20/11/2016 Sunday Politics


20/11/2016

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 20/11/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:38.:00:41.

Theresa May says she'll deliver on Brexit but does that mean leaving

:00:42.:00:44.

the EU's Single Market and the Customs Union?

:00:45.:00:49.

Tory MPs campaign for a commitment from the Prime

:00:50.:00:51.

The Chancellor pledges just over a billion pounds worth of spending

:00:52.:01:04.

on Britain's roads but is that it or will there be

:01:05.:01:10.

Their last leader was just 18 days in the job.

:01:11.:01:15.

Now the second UKIP leadership election this year

:01:16.:01:17.

So who can restore order to this fractious party?

:01:18.:01:20.

in London: Is the battle for Richmond Park based on the skies? Or

:01:21.:01:30.

is it about a bigger conflict in Europe?

:01:31.:01:39.

And with me - as always - and, no, these three aren't doing

:01:40.:01:42.

the Mannequin challenge - it's our dynamic, demonstrative,

:01:43.:01:46.

dazzling political panel - Helen Lewis, Isabel Oakeshott

:01:47.:01:48.

and Tom Newton Dunn they'll also be tweeting throughout the programme.

:01:49.:01:52.

First this morning - Theresa May has said

:01:53.:01:57.

"Brexit means Brexit" - but can the Prime Minister -

:01:58.:02:00.

who was on the Remain side of argument during the referendum

:02:01.:02:02.

Well, Leave-supporting Tory MPs are re-launching

:02:03.:02:10.

the "European Research Group" this morning to keep Mrs May's feet

:02:11.:02:18.

Are you worried that you cannot trust Theresa May until payment to

:02:19.:02:27.

deliver full Brexit was Magellan like I totally trust Theresa May,

:02:28.:02:33.

100% behind her. She has displayed a massive amount of commitment to

:02:34.:02:37.

making a success of Brexit for the country.

:02:38.:02:40.

We don't know that yet, because nothing has happened. Why, then,

:02:41.:02:44.

have you formed a pressure group? We were fed up with the negativity

:02:45.:02:51.

coming out around Brexit. I feel positive about the opportunities we

:02:52.:02:55.

face, and we are a group to provide suggestions. Who do you have in mind

:02:56.:02:58.

when you talk about negativity - the Chancellor? No, from the Lib Dems,

:02:59.:03:05.

for example, from Labour MPs. This is a pressure group for leaving

:03:06.:03:12.

membership of the single market and customs union, correct? That is what

:03:13.:03:17.

we are proposing. It has a purpose other than just to combat

:03:18.:03:20.

negativity. When it comes to membership of the single market and

:03:21.:03:25.

the customs union, can you tell us what Government policy is towards

:03:26.:03:29.

both or either? Rightly, the Government hasn't made the position

:03:30.:03:33.

clear, and I think that is the right approach, because we don't want to

:03:34.:03:38.

review our negotiating hand. What we're saying... I'm not asking what

:03:39.:03:45.

you are saying. Can you tell us what Government policy is towards

:03:46.:03:47.

membership of these institutions? The Government wants to make sure

:03:48.:03:52.

British businesses have the right to trade with EU partners, to forge new

:03:53.:03:56.

trade deals with the rest of the world. We hope to Reza may speak at

:03:57.:04:04.

Mansion house this week. -- we had Theresa May speak at Mansion house

:04:05.:04:07.

this week. She has been clear, saying it was not a binary choice.

:04:08.:04:13.

And she's right. Let's run that tape, because I want to pick up on

:04:14.:04:16.

what she did say. This is what she had to say about the customs union

:04:17.:04:21.

at Prime Minister's Question Time. On the whole question of the customs

:04:22.:04:26.

union, trading relationships that we have with the European Union and

:04:27.:04:29.

other parts of the world once we have left the European Union, we are

:04:30.:04:34.

preparing carefully for the formal negotiations. We are preparing

:04:35.:04:44.

carefully for the formal negotiations. We want to ensure we

:04:45.:04:47.

have the best possible trading deal with the EU once we have left. Do

:04:48.:04:53.

you know what she means when she says being in the customs union is

:04:54.:04:57.

not a binary choice? I think she's right when she says that. At the

:04:58.:05:01.

moment, and you know this, as long as we are in the customs union, we

:05:02.:05:05.

cannot set our own tariffs or rules, cannot have a free trade agreement

:05:06.:05:09.

with the US or China. We need to leave a customs union to do that.

:05:10.:05:15.

Binary means either you are in or you are out, self which is it? We

:05:16.:05:19.

still want to trade with the EU, and I think we can have a free trade

:05:20.:05:23.

agreement with the EU. That is a separate matter, and it has to do

:05:24.:05:30.

with the single market. What about the customs union? We need to leave

:05:31.:05:34.

the customs union. We do it and properly. That is how to get the

:05:35.:05:39.

most out of this opportunity. Summit is a binary choice? The Prime

:05:40.:05:42.

Minister is right when she says it's not a binary choice. Both can't be

:05:43.:05:47.

right. We can leave the customs union, get their benefits, and have

:05:48.:05:55.

a free trade agreement with zero tariffs with the EU. So it is a

:05:56.:06:00.

binary choice an either be stale really. Yellow like I am saying the

:06:01.:06:03.

Prime Minister is right when she says it is not a binary choice. -- I

:06:04.:06:10.

am saying the Prime Minister is right. We need clarity. Youth had

:06:11.:06:18.

said -- you have said it is a binary choice. We need to leave the

:06:19.:06:23.

constraints of the customs union. It pushes up prices. The EU is not

:06:24.:06:27.

securing the right trade deals, and if we want to make the most of it,

:06:28.:06:30.

we need to get out there and get some deals going. Do you accept that

:06:31.:06:35.

if we remain in the customs union, we cannot do our own free-trade

:06:36.:06:40.

deals? Yellow right 100%. That is why we have to leave. -- 100%. Do

:06:41.:06:56.

you accept that if we leave the customs union but stay with

:06:57.:07:00.

substantial access, I don't say membership, but substantial access

:07:01.:07:03.

to the single market, that goods going from this country to the

:07:04.:07:07.

single market because we're no longer in the union will be subject

:07:08.:07:12.

to complicated rules of origin regulations, which could cost

:07:13.:07:20.

business ?13 billion a year? I would like to see a free-trade agreement

:07:21.:07:24.

between the UK and the EU. Look at the Canadian deal. I give you that,

:07:25.:07:28.

but if we're not in the customs union, things that we bring in on

:07:29.:07:33.

our own tariffs once we've left, we can't just export again willy-nilly

:07:34.:07:38.

to the EU. They will demand to see rules of origin. Norway has to do

:07:39.:07:41.

that at the moment and it is highly complicated expensive. I think if we

:07:42.:07:47.

agree a particular arrangement as part of this agreement with the EU,

:07:48.:07:51.

we can reach an agreement on that which sets a lower standard, which

:07:52.:07:57.

sets a different level of tariffs, which protects some of our

:07:58.:08:01.

industries. Let's suppose we have pretty much free trade with the EU

:08:02.:08:06.

but we are out of the customs union, and let's suppose that the European

:08:07.:08:10.

Union has a 20% tariff on Japanese whisky and we decide to have a 0%

:08:11.:08:19.

tariff - what then happens to the whisky that comes into Britain and

:08:20.:08:23.

goes on to the EU? The EU will not let that in. That will be part of

:08:24.:08:28.

the negotiation. I think there is a huge benefit for external operators.

:08:29.:08:35.

Every bottle of Japanese whisky, they will have to work out the rules

:08:36.:08:39.

of origin. There have been studies that show there is a potential for

:08:40.:08:45.

50% increase in global product if we leave. We're losing the benefits of

:08:46.:08:50.

free trade. I understand, I am asking for your particular view.

:08:51.:08:51.

Thank you for that. Is it not surprising Mr Hannan could

:08:52.:09:00.

not bring himself to say we would leave the customs union? It is

:09:01.:09:05.

messy. The reason there is this new group of Tory MPs signing up to a

:09:06.:09:10.

campaign to make sure we get a genuine Brexit is because there is

:09:11.:09:16.

this vacuum. It is being filled with all sorts of briefing from the other

:09:17.:09:21.

side. There is a real risk in the minds of Brexit supporting MPs that

:09:22.:09:25.

the remaining side are going to try to hijack the process, not only

:09:26.:09:28.

through the Supreme Court action, which I think most Brexit MPs seem

:09:29.:09:34.

to accept the appeal will fail, but further down the line, through

:09:35.:09:40.

amendments to the great repeal bill. This is a pressure group to try to

:09:41.:09:43.

hold the Prime Minister to account. There is plenty of pressure on the

:09:44.:09:47.

Prime Minister effectively to stay in the single market and the customs

:09:48.:09:52.

union, and if you do both of these things, de facto, you have stayed in

:09:53.:09:58.

the EU. She is in a difficult position because there is no good

:09:59.:10:01.

faith assumption about what Theresa May wants because she was a

:10:02.:10:08.

Remainer. There is all this talk about a transitional arrangement,

:10:09.:10:11.

but she can't sell that as someone who voted to remain. The way Isabel

:10:12.:10:17.

has characterised it is interesting. There is a betrayal narrative.

:10:18.:10:21.

Everyone is looking to say that she has betrayed the true Brexit. Since

:10:22.:10:25.

the Government cannot give a clear indication of what it once in terms

:10:26.:10:31.

of the customs union, which sets external tariffs, or the single

:10:32.:10:35.

market, which is the free movement of people, capital, goods and

:10:36.:10:38.

services, others are filling this vacuum. Right. The reasons they

:10:39.:10:46.

can't do this are, first, they don't know if they can get it or not. We

:10:47.:10:49.

saw this with the renegotiation the last Prime Minister. What are they

:10:50.:10:56.

hoping to get? The world on a stick, to get cake and eat it. You go into

:10:57.:11:06.

a negotiation saying, let's see what we can get in total. Are they going

:11:07.:11:11.

to ask the membership of the single market? Yellow I think they will ask

:11:12.:11:14.

for a free trade agreement involving everything. You can demand what you

:11:15.:11:27.

want. The question is, do they stand a cat's chance in hell of getting

:11:28.:11:33.

it? They don't know. Welcome back. We will be back, believe me. It is

:11:34.:11:38.

150 day since we found out the UK had voted to leave the EU, but as we

:11:39.:11:44.

have heard, remain and leave campaigners continue to battle about

:11:45.:11:48.

what type of relationship we should have with the EU after exit.

:11:49.:11:56.

Leave campaigners say that leaving the EU

:11:57.:11:57.

also means quitting the

:11:58.:11:58.

Single Market, the internal European trading bloc that includes free

:11:59.:12:01.

movement of goods, services, capital and people.

:12:02.:12:03.

They point to evidence that leading Leave supporting

:12:04.:12:04.

politicians ruled out staying in the Single Market during

:12:05.:12:06.

Andrea Leadsom, for example, said it would almost

:12:07.:12:09.

certainly be the case that the UK would come out of the Single Market.

:12:10.:12:19.

When asked for a yes or no on whether the UK should stay

:12:20.:12:23.

"No, we should be outside the Single Market."

:12:24.:12:26.

And Boris Johnson agreed with his erstwhile ally, saying, "Michael

:12:27.:12:29.

Gove was absolutely right to say the UK

:12:30.:12:31.

They've released a video of clips of Leave campaigners speaking before

:12:32.:12:42.

the referendum apparently saying that the UK should stay in the

:12:43.:12:45.

Nigel Farage, for example, once said that on leaving

:12:46.:12:48.

the EU we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area

:12:49.:12:51.

Owen Paterson, the former Environment Secretary,

:12:52.:12:53.

once made the startling statement that only a madman would actually

:12:54.:13:00.

And Matthew Elliott, the Vote Leave chief, said

:13:01.:13:05.

that the Norwegian option would be initially attractive for some

:13:06.:13:08.

But do these quotes create an accurate picture of what

:13:09.:13:12.

To cast some light on where these quotes came from we're

:13:13.:13:19.

joined by James McGrory, director of Open Britain

:13:20.:13:21.

Welcome to the Sunday Politics. . Your video has statements from leave

:13:22.:13:35.

campaigners hinting they want to stay in the single market. How many

:13:36.:13:38.

were made during the referendum campaign? I don't know. Not one was

:13:39.:13:46.

made during the referendum campaign. Indeed, only two of the 12

:13:47.:13:51.

statements were recorded after Royal assent had been given to the

:13:52.:13:54.

referendum. Only one was made this year before the referendum.

:13:55.:13:59.

Throughout the campaign am a leave campaigners lauded the Norwegian

:14:00.:14:02.

model. Norway are in the single market but not in the EU. They went

:14:03.:14:09.

out of their way not to be pinned down on a specific trading

:14:10.:14:11.

arrangement they want to see in the future with Europe, when the

:14:12.:14:15.

Treasury model the different models it was the EEA or a free-trade

:14:16.:14:20.

agreement. I understand. Does it not undermine your case that none of the

:14:21.:14:24.

12 statements on your video were made during the campaign itself,

:14:25.:14:28.

when people were giving really serious thought to such matters? The

:14:29.:14:33.

Leave campaign weren't giving serious thought to such matters.

:14:34.:14:36.

They did not set out the future trading model they wanted to see.

:14:37.:14:42.

But you cannot produce a single video with somebody saying we should

:14:43.:14:46.

stay in the single market during the campaign. Daniel Hanna had talked

:14:47.:14:51.

about the Norwegian model as a future option. One comment from

:14:52.:14:56.

Nigel Farage dates back to 2009, when we didn't even know if we would

:14:57.:15:00.

have a referendum or not. Does it not stretch credibility to go back

:15:01.:15:04.

to the time when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister? The overall point

:15:05.:15:08.

stands. It is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of the options.

:15:09.:15:14.

Daniel Hannan, described as the intellectual godfather of the Leave

:15:15.:15:19.

movement is saying that no one is talking about threatening our place

:15:20.:15:22.

in the signal market. I think it's legitimate to point out the Leave

:15:23.:15:26.

campaign never came forward with a credible argument. We have

:15:27.:15:30.

highlighted some of the quotes you picked out from leave campaigners

:15:31.:15:33.

over time. Do you think you have fully encapsulated their arguments

:15:34.:15:40.

accurately? I don't think in a 92nd video you can talk about the full

:15:41.:15:46.

thing. -- a 90-2nd video. Some of them want to seek a free-trade

:15:47.:15:50.

agreement, some to default on to World Trade Organisation tariffs.

:15:51.:15:58.

There is a range of opinion in the Leave campaign. Let's listen to the

:15:59.:16:00.

clip you used on Owen Paterson first.

:16:01.:16:01.

Only a madman would actually leave the market.

:16:02.:16:08.

Only a madman would actually leave the market.

:16:09.:16:13.

It's not the EU which is

:16:14.:16:14.

a political organisation delivering the prosperity and buying our goods.

:16:15.:16:17.

It's the market, it's the members of the market and we'll carry on

:16:18.:16:21.

I mean, are we really suggesting that the

:16:22.:16:24.

economy in the world is not going to come to come

:16:25.:16:26.

to a satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU?

:16:27.:16:28.

Are we going to be like Sudan and North

:16:29.:16:30.

It is ludicrous this idea that we are going to leap off a

:16:31.:16:34.

What he said when he said only a madman would leave Europe, was that

:16:35.:16:48.

we would continue to trade, we would continue to have access. Any country

:16:49.:16:52.

in the world can have access. What the Leave campaign suggested is our

:16:53.:16:55.

trade would continue uninterrupted, they are still at it today, David

:16:56.:16:59.

Davis used the phrase, uninterrupted, from the dispatch box

:17:00.:17:03.

recently. You misrepresented him by saying only a madman would leave the

:17:04.:17:07.

Single Market and stopped it there, because he goes onto say that of

:17:08.:17:11.

course we want Leave in the sense of continuing to have access. I don't

:17:12.:17:12.

think he was about axis, he is talking

:17:13.:17:31.

about membership. He doesn't use the word membership at all. He talks

:17:32.:17:34.

about we are going to carry on trading with them, we will not leap

:17:35.:17:36.

off, we will carry on trading. Anybody can trade with the EU, it's

:17:37.:17:39.

the terms on which you trade that is important and leave campaigners and

:17:40.:17:41.

Patterson is an example of this, saying we can trade as we do now,

:17:42.:17:44.

the government saying we can trade without bureaucratic impediments and

:17:45.:17:46.

tariff free. The viewers will make up their mind. Let's listen to the

:17:47.:17:49.

views of Matthew Elliott, the Chief Executive of Vote Leave.

:17:50.:17:50.

When it comes to the Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that

:17:51.:17:53.

it might be initially attractive for some business people.

:17:54.:17:55.

So you then cut him off there but this is what he went on to say in

:17:56.:17:59.

the same clip, let's listen to that. When it comes to the Norwegian

:18:00.:18:03.

option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive

:18:04.:18:06.

for some business people. But then again for voters

:18:07.:18:08.

who are increasingly concerned about migration in the EU,

:18:09.:18:11.

they will be very concerned that it allows free movement

:18:12.:18:14.

of people to continue. Again, you have misrepresented him.

:18:15.:18:26.

He said the Norwegian model has attractions but there are real

:18:27.:18:29.

problems if it involves free movement of people, which it does.

:18:30.:18:33.

But you cut that bit out. I challenge anyone to represent them

:18:34.:18:37.

accurately because they took such a range of opinions. I don't know what

:18:38.:18:40.

we are supposed to do. You are misrepresenting them. He is saying

:18:41.:18:44.

the Norwegian option is attractive to business, I understand why. It

:18:45.:18:48.

might not be attractive for voters. But then he said if it allowed free

:18:49.:18:55.

movement of people it could be an issue. You took that out. You are

:18:56.:19:00.

saying this is a definitive position. I'm suggesting you are

:19:01.:19:02.

distorting it. This is what you had Mr Farage say.

:19:03.:19:05.

On D+1 we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area

:19:06.:19:07.

This is what he then went on to say in that same clip that you didn't

:19:08.:19:15.

run. There is absolutely

:19:16.:19:16.

nothing to fear in terms of trade from leaving

:19:17.:19:18.

the on D+1 we'll find ourselves part

:19:19.:19:19.

of the European Economic Area and we should use our

:19:20.:19:23.

membership of the EEA as a holding position from which

:19:24.:19:32.

we can negotiate as the European Union's biggest export

:19:33.:19:36.

market in the world, as good a deal, my goodness me,

:19:37.:19:38.

if Switzerland can have one we So there again, he says not that we

:19:39.:19:48.

should stay in the Single Market as a member, but that we stay in the EA

:19:49.:19:53.

as a transition until we negotiate something. -- EEA. This whole clip

:19:54.:20:03.

is online, how would you get away with this distortion? It is not a

:20:04.:20:07.

distortion, the whole point is to point out they do not have a

:20:08.:20:10.

definitive position, he is arguing for membership of the Single Market,

:20:11.:20:13.

for a transitional period. For the transition. How long does that go

:20:14.:20:18.

on, what does he want to then achieve? Not very quickly but he

:20:19.:20:21.

does not say we should stay members of the Single Market and you didn't

:20:22.:20:25.

let people see what he went on to say, you gave the impression he

:20:26.:20:28.

wanted to stay in the one it. It would not be a video then, it would

:20:29.:20:32.

be a seven-week long lecture. They took so many positions, and the idea

:20:33.:20:36.

now that they were clear with people that we should definitely leave the

:20:37.:20:39.

Single Market I think is fictitious. You are trying to make out they all

:20:40.:20:43.

had one position which was to remain members of the one it. You see the

:20:44.:20:48.

full clips that is not what they are saying. We are trying to point out

:20:49.:20:52.

there is no mandate to leave the Single Market. The idea the Leave

:20:53.:20:55.

campaign spoke with unanimity and clarity of purpose and throughout

:20:56.:20:59.

the whole campaign said we will definitely leave the Single Market

:21:00.:21:03.

is not true. That is the whole point of the media. We showed in the

:21:04.:21:07.

montage in the video just before we came on, we said that then Prime

:21:08.:21:11.

Minister, the then Chancellor, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, being

:21:12.:21:14.

categorical that if you vote to leave the EU, you vote to leave

:21:15.:21:17.

membership of the Single Market. What bit of that didn't you

:21:18.:21:21.

understand? Under duress they occasionally said they wanted to

:21:22.:21:24.

leave. Some of them wanted to leave the Single Market. All of the other

:21:25.:21:30.

promises they made, whether ?350 million for the NHS, whether a VAT

:21:31.:21:35.

cut on fuel, points-based system. You do not have a single quote of

:21:36.:21:38.

any of these members saying they want to be a member. Daniel Hannan

:21:39.:21:42.

has said consistently that Norway are a part of the Single Market. You

:21:43.:21:47.

spend the referendum campaign criticising for Rim misrepresenting

:21:48.:21:49.

and misrepresenting and lying and many thought they did. Having seen

:21:50.:21:52.

this many will conclude that you are the biggest liars. I think it is

:21:53.:21:56.

perfectly reasonable to point out that the Leave campaign did not have

:21:57.:21:59.

a clear position on our future trading relationship with Europe.

:22:00.:22:03.

That is all this video does. It doesn't say we definitely have to

:22:04.:22:06.

stay in the Single Market, it just says they do have a mandate to drag

:22:07.:22:11.

us out of our biggest trading partner.

:22:12.:22:13.

Now people have seen the full quotes in context our viewers will make up

:22:14.:22:15.

their mind. Thank you. Now - voting closes next week

:22:16.:22:17.

in the the Ukip leadership contest. The second Ukip leadership contest

:22:18.:22:20.

this year after the party's first female leader - Diane James -

:22:21.:22:22.

stood down from the role Since then the party's lurched from

:22:23.:22:25.

farce to fiasco. It's a world gripped by uncertainty,

:22:26.:22:28.

split into factions. Yes, 2, because they're

:22:29.:22:44.

having their second Watch as the alpha male,

:22:45.:22:54.

the Ukip leader at Nigel Watch as the alpha male,

:22:55.:23:01.

the Ukip leader Nigel Farage, hands power to the new alpha

:23:02.:23:03.

female Diane James. The European Parliament

:23:04.:23:06.

in Strasbourg, October. Another leading light and possible

:23:07.:23:20.

future leader, the MEP Steven Wolfe,

:23:21.:23:23.

has been laid low after an alleged tussle with a colleague

:23:24.:23:25.

during a meeting. A few days later he is

:23:26.:23:28.

out of hospital and I will be withdrawing my

:23:29.:23:30.

application to become I'm actually withdrawing

:23:31.:23:34.

myself from Ukip. You're resigning from the party?

:23:35.:23:37.

I'm resigning with immediate effect. And this week a leaked document

:23:38.:23:43.

suggested the party improperly spent EU funds on political

:23:44.:23:47.

campaigning in the UK. Another headache for whoever takes

:23:48.:23:52.

over the leadership of the pack. One contender is Suzanne Evans,

:23:53.:23:58.

a former Tory councillor and was briefly suspended for

:23:59.:24:01.

disloyalty. Also standing, Paul Nuttall,

:24:02.:24:10.

an MEP from Liverpool who has been by Farage's side

:24:11.:24:13.

as his deputy for six years. There's another big beast

:24:14.:24:19.

in the Ukip leadership contest, and I'm told

:24:20.:24:21.

that today he can be spotted He's John Rees-Evans,

:24:22.:24:24.

a businessman and adventurer who is offering members the chance

:24:25.:24:29.

to propose policies via a website We've got really dedicated

:24:30.:24:32.

passionate supporters who feel like they're not really

:24:33.:24:46.

being listened to and are not even Typically what happens

:24:47.:24:49.

is they just basically sit there until six months before

:24:50.:24:52.

a General Election when they are contacted and asked to go out

:24:53.:24:54.

and leaflet and canvas. Even at branch level people feel

:24:55.:24:57.

there is not an adequate flow of communication

:24:58.:24:59.

up-and-down the party. Are you not going to take part in

:25:00.:25:01.

any hustings? He left a hustings saying

:25:02.:25:10.

the contest was an establishment coronation and has

:25:11.:25:13.

made colourful comments in the past. He's in favour of the death penalty

:25:14.:25:16.

for crimes like paedophilia. I think there is a clear

:25:17.:25:18.

will amongst the offences should be dealt with

:25:19.:25:20.

decisively. But again, on an issue like that,

:25:21.:25:24.

that is something that Our members are not

:25:25.:25:27.

going to agree with me on everything and I don't believe that

:25:28.:25:32.

I would have any authority to have the say and determine

:25:33.:25:35.

the future What method would you use

:25:36.:25:37.

for the death penalty? Again, that is something that could

:25:38.:25:40.

be determined by suggestions made So you'd have like an online

:25:41.:25:42.

poll about whether you use the electric chair,

:25:43.:25:47.

or lethal injection? For example, arguments would be made

:25:48.:25:53.

in favour of This is such a small aspect

:25:54.:25:55.

of what I'm standing for. Essentially, in mainstream media

:25:56.:25:59.

they try to by focusing on pretty irrelevant

:26:00.:26:01.

details. This is one vote that

:26:02.:26:07.

the membership would have. What I'm actually trying to do

:26:08.:26:09.

in this party is to revolutionise the democratic

:26:10.:26:13.

process in the UK, and that's really what your viewers should

:26:14.:26:16.

be concentrating on. With him at the helm he reckons Ukip

:26:17.:26:20.

would win at Meanwhile, in New York,

:26:21.:26:22.

on a visit to Trump Tower, Nigel Farage admired the plumage

:26:23.:26:30.

of the President-elect, a man he has described as

:26:31.:26:39.

a silverback gorilla, a friendship that's been condemned by some

:26:40.:26:41.

in this leadership contest. There are also elections

:26:42.:26:44.

to the party's National Executive Committee, a body

:26:45.:26:46.

that's been roundly criticised by And we're joined now by two

:26:47.:26:49.

of the candidates in the Ukip leadership election -

:26:50.:27:04.

Suzanne Evans and Paul Nuttall. We are going to kick off by giving

:27:05.:27:14.

each of them 30 seconds to lay out their case as to why they would be

:27:15.:27:17.

the less leader starting with Suzanne Evans.

:27:18.:27:20.

Ukip is at its best when it is scaring the political establishment,

:27:21.:27:23.

forcing it to address those problems it would rather ignore. But it

:27:24.:27:27.

really change people's lives for the better and fast, we need to win

:27:28.:27:31.

seats and elections right across the country. To win at the ballot box we

:27:32.:27:35.

need to attract more women, more ethnic

:27:36.:27:55.

minorities, and more of those Labour voters who no longer recognise their

:27:56.:27:57.

party. I know how to do that. Ukip under my

:27:58.:28:00.

leadership will be the same page about it, common-sense, radical

:28:01.:28:03.

party it has always been, just even more successful. Thank you, Suzanne

:28:04.:28:04.

Evans, Paul Nuttall. I'm standing on a platform of unity and experience.

:28:05.:28:07.

I believe the party must come together if it is to survive and

:28:08.:28:10.

prosper. I believe I'm the best candidate to ensure that happens, I

:28:11.:28:12.

am not part of any faction in the party, and beyond that I have done

:28:13.:28:15.

every single job within the party, whether that is as head of policy,

:28:16.:28:17.

whether that is Party Chairman, deputy leader for Nigel for the past

:28:18.:28:20.

six years. I believe Ukip has great opportunities in Labour

:28:21.:28:22.

constituencies where we can move in and become the Patriot invoice of

:28:23.:28:26.

working people, and beyond that we have to ensure the government's feet

:28:27.:28:29.

are held to the fire on Brexit and we get real Brexit, not a

:28:30.:28:36.

mealy-mouthed version. How will you get a grip on this? People have to

:28:37.:28:40.

realise that the cause is bigger than any personality, we have to get

:28:41.:28:44.

together in a room and sort out not just a spokespeople role but roles

:28:45.:28:47.

within the organisation, Party Chairman, party secretary, and

:28:48.:28:52.

whatnot. But as I say, Ukip must unite, we are on 13% in the opinion

:28:53.:28:56.

polls, the future is bright, there are open goals but Ukip must be on

:28:57.:29:01.

the pitch to score them. He says he's the only one that can get a

:29:02.:29:04.

grip on this party. I disagree, I have a huge amount of experience in

:29:05.:29:08.

the party as well and also a background that I think means I can

:29:09.:29:11.

help bring people together. I have always said nothing breeds unity

:29:12.:29:21.

faster than success and under my leadership we will be successful.

:29:22.:29:24.

There is concern about the future of our National Executive Committee

:29:25.:29:26.

going forward. Mr Farage called it the lowest grade of people I have

:29:27.:29:29.

ever met, do you agree? I think he must have been having a bad day, I

:29:30.:29:32.

think we need to make it more accountable to the membership, more

:29:33.:29:35.

open, more democratic. What would you do with the National Executive

:29:36.:29:40.

Committee? I have been calling for the National Executive Committee to

:29:41.:29:43.

be elected reasonably since 2010 giving the members better

:29:44.:29:46.

communication lines and make it far more transparent. Would you have a

:29:47.:29:50.

clear out of the office? I wouldn't, I think the chairman of the party,

:29:51.:29:55.

Paul Upton, the interim chairman, is doing a good job and the only person

:29:56.:29:59.

who has come out of the summer with his reputation enhanced. Let me show

:30:00.:30:02.

you a picture we have all seen of your current leader, Mr Farage, with

:30:03.:30:09.

President-elect Donald Trump. Paul Nuttall, you criticise Mr Farage's

:30:10.:30:12.

decision to appear at rallies during the American election and called Mr

:30:13.:30:17.

Trump appalling. Do you stick by that? I wouldn't have voted for him.

:30:18.:30:22.

I made it clear. Do you still think he's appalling now that he is

:30:23.:30:25.

President-elect? Some of the things he said were appalling during the

:30:26.:30:31.

campaign that he said. But he would be good for Britain, trade,

:30:32.:30:34.

pro-Brexit and he is an Anglo file and the first thing he did was put

:30:35.:30:37.

the bust of Winston Churchill back in the Oval Office. You, Suzanne

:30:38.:30:43.

Evans, called Mr Trump one of the weakest candidates the US has had. I

:30:44.:30:47.

said the same about Hillary Clinton. They cannot both be the weakest. The

:30:48.:30:51.

better candidate on either side would have beaten the other, that is

:30:52.:30:55.

quite clear. Do you stand by that, or are you glad that your leader Mr

:30:56.:31:00.

Farage has strong ties to him? I am, why wouldn't I be? For Ukip to have

:31:01.:31:05.

that direct connection, it can be only good for a party. Were you not

:31:06.:31:09.

out of step and Mr Farage is in step because it looks like your vote is

:31:10.:31:12.

according to polling I have seemed like Mr Trump and his policies? Let

:31:13.:31:18.

me finish. If I am the leader of Ukip I will not be involving myself

:31:19.:31:21.

in foreign elections, I will because in trading here in this country

:31:22.:31:25.

ensuring we get Ukip people elected to council chambers and get seats in

:31:26.:31:27.

2020. The other thing your leader has in

:31:28.:31:37.

common with Mr Trump is that he rather admires Vladimir Putin. Do

:31:38.:31:43.

you? I don't. If you look at Putin's record, he has invaded Ukraine and

:31:44.:31:50.

Georgia. I am absolutely not a fan. I think that Vladimir Putin is

:31:51.:31:54.

pretty much a nasty man, but beyond that, I believe that in the Middle

:31:55.:31:59.

East, he is generally getting it right in many areas. We need to

:32:00.:32:06.

bring the conflict... Bombing civilians? We need to bring the

:32:07.:32:10.

conflict to an end as fast as possible. The British and American

:32:11.:32:14.

line before Donald Trump is to support rebels, including one is

:32:15.:32:21.

affiliated to Al-Qaeda, to the Taliban. We need to clear these

:32:22.:32:25.

people out and ensure that Syria becomes stable. This controversial

:32:26.:32:33.

breaking point poster from during the referendum campaign. Mr Farage

:32:34.:32:36.

unveiled it, there he is standing in front of it. You can bend it - do

:32:37.:32:41.

you still? Yes, I think it was the wrong poster at the wrong time. I

:32:42.:32:46.

was involved with the vote Leave campaign as well as Ukip's campaign,

:32:47.:32:50.

and I felt strongly that those concerned about immigration were

:32:51.:32:53.

already going to vote to leave because it was a fundamental truth

:32:54.:32:57.

that unless we left the European Union we couldn't control

:32:58.:32:59.

immigration. I thought it was about approaching those soft wavering

:33:00.:33:08.

voters who weren't sure. I don't think I said it was racist, but it

:33:09.:33:12.

was about sovereignty and trade and so forth. That was where we needed

:33:13.:33:16.

to go. I was concerned it might put off some of those wavering voters.

:33:17.:33:21.

People may well say, it was part of the winning campaign. It was Ukip

:33:22.:33:27.

shock and all, which is what you stand for and what makes you

:33:28.:33:34.

different. I said I would know how that I said I would not have gone

:33:35.:33:37.

for that person and I thought it was wrong to do it just a week out from

:33:38.:33:40.

the referendum. However, I believe it released legitimate concerns,

:33:41.:33:47.

with a deluge of people making their way from the Middle East and Africa

:33:48.:33:55.

into the European continent. Where is the low hanging fruit for you,

:33:56.:33:58.

particularly in England? Is it Labour or Conservative voters? I

:33:59.:34:03.

want to hang onto the Conservative voters we have got but I think the

:34:04.:34:09.

low hanging fruit is Labour. Jeremy Corbyn won't sing the national

:34:10.:34:13.

anthem, Emily Thornbury despises the English flag. Diane Abbott thinks

:34:14.:34:17.

anyone talking about immigration is racist. Not to mention John

:34:18.:34:21.

McDonnell's feelings about the IRA. Labour has ceased to be a party for

:34:22.:34:25.

working people and I think Ukip is absolutely going to be that party.

:34:26.:34:30.

It is clear, I absolutely concur with everything Suzanne has said. I

:34:31.:34:36.

first voiced this back in 2008 that I believe Ukip has a fantastic

:34:37.:34:40.

opportunity in working-class communities, and everyone laughed at

:34:41.:34:43.

me. It is clear now that we resonate with working people, and you have

:34:44.:34:46.

seen that in the Brexit result. Would you bring back the death

:34:47.:34:53.

penalty? It wouldn't be Ukip policy. Absolutely not. Would you give more

:34:54.:34:57.

money to the NHS and how would your fanatic? You like it is important to

:34:58.:35:01.

fund it adequately, and it hasn't been to date. We promised in our

:35:02.:35:11.

manifesto that we would give more money. Where does the money come

:35:12.:35:15.

from? It is about tackling health tourism. I think the NHS is being

:35:16.:35:20.

taken for a ride at the moment. That may be right, but where does the

:35:21.:35:26.

money come from? It is about scaling back management in the NHS, because

:35:27.:35:29.

that has burgeoned beyond control. They are spending far more money on

:35:30.:35:34.

management. Where would you save money? We need to look at HS two,

:35:35.:35:39.

foreign aid. Now we have Brexit and we will be saving on the membership

:35:40.:35:44.

fee. We need to cut back on management, as Suzanne says. It

:35:45.:35:47.

cannot be right that 51% of people who work for the NHS in England are

:35:48.:35:54.

not clinically qualified. The NHS needs money now - where would you

:35:55.:36:00.

get it? From HS two. That is capital spending spread over a long period.

:36:01.:36:06.

Where will you get the money now? OK, another one. We spent ?25

:36:07.:36:10.

million every day on foreign aid to countries who sometimes are richer

:36:11.:36:15.

than ourselves. Through the Barnett formula. You would take money away

:36:16.:36:19.

from Scotland? Yes, I think they get far too much. PG tips or Earl Grey?

:36:20.:36:35.

Colegrave. PG tips. Strictly come dancing or X Factor? Neither.

:36:36.:36:43.

Strictly. I would love to be on it one day. There you go. Thank you

:36:44.:36:48.

It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:36:49.:36:52.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:36:53.:36:55.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

:36:56.:59:57.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, never happened and will not happen

:59:58.:00:00.

in four years. It is subject we should spend more time on. Back to

:00:01.:00:01.

you. What will the Chancellor have to say

:00:02.:00:10.

in his first big economic statement? What impact will the forecasters say

:00:11.:00:14.

Brexit will have on the economy? And who will face the Front

:00:15.:00:17.

National's Marine Le Pen in Well, the Shadow Chancellor

:00:18.:00:20.

and the Chancellor have both been touring the television

:00:21.:00:34.

studios this morning. Let's be clear, a lot of this

:00:35.:00:36.

is going to be gimmicks and press As I've said, in the

:00:37.:00:42.

pipeline, we've only seen one in five delivered

:00:43.:00:46.

to construction, that's all. So a lot of this will be a repeat

:00:47.:00:49.

of what I'm not going to reveal

:00:50.:00:51.

what I'm going to say on We don't have unlimited

:00:52.:00:55.

capacity, as one might imagine from listening

:00:56.:01:00.

to John McDonnell, to borrow hundreds of billions of pounds more

:01:01.:01:03.

for discretionary spending. That simply doesn't

:01:04.:01:07.

exist if we're going to retain this country's hard-won

:01:08.:01:11.

credibility in the financial markets if we are going to remain

:01:12.:01:13.

an attractive place for business to We didn't learn very much, Helen,

:01:14.:01:30.

but the papers were briefed this morning that there will be another

:01:31.:01:33.

?1.3 billion for roads and things like that. ?1.3 billion is 0.08% of

:01:34.:01:45.

our GDP. Not exactly an infrastructure investment programme,

:01:46.:01:48.

is it? Yellow like I have to say, it was not thrilling to read the

:01:49.:01:57.

details. -- I have to say... It is the first big financial statement

:01:58.:02:00.

that is going to come and I think there will be a big row about the

:02:01.:02:04.

OBE are forecast because they cannot set out a range, they have to commit

:02:05.:02:09.

to one forecast. Everything they do is incredibly political. DOB are is

:02:10.:02:18.

on a hiding to nothing. -- DOB are -- the Office for Budget

:02:19.:02:26.

Responsibility. I don't know how they will square the circle. It is

:02:27.:02:30.

an interesting week. It is all about the economy and public finances and

:02:31.:02:33.

we don't have to talk about Brexit until next Sunday, but no, I have a

:02:34.:02:38.

terrible feeling that by the end of Wednesday afternoon we will be

:02:39.:02:48.

screaming and shouting about how Brexit is going to be for the

:02:49.:02:51.

economy. Just imagine the Treasury comes out with his forecast that it

:02:52.:02:55.

is going to collapse growth and collapsed Treasury takings, people

:02:56.:03:04.

will be apoplectic. Until now, the economy has continued to grow

:03:05.:03:10.

strongly. Pretty well. They cannot say, we have noticed it slowing down

:03:11.:03:13.

and that will continue. They have to take a punt if they think it will

:03:14.:03:17.

slow down. It affects the Chancellor's figures, because the

:03:18.:03:21.

more they say it is slowing down, and I have seen that it will go from

:03:22.:03:27.

2% down to 1.4%, the more the Chancellor's deficit rises even

:03:28.:03:30.

without any more tax cuts and spending. Absolutely. I think Tom is

:03:31.:03:35.

right. What we will see this week is a continuation of the debate we have

:03:36.:03:40.

been having all along. If the Office for Budget Responsibility has

:03:41.:03:43.

negative and gloomy predictions, there will be howls of agony, and

:03:44.:03:53.

rightly howls of frustration from Brexiteers who will say that all the

:03:54.:03:55.

dire predictions from before the referendum have not come to pass and

:03:56.:04:00.

now you are talking things down in a way that becomes a self-fulfilling

:04:01.:04:06.

prophecy. The money for roads, you were dismissive about it, but every

:04:07.:04:13.

little helps. I don't dismiss it, I say it doesn't amount to a fiscal

:04:14.:04:17.

stimulus in macro economic terms. I'm sure if you are on that road, it

:04:18.:04:26.

will be useful. They are going to build a super highway between Oxford

:04:27.:04:33.

and Cambridge. I would like to see them go out to Japan and learn how

:04:34.:04:40.

to fill a hole in two days. I would suggest the road from Oxford to

:04:41.:04:44.

Cambridge is not for the just managing classes, even though it

:04:45.:04:47.

goes through Milton Keynes, and that simply freezing due freezing fuel

:04:48.:04:59.

duty isn't going to hack it, either. These just about managing people are

:05:00.:05:04.

potentially quite a big band. With income tax rises, it means anything

:05:05.:05:07.

you do to help them is incredibly expensive. The universal credit

:05:08.:05:10.

freeze is an interesting example of that. Philip Hammond sounded

:05:11.:05:17.

ambivalent about it after pre-briefings that it might not, the

:05:18.:05:25.

cuts might not go ahead. There are people who are in work but because

:05:26.:05:28.

they are low paid don't have the number of hours, they require

:05:29.:05:34.

welfare benefits to top up their pay, and these welfare benefits, as

:05:35.:05:39.

it stands, are frozen until 2020, and yet inflation is now starting to

:05:40.:05:43.

rise. That's a problem for the just managing people. Correct. It is

:05:44.:05:49.

worse than that, because we are talking about April 2017 when tax

:05:50.:05:57.

credits become universal credits, so the squeeze will be greater. We will

:05:58.:06:03.

get a small highway between a couple of university towns, but if he has

:06:04.:06:07.

any money left to spend at all, it will be on some pretty seismic

:06:08.:06:14.

jazzman for the just about managing people. I am so glad we're not

:06:15.:06:20.

calling them Jams on this programme, because it is a patronising tone.

:06:21.:06:26.

What the Chancellor and Shadow Chancellor did not confront is that

:06:27.:06:35.

Mr Trump's election is a watershed in terms of being able to borrow

:06:36.:06:38.

cheaply. The Federal Reserve is about to start raising rates. The

:06:39.:06:42.

days of cheap borrowing for governments could be coming to an

:06:43.:06:47.

end. You can feel a bit sorry for labour here because after having had

:06:48.:06:51.

six years of being told that we need a surplus and these things are

:06:52.:06:54.

important, we can't deny the deficit, we have switched now and

:06:55.:06:58.

the first thing that Philip Hammond did was to scrap George Osborne's

:06:59.:07:05.

borrowing targets. He has given himself more wriggle room than

:07:06.:07:08.

George Osborne had. He has and it will cost them more. Debt servicing

:07:09.:07:16.

will now rise as a cost. Where is the next political earthquake going

:07:17.:07:17.

to happen? It could be Italy, or the French

:07:18.:07:24.

elections coming up next spring. Now, who will face the Front

:07:25.:07:30.

National's Marine Le Pen in next year's French Presidential

:07:31.:07:33.

elections? Well, France's centre-right

:07:34.:07:34.

part, Les Republicans, are selecting their candidate

:07:35.:07:36.

in the first round of Well, France's centre-right

:07:37.:07:38.

part, Les Republicans, are selecting their candidate

:07:39.:07:40.

in the first round of Let's speak to our correspondent

:07:41.:07:44.

in Paris, Hugh Schofield. Welcome to the programme. Three main

:07:45.:07:57.

candidates, the former -- two former prime ministers and Nicolas Sarkozy,

:07:58.:08:02.

the former president. It is not clear who the front runner is.

:08:03.:08:07.

Robbins it is quite an exciting race, because four weeks it did look

:08:08.:08:17.

as if it was going to be Juppe. It is a two round race. Two go through

:08:18.:08:25.

and the idea is that they rally all the support together. It looked like

:08:26.:08:29.

the first round would be dominated by Juppe and Nicolas Sarkozy, and

:08:30.:08:33.

there was a clear binary combination there, because Sarkozy was looking

:08:34.:08:41.

for squeamish far right voters. In other words, veering clearly to the

:08:42.:08:44.

right and far right on immigration and identity issues. And Juppe is

:08:45.:08:51.

the opposite, saying we had to appeal to the centre. That was what

:08:52.:08:56.

it looked like. But the third candidate has made this really quite

:08:57.:09:00.

staggering surge in the last few days. There was a debate on Thursday

:09:01.:09:05.

and he was deemed to have won it on television. He is coming up

:09:06.:09:10.

strongly, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him go through,

:09:11.:09:13.

which would be interesting from a British perspective, because if the

:09:14.:09:19.

becomes president, he will be the first president with a British wife.

:09:20.:09:23.

His wife Penelope is Welsh. We will have to leave it there. I

:09:24.:09:30.

would suggest that the reason it is fascinating is that whoever wins

:09:31.:09:33.

this primary for the centre-right party is likely to be the next

:09:34.:09:38.

president, and who the next president is will be very important

:09:39.:09:42.

for Britain in these Brexit negotiations. Nothing will really

:09:43.:09:46.

happen until it is determined. Then after the German elections in

:09:47.:09:51.

October. I would add one more constituent part. The most important

:09:52.:09:56.

thing about the race is who can stop Marine Le Pen. Marine Le Pen will

:09:57.:10:03.

almost be one of the ones in the run-off. The Socialists don't expect

:10:04.:10:12.

much. Francois Hollande is done. There is too much of a cliff to

:10:13.:10:19.

climb. Which one of these three centre-right candidates can stop

:10:20.:10:24.

Marine Le Pen? We have had Brexit and Trump, but we could also have

:10:25.:10:28.

Marine Le Pen. If it is Sarkozy, it is the battle of the right. In some

:10:29.:10:36.

areas, he has moved to the right of marine Le Pen. I suppose he feels he

:10:37.:10:43.

has do in order to take the wind out of our sails. You wonder if she

:10:44.:10:46.

could succeed later on if she does not this time. Talking to French

:10:47.:10:50.

analysts last night, there was suggesting that she could not do it

:10:51.:10:54.

this time but could win the next time. All the events in France over

:10:55.:10:58.

the last year seemed to provide the most propitious circumstances for

:10:59.:11:02.

her to do well, and particularly if you throw in Trump and Brexit.

:11:03.:11:08.

Suppose it is Mr Sarkozy, and he goes through and wins the Republican

:11:09.:11:12.

nomination, and he and Marine Le Pen go through to the second round, that

:11:13.:11:20.

would mean, think about it, is that a lot of French socialist voters and

:11:21.:11:24.

those on the father left would have to grit their teeth and vote for

:11:25.:11:32.

Nicolas Sarkozy. They might not do it. We might see what we saw in

:11:33.:11:36.

America, where lots of potential Clinton voters did not turn out. You

:11:37.:11:48.

got politicians like Melanchon on the far left saying there are

:11:49.:11:50.

foreign workers taking bread out of French workers' mounts. We sometimes

:11:51.:11:58.

forget, because we tend to emphasise the National of the National front,

:11:59.:12:04.

but actually, there are economic policy is quite Bennite. Sarkozy is

:12:05.:12:15.

the Hillary Clinton of the French elections. He is Mr establishment.

:12:16.:12:27.

Juppe and the other third candidate are the same. You have to

:12:28.:12:32.

re-establish candidates running against an antiestablishment

:12:33.:12:34.

candidate. There are populist economic policies from the National

:12:35.:12:39.

front. The other three want to raise the retirement age and cut back on

:12:40.:12:42.

the 35 hour week, which are not classic electoral appeals. Mr Juppe

:12:43.:12:51.

used to be the Mayor of Bordeaux. And we are the biggest importers of

:12:52.:12:54.

claret, so that could have an effect. In 2002, it was Jack Shear

:12:55.:13:03.

against John Marine Le Pen, and the socialist campaign slogan was, vote

:13:04.:13:11.

for the Crook, not the fascist. We will see what they come up with this

:13:12.:13:12.

time. The Daily Politics is back at noon

:13:13.:13:14.

tomorrow on BBC Two, where on Wednesday I will have full

:13:15.:13:19.

coverage of the Chancellor's Autumn But remember, if it's Sunday,

:13:20.:13:25.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:26.:13:34.

Andrew Neil presents the latest political news, interviews and debate. He is joined by Suzanne Evans and Paul Nuttall MEP, both UKIP leadership contenders, Conservative MP Suella Fernandes and James McGrory of Open Britain. The political panel comprises Helen Lewis, Isabel Oakeshott and Tom Newton.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS