30/04/2017 Sunday Politics


30/04/2017

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It's Sunday Morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:37.:00:40.

Theresa May says she has no plans to increase tax levels,

:00:41.:00:43.

but refuses to repeat David Cameron's 2015 manifesto

:00:44.:00:47.

promise ruling out hikes in VAT, national insurance and income tax.

:00:48.:00:54.

The leaders of the EU's 27 member states unanimously

:00:55.:00:57.

agree their negotiating strategy for the upcoming Brexit talks, but

:00:58.:01:01.

And in the last of our series of interviews ahead of Thursday's

:01:02.:01:11.

local elections, I'll be talking to the leader of Plaid Cymru Leanne

:01:12.:01:14.

Wood, and the former leader of the SNP Alex Salmond.

:01:15.:01:20.

They hit an all-time low after coalition government,

:01:21.:01:49.

but are the Lib Dems poised to bounce back,

:01:50.:01:49.

And with me to analyse the week's politics,

:01:50.:01:55.

Isabel Oakeshott, Steve Richards, Tom Newton-Dunn.

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They'll be tweeting using the hashtag #bbcsp.

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So when Theresa May was interviewed just over an hour ago

:01:59.:02:01.

on The Andrew Marr Show, the Prime Minister was asked

:02:02.:02:04.

to confirm that she would repeat David Cameron's 2015 election

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promise not to raise VAT, national insurance and income tax

:02:06.:02:08.

We have absolutely no plans to increase the level of tax,

:02:09.:02:12.

but I'm also very clear that I don't want to make specific proposals

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on taxes unless I'm absolutely sure that I can deliver on those.

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But it is, would be my intention as a Conservative Government

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and a Conservative Prime Minister, to reduce the taxes

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The Tories like to have a clear tax message in elections, are they

:02:24.:02:33.

getting into a bit of a mess? That method wasn't clear, but does it

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mean, saying they have no plans to increase the level of tax? We are

:02:37.:02:41.

clear there will not be a rise in VAT, a lot of commentators will get

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overexcited about that, but there was no great expectations there

:02:46.:02:51.

would be a rise in VAT. Tempting as it is, because even one percentage

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point on VAT rate is 4.5 billion for the exchequer so it is tempting but

:02:57.:03:00.

there has been no speculation that would happen. We can see that she

:03:01.:03:07.

clearly wants to reiterate the language about hard-working families

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but I don't think we are that much the wiser. Even if she does not put

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up rates, according to projections the overall tax burden, as a

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percentage of GDP, is rising, will rise in the years ahead. That is why

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it was an odd phrase, I know she is doing it to be evasive but to say

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they have no plans to raise the general level of taxation, they do

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have. We also know they have specific plans because it was in the

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last budget, they had a tax rise which they had to revise, National

:03:39.:03:45.

Insurance rises, so very wisely in my view they are keeping options

:03:46.:03:52.

open, the 2015 tax-and-spend debate was a fantasy world, totally

:03:53.:03:56.

unrelated to the demands that would follow. They now have the

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flexibility, one of the arguments you had heard last time was Philip

:04:03.:04:05.

Hammond saying to her, we have to break away from the 2015 manifesto

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commitment and we can only do it this way, that is one of the better

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arguments. The Tories like to talk about tax cuts in elections, whether

:04:16.:04:19.

they do it is another matter, but they are not being allowed to talk

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about tax cuts, they are now on the defensive over whether they will

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raise taxes. That is not a healthy position for the campaign to be in.

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If you look at the numbers, quite frankly, if you will not do this at

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this election with eight 20 point lead over Labour, then when will you

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take these tough decisions? Reading between the lines of what Theresa

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May has said all over different broadcasters this morning, income

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tax will go down for low-income families, such as the threshold rise

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that microbes that was already factored in. She has had to commit

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to it again. VAT will be fat, national insurance contributions

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will go up. Do you think they will go up? I think so, she had plenty of

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opportunity to rule it out and she didn't. There was a terrible mess

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with the budget, it is a good tax argument but not a good electoral

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argument that you are eroding the base so heavily with people moving

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into self-employment that as you raise national insurance

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contributions for everybody but the self-employed, it is something the

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Treasury will have to look at. The other triple lock on pensions, we

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don't know if they will keep to that either? If they are sensible they

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will find a form of words to give them flexibility in that area as

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well. I would say there is no question over that, that has gone.

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As Mrs May would say, you will have to wait for the manifesto. That is

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what all the party leaders tell me! Labour have spent the weekend

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pushing their messages Speaking at a camapign rally

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in London yesterday, Jeremy Corbyn promised a Labour

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government would fix what he called People are fed up, fed up with not

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being able to get somewhere to live, fed up waiting for hospital

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appointments, fed up with 0-hours contracts, fed up with low pay, fed

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up with debt, fed up with not being able to get on in their lives

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because we have a system that is rigged against so many.

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I've been joined from Newcastle by Labour's elections

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and campaigns co-ordinator, Ian Lavery.

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Good morning. To deal with this rigged economy, as Mr Corbyn calls

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it, the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell has a 20 point plan for

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workers out today. When you add up everything he plans to do to help

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workers, how much will it cost? The full costings, one thing I need to

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say at the very beginning, the costings of any policy which we have

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already ruled out and any policy we will be ruling out in the next few

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days and weeks will be fully costed in the manifesto and in addition to

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the fact that it will be fully costed, we will see it in the

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manifesto how indeed it has been funded, so we are very clear,

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anything we have seen already, and there are some exciting policy

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releases and there will be more in the future, anything we are going to

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do will be fully costed and in the manifesto. You announced a 20 point

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plan but cannot tell me what the costs will be this morning so at the

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moment it is a menu without prices? It is not a menu without prices, it

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is a fantastic opportunity. This 20 point plan is something which will

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transform the lives of millions of millions of people in the

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workplace... But what is the cost? It will be welcomed by many people

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across the UK. The fact the costings have not been released, you will

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have to be patient, it will be released very clearly, it will

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identify that in the manifesto. Let me come down to one of the points,

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the end of the public sector pay freeze. Can you give us any idea how

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much that will cost? The end of the public sector pay freeze, so

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important to the future of the Labour Party, it is an massive

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policy decision. Let me say at this stage, Theresa May, the Prime

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Minister, this morning, on The Andrew Marr Show, did not have the

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common decency, courtesy all respect to condone the fact that nurses, the

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heroes of the NHS, have had a reduction of nearly 14% in their

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wages since 2010 and are using food banks to feed themselves! Does that

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not say everything that is wrong with today's society? So can you

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tell me what it will cost, which is what my question was? What I will

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say is everything the Labour Party pledges, everything that we come out

:08:58.:09:01.

with, what we will roll out between now and the 8th of June, will be

:09:02.:09:05.

fully costed, people will be very much aware of how much the costings

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will be, where the funding will come from, when the manifesto is

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published. What about doubling paternity leave, nu minimum wage,

:09:15.:09:19.

four new bank holidays, any idea what it will

:09:20.:09:30.

cost? These are exciting new proposals and of course today cost

:09:31.:09:33.

money but we are the sixth richest economy in the world. It is about

:09:34.:09:36.

redistribution of the wealth we create. We are seeing growth in the

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economy, it is how we utilise the finances in the best way we possibly

:09:40.:09:42.

can for a fairer society for the many and not the few. You just can't

:09:43.:09:47.

tell me how much it will cost? That is why I will repeat again that you

:09:48.:09:53.

need to be very patient. Do you know the cost yourself? You are the head

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of the campaign, do you know the cost of these things yourself? I am

:09:58.:10:01.

very much aware of how much the costings are likely to be, they have

:10:02.:10:05.

been identified, they will be published in the manifesto. You

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really do understand I would not be releasing today, live on your show,

:10:11.:10:15.

any costings or predictions with regards the manifesto. Why not? You

:10:16.:10:20.

have released the policy, why not the cost? Because there is a fine

:10:21.:10:25.

detail and we will identify it to the general public in the manifesto.

:10:26.:10:29.

We not only explain how much it will cost but we will explain where the

:10:30.:10:36.

funding comes from. Be patient. Will some of the costs be met by

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increasing taxes? I would think at this point in time there is not any

:10:42.:10:46.

indication to increase basic taxes and again the taxes and spending of

:10:47.:10:52.

the Labour Government with the proposals of the 20 point plan, the

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issues we have got, housing, the NHS, crime, education will all be

:10:57.:11:03.

identified with the costings in the publication. Can you tell us this

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morning, we'll tax for most people rise or not to finance this? We in

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the Labour Party are looking to a fair tax system which will be

:11:15.:11:21.

clearly identified in the manifesto. Mr McDonnell also wants to ban all

:11:22.:11:27.

0-hours contracts. Would that include those who actually like

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those contracts? There are nearly 1 million, depending on which figured

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you'd use, there are nearly 1 million people on zero-hours

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contract and the vast proportion of those want to be able to live a

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decent life, a secure life, they want to understand whether they will

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be at work the next day, they're included hours... I understand a lot

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of people don't like zero-hours contract and your proposal will

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address that, but there are those, I saw one survey where 65% of people

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on zero-hours contract like the flexibility it gives them. Will you

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force them off zero-hours contract or if they like them will they

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continue with them? We will discuss it with employee is to make sure

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individuals in the workplace have the right to negotiate hours in that

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workplace. Guaranteed hours is very, very important. Zero-hour contracts

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are an instrument in which employers abuse and exploit mainly young

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people, mainly female people in the workplace. We would be banning

:12:33.:12:38.

zero-hour contract. But there are those, students for example, who

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like them, would they be forced off zero-hour contracts in your

:12:44.:12:48.

proposal? Our proposal would be banning zero-hour contract and

:12:49.:12:51.

introducing contracts which have set hours in the workplace. You also say

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no company will be able to bid for a public contract unless the boss

:12:58.:13:01.

earns no more than 20 times the lowest paid, or the average wage,

:13:02.:13:06.

I'm not quite sure which. What would happen if British Aerospace bids to

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build more joint strike Fighters and the boss is paid more than 20 times?

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I understand the point you raise but we have an obscene situation in this

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country, Andrew, in which the bosses at the very top make an absolute

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fortune... But what would happen then? Who would build joint strike

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Fighters... The difference in wages between the top earners in the

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country and the people in the factories, in the workshops,

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producing the goods, is vast. I understand that is the reason you

:13:44.:13:48.

want a ratio. What I am saying is, what happens if the ratio is

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greater? Who gets the contract if not British Aerospace? Who else

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builds the planes? We are going to introduce a wage rate CEO of one to

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20. -- wage ratio. We want to close the gap between the people at the

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very top and people who produce the goods. Let me try one more Time, who

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would build the joint strike fighter? We would look at the issue

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as it came along but the policy is clear... Can you name a single

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defence contractor weather boss' salary is less than 20 times average

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earnings? We are not reducing, we have rolled that out as part of this

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fantastic plan to transform society to get rid of discrimination, to try

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and bring together our communities. We will introduce a pay ratio of one

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to 20. Fair enough, thank you very much.

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It's a month after the triggering of Article 50, and EU leaders -

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with the exception of Britain - met in Brussels this weekend

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to agree their opening negotiating stance, to get the divorce

:14:57.:14:58.

It is inside this psychedelic chamber where Britain's 'Grexit'

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future will be decided over the next two years, but there is a vast gulf

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in rhetoric coming from the UK and the EU. With parallel narratives

:15:21.:15:30.

emerging for both sides. There is broad agreement that an orderly

:15:31.:15:33.

withdrawal is in the interests of both sides. But Theresa May's

:15:34.:15:38.

position is that the terms of our future trade deal should be

:15:39.:15:41.

negotiated alongside the terms of our divorce. Meanwhile the EU says

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the terms of the UK's exit must be decided before any discussion on a

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future trade deal can begin. But don't forget that divorce

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settlement. Don't remind me. In Brussels, many think written should

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pay even more, while in the UK ministers said the divorce bill

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should be capped at 3 billion. After you. Thank you.

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For are you looking forward to it? Isn't that divorce bill a bit high?

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Isn't this about punishing Britain? We are very united, you all seem so

:16:21.:16:25.

surprised but it's a fact. How soon can we get a deal? We have to wait

:16:26.:16:32.

for the elections. It was the decision of Mrs May. It took over an

:16:33.:16:38.

hour for the leaders to make their entrances but once inside it's just

:16:39.:16:41.

a few minutes to agree the negotiating guidelines. They set out

:16:42.:16:47.

three main areas. The first phase of talks on the divorce settlement will

:16:48.:16:51.

deal with the existing financial commitments to the EU, the Northern

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Ireland border and the rights of EU citizens in the UK. They said a UK

:16:55.:16:58.

trade agreement can be discussed when the first phase of talks

:16:59.:17:03.

reaches significant progress. And that there must be unity in the

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negotiations, that individual EU members won't negotiate separately

:17:09.:17:14.

with the UK. They are quite good here at negotiating because they are

:17:15.:17:18.

used to it. They set a maximum and then they have to recede a little

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bit depending on what the other side is prepared to offer. I think there

:17:23.:17:28.

is room for manoeuvre in some issues, but I don't think some of

:17:29.:17:32.

the baseline things will change that much. For example I don't think the

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European Union will concede on the rights of citizens who are already

:17:38.:17:42.

in the UK. It will be very difficult for them to accept that they will

:17:43.:17:48.

not be any exit bill, and the question of Northern Ireland is very

:17:49.:17:52.

important as well, the hard order question. The baseline things are

:17:53.:17:55.

not going to move that much, then you have room for manoeuvring

:17:56.:18:00.

between. On security, defence and the fight against terrorism, the

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guidelines said the EU stands ready to work together. And after lunch,

:18:05.:18:09.

friendly signs from some EU leaders as they gave individual press

:18:10.:18:14.

conferences. Paul and said the talks should open doors to new

:18:15.:18:17.

opportunities and even German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who had

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earlier said some in Britain were deluded about Brexit, softened her

:18:25.:18:26.

tone saying there was no conspiracy against the UK. Unity was the

:18:27.:18:31.

buzzword at this summit and for once everybody seemed to be sticking to

:18:32.:18:36.

the script. That unity is not only amongst the 27 states, it's also

:18:37.:18:40.

among the institutions so many of the divisions we have seen in the

:18:41.:18:45.

past at European level do not exist. That is very important and it's not

:18:46.:18:49.

be unity that is directed somehow against the UK because I think we

:18:50.:18:53.

all want this to be an orderly process and part of that is that the

:18:54.:19:06.

EU side is unified. So although there are no surprises here, what

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took place in this room was a significant step towards the real

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Brexit negotiations which will begin soon after the general election in

:19:14.:19:18.

June, said to be the most complex the UK has faced in our lifetimes.

:19:19.:19:22.

Isabel, Steve and Tom are still with me.

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Isabel, doesn't the British media have to be a bit careful here? We

:19:29.:19:36.

would never take at face value anything a British politician tells

:19:37.:19:41.

us. We would question it, put it in context and wonder if they are

:19:42.:19:44.

bluffing, but we seem to take at face value anything a European

:19:45.:19:49.

politician says about these negotiations. You only have to look

:19:50.:19:53.

at the front page of the Sunday Times today to see that. They quoted

:19:54.:19:58.

at length Juncker, who didn't like the food at the reception and this

:19:59.:20:02.

and that, and I think the mood is very optimistic. The key thing is

:20:03.:20:07.

the EU trade Commissioner has said we will get a free trade deal and a

:20:08.:20:12.

lot of people seem to be wilfully ignoring that incredibly big

:20:13.:20:15.

concession. That is what will happen in their view. Everything that is

:20:16.:20:21.

said at the moment needs a slight rerun over. They are all in

:20:22.:20:26.

negotiating positions, plus we seem to be completely unaware that they

:20:27.:20:29.

all have their own domestic constituencies as well. Angela

:20:30.:20:35.

Merkel has an important election coming up in September,

:20:36.:20:38.

Euroscepticism is quite different from Britain of course, but there's

:20:39.:20:42.

a different kind of euro scepticism in Germany, she has got to deal with

:20:43.:20:47.

that. Of course she has, which is why you are right, nothing should be

:20:48.:20:51.

taken too seriously out of the mouths of British politicians or

:20:52.:20:56.

European politicians until October this year. We have got to wait for

:20:57.:21:01.

the French elections, then German elections, and if you look through

:21:02.:21:05.

this you can see a way forward. There's no trade talks until pay up,

:21:06.:21:10.

but what was actually written was no trade talks until we make

:21:11.:21:14.

significant progress on the money. You can define significant progress

:21:15.:21:18.

in a lot of ways but come December, fireworks over the summer, we all

:21:19.:21:24.

get very excited about it, in these chairs I'm sure, come December

:21:25.:21:28.

things will look a lot smoother. The German elections are at the end of

:21:29.:21:32.

September but I've seen reports in German press, depending how it goes

:21:33.:21:35.

it could take until Christmas before a new coalition government is put

:21:36.:21:42.

together. The Brussels long-standing negotiating tactic of nothing is

:21:43.:21:45.

agreed until everything is agreed, then I guess the British could say

:21:46.:21:50.

we agree a certain sum of money if that's what it takes but that

:21:51.:21:55.

depends on them, what good trade deal we get. If we don't get that,

:21:56.:22:00.

the sum of money is off the table. In that sense, the two are going

:22:01.:22:06.

parallel. However, I wouldn't entirely dismiss what people are

:22:07.:22:10.

saying in their pre-election periods to their own electorates because

:22:11.:22:16.

they have to some extent to deliver subsequently. Of course Angela

:22:17.:22:19.

Merkel is campaigning and electioneering, who wouldn't, she

:22:20.:22:23.

has a tough election to fight, but she is measured and thoughtful and

:22:24.:22:27.

when she says things like some of the British are delusional, that is

:22:28.:22:31.

unusually strong language for her. What was she referring to? I don't

:22:32.:22:39.

know, it wasn't specific. Have the cake and eat it perhaps the

:22:40.:22:43.

sequencing the British don't want. When they thought the British

:22:44.:22:46.

government was going to effectively demand membership of the single

:22:47.:22:49.

market, that's not going to happen now. Unless you sign up to the four

:22:50.:22:57.

pillars, that's the cake and eat it proposition, which they are right in

:22:58.:23:03.

saying Theresa May has made. But everybody has access, even with no

:23:04.:23:07.

deal you have access. The other side of it is I think there will be a

:23:08.:23:17.

united position from them. And so, as somebody pointed out in that

:23:18.:23:23.

report, they are experienced, tough negotiators, so I don't think it

:23:24.:23:30.

will be quite as easy as some think. I spoke to one of those who drew up

:23:31.:23:37.

Article 50 and they said to me they deliberately put this two year

:23:38.:23:40.

timetable in to make it impossible for anybody to think about leaving.

:23:41.:23:47.

This is really tight, this negotiation. Easy, it isn't.

:23:48.:23:50.

This coming Thursday, voters up and down the country

:23:51.:23:52.

will be going to the polls in this year's local elections.

:23:53.:23:55.

Over the past few weeks I've interviewed representatives

:23:56.:23:57.

of the Conservative Party, Labour, the Liberal Democrats,

:23:58.:23:58.

Today it's the turn of Plaid Cymru and the SNP.

:23:59.:24:02.

A little earlier I spoke Alex Salmond, who until 2014

:24:03.:24:04.

I started by asking him why Scots should vote SNP in local elections

:24:05.:24:09.

when the Scottish Government had just cut central Government funding

:24:10.:24:11.

It's actually a funding increase going into Scottish councils this

:24:12.:24:27.

year, and if you look at the funding position for example between

:24:28.:24:31.

Scottish councils and those in England, which are obviously

:24:32.:24:34.

directly related through the Barnett formula, the funding in Scotland has

:24:35.:24:38.

been incomparably better than that in England so there's a whole range

:24:39.:24:49.

of the -- of reasons... What's happening south of the border

:24:50.:24:52.

indicates the protection the Scottish Parliament has been able to

:24:53.:24:56.

put in that helps vital services in Scotland. But there hasn't been a

:24:57.:25:00.

funding increase, the block grant from Westminster to Edinburgh was

:25:01.:25:04.

increased by 1.5% in real terms but the grant to councils was cut by

:25:05.:25:12.

2.6%. It was going to be a cut of 330 million, the Greens got you to

:25:13.:25:16.

reduce it to 170 million but it is still a cut of 2.6%. Your own

:25:17.:25:27.

Aberdeenshire Council has had a cut to 391 million. You have cut the

:25:28.:25:31.

money to councils. Yes, but councils have available to them more

:25:32.:25:35.

resources this year, and as you say the budget increased that further

:25:36.:25:40.

which is why we put forward an excellent local government budget in

:25:41.:25:43.

Aberdeenshire and resisted a Tory attempts to knock ?3 million off...

:25:44.:25:49.

You asked me about Aberdeenshire, and Aberdeenshire has put forward a

:25:50.:25:54.

budget for investment expansion and resisted a Tory attempts to knock ?3

:25:55.:25:59.

million off the education budget, and I'm very grateful you have given

:26:00.:26:02.

me the opportunity to make that point. The Government in Edinburgh

:26:03.:26:08.

has cut the money to Aberdeenshire by ?11 million. It is a cut. But

:26:09.:26:15.

there is an investment budget in Aberdeenshire that has been made

:26:16.:26:18.

available by the ability to increase the council tax by 2.5% after a

:26:19.:26:24.

nine-year freeze in Scotland, and that has brought more resources into

:26:25.:26:27.

local government and that's why the butchered in Aberdeenshire has been

:26:28.:26:31.

an investment budget including protection of the education budget

:26:32.:26:36.

in the face of a Tory and liberal attempt to cut bit. You have to

:26:37.:26:40.

compare what is happening in Scotland and England, and there's no

:26:41.:26:43.

doubt Scottish local authorities have been much better funded than

:26:44.:26:49.

those in England over the last few years and that's been the ability of

:26:50.:26:52.

the Scottish Government to protect the services at local level. A good

:26:53.:26:58.

reason for voting SNP. If they have been so well funded, why after a

:26:59.:27:04.

decade of SNP rule do one in five Scottish pupils leave primary school

:27:05.:27:11.

functionally illiterate? You have got to take these things... Nicola

:27:12.:27:15.

Sturgeon has made it a top priority to address these challenges but

:27:16.:27:20.

let's take another statistic. 93% of Scottish kids are now emerging from

:27:21.:27:24.

school to positive destinations, that means to further education,

:27:25.:27:32.

apprenticeships or work. Why are one in five functionally illiterate? You

:27:33.:27:38.

argue one statistic, I'm arguing Scottish education is putting in

:27:39.:27:42.

some substantially good performances like the 93% going on to positive

:27:43.:27:47.

destinations. You can't have a failing education system if you have

:27:48.:27:52.

got that 93%, and incidentally a record low youth unemployment in

:27:53.:27:56.

Scotland without the second lowest unemployment rate in Europe. These

:27:57.:28:00.

pupils are being prepared by the Scottish education system. Let's

:28:01.:28:05.

take the figures in the round on education. It's so important. Under

:28:06.:28:09.

your watch, under your government, the Scottish schools in the most

:28:10.:28:15.

important global comparison have fallen from tenth to 19th in

:28:16.:28:25.

science, and 11 to 24th in maths, that is a record of decline and

:28:26.:28:32.

failure. That is by the OECD and first questions about that, but the

:28:33.:28:38.

OECD has also described Scotland is one of the best educated societies

:28:39.:28:42.

in the world. That was from the school system in previous years gone

:28:43.:28:48.

by. For those who are currently in Scottish schools, you have fallen

:28:49.:28:54.

from 11th to 24th in mathematics. The OECD was commenting on

:28:55.:28:57.

introduction of the new curriculum for excellence in which they have

:28:58.:29:01.

given a resounding thumbs up to it, and that's the same source as the

:29:02.:29:06.

rankings which you are comparing. Nicola Sturgeon has said there are

:29:07.:29:10.

challenges on Scottish education, particularly the access through the

:29:11.:29:13.

education system and the attainment gap but don't tell me it's failing

:29:14.:29:18.

when 55% of our pupils have gone on to higher education. That's one of

:29:19.:29:21.

the most impressive figures in the world. Why have you cut 4000

:29:22.:29:28.

teachers? The pupil numbers in Scotland have been falling over

:29:29.:29:32.

recent years as well and now of course we are increasing the number

:29:33.:29:35.

of people going through teachers training so we can make sure that

:29:36.:29:40.

number increases, but listen, the Scottish Government and Scottish

:29:41.:29:45.

Parliament, as you very well know, are subject to real terms spending

:29:46.:29:49.

cuts over the last few years and all public services have been under

:29:50.:29:53.

pressure. The main reason in terms of teacher numbers has been an

:29:54.:29:56.

attempt on the Scottish Government to protect the teacher pupil ratio,

:29:57.:30:01.

and that will now be enhanced by a further taker -- intake. You

:30:02.:30:09.

promised you would reduce primary class sizes to 18 and instead they

:30:10.:30:14.

are now 23.5 and rising. You broke that promise. You didn't mention

:30:15.:30:21.

where we started from. We have kept the teacher pupil ratio very solid

:30:22.:30:25.

in Scotland and that's been against a range of public expenditure cuts

:30:26.:30:29.

but the new intake of teachers into the new teacher training in Scotland

:30:30.:30:31.

I think will enhance the system. You have spent in the pasty in

:30:32.:30:42.

Hollywood 43 hours on Government time debating independence. How many

:30:43.:30:46.

hours have you debated education on Government time? I don't have that

:30:47.:30:52.

they get a hand... The answer is zero, you have spent zero-hours

:30:53.:30:55.

debating education on Government time. Isn't it time the SNP got back

:30:56.:31:01.

to concentrating on the day job? Andrew, as you very well know Nicola

:31:02.:31:06.

Sturgeon has identified a key priority, closing the attainment gap

:31:07.:31:09.

in Scottish education. That is exactly what she has done. Let me

:31:10.:31:14.

answer the question, it is difficult to be in a remote location, if you

:31:15.:31:20.

talk before I answer the question then the view was will not be able

:31:21.:31:26.

to listen. I let you answer that without saying a word. Is this

:31:27.:31:31.

general election about independence, as you say it is, or not about

:31:32.:31:35.

independence, as Mrs Sturgeon says it is? No, I have said exactly the

:31:36.:31:41.

same as Nicola Sturgeon on that. The issue what independence will be

:31:42.:31:45.

decided in a national referendum of the Scottish people. The mandate for

:31:46.:31:50.

that referendum was gained in last year's Scottish elections. What this

:31:51.:31:54.

election is about is backing the right of the Scottish parliament to

:31:55.:31:57.

exercise that mandate and also providing real opposition to this

:31:58.:32:00.

Tory Government and allowing the Scottish Parliament to reverse

:32:01.:32:05.

austerity and some of the public expenditure cutbacks you have been

:32:06.:32:09.

talking about, that is what this is about, backing our Scottish

:32:10.:32:10.

Parliament. Alex Salmond, speaking

:32:11.:32:12.

to me earlier. I'm now joined by the leader

:32:13.:32:14.

of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood. You accuse the Government of wanting

:32:15.:32:21.

an extreme Brexit, those are your words. What is the difference

:32:22.:32:25.

between hard Brexit and extreme Brexit? My concern is the way in

:32:26.:32:29.

which we leave the European Union could be very damaging to Wales if,

:32:30.:32:33.

for example, there are tariffs introduced then that would have a

:32:34.:32:37.

real impact in terms of Welsh jobs, and I want to make sure that we have

:32:38.:32:44.

a Brexit that doesn't cause the damage to Wales that could be

:32:45.:32:48.

caused. But what is the difference between extreme and hard? Anything

:32:49.:32:53.

that puts Welsh jobs at risk is either extreme or hard and

:32:54.:32:57.

unacceptable to Plaid Cymru, and we will do what we can to protect those

:32:58.:33:01.

jobs. You want Wales to remain a member of the single market even if

:33:02.:33:05.

the UK isn't, which would mean Wales having to accept the free movement

:33:06.:33:10.

of people, still being under the jurisdiction of the European Court,

:33:11.:33:21.

and you also want to stay in the customs union which means you could

:33:22.:33:24.

not do your own free trade deals. What is the difference between that

:33:25.:33:26.

and being a member of the European Union? We would be like Norway,

:33:27.:33:29.

outside the European Union and inside the single market. The key

:33:30.:33:31.

question is the issue of jobs and the ability to continue to trade.

:33:32.:33:36.

Wales exports, we are the biggest exporter in the whole of the UK, so

:33:37.:33:40.

there are many jobs reliant upon those goods being able to be sold to

:33:41.:33:48.

the single market. Is it central to the UK? Out of the four countries

:33:49.:33:54.

that make up the UK... Proportionally, yes. If you remain

:33:55.:34:01.

in the single market, it is hard to see how Wales could stay in the

:34:02.:34:06.

single market if the UK -- when the rest of the UK was not, you cite

:34:07.:34:10.

Norway, that has free movement, it has to be said, it effectively have

:34:11.:34:15.

to accept the jurisdiction of the European Court, it is not in the

:34:16.:34:19.

customs union so it can do some of its own free trade deals, but the

:34:20.:34:28.

Welsh people voted to leave. We have to accept the principle of free

:34:29.:34:32.

movement if there is not going to be a hard border between the north and

:34:33.:34:35.

south of Ireland. There is going to be free movement within Ireland and

:34:36.:34:40.

therefore freedom of movement, as we said in the referendum campaign,

:34:41.:34:45.

would be very, very difficult to rule out. You lost that campaign, as

:34:46.:34:51.

you know, Wales voted to leave, 17 Council areas voted to leave, only

:34:52.:34:57.

five voted to remain. Doesn't it explain why your party is going

:34:58.:35:01.

nowhere? A majority in Wales voted to leave but you effectively want to

:35:02.:35:07.

support that and de facto remain in the EU? I don't accept that, we

:35:08.:35:12.

accepted the result but Plaid Cymru now is about defending Wales. There

:35:13.:35:17.

are so many risks facing our people from the jobs perspective, the

:35:18.:35:21.

privatisation perspective, the cuts perspective, and from the fact that

:35:22.:35:25.

the Tories would like to grab power was back from our National Assembly,

:35:26.:35:30.

so the key point... If you look at the Wales bill that went through

:35:31.:35:34.

recently, the list of reserved powers there suggests there are some

:35:35.:35:37.

powers currently within the Welsh Assembly jurisdiction that would be

:35:38.:35:44.

dragged back. Which power was will Westminster take back? They could

:35:45.:35:49.

take powers back over the NHS, for example. There is no indication they

:35:50.:35:56.

want to do that. The Tories have attacked the Welsh NHS. That is my

:35:57.:36:05.

point! Quite viciously. If they increase their mandate, I wouldn't

:36:06.:36:08.

put it past them to try to take power was back over the NHS and then

:36:09.:36:13.

of course we risk our NHS being privatised though this election is

:36:14.:36:18.

all about defending Wales, protecting Welsh people from further

:36:19.:36:21.

privatisation and cuts and a power grab from the Tories. Why is there

:36:22.:36:25.

never a breakthrough for your party, Plaid Cymru? Labour dominated in

:36:26.:36:30.

Wales for years, the Tories do quite well, Ukip had a surge for a while,

:36:31.:36:34.

it looks like the Tories will have another surge, never you, always the

:36:35.:36:39.

bridesmaid, never the bride. Wait until Thursday and I think you will

:36:40.:36:43.

see that in many parts of Wales we will increase our representation at

:36:44.:36:46.

a local council level. In the Rhondda, where I am assembly member,

:36:47.:36:53.

we are looking to increase our representation... You are only 13%

:36:54.:37:01.

in the polls will stop which is half of even the Tories in Wales! If you

:37:02.:37:05.

don't breakthrough in the selection, if the real problem is going

:37:06.:37:12.

nowhere, do you think you will pack it in? Robert Green not, I have a

:37:13.:37:17.

job to do, a vision of Wales which is about building up our nation and

:37:18.:37:21.

standing on our own two feet and my job is not done yet. Thank you for

:37:22.:37:25.

being with us as part of your job, we will see how it goes on Thursday.

:37:26.:37:29.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:30.:37:31.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:37:32.:37:34.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

:37:35.:01:00.

We have the local elections, Metro elections in Liverpool, greater

:01:01.:01:16.

Birmingham, West Midlands, how will they play into the general election?

:01:17.:01:21.

Significantly, it is very unusual. People keep comparing this with the

:01:22.:01:27.

election in 83, not! Margaret Thatcher was nervous and to wait

:01:28.:01:30.

until after the local elections to call the election to see the result.

:01:31.:01:34.

We are getting these result in the middle of an election campaign so it

:01:35.:01:40.

will be important, whoever does badly will suffer a dent in

:01:41.:01:44.

confidence in terms of how they approach the election and we are

:01:45.:01:48.

also going to have mayoral figures as a reminder of another big

:01:49.:01:52.

difference with the 80s that however big, say, the Conservatives win in

:01:53.:01:56.

Westminster, there are now sectors of power in other parts of the

:01:57.:01:59.

United Kingdom which were not there in the 80s. One of the reasons

:02:00.:02:06.

niches that are rated in 83 was memories were still alive in

:02:07.:02:10.

political circles of 1970, Wilson saw the local election results and

:02:11.:02:14.

thought, I can win, he was told he would win by the Economist magazine,

:02:15.:02:18.

who had done the analysis, and of course he lost, so that is why she

:02:19.:02:25.

waited, Mrs May does not need to wait for that at all now, and on the

:02:26.:02:30.

Metro elections, the one she will be looking at is the West Midlands,

:02:31.:02:34.

that is the one that is a competition. I think she can really

:02:35.:02:38.

lose on Thursday in the local elections, governing parties are

:02:39.:02:41.

supposed to take effect again, losing lots of council seats. She is

:02:42.:02:47.

projected to put on 100 or so seats, Labour projected to lose around 200,

:02:48.:02:52.

the first time the main opposition party has shed seats since something

:02:53.:02:55.

like 83 so clearly the local elections give Mrs May great

:02:56.:02:59.

momentum going into the general election campaign but there is a

:03:00.:03:03.

downside in that, which is what we have already heard fighting about

:03:04.:03:06.

this morning, if it looks like it is going too well for the Tories, it

:03:07.:03:11.

says to voters, why bother turning up? Sushi comes up with totally

:03:12.:03:15.

unbelievable sound bites this morning that this is the most

:03:16.:03:18.

important general election in her lifetime. Really?! For her it is! It

:03:19.:03:27.

always is until the next one! I wonder if voter turnout is a

:03:28.:03:32.

problem? Tory voters are more likely to vote than Labour voters. If there

:03:33.:03:37.

is a sense that it is all over bar the shouting, the overall turnout

:03:38.:03:42.

will be low that Tory voters are still likely to turn out more than

:03:43.:03:46.

Labour voters so she would still win some. I don't think she needs to be

:03:47.:03:51.

too worried, I think there will be a significantly low turnout, even I am

:03:52.:03:54.

finding it hard to be that excited about this general election. Really,

:03:55.:04:02.

the policies, we have spent a lot of time talking about them today and we

:04:03.:04:06.

have to examine them, but all this is about is, do you want Theresa May

:04:07.:04:10.

or Jeremy Corbyn in Number Ten? Those are the only question is,

:04:11.:04:14.

apart from possibly how strong do you feel about Brexit, that will be

:04:15.:04:19.

on the voters' minds. You may say that but I will not be put off from

:04:20.:04:23.

going through a list of policies that we have already had in the last

:04:24.:04:29.

24 hours. On the Conservatives, more powers to stop company bosses under

:04:30.:04:38.

pensions, of course Philip Green was in mind there. Labour has come up

:04:39.:04:43.

with quite a few policies, actually, give all work of equal rights,

:04:44.:04:46.

whether part-time or full-time, temporary or permanent. Ukip, scrap

:04:47.:04:56.

VAT or takeaway -- on takeaway food and end the BBC licence fee. The

:04:57.:05:01.

Liberal Democrats have come out posed to the runway at Heathrow. I

:05:02.:05:09.

thought I knew that already? Will any of these policies make a

:05:10.:05:16.

difference? They are all nice handy things that people quite liked but

:05:17.:05:20.

probably not, is the answer. They are an awful way away from polling

:05:21.:05:24.

day now for people to remember and latch onto. I don't think you make

:05:25.:05:29.

your mind up on small issues like Heathrow, unless you live in

:05:30.:05:33.

Richmond-upon-Thames, maybe, but the problem Labour have got with

:05:34.:05:37.

unfailing a lot of these retail type policies which, in themselves, are

:05:38.:05:41.

very popular, is no one will listen to them until they get over the

:05:42.:05:45.

leadership credibility issue. Jeremy Corbyn could the world on a stick,

:05:46.:05:49.

but if no one believes he can deliver it then he will not be

:05:50.:05:53.

listened to and he has not done much apart from a speech yesterday in

:05:54.:05:56.

which is claim to fame was getting arrested, I don't see how that would

:05:57.:05:59.

work for him getting to Number Ten. They are not making progress on it.

:06:00.:06:08.

Labour has rolled out a number of policies which, taken individually,

:06:09.:06:11.

would have certain traction in normal times, quite interesting

:06:12.:06:17.

ideas, this sense of unfairness, a feeling that ordinary workers have

:06:18.:06:20.

not done well out of the recovery, those who caused the crash have, 20

:06:21.:06:26.

points, I went through some of them earlier, putting aside they are not

:06:27.:06:29.

costed, we are assured they will be. The problem I suggest is not the

:06:30.:06:35.

costing but the cut through? Every election has a context which is

:06:36.:06:40.

determined by opinion polls, however sceptical we are these days, and if

:06:41.:06:43.

one party is way ahead it is difficult for the other party to

:06:44.:06:49.

appear relevant, because if people assume they are not going to win,

:06:50.:06:53.

even some of its own MPs are saying, we are not going to win this, so you

:06:54.:06:59.

can vote for us, it is very hard to get attention and relevance. Where I

:07:00.:07:04.

think all the parties are bad with their current leaders is framing

:07:05.:07:07.

arguments, so those policies you have highlighted makes sense. The

:07:08.:07:13.

best leaders are brilliant framers of an argument and neither Theresa

:07:14.:07:18.

Maynor Jeremy Corbyn R. They have been campaigning, their manifestos

:07:19.:07:24.

are not out yet, both sides have been telling us we have to wait for

:07:25.:07:28.

costings, but it has not stopped them campaigning. Let's remind you

:07:29.:07:31.

of where they have been and what they have been doing so far.

:07:32.:07:37.

Let's start with Jeremy Corbyn, his first official visit was in the

:07:38.:07:41.

ultra-marginal Conservative seat of Croydon Central where the MP Gavin

:07:42.:07:47.

Barwell has a lead of just 165. That is not the only Conservative seat he

:07:48.:07:52.

has visited, along the way he popped in on Bristol North West, a

:07:53.:07:55.

Conservative majority of nearly 5000. The Tory seat of Cardiff

:07:56.:08:02.

North, a lead of just over 2000, Warrington South, just over 2700,

:08:03.:08:10.

and Crewe and Nantwich, Tory majority of three and a half

:08:11.:08:14.

thousand. Yesterday he visited Bethnal greed and Bob, a Labour lead

:08:15.:08:20.

of 20 4000. Theresa May kicked off her campaign in Bolton, Labour

:08:21.:08:24.

majority of over 4000. On her way round the UK she had a comfy stop in

:08:25.:08:29.

her own maidenhead seat, where she is defending a majority of nearly

:08:30.:08:34.

30,000, before travelling to other Labour marginals including Dudley

:08:35.:08:38.

North, a Labour lead of 4000. Bridgend, a lead of just under 2004

:08:39.:08:44.

Labour, before becoming ambitious and visiting shadow minister Richard

:08:45.:08:58.

Bergen's Leeds East seat, which he won by over 12,500 votes. Yesterday

:08:59.:09:02.

she went north of the border to Aberdeenshire, where amongst other

:09:03.:09:04.

places she visited the SNP seat of West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine,

:09:05.:09:06.

where the Tories would have to gain over 7000 votes to unseat the NP.

:09:07.:09:07.

What do you make of it all so far? It is remarkable she is doing these

:09:08.:09:15.

visits in Scotland. Past but even five years and the idea of a Tory

:09:16.:09:20.

Prime Minister going round Scotland would be utterly counter-productive,

:09:21.:09:24.

and actually they are ambitious for Scotland now under with Davidson, a

:09:25.:09:28.

prospect of multiple seats, and that would be a real genuine shift in

:09:29.:09:31.

Scottish politics, the likes of which we have not seen for 15 or 20

:09:32.:09:41.

years. If she gets that, that helps towards 100 seats, because if she

:09:42.:09:45.

wins ten in Scotland, it is effectively 20, the SNP lose ten,

:09:46.:09:50.

she gains ten, she wants to do that in the Midlands with Labour, and the

:09:51.:09:55.

North. To get the 100 majority, other than Scotland, she has to win

:09:56.:09:59.

Labour seats, that is all that is there. And clearly she has been

:10:00.:10:05.

told, it is obvious, that she has a chance of doing so, otherwise you

:10:06.:10:08.

don't go to these parts of the country in the first few days of the

:10:09.:10:13.

campaign. All logic points to her being able to pull it off as well.

:10:14.:10:18.

The opinion polls, the state of the Labour Party. The only qualification

:10:19.:10:22.

I have in this is that politics is so wild and free Braille at the

:10:23.:10:26.

moment, it doesn't feel like landslide to rain. That is true, it

:10:27.:10:35.

doesn't. It is early days, we haven't yet had the manifestos, the

:10:36.:10:39.

campaign is yet to gather momentum. It doesn't feel like landslide

:10:40.:10:44.

territory. I disagree, look at every single poll, the Tory lead is 10% in

:10:45.:10:51.

Wales, you can see her picking up 20 seat there. Put this together, I am

:10:52.:10:56.

told by the way she is going into traditional Labour heartland again

:10:57.:11:02.

tomorrow, the key is the Ukip vote. That will implode... Crumble towards

:11:03.:11:08.

Tories? If she can hoover that up and retain the Tory vote, she will

:11:09.:11:23.

have a majority of 150. I cannot let you go without

:11:24.:11:24.

reminding you that it is Donald Trump's 100 days. He's not making a

:11:25.:11:24.

lot of it now, this is what he said last night.

:11:25.:11:27.

We are just beginning in our fight to make America great again.

:11:28.:11:30.

Now, before we talk about my first 100 days, which has been very

:11:31.:11:39.

exciting and very productive, let's rate the media's 100 days.

:11:40.:11:44.

Because, as you know, they are a disgrace.

:11:45.:11:59.

There you go, still bashing the media, that was at a rally in

:12:00.:12:05.

Virginia, the 100 days was last night. He seems happier campaigning

:12:06.:12:11.

than running the country. You each have 20 seconds to give me your

:12:12.:12:15.

board on the first 100 days. Remarkable, he will not stop

:12:16.:12:22.

slagging off the media but America first has not meant America first in

:12:23.:12:27.

terms of national policy, he has reneges on what he said about Nato

:12:28.:12:32.

being obsolete. He is moving from the old right to the centre because

:12:33.:12:36.

that is where you get things done, he is a pragmatist, also is about's

:12:37.:12:44.

friend Nigel Parrott is no longer welcome, we read this morning!

:12:45.:12:50.

Allegedly! He loves campaigning but finds governing much more difficult.

:12:51.:12:54.

Who would have thought being president of the United States was a

:12:55.:12:59.

difficult job?! He loves rallies but being president and politics is a

:13:00.:13:04.

very difficult thing indeed. Thank you, there we go, Mr Trump's 100

:13:05.:13:08.

days, we will see what the next 100 brings.

:13:09.:13:11.

The Daily Politics is back on BBC Two after the bank holiday

:13:12.:13:14.

on Tuesday at midday, with all the latest

:13:15.:13:16.

And I'll be back here on BBC One next Sunday

:13:17.:13:20.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:21.:13:30.

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