04/05/2014 Sunday Politics Yorkshire and Lincolnshire

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Walls are being

re-painted in Belfast as Gerry Adams begins his fourth day in police

custody in connection with one of the most brutal and shocking murders

of the Troubles. That's our top story.

He may have got egg on his face this week but Nigel Farage is a serious

electoral threat in this month's elections. I'll ask the Conservative

Party Chairman Grant Shapps how worried he is.

And we're on the trail of Nick Clegg. You were voted the best

Stay with us for the Sunday Politics likely to be a good

Stay with us for the Sunday Politics in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. We

find out why there are calls for voters

in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. We find out why there are calls for

voters to be given more power to sack badly

debate what it means for London. And with me, as always, the best and

the brightest political panel in the business - Nick Watt, Helen Lewis

and Janan Ganesh. They'll be throwing metaphorical rotten eggs

into the twittersphere. First this morning - Gerry Adams,

President of Sinn Fein, has spent a fourth night in police custody after

he was arrested in connection with the killing of Jean McConville more

than 40 years ago. Sinn Fein has claimed that the arrest is

politically motivated coming, as it does, during local and European

election campaigns. Northern Ireland's deputy first minister,

Martin McGuinness, has indicated he might review the party's support for

policing in the province if Gerry Adams is charged. The Jean

McConville murder was one of the most notorious cases of the

Troubles. The widowed mother of ten was

kidnapped from her home in December 1972, never to be seen alive again.

The IRA denied involvement but in 1999 admitted it had murdered her

and several others, known as the Disappeared. Before his death, the

former IRA commander Brendan Hughes pointed the finger at Gerry Adams,

claiming: In April this year, either Bell was

charged with aiding and abetting the murder. -- Ivor Bell. Gerry Adams

has always insisted he is innocent of any part in the abduction and

killing all burial of Mrs McConville.

We were hoping to speak to the Northern Ireland Secretary, Theresa

Villiers, but having agreed to do an interview with us this morning, she

pulled out. But we are joined from Belfast by Sinn Fein's Alex Maskey.

Welcome to the Sunday Politics. And the police just doing their job by

questioning Gerry Adams? Gerry Adams said publicly some time ago that he

was available to speak to the police, but that is not what this is

about at the moment, because what we have here is clearly evidence in our

mind of political interference in what should be due process. Gerry

Adams made it clear some time ago he wanted to speak to the police, it

was available at any time, and yet that request was not taken up until

three weeks into an election and we believe that was deliberately

orchestrated by a small number of people. What evidence can you

present this morning that proves that claim? The direct circumstances

Gerry Adams finds himself in at the moment, take that in stark contrast

when they have dealt moment, take that in stark contrast

the British Army for instance... That is just circumstantial. The

PSNI know that the soldiers involved in that and a number of other

high-profile killings of citizens here, and not one of those people

has been arrested. In fact any of the people who were interviewed were

interviewed by request. There was a stark contrast, in terms of how they

have dealt with the British military involving state killings. We haven't

got too much time. Sinn Fein said it would review its support for the

PSNI if Gerry Adams is charged. That sounds like political interference

in the police process. It's not because we have a clear mandate from

the people who elect us. Policing has been an important part of the

peace process here for many years, Sinn Fein plays an important role in

local policing partnerships. We negotiate to make sure we have

powers transferred here to elected representatives in the north. It is

a long way to go before we have policing highly accountable, and

making sure they deliver a very impartial service. How will he react

if Gerry Adams is charged? I am still trying to get a clear answer.

If Gerry Adams is charged, will you withdraw support for the Northern

Ireland police service? We view this as a serious situation and a serious

ongoing situation and we will monitor how this pans out. We have a

very important role to play to support the police service here. We

have done consistently, worked with them on a daily basis, but we will

not accept political interference by a small number of people in the

police who are undermining the police. We will not accept political

policing. If there was evidence, and I emphasise the word if, because we

have seen none, but if there were evidence to justify Gerry Adams

being charged, why should he not be charged? It is my understanding from

the family of Gerry Adams that there has not been a single shred of

evidence put forward. I understand that, but if there was evidence, why

should he not be charged? You put that caveat yourself and then you

expect me to speculate, there is no way I will do that. The fact of the

matter is there hasn't been one single shred of evidence put to

Gerry Adams in the last few days, in fact what has been put to him is a

range of issues of newspaper cuttings, books, statements made

from people, including from people who didn't want their statements

released until they have died. who didn't want their statements

was charged, again I emphasise the word if, does the police process

fall apart? The police process is a fragile entity, it requires work and

we have been saying this publicly and privately with the Irish and

British and privately with the Irish and

process has to be nurtured and developed. We are not out of the

woods yet. From a Republican point of view we have been working flat

out. I just wanted a quick answer to my question, is a yes or no? What

question I asking me? Is the peace process in jeopardy? It is fragile

and I am not going to have words put into my mouth but I don't want to

use. It has to be worked out and nurtured. Thank you for joining us.

Nick Watt, you were a Northern Ireland correspondent like myself in

days gone by. Where is this going to go? It shows how challenging the

peace process is because on the one hand you have the unspeakable pain

of the McConville family, but you also have the danger of not having

mechanisms to deal with the past. South Africa is a good example, you

have to have some mechanism to deal with the past because if you don't,

you are going to have, as Sinn Fein have now, someone in a police cell

but you don't have the arrests of the Bloody Sunday soldiers.

Paramilitary prisoners were released after two years... We have seen no

action against somebody accused of the Hyde Park bombings, it is not a

one-way street. We have the decommissioning of IRA weapons by

the IRA, therefore destroying crucial evidence. You have these

inconsistencies because you don't have an mechanism for dealing with

the past, but doing that is really difficult because of the pain of

real people. Don't you get a feeling that here in London they are hoping

he will not be charged? Definitely because it would be nice if

everything went away, but the civil case of the family is taken out of

the hands of the police. You can see here a real failure in Westminster

to see this as anything other than settled. David Cameron we know sees

himself as a chairman. I was speaking to a friend in Northern

Ireland who said he has never met Gerry Adams and I think this is very

revealing. They consider this as a settled issue that will not trouble

Westminster again. It would be, but the relatives of the disappeared

don't want it to be settled. This points to the reality that the

Belfast agreement probably had to be done, but the moral price at which

it was purchased was far greater than we were willing to admit during

the euphoria. For a country that prides itself by the rule of law to

tolerate the early release of prisoners and former pal and

military -- paramilitaries, I think was a very serious matter. As for

the PSNI, it only exists because its predecessor failed to command the

confidence of the nationalist community. It is a very big deal if

even the PSNI ends up falling into the same trap. We have to is leave

it there I'm afraid. It was the Conservative's local election

campaign launch on Friday, and what did David Cameron focus on? Burning

local issues like the state of our roads, rubbish collection or care of

the elderly? No. It was Europe. The Prime Minister re-iterated again his

promise of an in-out referendum on our membership of the EU in 2017.

And it's being reported this morning that he will share a platform with

Nigel Farage in a pre-general election debate. Here's what the

UKIP leader had to say about the issue when he was on the Marr Show

this morning with Ed Miliband. David Cameron very often makes these vague

promises, then doesn't deliver afterwards. I don't think he has any

intention of allowing me into any of these debates. Perhaps Ed Miliband

wants to debate? We have got to have the TV debates as we did join the

last general election. I think David Cameron is doing everything he can

to wriggle out of them. It is up to the broadcasters but whether they

invite Nigel. My main desire is that the debates go ahead. We are joined

now by Grant Shapps. Will he be included? The debates were not

without problems, they took place during the campaign period and

disrupted the flow of the campaign, taking it out of the regions, people

getting to speak to the leaders so a longer period for that would be

helpful. I think they are good idea and they should go ahead, but all of

the negotiation about who is involved is yet to happen. So it is

not a done deal that Nigel Farage will be included? That needs to be

negotiated with the TV companies. The Conservatives believe we should

have debates, but exactly the format and the timing, all of the -- that

will be debated in the autumn, but first we have European elections,

the Queen 's speech and a Scottish referendum. The local election

campaign was launched on Friday. Why did you talk more about Europe than

local councils? Both are important. The local elections are critically

important for people, their local services. It is easy to forget, for

example, that the council tax has been largely frozen since this

Government came to power, a big contrast to Dublin under the

previous Labour government. So why did you go on and on about Europe?

Let me show you the poster used to launch your local election campaign.

There it is, and in-out referendum on Europe, the day of the local

elections, where is the word local? Is it in small print? I hear what

you're saying, I am happy to be here to talk about the local elections.

But you are right, they are on the same day, and not many people know

that only by voting conservative can you get an in-out referendum. --

Conservative. UKIP cannot deliver, we can, it is the same date, so

people... This was the launch of the local election campaign. Why does

the Prime Minister have to keep on promising something he has already

promised? The actual referendum would be in 2017. He promised it

before, he keeps repeating it because he knows people don't really

trust him. I think it is a question of the fact that, actually, unless

you remind people that the pledges there, that the only way to get an

in-out referendum is to vote for it, this is a critical moment at

which we need people to vote for that referendum if they want it. It

is not the case, as I saw this morning, being said by Nigel Farage,

that a referendum was promised before and not delivered. There was

no referendum in the last manifesto. There will be in the next one. There

was a cast-iron guarantee, in the Sun in 2006. Let's just clear that

up... Once the Lisbon Treaty... In the Sun article, he said, we will

have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. Clearly, because that treaty

had been passed before the general election, it is difficult to have a

referendum on something in the past. We joined Europe in the 1970s,

having a referendum on that! Look, that is about the future. Our

relationship with Europe is absolutely critical. Most people in

this country feel, I was not old enough to vote in that referendum,

most of those who voted, they voted for a Common Market, that is not

what we have got. We want to continue the work we have been doing

in the EU Budget, what did UKIP do? They voted against it. We want more

of those powers brought home, and we will put it to a referendum, and

people will have to vote Conservative to get it. We have been

looking at new research, almost two thirds of Conservative members are

considering voting for UKIP, almost two thirds. I have a simple message

here, which is this. If you vote for UKIP... Can we have it up? 30% are

likely, 30% are possible. That is why it is important we are making

these arguments. If you vote for UKIP, you are voting to take us

further away from returning powers to this country, further from a

referendum. It is support for Ed Miliband becoming Prime Minister,

and he will do exactly what Labour have always done - hand away powers,

and away the rebate for nothing in return, giving Europe even more so

over the day-to-day affairs in Britain. Why are so many people

considering voting UKIP? It is to hold your feet to the fire, they do

not trust you on a referendum, so they will vote UKIP to force you to

tap in your line. We have a very tough line. If I had said four years

ago that this government would manage to cut the overall EU

budget, would take us out of the bailout fund that Labour got us

into, passing a law that no more powers can go to Europe without a

referendum, if I had said that, people would say, I do not believe

it will happen. Not only have we done these things, we are promising

and in-out referendum, and the only way to get it is to vote

Conservative. Nigel Farage has said, we can't change anything in

Europe, and it is no wonder that the president of the European Commission

has said, we love having these UKIP MEPs, because they don't turn up and

vote, apart from when they vote against the cut in the budget. It

goes beyond UKIP in your party, because this research also showed

that those Conservative members most likely to vote for UKIP, they said

they do not feel valued or respected by their own leadership, and they

regard David Cameron as ideological eat more remote from them than UKIP.

What I would say is look at that list... Let me take that step

further. What people need our series solutions to serious problems. When

people vote for a UKIP MEP, I will say, which one of the 40% of the

MEPs who got in for UKIP last time are you voting for, the ones above

left or defected, the ones have gone to jail? 40% have ended up not

delivering. People have a right to know what to expect when they vote

in these elections. They can look at our record at home, and this goes to

the point you have raised about what we have done in Britain to get this

economy back on track, recover from Labour's recession. We are prepared

to take those decisions in Europe as well. Presumably, active

Conservative members, they know that, so why do they not feel valued

by the leadership? I spend time going up and down the country

meeting Conservative members, and they are on the doorstep, last

weekend 150 out in Enfield campaigning for the European and

local elections... Why are they keen on UKIP? When I meet somebody who

says that, not necessarily a member... Have you met members of

say they will vote UKIP? No, but a vote for UKIP is... Do not do it,

you will end up with Labour having more control, handing away powers to

Europe. 51-year-old meeting members who say they will vote UKIP, you

must be out of touch. -- if you are not meeting members. Some of your

members are thinking of voting UKIP. I spend huge amount of time

travelling around, I just told you about this action day in Enfield,

where we had an enormous turnout. Those members were on the doorsteps

pointing out that you can only get reform in Europe by voting

Conservative. Labour and the Lib Dems will not deliver, UKIP can't,

Conservatives will. You have not got that message across, because a

YouGov poll shows, on Europe, who has the best policies? Tories 18%,

Labour 19%, UKIP 27%. On the economy, Tories 27%, Labour 23, UKIP

4. Why don't you shut up about Europe and talk about the economy?

Look, on the 27th of May, we have European elections, as well as local

elections. If I don't talk about the European elections, you would say

what you said at the beginning about not talking about the local

elections! These are serious elections, and the point I am tried

to make is that the issues at stake are not peripheral, they are not

unimportant. Our MEPs have been battling to cut red tape from a

European level on small businesses, the same thing this government has

been doing for small businesses domestic league, where for example

every small business owner watching this show knows they have got ?2000

back in employment announced on national insurance contributions. We

are doing it at home, we are doing it in Europe, and it is important to

tie that together. Ireland that Mr Cameron saying, you should stop

banging on about Europe... -- I remember. This is before the last

general election, as in days for the Lib Dems, 18%. Even then, you didn't

win the election, and now you are only three or four points ahead, it

doesn't look good for you, does it? Even then, the poll did not turn out

to be what it was on the day. No, that is what happens, that is the

voting intentions now! You are in a worse position than a year before

the last election, which you didn't win. We are almost proving the point

that you can take a clip at any moment in time, not sounding like a

politician, but the only poll that matters is on the day. In just over

a year's time, people will have a completely different picture to look

at than these opinion polls. We have an economy from being a basket

case, the great Labour recession knocking 7% of this economy, hurting

every family, to a point where we the fastest-growing economy in the

developed world. In a year's time, I hope people will see that we are the

people who've taken the difficult decisions, got the economy to the

right place, more security for you and your family. Do not give the car

keys back to the people who crashed it in the first place. If I had a

pound for every time I have heard that! It is clearly not getting

through. On the Pfizer attempted of AstraZeneca, Mr Miliband called this

morning for a tougher public interest test such big takeovers. Do

you agree with that or not? Let me be absolutely clear, if there is any

kind of joining, we are in favour of British jobs, British aren't deep,

expanding our pharmaceutical sector. -- R But what Mr Mallon and wants

to do with rent caps, he is anti-business. -- Mr Miliband. He

wants to take us back to the bad old those. -- bad old days. Should there

be a bigger public interest test? We have seen some takeovers that people

have criticised, but others, like Bentley, Land Rover, which have been

very successful. Should there be a tougher test?! We will have tests

that ensured this get-together becomes a great Anglo-American

project, or it doesn't happen, but the Miliband approach is simply to

be anti-business, anti-jobs and anti-job security. Grant Shapps,

thank you. A challenging week for the Liberal

Democrats with a local election campaign overshadowed by another row

with the Conservatives about knife crime. Adam has spent the day with

Nick Clegg on the campaign trail. How nice! Nick Clegg is taking me on

a political mini break to the Cotswolds. Yes, we are getting the

train. He wants to highlight what his party is doing in local

government, and a personal passion of his in Europe. Graham Watson, the

Lib Dem MEP for the south-west, has been running a campaign to have

prunes recognised as a laxative. Is that Lib Dems battling for Britain

in Europe? It is not our front page manifesto commitment! It is one of

many things that Graham does, he does many other things. In fact, he

is a good example of an MEP who took a pioneering role, for instance, in

making sure... There is the proven world, but also the crime-fighting

role. -- prune. He has done work to make sure that when British

criminals flee justice, we can bring them back. And he has promoted

prunes! First stop, a gorgeous country pub, but it turns out

everyone is a journalist or a very on message activist. Dark days,

being a Lib Dem in the last few years? Strangely not. If you find

you are a Lib Dem deep down, you do not get that disheartened, because

you know that, locally, you are doing so well for the people that

you live next door to that, actually, I find I am almost

impervious to what happens on a national level. I am mayor of

Cirencester. Have you taken any leadership lessons from Nick Clegg,

inspiring new in your leadership of Cirencester? I think what he has

demonstrated his patience. It has been a tough time, he has taken a

lot of flak, and as the mayor of a town, lots of people agree with you

and a fair few don't. You are a full on mayor, he is just a Deputy Prime

Minister, do you outrank him? I don't think so, he is in government,

I am not. So our there any normal people in here? We are from

Swindon, you cannot get more abnormal. Are you a big fan of his?

No! What has he done wrong? I don't believe in his views at all. Where

has he got to? Nigel Farage would have had a pint! At this time in the

morning a copy was more appropriate. I have no time for a drink of any

kind, because now we are off to look at a local traffic blackspot. This

is amazing, like a Lib Dem election leaflet brought to life, Lib Dems

pointing at a road. High-vis jackets! Next we had to giggle full

bath, but there will be no Regency sightseeing for us, oh no, Nick is

taking us to an abandoned wilderness. We have just had a

health and safety briefing, we have been told to look out for

dive-bombing seagulls and an angry fox. That is the sort of thing Nick

Clegg has to put up with. He wants to talk about the economy but he has

to dodge the day's beat new story, letters leaked by a Tory suggesting

that Lib Dems are soft on knife crime. Isn't that a new kind of

warfare? I just think it is silly. They may think they are clever by

catching some headlines but they are not helping people who worry about

knife crime, like I do. We work together... Just like the

Coalition! This is a co-working space where different businesses

share the same office. My time with the Deputy Prime Minister is drawing

to a close. We haven't talked about the most important story of the

week, that you were voted the best looking party leader and the most

likely to be a good cook. Right, this is news to me and I can

guarantee you that my scepticism of opinion polls has just been

confirmed. Just as well because the more serious polls don't look great

for him or his party. Goodbye, and thanks for the offer of a ride

home! He is still walking. Malcolm Bruce

joins us now. According to Lib Dem briefing documents, you are likely

to choose -- lose a big chunk of your MEPs. If you lose a lot, what

would that say about a party that boasts of its pro-Europe

credentials? It would be disappointing because we have the

most hard-working MEPs. The worry that we have is that people think

the European Parliament is not important but it takes decisions

that affect us. They would be disappointing for Britain as well as

the Liberal Democrats. Isn't the problem that the more you bang on

about your pro-European credentials, the more you slip in the polls? I do

think so, we have two weeks to go and

think so, we have two weeks to go hard. You are forced in the polls. I

can tell you there are people out there who do believe Britain should

stay in the EU and they are worried that other parties will take us out.

The Liberal Democrats are clear, we want to stay in, we will work for

reform and do it effectively. If you lose the Liberal Democrats,

Britain's influence in Europe will be weakened. Your track record in

Europe shows you have been spectacularly wrong again and again.

In your 2009 manifesto you said the European Central Bank and the euro

have been tried and tested over ten years providing a clear picture of

the benefits of Eurozone membership and that proved to be nonsense. It

was nonsense everywhere. Every developed bank in the world was

tried and tested and failed. Europe may not be perfect, but the question

people have to decide is if we are going to leave Europe and be

isolated on RM, or use our influence to reform it from inside. We have

allies, you work with them, that is something the Lib Dems do better

than any other parties. Your 2004 manifesto, you claim that being

outside the euro would lead to job losses and reduced prosperity. You

were just plain wrong, weren't you? Yes, but the reason is that to some

extent the euro did not observe any rules and regulations when it was

set up. That is why we never recommended Britain should join at

the outset because the criteria had not been met. In 2001 Nick Clegg was

writing to the Financial Times... Your track record is important. He

wrote that the Tisch monetary policy is not all it is cracked up to be.

Britain would gain greater control over its affairs by joining the

euro. How wrong can he be? We have always argued that the currency had

to abide by strict criteria. It hasn't done so and that is one of

the reasons it has failed. We recognise there is no future for

Britain joining the euro and we are not advocating it. Lets put your

2010 manifesto on the screen. I didn't say it was not our long-term

interest. If Europe succeeds as an entity, if the euro becomes one of

the world leading currencies, there will come a point when it may be

justified. In the circumstances we are in the moment, there is no

recommended timescale. Let's get this right. Despite the Eurozone

crisis which has cost millions of jobs, countries that were teetering

on the brink of bankruptcy, the Eurozone now facing stagnation and

some countries on the brink of deflation, you still won't rule out

Britain joining? We are ruling it out in the foreseeable future. You

can miss the point that we are working as a coalition partner in

government that has secured recovery for the UK, and working as Liberal

Democrats in the parliament that have cut back the European budget in

cooperation with others. What would the world look like if it were right

for Britain to join the euro? You have 27 states at the moment, with

too many countries still struggling to meet the criteria so until you

have a strong and cohesive enough single Eurozone in which all the

countries can meet that criteria, Britain is better off out. So a more

centralised Eurozone, that is what you would like Britain to join? No,

because it can only happen by consent. Any circumstances in which

any further powers would be transferred from the UK to the EU,

we would support a referendum. You have just said that for the Eurozone

to work, it has to be more centralised and you said if that

happens, that is what Britain would join. I didn't say that, I said it

would require the consent of all member states to agree to the

criteria. We certainly do not envisage joining in the foreseeable

future. Since you are the proud party of in, why weren't you just

give us a referendum on in or out? Because it has to have a context.

What David Cameron is doing is dangerous because I think the major

players like Britain and France are not keen on the idea of being

bullied into reforms on the instigation of just one member state

which is threatening possibility to withdraw. They will have to agree to

rules... Just have it now. Do you want in or out? To have a referendum

against no background is to put it out of context. We are in the middle

of a crisis, a year away from the general election. We have made it

clear... You said we are in the middle of the Eurozone crisis? So we

are not in the middle of it? What's the middle? The reality is that the

Western world has gone through a deep crisis. The UK is coming out of

it, the Eurozone is coming out of it. Greece have been able to borrow

on the markets in recent weeks which is a sign of success. It is in our

interest is the Eurozone succeeds and recovers and we should be part

of it but not necessarily on the same conditions as everyone else.

The Liberal Democrats work with others to deliver Britain's

interests and if they are not there, their interests will be undermined.

You are watching Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland

Hello. You are watching the Sunday now.

Hello. You are watching the Sunday Politics for Yorkshire, Lincolnshire

and the North Midlands. Coming up, we find out why there are calls for

voters to be given more powers to sack MPs who behave badly. Let's say

hello to our guests today. Alec Shelbrooke, and John Mann. Hello to

you both. We are talking about MPs behaving badly. You said this week

that sexual harassment that `` at Westminster is a significant

problem. What is your evidence? What I say and what I have seen. It has

been there a long time and is not as bad as it was, but has not gone

away. The problem is exacerbated because there is no system for

dealing with it. People don't know where to go so people get away with

stuff that is a bit dodgy and they can carry on. What sort of things

are you talking about? I am not commenting about people's general

behaviour, who is doing what with whom. This is about misuse of

power, people misusing power concerns me. That is a problem that

has existed and still does. Is that your experience, Alec Shelbrooke, of

life at Westminster, ? It is not my experience but I think that people

who work with MPs should be able to report them to an HR department. It

is a peculiar setup in Westminster of quite unprofessional ways in,

being crammed into tiny offices with a group of people reporting just to

the MP. I think there is a need to professionalise it not of the way

the place works. Some would say the resignation of

the Newark MP Patrick Mercer this week over a cash`for`questions

scandal has further dented the battered reputation of parliament.

Voters in his constituency will however get the chance to elect a

new MP in a by`election. But in most cases voters have no power

whatsoever to sack their MP if they've misbehaved and many believe

that should change. Here's Sharon Edwards.

The recent resignation of Maria Miller over her expenses claims

brought back bitter memories for many voters. It is five years since

the expenses scandal first rocked Westminster when it was revealed

that some MPs had claimed four moats, duck houses and, in the case

of former Scunthorpe MP Elliot Morley, thousands of pounds for a

mortgage that did not exist. So do the people of Scunthorpe believe the

politicians have cleaned up their act? I think they are all out to

feather their own nests. I think there should be more transparency in

their spending. Anybody that works has to account for everything,

expenses, fuel etc, why should they be any different? Crooked. Yeah,

corrupt and crooked. We are paying for everything. They get away with

it. The government recently shelved plans to introduce a power of recall

where voters could be given the power to sack their MP. But a

campaign led by conservative Zac Goldsmith aims to force the issue

back onto the political agenda. I think it is time that we put power

back in the hands of citizens who elect us for five`year terms, which

is a long time, which is something I don't actually support. So I think

if MPs have done wrong or they have failed their constituents, there

needs to be a mechanism to allow members of public to recall their

members of Parliament. The latest proposal suggests a system where a

petition signed by at least 20% of the electorate in a constituency

would trigger a referendum on the future of an MP. If more than half

of voters support the recall of the MP, then a by`election would have to

be called. I think there are a lot of MPs who worked incredibly hard

and do a very, very good job for their constituency. This is not

about saying that all MPs are bad. It is saying that there needs to be

a safety valve in our political system that where there is an issue,

voters can have a say. At the moment, if there is a scandal,

whether about expenses, Douglas Hogg's moat, or Patrick Mercer's

lobbying, political parties can have a say, they can withdraw the whip.

`` Patrick Mercer and lobbying. Parliament can have an enquiry and

reach a conclusion about appropriate sanctions. But the voters of the

constituency are left out of that process entirely. Opinion polls

suggest that the reputation of MPs has improved little since the

expenses scandal. Many believe Parliament could do more to put its

house in order. John Mann, do voters need to be

given the power of recall and sack MPs who behave badly? Of course they

should. There is a word for it, democracy. It has been lacking. If

Patrick Mercer had been suspended, he has been suspended for six

months, if he hadn't resigned, people of new work would not have

had an MP for six months. That is nonsensical. The Coalition

Government promised us this, they said it would happen before the next

election, but they have dropped the plans? Are you running scared? It is

a mystery to me why it was dropped. It was in the manifesto and I

supported. Exactly what John said. It is unreasonable to expect an MP

who get sanctioned by the health authorities, get suspended, could

carry on in that seat. The game is up. Go and have a referendum, have

the right of recall. There are all sorts of questions which need to be

cleared up. Parliament would like the commission to look into MPs. The

fact that the standards commission and Parliament was saying perhaps

Maria Miller does not need to playback `` payback ?45,000...

45,000? It is an enormous sum of money! It was a number of weeks

before she did it. And I disagreed. I think it is absolutely right that

there should be some sort of right to recall in those situations. John

Mann, a `` are you prepared to support that Goldsmith? I will and I

think it is needed. Maria Miller should be out there. The people of

Basingstoke added big public meeting. They want a say. They want

a chance to vote her out. They should have that right. It is five

years on from the expensive scandal, before you went to Parliament. How

do you improve the image of parliament? People still think you

are a bunch of crooks. The relationship is broken. You need to

try to let people have a say when something has gone wrong. You are

dreaming if there is `` if you think there is something that we can do

where people will think that politicians are not just out to help

them in pockets. We can give more power to people but don't think they

will think differently from now. How would you improve the image, John

Mann? As every MP had said, it is answering the questions that people

like yourself ask! But even with that people like yourself ask! But

even without, it will take a long time to heal this relationship. Do

you have a moat? It is difficult to get a moat around a terraced house.

Campaigning is under way for the European elections which take place

on May 22nd. With Britain's future in Europe the subject of much

debate, Len Tingle has been back to a West Yorkshire village which held

its own referendum on whether we should remain part of the EU.

The mighty European Union. 28 countries, half a billion

population, breathtakingly grand institutional buildings and ?120

billion annual budget. The parish of Crigglestone. Five

small villages, 9000 population, turn`of`the`century parish hall and

an annual budget of just ?14,000. `` ?40,000. But back in 2007, a chunk

of that budget had to be spent holding a local referendum on the

question of whether we really should be part of the European Union. So

why is it that it tiny little place like this was holding a referendum

on EU mothership at all? Well, it was because anti`European Union

campaigners spotted a loophole in the 1972 Local Government Act. It

said that if ten people, just ten, signed a petition, then they could

force the parish council to hold a referendum on any subject at all.

And that subject was sparked by the then Labour Prime Minister Gordon

Brown. He joined other prime ministers and presidents and signed

a new agreement on how the European Union should be governed and grow.

But he refused to hold a national referendum on the issue. And that is

where Crigglestone came in. One of five tiny parishes across England

where angry opponents of the European Union forced their own

referendums to be held to put the issue into the national headlines.

The driving force behind the controversial moves to force the

parish to hold a referendum was former Olympic rower Alex Story. He

was then prospective Conservative Party candidate for the constituency

of Wakefield. `` the year respective Conservative Party `` the

Eurosceptic. At the time, he denied it was a political stunt and a waste

of time. Despite the Conservatives campaigning hard, only around 500

bothered to vote, less than 10%. But of those that did, an overwhelming

majority backed what was in effect a call for an immediate national

referendum on our EU membership. An issue that clearly hasn't gone away.

We want to govern our own country, make our own laws, control our own

borders... Nigel Farage's UKIP were not part of that referendum seven

years ago, but they did use the same loophole in other similar parish

referendums across the country. And on a far larger stage, Nigel Farage

was beating the same drum at his launch of this year's election

campaign in Sheffield. In fact, only the Liberal Democrats are ruling out

any sort of referendum on UK membership. We need to vote to get

Labour candidates in the town halls and Labour MPs in the European

Parliament. Labour launched its campaign in Dewsbury this week and

even as its candidates highlighted the importance of its membership,

one senior Labour MP, Bassetlaw's John Mann, was urging the party to

set up a date for a referendum. And as for the Conservatives, Alex Story

is now one of its candidates for the European elections. With the

leadership flatly denying it has a problem with the issue of a

referendum. We passed a law that gives this country a referendum

lock. No more powers going over to Brussels without a referendum for

the British people. So, almost seven years on, should that tiny

Crigglestone referendum be reassessed? A political stunt, or a

trailblazer? We have also been joined by Julio

Gash. She is an award`winning entrepreneur from Sheffield. Ten

years ago, you stood as a Lib Dem candidate in the European elections.

Why do you think that we have become more Eurosceptic in the last decade?

I think there are issues which have not been answered by national

politicians and by European politicians. We need answers and

those answers are not thinking indicated clearly. As such, it is

allowing an open field for like Nigel Farage. What sort of questions

are you talking about? Questions like, how is Europe run? It is very

very, very opaque. I was saying this ten years ago, people are not

knowing what is going on. It allows people to fill the vacuum and bring

in scare stories. Where there are gaps in people's knowledge, there is

fear. You had a referendum, what were the results? 50% to leave the

EU, some don't knows. That is similar to a survey I had six or

seven years ago. That was not overall in favour. The consistency

there `` there is consistency there. The issue that emerges is

immigration. We shouldn't hide away from it. The issue on the doorstep

is not that power of its power, a minority are interested in that. It

is about immigration, people feeling that there is too much. David

Cameron has been all over the TV and the newspapers talking about

immigration. Is he running scared of UKIP? Not at all. He has said that

we will have an in out referendum if there is a Conservative majority

after the next election. We brought forward air a `` a bill about having

a referendum which was defeated. But all the issues we are talking about

boil down to the fact whether people want to be in and out of Europe. We

should look at the Scottish referendum, things which now have

front`page coverage. It ties into the argument that area is not

explored, stories are not explain. When you have a referendum, when

there is something coming around the corner, all sides of the argument

put forward. That is very important on its own. So do you welcome

Cameron Potter promise of a referendum? Not necessarily, and the

example of Crigglestone shows why this is the case. You get people

with extreme views who will manipulate it for their own agenda

`` agenda. People did not turn up and it was a very costly exercise.

We work for people at a local level and an international level. I don't

think that a referendum what's all that is you. Politicians are

accountable for communicating on all issues, national or European. They

do not. Immigration is an issue which has not been debated but a

referendum is not the place for that. John Mann, you have written to

your party leader demanding a referendum. Why do think he is

wrong? Advising politely! I am in favour of having that debate is

separate from elections. The problem is this. The Tories say they want a

referendum, but on what? They want a more flexible labour market, more

zero hours contracts and more agency workers. That is exactly what is

fuelling the debate. People want less agencies, no zero hour

contracts. They don't want this flexible labour market and neither

do why. That is their big problem with immigration. People have

nothing against Eastern Europeans, they just think that it is driving

down jobs and wages. My job, my wages. Agencies are undermining that

more. Cameron and UKIP want more of it. What Cameron should do is get

that sorted and the public would say, good on you. I will let Alec

Shelbrooke answer that. If you look at our plans, we want to renegotiate

border controls. We don't deserve free movement of trade, we have free

movement of people moving to enjoy benefits. That leads to immigration

becoming a problem. It is 5% on average, in my constituency of

people I speak to, so it is not a scientific poll, say that they went

into a common market and they want a common market. They don't want

federalisation. Whatever the discussion is, whatever happens, the

British people are not going to be satisfied until they are given a

choice of in or out. Julio Gash? I think the issue of immigration and

jobs is a bit of a funny one because at the end of the day, what will

happen if we are not in Europe, what will happen to the factories which

are supposedly employing all these immigrants? Where are they going to

find the people to fill those jobs would be productivity level and the

wage level? Were there be in this country or will this companies

relocate `` will those companies relocate to Poland? You have to see

to businesses as to how they would respond. Briefly, I would say that

is an argument in favour of staying. None of these arguments will come to

the fork until there is a referendum about in or out. How do you get

people in places like Sheffield to love Europe? Being at the heart of

Europe means jobs. We need to export to Europe, it is our biggest market.

We need to make an export things that is what makes Yorkshire great.

That is what makes Britain great. I'll be hosting a radio debate on

the European elections, with some of the candidates standing in the

Yorkshire and Humber region. That will be on Thursday lunchtime from

12 noon on BBC Radio Humberside, BBC Radio Leeds, BBC Radio Sheffield and

BBC Radio York. Tweet me at iredalepolitics if you want to put

question to the candidates. Again that's the Yorkshire and Humber

debate from 12 noon on Thursday. Let's get some more of the week's

political news now. Louise Martin has our round`up in 60 seconds.

Skipton Conservative MP Julian Smith blasted a quarter of Yorkshire's MPs

who either voted against HS2 or failed to vote at all. He says that

the county is in danger of overlooking a phenomenal

opportunity, a ?50 billion scheme which the Shadow Transport Secretary

and Wakefield MP Mary Cray said the Labour Party would back, but with

caveats. There is no blank cheque. The biggest risk to the project is

political, political delay. Further prayers were said for the

family of Ann McGuire, the Leeds teacher who was killed on Monday. ``

will be said today. Praise was poured on the dedication of the

loving teacher and Christi which she helped to create.

Firefighters across Yorkshire have been taking strike action this

weekend as part of a long`running dispute over pensions. The Fire

Brigades' Union members walked out over changes to pensions and their

retirement age. The government claims that firefighters have a

generous pension scheme. Alec Shelbrooke, you'll Conservative

colleague, Julian Smith, says Yorkshire people are not in the zest

enough about HS2. I think he said Yorkshire MPs are not enthusiastic

enough. Some others abstained on Monday night. It is important

project for the city of lead but it cannot be built on the backs of

hard`working people's losing equity `` loss of equity in their houses.

The government has moved from where it was not far enough. Therefore, it

was not enough to vote down, but it was not enough metres aborted. John

Mann, you are sceptical and HS2? I'm not bothered about houses in the

Cotswolds. I want all the contracts going to British companies to do the

manufacturing and building. That is not in there, I want that built`in,

that every single job that comes from this will go into British

workers including in the North of England, including Bassetlaw. So why

did 15 Yorkshire MPs at staying on that vote? Surely you should have

put your money where your mouth is? I have. I have said exactly why I

will support the Project for Leeds. I will wait until it is good for my

constituency, I couldn't care less about the Cotswolds. M Stich runs

have seen their houses devastated and until there is a compensation

package in place, I cannot bring myself to say yes to this. It was

just phase one, but it is important that we get these things right at

the start so that when the project comes along, people are not losing

out. Do you think people are confused on Labour's position on

this? There were discouraging noises from Ed Balls. Now Mary Cray says

she's behind the project. We don't know Labour stands. I think Ed

Miliband has been clear all along. He is in favour of it and he wants

to make sure that British jobs are created from it and the contracts

will go to British companies. If that happens, the Labour Party will

be totally unified. Do you think your government can when people

around? I think what is important is closing down the North`South divide.

As the HS2 as important project to do that. The infrastructure for

transport in Leeds is nowhere near as good as elsewhere. The government

says that billions will be invested bringing the railway line to Leeds.

We have to support that that we have to make sure that is done correctly

and fairly and in the right way. You are confident, John Mann, that, ``

that investment in these codes mainline will not suffer? I am

already well on the case to insure that investment on the East Coast

railway line, all the lines across to the HS2, will not suffer.

That's about it from us. Thanks to our guests today John Mann

That's about it from us. Thanks to our guests today John Mann and Alec

Shelbrooke. Now let's go back to Andrew Neil

Welcome back. Now, the Government is not very good at predicting the

future. That's according to a report from a committee of MPs this morning

who say that its Horizon Scanning programme that's supposed to

identify potential threats, risks, emerging issues and opportunities

isn't much good at reading the tea leaves. But can it really be any

worse than our panel? Here they are predicting the future of then

culture secretary Maria Miller before Easter.

Can she survive? I'm getting out of the prediction game after I said

Nick Clegg would win the debates. But I almost think she might. If

there is a big event that moves this off the front pages. David Cameron

will want to keep Maria Miller until at least his summary shuffle. I

think they will get rid of her. I think they will do the decent thing

after exhausting all other options. Maria Miller resigned a few days

later of course! The best and the brightest, when did that slip in?

This week it will be exactly a year until the General Election, so what

better time to get our panel to gaze into their crystal balls again.

What's the outcome of the election in 2015? I'm going to go with the

polls and say Ed Miliband as the Prime Minister. But the polls are

only a snapshot of opinion now, you think they will be the same in a

year? No, I think they will narrow. I think UKIP's vote share will fall.

I think they are currently coasting on a high and that will tailor way

so they won't take as many votes off the Tories. Labour with a majority

or is the largest party. Another liberal Conservative coalition, and

I say that because he is already in touching distance of Labour. I don't

think UKIP will get 15, maybe half of that, and most of the votes they

lose will either not vote at all go to the Tories and that should be

enough to be the biggest party in a hung parliament I don't envisage a

Tory majority. I am also going to go with the polls. For Ed Miliband to

be hoping to win at this stage, he has got to be way ahead in the

polls. Labour needs to be much further ahead if he is going to win

so David Cameron, probably the leader of the largest party. Last

time after the election David Cameron went to the 1922 committee

and announced he was Prime Minister as head of the Coalition. He has

agreed this time he will consult them and it will be much more

difficult for him to get a coalition. People at home have now

concluded there will be a Liberal Democrat landslide! Are we going to

have debates? Yes, probably further away from polling day then last

time. That is the Liberal Democrat point, isn't it? Yes, it sucks all

the life out of the campaign, so the last six weeks will be left to

traditional campaigning. What did you make of this in the Sunday Times

this morning, this two, three, five formula. There should be a Cameron,

Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg debate, then there should be another one with

them and UKIP and the Greens. It might be testing the patience of the

nation to tune into all of those. If you're going to say Nigel Farage

should be there, the Green party should be too. They know that as

soon as you put them on a podium next to them, he looks like he has

equal stature and that is a problem. David Cameron does not want the

debates to happen on the way they happened last time. It is generally

regarded, Lynton Crosby believes they were a disaster for David

Cameron because they allowed Nick Clegg to be the fresh person. He

knows he cannot say no to them so the moment you see David Cameron

suggesting that Caroline Lucas should be in the debate, you know he

is not serious. What he will try to do is have more debates, have them

outside the main part of the general election so that it doesn't

dominate. The problem the David Cameron is that the campaign will be

much longer. It is a five-week campaign so it is quite difficult

for him to say we will only have one debate in that campaign. I think

smother it with love, hopefully it will go to the courts for him and

hopefully they will never happen and he will be delighted. The European

election and the local elections are coming up. The three mainstream

parties are saying it is a flash in the pan, they don't really matter

and so on, but if UKIP comes a strong first, if Labour comes a poor

second and the Tories come a poor third, it will have consequences for

all three, and the Lib Dems come forth or even fish. It will have

consequences and not just in the media but on the ground. One of the

big stories is what will happen to the Lib Dems, they face losing all

of their MEPs. A good result for them is lit -- in the local

elections is losing 250 councillors. These are the most interesting

elections we have had for some time. Are we heading for a Nick

Clegg summer leadership crisis? I think we are heading towards

reversing the clock back to where we were before the Eastleigh

by-election. That quiet and things down for Nick Clegg. If they lose

all their MEPs, and there is a real chance they will, Vince Cable will

be out on manoeuvres because age is not on his side. If he can say Nick

Clegg is a loser and a failure, he will be back. Will the Tories go

into headless chicken mode if they come third? Yes, if UKIP come first

there will not be as much panic as if Labour come first. Is Labour

comes a poor second, will there be some pressure on Ed Miliband to

reopen his attitude to the referendum? I don't think so and my

colleague was talking to Labour sources who said he is absolutely

not going to. That is something you can say definitely about him, he

decides on a course and he sticks to it. There is one potential upside

for David Cameron in a really bad Conservative results, it could

strengthen his hand in the renegotiations of Britain's EU

membership because he doesn't even need to say to Angela Merkel and

Francois Hollande it is there. David Cameron hasn't just been fighting

for his party into the local elections. He also got his knuckles

wrapped by the Speaker, John Bercow, at Prime Minister's Question Time,

for talking for too long. Take a look at this. There is a better

future ahead of us but we must not go backward to the policies that put

us in this mess in the first place. I don't know what they are paying

him, Mr Speaker. Order, order. I haven't finished! In response to

that question, the Prime Minister has finished and he can take it from

me that he has finished. I can't remember a speaker ever speaking to

a Prime Minister like that. Clearly in that case, John Bercow crossed a

line. It is Prime Minister 's questions, he is entitled to answer

the questions. There is really bad blood between those two, going back

a long way. They hate each other and the worrying thing about that was

the look of triumphalism on the speaker's face afterwards. He is a

remarkable, revolutionary speaker who has made the House of Commons

more relevant, he is holding the executive to account, but that look

on his face showed he had crossed the line. Does he survive after the

next election? He has improved the importance of the Commons, is that

enough to keep him in the Speaker 's chair? The most public bit of the

Commons is still the Prime Minister 's questions, and we can conclude

that John Bercow's interventions take more time than any delays he

complains about so I wouldn't be surprised if, in a few years' time,

someone else replaces him. He is quite popular with Labour, is he

not? Yes, he is married to a Labour activist and is notably sympathetic

to Labour but I think this is a difficult situation. David Cameron

also overstepped the line. As soon as the speaker says order, the idea

is that the House was to order and David Cameron pushed him. They are

both trying to score points off each other. We cover Prime Minister 's

questions every week on the daily politics, and there is a danger that

he sees it as an opportunity to do some grandstanding. You slightly

sends his vanity gets the better of him. It is supposed to be Prime

Minister 's questions. At the end of that session, the Speaker read out a

statement from the Chief clerk, and immensely respected figure, saying

he is taking early retirement. It is pretty clear that the reason he has

decided to go early is because he is finding it tricky to maintain a

cordial relationship with the speaker, and the speaker might want

to think about his man management skills. That's all for today. The

Daily Politics will be back on BBC Two at lunchtime from Tuesday

onwards. Remember, it is a bank holiday tomorrow. I'll be back here

at 11am next week. Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday

Politics.