Browse content similar to 28/05/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics. | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
New CCTV images are released showing suicide bomber, Salman Abedi, | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
on the night he attacked Manchester Arena, killing 22 people. | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
Are the politicians and the security services doing | :00:48. | :00:49. | |
Theresa May says Britain needs to be "stronger and more resolute" | :00:50. | :00:55. | |
in confronting extremist views, as she outlines plans | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
for a new Commission to counter extremism. | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
We'll be talking to the Security Minister. | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
Jeremy Corbyn says a Labour government would recruit 1,000 | :01:07. | :01:08. | |
more staff at security and intelligence agencies. | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
On the Sunday Politics in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire: | :01:14. | :01:15. | |
With security stepped-up across our area, we ask what impact | :01:16. | :01:18. | |
Brexit will have when to comes to the fight against terror. | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
supporters. In London, we look at what the Conservatives are offering | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
the capital, having voted Remain. To help guide me through this | :01:27. | :01:32. | |
morning, I'm joined by Steve Richards, Julia | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
Hartley-Brewer and Tim Marshall. They'll be sharing their thoughts | :01:36. | :01:36. | |
on Twitter and you can join So, with a week and a half to go, | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
the election campaign And some recent polls | :01:42. | :01:49. | |
suggest the race is just We'll be taking a closer look | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
at that in just a moment but, first, here are some of the key events over | :01:53. | :01:59. | |
the next 10 days or so: Tonight at 6pm will see the third | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
of the party leader interviews. This time it's the SNP's | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
Nicola Sturgeon facing questions While many across the UK will be | :02:08. | :02:09. | |
enjoying tomorrow's bank holiday, there will be no break | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
in campaigning for And in the evening it will be | :02:16. | :02:17. | |
the turn of Ukip's Paul Nuttall On Tuesday the SNP | :02:18. | :02:23. | |
publish their manifesto - the last of the major parties to do | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
so - after last week's Then on Wednesday, the BBC's | :02:28. | :02:30. | |
Election Debate will see representatives from the seven main | :02:31. | :02:33. | |
parties debate in front On Thursday, Lib Dem leader Tim | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
Farron will have his interview... Before Friday's Question Time | :02:38. | :02:46. | |
special with Theresa May They won't debate each other, | :02:47. | :02:48. | |
but will take questions consecutively from members | :02:49. | :02:51. | |
of the audience. The final week of campaigning | :02:52. | :02:53. | |
is a short one, with politicians cramming in three days | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
of door-knocking before voters go We'll have an exit poll once | :02:57. | :03:04. | |
voting has ended at 10pm, with the result expected early | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
in the morning of June 9th. Well, it's Sunday, and that always | :03:11. | :03:13. | |
means a spate of new opinion And they make for fascinating, | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
if a tad confusing, reading. There are five new opinion | :03:17. | :03:19. | |
polls today, which have the Conservative lead | :03:20. | :03:21. | |
over Labour anywhere from six points to 14 points. | :03:22. | :03:23. | |
So, what's going on? Professor John Curtice | :03:24. | :03:26. | |
is the expert we always turn to at times like this, | :03:27. | :03:29. | |
and he joins me from Glasgow. Take us through these polls. They | :03:30. | :03:42. | |
seem to be all over the place? They may seem to be but there is a very | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
consistent key message. Four of these five polls, if you compare | :03:49. | :03:51. | |
them with what they were saying before the Conservative manifesto | :03:52. | :03:57. | |
launch on the 18th, four say the Conservatives are down by two | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
points. Four of them say the Labour vote is up by two points. A clear | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
consistent message. The Conservative lead has narrowed. Why does this | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
matter? It matters because we are now in a position where the leads | :04:14. | :04:16. | |
are such that the Conservatives can no longer be sure of getting the | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
landslide majority they want. Some posters suggesting they may be in | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
trouble and it is going to get rather close. Others suggested is | :04:27. | :04:36. | |
further apart. There are two major sources of... The Poles agree that | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
young voters will vote Labour if they vote. Older voters will vote | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
for the Conservatives. How many of those younger voters will turn out | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
to vote? The second thing is whether the evidence in the opinion polls | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
that the Conservatives are advancing more in the North of England and the | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
Midlands is realised that the ballot box? If it is not realised, the | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
Tories chances of getting a landslide look remote. If it is, | :05:03. | :05:05. | |
they could still well indeed get a majority more than 80%. The | :05:06. | :05:12. | |
Conservatives have lost some ground depending on which opinion poll you | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
look at. What about the Labour Party? It is gaining ground. It has | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
been gaining ground ever since week one. They started on 26, they now | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
average 35. There were a lot of people out there at the beginning of | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
the campaign who were saying, I usually vote Labour but the truth is | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
I'm not sure about Jeremy Corbyn. They seem to have decided the Labour | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
manifesto wasn't so bad. They have looked at Theresa May and have said, | :05:41. | :05:47. | |
we will stick with Labour. Labour have managed to draw back into the | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
fold some of their traditional voters who were disenchanted, | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
together with, crucially, some of those younger voters who have never | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
voted before, who have always been a particular target for Jeremy Corbyn. | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
What is your reaction to previous opinion polls and elections weather | :06:05. | :06:07. | |
has been a feeling that some of the Labour support has been overstated? | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
This be a worry this time? That is one of the uncertainties that faces | :06:14. | :06:16. | |
the opinion polls and the rest of us. We had a conference on Friday at | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
which it was carefully explained that pollsters have been trying to | :06:22. | :06:27. | |
correct the errors that resulted in an overestimation of Labour support | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
a couple of years ago, particularly among younger voters. You shouldn't | :06:32. | :06:34. | |
assume the opinion polls will be wrong this time because they were | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
wrong the last time. We want in truth know whether or not the polls | :06:39. | :06:47. | |
have got it right. Even if they are wrong in terms of the level, they | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
are not wrong in terms of the trend. The trends have been dramatic so | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
far. A big rise in Tory support early on at the expense of Ukip. And | :06:56. | :07:02. | |
subsequently, a remarkable rise in Labour support, albeit from a low | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
initial baseline. This election has already seen quite a lot of | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
movement. We shouldn't rule out the possibility there will be yet more | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
in the ten days to come. That is his analysis. Let's talk to | :07:15. | :07:23. | |
the panel. Julia, how concerned should Conservative headquarters be | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
at this particular point at what looks like an apparent surge by | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
Labour? Depends if you want a massive landslide majority or might | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
not. I assume the Tory party do. Whether anybody thinks that is a | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
good idea is a different matter. Undoubtedly the manifesto league was | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
a total disaster. Social care policy and the U-turn. Lots of stuff in the | :07:47. | :07:53. | |
Labour manifesto was very appealing. The tactic from Sir Lynton Crosby | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
was clear. It is all about Theresa May. Don't even mention the | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
candidate or the party. The Labour Party, the candidates are on the | :08:04. | :08:06. | |
moderate side are saying, don't mention Jeremy Corbyn. This has been | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
a battle between two big people. The more we have seen of Theresa May, | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
she has gone down. The more we have seen of Jeremy Corbyn, he has gone | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
up. If you make it about strong and stable leadership and then you do | :08:22. | :08:24. | |
something like a massive unprecedented U-turn on a key policy | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
like social care, the knock is even greater. Do you think that is the | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
reason for the change in the opinion polls or is Labour gaining some | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
momentum? I think it is part of the reason. You can understand why the | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
focus was on her at the beginning because her personal ratings were | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
stratospheric. What is interesting is all successful leaders basically | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
cast a spell over voters in the media. None of them are titans. All | :08:48. | :08:53. | |
of them are flawed. It is a question of when the spell is broken. This is | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
a first for a leader's spell to be broken during an election campaign. | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
That was a moment of high significance. The fact the Labour | :09:03. | :09:05. | |
Party campaign is more robust than many thought it would be is the | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
other factor. I think it is the combination of the two, that the | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
trend, as Professor John Curtis said, the trend has been this | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
narrow. There has not been much campaigning. Local campaigning | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
resumed on Thursday, national campaigning on Friday. Do you think, | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
Tim Marshall, that the opinion polls are reflecting what happened in | :09:29. | :09:31. | |
Manchester and people's thoughts about which party will keep them | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
safe? No, I think that will come next week. I think it is too soon | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
for that. It was quite understandable from the V -- the | :09:41. | :09:47. | |
very beginning for Lynton Crosby to frame the campaign in terms of | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
Theresa May and Brexit. The electorate can have its own view. | :09:53. | :09:59. | |
You always have to go back to Clinton's it's the economy stupid | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
for most of the electorate. It is framed in your electricity bill. It | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
is framed in your jobs. Both manifestos have got more holes in | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
them than Swiss cheese. It comes down to which manifesto you believe. | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
The Labour manifesto makes more promises about things you care about | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
like your electricity bill. Interesting, but in the end despite | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
while we thought would be a Brexit election, it has been a lot about | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
public services. It always comes down to bread-and-butter issues. I | :10:34. | :10:35. | |
don't think we have quite seen how the terrorist you has played out. We | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
had the Westminster attack only a couple of months ago. That was | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
already factored in in terms of who you trust and who you don't trust. | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
The IRA stuff from Jeremy Corbyn is already factored in. People actually | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
care about how ordinary government policies affect their lives. Thank | :10:54. | :10:55. | |
you very much. The election campaign was, | :10:56. | :10:57. | |
of course, put on hold following the terrorist | :10:58. | :10:59. | |
attack in Manchester But now that campaigning has | :11:00. | :11:01. | |
resumed, it's hardly surprising that security | :11:02. | :11:04. | |
is now a primary concern. The Labour Party has announced it | :11:05. | :11:06. | |
would recruit 1,000 more Jeremy Corbyn, speaking on ITV at | :11:07. | :11:20. | |
short while ago, says previous cuts have undermined security. | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
It seems that the cuts in police numbers have led to some very | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
dangerous situation is emerging. It is also a question of a community | :11:30. | :11:36. | |
response as well. So that where, an imam, for example, lets the police | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
he is concerned about a muddy, I would hope they would act. And I | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
would hope we have -- and I would hope they would have the resources | :11:44. | :11:44. | |
to act as well. Joining me now from Leeds | :11:45. | :11:46. | |
is the Shadow Justice Good morning. You have announced a | :11:47. | :11:56. | |
thousand more Security and Intelligence agency staff. That is | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
in line with what the government has already announced and the Shadow | :12:01. | :12:03. | |
Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, has said you would not be spending any | :12:04. | :12:06. | |
more money. It doesn't amount to much, does it? That is just one of | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
the parts of our pledge card on the safer communities. There is also | :12:12. | :12:19. | |
10,000 extra police, because the Conservatives cut the police by | :12:20. | :12:22. | |
20,000. That 10,000 extra police would mean in -- and extra police | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
officer in each neighbourhood. There are 3000 extra put -- prison | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
officers. Prison staff has been cut by 6000. That is a third. It is not | :12:33. | :12:39. | |
helping keep communities safer. We are pledging 3000 extra | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
firefighters. Also, a thousand extra security staff and 500 extra border | :12:46. | :12:54. | |
guards. There have been 13 areas identified where our borders are not | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
as secure as they should be. That is the list of numbers you have given. | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
If we concentrate on the security services, because it was Jeremy | :13:03. | :13:05. | |
Corbyn he said there will be more police on the streets under Labour. | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
If the security sources need more resources they should get them. Why | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
aren't you giving them more? We are committing to a thousand more | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
police. The Godinet is doing that as well. You are not committing | :13:21. | :13:27. | |
anything more. The government has not delivered on that promise. We | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
will deliver on that promise is -- promise. What Jeremy has made very | :13:33. | :13:35. | |
clear is that you can't do security on the cheap. Austerity has to stop | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
at the police station door, and at the hospital door. But we will be | :13:41. | :13:46. | |
giving the resources required to keep our communities safer. So you | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
will give them the resources and more powers? Well, the police need | :13:51. | :13:56. | |
to be empowered. But when you listen to what the Police Federation are | :13:57. | :13:59. | |
saying, they have been speaking out for a long time about the danger | :14:00. | :14:07. | |
caused by police cuts. And I'm talking not only about terrorism, | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
not only about acts of extreme violence, but anything from | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
anti-social behaviour to burglary. Use it more powers. What sort of | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
powers are you thinking of giving the security services? We need to | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
listen to them. That is not a power. We need to listen to the | :14:28. | :14:30. | |
intelligence community and the security service, to the army and | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
the police, about what they think and how they think our communities | :14:37. | :14:39. | |
could be made safe. One thing is clear. Cutting the number of police | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
by 20,000 makes our community is less safe, not more safe. You said | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
you will listen to the security services. Can voters be reassured | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
and guaranteed that Jeremy Corbyn will listen to the security services | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
and the police in terms of more powers if that is what they want? | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
Until now he has spent his whole political career voting against | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
measures designed to tackle home-grown and international | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
terrorism. Jeremy Corbyn's speech on safer communities earlier this week | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
made clear he is listening to the security services. So he would grant | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
those new powers. He voted against the terrorism Act in 2000, into | :15:23. | :15:30. | |
thousands and six. In 2011. And in 2014, the data retention and | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
investigatory Powers act. Which new powers will he be happy to enact? | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
Just to say, Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
many Conservative MPs, voted against legislation where they thought it | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
would be ill-advised, ineffective or actually counter-productive. It is a | :15:49. | :15:51. | |
very complex situation. What we don't want to do is introduce | :15:52. | :15:58. | |
hastily prepared laws with one eye to the newspaper headlines, which | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
can act as recruiting sergeants for terrorism. And actually, when I said | :16:03. | :16:05. | |
earlier that Jeremy Corbyn made clear in his speech this week that | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
he has been listening to the security services, what he said | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
about the international situation has also been said by the former | :16:13. | :16:18. | |
head of MI5, Stella Rimington, and her predecessor. As well as | :16:19. | :16:20. | |
president of back -- President Barack Obama. | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
You say he will give the police and security services the resources and | :16:27. | :16:32. | |
powers they need. If we look back at some of the legislation Jeremy | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
Corbyn and others voted against in 2000, it gave the Secretary of State | :16:37. | :16:46. | |
the -- new powers... Does Jeremy Corbyn still think that is a bad | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
idea? Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
others... I know you want to bracket it with Conservatives but I'm | :16:58. | :17:00. | |
interested in what Jeremy Corbyn will do when he says we are going to | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
be smarter about fighting terrorism. If he's not prepared to vote in | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
favour of those sorts of measures, or trying to impose restrictions on | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
suspects, I'm trying to find out what he will do. It is a complex | :17:14. | :17:20. | |
situation. With this legislation the devil is often in the detail. If it | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
was a simple and stopping terrorism by voting a piece of legislation | :17:25. | :17:27. | |
through Parliament, it would have been stopped a long time ago. Sadly | :17:28. | :17:35. | |
there are no easy answers, and that is recognised by Barack Obama, | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
Stella Rimington, the head of the MI5, by David Davis and other | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
Conservative MPs. What is clear, as Jeremy made clear in his speech this | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
week, is the way things are being done currently is not working. We | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
have got to be tough on terrorism and the unforgivable acts of murder, | :17:53. | :17:56. | |
but also tough on the causes of terrorism as well. The sad truth is | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
there are no easy answers. If there were, the problem would have been | :18:03. | :18:14. | |
solved a long time ago. If you more security and terrorism officers but | :18:15. | :18:16. | |
your leader is still uncomfortable with giving them the powers they | :18:17. | :18:19. | |
need to do their jobs because it is complicated legislation, they will | :18:20. | :18:22. | |
want to know how you are going to do it. At another stop the War rally in | :18:23. | :18:31. | |
2014, Jeremy Corbyn said the murder of a charity worker was jingoism. At | :18:32. | :18:40. | |
the beginning of that speech he mentioned the importance of the | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
one-minute silence for the memory of Alan Henning who was murdered. What | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
he has also made clear is responsibility for acts of terrorism | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
and murder lies with the murder, and something that's really disappointed | :18:54. | :19:01. | |
me is that the Prime Minister said the other day that in Jeremy | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
Corbyn's speech on this on Monday, he said... Whether she agrees with | :19:06. | :19:19. | |
him on his politics, she knows he didn't say that in his speech, but | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
what troubles me is you have got a Prime Minister who must have sat | :19:24. | :19:26. | |
down with her advisers earlier that day and said, well I do know he | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
didn't say that but if we say he did we might win some votes. I think | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
that is shameful and it shows Theresa May cannot be trusted. These | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
issues should transcend party politics. We need to pull together | :19:39. | :19:40. | |
on this issue. Thank you very much. Well, the Conservatives have | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
promised a new statutory commission The party says it will identify | :19:45. | :19:47. | |
extremism, including the "non-violent" kind, | :19:48. | :19:50. | |
and help communities stand up to it. Also this morning, | :19:51. | :19:52. | |
the Security Minister, Ben Wallace, has attacked internet giants | :19:53. | :19:54. | |
for failing to tackle terror online, and accused them | :19:55. | :19:56. | |
of being ruthless money-makers. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. | :19:57. | :20:09. | |
Those comments you have made about social media companies failing in | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
their responsibility to take down extremist material, what will you do | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
to compel them? I think we will look at the range of options. The Germans | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
have proposed a fine, we are not sure whether that will work, but | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
there are range of pressures we can put onto some of these companies. | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
Some have complied. In the article in the Sunday Telegraph today I did | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
say it is not all of them. They are not immune to pressure. We can do | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
internationally, and the Prime Minister urged at the G7 and | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
international response. I think there are a range of issues. We | :20:46. | :20:52. | |
could change the law. You mentioned the G7, and rhetoric and warm words | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
are fine to an extent but it is action people want. If you have made | :20:58. | :21:00. | |
these impassioned remarks in the newspapers about them failing to do | :21:01. | :21:07. | |
the job, people want to know what powers do you have now to say to | :21:08. | :21:10. | |
social media companies take down this material? We have an act that | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
was recently passed. In this area we have just finished consulting on one | :21:16. | :21:21. | |
of the areas we could use but we cannot pre-empt the consultation. We | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
have right now officials from my department over in the United States | :21:28. | :21:30. | |
with American officials working with CSPs because what we see is that | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
they do respond to pressure. The best example is we think they have | :21:36. | :21:42. | |
the technology and the capability to change the algorithms they use that | :21:43. | :21:49. | |
maximise profit over safety. But you are relying on these companies | :21:50. | :21:52. | |
devoting more resources to this line of work that you would like to see | :21:53. | :21:55. | |
them do. Have you got any evidence they will do that? They said, only a | :21:56. | :22:01. | |
few weeks ago before the election was called the Home Secretary hosted | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
a Round Table with them. We have evidence they are trying to improve | :22:06. | :22:11. | |
it. A few are refusing to or being difficult, and that's why the Prime | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
Minister was right to step up not only the language she was using but | :22:16. | :22:18. | |
to say we are not going to allow this to progress any more. People | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
will be worried about who will make the judgment about what is | :22:24. | :22:25. | |
unacceptable and what should be taken down. Let me show you this, | :22:26. | :22:32. | |
which was shared widely across social media. If you read that quote | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
you could argue it is at the same end if you like. The man in the | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
picture is a terrorist hate preacher, the jihadist who was | :22:42. | :22:47. | |
killed in Yemen by the Americans. Is this the sort of thing you would be | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
demanding social media companies take down? You have to look at the | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
context it was deployed in. I could show you some of the 270,000 pieces | :22:57. | :23:02. | |
we have had removed since 2010 from internet sites that have been | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
extreme. The big issue is not often the individual image, it is the way | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
these companies set up the algorithms to link you. If you were | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
watching that on Facebook delivered to you, perhaps you would like to | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
look at this, because that's how they set it up. If you go onto | :23:21. | :23:27. | |
YouTube, you can get let down the path from looking at Manchester... I | :23:28. | :23:36. | |
understand your example, but from a practical level are you expecting | :23:37. | :23:39. | |
media companies to take down that sort of posts if it appeared? Yes... | :23:40. | :23:47. | |
You are? Who will make the decisions about what will radicalise young | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
people that could lead someone down the path to let off a bomb? If I | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
invite your viewers to look at the work the Guardian have done on | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
Facebook guidance, to say for example it is OK to produce videos | :24:02. | :24:07. | |
or broadcast videos of seven-year-olds being bullied as | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
long as it wasn't accompanied by captions, I don't think you need to | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
be an expert to say that is not acceptable. Something more worrying | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
for you as a journalist and me as a politician, another set of guidance | :24:20. | :24:25. | |
that says... I think this is quite menacing... That certain people | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
don't deserve our protection. That includes journalists and politicians | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
and people who are controversial. So I think there is more work to be | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
done but at the end of the day it is the pathway this stuff leads to. It | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
is more about examining how much progress you can make. The | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
Government says there are up to 23,000 potential terrorist attackers | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
in this country, 3000 of those posing a serious threat being | :24:54. | :25:04. | |
monitored. That is pretty disturbing, these are big numbers. | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
Yes, and the tragedy of Manchester shows this is not about failure, it | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
is about the scale of the challenge we face and that is why it is | :25:14. | :25:16. | |
important that alongside people is powers. Should you double the size | :25:17. | :25:24. | |
of MI5 for example? We have increased year-on-year in real terms | :25:25. | :25:27. | |
not only the money but the numbers of people in MI5. It is now 2000 we | :25:28. | :25:33. | |
have committed to increased to... Before the attack. Before our | :25:34. | :25:39. | |
manifesto we had recruited, we have increased the whole of government | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
spending on counterterrorism from ?11.7 billion in 2015 up to 15.7 | :25:44. | :25:53. | |
billion. Would you expand the number of people in MI5? I have asked them | :25:54. | :26:00. | |
on a regular basis if they have the resource if they are happy with it, | :26:01. | :26:05. | |
and the answer comes back time and time again, yes we are. You have | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
quite extensive powers at your disposal, the question is if you are | :26:10. | :26:15. | |
using them. Measures were introduced in 2012 to replace control orders, | :26:16. | :26:22. | |
but they have rarely been used. Only seven are currently in operation. | :26:23. | :26:30. | |
Why? Because there are a whole... It is just one tool in the tool box. | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
Other powers we use, we take away people's passports if we think they | :26:36. | :26:43. | |
are about to travel. How many? I cannot comment, it is a sensitive | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
issue. Plenty of people are finding their passport has been removed and | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
at the same time we strip people of citizenship to make sure they don't | :26:52. | :26:57. | |
come back. On top of that, because of the investment made in GCHQ, MI5 | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
and counterterrorism, we have more powers and more ability to monitor | :27:03. | :27:08. | |
them. But are you using them enough? Only seven TPIMs are in operation. | :27:09. | :27:16. | |
You won't give me any of the other measures at your disposal, but if | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
they are only in single figures, that doesn't seem to compare with | :27:21. | :27:26. | |
the numbers who are being monitored. Also, we have to strike a balance | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
between... We have to satisfy the court so we have to make sure there | :27:32. | :27:34. | |
is enough evidence to restrict people's freedoms. TPIMs do all | :27:35. | :27:42. | |
sorts of good things to keep people safe. It sends people away from | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
where they live, it tags them... I tell you why they are better. The | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
control orders were on track to be struck down by the courts because | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
one of the things we have to satisfy is the courts but we also have to | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
satisfy, we have to make sure we get the balance between the community is | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
right and the measures we take. If we alienate our communities, we | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
won't get the intelligence that allows us to catch it. There is no | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
point in having more police and intelligence services if you don't | :28:16. | :28:21. | |
give them the powers to do the job. Jeremy Corbyn were licensed James | :28:22. | :28:33. | |
Bond to do precisely nothing. And -- thank you. | :28:34. | :28:35. | |
The revelation that the Manchester suicide bomber, 22-year-old | :28:36. | :28:43. | |
Salman Abedi, was born in this country has raised fresh concerns | :28:44. | :28:46. | |
about the effectiveness of the UK's counter-extremism policy. | :28:47. | :28:48. | |
In a moment we'll be talking to two people who've spent their careers | :28:49. | :28:51. | |
investigating radicalisation in the UK. | :28:52. | :28:52. | |
Douglas Murray, of the Henry Jackson Society, | :28:53. | :28:54. | |
and Sara Khan, author of The Battle for British Islam and CEO | :28:55. | :28:57. | |
of the counter-extremism organisation Inspire. | :28:58. | :28:58. | |
We asked both for a personal take on how to confront the problem | :28:59. | :29:01. | |
of Islamist extremism. First up, here's Douglas Murray. | :29:02. | :29:04. | |
Even after all these dead, all this mourning and defiance, | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
We remain stuck in the John Lennon response to terrorism - | :29:10. | :29:27. | |
Our politicians still refuse to accurately identify | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
the sources of the problem, and polite society | :29:32. | :29:32. | |
This country gave asylum to the Libyan parents of Salman Abedi. | :29:33. | :29:39. | |
Their son repaid that generosity by killing 22 British people, | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
one for each year of life this country had given him. | :29:44. | :29:50. | |
We need to think far more deeply about all this. | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
Eastern Europe doesn't have an Islamic terrorism problem | :29:55. | :29:57. | |
France has the worst problem because it has the most Islam. | :29:58. | :30:05. | |
Are we ever going to draw any lessons from this? | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
For the time being, the game is to be as inoffensive as possible. | :30:10. | :30:17. | |
The rot isn't just within the Muslim communities. | :30:18. | :30:20. | |
Consider all those retired British officials and others who shill, | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
and are in the pay of the Saudis and other foreign states, | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
even while they pump the extreme versions of Islam into our country. | :30:29. | :30:34. | |
It is high time we became serious too. | :30:35. | :30:44. | |
Islamist extremism is flourishing in our country. | :30:45. | :30:52. | |
We're failing to defeat it, so what can we do about it? | :30:53. | :30:59. | |
Whenever I say we must counter those Muslim organisations | :31:00. | :31:02. | |
who are promoting hatred, discrimination, and sometimes even | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
violence, I'm often either ignored by some politicians out | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
of a misplaced fear of cultural sensitivity, or I find myself | :31:12. | :31:14. | |
experiencing abuse by some of my fellow Muslims. | :31:15. | :31:17. | |
These groups and their sympathisers tour Muslim communities, | :31:18. | :31:26. | |
hold events, and have hundreds of thousands of followers | :31:27. | :31:29. | |
Yet there is little counter challenge to their toxic | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
anti-Western narrative, which includes opposition | :31:34. | :31:39. | |
I've seen politicians and charities partner | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
with and support some of these voices and groups. | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
Many anti-racist groups will challenge those on the far | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
right but not Muslim hate preachers, in the erroneous belief that to do | :31:56. | :31:58. | |
But it's Islamophobic not to challenge them because it implies | :31:59. | :32:05. | |
Following the attack on Monday, it cannot be business as usual. | :32:06. | :32:15. | |
We must counter those who seek to divide us. | :32:16. | :32:24. | |
Sarah Karen Allen Douglas Murray join me know. You wrote a book, | :32:25. | :32:31. | |
strange death of Europe. What did you mean in your film when you said, | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
let's get serious? Several things. Let me give you one example. The | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
young man who carried out this atrocious attack was a student at | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
Salford University for two years. He was on a campus which is, from its | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
leadership to its student leadership, opposes all aspects of | :32:52. | :32:54. | |
the government's only counter extremism programme. They boast they | :32:55. | :32:59. | |
are boycotting it. They always did this. The university he was at was | :33:00. | :33:05. | |
against the only counter extremism policy this state has. This is just | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
one example of a much bigger problem. What are you suggesting? | :33:11. | :33:16. | |
Shut down the University? Force them to change their policies? I think in | :33:17. | :33:26. | |
the case of Salford, which discourages students from reporting | :33:27. | :33:33. | |
Islamic extremism... When you discover you have produced a suicide | :33:34. | :33:37. | |
bomber in Manchester, you should be held responsible. What do you say to | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
that? I think it is quite clear from I am experienced there have been | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
politicians who have undermined Prevent, community organisations, | :33:48. | :33:50. | |
Islamist groups who have been at the forefront of undermining and | :33:51. | :33:56. | |
countering Prevent, but also wider counter extremism measures. Islamist | :33:57. | :34:02. | |
-- Islamist extremes and has flourished in this country. If | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
Summer Rae had given us a crystal ball ten years ago and said, look | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
forward and you will see hundreds of people leave this country to join | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
Isis, we will have hundreds of people convicted of Islamist | :34:16. | :34:17. | |
offences, I think we would have been quite shocked that things have got | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
worse as opposed to getting better. Douglas Murray, the essence of your | :34:23. | :34:25. | |
argument when you made the comparison between the numbers of | :34:26. | :34:28. | |
Muslims in other countries is that we have too much Islam in Britain? | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
The aunt Tilly Muslim Brotherhood give is that the answer to | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
absolutely everything is Islam. Less Islam is a good thing. Let me | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
finish. The Islamic world is in the middle of a very serious problem. It | :34:44. | :34:46. | |
has been going on since the beginning. I think it is not worth | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
continuing to risk our own security simply in order to be politically | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
correct. I would disagree with Douglas on that. Nobody is going to | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
deny that since the end of the 20th century there has been a rise in | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
Islamist extreme terror organisations. Yes, there is a | :35:05. | :35:08. | |
crisis within contemporary Islam, but there is a class. There are | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
competing claims about what the faith stands for. While we are | :35:14. | :35:15. | |
seeing Islamist terror organisations, leading theologians | :35:16. | :35:21. | |
are saying that the concept of a caliphate is outdated. Muslims | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
should be adopting a human rights culture. I entirely agree with that. | :35:27. | :35:32. | |
There are obviously people trying to counter that. I would urge us to | :35:33. | :35:37. | |
take the long view. In the history of Islam there have been many | :35:38. | :35:41. | |
reformers. Most of the time they have ended a up being the ones on | :35:42. | :35:45. | |
the brunt of the violence. I deeply resent what you and others do in | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
this country. I want you to win. But they are a Billy good minority. A | :35:51. | :35:56. | |
poll last year found that two thirds of British Muslims found they would | :35:57. | :35:58. | |
not report a family member they found to be involved in extremism to | :35:59. | :36:06. | |
the police. You are proposing more Draconian measures. I wish they | :36:07. | :36:13. | |
could win. We should do everything we can to support people like that. | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
What we should recognise the scale of the problem is beyond our current | :36:18. | :36:23. | |
understanding. You counter radicalisation on a university | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
campus or online? Discussion we had with Ben Wallace about the material | :36:28. | :36:33. | |
that is out there. If we pursue in a hard-line way perhaps the sort of | :36:34. | :36:36. | |
thing Douglas Murray is suggesting, gone is freedom of speech, gone is | :36:37. | :36:44. | |
freedom of debate and discussion? The best way to counter extremism is | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
through the prism of human rights. We cannot abandon our human rights | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
to fight extremism. Where I think we are going wrong, where there is a | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
gap, is the lack of counter work to challenge Islamist ideals. How many | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
people are going to say we need to counter that strict narrative? That | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
is where we are not doing enough work. What about the human rights | :37:11. | :37:17. | |
point, that you cannot take away people's human rights? I'm not | :37:18. | :37:20. | |
suggesting that. I'm suggesting we do things that ensure that 22 people | :37:21. | :37:27. | |
don't get blown up on an average Monday again, OK? Dissent to be | :37:28. | :37:33. | |
opposed to people want to blow up our daughters is not opposing human | :37:34. | :37:39. | |
rights. If you're taking government money and you are an institution | :37:40. | :37:42. | |
like Salford University you should be held responsible for not | :37:43. | :37:45. | |
cooperating with standard security measures. You can challenge | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
extremism without abandoning human rights. We have got to actually | :37:51. | :37:57. | |
counter the Islamist narrative. We're not doing enough. This is not | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
about closing down free speech. This is encouraging it. This is the most | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
effective way of countering the Islamist narrative. Why isn't it | :38:06. | :38:13. | |
doing better? A number of reasons. One is there is a denial taking | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
place. A lot of apologetics. Part of it is the way we talk about Muslims | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
in this country. We use the term Muslim community as if they are | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
homogenous. There is a positive trend but there is a negative trend | :38:28. | :38:30. | |
among British Muslims. We need to counter those promoting the idea | :38:31. | :38:34. | |
that Muslims are part of a collective identity. I agree. It is | :38:35. | :38:40. | |
also the case there is massive push back because a lot of Muslims are | :38:41. | :38:43. | |
defending the faith in this country. We think we can push them down a | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
better path but they are defending absolutely everything. We need to | :38:48. | :38:50. | |
get real about that. Thank you very much. | :38:51. | :38:52. | |
It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics. | :38:53. | :38:54. | |
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now | :38:55. | :38:57. | |
Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead. | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
Hello, a very good morning, you're watching the Sunday Politics | :39:03. | :39:05. | |
Today we're just how safe are we in our part | :39:06. | :39:08. | |
of the world when it comes to the threat from terrorism? | :39:09. | :39:11. | |
And we hear from a group of young voters. | :39:12. | :39:13. | |
What are their thoughts on the campaign in a week | :39:14. | :39:15. | |
We have grown up with terrorism and I think it's an important issue | :39:16. | :39:21. | |
that younger people do want to do something about. | :39:22. | :39:30. | |
Six people from our side of the Pennines are known to have died | :39:31. | :39:33. | |
Many more are being treated for injuries sustained in the attack. | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
On the doorsteps of Yorkshire and Lincolnshire this weekend, | :39:38. | :39:40. | |
politicians are being asked what more can be done to tackle | :39:41. | :39:43. | |
the evil scourge of terrorism and what extra measures are in place | :39:44. | :39:46. | |
to try to keep us safe. Richard Edwards reports. | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
Wendy Fowell from Otley, Sorrell Leczkowski from Leeds, | :39:52. | :39:55. | |
Angelika and Marcin Klis from York, Kelly Brewster from Sheffield, | :39:56. | :39:58. | |
Courtney Boyle, a student at Leeds Beckett University - | :39:59. | :40:05. | |
all people from our region who went to a concert and didn't come home, | :40:06. | :40:09. | |
victims of an Islamic extremist born and raised in Manchester. | :40:10. | :40:17. | |
And in response, moments of silence across Yorkshire. | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
And also in response, this is now a familiar sight | :40:22. | :40:29. | |
on the streets of Yorkshire's cities - armed officers out on patrol. | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
It's a county that has its own unhappy history | :40:35. | :40:38. | |
The 7/7 suicide bombers were raised in Leeds and in Huddersfield, | :40:39. | :40:44. | |
and it was less than two miles from here that the then Batley | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
and Spen MP Jo Cox was murdered by far right terrorist | :40:49. | :40:51. | |
Thomas Mair as she arrived for a constituency surgery. | :40:52. | :40:58. | |
As well as terrorists being born and brought up in Yorkshire, | :40:59. | :41:00. | |
our region has often seen extremists on its streets and, in the past, | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
The far right making home of West Yorkshire in particular. | :41:05. | :41:10. | |
Every time there's been an atrocity, people have tried | :41:11. | :41:12. | |
to use it to divide us and so far they've failed. | :41:13. | :41:15. | |
People in this country refuse to bow down to terrorism and extremism | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
and people have come together, people are standing up together. | :41:21. | :41:23. | |
We saw it in London and we see it again. | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
Here we are in Bradford today and people of all different | :41:29. | :41:31. | |
We're not going to be divided by terrorists in this country. | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
The important thing is that we are standing together. | :41:36. | :41:37. | |
The politicians should come together and then sit to try to find | :41:38. | :41:43. | |
a strategy or solution to this problem. | :41:44. | :41:46. | |
I just think it's so tragically sad for everybody, particularly | :41:47. | :41:52. | |
the 99.9% of Muslims who have got absolutely nothing to do with it. | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
When we educate people about how these terrorists are going about, | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
It's a political issue, that's my point of view. | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
UKIP were on their general election campaign trail in Grimsby this week. | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
Leader Paul Nuttall says the Muslim community needs to do more | :42:14. | :42:16. | |
It seems as if this young man was hopping in and out of Libya | :42:17. | :42:22. | |
and he may well have been to Syria and trained by Islamic State. | :42:23. | :42:25. | |
But beyond that, the Muslim community itself has got to step up | :42:26. | :42:29. | |
to the plate and report people to the police. | :42:30. | :42:31. | |
It seems as if some within the mosque, where this man went, | :42:32. | :42:36. | |
knew two years ago he had sympathies with Islamic State. | :42:37. | :42:39. | |
He should have been reported to the police earlier. | :42:40. | :42:41. | |
The challenge facing whichever party forms the next government is this - | :42:42. | :42:44. | |
working out how to tackle extremism in all its forms. | :42:45. | :42:56. | |
That was Richard Edwards reporting and we are giant alive today by | :42:57. | :43:09. | |
Labour's and, conservative and the campaign group just Yorkshire. We | :43:10. | :43:12. | |
have seen were armed police officers on the street, soldiers guarding | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
public buildings, some up the mood for us as you see it. Are people | :43:17. | :43:28. | |
angry, defiant? I think we must stand together, we must not start | :43:29. | :43:32. | |
blaming all Muslims for what happened any more than we should | :43:33. | :43:35. | |
blame that dreadful man who killed Jo Cox. We can't blame the whole of | :43:36. | :43:42. | |
the white community for what he did, so we mustn't start blaming Muslims. | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
Despite what Paul Nuttall is seen, I don't know when that was filmed, but | :43:48. | :43:52. | |
I understand that people at the mosque where that man and terrorist | :43:53. | :43:59. | |
worshipped did actually inform the police about their anxieties about | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
him. We can't blame them either. Just look forward and try to look | :44:05. | :44:07. | |
forward with friendship towards people. I think my position is | :44:08. | :44:16. | |
appreciated more about Muslims than people who have no religion at all. | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
I'm not sure about why that should be, but it is the case. We have had | :44:21. | :44:26. | |
tough talk from Theresa May this week but you are a former Home | :44:27. | :44:29. | |
Office minister. If she could go back to her time as Home Secretary, | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
would she have cut police numbers to the extent that she did? I don't | :44:34. | :44:40. | |
think the absolute number in terms of police, it is one element, but I | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
don't think it's the only element we are talking about here in relation | :44:46. | :44:51. | |
to people's security. 18,000 fewer police officers, you are seeing that | :44:52. | :44:55. | |
doesn't make a difference? I think these things can all have some kind | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
of contribution. I really do feel very strongly that it it is the | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
direction of policy as much as it is just numbers. Concentrating just | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
numbers is my view the wrong thing to do. People deserve to have | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
security, whether it is security from the point of view of aggression | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
or violence in the internally in this country of whether it is a tax | :45:20. | :45:23. | |
on their way of life by these appalling terrorist acts. From | :45:24. | :45:27. | |
wherever they come, whatever sector of society or whatever part of the | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
world, they are entitled as a matter of some priority to security and | :45:33. | :45:36. | |
governments have to make decisions so that there are security is | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
guaranteed. That is my priority. We will talk about security issues in | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
detail any moment, but let me ask you, what do you make of those | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
comments from Paul Nuttall when he said, these are his words, the | :45:50. | :45:52. | |
Muslim community needs to step up to the plate to the threat from Terra? | :45:53. | :46:00. | |
Let me make it clear, the Muslim committee did everything they could | :46:01. | :46:04. | |
in relation to this case. The need the appropriate referrals, they even | :46:05. | :46:08. | |
actually banned this person from the mosque. Frankly, there is not a | :46:09. | :46:12. | |
great deal more the Muslim committee could do. I just want to quote what | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
Andy Burnham said, this man who committed this atrocity is no more a | :46:17. | :46:22. | |
Muslim than the person who murdered Jo Cox. It is completely unfair to | :46:23. | :46:28. | |
consistently labelled the Muslim community in terms of them in | :46:29. | :46:31. | |
needing to do more, this is a much broader issue, this is not an | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
Islamic issue, this is about a number of factors, a very complex | :46:36. | :46:40. | |
issue and what we need right now is quite calm heads. It is not 1 | :46:41. | :46:43. | |
million miles from what David Cameron said when he was PM, he said | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
it was time for the silent majority of Muslims to stand up and fight | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
extremism. Those were assigned to different to what Paul Nuttall said, | :46:53. | :47:00. | |
ID? No, not. I am a Muslim, I have grown up here, I am 46 years old and | :47:01. | :47:05. | |
I also understand about some of the conversations that take place within | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
the Muslim community. I think there has got to be a space where we can | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
actually have quite open and transparent dialogue. I don't | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
actually see the silent majority. When we saw 132 children killed, | :47:21. | :47:26. | |
when we saw this tragedy that took place in Manchester, the Muslim | :47:27. | :47:28. | |
community and the broader committee came together. I don't know a single | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
person who did not come and stand together in the face of this | :47:33. | :47:38. | |
adversity. You represented Keighley in parliament, an area with a large | :47:39. | :47:41. | |
Muslim population, I know you have never shied away from tackling | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
difficult issues. What more needs to be done to try to prevent young | :47:46. | :47:50. | |
people from being radicalised from being dragged into this evil vacuum | :47:51. | :47:56. | |
of Terra? It is very, very difficult. Because I haven't been | :47:57. | :48:07. | |
the MP3 Keighley for seven years, I am not sure what's going on in the | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
mosques there. But certainly I am hoping that the community leaders | :48:12. | :48:17. | |
and imams, the people who the centres, teachers, I hope and trust | :48:18. | :48:24. | |
that they are taking the line that the behaviour of that man who | :48:25. | :48:30. | |
committed that dreadful crime on Monday are not Muslims. There is no | :48:31. | :48:36. | |
connection between what he did and Islam. What he did is totally | :48:37. | :48:42. | |
unknown Islamic. I hope that is the line that has been taken in | :48:43. | :48:48. | |
Keighley. I only go to Keighley occasionally. You were involved with | :48:49. | :48:58. | |
bringing in quite a bit of European anti-terror legislation. While at | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
Corporation between European countries continue after Brexit? It | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
has to, it is the simple fact. I spent the last ten years of my | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
political career working on and in some cases instigating legislation | :49:11. | :49:15. | |
which has been to bring co-operative levels between our intelligence | :49:16. | :49:18. | |
agencies and our police forces right across Europe much closer together. | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
We currently have a European police force, Europe, which is run by a | :49:25. | :49:30. | |
British officer, we have got an awful lot of importing exchanges | :49:31. | :49:33. | |
going on right now, including something was recent legislation in | :49:34. | :49:39. | |
which information about the movements of terrorists or potential | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
terrorists is no one in real time between our police forces and | :49:44. | :49:47. | |
intelligence agencies. This has actually resulted already, it is not | :49:48. | :49:50. | |
completely in place, been put in place, but it has resulted already | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
in the deterrence of an prevention of a considerable number of | :49:55. | :49:57. | |
terrorist attacks. Are you talking about tracking flight movements? One | :49:58. | :50:04. | |
of the things I was putting the report together, it went through | :50:05. | :50:07. | |
legislation, it was supported fully by the British Government yet and | :50:08. | :50:11. | |
all other governments as well. It has been significantly important to | :50:12. | :50:14. | |
detect the movements of people who can cause us harm. The man in | :50:15. | :50:19. | |
Manchester may well have been under description of being a homebred | :50:20. | :50:22. | |
terrorist, but the truth is that he was away from this country, being | :50:23. | :50:28. | |
radicalised and on his trip back, he actually went through European | :50:29. | :50:32. | |
countries and the information we will be able to obtain in future for | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
those sort of movements would in fact in my view be very important to | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
us. Those things cannot be lost. Have you had a guarantee from | :50:43. | :50:46. | |
Theresa May, the Home Secretary Amber Rudd that this programme will | :50:47. | :50:50. | |
happen after Brexit so that European countries will be able to share | :50:51. | :50:55. | |
information? For the 67 years I was involved in putting together some of | :50:56. | :50:59. | |
these things, the Home Secretary was 110% supportive of me. That was to | :51:00. | :51:05. | |
reason me. We cannot allow the circumstances of Brexit are getting | :51:06. | :51:08. | |
the way of security, whatever else it might have to be comprised on, we | :51:09. | :51:15. | |
cannot compromise the its agreements, those new relationships, | :51:16. | :51:18. | |
because frankly they have taken off a lot of effort by myself and many | :51:19. | :51:21. | |
others as well to put together and I am not prepared and I'm sure many | :51:22. | :51:24. | |
others are not prepared to allow that to put our security in | :51:25. | :51:26. | |
jeopardy. This week we arranged to film | :51:27. | :51:28. | |
with a group of politics students from Sheffield Hallam University, | :51:29. | :51:31. | |
many of them first time voters, about the election issues | :51:32. | :51:33. | |
that matter to them. But, of course, the events | :51:34. | :51:35. | |
of the week meant our discussion was dominated | :51:36. | :51:38. | |
by one subject above all other. BBC Radio Sheffield political | :51:39. | :51:40. | |
reporter Charlotte Rose asked them how the atrocity would shape | :51:41. | :51:42. | |
the election landscape. Are the events in Manchester | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
going to have an impact I think the problem | :51:48. | :51:49. | |
with it is we need to understand what the media are going to say | :51:50. | :51:55. | |
in the next couple of weeks. It's really scary to know | :51:56. | :51:58. | |
the influence that the media can have on people's thoughts, | :51:59. | :52:01. | |
especially the fact that most of the major, or all the major | :52:02. | :52:05. | |
newspapers and what have I think that there's going to be | :52:06. | :52:08. | |
a real exploitation of this on the people's emotions, | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
especially in recent weeks with the problems with | :52:14. | :52:17. | |
the supposed sympathy That's going to be another thing | :52:18. | :52:20. | |
that's really exploited over Unfortunately, I do believe | :52:21. | :52:26. | |
that it will have an affect on young people's votes, | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
not myself as I've already decided who I'm going to vote for, | :52:31. | :52:33. | |
and I vote for policies that are going to work | :52:34. | :52:36. | |
best for the country. But I feel speaking to fellow peers | :52:37. | :52:39. | |
and other students my age, we have grown up with terrorism | :52:40. | :52:42. | |
and I think it is an important issue that younger people do | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
want to do something about, because obviously something | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
is not doing anything at the moment and I do think it | :52:52. | :52:52. | |
will affect young people. Coming over here, do | :52:53. | :52:55. | |
you think it might change I don't think young students | :52:56. | :52:58. | |
would change significantly the way they vote because I think there's | :52:59. | :53:03. | |
many significant issues regarding young people, | :53:04. | :53:07. | |
regarding the housing benefits amongst 18-21 year olds, | :53:08. | :53:11. | |
and also tuition fees. I think the older generations | :53:12. | :53:14. | |
are going to see this as more of a threat than the younger | :53:15. | :53:17. | |
generations in terms I think it's going to go | :53:18. | :53:19. | |
more towards the right But I don't think it's really | :53:20. | :53:24. | |
going to affect the younger voters. There's more pressing issues that | :53:25. | :53:28. | |
really affect students. Because as you said earlier, | :53:29. | :53:30. | |
we are seeing this all the time now. It's sad and it's very | :53:31. | :53:33. | |
shocking, but it's not For both of you, do you think | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
that this event that has happened in Manchester would change the way | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
that you think about voting? My mindset, personally, | :53:42. | :53:45. | |
is already set in terms As we saw with the referendum last | :53:46. | :53:47. | |
year, the problem where sadly Jo Cox was murdered in cold blood, that | :53:48. | :53:55. | |
didn't change the referendum result. Because nobody played on that, | :53:56. | :53:59. | |
because it was a horrible and tragic I don't believe it is the position | :54:00. | :54:02. | |
of politicians to play on the hearts and minds of the electorate, | :54:03. | :54:08. | |
with tragic events. Instead, we should be focusing | :54:09. | :54:11. | |
on policies that work Do you think it will have an impact | :54:12. | :54:14. | |
in terms of community relations, about the way we talk | :54:15. | :54:19. | |
about divisions in our society? It could quite possibly further | :54:20. | :54:25. | |
division depending on how the media choose to portray incidents | :54:26. | :54:29. | |
of the tragic event which occured. We don't want this to be a spring | :54:30. | :54:35. | |
board for the far right, Like, Marine Le Pen | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
got 11 million votes. People celebrated | :54:40. | :54:42. | |
that Macron had won. 11 million votes for someone who's | :54:43. | :54:44. | |
of those views, of that far right. We could either see | :54:45. | :54:47. | |
a resurgence of some sort I feel like the Conservative | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
manifesto is pretty authoritarian already, but we could see them | :54:53. | :54:57. | |
lurching to the right. And pretty much what they want | :54:58. | :55:00. | |
is a blank cheque. And tonight from 7.30, | :55:01. | :55:06. | |
we're hosting a special Facebook debate on the issues for younger | :55:07. | :55:13. | |
voters in this election. We'll hear from different | :55:14. | :55:15. | |
groups of young people about their experiences | :55:16. | :55:17. | |
and what matters most That's at 7.30 tonight on the BBC | :55:18. | :55:19. | |
Look North Yorkshire Facebook page. Definitely worth watching. | :55:20. | :55:36. | |
Interesting you from those young voters, they seem to be concerned of | :55:37. | :55:40. | |
the events of this week and the threat from Terra didn't lead to a | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
lurch to the far right politics. Do you identify with that? I thought | :55:46. | :55:52. | |
that last young man to speak was brilliant in talking about Marine Le | :55:53. | :55:55. | |
Pen and because she got and connecting that possibly to | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
terrorism in France. I hope and pray that this will not happen in this | :56:00. | :56:04. | |
from Hallam University are a great from Hallam University are a great | :56:05. | :56:07. | |
credit to that university. They put credit to that university. They put | :56:08. | :56:10. | |
forward some excellent points and I agree with everything that was said. | :56:11. | :56:17. | |
I don't know whether you remember on Friday, Jeremy Corbyn made a speech | :56:18. | :56:20. | |
which appeared to link British foreign policy to terrorism. Was he | :56:21. | :56:24. | |
right to make that speech? I think we need to have a conversation, for | :56:25. | :56:29. | |
example, Libya today is the lawless land. I don't think we can associate | :56:30. | :56:35. | |
that to what happened. Going back to what the student said, let's not | :56:36. | :56:40. | |
forget in our darkest hour, the days that followed, the communities came | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
together. It was humbling for us to see. People were unified, not been | :56:45. | :56:54. | |
divided on race or ethnic lines. I should also point out hate crime has | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
started to go through the roof in the Greater Manchester area. There | :56:59. | :56:59. | |
are implications there and I think what really needs to happen, | :57:00. | :57:02. | |
particularly as the rest of this general election campaign goes on, | :57:03. | :57:05. | |
we don't actually have politicians who start using quite divisive, | :57:06. | :57:12. | |
rhetoric. It is the type of language use are in the Brexit period which | :57:13. | :57:16. | |
gives legitimacy to those division issues, but thankfully we have a | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
democracy which is rooted in diversity. Manchester is an absolute | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
good example for the rest of the country, these kind of issues and | :57:26. | :57:31. | |
atrocities will not divide us. We have seen a lurch to the far right | :57:32. | :57:38. | |
across Europe, it could be said duty fears about terrorism. If the | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
Government doesn't tackle the spread properly, do you fear is similar | :57:43. | :57:47. | |
thing to happen in this country? Extremism of right or left, wherever | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
it is based, arguments about religion or whatever else is | :57:53. | :57:54. | |
unacceptable and in democracies where we have as much freedom for | :57:55. | :57:57. | |
people, particularly for those young people as they grew up, we need to | :57:58. | :58:02. | |
maintain that freedom and it's always a difficult balance to | :58:03. | :58:06. | |
maintain, but you cannot do that, you cannot do that unless you | :58:07. | :58:09. | |
actually take action against those that advocate violence from whatever | :58:10. | :58:14. | |
political position they take. Incidentally, just on Libya, I would | :58:15. | :58:18. | |
just say this, Libya under the dictator Gaddafi was a major | :58:19. | :58:24. | |
exporter of terrorism, organising terrorism, long before he was | :58:25. | :58:28. | |
removed. That was partly what the regime was involved in, everyone | :58:29. | :58:33. | |
knows that. That was a different type of terrorism. Whatever it is, | :58:34. | :58:37. | |
extremism is dangerous but we need to maintain freedom of speech. We | :58:38. | :58:41. | |
just have to be careful that it does not end up with young people being | :58:42. | :58:47. | |
radicalised, young people then turning into violence, because the | :58:48. | :58:51. | |
very thing they want to argue for, freedom and democracy, is then under | :58:52. | :58:54. | |
threat. That is something which politicians have got to grapple | :58:55. | :58:59. | |
with. Can I ask you about Jeremy Corbyn's speech on Friday where he | :59:00. | :59:03. | |
linked British foreign policy to the causes of terrorism? Was he right? I | :59:04. | :59:08. | |
think that's completely wrong. Everyone has got it wrong, because | :59:09. | :59:13. | |
the Prime Minister portrayed it as that, what you are saying. He didn't | :59:14. | :59:18. | |
say that, he didn't try to see that he was excusing the terrorist act | :59:19. | :59:24. | |
last Monday. He wasn't excusing it in any way whatsoever. I know Jeremy | :59:25. | :59:28. | |
well enough to know that it wouldn't be his view, he would never see | :59:29. | :59:32. | |
that. What he was saying was that there is certain parts of the world | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
that are completely lawless and one of them is Libya. And what happened | :59:37. | :59:42. | |
last Monday really did come from Libya, where there is a lack of law, | :59:43. | :59:48. | |
a lack of Government. It is a very difficult country, a very different | :59:49. | :59:52. | |
country, perhaps it was better when Gaddafi was there, I am not sure. It | :59:53. | :59:59. | |
is a major exporter of terrorism for many years under Gaddafi, we have to | :00:00. | :00:03. | |
be part of the world scene, we have to intervene and take our | :00:04. | :00:06. | |
responsible party maintain democracy and freedom. If the country just | :00:07. | :00:11. | |
simply blames whatever is going on right now with historic events and | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
the way that I suspect some political leaders have been doing | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
recently, I think the big mistake. Very briefly, how is this going to | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
affect the election campaign know, do you believe? I don't think it | :00:25. | :00:27. | |
will affect the outcome of the election campaign. We have got | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
principally two main parties here, the Conservatives and Labour, and I | :00:33. | :00:36. | |
expect them to be very responsible and listen to the rest of this | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
campaign so it doesn't take an ugly turn. We have to leave it there, | :00:41. | :00:42. | |
thank you for your thoughts today. Before we go back to London, | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
we'll remember a week when people across Yorkshire and Lincolnshire | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
fell silent to remember Now, after the Manchester attack, | :00:49. | :02:17. | |
will the final week of election campaigning different in tone from | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
what came before? My panel are here. Tim Marshall, it will be very front | :02:21. | :02:28. | |
of Centre for the next few days. Is that a good thing for the election | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
if it is going to be framed to who do you feel more safe with? It is | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
inevitable but I think it will only be part of the election. As I said | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
before the opt out, for many voters this is also about economics, | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
unemployment. It is not all about Brexit, nor is it only about | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
security. What it will do, I hope, is get the tone of the debate right. | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
Although I have already seen the tone being lowered. I wasn't | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
impressed with Mr Corbyn's speech last week blaming it on a foreign | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
policy, which is a wafer thin analysis of what is going on. | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
Inappropriate timing too soon? No, I think the argument is utter | :03:15. | :03:22. | |
nonsense. I don't want to attack just one side. The Conservative | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
party, I've forgotten which minister has already said that we would be | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
safer under a Tory Prime Minister, it has got nothing to do with Labour | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
or Tory government, the next Islamic attack. It is to do with jihadist | :03:36. | :03:45. | |
ideology, not party policies. You raise an important issue about tone. | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
It also points to a broader argument, one we were having | :03:50. | :03:52. | |
earlier, has politics been two courses with this issue of | :03:53. | :03:59. | |
extremism? Has the conversation about it tiptoed around some of the | :04:00. | :04:05. | |
sensitive issues? And by the media. You highlight the problem of this | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
being part of the election campaign by saying, has politics been too | :04:10. | :04:17. | |
cautious? Who do you mean by politics? And in an election | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
campaign there is a duty to be a divide, and adamant about values, | :04:22. | :04:28. | |
policies etc. Security is an issue that transcends those political | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
divides. So I think it is deeply unhealthy. It is nobody's fault a | :04:33. | :04:39. | |
tragedy occurred. But if you ask me does it help or enhance an election | :04:40. | :04:46. | |
debate? Emphatically not. A tragic event brings politics, as you call | :04:47. | :04:53. | |
it, together. Security is an issue that is complex and doesn't divide | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
neatly. Elections are political battles, by definition. So I think | :04:58. | :05:04. | |
the coming together of this, a tragedy occurred anyway, but it is | :05:05. | :05:11. | |
an unfortunate context. Do you agree or do you think this is a time to | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
talk about these issues? Is it a time to review the level of | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
argument? This is a political debate. I personally think the | :05:22. | :05:24. | |
politicians should have been out and about on Wednesday. There is no | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
wrong time to get it right. We mustn't let the terrorists affect | :05:30. | :05:35. | |
our way of life. But they have when we disrupt the election campaign. It | :05:36. | :05:42. | |
may be party political. But for a lot of voters, including me, I want | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
to hear from party leaders. What do you plan to do about this? Right | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
now, I've not heard anything that suggests any of these parties have | :05:54. | :05:56. | |
got to grips with the real problem, which is that we are not actually | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
tackling the problem in our midst. Douglas Murray touched on it | :06:02. | :06:03. | |
earlier. We have not even come to grips with the scale of the problem. | :06:04. | :06:11. | |
Does Labour have a grip -- Power Point in terms of terrorist | :06:12. | :06:18. | |
legislation? It is complicated. And not all of it has worked or is used | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
enough by government? It is another example where this doesn't work in | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
an election debate because David Davis has opposed a lot of this | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
terrorism legislation. He is now heading Brexit. There is a civil | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
liberties argument which I personally have doubts about. Again, | :06:36. | :06:42. | |
it brings people together from the major parties. And Corbyn didn't | :06:43. | :06:49. | |
actually say it was the cause of terrorism, British foreign policy, | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
but it helped to facilitate terrorism, which is a different | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
argument. Again, that would be supported by some Tories as well. | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
That is why it is difficult in an election campaign for this issue to | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
dominate. The front page of the Sunday Times talks about a campaign | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
relaunch, which may not, grow as a great surprise following the social | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
care fiasco. Do we know what that will entail? It sounds like Boris | :07:14. | :07:20. | |
Johnson will play a role. The whole point is it was all about Theresa | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
May and it turns out that is not quite good enough. The more we have | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
seen of Theresa May, the less impressive she has looked. Certainly | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
the Andrew Neil interview just repeating the same thing again and | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
again. Voters don't like that. They like people who are honest and | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
actually engage with them. When we see beat interviews in the next few | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
days, I think it will be interesting to see if she changes tack and tries | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
to engage with what people are asking. If it is back to leadership | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
and Brexit, and the economy, will that be more comfortable ground? I | :07:56. | :08:03. | |
think so. I understand framing it in terms of Brexit. But she has got to | :08:04. | :08:10. | |
broaden it out. I think that is why she is broadening it out. I don't | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
think the tragic events will absolutely dominate. That would be a | :08:15. | :08:22. | |
small victory for terrorism. This is a country of 65 million people with | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
an awful lot of issues. We have 65 million votes, well, 65 million | :08:27. | :08:33. | |
people with opinions in two weeks. It is quite a long campaign. There | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
is still time to go. What do you think Labour will be focusing on | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
from now on? I would imagine they will look very closely at where they | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
are well ahead in the opinion polls and focus on that relentlessly. | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
Public services, NHS etc. And try to get it off as soon as possible from | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
security and fees is used which, on one level at least, appear to be a | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
gift to the Conservatives. I assume that is what they are going to do. | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
But this is a very unpredictable campaign where nothing has gone | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
according to plan. Let's look ahead. On Wednesday evening we have got an | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
election debate. It is in Cambridge. Leaders of some of the parties. | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
Amber Rudd will be representing the Conservatives. We don't know yet who | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
will represent Labour. Today we have had Amber Road and Diane Abbott | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
against each other on Andrew Marr. Let's have a look. I think there is | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
something to be said for a Home Secretary who has actually worked in | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
the Home Office. I work in the home office for nearly three years as a | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
graduate trainee. This government has always felt that urgency. That | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
is why we have been putting in additional money. It is significant | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
that the commission for extremism in the manifesto was put in before | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
Manchester. We need to do more. You voted against prescribing those | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
groups. Because there were groups on that list I deemed to be dissidents | :10:05. | :10:07. | |
rather than terrorist organisations. We are making good progress with the | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
companies who put in place encryption. We will continue to | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
build on that. It was 34 years ago. I had a rather splendid Afro at the | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
time. I don't have the same hairstyle. And I don't have the same | :10:23. | :10:28. | |
views. It is 34 years on. The hairstyle has gone. Some of the | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
views have gone. So you no longer, you regret what you said about the | :10:33. | :10:39. | |
IRA? The hairstyle has gone, the views have gone. I would say to | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
Diane Abbott that I have changed my hairstyle are few times in 34 years | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
but I have not changed my view of how we keep the British public safe. | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
Let's get away from hairstyle sides talk about the prospect of the two | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
of them taking part in the election debate. Would you like to see that? | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
On one level I would like to see it and another the level I would like | :11:04. | :11:09. | |
to see an intelligent debate. I'm glad I never had an Afro or | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
supported the IRA. Whenever Diane Abbott steps out in a TV studio or a | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
radio studio, Labour haemorrhage votes. She cannot say things like my | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
regret supporting this or that legislation. She is an absolute | :11:25. | :11:31. | |
disaster. If Labour put her up, they are beyond mad. Who do you think | :11:32. | :11:42. | |
Labour should put up? By the way, I did have an Afro! I based my whole | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
log on Kevin Keegan and it was good. That is the wrong question. I will | :11:48. | :11:54. | |
explain why. The Labour campaign, it seems to me there were only five or | :11:55. | :12:04. | |
six people put up. That is the fault of others who refused to take part. | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
It also shows the degree to which the current leadership can only rely | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
on five or six people. I would imagine we are talking about a pool | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
of five or six people. As for my judgment as to who the best public | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
performer is in that pool, it would be by some margin John McDonnell, | :12:22. | :12:24. | |
who is a very good interviewee and performer. I think he is a very good | :12:25. | :12:33. | |
performer. It would come back to the economy at some point, presumably. | :12:34. | :12:41. | |
But then it comes back to the IRA. I don't think the debate will be very | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
illuminating. I think if Amber Rudd is there, Diane Abbott should be | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
there. I think the leaders should be debating. Some people say it is | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
froth. I think the leader -- the electorate gets a sense of the | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
leaders. On haircuts, I would like to thank both of them are talking | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
about the haircuts. I am looking forward to tomorrow's papers and the | :13:04. | :13:06. | |
theme that will run through the week. Let's not finish on the hair. | :13:07. | :13:13. | |
Thank you very much for being our guests. That is it for today. Thank | :13:14. | :13:21. | |
the panel for Jonny May. Andrew Neil will be back next weekend. And I | :13:22. | :13:27. | |
will be back on BBC Two on Tuesday. That is at midday with more daily | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
politics. In the meantime, have a very lovely bank holiday. From all | :13:32. | :13:33. | |
of us here, bye-bye. As voters prepare to go to the polls | :13:34. | :14:08. | |
to choose who represents them | :14:09. | :14:12. |