28/07/2013 The Andrew Marr Show

half the week waiting for a pair of hospital doors open, I promise to

raise the curtain a bit quicker today. Amid such positive news, not

just the royal baby, but sport, the weather, the economy, we will try

not to spoil the mood. No guarantees, though! Joining me for a

review of the newspaper, Trevor Phillips, formerly of the Equality

and Human Rights Commission, and Beth Rigby of the Financial Times.

0.6% may not sound a lot, but the growth figures came as music to the

ears of government ministers who have been anxiously awaiting proof

that the economy is recovering. This morning I am joined by the Business

Secretary, Vince Cable, not one for going wildly over the top, but is he

at least cautiously optimistic that the UK has turned the corner? Does

he have any doubts about the move to pump up the housing market? Ed

Miliband has announced more details of how Labour's relationship with

the unions will be be formed. There will be a rare, special party

conference next spring to vote on the changes. His close ally Sadiq

Khan, shadow justice secretary, is here to explain the process, how

radical Will the changes be? Also this morning, that Colossus of

British broadcasting, Alan Partridge has a new movie out, I will be

talking to his co-creator, Armando Iannucci, writer, producer and

political satirist. And Sophie Raworth has been meeting two actors

whose production of Othello is currently one of the hottest tickets

What is to go and wait for my Glasgow band Travis will perform

live in the studio for us. All that is coming up, but first the news

with Naga Munchetty. Good morning. MPs have criticised

the way official migration figures are gathered, saying that they are

little better than a best guess. The Commons Public Administration

Committee says the statistics are not fit for purpose, although the

government disagrees. EU political correspondent Tom Barton.

For nearly a week, this ban has been driving around north London, with

its uncompromising message. If you are in the UK illegally, either go

home or face arrest. It is a message which has angered Nick Clegg, who

has complained to the Home Office. The Liberal Democrats say they were

not told about this pilot scheme in advance and say the idea is

distasteful and divisive. The Home Office says the poster is offering

help to those who choose to leave voluntarily, but a refugee charity

is threatening to take the Government to court. It is blatant

racism, in our opinion - go home get arrested, it is pretty basic stuff,

and it speaks to the lowest common to nominate, it speaks of racism.

Even keeping track of the number of people coming into the UK legally is

proving tricky. In a report published this morning, the Public

Administration Committee says the official statistics are a blunt

instrument. In the 12 months to June last year, the Government estimates

that 515,000 people entered the country and 352,000 emigrated. That

would put the net migration figure, immigration minus emigration, at

163,000. But because immigration and emigration figures are estimates,

that number could be as high as 198,000, or as low as 128,000.

Either way, the government is missing its own target of getting

that figure below 100,000. The Home Secretary, Theresa May, has

revealed she was diagnosed with type one diabetes two months ago. Doctors

have told her that she must inject herself with insulin at least twice

a day for the rest of her life. In an interview with the Mail on

Sunday, she says that the diagnosis came as a shock but that it does not

affect the way she does her job. Supporters of Egypt's ousted

President Mohamed Morsi continue their city and at a mosque in Cairo

despite violent clashes with security forces in which more than

70 were killed yesterday. The American Secretary of State, John

Kerry, has called on Egyptian leaders to step back from the brink

after protesters accused the military of shooting to kill when

trying to break up the demonstration.

Despite the latest carnage, the camp of the fine set up by Mohamed Morsi

supporters after his removal by the army in early June I is very much

still here. In fact, if anything, it seems to be growing. There is a lot

of anger here about what happened and a determination not to give way.

It is a complete massacre. We are peaceful, we do not have a stone, we

do not even throw stones. Yesterday there was a massacre, at 2am, these

people are peaceful. This is the improvised field hospital which took

some of the deluge of casualties. It did what it is good for them and

sent the survivors onto proper hospitals. It was a hell, it was a

hell. The first time, within six hours, eight hours, we accept that

just now more than 100 died and more than 1500 injured patients. Clearly

there are preparations here for dealing with more bloodshed. Another

collision appears inevitable, with the protesters refusing to move and

the interior minister saying they will be cleared away if they don't.

Officials say there are some peace initiatives, but they are not very

hopeful. So the stage seems set for yet another collision and more

bloodshed while the international powers: The interim government to

exercise restraint. The longer this and resolve stand-off goes on, the

greater the chances that ten children's will once again erupt

into more violence. -- tensions. British shoulders have been involved

in an operation to clear terrorists from Sangin in Afghanistan. MOD says

about 80 troops were sent to the area earlier this month. British

Army operations in Afghanistan were previously reported to be scaled

down with a view to complete withdrawal in 2014.

It is the final day of the Anniversary Games in London, and

some celebrated British Paralympians will be returning to compete in

Jelavic Stadium. Among them will be wheelchair racer David Weir, won

gold four times last year, and the champion blade runner Jonnie

Peacock. That is all from me for now, I will be back with the

headlines just before ten o'clock. Now it is back to Jeremy.

On the front pages today, some of the stories you have just been told

section, lots of great athletics in the last couple of days. The Royal

Family can reign for ever, says the Telegraph. You do not often see the

words forever in a headline. The Sunday Mirror has Savile's secret

lair at a record shop in Manchester. Scotland on Sunday, Scots should

have a vote on the monarchy, a slightly different Royal story. In

the Express, a royal baby celebration. The Observer has Egypt

as well, the killings in Egypt in the the political trouble there.

With me to review the papers in more detail, Beth Rigby of the Financial

Times, and Trevor Phillips, welcome, where do you want to start? I think

start where you left off, Egypt. The Observer has this big double page

spread, and what it tells us is that the army is slowly, but

remorselessly, tightening the screw on the previous president Morsi's

supporters, and they are going to eliminate them as a political force.

I think the striking thing about this is that the whole region

depends on Egypt, it is the biggest country, it is a significant country

strategically, it is very young. So this has got to get sorted out,

otherwise it is a world catastrophe. I think the Americans are desperate

to get stability, and I should say, by the way, there is one other issue

here - looking at the coverage, it has been a particular problem for

the left of centre newspapers, who greeted the toppling of Morsi was a

sort of great thing for democracy, the people in the street. Actually,

it was a military coup. Independent carry atypically

arresting piece by Robert Fisk, who is at the hospital next to the

mosque where there was this attack, and he talks of the blood of 37

corpses, of doctors using two weeks worth of medical supplies, so quite

graphic and brutal piece about what is happening there. And this is

really bad news for the United States. I mean, you know, Morsi is

overthrown, and they say a coup is not a coup, because obviously they

want to carry on funding Egypt, and they want to prevent a kind of...

The Muslim Brotherhood into power... Muslim Brotherhood members backed

Morsi, and they are victims in all of this, that is the narrative we

are getting. Exactly, but it is an invidious choice for the US - who

back, a military that is shooting people in mosques, or do they

withdraw funding and they are out of control? It seems to me that there

is no choice. We believe in democracy, and sometimes democracy

delivers people, Morsi, the Muslim Brotherhood, that we, the West, do

not like or share a sensibility with. You cannot pick and choose.

saw during the Cold War that the US would often backed dictatorships to

prevent a Communist regime. This is the difficulty, he was elected, and

then he was sort of an elected in a kind of coup, and nobody really

knows what type of position to take on that. It is partly a media

problem. Every time there is a massive protest, it is written up as

the will of the people. Well, actually, the will of the people is

what happened at the ballot box. Treating this as... You hear this

phrase repeated again and again, sometimes on the BBC, the people say

this. Well, actually, they don't say this just because there are 100,000

in the square. They say this because they voted for this government.

Let's move to the royal baby. We can smile about this at least. People we

don't have to vote for! A classic headline on the Telegraph. The Royal

Family can rain over us for ever, this is apparently a poll which

tells us, surprise, surprise, that three quarters of British people

expect the Royal Family to be there. That is the point of the

Royal Family, that they are there for ever. They provide, if you like,

I think what some poets would call a still, small centre in a turbulence

democracy. And, frankly, it has been a good thing for this country.

Observer? Well, the Observer is already raining on the parade here.

Tim Lewis has a piece from the pressure group Republican, where

they basically say, a quarter of readers like them, a quarter really

don't, and about 50 people don't really care about the Royal Family,

they are agnostic, they do not feel strongly either way whether they

should reign over us for ever or not. But I think the point of all of

this is that at the moment, it is an institution that waxes and wanes. At

the moment, the institution is extremely popular, because we have

had the Diamond Jubilee and the royal baby. I have to say, William

and Kate, I thought, did a sterling job when they came out of the

hospital under intense pressure. When Prince Charles comes to the

throne, a much more divisive figure, I will be interested to see what the

Sunday Telegraph headlines are like them about the Royal Family, because

it might be a period of less love between the nation and the Royals.

An interesting story about Theresa May, Trevor, tell us about that.

Well, Theresa May has spoken to the Mail on Sunday, and she has revealed

that she has type one diabetes, which means she has to take

injections twice a day. You sort of wonder why it is a story, it is a

private matter, but I think what happened is that she has probably

decided that, rather than have this come out, because she was diagnosed

a few months ago, have this come out as a kind of great revelation by

somebody else, she has taken control of the story and said, this is what

it is, that is it, I'm going to get on with my job. If I may say, I have

worked with Theresa May for two years, when I was at the commission

- she is the nominally industrious. -- the nominally. I do not imagine

there is a minute of the day when she is not working or thinking of

her job. Often tipped as a future leader. Is that behind this? Well, I

wonder whether one element of this is that the story suggests that,

because she has this condition, it might bar her from public office,

and maybe what she is trying to do is get in before that starts to

become an issue. But the truth is that these days all sorts of

disabilities, because that is what it is, are managed, controlled, and

people do fantastic jobs with all kinds of conditions. I actually

spoke to some people in her camp about this, because I was fascinated

as to why she was doing this now. She said there was no particular

timing, no reason - she has had the illness, it was a good time in the

diary to do it, and she plays with a straight bat, and she wants to get

it out, the information out. I think, politically, it is

interesting that she says it now, because I think she's doing it from

a position of strength. She has had a great Spending Review, she dealt

with the Woolwich terrorist attack really well, police and crime

figures are down, immigration figures are down. Well, maybe not,

according to the papers today! So I think she has chosen to do it now,

shall able ability but do it from a position of strength, and she is

definitely is the favourite to overtake Cameron at the moment. --

show a vulnerability. Whether you think she will or not, I think get

it out in a position of strength and build from that. We mustn't miss out

the van, this story is getting bigger and bigger. This is amazing,

who thought this was a good idea? I am astounded because Mark Harper,

the minister, is generally speaking safe pair of hands. The idea that

you put this around and it is a serious exercise in immigrant

control, it is crazy. And would this be regarded as racist? No, just

stupid. When you are in a situation when Nigel Farage is saying you have

gone over the top with immigration, you know you are in the wrong place.

We did an interesting story in the Financial Times on Saturday about

the government asking certain people coming on visitor visas from certain

countries in the Commonwealth, to pay �1000 upfront comment of the

country. Quite popular here, and I think what is happening with this

story and that story is that there is a domestic audience that the

government are trying to speak to, to say we are tough on immigration.

We might not like that story, but I bet if you took that down to your

local pub a lot of people might like it. As we are seeing in the other

stories today, they haven't got control over the numbers. They don't

know what the numbers are, and the problem is one reason the population

don't like it is because this is... There is a story about the rape

threat and Twitter. This is about the journalist who got Jane Austen

on the bank note this week by a long campaign, so she is a really good

feminist. She has had absolutely horrific abuse on Twitter, I mean

rape threats. I looked at her Twitter feed and there is stuff you

could not repeat here. In the past 48 hours there has been this massive

campaign to try to fight back. I think about 17,000 people last night

signed a petition asking Twitter to act on this. The reason I think this

story is interesting on another level is that you saw David Cameron

coming out last week against the likes of Google saying it is not

enough for you to sit back and say there is a child pornography site,

we will take it down, you have two actively seek out these websites and

take them down. Maybe this will change Twitter's behaviour because

they shouldn't just sit back and wait for somebody to complain about

being threatened with rape. They should block these people much

sooner. Thank you. The weather has been very active lately with

dramatic storms so what is on the dramatic storms so what is on the

cards for today and the week ahead? If there were any doubts the long

dry spell have ended, those doubts have been thoroughly washed away by

some rain we have had overnight. Still a Met Office ample warning in

place, and this rain is increasingly spreading across Scotland where

there will be localised flooding, travel disruption and some strong

winds close to the east Coast. The rain will continue right through to

this afternoon in the north-east of Scotland. In southern parts of

Scotland it will become a little drier. For Northern Ireland, England

and Wales, there will be some bright spells and in those bright spells it

will not feel too bad, but some showers as well and some of those

will be heavy and thundery, and it will also be breezy. This evening

and overnight, the rain clears away to the north, although the Northern

Isles will stay wet and a rash of showers continuing elsewhere, some

of them still sharp. Further showers through the next couple of days,

cooling down for a while, but it may well warm up again towards the end

well warm up again towards the end of the week.

"A love letter to Norwich" is how the legendary broadcaster Alan

Partridge describes his new film, Alpha Papa. It premiered last week

in his spiritual home and Norfolk did him proud. Partridge, looking

debonair in a stylish safari suit, brought a touch of radio glamour to

the city. Starring, of course, Steve Coogan, the film sees Alan having to

work with the police to defuse a potentially violent siege after a

new media conglomerate takes over his radio station, North Norfolk

Digital. The film's writer and producer Armando Iannucci is here.

I'll be talking to him in a moment. First, a look at how the new film's

title came about. Hectic danger day, chap of steel, colossal velocity...

What was the one you liked? Luck Alpha Papa because it is radio

alphabet for your initials, and also means top daddy. You don't think it

sounds foreign? Alpha Papa! It does if you say it like that. I'm pleased

to see you are still laughing at the material. Alan always makes me

laugh, I think that is why he has been going for so long. He makes

Steve and myself laugh, we reminisce about him when we meet, we never

tire of him. Has he changed a lot since the original? Yes, as a sports

reporter he had much more of a John Motz and voice, and Steve was

younger, he looked about 12, and he was more of an exaggerated

caricature of presenter. We see him now, he has grown into himself. He

has a paunch, which Steve has generously grown himself for the

film, and I think he feels more relaxed. He has given up the dream

of being a big national staff. He has his own radio show in Norwich,

then something happens in film that could potentially put him on the

national stage again. He is trying to dress younger will stop he has

that 2005 presenter of top gear look. Are you on any medication?

have aggressive athlete 's foot but that is the only thing. Do you

suffer from panic attacks? Do I look like I do? I have had one panic

attacks in a car wash which was because of the angry brushes coming

towards me. Does the idea of weaponry trouble you? No, I have

fired several rifles at funfairs, but I have never fired one in

anger. It is a combination of arrogance and weakness. Yes, he is

an optimist and he is very confident about himself, the perfect

broadcaster in that when the light comes on he will talk, she fills a

vacuum. Speak without thinking is his motto. Dead air is a crime! Over

attention to tiny detail that annoys most people around him. When his

character came about it was like a spoof news show, and what was the

story? I said to Steve we need a sports reporter, have you got a

voice that would sum up all sports reporters, and he came up with this

voice, and instantly someone else in the room said he is an Alan, and

someone else said and Partridge, and we had an instant idea of his

aspirations, how the news reporters were laughing at him because he only

covered sport, how he wanted to get on television, and he looked up to

Michael Parkinson rather than Angela Rippon. It happened instantly and we

knew there was a character who had a lot of potential, but we didn't

realise he would still be around 22 years later. For a writer it must be

the moment you live for when something appears and you think this

will last. We didn't see � 's in our eyes, but we thought this is funny.

We thought it would gained a cult audience, we were in our mid-20s

then, and we had no idea we -- it would gradually infect the society

the way it has now. Looking at your political work, do you look at the

kind of politics we do here and think actually you cannot write

anything funnier than that? stopped The Thick Of It because I

felt we had said everything that needed to be said and now it is more

important to ask questions about how to fix it. Thank you for joining us.

You may have missed it amid the excitement over the royal baby, but

last Monday evening Ed Miliband announced he wants to hold a special

conference of the Labour party next spring to vote on proposed changes

to Labour's relationship with the trade unions. He wants individual

union members to make a positive decision to join the party rather

than being automatically affiliated. But he's been warned that a system

of opting in could lead to a huge drop-off in the party's income. The

Shadow Justice Secretary, Sadiq Khan, takes the lead for Labour on

party funding issues, and he's with me now - good morning. How will this

special conference work? Ed Miliband has said he wants to make our party

more open, and he has asked Lord Ray Collins to prepare an interim

document this morning which will open consultation with the various

parts of the Labour family and next spring we will have a special

conference where the Labour Party will decide whether to approve the

changes Miliband has announced all to vote against them. Because trade

unions are very much part of the family, they will have 50% of the

vote at the conference. We are proud of our history with trade unions, we

have access to 3 million hard-working people including

nurses, technicians, factory workers, and we want to make the

link stronger and to give them a bigger say in the way to do that is

to let them opt in. You want to reshape your relationship and they

are deciding, it doesn't make sense. If the trade unions are happy about

this, they will vote against and we will lose the opportunity to change

the rules, but we are hoping we can persuade them this is the right

thing for the Labour Party. The country needs a reformed party

firing on all solicitors and that is why Ed Miliband has announced these

changes. We are hoping the trade unions will see the strength in

this, we want them to have a greater say in the direction of the party to

make was more electable in 2015. is a synthetic showdown because you

want Ed Miliband to get stuck into the unions to win more votes in the

south of England. Of that was the case Len McCluskey would not be

criticising. He raised him!Know from he warned us we would be losing

millions of pounds worth of trade union money. What will you do about

that? We will find other ways. We have seen in America how Barack

Obama has had donations, and how in France people have been making small

contributions. It is not legitimate for hedge funds managers or for

bankers to bankroll the Conservative party. It is really state funded, we

don't want that, we want to increase the numbers of people contributing

to the party. If more people paid a small amount, that would be a good

way of raising money. We think there should be a cap of �5,000. This is

not just about money, it is about in some way breaking the link between

Labour and the unions. Where does this go in your conference? It is

not about breaking the link. Rather than the bus driver or factory

worker, when they join the trade union, having the option to opt out,

we want to have a relationship with them throughout the process of them

and wish to be affiliated, to come to party meetings, to come to events

in my constituency. Will unions still have a third of the votes in

leadership contests? That is an important question. One of the

things that Ray Collins is looking at is the knock-on consequence of

these changes that Ed Miliband has announced. For example, it may lead

to a change in the way we elect our leader. Ed Miliband has announced

you can be a registered supporter to take part in alien ship contest.

That may lead to changes in relation to how we make policy. Ray Collins

is looking at the consequences of the changes in Ed Miliband's

announcement. If Unite have behaved so appallingly, will you give back

the �8 million you have accepted from them since the last election?

No-one is saying that. You called the police in at Falkirk! There have

been allegations about membership recruitment, we have had an

investigation. We asked police to investigate, the police have found

no allegations of criminality. what is the problem? We will

continue with disciplinary hearings. The problem is this, it is 2013, and

it is not acceptable to have a system where individual trade union

member is not aware some of their fees are paid to the Labour Party.

Some of them are conservatives or may even be Liberal Democrat voters.

We think you should have a choice to opt in. We think you, as a

hard-working bus driver, factory worker, electricity, ought to play a

part in Labour Party policy. Before you go, this campaign on the side of

the bus which is going around six boroughs, go home or face arrest, it

is aimed at illegal immigrants. is not aimed at illegal immigrants.

Yvette Cooper has been silent on it, why is that? The shadow

immigration spokesperson has spoken. Yvette Cooper has not spoken. You

have a member of a team, the shadow immigration minister, not

unreasonably, has given a statement during because of the week, and

another one today. You either believe that politics is a team

sport, or just one person running the show. Do you believe it is

racist? It is short-sighted and foolish. It is an attempt to win

over UKIP voters. What evidence is there that people have left the

country as a consequence of these advertisements? Anyone that buys

anything from the back of a lorry is foolish, and that includes this sort

of silly poster. So you do not think they should be doing it. I have seen

no evidence it will work. Get out or be arrested is not the way to get

people out of the country. The Government should have borders that

work, so we know who is coming in and going out, they should enforce

immigration policies, rather than doing that, this is a silly gimmick.

Thank you very much, steady calm. Othello is as tense and tragic as

any of Shakespeare's plays with almost no subplot for release,

highly pressurised, and when that pressure is released, the ensuing

violence is shocking. The National Theatre's production is being

lionised by critics and audiences alike. Adrian Lester plays the Moor,

and it also stars Rory Kinnear. Here is a brief look at Nicholas

Hytner's modern version set on an overseas military base. Jealousy is

the green eyed monster which does Mark. Look to your wife, Observer

well, with Cassio Let me hear you at the Olivier Theatre. Adrian

Lester began by explaining how he and Rory Kinnear got into character.

Between us, we worked out quite carefully, in rehearsal, the moments

that went through Othello's armour, where Iago said the lines that went

through and really chimed with something, with the vulnerable side

of Othello, something that he would attack to defend. And the idea of

his love for Desdemona, his military standing and the uniform, all the

pride he takes in that, those things make him very vulnerable. Iago is

one of those characters that literary critics have been puzzling

about for centuries, trying to solve them. How did you approach him as a

character? You have to think about how long he has been in the army,

along he has served with Othello, the relationship they have developed

over 20 years. You cannot trust what he says, because he always seems to

be lying. He believes Othello and slept with his wife, and whether or

not it is true, he is going to pursue him as if it is the truth.

That was the key ingredient to why he starts where he does, but the

murderous nurse and the vital element of the play is not there at

the beginning. There is a sense of it starting quite light, and then

really closing in. The set helps, it is a brilliant set, and it really

concentrate the power of the play and makes it very claustrophobic,

and the lighting brings up the heat and the Hayes of being stationed in

a hot country. It is a bit like being at Camp Bastion, why has the

military theme been so important. is a really military play. You are

expecting a play about a war between the Turks and the Venetians, and

then at the beginning of the second act, the Turks are drowned on their

way to Cyprus and there is no war. So it then becomes an examination of

how soldiers interact together, when there is no outlet for that pent-up

aggression. But Nicholas Hytner, the director, was so intent on making it

such a central theme, deployed a military adviser, somebody who had

worked in the army for 32 years, to make sure that he got it right, the

sense of betrayal is absolutely at the heart of it, isn't it? It is, it

is funny how much Major General Jonathan David Shaw came in to

advise us, and it is amazing how much of the play really chimed with

his modern boots on the ground experience of being in the army, and

he talked to us in rehearsal about some of the situations of being in

bunkers for months on end, because the enemy were lobbing mortar over

into the compound, and they slept in these bunkers. And he talked about

soldiers getting distressed or needing psychiatric health because

of the stuff they have been through, and all of its chimed brilliantly

with what he saw in the play. It made complete sense to him, the idea

of being passed over and seeking revenge. The production is at a big

impact, and it is going to be on at the cinema now. Go up the

broadcasters on the 26th of September. So it will appeal to a

much wider audience. I have done a couple of these live, Hamlet, and I

think probably when the NT Life was first mooted, I was here at the

time, and I think I did not really see how the experience of going to

the theatre could be captured by a camera and could be experienced by

such a wide range of people. I am still worried! He has done it, so I

keep picking his brains. I assure him, it is going to be all right!

The camera teams are in from the first day of rehearsals, it is not

the same as being in the theatre, but it is the closest equivalent if

you live in America or Australia, the nearest you are going to get,

and it is almost as good, I am assured. And the letters after, the

letters one got from people, having driven from their small town in

Texas, driving three hours to the nearest cinema that shows it because

of their passion for Shakespeare, that was quite overwhelming, the

response. You are well experienced in front of television cameras, so

many people around the world know you from Hustle. A con artist,

great! You got lessons in drifting. Yes, it all sort of chimed with what

you learn about body language as an actor, card tricks, learning to play

poker, anyone shuffling cards. How to lift the aces and all of that, do

things with Collins, how to pick pockets.

If something seems too good to be true, it almost certainly is. Always

look a gift horse in the mouth unless you don't care whether it has

deep. And you cannot cheat an honest man.

One of the things the guys said, he said, where'd you think pickpockets

normally stand on June trains? You know the warning sign, where it says

beware of pickpockets? They are around there, because when human

beings see the sign, you instinctively go, oh, you check

where your wallet is. You have just told everyone around you where it

is, sometimes the back pocket. Instinctively, you will glimpse it

am and you will go, it is still there. The pickpocket will know,

OK, back left. I will remember that, that is fantastic! You can also

remember that for James Bond. not to make him angry because he has

learned a few things! You have had a fantastic run in the last two.

was a smaller part in Quantum Of Solace, but you got to see the

machinations of a huge movie like that, and everything that comes with

it. We ended up going to Panama as well, and this one, it was a larger

part, but I think the furthest I went was Buckinghamshire, so

hopefully in the next one I will get some more glamorous hotspot again.

It is coming from MI6, the data packet is linking to our network.

This is behind our firewall. We should shut down. Track it!It

carries an enormous heft and popularity. I think my third day of

filming, that little worm of doubt came in that said, everybody is

going to watch this... And just a slight sweat started! A slight heart

murmur! And you realise that you cannot think about that, you cannot

think, you know, about its effect or popularity - you have just got to do

the job. Thank you very much. Rory Kinnear and Adrian Lester

talking to Sophie Raworth, and the National Theatre production of

Othello will be relayed live in cinemas around the country and

around the world on 26th of September.

Now, ever since the financial crash of 2008, the state of the economy

has dominated British politics. It has it seemed that flat lining was

the best it could do, but ministers are beginning to seem cautiously

optimistic. Vince Cable is an economist by profession, so he

should know what is going on, and he is here now, good morning. What kind

of growth is this? Is it sustainable? I think your phrase

cautious optimism was right. We do not yet know if it is sustainable,

because it will be to go on for some years, and it will need to be the

right kind, because we cannot repeat the mistakes of the past which led

to the financial crisis, we have to make sure that growth is in exports,

business investment, and it is targeted for the long-term, which is

what we are trying to do through our industrial strategy. Manufacturing

is down 10% on the boom level, GDP is down 3%, so we locked into a

permanently lower setting here? financial Christ did enormous

damage, and we are a poorer country as a result, and we are having to

rebuild it in the right way. -- the financial crisis. Actually, there

are some good things happening in manufacturing, the car industry,

aerospace, and some of those other sectors, but we have got to keep

that going for a number of years, so we have to concentrate on skill

training, building up innovation, developing procurement within the

UK. So it is a long-term strategy, and jumping on a few quarters of

figures does not result. All kinds of things, as a result of us getting

into growth. For example, one of your ministers, Matthew Hancock,

says firms have a duty to employ Brits, do you agree with that?

way he put it, I do not have any question. He is not talking about

compulsion or discrimination. He is saying that we should be trying to

make sure that British people, particularly young people, are

trained so that they can take jobs that are available, and we are

competing in a single market across Europe, and it is right that we

encourage British people to be employed. A sense of duty on the

employer, that is what he was talking about. I would echo that in

another way, and one of the things I am trying to do through our

industrial strategies encourage our British manufacturers to use British

supply chains. I do not use the word duty, but I encourage them, and if I

find the big producers in the North Sea are buying in all their

platforms and sold from overseas, I challenge them. I think what Matthew

is saying is very similar to that. But a lot of people preferred to

recruit from abroad, possibly because they can pay them less. They

may even pay them below the minimum wage. Well, that is completely wrong

and it is illegal, and indeed there is a point at which the issues

around low pay and illegal immigration intersect, and I am now

working with HMRC to have a much tougher crackdown on employers who

do employ people with the minimum wage. We are going to make it easier

to bring prosecutions and make sure that illegal behaviour is stopped.

What about this Travis we have been talking about, going around six

paras with the message go home or face arrest for people who are here

illegally, is it racist? I wouldn't use that word, but it is stupid.

think it is offensive, and it is designed apparently to create a

sense of fear in the British population we have a vast problem

with illegal immigration. We have a problem, but it is not a fast one

and has to be dealt with in a measured way and that is why I have

said we have to crack down on employers abusing Lope. There is a

report out saying we cannot have much confidence in the immigration

statistics anyway so the problem could be worse than we think.

not a totalitarian state, we don't count every single person, but it is

difficult being an immigrant in Britain. You cannot work or have

access to benefits. The argument about those numbers, which was

released this morning by the select committee, it only really matters if

you are pursuing some target and there is this net immigration figure

which the Conservatives are very preoccupied by. This idea that you

are pursuing the figure is very misleading because amongst other

things, the largest number of people counted as immigrants are overseas

students, who are visitors but under the United Nations classification

they are regarded as immigrants but they are good for the country.

far as the van ghost, one more question, it is your Government that

has done it, has there been a row about it? I certainly wasn't

consulted, but it is a pilot study that has stopped and we will look at

the results. Do you want it continued? I cannot see I would be

in favour of it but let's see what it produces. It was stupid and

offensive and it is unlikely it will continue. People are still on tight

budgets, do you, like the Archbishop of Canterbury, want to port Wonga

out of business? I would not single out one company, but there are many

people who operate through payday lenders on owner as terms and it is

all very well to condemn that but you have got to offer an

alternative. The best alternative is credit unions and we are promoting

it, giving them �38 million to provide an alternative. So you could

work with the Archbishop of Canterbury on this? Yes, I think it

is important for a church to give practical help and that is what he

is doing. Talking this week about banks that are not lending and all

of that, but help me understand this because you argued against debt

levels during the boom, you were worried about banks splurging too

much. We want banks to take people's savings and channel them

into productive investment through small and medium-sized companies and

they are not doing that. Manufacturers are struggling to

raise credit and that is what I was referring to. They are not doing it

because they have been told to shore up their balance sheets. We don't

want the banks toppling over again so they have got to have a sensible

balance and not overreact. What is wrong with nationwide which seems to

have gone back into house loans like there is no tomorrow, what's wrong

with them being told to keep 3% of the money they are lending as cash?

And mutual building societies are crucial to provide proper

competition with the banks. There was a prospect a year ago that song

would get into business lending, and the nationwide is having to withdraw

from that because of these tough capital requirements. Staying on

housing, and there is this Help To Buy scheme which essentially allows

people access to Government cash to buy a house. We are back to stuff

you were warning about in the 2000s. The Help To Buy scheme is

actually quite complex. One part is already operating, providing

mortgages against new homes and nobody has questioned that. The

proposal to provide a guarantee for a limited range mortgage could be a

problem, it could inflate the market, it could do, but if it is

properly designed it could be a useful addition. The Canadians have

a guarantee scheme for the insurance that underlies the market and it has

stabilised it. You are right, we mustn't risk returning to the

problems of the last decade when housing was out of control but the

real problem is housing supply. The current numbers are about 100,000

per year, hopelessly inadequate. That is the point, you put this

money into getting people to compete with each other to rack up the price

of existing houses when people say you should be building more houses.

Yes, this was a disaster we are trying to come back from and the

Government has taken measures on housing supply. Social housing?That

is where the gap is, and the Liberal Democrat conference, at that we will

be talking about that. It is a big problem area. HS2, the high-speed

rail link, you have suggested recently it may not go ahead. You

said we are still looking at it. Obviously the Government is

continuing to look at it. We have got to do proper cost benefit

analysis. Could it be cancelled?The Government is not remotely

considering cancelling it. It is a big project with major benefits in

reducing the gap between North and South in economic terms, it will

increase capacity, but it has got to make economic sense. Getting more

expensive every day. That is why the evaluation is our continuing.

who watch television will think that all right, they are not 100% on it.

The project has got to produce benefits for the country, but you

cannot have governments switching on and off these projects for decades

because nothing happens. The David Cameron interview last week had from

speculating about life post election and he had this telling phrase where

he said he was looking forward to leading Conservative only

Government. It couldn't be clearer, he doesn't you. We are not looking

to work with them, we are back with distance between the two parties. At

the next election we will be competing independently, competing

on our own record which we are proud of as an independent party. So you

are also looking forward to being out on your own? We will be out on

our own campaigning independently. Now the news headlines. A group of

MPs have criticised the accuracy of official figures showing the number

of people who are coming to live in Britain. The Government has rejected

the conclusions from the Public Accounts Committee saying that

migration is at its lowest level for decades. It comes as a controversial

Home Office campaign is due to come to an end. Taking on this programme,

Sadiq Khan called the campaign short-sighted and foolish.

Supporters of Egypt's ousted President Mohamed Morsi continue to

sit in at a mosque despite clashes in which 72 people died. There has

been international condemnation of the violence.

That is all from me for now. The next news on BBC One is at midday,

but let's have a look at what is coming not after this programme.

British Muslims say they are being demonised after the murder of Lee

Rigby, are they? And should the church of England be sticking to

knee bending, not money lending? The Glasgow band Travis went quiet for

five years while its members focused on raising families and writing new

material. Credited with creating the right climate for bands such as

Coldplay to flourish, Travis enjoyed huge success and worldwide fame from

the late '90s onwards. Travis are back with a new album - Where You

Stand. It's not out until next month but we're delighted that two members

of the band have come in this morning to give us a sneak preview.

Fran and Andy, welcome. Where have you been? We have been providing a

taxi service for our kids! We went away to write together for one week

every couple of months, we did it in a very relaxed way, we didn't talk

about touring. It was good. Andy, benefiting from the whole Travis

thing because you always rejected to fame in a way, you were the

invisible band. Yes, we concentrated on the music which seems to have

paid off so far. That is it for this Sunday, indeed for the run of the

programme. As usual we are taking a summer break and we will be back on

September the 1st. Andrew will be back in the hot seat presenting the

show himself. The meantime, whether you are staying at home, or you are

off on a break, have a lovely summer. Now we have Travis and first

# Another day, I feel the weight of the atmosphere's pressure. # And I

can't escape # I try to run, I try to find my feet. # My soul is

sticking to the street # I get a move, I got to get myself to clean

my shoes # And take the cynic route # I was afar, I'm following the star

# Home isn't where you are # And everything is falling into place.#

And then we move again # So take the curve and move along # Until we're

gone, we're moving on # And on, and on, and on # And on, and on, and on

listen to my toy today # On the motorway # And I could feel, the

ground beneath my wheels, # Putting me back in my place # And everything