28/05/2017 Sunday Politics Yorkshire and Lincolnshire


28/05/2017

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LineFromTo

Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:36.:00:40.

New CCTV images are released showing suicide bomber, Salman Abedi,

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on the night he attacked Manchester Arena, killing 22 people.

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Are the politicians and the security services doing

:00:48.:00:49.

Theresa May says Britain needs to be "stronger and more resolute"

:00:50.:00:55.

in confronting extremist views, as she outlines plans

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for a new Commission to counter extremism.

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We'll be talking to the Security Minister.

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Jeremy Corbyn says a Labour government would recruit 1,000

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more staff at security and intelligence agencies.

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On the Sunday Politics in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire:

:01:14.:01:15.

With security stepped-up across our area, we ask what impact

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Brexit will have when to comes to the fight against terror.

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supporters. In London, we look at what the Conservatives are offering

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the capital, having voted Remain. To help guide me through this

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morning, I'm joined by Steve Richards, Julia

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Hartley-Brewer and Tim Marshall. They'll be sharing their thoughts

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on Twitter and you can join So, with a week and a half to go,

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the election campaign And some recent polls

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suggest the race is just We'll be taking a closer look

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at that in just a moment but, first, here are some of the key events over

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the next 10 days or so: Tonight at 6pm will see the third

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of the party leader interviews. This time it's the SNP's

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Nicola Sturgeon facing questions While many across the UK will be

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enjoying tomorrow's bank holiday, there will be no break

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in campaigning for And in the evening it will be

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the turn of Ukip's Paul Nuttall On Tuesday the SNP

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publish their manifesto - the last of the major parties to do

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so - after last week's Then on Wednesday, the BBC's

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Election Debate will see representatives from the seven main

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parties debate in front On Thursday, Lib Dem leader Tim

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Farron will have his interview... Before Friday's Question Time

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special with Theresa May They won't debate each other,

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but will take questions consecutively from members

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of the audience. The final week of campaigning

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is a short one, with politicians cramming in three days

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of door-knocking before voters go We'll have an exit poll once

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voting has ended at 10pm, with the result expected early

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in the morning of June 9th. Well, it's Sunday, and that always

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means a spate of new opinion And they make for fascinating,

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if a tad confusing, reading. There are five new opinion

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polls today, which have the Conservative lead

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over Labour anywhere from six points to 14 points.

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So, what's going on? Professor John Curtice

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is the expert we always turn to at times like this,

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and he joins me from Glasgow. Take us through these polls. They

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seem to be all over the place? They may seem to be but there is a very

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consistent key message. Four of these five polls, if you compare

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them with what they were saying before the Conservative manifesto

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launch on the 18th, four say the Conservatives are down by two

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points. Four of them say the Labour vote is up by two points. A clear

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consistent message. The Conservative lead has narrowed. Why does this

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matter? It matters because we are now in a position where the leads

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are such that the Conservatives can no longer be sure of getting the

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landslide majority they want. Some posters suggesting they may be in

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trouble and it is going to get rather close. Others suggested is

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further apart. There are two major sources of... The Poles agree that

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young voters will vote Labour if they vote. Older voters will vote

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for the Conservatives. How many of those younger voters will turn out

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to vote? The second thing is whether the evidence in the opinion polls

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that the Conservatives are advancing more in the North of England and the

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Midlands is realised that the ballot box? If it is not realised, the

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Tories chances of getting a landslide look remote. If it is,

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they could still well indeed get a majority more than 80%. The

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Conservatives have lost some ground depending on which opinion poll you

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look at. What about the Labour Party? It is gaining ground. It has

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been gaining ground ever since week one. They started on 26, they now

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average 35. There were a lot of people out there at the beginning of

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the campaign who were saying, I usually vote Labour but the truth is

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I'm not sure about Jeremy Corbyn. They seem to have decided the Labour

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manifesto wasn't so bad. They have looked at Theresa May and have said,

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we will stick with Labour. Labour have managed to draw back into the

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fold some of their traditional voters who were disenchanted,

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together with, crucially, some of those younger voters who have never

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voted before, who have always been a particular target for Jeremy Corbyn.

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What is your reaction to previous opinion polls and elections weather

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has been a feeling that some of the Labour support has been overstated?

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This be a worry this time? That is one of the uncertainties that faces

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the opinion polls and the rest of us. We had a conference on Friday at

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which it was carefully explained that pollsters have been trying to

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correct the errors that resulted in an overestimation of Labour support

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a couple of years ago, particularly among younger voters. You shouldn't

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assume the opinion polls will be wrong this time because they were

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wrong the last time. We want in truth know whether or not the polls

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have got it right. Even if they are wrong in terms of the level, they

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are not wrong in terms of the trend. The trends have been dramatic so

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far. A big rise in Tory support early on at the expense of Ukip. And

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subsequently, a remarkable rise in Labour support, albeit from a low

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initial baseline. This election has already seen quite a lot of

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movement. We shouldn't rule out the possibility there will be yet more

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in the ten days to come. That is his analysis. Let's talk to

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the panel. Julia, how concerned should Conservative headquarters be

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at this particular point at what looks like an apparent surge by

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Labour? Depends if you want a massive landslide majority or might

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not. I assume the Tory party do. Whether anybody thinks that is a

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good idea is a different matter. Undoubtedly the manifesto league was

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a total disaster. Social care policy and the U-turn. Lots of stuff in the

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Labour manifesto was very appealing. The tactic from Sir Lynton Crosby

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was clear. It is all about Theresa May. Don't even mention the

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candidate or the party. The Labour Party, the candidates are on the

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moderate side are saying, don't mention Jeremy Corbyn. This has been

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a battle between two big people. The more we have seen of Theresa May,

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she has gone down. The more we have seen of Jeremy Corbyn, he has gone

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up. If you make it about strong and stable leadership and then you do

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something like a massive unprecedented U-turn on a key policy

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like social care, the knock is even greater. Do you think that is the

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reason for the change in the opinion polls or is Labour gaining some

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momentum? I think it is part of the reason. You can understand why the

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focus was on her at the beginning because her personal ratings were

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stratospheric. What is interesting is all successful leaders basically

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cast a spell over voters in the media. None of them are titans. All

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of them are flawed. It is a question of when the spell is broken. This is

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a first for a leader's spell to be broken during an election campaign.

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That was a moment of high significance. The fact the Labour

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Party campaign is more robust than many thought it would be is the

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other factor. I think it is the combination of the two, that the

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trend, as Professor John Curtis said, the trend has been this

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narrow. There has not been much campaigning. Local campaigning

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resumed on Thursday, national campaigning on Friday. Do you think,

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Tim Marshall, that the opinion polls are reflecting what happened in

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Manchester and people's thoughts about which party will keep them

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safe? No, I think that will come next week. I think it is too soon

:09:37.:09:40.

for that. It was quite understandable from the V -- the

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very beginning for Lynton Crosby to frame the campaign in terms of

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Theresa May and Brexit. The electorate can have its own view.

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You always have to go back to Clinton's it's the economy stupid

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for most of the electorate. It is framed in your electricity bill. It

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is framed in your jobs. Both manifestos have got more holes in

:10:10.:10:14.

them than Swiss cheese. It comes down to which manifesto you believe.

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The Labour manifesto makes more promises about things you care about

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like your electricity bill. Interesting, but in the end despite

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while we thought would be a Brexit election, it has been a lot about

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public services. It always comes down to bread-and-butter issues. I

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don't think we have quite seen how the terrorist you has played out. We

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had the Westminster attack only a couple of months ago. That was

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already factored in in terms of who you trust and who you don't trust.

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The IRA stuff from Jeremy Corbyn is already factored in. People actually

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care about how ordinary government policies affect their lives. Thank

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you very much. The election campaign was,

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of course, put on hold following the terrorist

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attack in Manchester But now that campaigning has

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resumed, it's hardly surprising that security

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is now a primary concern. The Labour Party has announced it

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would recruit 1,000 more Jeremy Corbyn, speaking on ITV at

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short while ago, says previous cuts have undermined security.

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It seems that the cuts in police numbers have led to some very

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dangerous situation is emerging. It is also a question of a community

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response as well. So that where, an imam, for example, lets the police

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he is concerned about a muddy, I would hope they would act. And I

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would hope we have -- and I would hope they would have the resources

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to act as well. Joining me now from Leeds

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is the Shadow Justice Good morning. You have announced a

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thousand more Security and Intelligence agency staff. That is

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in line with what the government has already announced and the Shadow

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Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, has said you would not be spending any

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more money. It doesn't amount to much, does it? That is just one of

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the parts of our pledge card on the safer communities. There is also

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10,000 extra police, because the Conservatives cut the police by

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20,000. That 10,000 extra police would mean in -- and extra police

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officer in each neighbourhood. There are 3000 extra put -- prison

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officers. Prison staff has been cut by 6000. That is a third. It is not

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helping keep communities safer. We are pledging 3000 extra

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firefighters. Also, a thousand extra security staff and 500 extra border

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guards. There have been 13 areas identified where our borders are not

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as secure as they should be. That is the list of numbers you have given.

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If we concentrate on the security services, because it was Jeremy

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Corbyn he said there will be more police on the streets under Labour.

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If the security sources need more resources they should get them. Why

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aren't you giving them more? We are committing to a thousand more

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police. The Godinet is doing that as well. You are not committing

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anything more. The government has not delivered on that promise. We

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will deliver on that promise is -- promise. What Jeremy has made very

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clear is that you can't do security on the cheap. Austerity has to stop

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at the police station door, and at the hospital door. But we will be

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giving the resources required to keep our communities safer. So you

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will give them the resources and more powers? Well, the police need

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to be empowered. But when you listen to what the Police Federation are

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saying, they have been speaking out for a long time about the danger

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caused by police cuts. And I'm talking not only about terrorism,

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not only about acts of extreme violence, but anything from

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anti-social behaviour to burglary. Use it more powers. What sort of

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powers are you thinking of giving the security services? We need to

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listen to them. That is not a power. We need to listen to the

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intelligence community and the security service, to the army and

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the police, about what they think and how they think our communities

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could be made safe. One thing is clear. Cutting the number of police

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by 20,000 makes our community is less safe, not more safe. You said

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you will listen to the security services. Can voters be reassured

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and guaranteed that Jeremy Corbyn will listen to the security services

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and the police in terms of more powers if that is what they want?

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Until now he has spent his whole political career voting against

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measures designed to tackle home-grown and international

:15:09.:15:13.

terrorism. Jeremy Corbyn's speech on safer communities earlier this week

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made clear he is listening to the security services. So he would grant

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those new powers. He voted against the terrorism Act in 2000, into

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thousands and six. In 2011. And in 2014, the data retention and

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investigatory Powers act. Which new powers will he be happy to enact?

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Just to say, Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and

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many Conservative MPs, voted against legislation where they thought it

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would be ill-advised, ineffective or actually counter-productive. It is a

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very complex situation. What we don't want to do is introduce

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hastily prepared laws with one eye to the newspaper headlines, which

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can act as recruiting sergeants for terrorism. And actually, when I said

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earlier that Jeremy Corbyn made clear in his speech this week that

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he has been listening to the security services, what he said

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about the international situation has also been said by the former

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head of MI5, Stella Rimington, and her predecessor. As well as

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president of back -- President Barack Obama.

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You say he will give the police and security services the resources and

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powers they need. If we look back at some of the legislation Jeremy

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Corbyn and others voted against in 2000, it gave the Secretary of State

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the -- new powers... Does Jeremy Corbyn still think that is a bad

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idea? Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and

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others... I know you want to bracket it with Conservatives but I'm

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interested in what Jeremy Corbyn will do when he says we are going to

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be smarter about fighting terrorism. If he's not prepared to vote in

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favour of those sorts of measures, or trying to impose restrictions on

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suspects, I'm trying to find out what he will do. It is a complex

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situation. With this legislation the devil is often in the detail. If it

:17:21.:17:24.

was a simple and stopping terrorism by voting a piece of legislation

:17:25.:17:27.

through Parliament, it would have been stopped a long time ago. Sadly

:17:28.:17:35.

there are no easy answers, and that is recognised by Barack Obama,

:17:36.:17:39.

Stella Rimington, the head of the MI5, by David Davis and other

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Conservative MPs. What is clear, as Jeremy made clear in his speech this

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week, is the way things are being done currently is not working. We

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have got to be tough on terrorism and the unforgivable acts of murder,

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but also tough on the causes of terrorism as well. The sad truth is

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there are no easy answers. If there were, the problem would have been

:18:03.:18:14.

solved a long time ago. If you more security and terrorism officers but

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your leader is still uncomfortable with giving them the powers they

:18:17.:18:19.

need to do their jobs because it is complicated legislation, they will

:18:20.:18:22.

want to know how you are going to do it. At another stop the War rally in

:18:23.:18:31.

2014, Jeremy Corbyn said the murder of a charity worker was jingoism. At

:18:32.:18:40.

the beginning of that speech he mentioned the importance of the

:18:41.:18:45.

one-minute silence for the memory of Alan Henning who was murdered. What

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he has also made clear is responsibility for acts of terrorism

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and murder lies with the murder, and something that's really disappointed

:18:54.:19:01.

me is that the Prime Minister said the other day that in Jeremy

:19:02.:19:05.

Corbyn's speech on this on Monday, he said... Whether she agrees with

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him on his politics, she knows he didn't say that in his speech, but

:19:20.:19:23.

what troubles me is you have got a Prime Minister who must have sat

:19:24.:19:26.

down with her advisers earlier that day and said, well I do know he

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didn't say that but if we say he did we might win some votes. I think

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that is shameful and it shows Theresa May cannot be trusted. These

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issues should transcend party politics. We need to pull together

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on this issue. Thank you very much. Well, the Conservatives have

:19:41.:19:44.

promised a new statutory commission The party says it will identify

:19:45.:19:47.

extremism, including the "non-violent" kind,

:19:48.:19:50.

and help communities stand up to it. Also this morning,

:19:51.:19:52.

the Security Minister, Ben Wallace, has attacked internet giants

:19:53.:19:54.

for failing to tackle terror online, and accused them

:19:55.:19:56.

of being ruthless money-makers. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:19:57.:20:09.

Those comments you have made about social media companies failing in

:20:10.:20:13.

their responsibility to take down extremist material, what will you do

:20:14.:20:18.

to compel them? I think we will look at the range of options. The Germans

:20:19.:20:22.

have proposed a fine, we are not sure whether that will work, but

:20:23.:20:27.

there are range of pressures we can put onto some of these companies.

:20:28.:20:33.

Some have complied. In the article in the Sunday Telegraph today I did

:20:34.:20:37.

say it is not all of them. They are not immune to pressure. We can do

:20:38.:20:42.

internationally, and the Prime Minister urged at the G7 and

:20:43.:20:45.

international response. I think there are a range of issues. We

:20:46.:20:52.

could change the law. You mentioned the G7, and rhetoric and warm words

:20:53.:20:57.

are fine to an extent but it is action people want. If you have made

:20:58.:21:00.

these impassioned remarks in the newspapers about them failing to do

:21:01.:21:07.

the job, people want to know what powers do you have now to say to

:21:08.:21:10.

social media companies take down this material? We have an act that

:21:11.:21:15.

was recently passed. In this area we have just finished consulting on one

:21:16.:21:21.

of the areas we could use but we cannot pre-empt the consultation. We

:21:22.:21:27.

have right now officials from my department over in the United States

:21:28.:21:30.

with American officials working with CSPs because what we see is that

:21:31.:21:35.

they do respond to pressure. The best example is we think they have

:21:36.:21:42.

the technology and the capability to change the algorithms they use that

:21:43.:21:49.

maximise profit over safety. But you are relying on these companies

:21:50.:21:52.

devoting more resources to this line of work that you would like to see

:21:53.:21:55.

them do. Have you got any evidence they will do that? They said, only a

:21:56.:22:01.

few weeks ago before the election was called the Home Secretary hosted

:22:02.:22:05.

a Round Table with them. We have evidence they are trying to improve

:22:06.:22:11.

it. A few are refusing to or being difficult, and that's why the Prime

:22:12.:22:15.

Minister was right to step up not only the language she was using but

:22:16.:22:18.

to say we are not going to allow this to progress any more. People

:22:19.:22:23.

will be worried about who will make the judgment about what is

:22:24.:22:25.

unacceptable and what should be taken down. Let me show you this,

:22:26.:22:32.

which was shared widely across social media. If you read that quote

:22:33.:22:37.

you could argue it is at the same end if you like. The man in the

:22:38.:22:41.

picture is a terrorist hate preacher, the jihadist who was

:22:42.:22:47.

killed in Yemen by the Americans. Is this the sort of thing you would be

:22:48.:22:51.

demanding social media companies take down? You have to look at the

:22:52.:22:56.

context it was deployed in. I could show you some of the 270,000 pieces

:22:57.:23:02.

we have had removed since 2010 from internet sites that have been

:23:03.:23:06.

extreme. The big issue is not often the individual image, it is the way

:23:07.:23:10.

these companies set up the algorithms to link you. If you were

:23:11.:23:16.

watching that on Facebook delivered to you, perhaps you would like to

:23:17.:23:20.

look at this, because that's how they set it up. If you go onto

:23:21.:23:27.

YouTube, you can get let down the path from looking at Manchester... I

:23:28.:23:36.

understand your example, but from a practical level are you expecting

:23:37.:23:39.

media companies to take down that sort of posts if it appeared? Yes...

:23:40.:23:47.

You are? Who will make the decisions about what will radicalise young

:23:48.:23:51.

people that could lead someone down the path to let off a bomb? If I

:23:52.:23:57.

invite your viewers to look at the work the Guardian have done on

:23:58.:24:01.

Facebook guidance, to say for example it is OK to produce videos

:24:02.:24:07.

or broadcast videos of seven-year-olds being bullied as

:24:08.:24:11.

long as it wasn't accompanied by captions, I don't think you need to

:24:12.:24:15.

be an expert to say that is not acceptable. Something more worrying

:24:16.:24:19.

for you as a journalist and me as a politician, another set of guidance

:24:20.:24:25.

that says... I think this is quite menacing... That certain people

:24:26.:24:30.

don't deserve our protection. That includes journalists and politicians

:24:31.:24:34.

and people who are controversial. So I think there is more work to be

:24:35.:24:39.

done but at the end of the day it is the pathway this stuff leads to. It

:24:40.:24:43.

is more about examining how much progress you can make. The

:24:44.:24:48.

Government says there are up to 23,000 potential terrorist attackers

:24:49.:24:53.

in this country, 3000 of those posing a serious threat being

:24:54.:25:04.

monitored. That is pretty disturbing, these are big numbers.

:25:05.:25:09.

Yes, and the tragedy of Manchester shows this is not about failure, it

:25:10.:25:13.

is about the scale of the challenge we face and that is why it is

:25:14.:25:16.

important that alongside people is powers. Should you double the size

:25:17.:25:24.

of MI5 for example? We have increased year-on-year in real terms

:25:25.:25:27.

not only the money but the numbers of people in MI5. It is now 2000 we

:25:28.:25:33.

have committed to increased to... Before the attack. Before our

:25:34.:25:39.

manifesto we had recruited, we have increased the whole of government

:25:40.:25:43.

spending on counterterrorism from ?11.7 billion in 2015 up to 15.7

:25:44.:25:53.

billion. Would you expand the number of people in MI5? I have asked them

:25:54.:26:00.

on a regular basis if they have the resource if they are happy with it,

:26:01.:26:05.

and the answer comes back time and time again, yes we are. You have

:26:06.:26:09.

quite extensive powers at your disposal, the question is if you are

:26:10.:26:15.

using them. Measures were introduced in 2012 to replace control orders,

:26:16.:26:22.

but they have rarely been used. Only seven are currently in operation.

:26:23.:26:30.

Why? Because there are a whole... It is just one tool in the tool box.

:26:31.:26:35.

Other powers we use, we take away people's passports if we think they

:26:36.:26:43.

are about to travel. How many? I cannot comment, it is a sensitive

:26:44.:26:47.

issue. Plenty of people are finding their passport has been removed and

:26:48.:26:51.

at the same time we strip people of citizenship to make sure they don't

:26:52.:26:57.

come back. On top of that, because of the investment made in GCHQ, MI5

:26:58.:27:02.

and counterterrorism, we have more powers and more ability to monitor

:27:03.:27:08.

them. But are you using them enough? Only seven TPIMs are in operation.

:27:09.:27:16.

You won't give me any of the other measures at your disposal, but if

:27:17.:27:20.

they are only in single figures, that doesn't seem to compare with

:27:21.:27:26.

the numbers who are being monitored. Also, we have to strike a balance

:27:27.:27:31.

between... We have to satisfy the court so we have to make sure there

:27:32.:27:34.

is enough evidence to restrict people's freedoms. TPIMs do all

:27:35.:27:42.

sorts of good things to keep people safe. It sends people away from

:27:43.:27:48.

where they live, it tags them... I tell you why they are better. The

:27:49.:27:53.

control orders were on track to be struck down by the courts because

:27:54.:27:57.

one of the things we have to satisfy is the courts but we also have to

:27:58.:28:02.

satisfy, we have to make sure we get the balance between the community is

:28:03.:28:06.

right and the measures we take. If we alienate our communities, we

:28:07.:28:10.

won't get the intelligence that allows us to catch it. There is no

:28:11.:28:15.

point in having more police and intelligence services if you don't

:28:16.:28:21.

give them the powers to do the job. Jeremy Corbyn were licensed James

:28:22.:28:33.

Bond to do precisely nothing. And -- thank you.

:28:34.:28:35.

The revelation that the Manchester suicide bomber, 22-year-old

:28:36.:28:43.

Salman Abedi, was born in this country has raised fresh concerns

:28:44.:28:46.

about the effectiveness of the UK's counter-extremism policy.

:28:47.:28:48.

In a moment we'll be talking to two people who've spent their careers

:28:49.:28:51.

investigating radicalisation in the UK.

:28:52.:28:52.

Douglas Murray, of the Henry Jackson Society,

:28:53.:28:54.

and Sara Khan, author of The Battle for British Islam and CEO

:28:55.:28:57.

of the counter-extremism organisation Inspire.

:28:58.:28:58.

We asked both for a personal take on how to confront the problem

:28:59.:29:01.

of Islamist extremism. First up, here's Douglas Murray.

:29:02.:29:04.

Even after all these dead, all this mourning and defiance,

:29:05.:29:09.

We remain stuck in the John Lennon response to terrorism -

:29:10.:29:27.

Our politicians still refuse to accurately identify

:29:28.:29:31.

the sources of the problem, and polite society

:29:32.:29:32.

This country gave asylum to the Libyan parents of Salman Abedi.

:29:33.:29:39.

Their son repaid that generosity by killing 22 British people,

:29:40.:29:43.

one for each year of life this country had given him.

:29:44.:29:50.

We need to think far more deeply about all this.

:29:51.:29:54.

Eastern Europe doesn't have an Islamic terrorism problem

:29:55.:29:57.

France has the worst problem because it has the most Islam.

:29:58.:30:05.

Are we ever going to draw any lessons from this?

:30:06.:30:09.

For the time being, the game is to be as inoffensive as possible.

:30:10.:30:17.

The rot isn't just within the Muslim communities.

:30:18.:30:20.

Consider all those retired British officials and others who shill,

:30:21.:30:24.

and are in the pay of the Saudis and other foreign states,

:30:25.:30:28.

even while they pump the extreme versions of Islam into our country.

:30:29.:30:34.

It is high time we became serious too.

:30:35.:30:44.

Islamist extremism is flourishing in our country.

:30:45.:30:52.

We're failing to defeat it, so what can we do about it?

:30:53.:30:59.

Whenever I say we must counter those Muslim organisations

:31:00.:31:02.

who are promoting hatred, discrimination, and sometimes even

:31:03.:31:07.

violence, I'm often either ignored by some politicians out

:31:08.:31:11.

of a misplaced fear of cultural sensitivity, or I find myself

:31:12.:31:14.

experiencing abuse by some of my fellow Muslims.

:31:15.:31:17.

These groups and their sympathisers tour Muslim communities,

:31:18.:31:26.

hold events, and have hundreds of thousands of followers

:31:27.:31:29.

Yet there is little counter challenge to their toxic

:31:30.:31:33.

anti-Western narrative, which includes opposition

:31:34.:31:39.

I've seen politicians and charities partner

:31:40.:31:44.

with and support some of these voices and groups.

:31:45.:31:49.

Many anti-racist groups will challenge those on the far

:31:50.:31:55.

right but not Muslim hate preachers, in the erroneous belief that to do

:31:56.:31:58.

But it's Islamophobic not to challenge them because it implies

:31:59.:32:05.

Following the attack on Monday, it cannot be business as usual.

:32:06.:32:15.

We must counter those who seek to divide us.

:32:16.:32:24.

Sarah Karen Allen Douglas Murray join me know. You wrote a book,

:32:25.:32:31.

strange death of Europe. What did you mean in your film when you said,

:32:32.:32:36.

let's get serious? Several things. Let me give you one example. The

:32:37.:32:40.

young man who carried out this atrocious attack was a student at

:32:41.:32:45.

Salford University for two years. He was on a campus which is, from its

:32:46.:32:51.

leadership to its student leadership, opposes all aspects of

:32:52.:32:54.

the government's only counter extremism programme. They boast they

:32:55.:32:59.

are boycotting it. They always did this. The university he was at was

:33:00.:33:05.

against the only counter extremism policy this state has. This is just

:33:06.:33:10.

one example of a much bigger problem. What are you suggesting?

:33:11.:33:16.

Shut down the University? Force them to change their policies? I think in

:33:17.:33:26.

the case of Salford, which discourages students from reporting

:33:27.:33:33.

Islamic extremism... When you discover you have produced a suicide

:33:34.:33:37.

bomber in Manchester, you should be held responsible. What do you say to

:33:38.:33:41.

that? I think it is quite clear from I am experienced there have been

:33:42.:33:47.

politicians who have undermined Prevent, community organisations,

:33:48.:33:50.

Islamist groups who have been at the forefront of undermining and

:33:51.:33:56.

countering Prevent, but also wider counter extremism measures. Islamist

:33:57.:34:02.

-- Islamist extremes and has flourished in this country. If

:34:03.:34:06.

Summer Rae had given us a crystal ball ten years ago and said, look

:34:07.:34:11.

forward and you will see hundreds of people leave this country to join

:34:12.:34:15.

Isis, we will have hundreds of people convicted of Islamist

:34:16.:34:17.

offences, I think we would have been quite shocked that things have got

:34:18.:34:22.

worse as opposed to getting better. Douglas Murray, the essence of your

:34:23.:34:25.

argument when you made the comparison between the numbers of

:34:26.:34:28.

Muslims in other countries is that we have too much Islam in Britain?

:34:29.:34:33.

The aunt Tilly Muslim Brotherhood give is that the answer to

:34:34.:34:38.

absolutely everything is Islam. Less Islam is a good thing. Let me

:34:39.:34:43.

finish. The Islamic world is in the middle of a very serious problem. It

:34:44.:34:46.

has been going on since the beginning. I think it is not worth

:34:47.:34:51.

continuing to risk our own security simply in order to be politically

:34:52.:34:56.

correct. I would disagree with Douglas on that. Nobody is going to

:34:57.:35:00.

deny that since the end of the 20th century there has been a rise in

:35:01.:35:04.

Islamist extreme terror organisations. Yes, there is a

:35:05.:35:08.

crisis within contemporary Islam, but there is a class. There are

:35:09.:35:13.

competing claims about what the faith stands for. While we are

:35:14.:35:15.

seeing Islamist terror organisations, leading theologians

:35:16.:35:21.

are saying that the concept of a caliphate is outdated. Muslims

:35:22.:35:26.

should be adopting a human rights culture. I entirely agree with that.

:35:27.:35:32.

There are obviously people trying to counter that. I would urge us to

:35:33.:35:37.

take the long view. In the history of Islam there have been many

:35:38.:35:41.

reformers. Most of the time they have ended a up being the ones on

:35:42.:35:45.

the brunt of the violence. I deeply resent what you and others do in

:35:46.:35:50.

this country. I want you to win. But they are a Billy good minority. A

:35:51.:35:56.

poll last year found that two thirds of British Muslims found they would

:35:57.:35:58.

not report a family member they found to be involved in extremism to

:35:59.:36:06.

the police. You are proposing more Draconian measures. I wish they

:36:07.:36:13.

could win. We should do everything we can to support people like that.

:36:14.:36:17.

What we should recognise the scale of the problem is beyond our current

:36:18.:36:23.

understanding. You counter radicalisation on a university

:36:24.:36:27.

campus or online? Discussion we had with Ben Wallace about the material

:36:28.:36:33.

that is out there. If we pursue in a hard-line way perhaps the sort of

:36:34.:36:36.

thing Douglas Murray is suggesting, gone is freedom of speech, gone is

:36:37.:36:44.

freedom of debate and discussion? The best way to counter extremism is

:36:45.:36:48.

through the prism of human rights. We cannot abandon our human rights

:36:49.:36:54.

to fight extremism. Where I think we are going wrong, where there is a

:36:55.:37:00.

gap, is the lack of counter work to challenge Islamist ideals. How many

:37:01.:37:05.

people are going to say we need to counter that strict narrative? That

:37:06.:37:10.

is where we are not doing enough work. What about the human rights

:37:11.:37:17.

point, that you cannot take away people's human rights? I'm not

:37:18.:37:20.

suggesting that. I'm suggesting we do things that ensure that 22 people

:37:21.:37:27.

don't get blown up on an average Monday again, OK? Dissent to be

:37:28.:37:33.

opposed to people want to blow up our daughters is not opposing human

:37:34.:37:39.

rights. If you're taking government money and you are an institution

:37:40.:37:42.

like Salford University you should be held responsible for not

:37:43.:37:45.

cooperating with standard security measures. You can challenge

:37:46.:37:50.

extremism without abandoning human rights. We have got to actually

:37:51.:37:57.

counter the Islamist narrative. We're not doing enough. This is not

:37:58.:38:01.

about closing down free speech. This is encouraging it. This is the most

:38:02.:38:05.

effective way of countering the Islamist narrative. Why isn't it

:38:06.:38:13.

doing better? A number of reasons. One is there is a denial taking

:38:14.:38:17.

place. A lot of apologetics. Part of it is the way we talk about Muslims

:38:18.:38:22.

in this country. We use the term Muslim community as if they are

:38:23.:38:27.

homogenous. There is a positive trend but there is a negative trend

:38:28.:38:30.

among British Muslims. We need to counter those promoting the idea

:38:31.:38:34.

that Muslims are part of a collective identity. I agree. It is

:38:35.:38:40.

also the case there is massive push back because a lot of Muslims are

:38:41.:38:43.

defending the faith in this country. We think we can push them down a

:38:44.:38:47.

better path but they are defending absolutely everything. We need to

:38:48.:38:50.

get real about that. Thank you very much.

:38:51.:38:52.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:38:53.:38:54.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:38:55.:38:57.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

:38:58.:39:02.

Hello, a very good morning, you're watching the Sunday Politics

:39:03.:39:05.

Today we're just how safe are we in our part

:39:06.:39:08.

of the world when it comes to the threat from terrorism?

:39:09.:39:11.

And we hear from a group of young voters.

:39:12.:39:13.

What are their thoughts on the campaign in a week

:39:14.:39:15.

We have grown up with terrorism and I think it's an important issue

:39:16.:39:21.

that younger people do want to do something about.

:39:22.:39:30.

Six people from our side of the Pennines are known to have died

:39:31.:39:33.

Many more are being treated for injuries sustained in the attack.

:39:34.:39:37.

On the doorsteps of Yorkshire and Lincolnshire this weekend,

:39:38.:39:40.

politicians are being asked what more can be done to tackle

:39:41.:39:43.

the evil scourge of terrorism and what extra measures are in place

:39:44.:39:46.

to try to keep us safe. Richard Edwards reports.

:39:47.:39:51.

Wendy Fowell from Otley, Sorrell Leczkowski from Leeds,

:39:52.:39:55.

Angelika and Marcin Klis from York, Kelly Brewster from Sheffield,

:39:56.:39:58.

Courtney Boyle, a student at Leeds Beckett University -

:39:59.:40:05.

all people from our region who went to a concert and didn't come home,

:40:06.:40:09.

victims of an Islamic extremist born and raised in Manchester.

:40:10.:40:17.

And in response, moments of silence across Yorkshire.

:40:18.:40:21.

And also in response, this is now a familiar sight

:40:22.:40:29.

on the streets of Yorkshire's cities - armed officers out on patrol.

:40:30.:40:34.

It's a county that has its own unhappy history

:40:35.:40:38.

The 7/7 suicide bombers were raised in Leeds and in Huddersfield,

:40:39.:40:44.

and it was less than two miles from here that the then Batley

:40:45.:40:48.

and Spen MP Jo Cox was murdered by far right terrorist

:40:49.:40:51.

Thomas Mair as she arrived for a constituency surgery.

:40:52.:40:58.

As well as terrorists being born and brought up in Yorkshire,

:40:59.:41:00.

our region has often seen extremists on its streets and, in the past,

:41:01.:41:04.

The far right making home of West Yorkshire in particular.

:41:05.:41:10.

Every time there's been an atrocity, people have tried

:41:11.:41:12.

to use it to divide us and so far they've failed.

:41:13.:41:15.

People in this country refuse to bow down to terrorism and extremism

:41:16.:41:20.

and people have come together, people are standing up together.

:41:21.:41:23.

We saw it in London and we see it again.

:41:24.:41:28.

Here we are in Bradford today and people of all different

:41:29.:41:31.

We're not going to be divided by terrorists in this country.

:41:32.:41:35.

The important thing is that we are standing together.

:41:36.:41:37.

The politicians should come together and then sit to try to find

:41:38.:41:43.

a strategy or solution to this problem.

:41:44.:41:46.

I just think it's so tragically sad for everybody, particularly

:41:47.:41:52.

the 99.9% of Muslims who have got absolutely nothing to do with it.

:41:53.:41:58.

When we educate people about how these terrorists are going about,

:41:59.:42:04.

It's a political issue, that's my point of view.

:42:05.:42:09.

UKIP were on their general election campaign trail in Grimsby this week.

:42:10.:42:13.

Leader Paul Nuttall says the Muslim community needs to do more

:42:14.:42:16.

It seems as if this young man was hopping in and out of Libya

:42:17.:42:22.

and he may well have been to Syria and trained by Islamic State.

:42:23.:42:25.

But beyond that, the Muslim community itself has got to step up

:42:26.:42:29.

to the plate and report people to the police.

:42:30.:42:31.

It seems as if some within the mosque, where this man went,

:42:32.:42:36.

knew two years ago he had sympathies with Islamic State.

:42:37.:42:39.

He should have been reported to the police earlier.

:42:40.:42:41.

The challenge facing whichever party forms the next government is this -

:42:42.:42:44.

working out how to tackle extremism in all its forms.

:42:45.:42:56.

That was Richard Edwards reporting and we are giant alive today by

:42:57.:43:09.

Labour's and, conservative and the campaign group just Yorkshire. We

:43:10.:43:12.

have seen were armed police officers on the street, soldiers guarding

:43:13.:43:16.

public buildings, some up the mood for us as you see it. Are people

:43:17.:43:28.

angry, defiant? I think we must stand together, we must not start

:43:29.:43:32.

blaming all Muslims for what happened any more than we should

:43:33.:43:35.

blame that dreadful man who killed Jo Cox. We can't blame the whole of

:43:36.:43:42.

the white community for what he did, so we mustn't start blaming Muslims.

:43:43.:43:47.

Despite what Paul Nuttall is seen, I don't know when that was filmed, but

:43:48.:43:52.

I understand that people at the mosque where that man and terrorist

:43:53.:43:59.

worshipped did actually inform the police about their anxieties about

:44:00.:44:04.

him. We can't blame them either. Just look forward and try to look

:44:05.:44:07.

forward with friendship towards people. I think my position is

:44:08.:44:16.

appreciated more about Muslims than people who have no religion at all.

:44:17.:44:20.

I'm not sure about why that should be, but it is the case. We have had

:44:21.:44:26.

tough talk from Theresa May this week but you are a former Home

:44:27.:44:29.

Office minister. If she could go back to her time as Home Secretary,

:44:30.:44:33.

would she have cut police numbers to the extent that she did? I don't

:44:34.:44:40.

think the absolute number in terms of police, it is one element, but I

:44:41.:44:45.

don't think it's the only element we are talking about here in relation

:44:46.:44:51.

to people's security. 18,000 fewer police officers, you are seeing that

:44:52.:44:55.

doesn't make a difference? I think these things can all have some kind

:44:56.:45:00.

of contribution. I really do feel very strongly that it it is the

:45:01.:45:05.

direction of policy as much as it is just numbers. Concentrating just

:45:06.:45:09.

numbers is my view the wrong thing to do. People deserve to have

:45:10.:45:15.

security, whether it is security from the point of view of aggression

:45:16.:45:19.

or violence in the internally in this country of whether it is a tax

:45:20.:45:23.

on their way of life by these appalling terrorist acts. From

:45:24.:45:27.

wherever they come, whatever sector of society or whatever part of the

:45:28.:45:32.

world, they are entitled as a matter of some priority to security and

:45:33.:45:36.

governments have to make decisions so that there are security is

:45:37.:45:41.

guaranteed. That is my priority. We will talk about security issues in

:45:42.:45:45.

detail any moment, but let me ask you, what do you make of those

:45:46.:45:49.

comments from Paul Nuttall when he said, these are his words, the

:45:50.:45:52.

Muslim community needs to step up to the plate to the threat from Terra?

:45:53.:46:00.

Let me make it clear, the Muslim committee did everything they could

:46:01.:46:04.

in relation to this case. The need the appropriate referrals, they even

:46:05.:46:08.

actually banned this person from the mosque. Frankly, there is not a

:46:09.:46:12.

great deal more the Muslim committee could do. I just want to quote what

:46:13.:46:16.

Andy Burnham said, this man who committed this atrocity is no more a

:46:17.:46:22.

Muslim than the person who murdered Jo Cox. It is completely unfair to

:46:23.:46:28.

consistently labelled the Muslim community in terms of them in

:46:29.:46:31.

needing to do more, this is a much broader issue, this is not an

:46:32.:46:35.

Islamic issue, this is about a number of factors, a very complex

:46:36.:46:40.

issue and what we need right now is quite calm heads. It is not 1

:46:41.:46:43.

million miles from what David Cameron said when he was PM, he said

:46:44.:46:48.

it was time for the silent majority of Muslims to stand up and fight

:46:49.:46:52.

extremism. Those were assigned to different to what Paul Nuttall said,

:46:53.:47:00.

ID? No, not. I am a Muslim, I have grown up here, I am 46 years old and

:47:01.:47:05.

I also understand about some of the conversations that take place within

:47:06.:47:09.

the Muslim community. I think there has got to be a space where we can

:47:10.:47:14.

actually have quite open and transparent dialogue. I don't

:47:15.:47:20.

actually see the silent majority. When we saw 132 children killed,

:47:21.:47:26.

when we saw this tragedy that took place in Manchester, the Muslim

:47:27.:47:28.

community and the broader committee came together. I don't know a single

:47:29.:47:32.

person who did not come and stand together in the face of this

:47:33.:47:38.

adversity. You represented Keighley in parliament, an area with a large

:47:39.:47:41.

Muslim population, I know you have never shied away from tackling

:47:42.:47:45.

difficult issues. What more needs to be done to try to prevent young

:47:46.:47:50.

people from being radicalised from being dragged into this evil vacuum

:47:51.:47:56.

of Terra? It is very, very difficult. Because I haven't been

:47:57.:48:07.

the MP3 Keighley for seven years, I am not sure what's going on in the

:48:08.:48:11.

mosques there. But certainly I am hoping that the community leaders

:48:12.:48:17.

and imams, the people who the centres, teachers, I hope and trust

:48:18.:48:24.

that they are taking the line that the behaviour of that man who

:48:25.:48:30.

committed that dreadful crime on Monday are not Muslims. There is no

:48:31.:48:36.

connection between what he did and Islam. What he did is totally

:48:37.:48:42.

unknown Islamic. I hope that is the line that has been taken in

:48:43.:48:48.

Keighley. I only go to Keighley occasionally. You were involved with

:48:49.:48:58.

bringing in quite a bit of European anti-terror legislation. While at

:48:59.:49:02.

Corporation between European countries continue after Brexit? It

:49:03.:49:06.

has to, it is the simple fact. I spent the last ten years of my

:49:07.:49:10.

political career working on and in some cases instigating legislation

:49:11.:49:15.

which has been to bring co-operative levels between our intelligence

:49:16.:49:18.

agencies and our police forces right across Europe much closer together.

:49:19.:49:24.

We currently have a European police force, Europe, which is run by a

:49:25.:49:30.

British officer, we have got an awful lot of importing exchanges

:49:31.:49:33.

going on right now, including something was recent legislation in

:49:34.:49:39.

which information about the movements of terrorists or potential

:49:40.:49:43.

terrorists is no one in real time between our police forces and

:49:44.:49:47.

intelligence agencies. This has actually resulted already, it is not

:49:48.:49:50.

completely in place, been put in place, but it has resulted already

:49:51.:49:54.

in the deterrence of an prevention of a considerable number of

:49:55.:49:57.

terrorist attacks. Are you talking about tracking flight movements? One

:49:58.:50:04.

of the things I was putting the report together, it went through

:50:05.:50:07.

legislation, it was supported fully by the British Government yet and

:50:08.:50:11.

all other governments as well. It has been significantly important to

:50:12.:50:14.

detect the movements of people who can cause us harm. The man in

:50:15.:50:19.

Manchester may well have been under description of being a homebred

:50:20.:50:22.

terrorist, but the truth is that he was away from this country, being

:50:23.:50:28.

radicalised and on his trip back, he actually went through European

:50:29.:50:32.

countries and the information we will be able to obtain in future for

:50:33.:50:37.

those sort of movements would in fact in my view be very important to

:50:38.:50:42.

us. Those things cannot be lost. Have you had a guarantee from

:50:43.:50:46.

Theresa May, the Home Secretary Amber Rudd that this programme will

:50:47.:50:50.

happen after Brexit so that European countries will be able to share

:50:51.:50:55.

information? For the 67 years I was involved in putting together some of

:50:56.:50:59.

these things, the Home Secretary was 110% supportive of me. That was to

:51:00.:51:05.

reason me. We cannot allow the circumstances of Brexit are getting

:51:06.:51:08.

the way of security, whatever else it might have to be comprised on, we

:51:09.:51:15.

cannot compromise the its agreements, those new relationships,

:51:16.:51:18.

because frankly they have taken off a lot of effort by myself and many

:51:19.:51:21.

others as well to put together and I am not prepared and I'm sure many

:51:22.:51:24.

others are not prepared to allow that to put our security in

:51:25.:51:26.

jeopardy. This week we arranged to film

:51:27.:51:28.

with a group of politics students from Sheffield Hallam University,

:51:29.:51:31.

many of them first time voters, about the election issues

:51:32.:51:33.

that matter to them. But, of course, the events

:51:34.:51:35.

of the week meant our discussion was dominated

:51:36.:51:38.

by one subject above all other. BBC Radio Sheffield political

:51:39.:51:40.

reporter Charlotte Rose asked them how the atrocity would shape

:51:41.:51:42.

the election landscape. Are the events in Manchester

:51:43.:51:47.

going to have an impact I think the problem

:51:48.:51:49.

with it is we need to understand what the media are going to say

:51:50.:51:55.

in the next couple of weeks. It's really scary to know

:51:56.:51:58.

the influence that the media can have on people's thoughts,

:51:59.:52:01.

especially the fact that most of the major, or all the major

:52:02.:52:05.

newspapers and what have I think that there's going to be

:52:06.:52:08.

a real exploitation of this on the people's emotions,

:52:09.:52:13.

especially in recent weeks with the problems with

:52:14.:52:17.

the supposed sympathy That's going to be another thing

:52:18.:52:20.

that's really exploited over Unfortunately, I do believe

:52:21.:52:26.

that it will have an affect on young people's votes,

:52:27.:52:30.

not myself as I've already decided who I'm going to vote for,

:52:31.:52:33.

and I vote for policies that are going to work

:52:34.:52:36.

best for the country. But I feel speaking to fellow peers

:52:37.:52:39.

and other students my age, we have grown up with terrorism

:52:40.:52:42.

and I think it is an important issue that younger people do

:52:43.:52:46.

want to do something about, because obviously something

:52:47.:52:51.

is not doing anything at the moment and I do think it

:52:52.:52:52.

will affect young people. Coming over here, do

:52:53.:52:55.

you think it might change I don't think young students

:52:56.:52:58.

would change significantly the way they vote because I think there's

:52:59.:53:03.

many significant issues regarding young people,

:53:04.:53:07.

regarding the housing benefits amongst 18-21 year olds,

:53:08.:53:11.

and also tuition fees. I think the older generations

:53:12.:53:14.

are going to see this as more of a threat than the younger

:53:15.:53:17.

generations in terms I think it's going to go

:53:18.:53:19.

more towards the right But I don't think it's really

:53:20.:53:24.

going to affect the younger voters. There's more pressing issues that

:53:25.:53:28.

really affect students. Because as you said earlier,

:53:29.:53:30.

we are seeing this all the time now. It's sad and it's very

:53:31.:53:33.

shocking, but it's not For both of you, do you think

:53:34.:53:37.

that this event that has happened in Manchester would change the way

:53:38.:53:41.

that you think about voting? My mindset, personally,

:53:42.:53:45.

is already set in terms As we saw with the referendum last

:53:46.:53:47.

year, the problem where sadly Jo Cox was murdered in cold blood, that

:53:48.:53:55.

didn't change the referendum result. Because nobody played on that,

:53:56.:53:59.

because it was a horrible and tragic I don't believe it is the position

:54:00.:54:02.

of politicians to play on the hearts and minds of the electorate,

:54:03.:54:08.

with tragic events. Instead, we should be focusing

:54:09.:54:11.

on policies that work Do you think it will have an impact

:54:12.:54:14.

in terms of community relations, about the way we talk

:54:15.:54:19.

about divisions in our society? It could quite possibly further

:54:20.:54:25.

division depending on how the media choose to portray incidents

:54:26.:54:29.

of the tragic event which occured. We don't want this to be a spring

:54:30.:54:35.

board for the far right, Like, Marine Le Pen

:54:36.:54:39.

got 11 million votes. People celebrated

:54:40.:54:42.

that Macron had won. 11 million votes for someone who's

:54:43.:54:44.

of those views, of that far right. We could either see

:54:45.:54:47.

a resurgence of some sort I feel like the Conservative

:54:48.:54:52.

manifesto is pretty authoritarian already, but we could see them

:54:53.:54:57.

lurching to the right. And pretty much what they want

:54:58.:55:00.

is a blank cheque. And tonight from 7.30,

:55:01.:55:06.

we're hosting a special Facebook debate on the issues for younger

:55:07.:55:13.

voters in this election. We'll hear from different

:55:14.:55:15.

groups of young people about their experiences

:55:16.:55:17.

and what matters most That's at 7.30 tonight on the BBC

:55:18.:55:19.

Look North Yorkshire Facebook page. Definitely worth watching.

:55:20.:55:36.

Interesting you from those young voters, they seem to be concerned of

:55:37.:55:40.

the events of this week and the threat from Terra didn't lead to a

:55:41.:55:45.

lurch to the far right politics. Do you identify with that? I thought

:55:46.:55:52.

that last young man to speak was brilliant in talking about Marine Le

:55:53.:55:55.

Pen and because she got and connecting that possibly to

:55:56.:55:59.

terrorism in France. I hope and pray that this will not happen in this

:56:00.:56:04.

from Hallam University are a great from Hallam University are a great

:56:05.:56:07.

credit to that university. They put credit to that university. They put

:56:08.:56:10.

forward some excellent points and I agree with everything that was said.

:56:11.:56:17.

I don't know whether you remember on Friday, Jeremy Corbyn made a speech

:56:18.:56:20.

which appeared to link British foreign policy to terrorism. Was he

:56:21.:56:24.

right to make that speech? I think we need to have a conversation, for

:56:25.:56:29.

example, Libya today is the lawless land. I don't think we can associate

:56:30.:56:35.

that to what happened. Going back to what the student said, let's not

:56:36.:56:40.

forget in our darkest hour, the days that followed, the communities came

:56:41.:56:44.

together. It was humbling for us to see. People were unified, not been

:56:45.:56:54.

divided on race or ethnic lines. I should also point out hate crime has

:56:55.:56:58.

started to go through the roof in the Greater Manchester area. There

:56:59.:56:59.

are implications there and I think what really needs to happen,

:57:00.:57:02.

particularly as the rest of this general election campaign goes on,

:57:03.:57:05.

we don't actually have politicians who start using quite divisive,

:57:06.:57:12.

rhetoric. It is the type of language use are in the Brexit period which

:57:13.:57:16.

gives legitimacy to those division issues, but thankfully we have a

:57:17.:57:21.

democracy which is rooted in diversity. Manchester is an absolute

:57:22.:57:25.

good example for the rest of the country, these kind of issues and

:57:26.:57:31.

atrocities will not divide us. We have seen a lurch to the far right

:57:32.:57:38.

across Europe, it could be said duty fears about terrorism. If the

:57:39.:57:42.

Government doesn't tackle the spread properly, do you fear is similar

:57:43.:57:47.

thing to happen in this country? Extremism of right or left, wherever

:57:48.:57:52.

it is based, arguments about religion or whatever else is

:57:53.:57:54.

unacceptable and in democracies where we have as much freedom for

:57:55.:57:57.

people, particularly for those young people as they grew up, we need to

:57:58.:58:02.

maintain that freedom and it's always a difficult balance to

:58:03.:58:06.

maintain, but you cannot do that, you cannot do that unless you

:58:07.:58:09.

actually take action against those that advocate violence from whatever

:58:10.:58:14.

political position they take. Incidentally, just on Libya, I would

:58:15.:58:18.

just say this, Libya under the dictator Gaddafi was a major

:58:19.:58:24.

exporter of terrorism, organising terrorism, long before he was

:58:25.:58:28.

removed. That was partly what the regime was involved in, everyone

:58:29.:58:33.

knows that. That was a different type of terrorism. Whatever it is,

:58:34.:58:37.

extremism is dangerous but we need to maintain freedom of speech. We

:58:38.:58:41.

just have to be careful that it does not end up with young people being

:58:42.:58:47.

radicalised, young people then turning into violence, because the

:58:48.:58:51.

very thing they want to argue for, freedom and democracy, is then under

:58:52.:58:54.

threat. That is something which politicians have got to grapple

:58:55.:58:59.

with. Can I ask you about Jeremy Corbyn's speech on Friday where he

:59:00.:59:03.

linked British foreign policy to the causes of terrorism? Was he right? I

:59:04.:59:08.

think that's completely wrong. Everyone has got it wrong, because

:59:09.:59:13.

the Prime Minister portrayed it as that, what you are saying. He didn't

:59:14.:59:18.

say that, he didn't try to see that he was excusing the terrorist act

:59:19.:59:24.

last Monday. He wasn't excusing it in any way whatsoever. I know Jeremy

:59:25.:59:28.

well enough to know that it wouldn't be his view, he would never see

:59:29.:59:32.

that. What he was saying was that there is certain parts of the world

:59:33.:59:36.

that are completely lawless and one of them is Libya. And what happened

:59:37.:59:42.

last Monday really did come from Libya, where there is a lack of law,

:59:43.:59:48.

a lack of Government. It is a very difficult country, a very different

:59:49.:59:52.

country, perhaps it was better when Gaddafi was there, I am not sure. It

:59:53.:59:59.

is a major exporter of terrorism for many years under Gaddafi, we have to

:00:00.:00:03.

be part of the world scene, we have to intervene and take our

:00:04.:00:06.

responsible party maintain democracy and freedom. If the country just

:00:07.:00:11.

simply blames whatever is going on right now with historic events and

:00:12.:00:16.

the way that I suspect some political leaders have been doing

:00:17.:00:20.

recently, I think the big mistake. Very briefly, how is this going to

:00:21.:00:24.

affect the election campaign know, do you believe? I don't think it

:00:25.:00:27.

will affect the outcome of the election campaign. We have got

:00:28.:00:32.

principally two main parties here, the Conservatives and Labour, and I

:00:33.:00:36.

expect them to be very responsible and listen to the rest of this

:00:37.:00:40.

campaign so it doesn't take an ugly turn. We have to leave it there,

:00:41.:00:42.

thank you for your thoughts today. Before we go back to London,

:00:43.:00:45.

we'll remember a week when people across Yorkshire and Lincolnshire

:00:46.:00:48.

fell silent to remember Now, after the Manchester attack,

:00:49.:02:17.

will the final week of election campaigning different in tone from

:02:18.:02:20.

what came before? My panel are here. Tim Marshall, it will be very front

:02:21.:02:28.

of Centre for the next few days. Is that a good thing for the election

:02:29.:02:33.

if it is going to be framed to who do you feel more safe with? It is

:02:34.:02:37.

inevitable but I think it will only be part of the election. As I said

:02:38.:02:43.

before the opt out, for many voters this is also about economics,

:02:44.:02:48.

unemployment. It is not all about Brexit, nor is it only about

:02:49.:02:53.

security. What it will do, I hope, is get the tone of the debate right.

:02:54.:02:58.

Although I have already seen the tone being lowered. I wasn't

:02:59.:03:02.

impressed with Mr Corbyn's speech last week blaming it on a foreign

:03:03.:03:08.

policy, which is a wafer thin analysis of what is going on.

:03:09.:03:14.

Inappropriate timing too soon? No, I think the argument is utter

:03:15.:03:22.

nonsense. I don't want to attack just one side. The Conservative

:03:23.:03:26.

party, I've forgotten which minister has already said that we would be

:03:27.:03:30.

safer under a Tory Prime Minister, it has got nothing to do with Labour

:03:31.:03:35.

or Tory government, the next Islamic attack. It is to do with jihadist

:03:36.:03:45.

ideology, not party policies. You raise an important issue about tone.

:03:46.:03:49.

It also points to a broader argument, one we were having

:03:50.:03:52.

earlier, has politics been two courses with this issue of

:03:53.:03:59.

extremism? Has the conversation about it tiptoed around some of the

:04:00.:04:05.

sensitive issues? And by the media. You highlight the problem of this

:04:06.:04:09.

being part of the election campaign by saying, has politics been too

:04:10.:04:17.

cautious? Who do you mean by politics? And in an election

:04:18.:04:21.

campaign there is a duty to be a divide, and adamant about values,

:04:22.:04:28.

policies etc. Security is an issue that transcends those political

:04:29.:04:32.

divides. So I think it is deeply unhealthy. It is nobody's fault a

:04:33.:04:39.

tragedy occurred. But if you ask me does it help or enhance an election

:04:40.:04:46.

debate? Emphatically not. A tragic event brings politics, as you call

:04:47.:04:53.

it, together. Security is an issue that is complex and doesn't divide

:04:54.:04:57.

neatly. Elections are political battles, by definition. So I think

:04:58.:05:04.

the coming together of this, a tragedy occurred anyway, but it is

:05:05.:05:11.

an unfortunate context. Do you agree or do you think this is a time to

:05:12.:05:16.

talk about these issues? Is it a time to review the level of

:05:17.:05:21.

argument? This is a political debate. I personally think the

:05:22.:05:24.

politicians should have been out and about on Wednesday. There is no

:05:25.:05:29.

wrong time to get it right. We mustn't let the terrorists affect

:05:30.:05:35.

our way of life. But they have when we disrupt the election campaign. It

:05:36.:05:42.

may be party political. But for a lot of voters, including me, I want

:05:43.:05:47.

to hear from party leaders. What do you plan to do about this? Right

:05:48.:05:53.

now, I've not heard anything that suggests any of these parties have

:05:54.:05:56.

got to grips with the real problem, which is that we are not actually

:05:57.:06:01.

tackling the problem in our midst. Douglas Murray touched on it

:06:02.:06:03.

earlier. We have not even come to grips with the scale of the problem.

:06:04.:06:11.

Does Labour have a grip -- Power Point in terms of terrorist

:06:12.:06:18.

legislation? It is complicated. And not all of it has worked or is used

:06:19.:06:23.

enough by government? It is another example where this doesn't work in

:06:24.:06:26.

an election debate because David Davis has opposed a lot of this

:06:27.:06:32.

terrorism legislation. He is now heading Brexit. There is a civil

:06:33.:06:35.

liberties argument which I personally have doubts about. Again,

:06:36.:06:42.

it brings people together from the major parties. And Corbyn didn't

:06:43.:06:49.

actually say it was the cause of terrorism, British foreign policy,

:06:50.:06:52.

but it helped to facilitate terrorism, which is a different

:06:53.:06:56.

argument. Again, that would be supported by some Tories as well.

:06:57.:07:00.

That is why it is difficult in an election campaign for this issue to

:07:01.:07:04.

dominate. The front page of the Sunday Times talks about a campaign

:07:05.:07:09.

relaunch, which may not, grow as a great surprise following the social

:07:10.:07:13.

care fiasco. Do we know what that will entail? It sounds like Boris

:07:14.:07:20.

Johnson will play a role. The whole point is it was all about Theresa

:07:21.:07:24.

May and it turns out that is not quite good enough. The more we have

:07:25.:07:28.

seen of Theresa May, the less impressive she has looked. Certainly

:07:29.:07:32.

the Andrew Neil interview just repeating the same thing again and

:07:33.:07:37.

again. Voters don't like that. They like people who are honest and

:07:38.:07:41.

actually engage with them. When we see beat interviews in the next few

:07:42.:07:44.

days, I think it will be interesting to see if she changes tack and tries

:07:45.:07:49.

to engage with what people are asking. If it is back to leadership

:07:50.:07:55.

and Brexit, and the economy, will that be more comfortable ground? I

:07:56.:08:03.

think so. I understand framing it in terms of Brexit. But she has got to

:08:04.:08:10.

broaden it out. I think that is why she is broadening it out. I don't

:08:11.:08:14.

think the tragic events will absolutely dominate. That would be a

:08:15.:08:22.

small victory for terrorism. This is a country of 65 million people with

:08:23.:08:26.

an awful lot of issues. We have 65 million votes, well, 65 million

:08:27.:08:33.

people with opinions in two weeks. It is quite a long campaign. There

:08:34.:08:38.

is still time to go. What do you think Labour will be focusing on

:08:39.:08:44.

from now on? I would imagine they will look very closely at where they

:08:45.:08:48.

are well ahead in the opinion polls and focus on that relentlessly.

:08:49.:08:54.

Public services, NHS etc. And try to get it off as soon as possible from

:08:55.:08:59.

security and fees is used which, on one level at least, appear to be a

:09:00.:09:03.

gift to the Conservatives. I assume that is what they are going to do.

:09:04.:09:07.

But this is a very unpredictable campaign where nothing has gone

:09:08.:09:13.

according to plan. Let's look ahead. On Wednesday evening we have got an

:09:14.:09:18.

election debate. It is in Cambridge. Leaders of some of the parties.

:09:19.:09:23.

Amber Rudd will be representing the Conservatives. We don't know yet who

:09:24.:09:28.

will represent Labour. Today we have had Amber Road and Diane Abbott

:09:29.:09:32.

against each other on Andrew Marr. Let's have a look. I think there is

:09:33.:09:38.

something to be said for a Home Secretary who has actually worked in

:09:39.:09:42.

the Home Office. I work in the home office for nearly three years as a

:09:43.:09:46.

graduate trainee. This government has always felt that urgency. That

:09:47.:09:50.

is why we have been putting in additional money. It is significant

:09:51.:09:54.

that the commission for extremism in the manifesto was put in before

:09:55.:09:59.

Manchester. We need to do more. You voted against prescribing those

:10:00.:10:04.

groups. Because there were groups on that list I deemed to be dissidents

:10:05.:10:07.

rather than terrorist organisations. We are making good progress with the

:10:08.:10:12.

companies who put in place encryption. We will continue to

:10:13.:10:18.

build on that. It was 34 years ago. I had a rather splendid Afro at the

:10:19.:10:22.

time. I don't have the same hairstyle. And I don't have the same

:10:23.:10:28.

views. It is 34 years on. The hairstyle has gone. Some of the

:10:29.:10:32.

views have gone. So you no longer, you regret what you said about the

:10:33.:10:39.

IRA? The hairstyle has gone, the views have gone. I would say to

:10:40.:10:44.

Diane Abbott that I have changed my hairstyle are few times in 34 years

:10:45.:10:49.

but I have not changed my view of how we keep the British public safe.

:10:50.:10:54.

Let's get away from hairstyle sides talk about the prospect of the two

:10:55.:10:58.

of them taking part in the election debate. Would you like to see that?

:10:59.:11:03.

On one level I would like to see it and another the level I would like

:11:04.:11:09.

to see an intelligent debate. I'm glad I never had an Afro or

:11:10.:11:14.

supported the IRA. Whenever Diane Abbott steps out in a TV studio or a

:11:15.:11:19.

radio studio, Labour haemorrhage votes. She cannot say things like my

:11:20.:11:24.

regret supporting this or that legislation. She is an absolute

:11:25.:11:31.

disaster. If Labour put her up, they are beyond mad. Who do you think

:11:32.:11:42.

Labour should put up? By the way, I did have an Afro! I based my whole

:11:43.:11:47.

log on Kevin Keegan and it was good. That is the wrong question. I will

:11:48.:11:54.

explain why. The Labour campaign, it seems to me there were only five or

:11:55.:12:04.

six people put up. That is the fault of others who refused to take part.

:12:05.:12:08.

It also shows the degree to which the current leadership can only rely

:12:09.:12:12.

on five or six people. I would imagine we are talking about a pool

:12:13.:12:17.

of five or six people. As for my judgment as to who the best public

:12:18.:12:21.

performer is in that pool, it would be by some margin John McDonnell,

:12:22.:12:24.

who is a very good interviewee and performer. I think he is a very good

:12:25.:12:33.

performer. It would come back to the economy at some point, presumably.

:12:34.:12:41.

But then it comes back to the IRA. I don't think the debate will be very

:12:42.:12:46.

illuminating. I think if Amber Rudd is there, Diane Abbott should be

:12:47.:12:50.

there. I think the leaders should be debating. Some people say it is

:12:51.:12:54.

froth. I think the leader -- the electorate gets a sense of the

:12:55.:12:58.

leaders. On haircuts, I would like to thank both of them are talking

:12:59.:13:03.

about the haircuts. I am looking forward to tomorrow's papers and the

:13:04.:13:06.

theme that will run through the week. Let's not finish on the hair.

:13:07.:13:13.

Thank you very much for being our guests. That is it for today. Thank

:13:14.:13:21.

the panel for Jonny May. Andrew Neil will be back next weekend. And I

:13:22.:13:27.

will be back on BBC Two on Tuesday. That is at midday with more daily

:13:28.:13:31.

politics. In the meantime, have a very lovely bank holiday. From all

:13:32.:13:33.

of us here, bye-bye. As voters prepare to go to the polls

:13:34.:14:08.

to choose who represents them

:14:09.:14:12.

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