29/04/2012 Sunday Politics Yorkshire and Lincolnshire

And going up in half an hour. We look at both campaigns ahead of

those it's referendum on whether for Yorkshire cities ought to that

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1676 seconds

Hello and welcome. You're watching the Sunday Politics for a dour and

Lincolnshire. Coming up: we look at both campaigns ahead of thirsted's

historic referendum on whether for Yorkshire cities should have

elected mayors. In four days' time, voters in

Bradford, Leeds, Sheffield and Wakefield will decide whether they

want a directly elected mayor for to run their local services,

changing forever the way democracy is delivered in those cities.

People in Doncaster will also decide whether they wanted to keep

their elected mayor. Our guest today from the Yes campaign,

Jonathan straight and Leeds are based entrepreneur. From the No

campaign, Jack Scott, a Labour councillor from Sheffield, and we

have a genuinely undecided voter, Chris Glenn chairs the Federation

of Small businesses in West Yorkshire and he is based in

Wakefield. Jonathan Street, tell us why we

should have directly elected mayors. I was born in bread and Leeds at --

in Leeds and I am passionate about the city. I think needs -- Leeds

needs a voice locally and internationally and an elected

mayor is a great way to achieve that. Jacques court, why should

people vote No? I think there are lots of reasons why a directly-

elected mayor will be bad for Sheffield and the other cities. The

main reason is that it puts far too much power into the hands of one

person that she cannot get rid of. He Chris Glenn, tell us why you are

undecided. At the moment, there is not enough information out there

about what the mayor will do and what his powers will be. You can

have a situation where you have a lot of power in one person's hand,

which can be a good or bad thing, we do not know how they will use it.

Let us here in more detail by voters should take part in this

referendum. Our cameras went out onto the streets of Leeds with

Samuel Fisher, the campaign director of the Yes lobby.

We have been invited by the Guardian to be a panel member in

their live debate about elected mayors. I am running an independent

campaign. I am not representing any political party our interest group.

I am a small interest honour who is passionate about the city and

thinks that this is such an important issue that someone needs

to stand up and say something about it. With a limited budget, we

cannot go around refloating the city are putting up posters, so the

benefits of social media are that you can reach people who would --

who you would not otherwise reach. We had just come out from the

online discussion on the Guardian website. Of course now we have to

meet some real people and see what they think. We are raising the

profile of Leeds as a hard Yorkshire. I do not think it will

make any difference whatsoever. will be voting know. Is that a

definite? They will be able to make things happen and raise the profile

of the city. You will have to let a person who is from the City, who

was born and bred in Leeds. There have been many visits from

ministers and Lords, from all parties, coming to the cities in

Yorkshire promoting the case for a mayor. The strong argument for

having a mayor is democracy. At the moment, people do not know what the

leader of the council is. We have this very indirect way of producing

leaders of councils. We have done it in London now for the last 12

years and it has been a huge success. This is a once in a

generation opportunity to bring real change. We believe this will

raise the profile leads around the world and to deliver prosperity to

the City as a whole. You just go straight to Jack Scott

from the No campaign. We heard from a former Labour Cabinet minister

there who said that only one in seven people could name their

council leader. Do not cities need a strong figurehead? Yes. And they

need strong leadership as well. If I thought that elected mayors would

help deliver that, I would back them in a moment. My strong belief

is that an elected mayor would create a dictator who has no checks

and balances whatsoever. He would be able to do what ever you wanted.

Councillors would have no power whatsoever and would not be able to

speak out for their communities. On top of that, there would be a

massive cost. What is an elected to dictator are? It is nonsense. If

someone is elected then they are elected democratically. There put

in power by the people for two provide a service for the people. I

believe this would put lids on the map. Do you think this campaign has

caught the public's imagination? I have had not one single leaflet

from any of the campaigns. Certainly the campaign has not been

very well promoted. The fact that there is a referendum has not been

very well promoted. I picked it up through watching our Twitter ft at

the office and I think it is really a social media and that kind of

thing that has put -- that has promoted this. You were using

Twitter and the yes campaign is very reliant on social media, but

does that not alienate a large section of the population? I would

not say that this was the only way that the issue was being promoted.

Certainly this is a more conventional form of media. Twitter

is a good way of engaging with large numbers of people and I would

not be dismissive of it as a form of communication. I Kerem this week

about the cabin we have had in Sheffield, but certainly would have

been out doing more traditional campaigning. Knocking on doors and

talking to people. One of the things that people have told me it

really clearly is that they are not very interested in this and that is

not just a coincidence, the reason, certainly in Sheffield, is actually

because by and large they're happy with it the system we have got at

the moment. We have seen tremendous progress in our northern cities.

They have had a fantastic decade and all the improvements that we

are seen where achieved without a mayor. You really think that people

are genuinely happy with what goes on in town halls at the moment?

can only talk about what people say to me and that is that they have a

civic mayor already, why would the change that when it is a system

that we have had for 150 years. People also say that there are

checks and balances that are on a current leader of a council at the

moment that are really important. Chris Clegg, of what you make of

which have heard? I think that there is some ballot things within

that but it is accused of balancing up arguments against the same

things that they are saying. Having a single person that can drive

things forward can be a good thing, but once again it is the checks and

balances side of it. If you get the right person and you would probably

have some great times with the mayor but if you get the wrong

person there is the danger that they could make a whole lot of mess.

And therein lies the danger of democracy! But would it help you as

a businessman to help you know -- for you to know who was running

Europe's City? I think it would. At the moment there are so many people

involved that it is difficult to know who is doing what and so many

things over lack each other. When you talk about education and skills,

there are so many places that deal with those things it is sometimes

hard to know who to speak to. think that is a really important

point. All elected mayor is, he does not get rid of that or the

Cabinet or the MPs or any of the quangos or anything, all an elected

mayor does it add another layer of bureaucracy. Let us hear more about

by Jack's campaign wants to keep the status quo in the tunnels.

in our town halls. What we are saying very clearly is that we do

not think Sheffield needs an elected mayor and talking to people,

they are very clear that they do not want one. I do not think these

arguments apply just to Sheffield. I think the big problems you get to

an elected mayor apply in all the other cities as well. Our campaign

is opposed to an elected mayor anywhere. Whatever David Blunkett

is for, I am against it. It is an extra layer of Government that is

being imposed with his salary around �70,000. That is more than

the leader and Deputy Leader put together in Sheffield. I cannot see

how having an extra layer of bureaucracy and a high salary could

lead to anything other than an increasing costs. A mayor would

have the power to adopt numerous advisers to help them and all the

existing officers would continue in their post, so I cannot see how

this is anything other than a recipe for an increase in costs.

The mayor would get more money than those to put together? Yes. Are you

going to vote for a mayor or against? Against. If some of the

feedback we have been getting from people is really interesting.

People have a whole range of reasons for not wanting a mayor. A

lot of people do not know that there is a referendum on and a lot

of people are not interested. People are saying to me that the

system we have got at the moment has worked for hundreds of years

and it is not broken. People say to me that in Sheffield there are big

problems with mayors. In Doncaster, a whole range of problems with an

elected mayor, as so that is a factor in how people are going to

vote on Thursday. Jonathan, we heard there that the

current council system is not broke so why does it need fixing? I think

it is broke. No one knows who is in charge. The person who is in charge

will change from time to time and sometimes with great frequency, so

there is no continuity. There is no strategy, no leadership. There is

nothing that represents a city on a global stage in the way that an

elected mayor, the correct elected mayor, would do.

We are still going to be electing a whole load of councillors in places

like Leeds and Bradford on top of an elected mayor, so there is a big

cost implication, isn't there? not think so. You were not going to

need to pay all the salaries that you pay without a mayor and I think

a mayor would be value for money. Look at Leeds. It is the 24th most

populous city in the European Union. It is in the top hundred by GDP. It

is a major centre. It really needs to communicate that to the outside

world to bring in investment and jobs and make it happen for the

place. How much should Amaia be paid? I think that depends how good

he is. -- Amaia be paid? If you cut someone who has leading a business,

is there a great deal of difference? So, for example,

Sheffield has a turnover of about a billion pounds. That is about the

same sort of size as the FTSE 100 company. Many of those are paid

tens of millions of pounds, those chief executives, I just think that

and there is tremendous extra cost at a time where we needed to

protect services from significant cuts. And she would be paying Amaia

hot, between 102 hundred 1000? So that his value for money. So you

could end up paying the mayor more than the Prime Minister? Would that

be acceptable? It depends what he is doing and what is mandate is.

This just shows the whole problem that there is with elected mayors.

There has never been an elected mayor that has not massively

increased the cost. In Sheffield, that leader and the Deputy Leader

appeared to get there are not paid as much as some of the elected

mayors that are, so there is a massive cost implication. I think

the money once more money spent on services. If you get -- if you pay

peanuts you get monkeys. For me this is getting down to the nub of

the issue which is that leadership is about people, not structures. If

Lee meets -- of Leeds need an effective leader it then the people

of Leeds can vote for that at the moment. Her can they vote for it?

They do not have a say. The vote for councillors and those

councillors choose a leader. That is not giving the people of Leeds a

say. My sense of that is that at the moment we used exactly the same

system as we used to elect the Prime Minister. We vote for MPs, we

vote for councillors, the get together and decide who will be the

leader or who will be the prime minister. I think David Cameron has

got quite good name recognition, I think Ed Miliband has quite good

name recognition, I do not think that putting our cities on the

world stage is about structures. Pamela that the question on the

ballot paper. There is some controversy about the wording of

this. Some argue it is biased in . Jacques got, what you make of

that? I think it is a bias question. It is a question that is trying to

prompt people.. Jonathan, do you think the question is there? I

completely disagree. On a first reading of that I would state that

it plays into the No camp because people are more inclined to keep

the status quo than change. But this is saying that if you want a

mayor then you have to change something. I do not think it plays

into the yes campaign at all. what you think of the arguments put

forward by the no campaign? I think there are some ballot problems for

forward by the no campaign FTSE 100 businesses have to generate the

income but councillors just have to spend it. We are always against

quangos. We delight additional costs for the sake of it. I know

that there is one of the mayor's out there who reduced his own

salary and spends less driving his own car. I think it is the case of

once again, in that is the right people and they have the right

interests at heart, then there is the potential for them to do really

well. At the same time, there is a cost involved that we have to pay.

Are you not worried that it puts too much power in one person's

hands? I think that could be a positive or negative. If the right

persons use that power wisely, it could be put to good use. But there

is also the potential for abuse. You could end up whereby they have

not got the interest of the city probably at heart. They have got

their own political agendas. well as the referendum on the

elected mayors, voters in council areas across Yorkshire,

Lincolnshire and the West Midlands will go to the polls on Thursday.

Len Tingle has been taking a look at our election battleground.

Council elections are big and bewildering. Not every council is

having an election this year. Of those that are, just one third of

their councillors are up for re- election. That means that the

political change in our town and city walls do not happen as fast as

a general election. -- city halls. Let us take a look at the picture

from the 2011 elections. 14 of the councils that watered them have

elections again this year. Libra it did really well in 2011, winning

enough seats for to take control of Hull and Sheffield from the Liberal

Democrats. Conservatives -- of the also have enough seats to one

Bradford and Lincolnshire as minority administrations. Be sure,

will Labour make further gains? What could spoil those ambitions.

In Bradford, it could be George Galloway's respect. Labour, by far

the largest party, needed just one more seat for a majority. Respect

is fighting 12 of the city's 13 seats up for election. If it takes

some for Labour, it could and balance the power. What about other

minor parties? UK is making a big push the share, fielding more

candidates than ever before. It is still contesting the one in three

of the elections. The Greens are having council's success in pockets

across the Aegean, but with limited resources it has Tippet its

resources carefully -- its targets carefully.

Now back to the referendum on elected mayors. Chris Glenn, you

were undecided before the start of this programme. How will you vote?

I think at the moment I am going to need to find out a bit more about

it. I still do not think there is enough information out there. I

think there are positive aspects to being a mere but I think there are

some serious aspects as well. -- serious downside as well. I am

still on the fence. Gentlemen, how are you going to persuade people

like Chris to vote in the referendum? People in a major city

like Leeds need to be able to choose their leader to put their

city on the map. A mare at massive costs and it also makes local

Government far more difficult and complicated and I think it gets

less decisive. How would you sell this to people? Why to it -- choirs

that important that the vote? a once in a generation opportunity.

It is a chance to meet changed for the better so people need to get

out and vote. And there we must look at debate for today.

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