the government is. If part of

the divorce bill is then some

settlement for getting the trade

deal, we will need to examine that

carefully.

Jacob Rees Mogg, is this

that might spark another war in the

party if the cabinet suggest they're

prepared to pay more?

I think we

need to go back to what you said,

that the - the EU said they want us

to settle the money first. The

Government doesn't need to follow

that. They need our money. If we

don't pay any money for the final 21

months of the framework, the EU has

about 20 billion pounds gap in its

finances and it has no legal

requirement to borrow. So it

insolvents or the Germans and the

others pay more. So our position on

money is very strong and we

shouldn't fall into the trap of

thinking just because Mr Barnier

said it it is as if he has received

tablets of stone like Moses, he has

not.

There is a sense that the

Government feels a mo generous offer

would set a good tone, the kind of

approach that Jacob Rees Mogg

suggests would not make for smooth

relations.

It probably wouldn't. But

we have to be clear what we are

paying for and what we are getting.

No one is suggesting we should hand

over money without proper scrutiny.

It may be appropriate to put money

to facilitate international trade to

secure jobs. We have to be careful

about the analysis about what the

scale and size of Brexit dividend is

and the size of payments will be.

You mustn't confuse gross and net

and there is disagreement about some

of the numbers.

On that, Jacob Rees

Mogg in his budget for Brexit

suggests in five years time we would

have a 135 billion Brexit bonus. Do

you think it is real is tick.

He is

using some analysis that has some

flaws. It is predicting a price drop

in the United Kingdom of 10%. Tariff

drops will only be 3 or 4%. It is

predicting huge productivity gains,

the likes of which we have not seen

in 20 years. Thirdly, despite his

view on modellers there is evidence

that they weren't and if you go into

the detail of the analysis, some of

the data is 14 years out of date.

Jacob Rees Mogg, you're being

hopelessly optimistic?

I don't think

that right. I think the fall in

prices comes because you make the

economy more competitive and you

take away tariffs which reduces the

price of food by 20%. That is a big

reduction. Bear in mind that the

biggest tariffs hit food, clothing

and foot wear that, harm the poorest

in society the most. The gains from

productivity come from is in

additional tariffs. Leading to other

saving and further investment I

think the modelling done by the

professor is as good as modelling

can be. That doesn't mean it is

infallible. The failure of gravity

model is well known.

Michael Gove

was accused of auditioning for the

job of Chancellor by using long

words. Do you know any good long

economic words?

I don't think that

we want to get into this type of

business actually. I think all

Conservatives and Steven and I very

much agree on this, want to show as

united a front as we can manage.

There are differences on some

aspects of policy, but in terms of

individuals we want to stand

together and support the best

interests of the government.

Thank

you.

Brexit Secretary David Davis

was in Berlin this week trying

to win the support of business

leaders there for a comprehensive

free trade deal with the EU.

He warned them against putting

'politics above prosperity'

and reportedly got a bit

of a frosty reception.

Well, the former Labour MP

Gisela Stuart was one of the leaders

of the Vote Leave referendum

campaign.

We travelled with Gisela to Germany

to meet the business leaders

she says will help secure a good

trade deal for the UK.

Here's her film.

I was born and brought up

in this part of Germany,

and although I've lived in the UK

for the past 40 years,

and represented the constituency

of Birmingham and Edgbaston for 20

years, my family still live here,

and I've kept many links.

I was chair of Vote Leave,

and together with only a handful

of other Labour MPs,

we campaigned to leave

the European Union because we

thought the country would be

better off outside.

It's hard to remember now, but back

in the 1970s, when we joined

the European Economic Community,

people thought that by joining

the club we would see the kind

of economic miracle Germany

experienced in the '70s back home.

The "Deutsche Wirtschaftswunder"

would come to Britain.

But, of course, it didn't.

Within a few short years

of the devastation of World War II,

Germany had emerged as

the largest economy in Europe.

Germany's extraordinary

success is down to

the pragmatism of its business.

German Mittelstand is family

dominated, forward-thinking,

long-term thinking, reliability,

are very important values.

Changing moods on a political

landscape and changing frameworks

are toxic for our way of doing

business, and we want

that to go away.

German business is not given

to making big political statements

out of step with government policy,

but talk to those in decision-making

positions, and it is clear

that they want to secure a good deal

with the United Kingdom.

BMW employs almost 90,000

people here in Germany,

and exports just under

1 million cars annually.

The UK is a vital market.

What we are really seeking right now

is more clarity, more certainty,

because in our cycle of investment,

cycle of development,

it's about a seven-year or so period

that we look at,

but we are now, of course, starting

to think about what comes next,

and what we need to see now

is what is going to be

the trading relationship,

how are the logistics going to look,

what is going to be

the requirements for people

moving across the continent?

Because all of these things

are important to us today.

And, by the way, they will be just

as important tomorrow.

Berlin is well aware that

if the European Commission

is allowed to put up trade barriers

against Britain, it will be

German business, German consumers

and German employees

who will suffer.

TRANSLATION:

I think it's very

important that we complete

the first phase successfully.

The first phase of the negotiations,

which looks at the financial

consequences of Great Britain

leaving the EU.

And then it's not a question

of punishment payments.

It's about when you are part

of a multilayer, contractual

obligation and you want to leave

that, then of course it takes

a whole lot of obligations

which you have to deal with,

so both sides are satisfied and can

live with the consequences.

It isn't everyone's interests

for the UK to part on good terms.

Of course there was going to be

upset when the UK voted to leave,

but creating uncertainty over

the terms of UK's exit will simply

have a disruptive effect

on exports to UK markets.

Far better to have a sensible,

amicable negotiation that results

both sides being able to trade

together and work

together post-Brexit.

Markus Krall is managing

director of Goetzpartners,

and heads the Financial

Institution Industry Group.

Is it true to say that,

if we negotiate Brexit well,

then a good Brexit can actually

strengthen the United Kingdom,

the European Union and Germany?

It's absolutely true.

I think that this

is about two things.

One, about proving that

free trade is possible

between a European Union that is

smaller and a former member country.

If you don't prove that free

trade is possible there,

then the question becomes,

what is Europe standing for?

Number two is, I also

believe the free trade,

free market and democratic and less

bureaucratic approach that Britain

has chosen as the path

into the future is a role

model for Europe.

The time has come both

for the United Kingdom

and for the EU to be more clear

about what kind of

deal we can achieve.

Both sides need to be bold.

As long as we remain open to free

trade and sensible co-operation,

we can arrive at something that

will benefit both sides.

But one thing's obvious -

if we are an open and free trading

economy, we've got one big

cheerleader on our side,

and that is German business.

That was Gisela Stuart

setting out her case

and we'll be hearing

from the opposite side

of the argument in the coming weeks.

Gisela Stuart joins us in the studio

now, as does Alastair Campbell.

He used to work for Tony Blair

in Number 10, set up

the New European Newspaper

to campaign against Brexit,

and is so pro-European that at this

year's Labour conference

he was heard playing Ode

to Joy on the bagpipes.

Welcome both of you.

We will start with your point in the

film, that you think the German

business once the EU to offer the UK

a generous deal because it is in

their interests, yet the president

of the German equivalent of the CBI

said that defending the single

market must be the priority for the

EU, and another says that the

cohesion of the remaining member

states remains the highest priority.

The president of the CBI just after

the referendum said that it would be

in nobody 's interest to introduce

tariffs and trade barriers. On the

UK side, I don't think there's a

full understanding that economic

interests are incredibly important,

that they are trying to cover

economic interests on the cohesion

of the 27. I think different

economic interests will raise the

head of different countries. The

German auto industry is as important

as the financial sector is here. The

banking crisis is far from over, but

the big riffs which were going on is

that the E U is losing its second

biggest net contributor. Countries

like Germany want a deal with the UK

that is a free open market. There

are other tensions in the EU that

wants to become more protectionist,

and that is a bad thing.

Looking at

the film there with the Jacob

Rees-Mogg interview. No matter what

side of leave you are, it is

delusional and all driven by wishful

thinking. You could find a

businessman who says Brexit will be

good for Germany. The vast bulk of

British businesses think this is a

disaster, as do the vast bulk of

European businesses. One of the

delusions on which they ran their

campaign is the idea that they need

us more than we need them. That is

not true.

Be you self about £80

billion more in goods and services

into the UK than we do to them, and

Germany has one of the biggest

deficits. It is in their interest.

Of course it is, but it is a myth

that they need us more than we need

them. The damage that will be done

to us, even with a good deal. Let's

be frank, where these negotiations

are, Theresa May is either going to

end up with a bad deal and dumber or

no Deal. A bad deal is bad, and a no

deal is a catastrophe.

You are

setting up ideas that which were not

there to begin with and knocking

them down. Delusional.

35 billion,

the Brexit bonus.

If we had a

referendum, it was a democratic

decision. I know you don't like it

and that a lot of business would

have preferred to stay with the

status quo. We have had the

referendum. Undermining political

institutions is in no one's

interests. It is functioning

democracies which lead to economic

stability.

Theresa May fought an

election Inc on a hard Brexit that

was rejected.

As we heard from BMW,

there is uncertainty for business.

There will be elections, European

elections, in 2019. There will be a

change of the Commission and the

parliament. We have a narrow window

to implement the mandate for the

referendum which Parliament voted

for. So rather than you undermining

this country, why don't you work

together to get the best deal?

Because we totally disagree.

You

don't want a good deal?

I'm in

favour of a good deal, and I could

give them some advice as to how they

get a good deal. First, you have a

cabinet that has an agreed strategy.

18 months in, they don't have that.

I am not undermining a deal. I am

continuing to pose questions about

what they are trying to do and how

they are trying to do it. This is

democracy. Democracy is the ability

for Parliament, which is not doing

its job properly, and the public, to

keep scrutinising, and if they want

to change their mind, having the

right to do that.

You were trying to

encourage the Taoiseach yesterday to

play hardball with the UK.

I am on

the side of the UK, and I am worried

that if we go down the path that we

are being taken down, and Theresa

May and Boris Johnson and the rest

of them, this shambolic path, we are

going to do fundamental, lasting

damage to the country we love. I

don't care about the Civil Aviation

Authority. I care about Britain. --

I don't care about the European

Union. If every lorry going into the

UK today was stopped for just two

minutes, we would create an instant

17 mile traffic jam. These people

just don't care...

I am not these

people! Let us not conflate... You

either decide that you are

implementing a democratic decision

of a referendum that was called and

over 17 million voted.

You will not

stop me debating it. Just as Nigel

Farage...

Stop talking about Nigel

Farrell Raj. Vote Leave was not

Nigel Farage. There is no desire in

Germany to punish the United

Kingdom.

They are behaving

reasonably.

There is a battle of

protectionism and free market going

on. If we implement this properly,

give businesses the kind of

incentives they want, we can get a

good deal. So you want a bad deal?

You are driven by wishful thinking.

Gisela Stuart, you are saying that

business will intervene to prevent

things like tariffs being put in

place? They are leaving it a bit

late to put pressure on.

You will

find that business is laying out the

kind of things they need to get

those deals. I can find as much

fault with the speed of the

progress, but what I really do

resent is that you are actually

encouraging other countries to

undermine...

Know I am not! I spoke

out in support of the Irish

Taoiseach because I spent a lot of

time with Tony Blair and his team on

the Good Friday Agreement. The

people who are driving this hard

Brexit without thinking it through,

still no answer on how you do Brexit

in our island without a hard border.

I think the Irish Taoiseach is right

to call out the government on the

incompetence and the fact they have

not thought it through.

You accept

the result of the referendum and the

fact that we will be leaving the EU?

I accept the result of the

referendum, but I do not accept that

the country will definitely leave,

because the country is entitled to

change its mind. As the chaos and

costs mount, the public is entitled

to change its mind and will change

its mind.

There is no evidence at

the moment.

Come out with me!

Allow

me to finish the sentence. There is

a changing of mind happening, a

crystallisation. Unlike you, I have

fought five elections and I have won

five elections. I have probably

spoken to more people like you.

You

may do, I'm just saying, come out on

the road with me...

40% of the

population in the middle just want

us to get on with it. What that film

showed is that if you want to make

it a self-fulfilling prophecy that

it's a disaster, which I don't. I

want to implement a deal that is

good for British jobs. The rest of

the world is changing in terms of

technology. Currently, Germany

hasn't even got a government, and

nobody is laughing about that.

And

they are stable without a

government!

Let's leave it there.

It's coming up to 11.40,

you're watching the Sunday Politics.

Coming up on the programme,

we'll be looking at the latest

opinion polls and we'll bring

you the results of our moodbox

asking whether Phllip Hammond

or John McDonnell should be running

the economy.

Hello.

Welcome to the Sunday

Politics in the Midlands.

You can tell there's

a Budget coming up.

A steady procession of local MPs,

from opposing parties,

lining up together to tell

the Chancellor what should

be in it for us here.

The Midland Metro.

The Police.

There's a lengthening

wish-list of deserving cases.

But who should pay?

How?

And how much?

That's what I'll be asking

Neena Gill, Labour MEP

for the West Midlands,

And Nadhim Zahawi, Conservative MP

for Stratford-on-Avon.

And I'll also be asking the elected

"Metro Mayor" Andy Street

if he thinks the Government's

going cool on devolution,

and on moving Channel 4

Television out of London.

But we begin with a mutiny -

not exactly on the high seas.

But this is how the Daily Telegraph

reported the rebellion by 15

Conservative MPs at the start

of the debate on the

European Union Withdrawal Bill.

They're against the Government's

proposal to have the exact moment

when Britain leaves the EU

written into law.

Stafford's MP Jeremy Lefroy is one

of the so-called Tory mutineers

on the receiving end of what some

of them call "bullying tactics".

Are they putting a marker down for

further confrontations, I wonder?

On the other side of the Tory

divide, one veteran Eurosceptic,

for so long a rebel himself,

now finds himself

supporting the Government.

We have just had Remembrance Day.

I just simply want people to reflect

on the fact that, for one moment,

they might just recall the fact

that those millions of people

who died in both world

wars died for a reason -

it was to do with sustaining the

freedom and democracy of this House.

Indeed, like Bill Cash, Nadhim

Zahawi, you campaign for a leave

vote in the referendum. Can you

appreciate how people like Jeremy

Lefroy and the others support this

campaign of bullying?

I campaign for

Leave and in any negotiations there

is always rhetoric and posturing.

Your colleagues in the media,

especially the print media, see

themselves on the decline, they like

the sensationalism. I don't agree

with those headlines, I've been on

Day on record to say that was unwise

and wrong to print that headline.

The ministers during that debate

you've just showed a clip from

actually came out and canned and

that sort of language of mutiny on

anyone. I was listening very

carefully to Mike colleagues, Jeremy

Lefroy and others who are very

serious parliamentarians,

representing their constituents,

actually scrutinising legislation.

That is the job of Parliament. That

is not in any way division or trying

to do the wrong thing. You do the

right thing to scrutinise

legislation, that's what our

constituents expect from us. We may

take different views but it is

completely wrong for them to be

bullied in any way or be put off

from doing their job properly.

Alan

Patterson, a fellow Brexiteer, he

says, what's the problem? MPs

including labour MPs voted for

Article 50 to be triggered and it

specifies a clear timetable.

We have

a parliamentary democracy and we

must actually respect the right of

their was MPs to be able to question

and to be able to put forward those

views of either their constituents

or their own. I'm very concerned

about the way our society now seems

to be closing down on there being

any kind of dissent or to be able to

say...

There's apparently plenty of

dissent in your party because we see

on the front pages of the mail on

Sunday reports of a heated argument

involving the MP for

Newcastle-under-Lyme, who Labour are

investigating. He denies it but the

timing at the end of the Brexit

debate on Tuesday night suggests

that divisions, including in your

Shadow Cabinet.

I would say it

Labour has a plan and I can't

comment on Paul Farrelly's situation

because I don't know anything about

it. I understand he's denying it,

but the party's investigating. Until

that's done, I can't really comment.

We have a clear line that we will

negotiate, we will have Brexit, but

we would be much more clear about

what we want. The problem we have

with Brexit is that we have no

strategy and no recognition that we

are in a lose lose situation.

We'll

see how it pans out. We have to

leave this at the moment.

Coming six months into the first

term in office of the directly

elected Midlands "Metro Mayor",

Wednesday's Budget is inevitably

seen as an important test.

Is the Government in general -

and the Treasury in particular -

delivering on that "Devolution

Revolution" originally

promised by George Osborne?

From the Mayor himself, we've seen

a relentless flurry of activity.

Our aptly named political reporter,

Rob Mayor, asks how much has

actually been achieved.

His report has flash

photography from the start.

Street, Andy, the Conservative Party

candidate, is duly elected of Mayor

of the West Midlands Combined

Authority.

It's been a busy six months

for West Midlands mayor Andy Street

since that surprise election win

for the Conservatives in May.

On a visit to Finland earlier this

month, he saw a project which has

seen homelessness cut by 43%.

Altogether, I think,

like, 500 apartments.

And some people, they

need a lot of care.

He's hoping the cash to deliver it

here will form part of a second

devolution deal for his region.

More news on that expected

in the Budget on Wednesday.

But with the government spending

so much time on Brexit,

some say promises of extra money

which was supposed to come

with an elected mayor

have not been kept.

There is a general feeling

that the appetite for devolution's

not as strong as it was under

the previous coalition government,

driven by Osborne -

he handled the purse strings,

he could drive things

forward financially.

It's not quite there

with this government,

so it makes the battle harder,

but we have the determination.

Top of the devolution Christmas list

is more money for public transport

and for adult education,

but the West Midlands mayor

Andy Street says it's extremely

difficult to get any certainty

on what the next devolution

deal will look like.

So is this all a sign

that the government's commitment

to devolution is running

out of steam?

The government is now spinning more

plates than any government's

had in living memory,

and one of them is the mighty

cauldron of Brexit and so it's not

surprising that the government

itself may be uncertain

about what it's going to do,

and this project may have just

dropped down the agenda

a little bit.

It could all have a big impact

on Mayor Street's manifesto promises

of 25,000 new homes,

zero youth unemployment,

and implementing those measures

to tackle homelessness.

At a summit earlier this month,

England's regional mayors called

for more control over taxes instead

of relying on government hand-outs.

But could that be a hard

sell with voters?

My local councillor's literally

got his own council office

at Sutton Coldfield and I don't feel

that the money's being spent wisely,

and that's been devolved.

As long as it's spent in your area.

We come from the Black Country,

so it could do with a bit

of cash spent on it.

Probably perhaps trust local

politicians more than national ones

because they should have their ear

to the ground in terms

of what people want locally.

I still say I wouldn't

want to pay any more.

I think I pay enough.

The Prime Minister has said she's

absolutely committed to devolution.

We'll get a strong sense of just how

committed on Wednesday.

Rob Mayor.

So is the Government going cool

on regional devolution?

We'll know soon enough.

For months we've been hearing

confident predictions that

Wednesday's Budget would deliver

a second "Devo Deal"

for the Midlands.

Nadhim Zahawi is one of 30 MPs,

from both main parties,

who've signed a very pointed letter

to Philip Hammond.

Extending the Midland Metro

to Brierley Hill, devolving powers

over skills, supporting automotive

and advanced digital industries,

and piloting public sector projects

on homelessness and mental health.

These, they say, are among the key

tests of whether or not

the Government remains committed.

When I caught up with Andy Street

at the Skills Show in the NEC,

I asked him if devolved local

tax-raising powers were

still on the agenda.

To be really honest with you,

Patrick, it is slow progress.

I am expecting some further...

There's technical points, really,

about the borrowing powers

of the combined authorities,

things like that, next week.

But in terms of, is there a real

sea change to anything

like a local income tax,

local retention of VAT?

That is just not on the

agenda at the moment.

So what, then, can we

expect in the Budget?

We are expecting, I think,

a good amount of good news

for the West Midlands next week.

We've been lobbying for that and I'm

waiting to see the outcomes.

I don't know yet, to

be absolutely clear.

But we've lobbied very hard

for the extension of the Metro

through the Black Country.

That's a substantial sum of money -

many hundreds of millions of pounds.

People have been talking

about it for 12 years.

I want us to absolutely get final

confirmation because that would be

a real opportunity for regeneration

through the Black Country there.

I'm also looking forward

to investment and support for some

of our leading industries.

Autonomous vehicles,

electric vehicle production,

because we've said those

new frontiers need to be made

here in the West Midlands.

Isn't the truth in all this

that the Treasury, which some people

think are sort of control freaks,

and they're actually

very reluctant to let go

of the purse strings -

devolution or not?

I think what it indicates

is that the commitment

to devolution is still there,

but it's not perhaps moving as fast

as we hoped maybe two,

three, four years ago,

but we are making steady progress

and what we will see next week

is considerable investment

in the West Midlands,

or I believe we will see next week.

And, actually, some of those points

about how we are able to raise

new cash ourselves in the future.

It's not going to be tax-raising,

but it'll be other methods

that we can actually take more

control of our own

financial futures.

I am expecting that

still to be there.

You very much nailed your colours

to the relocation of Channel 4

Television to the West Midlands,

but I'm hearing suggestions that

senior ministers have been cooling

off this whole thing and that

Channel 4 executives

are more confident than ever

that they won't actually have

to leave London at all.

There is no new news

on this, Patrick.

I wish there was, and of course

I would tell you if there was,

but the situation we've had is we've

done our consultation, we have

nailed the West Midlands colours

very firmly to a major relocation.

We've actually been waiting

for the new chief executive

of Channel 4 to come in and then

the government to start the process.

I'm absolutely clear, though,

we've put a good bid forward,

supported by the creative

industries, political support

across the spectrum,

and I am confident that,

if not a full relocation,

there will certainly be

a substantial relocation

out of London.

It seems to me, Nadhim is the thing

about that letter is he felt the

need to write it at all. It is a

tacit admission that the government

will call on devolution. Surely

those contents really, until

recently, would be seen as a

statement of the obvious.

Let's wait

and see what is on the Budget on

Wednesday. We have a news over the

weekend, the Chancellor is in the

region tomorrow trying out an

autonomous car. He's already talking

about further investment in electric

infrastructure charging points and

that can only be good for our region

in terms of manufacturing and the

development required in electric

cars and autonomous vehicles, as

well, which the Mayo just about. --

which the Neena talked about. Andy

Street is a really big voice for our

region and when he asked, we all

signed the letter.

He's having to

put local tax raising powers on the

back burner. He admitted it.

The

progress he wants to make is to make

sure the agenda he sets out, making

sure there is no youth unemployment

scored 25,000 homes, making sure the

homeless agenda he stood on actually

delivers. That can only be a good

thing. The more decisions that

brought locally, the people of

Stratford-upon-Avon, my

constituency, can interact with me.

There are hints of investment in the

Metro, the Digital economy,

automotive. Much in the budget for

you to welcome, surely.

I totally

support the region should get more

powers and we should have more

funding. Clearly, the region is in

crisis because we've had so many

cutbacks from this government and

even in your area, Warwickshire,

there's been real cutbacks in

schools and nursery provisions which

are impacting our economy in the

long term. I would say about Andy

Street, he has been talking up a

lot. Where is the action? In six

months, what has he actually

delivered? One of the things he said

is that he was going to tackle

homelessness and yet we look at

homelessness, it has increased.

10,000 people who are homeless in

Birmingham alone.

A tour of the

studios this morning, talking about

300,000 houses per year.

I think

Andy Street, rather than going to

Finland, should go and speak to

Whitehall and try and make sure that

that money is addressed when we are

facing a cold winter. Let's see what

comes out.

Andy is talking to

Whitehall. He was very much part of

the Metro mayors who came down and

met Whitehall. The government is

listening, it is open-minded about

devolution. Let's wait and see what

happens. Andy is really delivering

for our region.

I think you're

allowed to question as to what is

actually being delivered for the

region. I'm not seeing any evidence.

When I see homeless people now with

the cold winter outside, 10,000

people sleeping outside should be of

concern. We can't wait months for

them to find shelter. They need to

be addressed now. Under Labour's

what we got rid of the homeless...

It was rejected for billions of

borrowing to go into housing.

He

committed to 300,000 which was an

emblematic call.

You've not

delivered the 300,000. You only

delivered 150000 and...

You can't

have a discussion talking across

people.

You can't throw figures that

are not being delivered.

We have to

move on.

Another subject of concern bringing

MPs from opposing parties together

in common cause is the continuing

squeeze on police budgets.

Time was when ministers could say

that, even while savings

were being introduced,

crime was falling.

Now, though, recorded

crime is rising again,

and the Government is being pressed

to allow our biggest

local force an increase

in the money allocated to it,

over and above the council tax.

That's according to

a leaked document seen

by Kathryn Stanczyszyn.

Police on the streets

of the West Midlands,

but there's now fewer of them

than at any time in

the force's history.

The Police and Crime Commissioner

says they need an extra £22 million

just to stand still next year,

and the government needs to act.

There's cross-party accord on this

now and I think the government need

to recognise that if we don't get

that proper funding in place,

then we're putting people

seriously at risk.

What we need is consistent long-term

funding so we can actually pay

for the police we need to protect

the people in our area.

Since 2010, West Midlands Police has

cut 2,000 officers -

that's a 27% reduction.

It comes as figures show that,

in the last year, sexual

offences rose by 25%,

child sexual exploitation by 47%

and gun crime by 15%.

Last week, a cross-party group

of MPs from the region lobbied

the police Minister,

Nick Hurd.

The point we made in the meeting

is that the West Midlands

is one of five hotspots

in the country for terrorism.

It needs extra resources to tackle

new types of crime and I felt we had

a sympathetic hearing.

With more than 80% of funding

for the forces coming

from Whitehall, local fundraising

options are limited.

But a leaked Budget document

suggests that the government may

allow the portion of council tax

which funds the police to rise

by up to £10 next year.

There have also been calls

for West Midlands Police to spend

some of the £106 million it

currently holds in its reserves.

Isn't the key point in all this that

the financial pressure that the

government has applied to the police

service since it came into office

has delivered a lot of those

partnerships and efficiencies? We

seemed Warwickshire and West Messier

working closely together, to the

benefit of the police.

I think it is

of real concern that our police are

being cut, as David Jamieson has

indicated. It is important that we

have more police on, especially when

you've got an economy that's

downward spiralling. You'll always

find that police are needed, crime

goes up even more so. There doesn't

appear to be any strategy. It's just

basically freeing everything and we

need to make sure the funding is

there. We cannot produce police if

the money isn't there. The Tory

government is in chaos. There is no

strategy on economy or police.

...

Who's worried about the West

Midlands being a potential terrorist

hotspot. You're own Chief Constable

is worried about what he says is a

£20 million additional cut over four

years, not the 13 the government

talks about in Warwickshire.

I have

represented from our Chief Constable

and our police and crime commission.

I have made representations to Nick

Hurd, and Amber Road. It is

important that we make sure we get

this right and I'm lobbying to make

sure they are listened to. I think

it is good to examine whether the

preset can be flexed to allow us on

this. But when Nina is -- where

Neena is wrong, we have to make sure

we deliver the public services which

people are asking us to do,

including good policing. It has led

to the cooperation between

Warwickshire and West Neena.

We have

devalued pound, our economy is

growing more slowly than anywhere in

the EU and all indication that it's

going to get worse rather than

better.

If I can bring you back to

the question of the police.

Because

they're not managing the economy

well means there isn't enough money

to go around because there are so

many demands on that money. We've

discussed devolution earlier, the

housing problem. It is quite clear

that this Brexit issue, where there

is no strategy, all the statements

that were made that we were going to

be better off economically... None

of that is coming true so we're

actually worse off and everything is

being cut. I think it's really

imported...

Time is tight. Do you

think the Chancellor is listening to

this argument about the police on

Wednesday?

The Home Secretary is

listening and I hope the Chancellor

is, as well.

Let's leave it there

for the moment.

Let's remind ourselves of some more

of the political developments

making the news here over

the past few days.

Our round up in 60 seconds is

brought to us today by Sarah Bishop.

The families of the Birmingham pub

bombing victims have been refused

legal aid to challenge a ruling that

suspects shouldn't be

named at a new inquest.

The Ministry of Justice said the bid

doesn't meet its criteria.

The Transport Secretary said

the Midlands can expect investment

in public transport,

skills and jobs in the Budget.

Chris Grayling dropped

the hints on a visit

to the Skills Show at the NEC.

The so-called "homes for a pound"

scheme has been extended

by the council in Stoke-on-Trent.

The scheme allows home buyers

to apply for cost loans

to improve delapidated houses

in run-down areas.

You know, at 50-odd,

who wants to take on a mortgage?

You don't.

So we've got the pound house

and £298 a month is what we pay back

for the 30,000 loan.

Half a million subsidised bus

services in Staffordshire

are being cut.

The council says it's

just 3% of all journies.

The council says it's

just 3% of all journeys.

And car-tax evasion has tripled

since paper tax discs were scrapped,

and it's worse in the West Midlands

than anywhere else.

Forget the Paradise papers, we got

our own story of tax evasion is on

the streets. Do you think it was a

mistake to get rid of the tax discs?

The mistake clearly is that you

haven't put in place proper

mechanisms to monitor it. We managed

to do it with TV licence quite

effectively. Surely the government

should have put a structure in place

to make sure that it is managed

properly.

Introducing new technology

is a good thing. Anyone evading

their car tax, I think, needs to

think twice because as with any

technology, as it gets better, it

becomes almost impossible to avoid

paying it. If you're not paying it,

my advice is go and pay it or you

will be in trouble. Technology is

good and technology advance is good.

The government has responsibility to

make sure it when it introduces

things that it is properly managed

and implemented.

Like the European

Union?

It is very well managed. This

government, we have the Uighurs

government...

At they carry on the

discussion...

on Wednesday, we'll know exactly

what Philip Hammond's briefcase has

in store for us all here.

Housing?

Hospitals?

Transport?

All taxing questions of course.

I'll be reporting, blogging

and tweeting from Westminster

throughout the day, including

on Midlands Today at 1.30

and 6.30, here on BBC One.

This, though, is where

we rejoin Sarah Smith.

Philip Hammond will deliver his

Budget on Wednesday -

he's moved it to the Autumn

if you remember - and he'll be

hoping it can help re-define

the Government in the eyes

of the public.

But when it comes to

the economy, do people trust

the Conservatives, or Labour?

Here's Ellie Price

with the moodbox.

MUSIC: The Road to Nowhere

by Talking Heads.

All eyes will be on the Chancellor

this week as we find out

what he has been cooking

up in his Budget.

So we have pulled off the A1

near Peterborough to ask people here

who they trust with the economy -

is it the Chancellor,

Philip Hammond, or is it

Labour's John McDonnell?

No 7.

Which one's Tory?

I voted Conservative

for the last two

elections, don't feel very confident

now, so I'm going to swap.

If I said to you which

of these characters

would you trust with the economy,

what would you say?

The one who's currently

running it, because they

seem to be bringing

the deficit down.

Labour.

Why?

Because I'm an NHS worker.

For me, it's just about

spending, public spending.

Labour always overspend.

John McDonnell, I think

capitalism as we know it is tanked

and I think we need

a radical re-think.

Broken his egg, who do you trust

more on the economy?

No one.

Why?

Because they never come up trumps

with anything that they

reckon they're going to do.

If I had to make you

choose one of them?

The man that's there, Hammond.

I wouldn't trust

Philip Hammond with a

bag of marbles or a plastic ball!

Hello, Bob.

Oh, hello.

Who do you trust

more on the economy?

Oh, the Conservatives.

Do you?

Why's that?

I just think they're better

for the small businessman.

We need a Maggie or

a Winston Churchill,

somebody in there with

balls to say, right,

that's the direction

we are

going in, that's what

we are going to do.

I've got balls!

What are you doing?

Putting balls in holes

by the look of it!

I suppose the lesser of the two

evils is anything but Tory,

but I say that without a great

deal of conviction.

Having grown up in the '70s

with all the rubbish on the

streets, the strikes, the unions.

Re-nationalisation and they're

going to spend a lot of money

and increase taxes and it will pull

the country down.

I've seen an awful loft of all-day

breakfasts today, but it

is clearing up time here

at the diner and time

to reveal the Moodbox.

Take it away, Tim.

As you can say it was

a close-run thing, but

like any fiscally responsible

Chancellor, I've done my maths and

counted and Philip Hammond got six

more votes than John McDonnell.

Oh, chip, thank you very much!

That was Ellie and the entirely

unscientific Moodbox,

at the Stibbington diner near

Peterborough.

But for a slightly more scientific

understanding of how the public view

the parties on this and other

issues, let's have a look

at some recent polling.

Here's where the Conservatives

and Labour stood on the economy back

when the Prime Minister called

the snap election in April,

when the Conservatives had a big

lead, as they did in many

other areas.

The most recent poll by the same

company reckoned Labour had narrowed

the gap significantly,

as they have in other areas,

although they're still 10 points

behind the Tories on this issue.

And there was another survey much

discussed at Westminster this week,

showing that while the gap

between Theresa May

and Jeremy Corbyn has narrowed

drastically since that pre-election

period, Mrs May is,

despite her many problems,

still pretty much level-pegging

in polling terms or

even slightly ahead.

And when it comes to how

people intend to vote

while the Tories are behind,

there's no sign of a

big Labour lead yet.

Tony Blair thinks that,

given the current "mess"

inside the Government,

Jeremy Corbyn's party should be

10 or 15 points ahead.

Well, many in Labour will find it

easy to dismiss both Tony Blair

and the opinion polls, as they both

called the last election entirely

wrong, so what if anything do

these polls tell us?

Let's turn to our expert panel.

Labour are now eight points on the

economy, according to a poll. Why is

there a gap between Labour and the

Tories?

There seems to be a

deep-seated reservation in the minds

of many voters. They look at Jeremy

Corbyn and John McDonnell and

imagine them in charge of the

country, the finances, national

security, and think... It is

unfashionable to point out in many

circles that Labour did not win the

last election, and it didn't win it

for that kind of reason. Jeremy

Corbyn is very good at attracting

and inspiring young people and

people who had not voted before. We

underestimated his capacity to do

that. But he wasn't great at turning

Tories to Labour, or sealing off

those final reservations. The

government have had a shambolic few

weeks. We are tripping over

resigning a cabinet ministers. They

are fighting like ferrets. A lot of

people are having a really tough

time and looking at the government

to help them, and are unimpressed

with what they see. But there seems

to be a final fence that Corbyn does

not seem to be able to get over.

Isn't Tony Blair right, that Labour

should be 15 or 20 points ahead?

I

think he's completely wrong, and is

revealing he is out of date. I think

Labour are in a really good

position. If you look at what they

have achieved in the last year,

going into Christmas 2016, Corbyn

had just managed to avoid, had to

re-fight Labour leadership contest.

They were 20 points behind. Theresa

May was at the top of her game.

Through the general election and

beyond it, they have continued to

build their movement. They are very

effective on social media. I think

they are in a strong position, and

they need about 60 seats to win the

next general election. They will

probably start with 25 of those. The

fact that they are closing the gap

on the economy suggests that a lot

of voters are now giving them a

chance or a hearing, which they

certainly were not getting a year

ago. I think they have done very

well.

Can they be confident with a

slim lead against the government?

I

am slightly more with Tony Blair

than with Iain. This goes back to

that very general election result. A

huge turnout for Labour for Jeremy

Corbyn. If you asked that same 40%

of people today, do you want Jeremy

Corbyn to be Prime Minister? Where

you really voting for Jeremy Corbyn

to lead the British governmentanswer

is no, because Theresa May still,

despite the fact she is presiding

over a shambolic cabinet, she has

the most support for Prime Minister.

The last general election may have

just been a giant by-election,

because everyone was so short that

Theresa May would get in.

The

Chancellor Philip Hammond gave

Labour a bit of a gift, when he

said, there were not any unemployed