04/05/2014 Sunday Politics Yorkshire and Lincolnshire

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Walls are being

re-painted in Belfast as Gerry Adams begins his fourth day in police

custody in connection with one of the most brutal and shocking murders

of the Troubles. That's our top story.

He may have got egg on his face this week but Nigel Farage is a serious

electoral threat in this month's elections. I'll ask the Conservative

Party Chairman Grant Shapps how worried he is.

And we're on the trail of Nick Clegg. You were voted the best

Stay with us for the Sunday Politics likely to be a good

Stay with us for the Sunday Politics in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. We

find out why there are calls for voters

in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. We find out why there are calls for

voters to be given more power to sack badly

debate what it means for London. And with me, as always, the best and

the brightest political panel in the business - Nick Watt, Helen Lewis

and Janan Ganesh. They'll be throwing metaphorical rotten eggs

into the twittersphere. First this morning - Gerry Adams,

President of Sinn Fein, has spent a fourth night in police custody after

he was arrested in connection with the killing of Jean McConville more

than 40 years ago. Sinn Fein has claimed that the arrest is

politically motivated coming, as it does, during local and European

election campaigns. Northern Ireland's deputy first minister,

Martin McGuinness, has indicated he might review the party's support for

policing in the province if Gerry Adams is charged. The Jean

McConville murder was one of the most notorious cases of the

Troubles. The widowed mother of ten was

kidnapped from her home in December 1972, never to be seen alive again.

The IRA denied involvement but in 1999 admitted it had murdered her

and several others, known as the Disappeared. Before his death, the

former IRA commander Brendan Hughes pointed the finger at Gerry Adams,

claiming: In April this year, either Bell was

charged with aiding and abetting the murder. -- Ivor Bell. Gerry Adams

has always insisted he is innocent of any part in the abduction and

killing all burial of Mrs McConville.

We were hoping to speak to the Northern Ireland Secretary, Theresa

Villiers, but having agreed to do an interview with us this morning, she

pulled out. But we are joined from Belfast by Sinn Fein's Alex Maskey.

Welcome to the Sunday Politics. And the police just doing their job by

questioning Gerry Adams? Gerry Adams said publicly some time ago that he

was available to speak to the police, but that is not what this is

about at the moment, because what we have here is clearly evidence in our

mind of political interference in what should be due process. Gerry

Adams made it clear some time ago he wanted to speak to the police, it

was available at any time, and yet that request was not taken up until

three weeks into an election and we believe that was deliberately

orchestrated by a small number of people. What evidence can you

present this morning that proves that claim? The direct circumstances

Gerry Adams finds himself in at the moment, take that in stark contrast

when they have dealt with members of the British Army for instance...

That is just circumstantial. The PSNI know that the soldiers involved

in that and a number of other high-profile killings of citizens

here, and not one of those people has been arrested. In fact any of

the people who were interviewed were interviewed by request. There was a

stark contrast, in terms of how they have dealt with the British military

involving state killings. We haven't got too much time. Sinn Fein said it

would review its support for the PSNI if Gerry Adams is charged. That

sounds like political interference in the police process. It's not

because we have a clear mandate from the people who elect us. Policing

has been an important part of the peace process here for many years,

Sinn Fein plays an important role in local policing partnerships. We

negotiate to make sure we have powers transferred here to elected

representatives in the north. It is a long way to go before we have

policing highly accountable, and making sure they deliver a very

impartial service. How will he react if Gerry Adams is charged? I am

still trying to get a clear answer. If Gerry Adams is charged, will you

withdraw support for the Northern Ireland police service? We view this

as a serious situation and a serious ongoing situation and we will

monitor how this pans out. We have a very important role to play to

support the police service here. We have done consistently, worked with

them on a daily basis, but we will not accept political interference by

a small number of people in the police who are undermining the

police. We will not accept political policing. If there was evidence, and

I emphasise the word if, because we have seen none, but if there were

evidence to justify Gerry Adams being charged, why should he not be

charged? It is my understanding from the family of Gerry Adams that there

has not been a single shred of evidence put forward. I understand

that, but if there was evidence, why should he not be charged? You put

that caveat yourself and then you expect me to speculate, there is no

way I will do that. The fact of the matter is there hasn't been one

single shred of evidence put to Gerry Adams in the last few days, in

fact what has been put to him is a range of issues of newspaper

cuttings, books, statements made from people, including from people

who didn't want their statements released until they have died.

who didn't want their statements was charged, again I emphasise the

word if, does the police process fall apart? The police process is a

fragile entity, it requires work and we have been saying this publicly

and privately with the Irish and British

and privately with the Irish and process has to be nurtured and

developed. We are not out of the woods yet. From a Republican point

of view we have been working flat out. I just wanted a quick answer to

my question, is a yes or no? What question I asking me? Is the peace

process in jeopardy? It is fragile and I am not going to have words put

into my mouth but I don't want to use. It has to be worked out and

nurtured. Thank you for joining us. Nick Watt, you were a Northern

Ireland correspondent like myself in days gone by. Where is this going to

go? It shows how challenging the peace process is because on the one

hand you have the unspeakable pain of the McConville family, but you

also have the danger of not having mechanisms to deal with the past.

South Africa is a good example, you have to have some mechanism to deal

with the past because if you don't, you are going to have, as Sinn Fein

have now, someone in a police cell but you don't have the arrests of

the Bloody Sunday soldiers. Paramilitary prisoners were released

after two years... We have seen no action against somebody accused of

the Hyde Park bombings, it is not a one-way street. We have the

decommissioning of IRA weapons by the IRA, therefore destroying

crucial evidence. You have these inconsistencies because you don't

have an mechanism for dealing with the past, but doing that is really

difficult because of the pain of real people. Don't you get a feeling

that here in London they are hoping he will not be charged? Definitely

because it would be nice if everything went away, but the civil

case of the family is taken out of the hands of the police. You can see

here a real failure in Westminster to see this as anything other than

settled. David Cameron we know sees himself as a chairman. I was

speaking to a friend in Northern Ireland who said he has never met

Gerry Adams and I think this is very revealing. They consider this as a

settled issue that will not trouble Westminster again. It would be, but

the relatives of the disappeared don't want it to be settled. This

points to the reality that the Belfast agreement probably had to be

done, but the moral price at which it was purchased was far greater

than we were willing to admit during the euphoria. For a country that

prides itself by the rule of law to tolerate the early release of

prisoners and former pal and military -- paramilitaries, I think

was a very serious matter. As for the PSNI, it only exists because its

predecessor failed to command the confidence of the nationalist

community. It is a very big deal if even the PSNI ends up falling into

the same trap. We have to is leave it there I'm afraid. It was the

Conservative's local election campaign launch on Friday, and what

did David Cameron focus on? Burning local issues like the state of our

roads, rubbish collection or care of the elderly? No. It was Europe. The

Prime Minister re-iterated again his promise of an in-out referendum on

our membership of the EU in 2017. And it's being reported this morning

that he will share a platform with Nigel Farage in a pre-general

election debate. Here's what the UKIP leader had to say about the

issue when he was on the Marr Show this morning with Ed Miliband. David

Cameron very often makes these vague promises, then doesn't deliver

afterwards. I don't think he has any intention of allowing me into any of

these debates. Perhaps Ed Miliband wants to debate? We have got to have

the TV debates as we did join the last general election. I think David

Cameron is doing everything he can to wriggle out of them. It is up to

the broadcasters but whether they invite Nigel. My main desire is that

the debates go ahead. We are joined now by Grant Shapps. Will he be

included? The debates were not without problems, they took place

during the campaign period and disrupted the flow of the campaign,

taking it out of the regions, people getting to speak to the leaders so a

longer period for that would be helpful. I think they are good idea

and they should go ahead, but all of the negotiation about who is

involved is yet to happen. So it is not a done deal that Nigel Farage

will be included? That needs to be negotiated with the TV companies.

The Conservatives believe we should have debates, but exactly the format

and the timing, all of the -- that will be debated in the autumn, but

first we have European elections, the Queen 's speech and a Scottish

referendum. The local election campaign was launched on Friday. Why

did you talk more about Europe than local councils? Both are important.

The local elections are critically important for people, their local

services. It is easy to forget, for example, that the council tax has

been largely frozen since this Government came to power, a big

contrast to Dublin under the previous Labour government. So why

did you go on and on about Europe? Let me show you the poster used to

launch your local election campaign. There it is, and in-out referendum

on Europe, the day of the local elections, where is the word local?

Is it in small print? I hear what you're saying, I am happy to be here

to talk about the local elections. But you are right, they are on the

same day, and not many people know that only by voting conservative can

you get an in-out referendum. -- Conservative. UKIP cannot deliver,

we can, it is the same date, so people... This was the launch of the

local election campaign. Why does the Prime Minister have to keep on

promising something he has already promised? The actual referendum

would be in 2017. He promised it before, he keeps repeating it

because he knows people don't really trust him. I think it is a question

of the fact that, actually, unless you remind people that the pledges

there, that the only way to get an in-out referendum is to vote for

it, this is a critical moment at which we need people to vote for

that referendum if they want it. It is not the case, as I saw this

morning, being said by Nigel Farage, that a referendum was promised

before and not delivered. There was no referendum in the last manifesto.

There will be in the next one. There was a cast-iron guarantee, in the

Sun in 2006. Let's just clear that up... Once the Lisbon Treaty... In

the Sun article, he said, we will have a referendum on the Lisbon

Treaty. Clearly, because that treaty had been passed before the general

election, it is difficult to have a referendum on something in the past.

We joined Europe in the 1970s, having a referendum on that! Look,

that is about the future. Our relationship with Europe is

absolutely critical. Most people in this country feel, I was not old

enough to vote in that referendum, most of those who voted, they voted

for a Common Market, that is not what we have got. We want to

continue the work we have been doing in the EU Budget, what did UKIP do?

They voted against it. We want more of those powers brought home, and we

will put it to a referendum, and people will have to vote

Conservative to get it. We have been looking at new research, almost two

thirds of Conservative members are considering voting for UKIP, almost

two thirds. I have a simple message here, which is this. If you vote for

UKIP... Can we have it up? 30% are likely, 30% are possible. That is

why it is important we are making these arguments. If you vote for

UKIP, you are voting to take us further away from returning powers

to this country, further from a referendum. It is support for Ed

Miliband becoming Prime Minister, and he will do exactly what Labour

have always done - hand away powers, and away the rebate for nothing in

return, giving Europe even more so over the day-to-day affairs in

Britain. Why are so many people considering voting UKIP? It is to

hold your feet to the fire, they do not trust you on a referendum, so

they will vote UKIP to force you to tap in your line. We have a very

tough line. If I had said four years ago that this government would

manage to cut the overall EU budget, would take us out of the

bailout fund that Labour got us into, passing a law that no more

powers can go to Europe without a referendum, if I had said that,

people would say, I do not believe it will happen. Not only have we

done these things, we are promising and in-out referendum, and the only

way to get it is to vote Conservative. Nigel Farage has

said, we can't change anything in Europe, and it is no wonder that the

president of the European Commission has said, we love having these UKIP

MEPs, because they don't turn up and vote, apart from when they vote

against the cut in the budget. It goes beyond UKIP in your party,

because this research also showed that those Conservative members most

likely to vote for UKIP, they said they do not feel valued or respected

by their own leadership, and they regard David Cameron as ideological

eat more remote from them than UKIP. What I would say is look at that

list... Let me take that step further. What people need our series

solutions to serious problems. When people vote for a UKIP MEP, I will

say, which one of the 40% of the MEPs who got in for UKIP last time

are you voting for, the ones above left or defected, the ones have gone

to jail? 40% have ended up not delivering. People have a right to

know what to expect when they vote in these elections. They can look at

our record at home, and this goes to the point you have raised about what

we have done in Britain to get this economy back on track, recover from

Labour's recession. We are prepared to take those decisions in Europe as

well. Presumably, active Conservative members, they know

that, so why do they not feel valued by the leadership? I spend time

going up and down the country meeting Conservative members, and

they are on the doorstep, last weekend 150 out in Enfield

campaigning for the European and local elections... Why are they keen

on UKIP? When I meet somebody who says that, not necessarily a

member... Have you met members of say they will vote UKIP? No, but a

vote for UKIP is... Do not do it, you will end up with Labour having

more control, handing away powers to Europe. 51-year-old meeting members

who say they will vote UKIP, you must be out of touch. -- if you are

not meeting members. Some of your members are thinking of voting UKIP.

I spend huge amount of time travelling around, I just told you

about this action day in Enfield, where we had an enormous turnout.

Those members were on the doorsteps pointing out that you can only get

reform in Europe by voting Conservative. Labour and the Lib

Dems will not deliver, UKIP can't, Conservatives will. You have not got

that message across, because a YouGov poll shows, on Europe, who

has the best policies? Tories 18%, Labour 19%, UKIP 27%. On the

economy, Tories 27%, Labour 23, UKIP 4. Why don't you shut up about

Europe and talk about the economy? Look, on the 27th of May, we have

European elections, as well as local elections. If I don't talk about the

European elections, you would say what you said at the beginning about

not talking about the local elections! These are serious

elections, and the point I am tried to make is that the issues at stake

are not peripheral, they are not unimportant. Our MEPs have been

battling to cut red tape from a European level on small businesses,

the same thing this government has been doing for small businesses

domestic league, where for example every small business owner watching

this show knows they have got ?2000 back in employment announced on

national insurance contributions. We are doing it at home, we are doing

it in Europe, and it is important to tie that together. Ireland that Mr

Cameron saying, you should stop banging on about Europe... -- I

remember. This is before the last general election, as in days for the

Lib Dems, 18%. Even then, you didn't win the election, and now you are

only three or four points ahead, it doesn't look good for you, does it?

Even then, the poll did not turn out to be what it was on the day. No,

that is what happens, that is the voting intentions now! You are in a

worse position than a year before the last election, which you didn't

win. We are almost proving the point that you can take a clip at any

moment in time, not sounding like a politician, but the only poll that

matters is on the day. In just over a year's time, people will have a

completely different picture to look at than these opinion polls. We have

an economy from being a basket case, the great Labour recession

knocking 7% of this economy, hurting every family, to a point where we

the fastest-growing economy in the developed world. In a year's time, I

hope people will see that we are the people who've taken the difficult

decisions, got the economy to the right place, more security for you

and your family. Do not give the car keys back to the people who crashed

it in the first place. If I had a pound for every time I have heard

that! It is clearly not getting through. On the Pfizer attempted of

AstraZeneca, Mr Miliband called this morning for a tougher public

interest test such big takeovers. Do you agree with that or not? Let me

be absolutely clear, if there is any kind of joining, we are in favour of

British jobs, British aren't deep, expanding our pharmaceutical sector.

-- R But what Mr Mallon and wants to do with rent caps, he is

anti-business. -- Mr Miliband. He wants to take us back to the bad old

those. -- bad old days. Should there be a bigger public interest test? We

have seen some takeovers that people have criticised, but others, like

Bentley, Land Rover, which have been very successful. Should there be a

tougher test?! We will have tests that ensured this get-together

becomes a great Anglo-American project, or it doesn't happen, but

the Miliband approach is simply to be anti-business, anti-jobs and

anti-job security. Grant Shapps, thank you.

A challenging week for the Liberal Democrats with a local election

campaign overshadowed by another row with the Conservatives about knife

crime. Adam has spent the day with Nick Clegg on the campaign trail.

How nice! Nick Clegg is taking me on a political mini break to the

Cotswolds. Yes, we are getting the train. He wants to highlight what

his party is doing in local government, and a personal passion

of his in Europe. Graham Watson, the Lib Dem MEP for the south-west, has

been running a campaign to have prunes recognised as a laxative. Is

that Lib Dems battling for Britain in Europe? It is not our front page

manifesto commitment! It is one of many things that Graham does, he

does many other things. In fact, he is a good example of an MEP who took

a pioneering role, for instance, in making sure... There is the proven

world, but also the crime-fighting role. -- prune. He has done work to

make sure that when British criminals flee justice, we can bring

them back. And he has promoted prunes! First stop, a gorgeous

country pub, but it turns out everyone is a journalist or a very

on message activist. Dark days, being a Lib Dem in the last few

years? Strangely not. If you find you are a Lib Dem deep down, you do

not get that disheartened, because you know that, locally, you are

doing so well for the people that you live next door to that,

actually, I find I am almost impervious to what happens on a

national level. I am mayor of Cirencester. Have you taken any

leadership lessons from Nick Clegg, inspiring new in your leadership of

Cirencester? I think what he has demonstrated his patience. It has

been a tough time, he has taken a lot of flak, and as the mayor of a

town, lots of people agree with you and a fair few don't. You are a full

on mayor, he is just a Deputy Prime Minister, do you outrank him? I

don't think so, he is in government, I am not. So our there any normal

people in here? We are from Swindon, you cannot get more

abnormal. Are you a big fan of his? No! What has he done wrong? I don't

believe in his views at all. Where has he got to? Nigel Farage would

have had a pint! At this time in the morning a copy was more appropriate.

I have no time for a drink of any kind, because now we are off to look

at a local traffic blackspot. This is amazing, like a Lib Dem election

leaflet brought to life, Lib Dems pointing at a road. High-vis

jackets! Next we had to giggle full bath, but there will be no Regency

sightseeing for us, oh no, Nick is taking us to an abandoned

wilderness. We have just had a health and safety briefing, we have

been told to look out for dive-bombing seagulls and an angry

fox. That is the sort of thing Nick Clegg has to put up with. He wants

to talk about the economy but he has to dodge the day's beat new story,

letters leaked by a Tory suggesting that Lib Dems are soft on knife

crime. Isn't that a new kind of warfare? I just think it is silly.

They may think they are clever by catching some headlines but they are

not helping people who worry about knife crime, like I do. We work

together... Just like the Coalition! This is a co-working

space where different businesses share the same office. My time with

the Deputy Prime Minister is drawing to a close. We haven't talked about

the most important story of the week, that you were voted the best

looking party leader and the most likely to be a good cook. Right,

this is news to me and I can guarantee you that my scepticism of

opinion polls has just been confirmed. Just as well because the

more serious polls don't look great for him or his party. Goodbye, and

thanks for the offer of a ride home!

He is still walking. Malcolm Bruce joins us now. According to Lib Dem

briefing documents, you are likely to choose -- lose a big chunk of

your MEPs. If you lose a lot, what would that say about a party that

boasts of its pro-Europe credentials? It would be

disappointing because we have the most hard-working MEPs. The worry

that we have is that people think the European Parliament is not

important but it takes decisions that affect us. They would be

disappointing for Britain as well as the Liberal Democrats. Isn't the

problem that the more you bang on about your pro-European credentials,

the more you slip in the polls? I do think so, we have two weeks to go

and we are campaigning extremely hard. You are forced in the polls. I

can tell you there are people out there who do believe Britain should

stay in the EU and they are worried that other parties will take us out.

The Liberal Democrats are clear, we want to stay in, we will work for

reform and do it effectively. If you lose the Liberal Democrats,

Britain's influence in Europe will be weakened. Your track record in

Europe shows you have been spectacularly wrong again and again.

In your 2009 manifesto you said the European Central Bank and the euro

have been tried and tested over ten years providing a clear picture of

the benefits of Eurozone membership and that proved to be nonsense. It

was nonsense everywhere. Every developed bank in the world was

tried and tested and failed. Europe may not be perfect, but the question

people have to decide is if we are going to leave Europe and be

isolated on RM, or use our influence to reform it from inside. We have

allies, you work with them, that is something the Lib Dems do better

than any other parties. Your 2004 manifesto, you claim that being

outside the euro would lead to job losses and reduced prosperity. You

were just plain wrong, weren't you? Yes, but the reason is that to some

extent the euro did not observe any rules and regulations when it was

set up. That is why we never recommended Britain should join at

the outset because the criteria had not been met. In 2001 Nick Clegg was

writing to the Financial Times... Your track record is important. He

wrote that the Tisch monetary policy is not all it is cracked up to be.

Britain would gain greater control over its affairs by joining the

euro. How wrong can he be? We have always argued that the currency had

to abide by strict criteria. It hasn't done so and that is one of

the reasons it has failed. We recognise there is no future for

Britain joining the euro and we are not advocating it. Lets put your

2010 manifesto on the screen. I didn't say it was not our long-term

interest. If Europe succeeds as an entity, if the euro becomes one of

the world leading currencies, there will come a point when it may be

justified. In the circumstances we are in the moment, there is no

recommended timescale. Let's get this right. Despite the Eurozone

crisis which has cost millions of jobs, countries that were teetering

on the brink of bankruptcy, the Eurozone now facing stagnation and

some countries on the brink of deflation, you still won't rule out

Britain joining? We are ruling it out in the foreseeable future. You

can miss the point that we are working as a coalition partner in

government that has secured recovery for the UK, and working as Liberal

Democrats in the parliament that have cut back the European budget in

cooperation with others. What would the world look like if it were right

for Britain to join the euro? You have 27 states at the moment, with

too many countries still struggling to meet the criteria so until you

have a strong and cohesive enough single Eurozone in which all the

countries can meet that criteria, Britain is better off out. So a more

centralised Eurozone, that is what you would like Britain to join? No,

because it can only happen by consent. Any circumstances in which

any further powers would be transferred from the UK to the EU,

we would support a referendum. You have just said that for the Eurozone

to work, it has to be more centralised and you said if that

happens, that is what Britain would join. I didn't say that, I said it

would require the consent of all member states to agree to the

criteria. We certainly do not envisage joining in the foreseeable

future. Since you are the proud party of in, why weren't you just

give us a referendum on in or out? Because it has to have a context.

What David Cameron is doing is dangerous because I think the major

players like Britain and France are not keen on the idea of being

bullied into reforms on the instigation of just one member state

which is threatening possibility to withdraw. They will have to agree to

rules... Just have it now. Do you want in or out? To have a referendum

against no background is to put it out of context. We are in the middle

of a crisis, a year away from the general election. We have made it

clear... You said we are in the middle of the Eurozone crisis? So we

are not in the middle of it? What's the middle? The reality is that the

Western world has gone through a deep crisis. The UK is coming out of

it, the Eurozone is coming out of it. Greece have been able to borrow

on the markets in recent weeks which is a sign of success. It is in our

interest is the Eurozone succeeds and recovers and we should be part

of it but not necessarily on the same conditions as everyone else.

The Liberal Democrats work with others to deliver Britain's

interests and if they are not there, their interests will be undermined.

You are watching Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland

Hello. You are watching the Sunday now.

Hello. You are watching the Sunday Politics for Yorkshire, Lincolnshire

and the North Midlands. Coming up, we find out why there are calls for

voters to be given more powers to sack MPs who behave badly. Let's say

hello to our guests today. Alec Shelbrooke, and John Mann. Hello to

you both. We are talking about MPs behaving badly. You said this week

that sexual harassment that `` at Westminster is a significant

problem. What is your evidence? What I say and what I have seen. It has

been there a long time and is not as bad as it was, but has not gone

away. The problem is exacerbated because there is no system for

dealing with it. People don't know where to go so people get away with

stuff that is a bit dodgy and they can carry on. What sort of things

are you talking about? I am not commenting about people's general

behaviour, who is doing what with whom. This is about misuse of

power, people misusing power concerns me. That is a problem that

has existed and still does. Is that your experience, Alec Shelbrooke, of

life at Westminster, ? It is not my experience but I think that people

who work with MPs should be able to report them to an HR department. It

is a peculiar setup in Westminster of quite unprofessional ways in,

being crammed into tiny offices with a group of people reporting just to

the MP. I think there is a need to professionalise it not of the way

the place works. Some would say the resignation of

the Newark MP Patrick Mercer this week over a cash`for`questions

scandal has further dented the battered reputation of parliament.

Voters in his constituency will however get the chance to elect a

new MP in a by`election. But in most cases voters have no power

whatsoever to sack their MP if they've misbehaved and many believe

that should change. Here's Sharon Edwards.

The recent resignation of Maria Miller over her expenses claims

brought back bitter memories for many voters. It is five years since

the expenses scandal first rocked Westminster when it was revealed

that some MPs had claimed four moats, duck houses and, in the case

of former Scunthorpe MP Elliot Morley, thousands of pounds for a

mortgage that did not exist. So do the people of Scunthorpe believe the

politicians have cleaned up their act? I think they are all out to

feather their own nests. I think there should be more transparency in

their spending. Anybody that works has to account for everything,

expenses, fuel etc, why should they be any different? Crooked. Yeah,

corrupt and crooked. We are paying for everything. They get away with

it. The government recently shelved plans to introduce a power of recall

where voters could be given the power to sack their MP. But a

campaign led by conservative Zac Goldsmith aims to force the issue

back onto the political agenda. I think it is time that we put power

back in the hands of citizens who elect us for five`year terms, which

is a long time, which is something I don't actually support. So I think

if MPs have done wrong or they have failed their constituents, there

needs to be a mechanism to allow members of public to recall their

members of Parliament. The latest proposal suggests a system where a

petition signed by at least 20% of the electorate in a constituency

would trigger a referendum on the future of an MP. If more than half

of voters support the recall of the MP, then a by`election would have to

be called. I think there are a lot of MPs who worked incredibly hard

and do a very, very good job for their constituency. This is not

about saying that all MPs are bad. It is saying that there needs to be

a safety valve in our political system that where there is an issue,

voters can have a say. At the moment, if there is a scandal,

whether about expenses, Douglas Hogg's moat, or Patrick Mercer's

lobbying, political parties can have a say, they can withdraw the whip.

`` Patrick Mercer and lobbying. Parliament can have an enquiry and

reach a conclusion about appropriate sanctions. But the voters of the

constituency are left out of that process entirely. Opinion polls

suggest that the reputation of MPs has improved little since the

expenses scandal. Many believe Parliament could do more to put its

house in order. John Mann, do voters need to be

given the power of recall and sack MPs who behave badly? Of course they

should. There is a word for it, democracy. It has been lacking. If

Patrick Mercer had been suspended, he has been suspended for six

months, if he hadn't resigned, people of new work would not have

had an MP for six months. That is nonsensical. The Coalition

Government promised us this, they said it would happen before the next

election, but they have dropped the plans? Are you running scared? It is

a mystery to me why it was dropped. It was in the manifesto and I

supported. Exactly what John said. It is unreasonable to expect an MP

who get sanctioned by the health authorities, get suspended, could

carry on in that seat. The game is up. Go and have a referendum, have

the right of recall. There are all sorts of questions which need to be

cleared up. Parliament would like the commission to look into MPs. The

fact that the standards commission and Parliament was saying perhaps

Maria Miller does not need to playback `` payback ?45,000...

45,000? It is an enormous sum of money! It was a number of weeks

before she did it. And I disagreed. I think it is absolutely right that

there should be some sort of right to recall in those situations. John

Mann, a `` are you prepared to support that Goldsmith? I will and I

think it is needed. Maria Miller should be out there. The people of

Basingstoke added big public meeting. They want a say. They want

a chance to vote her out. They should have that right. It is five

years on from the expensive scandal, before you went to Parliament. How

do you improve the image of parliament? People still think you

are a bunch of crooks. The relationship is broken. You need to

try to let people have a say when something has gone wrong. You are

dreaming if there is `` if you think there is something that we can do

where people will think that politicians are not just out to help

them in pockets. We can give more power to people but don't think they

will think differently from now. How would you improve the image, John

Mann? As every MP had said, it is answering the questions that people

like yourself ask! But even with that people like yourself ask! But

even without, it will take a long time to heal this relationship. Do

you have a moat? It is difficult to get a moat around a terraced house.

Campaigning is under way for the European elections which take place

on May 22nd. With Britain's future in Europe the subject of much

debate, Len Tingle has been back to a West Yorkshire village which held

its own referendum on whether we should remain part of the EU.

The mighty European Union. 28 countries, half a billion

population, breathtakingly grand institutional buildings and ?120

billion annual budget. The parish of Crigglestone. Five

small villages, 9000 population, turn`of`the`century parish hall and

an annual budget of just ?14,000. `` ?40,000. But back in 2007, a chunk

of that budget had to be spent holding a local referendum on the

question of whether we really should be part of the European Union. So

why is it that it tiny little place like this was holding a referendum

on EU mothership at all? Well, it was because anti`European Union

campaigners spotted a loophole in the 1972 Local Government Act. It

said that if ten people, just ten, signed a petition, then they could

force the parish council to hold a referendum on any subject at all.

And that subject was sparked by the then Labour Prime Minister Gordon

Brown. He joined other prime ministers and presidents and signed

a new agreement on how the European Union should be governed and grow.

But he refused to hold a national referendum on the issue. And that is

where Crigglestone came in. One of five tiny parishes across England

where angry opponents of the European Union forced their own

referendums to be held to put the issue into the national headlines.

The driving force behind the controversial moves to force the

parish to hold a referendum was former Olympic rower Alex Story. He

was then prospective Conservative Party candidate for the constituency

of Wakefield. `` the year respective Conservative Party `` the

Eurosceptic. At the time, he denied it was a political stunt and a waste

of time. Despite the Conservatives campaigning hard, only around 500

bothered to vote, less than 10%. But of those that did, an overwhelming

majority backed what was in effect a call for an immediate national

referendum on our EU membership. An issue that clearly hasn't gone away.

We want to govern our own country, make our own laws, control our own

borders... Nigel Farage's UKIP were not part of that referendum seven

years ago, but they did use the same loophole in other similar parish

referendums across the country. And on a far larger stage, Nigel Farage

was beating the same drum at his launch of this year's election

campaign in Sheffield. In fact, only the Liberal Democrats are ruling out

any sort of referendum on UK membership. We need to vote to get

Labour candidates in the town halls and Labour MPs in the European

Parliament. Labour launched its campaign in Dewsbury this week and

even as its candidates highlighted the importance of its membership,

one senior Labour MP, Bassetlaw's John Mann, was urging the party to

set up a date for a referendum. And as for the Conservatives, Alex Story

is now one of its candidates for the European elections. With the

leadership flatly denying it has a problem with the issue of a

referendum. We passed a law that gives this country a referendum

lock. No more powers going over to Brussels without a referendum for

the British people. So, almost seven years on, should that tiny

Crigglestone referendum be reassessed? A political stunt, or a

trailblazer? We have also been joined by Julio

Gash. She is an award`winning entrepreneur from Sheffield. Ten

years ago, you stood as a Lib Dem candidate in the European elections.

Why do you think that we have become more Eurosceptic in the last decade?

I think there are issues which have not been answered by national

politicians and by European politicians. We need answers and

those answers are not thinking indicated clearly. As such, it is

allowing an open field for like Nigel Farage. What sort of questions

are you talking about? Questions like, how is Europe run? It is very

very, very opaque. I was saying this ten years ago, people are not

knowing what is going on. It allows people to fill the vacuum and bring

in scare stories. Where there are gaps in people's knowledge, there is

fear. You had a referendum, what were the results? 50% to leave the

EU, some don't knows. That is similar to a survey I had six or

seven years ago. That was not overall in favour. The consistency

there `` there is consistency there. The issue that emerges is

immigration. We shouldn't hide away from it. The issue on the doorstep

is not that power of its power, a minority are interested in that. It

is about immigration, people feeling that there is too much. David

Cameron has been all over the TV and the newspapers talking about

immigration. Is he running scared of UKIP? Not at all. He has said that

we will have an in out referendum if there is a Conservative majority

after the next election. We brought forward air a `` a bill about having

a referendum which was defeated. But all the issues we are talking about

boil down to the fact whether people want to be in and out of Europe. We

should look at the Scottish referendum, things which now have

front`page coverage. It ties into the argument that area is not

explored, stories are not explain. When you have a referendum, when

there is something coming around the corner, all sides of the argument

put forward. That is very important on its own. So do you welcome

Cameron Potter promise of a referendum? Not necessarily, and the

example of Crigglestone shows why this is the case. You get people

with extreme views who will manipulate it for their own agenda

`` agenda. People did not turn up and it was a very costly exercise.

We work for people at a local level and an international level. I don't

think that a referendum what's all that is you. Politicians are

accountable for communicating on all issues, national or European. They

do not. Immigration is an issue which has not been debated but a

referendum is not the place for that. John Mann, you have written to

your party leader demanding a referendum. Why do think he is

wrong? Advising politely! I am in favour of having that debate is

separate from elections. The problem is this. The Tories say they want a

referendum, but on what? They want a more flexible labour market, more

zero hours contracts and more agency workers. That is exactly what is

fuelling the debate. People want less agencies, no zero hour

contracts. They don't want this flexible labour market and neither

do why. That is their big problem with immigration. People have

nothing against Eastern Europeans, they just think that it is driving

down jobs and wages. My job, my wages. Agencies are undermining that

more. Cameron and UKIP want more of it. What Cameron should do is get

that sorted and the public would say, good on you. I will let Alec

Shelbrooke answer that. If you look at our plans, we want to renegotiate

border controls. We don't deserve free movement of trade, we have free

movement of people moving to enjoy benefits. That leads to immigration

becoming a problem. It is 5% on average, in my constituency of

people I speak to, so it is not a scientific poll, say that they went

into a common market and they want a common market. They don't want

federalisation. Whatever the discussion is, whatever happens, the

British people are not going to be satisfied until they are given a

choice of in or out. Julio Gash? I think the issue of immigration and

jobs is a bit of a funny one because at the end of the day, what will

happen if we are not in Europe, what will happen to the factories which

are supposedly employing all these immigrants? Where are they going to

find the people to fill those jobs would be productivity level and the

wage level? Were there be in this country or will this companies

relocate `` will those companies relocate to Poland? You have to see

to businesses as to how they would respond. Briefly, I would say that

is an argument in favour of staying. None of these arguments will come to

the fork until there is a referendum about in or out. How do you get

people in places like Sheffield to love Europe? Being at the heart of

Europe means jobs. We need to export to Europe, it is our biggest market.

We need to make an export things that is what makes Yorkshire great.

That is what makes Britain great. I'll be hosting a radio debate on

the European elections, with some of the candidates standing in the

Yorkshire and Humber region. That will be on Thursday lunchtime from

12 noon on BBC Radio Humberside, BBC Radio Leeds, BBC Radio Sheffield and

BBC Radio York. Tweet me at iredalepolitics if you want to put

question to the candidates. Again that's the Yorkshire and Humber

debate from 12 noon on Thursday. Let's get some more of the week's

political news now. Louise Martin has our round`up in 60 seconds.

Skipton Conservative MP Julian Smith blasted a quarter of Yorkshire's MPs

who either voted against HS2 or failed to vote at all. He says that

the county is in danger of overlooking a phenomenal

opportunity, a ?50 billion scheme which the Shadow Transport Secretary

and Wakefield MP Mary Cray said the Labour Party would back, but with

caveats. There is no blank cheque. The biggest risk to the project is

political, political delay. Further prayers were said for the

family of Ann McGuire, the Leeds teacher who was killed on Monday. ``

will be said today. Praise was poured on the dedication of the

loving teacher and mother and the close`knit community around Corpus

Christi which she helped to create. Firefighters across Yorkshire have

been taking strike action this weekend as part of a long`running

dispute over pensions. The Fire Brigades' Union members walked out

over changes to pensions and their retirement age. The government

claims that firefighters have a generous pension scheme.

Alec Shelbrooke, you'll Conservative colleague, Julian Smith, says

Yorkshire people are not in the zest enough about HS2. I think he said

Yorkshire MPs are not enthusiastic enough. Some others abstained on

Monday night. It is important project for the city of lead but it

cannot be built on the backs of hard`working people's losing equity

`` loss of equity in their houses. The government has moved from where

it was not far enough. Therefore, it was not enough to vote down, but it

was not enough metres aborted. John Mann, you are sceptical and HS2? I'm

not bothered about houses in the Cotswolds. I want all the contracts

going to British companies to do the manufacturing and building. That is

not in there, I want that built`in, that every single job that comes

from this will go into British workers including in the North of

England, including Bassetlaw. So why did 15 Yorkshire MPs at staying on

that vote? Surely you should have put your money where your mouth is?

I have. I have said exactly why I will support the Project for Leeds.

I will wait until it is good for my constituency, I couldn't care less

about the Cotswolds. M Stich runs have seen their houses devastated

and until there is a compensation package in place, I cannot bring

myself to say yes to this. It was just phase one, but it is important

that we get these things right at the start so that when the project

comes along, people are not losing out. Do you think people are

confused on Labour's position on this? There were discouraging noises

from Ed Balls. Now Mary Cray says she's behind the project. We don't

know Labour stands. I think Ed Miliband has been clear all along.

He is in favour of it and he wants to make sure that British jobs are

created from it and the contracts will go to British companies. If

that happens, the Labour Party will be totally unified. Do you think

your government can when people around? I think what is important is

closing down the North`South divide. As the HS2 as important project to

do that. The infrastructure for transport in Leeds is nowhere near

as good as elsewhere. The government says that billions will be invested

bringing the railway line to Leeds. We have to support that that we have

to make sure that is done correctly and fairly and in the right way. You

are confident, John Mann, that, `` that investment in these codes

mainline will not suffer? I am already well on the case to insure

that investment on the East Coast railway line, all the lines across

to the HS2, will not suffer. That's about it from us. Thanks to

our guests today John Mann That's about it from us. Thanks to

our guests today John Mann and Alec Shelbrooke. Now let's go back to

Andrew Neil Welcome back. Now, the Government is

not very good at predicting the future. That's according to a report

from a committee of MPs this morning who say that its Horizon Scanning

programme that's supposed to identify potential threats, risks,

emerging issues and opportunities isn't much good at reading the tea

leaves. But can it really be any worse than our panel? Here they are

predicting the future of then culture secretary Maria Miller

before Easter. Can she survive? I'm getting out of

the prediction game after I said Nick Clegg would win the debates.

But I almost think she might. If there is a big event that moves this

off the front pages. David Cameron will want to keep Maria Miller until

at least his summary shuffle. I think they will get rid of her. I

think they will do the decent thing after exhausting all other options.

Maria Miller resigned a few days later of course! The best and the

brightest, when did that slip in? This week it will be exactly a year

until the General Election, so what better time to get our panel to gaze

into their crystal balls again. What's the outcome of the election

in 2015? I'm going to go with the polls and say Ed Miliband as the

Prime Minister. But the polls are only a snapshot of opinion now, you

think they will be the same in a year? No, I think they will narrow.

I think UKIP's vote share will fall. I think they are currently coasting

on a high and that will tailor way so they won't take as many votes off

the Tories. Labour with a majority or is the largest party. Another

liberal Conservative coalition, and I say that because he is already in

touching distance of Labour. I don't think UKIP will get 15, maybe half

of that, and most of the votes they lose will either not vote at all go

to the Tories and that should be enough to be the biggest party in a

hung parliament I don't envisage a Tory majority. I am also going to go

with the polls. For Ed Miliband to be hoping to win at this stage, he

has got to be way ahead in the polls. Labour needs to be much

further ahead if he is going to win so David Cameron, probably the

leader of the largest party. Last time after the election David

Cameron went to the 1922 committee and announced he was Prime Minister

as head of the Coalition. He has agreed this time he will consult

them and it will be much more difficult for him to get a

coalition. People at home have now concluded there will be a Liberal

Democrat landslide! Are we going to have debates? Yes, probably further

away from polling day then last time. That is the Liberal Democrat

point, isn't it? Yes, it sucks all the life out of the campaign, so the

last six weeks will be left to traditional campaigning. What did

you make of this in the Sunday Times this morning, this two, three, five

formula. There should be a Cameron, Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg debate, then

there should be another one with them and UKIP and the Greens. It

might be testing the patience of the nation to tune into all of those. If

you're going to say Nigel Farage should be there, the Green party

should be too. They know that as soon as you put them on a podium

next to them, he looks like he has equal stature and that is a problem.

David Cameron does not want the debates to happen on the way they

happened last time. It is generally regarded, Lynton Crosby believes

they were a disaster for David Cameron because they allowed Nick

Clegg to be the fresh person. He knows he cannot say no to them so

the moment you see David Cameron suggesting that Caroline Lucas

should be in the debate, you know he is not serious. What he will try to

do is have more debates, have them outside the main part of the general

election so that it doesn't dominate. The problem the David

Cameron is that the campaign will be much longer. It is a five-week

campaign so it is quite difficult for him to say we will only have one

debate in that campaign. I think smother it with love, hopefully it

will go to the courts for him and hopefully they will never happen and

he will be delighted. The European election and the local elections are

coming up. The three mainstream parties are saying it is a flash in

the pan, they don't really matter and so on, but if UKIP comes a

strong first, if Labour comes a poor second and the Tories come a poor

third, it will have consequences for all three, and the Lib Dems come

forth or even fish. It will have consequences and not just in the

media but on the ground. One of the big stories is what will happen to

the Lib Dems, they face losing all of their MEPs. A good result for

them is lit -- in the local elections is losing 250 councillors.

These are the most interesting elections we have had for some

time. Are we heading for a Nick Clegg summer leadership crisis? I

think we are heading towards reversing the clock back to where we

were before the Eastleigh by-election. That quiet and things

down for Nick Clegg. If they lose all their MEPs, and there is a real

chance they will, Vince Cable will be out on manoeuvres because age is

not on his side. If he can say Nick Clegg is a loser and a failure, he

will be back. Will the Tories go into headless chicken mode if they

come third? Yes, if UKIP come first there will not be as much panic as

if Labour come first. Is Labour comes a poor second, will there be

some pressure on Ed Miliband to reopen his attitude to the

referendum? I don't think so and my colleague was talking to Labour

sources who said he is absolutely not going to. That is something you

can say definitely about him, he decides on a course and he sticks to

it. There is one potential upside for David Cameron in a really bad

Conservative results, it could strengthen his hand in the

renegotiations of Britain's EU membership because he doesn't even

need to say to Angela Merkel and Francois Hollande it is there. David

Cameron hasn't just been fighting for his party into the local

elections. He also got his knuckles wrapped by the Speaker, John Bercow,

at Prime Minister's Question Time, for talking for too long. Take a

look at this. There is a better future ahead of us but we must not

go backward to the policies that put us in this mess in the first place.

I don't know what they are paying him, Mr Speaker. Order, order. I

haven't finished! In response to that question, the Prime Minister

has finished and he can take it from me that he has finished. I can't

remember a speaker ever speaking to a Prime Minister like that. Clearly

in that case, John Bercow crossed a line. It is Prime Minister 's

questions, he is entitled to answer the questions. There is really bad

blood between those two, going back a long way. They hate each other and

the worrying thing about that was the look of triumphalism on the

speaker's face afterwards. He is a remarkable, revolutionary speaker

who has made the House of Commons more relevant, he is holding the

executive to account, but that look on his face showed he had crossed

the line. Does he survive after the next election? He has improved the

importance of the Commons, is that enough to keep him in the Speaker 's

chair? The most public bit of the Commons is still the Prime Minister

's questions, and we can conclude that John Bercow's interventions

take more time than any delays he complains about so I wouldn't be

surprised if, in a few years' time, someone else replaces him. He is

quite popular with Labour, is he not? Yes, he is married to a Labour

activist and is notably sympathetic to Labour but I think this is a

difficult situation. David Cameron also overstepped the line. As soon

as the speaker says order, the idea is that the House was to order and

David Cameron pushed him. They are both trying to score points off each

other. We cover Prime Minister 's questions every week on the daily

politics, and there is a danger that he sees it as an opportunity to do

some grandstanding. You slightly sends his vanity gets the better of

him. It is supposed to be Prime Minister 's questions. At the end of

that session, the Speaker read out a statement from the Chief clerk, and

immensely respected figure, saying he is taking early retirement. It is

pretty clear that the reason he has decided to go early is because he is

finding it tricky to maintain a cordial relationship with the

speaker, and the speaker might want to think about his man management

skills. That's all for today. The Daily Politics will be back on BBC

Two at lunchtime from Tuesday onwards. Remember, it is a bank

holiday tomorrow. I'll be back here at 11am next week. Remember - if

it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.