02/12/2012 Sunday Politics West

Sunday Politics In The West... She was raped by a convicted murderer

out on parole. Now he could be released again. Why does a life

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2132 seconds

On Sunday Politics in the West this week, we talked to a week victim

that says the Government is putting the rights of criminals above that

of victims. Helen Stockford was held at knifepoint in her home by a

man that had been convicted of murder. She wants him to get a life

sentence but her appeal has been turned down by the Government. We

talked in her later. First, our guests this morning. Charlotte

Leslie, Conservative MP for Bristol and for Labour, Roger Berry, a

former MP and local councillor. The new mayor of Bristol went to meet

the bigwigs in London. But he was not shown the red carpet. Far from

meeting the Prime Minister, he was left with ministers that few people

had ever heard of. The Government had signalled that the mayor would

have had the same status as a Cabinet Minister. Is this a sign of

things to come, Charlotte? It has been quite a busy week. I think

George had settled in and it was maybe a busy week with Lord

Leveson's report going on. But I am delighted we have got a Mayer and I

am delighted it is George and I hope we can put politics aside and

get behind him. You are a veteran of local politics. Do you think

George Ferguson has got the status of a Secretary of State or is that

a fantasy? I think that is a fantasy but time will tell. We do

not know what George can deliver and what powers he will have and

what his budget will be. We have got substantial cuts that might be

coming forward. It is early to judge. But everybody of good will,

however they voted in the election or if they did not vote, they want

the best for Bristol. We have to pull together in order to put

Bristol on the map. We can talk about the Labour Party attitude

later. It is 70 years since the foundations were laid for the

welfare system. It is undergoing its biggest ever change. Next year,

a large array of benefits will be in rolled into an all accompanying

benefit, the Universal credit. Also replaced, the Disability Living

Allowance. These changes are causing alarm among many disabled

people. They protested in Bristol and across the land but it did not

stop the Government welfare reforms passing into legislation. There is

great worry about what is ahead. have received care from social

services. I am permanently anxious that might care will be slashed.

Why are they making it harder to claim the money? It is main -- mean

and stealing from disabled people. They will find out what it means in

months. The changes start next April when the Disability Living

Allowance is replaced by a personal independence payment. From October,

are more changes. Child tax benefit, housing benefit, support allowance,

income support and working tax credit will all be replaced by the

Universal Credit, which will be phased in in four years. The prison

benefits system costs �200 billion. The aim of the new scheme is to

encourage more people into jobs. That will ultimately it is hoped

bring down the welfare Bill. This man has got epilepsy and Asperger's

syndrome. A self-employed broadcaster and a web designer, he

gets some benefits. He said most like him want to work but

politicians instead highlight the few. It makes me really angry about

what the Government says and the words they have used, such as

scroungers. They are saying everybody must work. They are not

considering people that cannot work because of disability. That

frustrates me. He knows his disability is not as obvious as

many. But benefits are supposed to overcome problems, like not being

able to drive. I must use public transport to travel around the UK.

I am having a bit of a subsidy allowing me to get to work. He does

not know what help he will get under the new system. Very few do.

But there is a concern that many that need help will be left behind

Roger, you have campaigned for disability rights for many years.

Are disabled people write to be worried they could lose benefits?

The disability allowance is one benefit mentioned. The Government

after the election plans to cut that by 20 %. We will have

substantial cuts. We have got cuts for people on employment support

allowance and incapacity benefit. And the number of people entitled

to that has been cut back. We have got a suggestion that disabled

people are bearing the brunt of the welfare benefit cuts. The numbers

claiming are now future. It has gone up by 30% in the past few

years. -- are now massive. Do not forget, in 1974, many women were

not entitled to claim that benefit. 3.2 million people are claiming

benefit. Not on incapacity benefit. We have got other disability

benefits. The entitlement has been improved over the years. Under the

Conservatives and under the Labour government, it has increased. In

civilised society, people for example that are unable to work and

require additional support for the costs of going to work, the

benefits system has been improved. Charlotte, whatever the causes of

this recession that we have been going through, the vulnerable did

not cause it. Why is the Government appearing to target them? First, I

can see that some people with disabilities are worried and afraid

and my heart goes out to them. But the Government is protecting

spending of 12.6 bn on disability. The problem is that it has not been

targeted properly and vulnerable people that need a benefit have not

been getting it. Some people that did not quite need that support

have. Much has been overpaid and 190 million has been underpaid and

many people should be getting that benefit. They did realise these are

needed sorting out in 1997 but they backtracked and in 2011, Liam Burns

said the same thing. Some people have said that families could lose

�58 per week. We must focus on the people that need it most.

Assessments must take place sensitively. It's the other issue

raised as well is helping disabled people. That is essential. We have

got all sorts of mental health implications. There are many people

in work, disabled people, that rely upon allowance to get to work.

Disability Living Allowance is not an out-of-work benefit. You cannot

say, we will cut that and it will be an incentive to work. It will do

the opposite. It's many -- many people in the Paralympics said

without that support, they would not have been able to... But we do

need to target it better. This is the undeserving poor argument.

you accept... The announcement in 2010 was to put �2 billion of

disability benefit. That is what has happened since then. We must

leave if there. A Bristol mother that was raped by a convicted

murderer has had her appeal to keep him in prison for life rejected.

Kenneth Shirley was -- he was convicted but released on parole

after just 16 years. He went on to rape two more women including Helen

Stockford. She said the Government is putting the right bits of

offenders be on victims. -- writes. He broke into Helen Stockford's

home. He held her prisoner for three and a half hours and raped

her. It was absolutely horrendous. The only thing that kept me going,

I just kept thinking, Oh my God I have got to get into that a grand

and pick my children up. She said she lives in fear. She finds it

difficult leaving the House and constantly checks the doors and

windows are locked. I feel I have lost everything and the emotional

impact has been awful. I cannot come to terms with what he has done.

It was in these flats in Cardiff when he was a teenager that he

murdered a 67-year-old woman. He was released by the Parole Board

after 16 years. He went on to break Helen and another woman in violent

attacks. -- rape. He has been given 23 like sentences but the minimum

term is 16 years and he could again be released on parole. The judge

said he will probably spend the rest of his life behind bars. Helen

thinks life should mean life and she has been supported by her MP.

Be judged as look at the circumstances and has come to a

conclusion that many people would find astonishing. We are talking

about a murderer let out on parole and he has been given a second

chance and he has not taken advantage and I think a full life

sentence is the proper response. She has been campaigning for

changes. I have been to everyone. Nobody out there has not been

contacted. I am running out of people. I would like David Cameron

to acknowledge me now and Chris Grayling. Her latest appeal was to

the Attorney General. It was rejected. He said that he did not

feel it was unduly lenient. There will be one day when I am going to

be notified by my liaison officer to say that he is coming up warm

parole. It is your time to write a -- on parole. It is your time to

write a statement but I did not think I should have to do that. I

want to put this behind me. Outside Bristol Crown Court three years ago,

Helen Stockford waved a right to anonymity to campaign for changes

to the justice system. We took our concerns to Downing Street and the

Ministry for justice. They declined the request for an interview but

the request for an interview but they said that the decision to

In Bristol this week, the white ribbon was used in campaigning to

reduce violence Against Women. Charities are concerned government

cuts will leave are the victims without help. They said this story

is in danger of being repeated the politicians do not listen. We are

seeing cuts all over the country. This woman has been terribly let

down. She should have been listened to. If he deserves that many

sentences it stands to reason that he should be given a whole life

tariff. He needs to sit down with the victim and start listening, the

Prime Minister, to help make changes. She helps other victims

now to come to terms with their ordeals. She is head in one day she

will get the changes she has been campaigning for. If -- she is

I am joined by a representative from the Bristol Law Society. And

by Helen Stockford. How much has that changed your life? Absolutely

everything. I cannot begin to say how it has changed. I think every

day, it is like a terrible experience. He has been told that

he has got 23 life sentences? altogether. He has been told he has

to served 16 years. And then he is up on parole. I but it is not

likely he will be allowed out? it is possible. You want somebody

to say you have committed 25 -- you have got 25 life sentences and that

must be like? I want a whole life term for peace of mind. Do you

think the Government has taken you seriously? Not really. You start

with the police and you go to probation, role and the Ministry of

Justice, the Attorney General. I did not think they are listening.

And the European Court might consider if these sentences are

lawful anyway. If they did that and said that you cannot give a whole

life sentence to people, would that be binding in Britain? In theory,

yes. It is the grand chamber in Strasbourg that will have to make

this decision. They rejected the argument that it was unlawful in

Westminster but it was only rejected by four down to three and

it is going to be grand chamber. This is an example where frankly

Strasbourg and Europe should not be gerrymandering with the British

legal system. Do you accept it is perhaps degrading to not have any

hope of ever being released? Well, when you look at this man and his

past history, I think it is fair to say that he needs a whole life

after. But if we look at some offenders, -- life sentence. But if

we look at others, it is difficult to look around the issues because

of so many different categories of rape. I think with my story and my

experience, I think this is where the justice system is passing me by.

18 not think it is strong enough to make changes. -- they do not think.

Helen has tried to see the Prime Minister and he is busy, or his day

but you would like five minutes. That is all I ask all. Why is she

being fobbed off? I think the whole system, the judiciary, agencies and

the Government is being hamstrung by a system which in many ways, for

good reasons, it cannot fully control. It is hamstrung by a

system that all the focus as far as I can tell, is on the attacker, the

perpetrator and not on the victim. There are people that can say that

they have ticked their boxes and dump it jobs but she has not

actually had support -- Dharma their jobs but she has not actually

had support. -- accomplished their jobs. Should David Cameron meet

Helen? A I know that she needs more to be done. We got a meeting with

the Justice Minister and Attorney General. They are being hamstrung

by the system. The letter from the Attorney General said that they

cannot meet the appeal because it and the system, I did not think we

will get anywhere with it. That I think is out of touch and wrong.

You go to court and you hear the judge say that he will get a life

sentence which he does not mean because it will not be and you must

serve a minimum of 20 years. What does that mean? The difficulty is

that unless the judge has said that he will have a whole light sentence

that does not mean a light sentence, what it means is that, he gives a

determinate sentence and that means after heart of the determinate

sentence, suppose 20 years, the person would be only eligible to

apply for parole. It then goes before the board, normally presided

at on by a judge and a psychiatrist... Is it clear that

when the judge said that you must serve 20 years, he does not mean

that? He is hamstrung unfortunately by the system. He does mean it. But

it means the person concerned is eligible for parole. It does not

mean they will get it but that he is eligible to what might. Are we

being calmed? -- eligible to what life. -- are we being hoodwinked?

Many people think a life sentence does mean life. I do think that if

a judge says you must do 10 years that people think it will be 10 but

you are saying it is alive. When he -- saying it is five. When you say

it is 20 years, he can apply after 10. What I would like to say is

that it is the Parole Board themselves, I think the system is

wrong. This is an example for you. Prior to my attack, he came up on

parole in 2007 and basically he got somebody to go on to that bought

and that policeman told to the Brit lies which helped his release. --

to that Parole Board and old lies which helped his release. -- told

lies. He basically them was told that the matter cannot be taken up

further because the Parole Board is not under oath. Definite changes

are needed. We must stop there. Thank you for coming in. It is time

for the 62nd round up. -- 60 seconds or stop --. The leader on

the council in Bristol was forced to resign. The party is completely

divided on whether to work with the new city Mayer. Councillors from

all parties had agreed to join the Cabinet but Labour Party members

were overruled by head office. Two West councils have promised to

spend �50,000 each to help flooding victims. Money will go to people

that have at homes flooded in rain. We are going to houses that have

become flooded or almost but it. We are getting back information. That

will dig into the system and that will help us decide where to put

defences in future. Lord Justice Leveson talk about the injustice of

people affected by the press. Christopher Jefferies, the

schoolteacher from Bristol said that his name had been tarnished

We can pick up on one of these stories and that is the Labour

Party decision not to work with the Cabinet in Bristol with the

Independent Meyer George Ferguson after her as saying that they would.

What is going on? -- First saying. We need to work in the best

interests of Bristol as councils always do. If I had been asked to

serve in his Cabinet I would want to know the direction in which he

is going and we do not yet at any policies or inkling of the

budgetary position. You are asking him to take it a lot not knowing

the facts. A wish politicians would -- by which politicians would grow

up. We should stand up and say that I will work with George Ferguson. I

was part of a delegation to get some changes on the public

transport system. I could have let MPs out but I did not because you