19/01/2014 Sunday Politics Yorkshire and Lincolnshire

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Nick Clegg says

Chris Rennard must apologise. "What for?", say his friends. We'll ask

senior Lib Dem minister Danny Alexander whose side he's on.

What about the voters? What do they make of the Lib Dems? We hear the

views of a Sunday Politics focus group.

The undercover investigators claim that hunts regularly breaking the

law and he did not make the announcement? I

don't think that's right. I don t clear every word I say with him I

don't expect him to do the same to me. The Lib Dems have told us before

it was the Treasury that was blocking this from happening. We

were going to ask the low pay commission to advise us on bringing

the minimum wage back up. During the financial crisis, wages have been

lower-than-expected but it's also right, we shouldn't act in a hasty

way, we should listen to what the commission has to say, and if they

don't recommend an increase we have to make sure economic conditions are

there to get it right. Not only are the Tories getting credit for that,

our Scottish voters group showed that people have still not forgiven

you for ratting on tuition fees and that was a broken promise that

didn't even apply to the people in Scotland, where there are no tuition

fees! Nick Clegg has been very clear about the issues that that brought

up. If you look at our manifesto, the University of London said we

delivered about 70% of our policies in the manifesto. They haven't

forgiven you for the big one. The big promise we made was to cut

income tax the millions of people. That is a policy which is putting

money back into the pockets of working people. It is only possible

because we are delivering our economic plan in government with the

Conservatives. Now we have to make sure, through tax cuts, through

looking at issues like the minimum wage and other groups who have made

sacrifices, make sure that benefit is shared. I am not going to agree

to anything which undermines the confidence of businesses to invest

in this country over the next 1 months. Speaking of Scotland, the

Lib Dems, why do they now look largely irrelevant in the battle for

the union? Not one of our focus group even knew who your Scottish

leader is. I don't accept that. I have spent a lot of time with

Alistair Carmichael and others, we are all making the case every day.

If Scotland votes to be independent, it will be in a much worse financial

position within the European Union. Scotland will be contributing to the

rebate for the UK, rather than benefiting from it. It has been a

disaster for your Scottish based to have joined a coalition with the

Tories. It may have been the right thing to do, you say it is in the

national interest, but Scottish Lib Dems did not expect to be in a

coalition with the Tories. By the way I think it is also in the

national interests and the interests of the people for Scotland, cutting

the income tax of Scottish people, stabilising the economy. We are now

seeing good growth. But you are in meltdown. I don't accept that. We

will see what happens in the 20 5 election. I think we have a record

to be proud of, we have played a very important role in clearing up

the mess Labour made in the economy, of making sure the

Coalition government tackles the problems in this country, but does

so in a fair way. I think the biggest risks to the economic

recovery over the next few years is either a majority Labour government

or a majority Conservative government. Labour you cannot trust

with the finances, the Tories want us to play chicken with the European

Union which would truly be a disaster to investment in this

country. You announced this week that if Scotland votes to leave the

UK, it would be the British Treasury that would guarantee all British

government debt. There wouldn't be a negotiation, but the backstop would

be that even if they didn't take anything, we would still guarantee

the debt. What was happening in the markets that you needed to calm them

down? We were getting quite a few questions from the people we rely on

to lend us money. We are still borrowing billions of pounds every

month as a country. Those people were asking us to clarify this

point. It was becoming a serious concern? It wasn't reflected in the

guilty yields. I follow the bond market quite carefully and there was

no sign this was having an impact. That's why the right thing to do was

to clarify this point now, rather than the concerns being reflected in

what you imply, and I think it is a bad idea for Scotland to vote for

separation but it would be wrong to allow for the fact that question is

on the table to cost taxpayers in the UK more money and higher

interest payments simply because Alex Salmond has put that question

on the table. That's why I think it was the right thing to do. There

were a lot of calls from the focus group that you need to be different.

Nick Clegg has embarked on this aggressive differentiation. Where

you can be different is the bankers' bonuses. What conceivable

reason could there be for anybody at RBS getting a bonus twice in their

salary? We have not been approached by RBS in terms of those votes. I

would be sceptical about an approach from RBS if it can. It shows what we

have presided over as a party in government, massive reductions. .

I'm not asking you about that, I'm asking what conceivable case there

can be for a bank that has failed to sell its branches even though

ordered by the Government, still has 38 billion of toxic debt on its

balance sheet, I ask again what possible reason should they get

twice salary as a bonus? Your right to say RBS is in a very different

position to other banks, it is mostly owned by the state. RBS

hasn't put a case to us but they might do so I would like to look at

what they would say, but I would be sceptical as to whether a case could

be made given some of the things you said, but also the fact that it is a

bank that has benefited from the taxpayer standing behind it. Now RBS

has to focus more on domestic retail. Let me turn to Chris

Rennard, ten women have accused him of sexual harassment. He denies

every case. Who do you believe? We have been through a process on this

as a party. A report has been issued on this. I agree with Alistair

Webster on this, he has made clear that while he cannot prove what

happened to a criminal standard that there is clear there has been

considerable distress and harm caused. I agree with him about that

and that's why it is necessary for Chris Rennard to apologise as he has

been asked to do. If he refuses to apologise, should he be denied the

Lib Dem whip in the Lords? I don't think he should be readmitted to the

Liberal Democrat group in the House of Lords until such time as the

disciplinary process, including the apology, has been done properly We

are very democratic party, it is a matter for our group in the House of

Lords in due course to make that judgement. Party HQ has had a lot of

complaints from party members about the fact no apology has been made.

The appropriate committee would need to look at that and decide what

action needs to be taken because these are very serious matters. We

as a party have learned a lot, taken a long, hard look at ourselves, to

change the way we work. The apology does need to be made. We are told

that Lord Newby, the Chief Whip of the Liberal Democrats in the House

of Lords, we are told he has shaken hands with Chris Rennard and

welcomed him back. That decision has not been taken yet. I think Lord

Newby would share my view on this. Have you shaken his hand and

welcomed him back? No, I haven't. Does Nick Clegg have the power to

deny Chris Rennard as the whip? I am making it clear that a lack of

apology is totally unacceptable and therefore we have to take steps if

that is not forthcoming. His view and my view is that Lord Rennard

should not be readmitted to the House of Lords if that is not

forthcoming. In our party, our group in the House of Lords has two in the

end take a view for itself. And they can override Nick Clegg's view? I

hope that when they look at this... Do they have the power to override

Nick Clegg? They have the power to decide who should be the whip. The

failure to follow up the simple human demand for an apology for the

stress that has been caused is totally unacceptable. Your party is

totally down lighted on this -- divided on this. Here is what Lord

Carlile had to say. A total nonsense, hyperbole. It is a

ridiculous statement to make and we have seen Alistair Webster, the QC

who did this investigation, comment on that himself this morning. He has

followed the process the party laid down in its rules, which sets the

standard for the investigation which asked him to report on the evidence

he has found, but he also has a duty of confidentiality and

responsibility under the data protection legislation as well. Here

is what your activists have said in a letter to the Guardian. This shows

there are strong opinions, but why should Chris Rennard apologise for

something he denies, unproven allegations, on an unpublished

report that Chris Rennard has not been allowed to read? He should

apologise because he wants to continue to be a member of the

Liberal Democrats and this is the recommendation that has been made by

the internal disciplinary process. Webster himself said this was not an

inquiry, it is an opinion. If Chris Rennard apologises on this basis, he

opens himself to civil lawsuits He says he is not going to do it. As a

Liberal Democrat you join the party because you believe in its values,

you abide by its rules. One of those rules is that we have a process if

there are disciplinary allegations. The committee of the party supported

Webster's recommendations, one of which was that an apology should be

made because he clearly found distress had been caused. Will there

now be a proper inquiry? I don't think any of these legalistic

things, I don't think he can have it both ways. Will there be a proper

inquiry? Alistair Webster did do a proper inquiry. There was a proper

report into what happened at the time and we have learned a lot from

this is a party, and the most important thing now is that Chris

Rennard apologises. You have made that clear. What kind of biscuits

are you? Are you a Tunnocks? Soft on the inside? It is good of you to be

advertising a Scottish product. We just wondered if you weren't tough

enough to take on Ed Balls. Thank you. More than tough enough is the

answer to that. Generally governments are a bit

rubbish at IT projects. They tend to run way over budget and never quite

achieve what they promised. So the revelations of a former spy that the

US and British security agencies were in fact astonishingly efficient

at eavesdropping on the digital communications of their citizens

came as a bit shock. But just how worried should we be about their

clandestine activity? In his latest revelation, former US

by Edward Snowden has claimed that America's National Security Agency

operates a secret database called Dishfire. It collect 200 million

mobile phone messages every day from around the world, accessed, he says,

why British and American spies. This week, the president has outlined a

series of surveillance reforms, including Ning to the storage of the

phone call information of millions of Americans, and no Morse -- and no

more spying on allies like Angela Merkel. Critics say that the British

intelligence agencies have refused to acknowledge even the need for a

debate on the issue. The Foreign Secretary William six says that we

have a very strong system of checks and balances. -- William Hague. ??

new line Nick Pickles is director of the pressure group Big Brother

Watch. The Labour MP Hazel Blears in on Parliament's Intelligence And

Security Committee. They're here to go head to head.

Welcome to both of you. Hazel Blears, let me come to you first.

President Obama has made some major changes as a result of what we have

learned that the NSA in America was up to. But British politicians seem

to, they are not up for this kind of thing, they are hoping it will go

away? It is not going away and that is why my committee, the

Intelligence And Security Committee, has decided to launch an enquiry

into whether the legal framework is up-to-date. We have had massive

technological change. We have had a call for evidence. Some of the

sessions will be open so that people can see what the evidence is.

Obviously some of the information will have to be classified, but on

the committee, there is a real commitment to say, there is a big

debate going on, let's see if the system is as Rob asked as we can

make it. The big question is oversight and the call for evidence

that the committee has issued is not mention oversight. It is ten years

since the Foreign Affairs Committee said that the committee should be a

fully elected committee chosen by Parliament and not the Prime

Minister. It has changed, actually. The Prime Minister nominates people

and the house gets to him -- gets to approve. In America, they have a

separation of power, the president does not nominate Kennedy.

Basically, Hazel Blears, you're an establishment lackey? I do not think

so. Most of the people on the committee have some experience of

intelligence and these issues. In this country, we have robust

scrutiny, compared to some of her European neighbours. We have

Parliamentary scrutiny, the interception commissioners, and

ministers have to sign the warrants. But there may be room for

improvement, which is why we are having the enquiry. Do not forget,

President Obama said that the agency should not have the ability to

collect data, he wanted to put more safeguards in. That is essential for

the work of the agencies. If you cannot see the data, you cannot take

the connections and see the patterns. Some people never talk

about the threat from terrorism it is all about travesty. There are

several thousand people in this country, as we are talking, who are

actively planning to do a country harm. When this debate started in

the US, the NSA head stood up and said there are 54 plots that have

been detected by this capability that has detected and that in bulk.

Now the head of the NSA has admitted that the number is actually zero. It

is not the intelligence committee in the US that did the work to reduce

that number, it was a Judiciary Committee. The fact that we have two

different bodies doing this in this country, it means that you do not

get the correct view. How can people have confidence in a body when if

you go around Europe, for example, or the world, we are not at the end

not requiring judges to not sign warrants? I do not accept that the

committee failed on that range of issues. You look at the reports on

7/7. Two reports by the committee get to the heart of it. If you look

at that terrorist attack on our country, people will say, why did

you not have them on the radar? The agencies are between a rock and a

hard race. They have got to be subject to oversight, but beanie

capability. Did you know about Dishfire? We go to GCHQ on a regular

basis and I know about the capabilities that we have got. Some

of the names of these programmes, we would not necessarily know. But did

you know that GCHQ had the capability to use Dishfire, or to

get Dishfire material from the NSA? I knew and my committee knew that we

had the capability to collect data, and these days, people do not write

letters, they do not use landline telephones, they use the Internet

and text in, so it is important that the agencies are able to keep up

with that take the logical change. What should happen? The proper legal

framework should include, if a company is cooperating, as Google

and Facebook do, it should be illegal for GCHQ to hack into them.

In the US, Lundberg estimate that this has driven a 35mm and hole in

the US economy because people do not trust but there are systems are

secure. We need to know that GCHQ are not trying to use a different

door into the system, whether by hacking or foreign intelligence We

need judicial oversight with judges and not politicians signing off The

final 30 seconds to you. As a result of the changes in the Justice and

Security act, the committee is accountable to Parliament and not

the Prime Minister. Those changes are taking place, and I am up for

the debate if we need more change or not. But I want British agencies to

have more power to protect the people in this country. Thank you to

both of you. It's coming up to 11:40. You're watching the Sunday

Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, we'll get the verdict of

the Minister for Portsmouth on that dive from the Portsmouth MP. Ouch!

Hello. You're watching Sunday Politics for

Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. Coming up today: The undercover

investigators who claim that hunts regularly breaking the law and

subjecting foxes to extreme cruelty. We ask whether the hunting ban has

become unenforceable. And in a week when David Cameron

came north to promote shale gas exploration, we will also be

discussing fracking with our guests today. The Labour MP for Wakefield

and Shadow Transport Secretary Mary Creagh and Conservative MP for

Pudsey Stuart Andrew. First, we are going to talk rural bus services.

Fares on many services, especially in the evenings or weekends, do not

cover the cost of running them. Traditionally local councils have

chipped in to meet the losses by faced by operators to ensure that

passengers are left not stranded. However, with local authorities

across Yorkshire and Lincolnshire facing a financial squeeze, bus

subsidies in many areas are being slashed.

Passengers are having to get used to waiting a bit longer for some of

their buses these days. Here in Saltaire on the edge of Bradford,

the 679 used to pick up at this bus stop every half hour. It doesn't any

more. We have just one bus and hour daytime only. There is not enough

passengers on this route to make this service pay its way. How does

the service keep going? It is paid for by West Yorkshire Metro as a

social service for people in this area. They are not seen as glamorous

like trains and trams, so politicians tend to push them to one

side. In fact the vast majority of people go into cities by bus,

cycling or walking. It's not cheap to run a bus. It's estimated that

every day on the road cost around ?300. Even so, the vast majority of

services are commercially profitable. Only around 15% require

any form of subsidy. Those subsidies, largely through local

authorities, are being squeezed hard. It is estimated that over our

region they have been cut over the last two years by at least 25%. And

campaigns are springing up in many places as the squeeze on local bus

services becomes tighter. This is a timetable from 12 months ago and

there were six or seven services running through to my village. I've

lived here for 28 years. You tend to structure your life round these

services. At a stroke, they have just been withdrawn. This man and

his family live on the edge of York and was happy to add his name to a

petition calling for help after loss`making local bus services were

progressively cut. Clearly, there was a considerable outcry in the

area as evidenced by the fact that 105 people have so far bothered to

reply to our petition. That's 105 households out of a possible 400.

Clearly there is strong body of opinion that the bus service is no

longer fit for purpose. It's causing a fundamental switch in public

transport provision according to this campaign who teaches on the

subject at Huddersfield University. All these services are under the

microscope. It is really quite appalling the situation facing

public transport. We are seeing the Beeching of the buses across England

at the moment. Many places will lose bus services in their entirety. That

is certainly the case here. The last bus from this stop is now at 6:30pm

in the evening. The county council has had to cut subsidies on

loss`making evening services. I think we need a better deal from

central government to bring funding in and for it to be ringfenced by

the county council for transport. It is very hard. And it is going to get

worse. Over the next few weeks, councils will decide how to allocate

their even smaller resources. At off`peak times, the wait for the

next bus is likely to get even longer.

With many councils now counting the pennies, isn't it inevitable that

some bus services will be slashed? What we have seems in this

government has come in is a huge reduction, a 25% cut, in the amount

of subsidies councils are getting to run those rural non`commercial boss

services. That has led to fears growing up by nearly 5% and

passenger numbers following which leads to a downward spiral. That

affects certain communities more than others. It particularly affects

young people and older people. There is no good having a pensioners bus

pass if there are no bus services for them to use. We heard the phrase

a Beeching of the busses. That is what we are looking at in many

places. Services will be decimated, won't they? These are difficult

times and difficult decisions are having to be made. The government is

doing what it can. It is ringfencing funding and devolving much of the

funding to local councils so they can work with local bus operators

better. They know their communities better and provide the services

those communities need. You mentioned a free bus pass for

pensioners. Some would say that wealthier pensioners should not be

entitled to bus passes and that money could be used to subsidise

local services. The way that those bus passes are funded is through a

grant so it doesn't make sense to cut it for one section and not the

other. It is a universal benefit. We think it would be better to give

transport excecutives the ability to regulate their services again. That

is the way they can specify the services they want, commission them

as we see and London. `` in London. There there is a thriving transport

system. Are you pledging to reverse every bus cut in the country? Could

you pay for that? We think we could use the money better by allowing

local authorities to have better regulation. At the moment it is a

free for all. We need to look at a concessionary scheme for young

people because they are being priced out of education and further

education and training. I suspect people will look at HS2 and the

billions that will cost and say a tiny fraction of that money spent on

busses would improve the lives of many people in rural communities. We

have a finite amount of money on all these projects. We need to make sure

we spend that money wisely. Is it sensible to subsidise a service that

has one or two passengers when there are other services we could help. If

you price people of the busses, they will take the logical alternative

which is to go to minicabs, if there are a couple of people going in that

is often cheaper. You have to allow people the chance. You have to have

better information and make it easier for disabled people to get on

the busses. The government has failed to drive up disability

accessability and failed to insist on a national training scheme for

drivers. All of that would cost a lot more money. Guide Dogs for the

Blind are doing it for free. I was with them in Wakefield. It doesn't

cost anything. No charity can write something free of charge. They were

out in Wakefield bus station. It is easy to sit here and say it is

awful. Is the money coming from? `` where is. We always hear the

criticisms of the cuts but we never hear the solutions from the Labour

Party. Let's move on. Nine years have

passed since the controversial hunting act came into being. After

protests, counter`protests and much debate at Westminster, hunting with

dogs was outlawed by Parliament. But anti`hunt campaigners insist the law

is being regularly flouted in by hunts and foxes are being killed

illegally. We are here today to look at a fox

hunt. We have had information come into us to indicate people could be

breaking the law. We have come to check it out. He has been verbally

abused, assaulted and trapped. `` tracked. Paul Tilsley spends his

life watching and waiting. A lot of hunts are blatantly flouting the

law. They are using methods that look on the face of it look legal,

but they are illegal. But when you watch them, we see illegal activity

a lot of the time. Most times we are out, we see illegal activity. We

don't always get enough evidence to take them to court. This footage led

to four members of the Middleton Hunt pleading guilty to illegal

hunting last year. It shows a hunted fox hiding in hay bales. It is

surrounded. On the left of the screen, the fox bolts the hay bales

with the hounds chasing it. The hunt master is seen blowing his horn to

announce the kill. That is not uncommon for this area of the

country, unfortunately. We get information from various hunts in

this area. What they are doing is stretching the law or just blatantly

illegal, depending on whether they think someone is watching them or

not. It is the cruelty aspect that really gets me. That is why I do

this job. Because I don't like the cruelty. This footage from Boxing

Day shows the threat of being investigated has done little to dent

numbers. The Countryside Alliance estimate there were 5,000 more

people hunting now than before the ban. The see hunting as symbolic of

the way the countryside wants to continue with traditions and be

allowed to continue to decide how it behaves, how it acts and what is

legal and what is not. Without interference, as they would see it,

from urban minded governments and animal rights activists. We asked

local hunts to talk to us about the allegations about their conduct. We

also asked to attend a hunt. They all declined our invitation. People

may be confused from time to time but the bottom line is they are

operating under this law and there have been a tiny number of cases

where hunts have even gone to court, let alone been convicted. We asked

Humberside and Lincolnshire Police about their tactics on hunting.

Humberside Police forced the second`highest prosecution rate in

the country under the hunting act. Lincolnshire Police told us that

although they will investigate allegations of illegal activity,

they don't regularly monitor hunts. While that is happening, Paul will

not give up. Let us know when they are coming our way. Give us a heads

up. We have been out here waiting for quite a few hours already,

waiting for a hunt to go past that Paul has intelligence on. The League

Against Cruel Sports now has ten investigators working seven days a

week. Paul suspect a lone rider spots and warns others of his

hideout. The usual route is changed and he is on the move again. It is a

tense situation. The monitors say their aim is to stop animal cruelty.

The hunts men strive to protect what they consider their rights as

custodians of the countryside. It is unlikely the two will ever agree.

We have been joined now by Tim Easby, director of the Master of the

Foxhounds Association based in North Yorkshire. How do you respond to

these accusations that many people are now hunting illegally? Well, I

think if you remember that the act came in in 2005 and we have had one

prosecution against the Middleton which was successful. Since 2005.

That's absolutely saying it all for me. We have only had one. For the

police to say they have been most successful against using the hunting

act, I think what we must bear in mind is that actually 97% of the

convictions they are talking about are for poaching. There are not

against recognised hunts. Are you saying that hunts are not flouting

the law and foxes are not being killed by dogs? I am saying that

hunts are acting within the law. In the case of the Middleton Hunt, they

knew they should have shot the Fox and they were in the wrong. Has

Labour's hunting act become unenforceable? I don't think so and

I am proud Labour brought in the ban for this barbaric sport. I am

concerned the government has not supported the police and given

proper funding to the Wildlife Crime Unit, so it is only being funded on

an annual basis. That is a concern for specialist role forces that have

real expertise in this area. It is not just for hunting, but also

hare`coursing and other areas where there has been a lot of incidents.

Are you saying police resources should be given to have officers

enforcing this law? A tiny number of police officers are involved in

this. This is about making sure we don't have wildlife crime committed

abroad so we don't have a legal rhino horn or illegally trapped

monkeys and rare species being brought in. There is about

protecting our borders and making sure we are not involved in

international wildlife trade. There is an important role for police in

tackling animal cruelty. David Cameron has said there will be a

free vote at some stage. When are we going to see the free vote to act on

the hunting act? That is way above my pay grade. That has been a

commitment that has been made for an appropriate time. I would argue

there are a lot of other important things to cover just now. The

economy and public services and so on. We really must work on those.

That has been a commitment which has been made. We will wait and see when

that date comes. We have had a backbench business debate every

Thursday. Any time you want to have a debate on fox hunting, we will see

you there. David Cameron knows that he will lose the vote. He is

offering rural heartlands a little ray of hope but he knows it is

completely undeliverable. Tony Blair is on record as saying it is the

thing that he did that he most regrets. I find it odd that you sit

here and say you are proud of what the Labour Party did in banning

hunting when your own Prime Minister, the then leader of your

party, said it was the one measure he regretted most. He is no longer

the Prime Minister or a Member of Parliament. This is the law of the

land. Nobody is above the law of the land. It was brought in on prejudice

and not on any scientific facts. The permanent private secretary to Alan

Michael at the time is on record of saying this is about class warfare

and not animal welfare. What is the point you're making about prejudice?

This is about class warfare and not animal welfare. This is about

tackling cruelty to wild animals. It is a piece of legislation supported

by the majority of the population, whether they live in rural

populations or in towns and cities. It is the law of the land and should

be upheld by police and respected by those it affects. The latest poll

suggested that 80% of the British public were in favour of maintaining

the hunting ban. Surely it would be a retrograde step to allow people to

kill foxes and other animals with dogs again? No, I think we should be

absolutely clear that the poll conducted before Christmas, if you

ask people inflammatory questions like, is it right we set dogs on

each other or animals against each other to fight each other? If you

ask those questions, you will get the results they got. If you look at

the poll conducted for the BBC, less than 50% of the public said that

there should be a ban. It is all about how you ask the questions. If

you ask inflammatory questions, you will get that result. Briefly, is

this a good use of parliamentary time to go through all this again? I

have made it clear that I support the ban. If there is to be a debate

to review it, so be it. I personally think we have very many more

important things to be looking at at this stage. I agree. There is not a

lot of legislation going through Parliament at the moment. But I

think we need to get on with tackling David Cameron's cost of

living crisis and making the country a decent place to live again. Which

we are doing. He reckons! Thank you for putting your point of view for

word today. Thank you. Let's get some more of the week's

political news now with our round`up in 60 seconds. Labour politicians

have labelled financial offers being made to communities which accept

fracking as being pathetic. An oil and gas company representative

denies councils are receiving bribes. I don't think it is a bribe.

I think it is a reward for hosting sites on behalf of others in the

country. Total will be drilling at two licensed site in Lincolnshire

where fracking is already taking place. The Prime Minister headed

north to give the plan and the policy as a whole his full backing.

People can already see that this is a safe and successful industry

employing local people. While the government says it is totally

committed to fracking, Labour MEP Linda Machover and says it should

not forget climate change and carbon capture projects in Lincolnshire.

Companies investing will not wait forever. They are looking for

political signals and clarity that people want this technology. If we

can get the technology up and running, it will create 2000 jobs

for our region. We can't afford not to have those. How will David

Cameron convince the public fracking is a good idea? This is a very

difficult issue, of course. It is something very new to many of us. I

am no scientist or geologist. I wouldn't be able to put that case

forward. What I have been doing is talking to a lot of colleagues,

there is a, from the other county in Lancashire for them this is a very

real issue. What has been interesting listening to them as

they want to make sure the local communities that are going to have

these exploratory drills will benefit from funding available. I am

pleased we have heard what the government is proposing. I think we

could go further. It is important the money does not just go to the

county council, but we need to see local communities benefiting from

money available. Was it a smart move for the government to allow local

councils to keep 100% of rates collected? I think that brings into

question their traditional role. Interest rates could be lower than

judicial standards when they decide whether to give planning permission.

Shale gas might be able to help us as our North Sea oil reserves

dwindle, but it is only ever a stop gap measure. We need to invest in

renewable energy. The government has wiped out the fledgling industry

with their mess of the feed into Harris. There is a large gas

interconnector and as long as that is connecting us to mainland Europe,

they will sell that onto France. This has been banned in France, so

the company are coming here to make sure it they get their foot in

somewhere. I am concerned we are not doing anything to help people with

their bills. That is why we need Labour' energy bill freeze to help

people. We have to look at getting our infrastructure right for the

next 30 years. We have to do that slowly and carefully. It is right to

do a proprietary work now. MPs on all sides are trying to it that

happen. I think we are going to hear a lot about the F word on Sunday

mornings for weeks to come. That word is fracking. Goodbye.

Andrew, back to you. Welcome back. Now she made quite a splash last

night. I am talking, of course, of the Portsmouth North MP, Penny

Mordaunt. If you missed her first appearance in ITV's celebrity diving

competition show, here she is in action.

APPLAUSE Here is a lady who is more used to

campaigning for votes than diving for them. She created far too much

rotation. Hard work has gone into the start of this dive to try and

control it. That looked painful Now the Portsmouth North MP got voted

off the show last night but what about the verdict that really

matters? The newly appointed Minister for Portsmouth, Michael

Fallon, is here. Welcome to the programme. I would give her ten out

of ten for bravery. I was cheering her on. She was doing this for a

local charity, raising money for the local swimming pool. She was a good

sport. As Minister for Portsmouth, can we expect to see you in your

swimming trunks for the next series? I do not think I have the

spare time at the moment. But there is a big challenge in Portsmouth.

Penny Mordaunt and the other local MPs there have been remorseless in

asking ministers to help the city. They are losing jobs. There is a

goblin Trinity -- there is a big opportunity to create jobs. Should

she have been on a celebrity television show of their role these

problems in Portsmouth? This was in her spare time and it is raising

money for a good cause. I do not think we should eat two sniffy about

it. Did I not see you dressed up on Thursday night, doing your

programme? This is my job. This is not her job. It was in her spare

time, she was raising money for a local charity. Your Minister for

Portsmouth. Are we going to have a minister for every town? Are we

going to have a minister for Chipping Sodbury? Chipping Sodbury

does not have the issues that Portsmouth have -- that Portsmouth

has. There are jobs at risk in shipbuilding. The government puts in

a lot of money through the regional growth fund, some ?20 million. There

are range of government funding streams going into Portsmouth. My

job is to make sure that is properly coordinated. I need to make sure

that Portsmouth seizes this opportunity to develop a more

broadly -based marine and maritime economy. To make sure a marginal

seat stays Tory at the next election? There are marginal seats

everywhere. There is a Liberal Democrat marginal the -- seat. Vince

Cable and I have been working together for the issues that

Portsmouth is facing. We work on these things together. But I have

the very specific job of making sure that the effort on the ground is

coordinated. So Vince Cable is not the Minister for Portsmouth? I have

been there recently, so has Vince Cable. So there are two ministers

for Portsmouth? Just a minute. I am making sure that the effort is

properly coordinated on the ground. I am determined to turn this

challenging time into a proper opportunity. Should we be to Paul

faced about this? No, good honour. How much money would be have to pay

you to get into a swimming costume? Bid is not enough money in the BBC

covers. Good on her. It took seven years to get a leg there's an MP.

She should be a minister. It is a pity she has the spare time to do

this. She is very talented. It is interesting about the Minister for

Portsmouth, up in the north-east they must be sad that they do not

have any marginal seats. Nick Brown as David Cameron last July, can we

have a minister for the north-east, and the Prime Minister is said no?

Does this mean that Portsmouth is more deprived economic late than the

north-east? No, it means it is a marginal seat.

The Labour Leader Ed Miliband was on the Andrew Marr programme this

morning and he outlined plans under a Labour government for an annual

competition audit. Here is what he had to say. The next Labour

government will have an annual competition at it, not just done by

the regulatory body. Alongside them will be the citizens advice bureau,

setting the agenda for the future, setting the agenda for how we can

ensure that competition will benefit consumers and businesses. I want to

see Labour going into the next election as the party of

competition, the party of the consumer, the party of hard-pressed

working families who are struggling. They need somebody to deal with

those issues and that is what the next Labour government will do. I

thought you were meant to be the party of competition? We are the

party of competition. This is the party that has given us some of

these problems. We have an annual competition review in the energy

sector. We have already tackling banking. What is interesting about

his proposal is it is the smaller ones who are less sure about this,

the smaller banks who think that this could inhibit the growth. It is

the smaller energy companies who think that through interfering with

the market, through his price freeze, that he will hinder

competition. We spoke about this before. It is a clever pitch that Ed

Miliband is making. Under the guise of token markets and claiming to be

the party of competition, he is creating the reason for state

intervention? -- broken markets Exactly, and it is state

intervention that does not work There is a proud tradition in

government of smashing open cartels. Teddy Roosevelt did it nearly a

century ago. The problem is, in those situations it was clear and

obvious that the consumers were suffering. I am not sure it is

entirely obvious in this country. In the banking sector we have free

current accounts in the high street. That is not true in all Western

countries. In the energy sector our bills are not outlandish they high.

It is when we take taxes into account the become unaffordable He

has to make the case that consumers are suffering as a result of these

monopolies. Ed Miliband would say it is not about state intervention but

about making markets work. The piece that was written by his intellectual

Duryea about the significance and the importance of Teddy Roosevelt.

He was the Republican president in the yearly -- in the early years of

the last century. He wanted markets to work. There is an interesting

debate on Twitter this morning. Tim Montgomerie is saying, why are we,

the Conservative Party, not seen as the party of Teddy Roosevelt? We are

seen as the party of business. There are smaller energy companies

competing against the big six. In banking, we have seen smaller

companies coming. It was the Labour government that created the big six

energy companies. I think Teddy Roosevelt also invaded Cuba and the

Philippines. That could give us a clue as to Ed Miliband's foreign

policy. Nigel Farage has promised to purge the party of its more extreme

candidates ahead of the European Council elections in May. But that

may not be going so well. Listen to this. The latest in this process is

these homosexual laws. And Thomas I shall manage. I believe that the

Prime Minister, who was warned that disasters would follow a three went

in this direction, he has persisted, and I believe that this is largely a

repercussion from this godlessness that he has persisted in. The

instructions I have got from now on, or is just not to answer in, and not

to give interviews such as this one. So you are ignoring them? I am not

ignoring them. But you are talking to me? You are the last one I shall

be speaking to. I think it is too late. Who would have thought it It

is not global warming that is causing the floods, it is gay

marriage? That explains it. Last year David Cameron offered a coded

retraction of his statement that UKIP is full of fruit cakes. I think

he will be tempted to retract the retraction. It is a warning to lots

of Tories who think that their best interests are served by flirting

with lace -- with UKIP. Nigel Farage is a very plausible guy, but several

layers down, there are people who are very different. Nigel Farage is

saying that he's going to clear the party out of what Mr Cameron called

the fruitcakes. If he is true to his word, Mr Sylvester's days in the

party should they numbered. If Nigel Farage falls under the bus, what is

left of place -- what is left of UKIP? People say that they like UKIP

because unlike other politicians, they speak their mind. But as it

turns into more of a proper organisation, people speaking their

mind will be less acceptable. The European elections are always a

protest vote. People are not happy with the elite. You will get people

saying utterly ridiculous things like that man in Henley-on-Thames.

But this is a chance to vote against the entire political establishment.

I am not sure that comments like that will make much of a difference.

There are lots of arguments about climate change. That was certainly a

new one! They are the only big protest party at the moment. Protest

party is obviously hoovered up lots of votes. We have got to be clear in

European message that we are the only party that can reform Europe

and give people a proper choice the first referendum in over 40 years.

Mr Sylvester used to be a conservative. You're probably glad

to see the back of him? David Cameron is right, there are probably

a few fruitcakes around there. I think that mainstream conservatives

will understand that this is the only party that can secure European

reform and give people the choice they have been arguing for. Whatever

happens in the European elections, it is a protest vote. We have almost

run out of time. We will see this week of Chris Rennard gets the party

whip act. There is a battle brewing between Danny Alexander and the

common side of the Liberal Democrats and the House of Lords. If he turns

up on Monday and asks to be let in, I they going to make a big scene at

the gate of Parliament? And the issue will stay in the papers? Yes,

they are clearly nervous that Lord Rennard might be tempted to mount a

legal bid. That is all for today. Thanks to all my guests. The Daily

Politics is back on Monday at midday on BBC Two. And I will be here again

next week. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.