28/09/2014 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning from Birmingham, the heart of England,

where the Conservative Party is holding its annual conference.

It is a party with one fewer member now of

course, following the defection of a second MP, Mark Reckless, to UKIP.

And we have the entirely traditional spectacle of a minor sex scandal

and the departure of the minister for civil society, Brooks Newmark.

Deeply irritating for David Cameron, but of course,

he's got rather bigger things on his mind this morning, as RAF

Will this war go any better than the last one?

And joining me today for our review of the Sunday newspapers, crammed

with politics, two sober heads to help chart us through it all -

the director of the human rights group Liberty, Shami Chakrabarti.

And the Mail on Sunday's contributing editor, Ian Birrell.

No-one ever said it was easy being Prime Minister.

David Cameron leads a Conservative Party visibly fraying

at the edges over Europe, still burdened with huge and

His government, after this week's emergency recall of Parliament,

has joined the coalition against one of the most barbarous but slippery

And if all that wasn't enough, he has failed to amuse the monarch,

after revealing that she purred with pleasure over the Scottish

You need resilience and sticking power to succeed as PM,

But I've also been joined by Nigel Farage, the UKIP leader, gloating

after the defection of a second Conservative MP - and that means

He tells us about taxes on luxury shoes and cars,

and how he is parking his tanks on Labour's lawn as well.

And we've got some music to match, from a man who grew up wanting to

be Elvis Presley but who sounds more like one of the tougher bits

from the Bible - the very great Nick Cave, on something we are all

Quite an hour ahead, but first, the news, with Sian Lloyd.

The Ministry of Defence has confirmed that

RAF Tornados continue to fly over Iraq, gathering intelligence

Yesterday, two jets carried out armed reconnaissance operations but

The Pentagon says US jets have made strikes on the Syrian city of Raqqa,

as well as IS positions near the Turkish border,

Two RAF Tornado bombers returning to their base at RAF Akrotiri in Cyprus

yesterday after a seven-hour mission over Iraq.

Their weapons were still on board, they had not fired in anger.

No targets of opportunity had been found.

But the MoD said their very presence in the skies

over Iraq would have had a deterrent effect on Islamic State, forcing the

The Tornados were followed soon after by a Voyager

The RAF has had six fighter-bombers based in Cyprus since mid-August,

but until yesterday, they were restricted to

Two more planes took off last night, but the MoD said it would not give a

running commentary on every mission, simply saying that the aircraft

would be used in attack roles when appropriate targets were identified.

David Cameron has said there will not be British boots on the ground

in Iraq, but the effectiveness of air power alone has been questioned.

Lord Richards, a former Chief of the Defence Staff, said the only way

to defeat Islamic State was to take back the land they were occupying,

and that meant using Western armies, not just local forces.

This is video of an American air strike on an Islamic State compound

near the besieged Kurdish town of Kobani in northern Syria.

The use of Britain?s airpower is much more modest and confined at the

moment to Iraq, but there are likely to be many more missions like this.

David Cameron has said Britain is committed for the long-term.

Police say they are continuing to examine footage from hundreds

of CCTV cameras as part of efforts to find

A search of scrubland near the Grand Union Canal in west London,

where the 14-year-old was last seen five weeks ago, will also resume.

Yellow ribbons have been attached to railings and homes

across west London in a show of support for the search.

Today, runners competing in a half marathon

The Bishop of Arundel and Brighton has resigned,

saying he has brought "shame" on his diocese and the Catholic church.

The Right Reverend Kieran Conry said he had been "unfaithful"

to his promises as a priest, but he said his actions were not illegal

He has stood down from his post with immediate effect

and says he will now take time to consider his future.

A Christian woman who was spared a death sentence in Sudan

after refusing to convert to Islam has said she plans to one day return

Mariam Ibrahim gave birth to a daughter while in prison.

She is currently in the United States seeking asylum.

Last night, she received an award for her courage at a conservative

George Clooney, the actor famous for his bachelor

lifestyle, has finally tied the knot with his British fiancee.

The Hollywood star's agent has confirmed that he has married

the human rights lawyer Amal Alamuddin in a ceremony

Celebrity guests at the wedding included the model Cindy

I'll be back with the headlines just before ten o'clock.

I think it is fair to say that if David Cameron had the chance, he

would not have chosen the Sunday Telegraph to lead on. And the paper

responsible for the sex story is the Sunday Mirror. If you want to know

more, don't ask. The Sunday times has the same story, but also, the

much more important story - bombing jihadis is futile, says top general,

and that is General Richards. The Observer - UKIP defection causing

Tory chaos. Perhaps a little bit over the top, but nonetheless. A

conjugated one in the Independent on Sunday - how do we get out? As

palmist, Ian Birrell and Shami Chakrabarti join us now. Can you get

us started with the air strikes story? I do think this is really

important. It is the front page of the Sunday times, but inside, we

have an interview which has been conducted by the Great War

correspondent Christina Lambert, with General Lord Richards, who was

the head of the military. He has been involved in every major

conflict that Britain has been engaged in for many years. His

interview suggests an element of naivete, I think, on the part of our

parliamentarians, for thinking that this can be just a few air strikes,

and perhaps dealt with fairly clinically and fairly quickly. We

will not beat them with air strikes, he says. This is not just a

terrorist organisation, this is not just a few drones in Pakistan, this

is serious war, you need boots on the ground, it is a long-term

commitment to. And I would like to hear what the Prime Minister says

about this. One of the points he is making is that you cannot simply

fight the war in one country. It is a border which ISIL refuses to

recognise, so they just move over into Syria. And you have chosen the

Observer? This is one of the issues - how will it work, is it just a

political gesture, really, Britain being there? It is just six planes,

fewer than Denmark. There is a fig leaf element to it. I feel

conflicted about it. I was in Kurdistan at the time the Americans

started bombing. There was no doubt that ISIS was doing very well, the

Peshmerga were already in a very weak state, and the bombings shored

up their defences. Equally, it is very hard to see where this goes.

You will not defeat them like this. There is all sorts of politics going

on on the ground. Are we just getting pulled into a mess in the

region once again? It was a very good debate in the House of Commons,

but it is very much, are we sure what we are doing next, that is the

toll of the papers, is that fair to say? Yes, I think everyone is saying

the same thing, which is, what is the strategy? It is the ethical

difficulty, but also the practical difficulty - are we going to make

things better or worse? This one shows the regional issues. And there

is this mess over foreign policy, that we are now in bed with all

sorts of partners, Saudi Arabia, which beheads people for sorcery,

unlike ISIS, which beheads foreign journalists, and which has been

exporting an extreme form of Islam all over the world. We are in bed

with Qatar, which has been backing Islamists in Libya. And really, we

are helping President Assad with this. We are in bed with Egypt,

backing a ruler who is worse than the guy whose downfall we supported.

It is a complete mess. You wonder what the Foreign Office has been

doing all of this time. Their job is to give clear priorities to number

10 Downing Street. Yet again, I find myself, yes, I am torn about the

conflict, but I also feel that human rights abuses are always a

justification for military intervention over there, but never

refugee protection over here, when they turn up on our doorstep. And

Syria, seeing those refugees pouring over the border, and how many has

Britain taken? It was 43 at the end of June, for all our fine talk. And

this is not what you expect from the Sunday Telegraph on the first day of

the Conservative Party conference. Did somebody tweak something about,

to lose one minister is unfortunate, but to lose two is reckless?! I

think thousands of people tweeted that! Of course, Mark Reckless has

rather flamboyantly defected to UKIP. Whether this is a real

crisis... A minister behaves inappropriately on the internet, is

that really a party scandal, I do not understand? It is just a ripple

at the start of the Tory party conference. But it is not the

serious issue, which is the split in the party, and the debate over what

to do about UKIP. It is like the John Major government, something is

not right, the party is splintering? It does feel a bit familiar, to

those of us of a certain age. Speaking of which, a young human

rights lawyer is apparently marrying a middle-aged actor. And this is

dominating lots of newspapers, as you can imagine. But more seriously,

I know that you have heard George Clooney on your programme before, so

you have more of a sense of the man. I do not know what people would

think of this coverage. George Clooney is a highly serious guy,

from a journalistic background. Beautiful photographs from Venice.

There are not many stories this morning to cheer us up, and I guess

this is one of them. I am not sure what he would think about the amount

of coverage he is getting this morning. On the other hand, if you

closed down Venice and invited Matt Damon and all your mates, then you

will get a lot of coverage. Moving swiftly on, David Davies, who fought

David Cameron for the leadership, has produced a withering, full on

attack on modernisation generally, saying it has been a disaster. It is

very interesting, this piece. It is really his most full-blooded attack

on modernisation. In it, he is giving David Cameron and the Tory

party both barrels. They are saying that it was all wrong what they

did, it has not worked etc. I would argue it is a misinformed piece,

because he says the voters see David Cameron as being to the left of

them, whereas actually, Conservative voters see him as being to the right

of them, as surveys have shown. The problem I would argue is that

modernisation did not go nearly far enough, and the problem is that they

have gone too far on to UKIP territory. You were a speech writer

for David Cameron, way back in the day that he was in opposition. But

in terms of votes, the Conservative Party have not been doing very well,

and in terms of the struck shall make up of the party, it is

splintering? I think the problem is that they have shifted too much on

to UKIP territory. UKIP is not really about Europe, it is not

really about immigration, it is about a disconnect. And when you

coming to office saying one thing, and then you shift ground

substantially on issues like Europe etc, then it gives voters one more

cause for concern, and actually, it helps UKIP. I would argue that by

making these shifts and these lurches, it is not helping. Again

and again, people say they want authenticity in politics. They want

the politician, whether they agree with them or not, to stick to his or

her guns. Let's move onto another story,

vloggers, who are storming up the book charts. I don't think you

should be grumpy about this. This is a phenomenon about video bloggers,

aspiring journalists effectively, doing video blogs aspired to by

thousands, sometimes millions of people. And slightly more

libertarian, less consensual when it comes to politics. I think that's

right, but they are speaking about all sorts of things their audience

are interested in. I don't know what their consensus is on the war for

example. I think it is nice, because it is about democratising, more

people getting a voice. Yes, but it seems that some of them are actually

taking this very seriously and making a go of it commercially. And

now producing books going up the book charts. There was once a

well-known philosopher, called John Stuart Mill, and he has now been

scooped by yourself. I have written a book about working at Limited

since 9/11, since the beginning of the war on terror, we now seem to be

in the war on terror two. Ian, you have just come back, we may think

Britain is in a difficult state, from a country in a really difficult

state, from Liberia suffering with Ebola. Yes, I noticed you moved away

from the! Everybody gets checked for their temperature when they go into

supermarkets, they are not touching each other. One man told me he had

not touched his children for three months because they are so scared of

transmitting the disease. It is totally out of control despite best

efforts. The numbers... More and more people are being infected.

Reading your report, it reminds me of Daniel Defoe's London In The

Plague Year. The worst-case scenario predicts one in ten people in

Liberia could be hit with this disease. It is appalling what is

going on and I don't think the world has begun to get to grips with it,

or assist. There is talk of the economy collapsing, and even

conflict being restarted because of the chaos engendered by this. Very

alarming. Shami it is shocking how quickly Scotland has dropped off the

front pages after the no vote. Yes, it is Iraq again this week, I think

we need to have a slightly longer attention span if we can. I am going

to start paying more attention to this paper in the future, the

Scotland on Sunday. Inside, on pages six and seven, we have photographs

of the three likely leaders of the main parties in Scotland, all women,

and a suggestion that a group of MSP 's are uniting around the idea that

in the new settlement, the reformed settlement, there should be 50-50

men and women in the Scottish Parliament. I think this could be

really exciting and it could be a model that people get excited about

in England and elsewhere. Absolutely. Before we go, this is a

policy conference as well, and the big announcement this morning is

about apprentices and cutting welfare benefits to pay for them.

David Cameron talks about this in an interview he did with the Sunday

Times, in which he also talks about Scotland. He said he would have

resigned if they won the vote. He says that now! He is talking about

benefits and trying to cap them, and shift some of that money towards

apprenticeships. It is interesting that the issues we are hearing under

the new look Tory party is immigration and benefits, both of

which are seemingly popular with the public. So you think it is moving to

the right? No, it has moved to the right and that is seen in voters'

perceptions of the party and the Prime Minister. It is not that the

issues themselves may be unpopular, it is that when you talk about them

to the exclusion of other issues, the voters think you are less

compassionate. The language on benefits has been very hard line.

Ian Birrell and Shami Chakrabarti, thank you.

We're promised a return of summer this week, and it's a lovely bright

morning here in Birmingham. With the picture around the country, over to

Sarah Keith-Lucas in the weather studio.

Much of September has felt more like some of September has felt more like

summer than autumn. Not everywhere will be staying dry, but these

weather fronts will only be pushing slowly south. In Gleneagles and the

final day of the Ryder Cup, there will be a south-westerly breeze but

it will be remaining predominantly dry. Across England and Wales, dry

and fine, plenty of decent spells of sunshine to be enjoyed for the rest

of the day, lifting temperatures nicely to around 24 degrees in

London. As we had through this evening and overnight, for Scotland

and Northern Ireland it remains fairly cloudy with a few outbreaks

of rain. There could be dense fog patches forming as we had through

the early hours of Monday morning. Frost free overnight. During the day

we still have the mist and fog around in the morning, that should

clear away pretty quickly, and it will be a day of sunny spells but

there could be some isolated heavy showers. Temperatures up to 21

degrees, so looking pretty pleasant for the next few days and in fact

the week ahead. After the former Conservative

backbencher Douglas Carswell rather sensationally defected to UKIP last

month, there were rumours And yesterday Nigel Farage pulled

another Tory rabbit out of his The big reveal took place at UKIP's

conference in Doncaster, where the party also discussed new

policy ideas, although not all of them survived the weekend,

as you'll see in a moment. But when I spoke to the UKIP leader

last night, I began by asking him if We will have to see, won't we? There

is a great deal of disenchantment with the Conservative Party, but

don't underestimate the fact there are Labour backbenchers thinking

about this as well. Are you saying therefore that you expect defections

from the Labour Party and more defections from the Conservative

Party? I'm saying there is a widespread feeling that the

political leaderships of Labour, Lib Dem and Conservative are becoming so

hopelessly out of touch with opinions in MPs' constituencies that

it wouldn't surprise me if we saw more defections. I was looking at

Mark Reckless's speech, and he said the country was overregulated and

overtaxed. In that context I would like to ask you about the proposal

of yours to put 25% VAT on a range of what you call luxury goods. Have

you worked out how this will be done? I am personally very happy to

give freedom to our spokesmen and women to float ideas but while I am

leader that will not be in our manifesto. This is the fastest

U-turn we have heard. Is that no longer a policy? It was put forward

as something that should be investigated. What was put forward

as a policy was the idea that no tax should be put on the minimum wage.

What was put forward was the idea that nurses, experienced nurses, now

paying 40p tax is ridiculous and they should be taken out of it. The

much touted 25p luxury VAT is dead as far as you are concerned? Yes, it

was a discussion point yesterday, it isn't going to happen. You made a

great point of saying UKIP now turned its tanks in both directions,

on Labour and the Conservatives, that means you have to win this

forthcoming by-election to show that is more than just words. If we did

win the Hayward and Middleton by-election you would then say we

are seeing one of the biggest swings in post-1945 politics in this

country. We start this election a long way behind but I am confident

we will give the Labour Party a run for their money. If this is a

populist revolution of the kind you were describing, you compared it

with what is happening in Scotland, then we should seek an earthquake

happening up their too? I don't know, neither do you. Something

remarkable is happening in British politics but I am not going to stand

here predicting we will win that by-election, but I will predict we

will give Labour a run for their money. You said yourself if you were

a young guy in Spain or Portugal, you would probably come here, but

what do say too many big businesses that say Britain has big growth,

partly based on a huge supply of skilled, hard-working, educated and

dedicated people coming to work here and that by closing the door you

imperil our growth? The point we are making and the point that is

resonating with voters in a big way across this country is that you

cannot choose the numbers of people coming to the country all the while

you are members of the European Union, and all the while the British

passport is extended to nearly half a billion people. I am still unclear

as to whether your hostility is cultural or economic. If you are

persuaded that Britain's economic growth at the moment required a high

level of immigration than you would like, would you be in favour of it

all would you still say it is against the interests of

British-born workers and therefore I want to stop immigration? The duty

of government is to look after the country and its people. I think the

integrity of our communities, our society, the opportunity we give

young people to get on, the opportunity we give working age

people to earn a decent living, I think they matter more than a couple

of peps up on GDP figures over the next decade. There are some things

in life that are more important than just money. Can I ask you about your

hostility to what is going on at the moment over the skies of Iraq and

Syria. What is your message to the RAF pilots now the decision has been

taken? You say we are hostile and by asking the question in that way you

are saying somehow there is an aggression about UKIP and there

isn't. I am not going to be drawn in to appearing disloyal towards the

British services. But there are some wars that are sensible and some are

not, and in the last 15 years we have engaged in a series of wars

that have not been in our national interests and have left our

countries that we were supposed to be helping in a worse condition. So,

to be absolutely clear, you are saying there are just wars and

unjust wars, do you regard this as on just? I don't believe they have

thought about the endgame of this. I don't think a war can be won by

bombing alone. If we are serious, we need a regional approach, several

governments involved, lots of boots on the ground provided by Arab

states and African states, and if we were serious about it, I would not

object to the British taking part and offering expertise. What was

proposed in the House of Commons does not pass for me any of those

tests. Thank you for joining us. Nick Cave is many things, a, a poet

and novelist, now the acclaimed star of a that focuses on the Bad Seeds

front man and his journey. 20,000 Days On Earth gets its title from

the life span of Nick Cave so far. He is 57 and a cultural icon. The

film features Ray Winstone and Kylie Minogue in cameo parts. When we met

up, Nick Cave gave me his take on the bittersweet nature of telling

stories through songs. It is a curse, to be honest, the whole

narrative songwriting thing. It is not the kind of songs I listen to or

that I like to listen to. I am much more inclined to listen to music

that seems to be ripped out of the hat in some way. James Brown or

something like that. With a yeah and a whoa. There is nothing worse than

having to listen to a story. # Look at me now... We see you in

the film with your children, eating pizza in front of the television,

with your wife. You have clearly got a very good marriage, but in some

respects, it is more of a kind of humdrum, ordinary experience, and

the kind of moralistic darkness which some of the would suggest. The

performance of the songs is possibly like that, but what the songs are

about is actually something more humane, or more human. In the world

of your songs, it is more important that there is a devil, and that

there is sin, and there is judgment and forgiveness, and that there is a

God. That sounds a little harsh! I think the songs are a little more

subtle than that these days, to be honest. For sure, there is a kind of

old Testament rancour about some of the earlier stuff, but I think these

days, it is a little more... In recent years, you have split your

songwriting and performing personality into two bands, The Bad

Seeds, and the other one. In the film, we see you with many of

your celebrity friends - are you playing a game with the audience at

that point, talking about your glamorous life? I do not think I am

hanging out with my celebrity friends. First of all, I do not hang

out in that way with celebrities. But there are moments when they

appear, magically, in the car with me. It is Ray Winstone and Kylie

Minogue. You were like this kind of missed that rolled in, because I

knew about you, and I had heard about your desire to do this song.

And then I saw you perform live with The Bad Seeds, and it was, like, and

the performance was just electrifying, and your body

language, you were like this, like a tree. If the younger and Nick cave

was looking at the Nick Cave of today, he might say, you are living

a much more comfortable life than I would have expected, and a much

happier life? Well, I was always pretty happy. Were you?! Yes! There

is a kind of myth which exists around a particular lifestyle,

meaning you have to be a particular character. I do not think that is

true. To be honest, I would not have a clue what the younger Nick Cave

would think about the older one. You have been going into film music

more, you have created the other group, I am just wondering, what

extent will you think, I need to tear everything up again? I think as

soon as something becomes... I am very suspicious about success. The

last record did really well, it was a really good record, I think, on

many different levels, but certainly, we feel it is a really

strong record. It is a really strong Bad Seeds record. And I immediately

start getting nervous around that. That it is impossible to top it, or

because you are getting smug about it? It is so easy to sit back and

wide that for a while. There is a lot of discussion of other artists

in the film - of all of the great recording artists, Jerry Lee Lewis,

Nina Simone, who is the person who you would like to wake up in the

middle of their concert? Alvis. He is still the ultimate hero? Yes.

That is who I always wanted to be. Elvis Presley, without the quiff!

Nick Cave, talking about his film 20,000 Days On Earth.

And by my calculation, with just over 200 days till his own

date with destiny at the next general election, I?m joined now by

General Richards, like many people in the debate this week, have picked

up on the fact that you cannot defeat ISIL, or whatever we call

them, without pushing into Syria. It cannot just be done in Iraq alone,

that is true, isn't it? It is true. We believe you do need troops on the

ground, but they should be Iraqi troops, they should be Kurdish

troops. We are part of a large, international coalition to degrade

and Alton of the destroy this organisation, but it cannot be done

unless the countries where this organisation has grown up play their

part in destroying it. You told the House of Commons to things, you said

you would not go into Syria without another motion, but you also said

that you reserved the right to order attacks if there was some terrible

humanitarian disaster which needed to be dealt with. If I still pushed

into Syria, we could very quickly see a humanitarian crisis, so, is it

the case that you could order the RAF into Syria without another

vote? The point I was making applied to anywhere in the world. If as

Prime Minister I feel there is a humanitarian disaster about to

happen, which Britain, alone or with partners, could do something to a

third, then it would be right to order that before going to the House

of Commons, because there would not be time. Likewise, if there is some

unique British interest, some hostage situation, where you had to

order action very quickly, I would be prepared to do that first and

explain to the House of Commons afterwards. I was trying to say to

the House of Commons that it is important that this convention which

has grown up about a vote before premeditated action, I believe that

is right, but it does not necessarily mean that a government

cannot act if there is an urgent situation. You have said a big

crisis might emerge, this could happen tomorrow or next week in

Syria... I am not trying to dodge happen tomorrow or next week in

your question. If something happened anywhere in the world, that there

was a need for urgent action to prevent a humanitarian crisis, or to

protect a unique British interest, I prevent a humanitarian crisis, or to

would be prepared to take action and explain afterwards. Now, one of the

other things which was talked about, again in the General Richards

interview, and also in the House of Commons, is

interview, and also in the House of an army, they do not have barracks,

they do not have columns of tanks, they sit inside the population,

hiding themselves among civilians quite deliberately. Therefore an air

campaign is bound to kill lots of civilians by accident. I do not

accept that. There have been occasions when ISIL are out in the

open, threatening Christian communities, Yazidi communities,

other Muslim communities, and they can be struck and stops, which is

exactly what has happened close to where the Kurdish lines are, and

elsewhere. But if what you are saying is, we need, if you like, an

uprising of the Sunni tribes, rejecting these extremists, saying,

we want to be part of a democratic Iraq, then yes, of course, we do

need that. Our strategy is not some simplistic, dropped a bomb from

40,000ft, and think you can solve the problem - it isn't. This is one

part of a comprehensive strategy to build an Iraq which has a

democratic, inclusive government for everyone, and in time, Syria needs

exactly the same thing. There are three possible armies involved on

the ground, the Peshmerga, defending their own territory in Kurdistan,

the Iraqi army, who have been frankly pretty useless so far and

have run away most of the time, and there is the Free Syrian Army,

which, as George Galloway said, barely exists. So who will these

boots on the ground actually be? In Iraq and Syria, we need to build up

the forces which are moderate, democratic and thoroughly stick. In

Iraq we need an Iraqi government and Iraqi forces which represents the

whole country. -- and thoroughly stick. In Syria, we need the

legitimate forces in Syria. But it is going to take time for them to be

built up as a counterpoint to the regime. But what is required in

Syria. Our policy is not contradictory. The same thing is

needed in Syria is in Iraq, which is a government which can represent all

of the people. You need a transition in Syria from the brutal dictator

Assad, whose action has helped to build up ISIL, and you need to

replace it with a government which camera present all of its people.

But the Army in Syria which can defeat ISIL, the only organised army

really left standing is Assad's army, so are we on the point of

having to do a deal with the devil, as it were? No, we are not. Assad is

part of the problem, not the solution. His brutality against his

own people's one of the things which has been a massive recruiting

sergeant for ISIL. We need in Syria to build up the legitimate

opposition, to have a transition in Syria from Assad to a new

government, which can represent all of the people. Of course, that has

to include Alawites, even prominent ones, so that Alawite, Sunni, all

people's in Syria can feel they are part of the government. A missile

can kill terrorists, but it is good governments which can kill -- good

governments which can kill terrorism - that is our policy. What about the

Iraqi army, we are giving them lots of new kit and advice, are there not

already British boots on the ground? We already have, whether it

is in Baghdad or in the Kurdish regional authority, we have people

who are helping and advising and assisting, not in huge numbers. But

if we are trying to build up these forces, then yes, of course, we need

to help them. What I am not having is some British invading army of

combat troops on the ground. We could have for instance special

forces trying to get hostages out of terrible situations. We never

comment on special forces. The hostage situation is an absolutely

tragic one and we should do everything we can to help, and I

lead those efforts personally. Your critics say, it starts with a power,

without fivers, and then, like Vietnam, it escalates, you get

sucked in. You do not know how deeply we are going to get drawn in.

In a way, that is an argument for never doing anything. When you face

a situation with psychopathic, terrorist killers who have already

brutally beheaded one of our own citizens, who have already launched

and tried to execute plots in our own country to kill and maim

innocent people, we can either stand back from all of this, as Galloway

and others would say, and say, this is too complicated, or we take the

correct decision, to say, let's have a full, comprehensive strategy,

let's be prepared to play our role to make sure these people cannot do

us harm. Coming back to the border question, not George Galloway, but

General Richards again and in cannot possibly defeat ices by only

attacking them in Iraq. How the hell can you win the war when most of

your enemy can end up in a country you cannot get involved in? I have a

lot of sympathy for that view, which is why we support what the Americans

and the five Arab nations have done in Syria. We have a Syrian strategy,

which is to build up the Syrian National Coalition to build up a

political transition in Syria. But I wanted to take to the House of

Commons a proposal that I could achieve a consensus on. Let's turn

to the Conservative Party conference - did you have any idea that Mark

Reckless was about to do what he has just done? Not specifically. But he

has always been someone who... He very rarely votes for the

government. He has made his views known. These things are frustrating,

and frankly, they are counter-productive and rather

senseless. If you want to have a European referendum, if you want to

have immigration control, if you want to get the deficit down and you

want to build a stronger Britain, there is only one option, which is

to have a Conservative government after the next election. The choice

is really between that government, and we have a track record now of

getting the deficit down, getting people into jobs, or Ed Miliband in

number 10 Downing Street, with no plan for the deficit, no leadership

for our country, no way to get the economy going. The deficit going up.

That is the choice. So his act is senseless and counter-productive.

But we have to get on with the job of this week, which is setting out

our plans. Douglas Carswell, who was a great supporter of yours, why do

you think you are losing these kind of people, they say it is because

you are not a proper Conservative in the end? I disagree with that. But

in the end, it is counter-productive. Both of these

people are people who, unlike me, they want to leave the European

Union, no matter what. I do not agree with that. I think we should

have a real go at reform, to get a better deal for Britain. But we have

this clear promise on an in-out referendum by the end of 2017. So

even if you do not agree with my be negotiation strategy, I am the only

Prime Minister who will give you a chance to have a vote on staying in

or getting out of the European Union. Turning to that, we have

spoken about this before, but it is clear at the moment that the big

issue is the free movement of people into this country from the rest of

Europe, that is what is setting the UKIP people alike, and a lot of your

own people are concerned about it. Is that at the heart of your be

negotiation policy, ending the open frontier?

Out Immigration will be the heart of my renegotiation strategy. There

will be a whole series of changes, at the heart of this, the idea that

people... Of course there is a right to go and work in other European

countries but it is not an unqualified right. You should not be

able to move for benefits. When new countries join the European Union,

you should be able to say to them that their people cannot work in our

country unless their economy is at a similar level to ours. But you

cannot do anything about the free movement of people within the EU?

That is one of the things I think that worries people and it concerns

me. The right to go and work in France or Spain, or Spanish people

to come and do a job that is advertised here, that is one thing

but it is a different thing to go and claim benefits, even to work in

Britain, to send your benefits home to your families that stay in your

home countries, those things need to be addressed. The bigger point is

that there is only one way these things can get addressed. If Ed

Miliband is in Downing Street, none of these things will happen. If I am

Prime Minister, these things will happen and there will be an in-out

referendum. Are you determined we will stay within the EU? I am

determined to do the right thing for Britain. What I believe is right for

Britain is to seek reform, get reform and get Britain to vote to

stay in a reformed European Union. That is my plan, but if people don't

like that plan, the only way they get to vote to get out of the EU is

if I am Prime Minister. I think people want to know what is your

plan. Also they want to know what is your base position. If you

renegotiate and you don't get everything you want, you say to the

British people, OK we should leave Europe, we didn't get we want --

what we want. If you are determined to stay in Europe, it is much harder

to get that negotiation successfully. In a negotiation you

should set out what you want to achieve, and I want the other

countries in Europe to see that there is a plan here, that with

reform can end in a reformed relationship with Britain and

Britain staying in. I want them to see that that is the goal. If I

don't achieve that, it will be for the British public to decide whether

to stay in or get out. Are there any circumstances under which you say to

the British people that I, David Cameron, recommend we leave the EU?

If I thought it wasn't in Britain's interests to be in the European

Union, I wouldn't want us to be in it. I do this job because I love my

country, I care passionately about its future and I wanted to be a

strong, proud, self-governing, independent nation. Yes, working

with other countries, trade and cooperation, that is what drives...

If you don't get what you want, you say to the British people it is time

to go? I am saying we will get what we want and I think the British

public wants someone who is determined to deliver for them a

better future in Europe, but in the end they decide. Let's move onto

something else you said recently which was right at the end of the

Scottish vote, you said English devolution should happen at the same

pace as and in tandem with Scottish devolution, do you still believe

that? Yes, we will keep our vows to the people of Scotland that they

will have a stronger Scottish parliament with stronger powers over

taxation, welfare and spending. That will happen and the agreement we set

out, it wasn't even a new departure for the Conservative Party because

we had already signed up to plans for that. I am saying that with a

Conservative government, you don't just get Scottish devolution, you

get English votes for English laws, the English question and said so

that MPs in Wales and Northern Ireland and England get these rights

in the way the Scots have. The Labour Party don't agree with quite

a lot of that, other parties have different views as well, it is a

complicated thing to deliver in a few months so a lot of people in

Scotland are saying that this solemn promise will not be delivered

because you and Ed Miliband will fallout and between you and will not

be delivered. We may well fallout over this issue because I don't

think Labour have an answer to this question. The Conservatives do have

an answer, it was an answer, it was in our 2001 manifesto, 2005

manifesto and our last manifesto. You can have a choice - Ed Miliband

and Scottish devolution and nothing for the English, or David Cameron

and a proper answer to the English question. Whatever the arguments

going on in London about English parliaments and English votes for

English laws, however that is going, the Scots will get the

devolution promise under all circumstances? Yes. Do you now

favour an English parliament as such and where would it sit? I don't,

because I think the last thing this country wants is another expensive

parliament building with another expensive group of politicians. I

think it is perfectly possible to make changes in the Westminster

parliament so that when issues that are exclusively about England or

England and Wales are addressed, we can find voting arrangements to

reflect that. We need to do that not just in terms of what happens with

English laws but if the Scots are going to have the right to set

income tax rates, you need arrangements in the UK Parliament in

a Westminster parliament to make sure there is fairness there as

well. These plans are being worked on by William Hague. Either there

will be an outbreak of consent across the parties, I doubt it, I

suspect it will be the Conservative Party putting forward a balanced

programme of devolution at the next election, and when we win our

majority we will put that into place in tandem. Your big announcement is

about using money from welfare cuts to boost the number of

apprenticeships. You are cutting the welfare cap to ?23,000, what

evidence do you have that lots of families will be able to cope with

?3000 less? We have found the welfare cap is a policy that worked

very well. When we said we were going to Cap families at ?26,000,

people said this would cause chaos, but what has actually happened is a

lot of those families have gone into work, found a job, and it has helped

them with their lives. I think the evidence is that the cap is too

loose, particularly in some parts of the country. It will mean more

families getting into work. The plan we have for Britain is to spend less

on welfare and more on helping people get into work. So we are

going to use that money to pay for 3 million apprenticeships. After the

fall years, we have seen our economy turned round. -- after the four

years. We have best growth of any country in the west, but now we need

to give every family in this country the security and the peace of mind

they want. With a Conservative government they will get the chance

of a good job, their taxes will come down, they will get a good school

place for their children. Are we moving towards a situation where

nobody under the age of 21 gets any kind of benefits? It is not quite as

simple as that, but I want us to effectively abolish youth

unemployment. I want to end the idea that aged 18 you can leave school,

stay at home and claim housing benefit. We should be saying that

you should be earning all learning. If you need to have benefits there

will be an allowance, otherwise... 48% of these people have children so

my question to you is, for the best possible motive is no doubt, but are

you going to put a large section of the population into poverty? This is

about single people aged 18 to 21, at the moment they can leave home,

sign-on, get housing benefit and start a life of dependency. We are

saying save that money, make sure that after six months every one of

those young people has to be in a job or training and use the savings

to provide 3 million apprentices. Talking about immigration earlier,

if you want to solve that problem, the other side of the coin is

education and welfare. We need an education system that educates young

people so they can take the jobs that are becoming available and we

need a welfare system that prioritises work. For now, thank you

very much. The news. The MoD has confirmed that

RAF Tornadoes are continuing to fly over Iraq,

and gather important intelligence Yesterday two Tornado jets carried

out armed reconnaissance operations The Pentagon says US jets have made

strikes on the Syrian city of Raqqa as well as IS positions

near the Turkish border. Speaking on this programme, the

Prime Minister said air strikes were not intended as a simplistic

solution to the crisis in Iraq but were part of the compounds of

strategy to build a democratic country. David Cameron said he had

sympathy with the view that it was also necessary to take action

against Islamic State forces in Syria.

The next news is on BBC1 at One o'clock.

First, a look at what's coming up immediately after this programme.

Does an art show of black actors in chains mean racism? And Henry

Winkler gives us a lesson on how to be called.

And we all need that. The Prime Minister is still with me. We must

ask you about when you were overheard talking about the Queen

pairing with pleasure. Presumably she was furious what were you

thinking of? One of those moments when you look back and kick yourself

very hard. It was not a conversation I should have hard, even though it

was a private conversation, I am extremely sorry and embarrassed

about it. I have made my apologies and I think I will probably be

making some more. Are you ashamed about it? I am very sorry. Have you

repaired things with the Palace? I am not going to discuss that

conversation even with you. You said recently you were delighted to see

Boris on his way back to the pitch, if the team wins would you like him

back in the Cabinet as well? Of course but he has got to finish his

term as Mayor of London and that is what he wants to do. Once he has

finished that, he is a star, and as I have always said, I want to have

the stars in the team. You come to this conference with a couple of

defections, a sex scandal, and people are muttering the final years

of John Major. How does that make you feel? I have to admit, it has

not been an ideal start but the truth is that these things,

frustrating as they are, they don't change the fundamental choice of the

election, which is continuing with a long-term economic plan, or do you

want to lurch off with Ed Miliband with no plan, no leadership, no

ideas about the economy, just more borrowing and taxes. That is the

choice. In this job you wake up and you find all sorts of things have

patterned -- happened in your own party, but does it change the

fundamentals of what the team are doing? It doesn't. Thank you for

joining us. We're almost out

of time this morning. Join us again at the same time next

week when I'll be talking to the Deputy Prime Minister,

Nick Clegg, ahead of the Liberal Earlier, we heard Nick Cave's

thoughts on song writing so here's the man himself performing

in London a while ago. This is his most famous hit,

Into My Arms. # Into my arms, O Lord