09/10/2016 The Andrew Marr Show

This week's crash in the value of sterling was a complicated story.

It wasn't all down to Brexit, but it was a salutary warning

of what might happen if the government gets this

After some euphoria at last week's Tory party conference,

we're back to the real world of hard decisions and tough choices.

And not just the real world but a dangerous world too.

I'll be joined by the Defence Secretary Michael Fallon.

So far, we have very little idea about Labour's plans for Brexit.

I'm joined by Keir Starmer, the party's new spokesman

Also looking back on nearly half a century in politics,

I've been talking to one of the Tory party's last unabashed

The decisions this government makes about what is the relationship with

the rest of the world politically and economically will make a huge

difference to our children and grandchildren.

Joining me to sift through the Sunday papers this morning,

the Conservative commentator and expert in American

politics, Tim Montgomerie, the journalist Kate Andrews,

an observer of the US Republican party, and after a rollercoaster

week on the currency markets, Stephanie Flanders from JP

If the news makes you feel a little blue, we'll lift your spirits

at the end of the show with Michael Kiwanuka.

That's all after after the news read this morning by Ben Thompson.

Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton are making final preparations

for what is likely to be one of the most acrimonious US

Mr Trump has rejected calls to quit the race over video footage

in which he was heard making lewd and offensive remarks about women.

But he's under severe pressure going into tonight's TV showdown.

Senior Republicans, including former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice,

Donald Trump at his landmark Trump Towers building

in New York yesterday faced a new reality.

The 11-year-old video released over the weekend has caused widespread

shock and outrage across America, and has plunged the Republican

On the tape, made as part of a TV promotion, a live microphone picks

up unguarded, obscene comments made by Donald Trump about women.

I said it, I was wrong on and I apologise.

His video apology did little to help, amid calls for him

But condemnation has come from the highest ranks

of the Republican party, including his running mate who called

More than a dozen Republican senators say they will not

support him, including former candidate John McCain.

Republicans are feeling the backlash on the campaign trail.

There is a bit of an elephant in the room.

Tonight in St Louis, the second presidential debate takes place.

America may not have seen reality TV quite like this before.

Haiti is beginning three days of national mourning

after Hurricane Matthew killed more than 900 people.The first cases

of cholera have been confirmed and aid workers are warning more

Overwhelmed by water and now by injuries,

hospitals in Haiti's hurricane hit south-west are

People hurt during the storm are being treated, but with medical

care already an issue before the disaster,

it is proving to be a major challenge for the country to cope.

The number of dead is now close to 900 and the figure

The government have called for three days of official mourning,

but the death toll is likely to keep increasing.

People are crying and praying, not only for the dead,

Yesterday, we registered 438 dead in my region.

We have 25 people suffering from cholera.

We have a lot of wounded people, and the situation is dire.

Without clean water, concerns are growing

Sewage getting into drinking water supplies is already seeing

new cases in affected areas, but people also need

It is estimated by the authorities in Haiti that some 350,000 people

need help and slowly aid is reaching some places.

The first consignment of supplies from the UK has arrived

in the south-west, ready to be distributed.

But, with many of the most affected areas still cut off,

the people of Haiti are hoping for more assistance so that this

natural disaster does not become a humanitarian one.

Hurricane Matthew has now brought heavy flooding to the historic town

One of the most powerful storms on record, Matthew continues

to sweep up the east coast of the United States.

At least ten people have died and nearly two million homes

A former Liberal Democrat peer has joined the Conservative party.

Baroness Manzoor, who resigned the Lib-Dem whip last month over

the party's policies on Europe, praised what she said

was Theresa May's clear leadership on Brexit.

A study by a group of leading defence analysts says that

Islamic State militants have lost more than a quarter of the territory

The report concludes that the group's area of control has

shrunk by just over a quarter since its peak in January 2015.

The militants' losses have included significant areas

near to the Turkish border, and a key airbase to

If we are interested in our own politics, there is a huge amount of

blowback from the Conservative Party conference and a general sense we

are moving toward a hard Brexit, not even trying to stay inside the

single market. The Observer is a 55 page of how and pain and outrage

from liberal London, including a full-page editorial. The Sunday

Times ways in with Steve Hilton, David Cameron's blue skies thinker,

on a ferocious attack on Theresa May over Brexit. He says it is being

done wrongly. The Sunday Telegraph and every paper has Donald Trump on

the front page. But their political story about us says there are fears

that a Cabinet split on Brexit is irreparable. If you are interested

in the outside world today, you really have to read the Sunday

Mirror, a splendid series of reports from the appalling stuff going on in

Aleppo and Syria. Very hard questions for the Russians and for

us on the sidelines. The Mail on Sunday has a story about lawyers

taking ?480 million of the NHS in medical compensation. Let's start

with you, you are a Republican. I have associated with the party for

most of my life pragmatically. It is heartbreaking as a pragmatic,

free-market, classical liberal. You sleep the party in economics is

where I was at and all of a sudden the celebrity comes along and

hijacked the party. Is this the end for Donald Trump. I am hesitant to

say, but it should be. This glorified of sexual assault should

be the end, but how many times have we thought it was going to be the

end with Donald Trump? He just keeps going. He has lost so many people,

Kaunda leaves arise, Robert De Niro, Arnold Schwarzenegger. Yes, he has

weighed in, he said when he became a citizen he associated with the

Republican Party. Those are the kind of people the party needs and Donald

Trump is throwing them away. We have always known these things about

Donald Trump. We have always known this, but we have all been guilty,

the media, the Americans, and the world at large, of enjoying watching

a celebrity run for the White House and now we're seeing the ugly side

of that. I said people have been jumping ship for a long time and you

have an interesting piece on the Internet. It is a variety of New

York Times writers and what they had done on this iPad edition is on one

side of the column they have listed various things he has said,

controversial remarks. On the other side they have listed Republicans

who have abandoned support for him. At the beginning you can see things

like his remarks about Mexicans bringing drugs and crime into the

country, they were rapists. Not many Republicans deserted him. As you go

down right until the current controversy you can finally see that

Republicans are abandoning him in large numbers, including John McCain

and Kaunda leaves arise. Just as you are saying a minute ago, those

Republicans are saying they are shocked at the latest revelations,

but they have not been paying attention. It has been obvious for a

long time that this man's views on race, security and women

were unacceptable and they were willing to turn a blind eye when

they thought he could win the presidency. Now finally his opinion

polls are turning side. Part of the dynamic here is that there were

people thinking, if he does win, because he keeps seeming to stay in

the race and has the support that people in Washington and the East

coast of America do not understand, you will be in his administration.

Some senior, greybeard figures did not want to be too far off the

record if they thought he was going to win. I am interested in the

technical question can he be stopped by the Republican Party? Can the

Republican old guard get together and pull him out? There is a thing

called rule nine which means three quarters of the Republican National

committee, the governing body, say he is guilty of moral squalor, he

can be disqualified. But it is so late and the trouble is people are

voting. Withdrawing your candidate win the race is already well under

way is impossible. The only thing I think that could cause him to quit

the race would be if his running mate ran away. Do you agree? Yes,

but it is even harder than that. The rules under rule nine suggest it is

up to their discretion. If they were to come in and try to overthrow

Donald trump it would raise questions about democratic

legitimacy and it would seem rigged. We know the establishment does not

like Donald Trump, so bid would be difficult. Tonight in the debate it

is his opportunity to show his heart, which suggests he is not

backing down yet. But we will not seek an apology tonight. If Donald

Trump cannot restrain himself, attacking Hillary Clinton and not

apologising, then Mike pence might think again. We would hope so, but I

think it is heartbreaking that this evening Donald Trump gets a

platform. Hillary Clinton scandals in her closet, but she will not be

challenged. It is not on the debate stays. It is a tough time. Let's

turn to our own matters, if we could. There is a big grass running

across a double page spread in the Sunday Times which tells the story

of the week on the currency markets. But the FTSE has done well and has

recovered. The FTSE 100 have a lot of their earnings abroad, in fact

80% of them, so whenever the pound falls, all of those foreign revenues

are worth a lot more, so it looks like the market is doing well. Often

we are asking politicians for more clarity and we say we do not like

them to fudge. But last week we had way too much clarity from Theresa

May and from so many speakers at the Conservative conference. They were

being very clear in putting the concerns of immigration and

political issues ahead of any conceivable economic cost. We had

technical factors and maybe automated trading... And there was a

flash crash. Yes they may be wanted to take away some of the things that

were propping up the pound, that uncertainty of whether we would do

Brexit, well, that has gone. Once those kinds of uncertainties go

away, the pound does not have much to hold it. Is the pound not

historically overvalued anyway and is not a good thing for us to have a

lower pound? If you had asked began ten days ago, I would have said yes

because we had a period when it was overvalued. If we were trying to

forge a completely different relationship with Europe, a lower

value for the pound goes along with that. But that means we lose money

and we are poorer as a nation because we import a lot of goods

which are more expensive. I think the IMF said last year that

we had just about the most overvalued currency in the world, by

20%. So although this is unsettling for business actually, a lower

pound, because of our huge deficit in trade, is useful. I think we can

get too mesmerised by the pound. What is troubling, certainly for

everybody meeting in Washington last week, was this sense that so many

decades of messages from the UK about openness, about the

flexibility of the economy and the desire to have skilled workers and

people coming from all over the world, the kind of rhetoric which

was coming out of the conference last week I think was just really

troubling for these senior business leaders who have had long-term

relationships with the UK. They do not recognise this country. Earlier

on, we said, too much clarity. Why that, we mean an ever clearer sense

that as we leave the EU, we will not even try to have access to the

single market without tariffs, because that is not really on offer.

I wonder, as a result of all of that, how the Treasury is thinking.

Philip Hammond appears to be briefing in one direction, as a

so-called soft Brexit man, against the Brexiteers on the other side. I

think Philip Hammond will emerge as one of the most important figures in

the government. Have a powerful Brexiteer contingent at the head of

government, and Mrs May herself of course not support leaving the

European Union, and seems to have all their zeal of the convert. But I

think what we saw was an incredibly important Tory conference last week,

not only, as Stephanie said, seeming to move towards what some people

call a hard Brexit I would call a clean Brexit, but actually perhaps

the most interventionist Conservative policy positioning we

have seen in a generation. And I think Philip Hammond is a more

traditional, free-market Conservative. He is very important

position where he needs to represent Conservatives the more libertarian

side. Later in the show, we will hear from Ken Clarke. Another of the

old Tory beasts, Lord Tebbit, has been weighing in on Teresa make or

interventionist approach? You he's worried in the Mail on Sunday here.

He was such a central figure in the Thatcher years, and he's worried

that everything could be undone. I think there is a need for more

infrastructure spending in Britain. I'm glad that post-Brexit, we are

not getting rid of workers' rights, as some on the left feared. But

there is a danger that the Conservative Party swings too far in

the direction of a big estate. At the start, I mentioned Stephen

Hilton, the famous David Cameron blue skies thinker, who has

absolutely torn into Theresa May? Yes. And he's absolutely right to do

so. I think this feeds into the argument about where the

Conservative Party is going. Yes, spending can be good, but maybe not

on HS2. As Steve Hilton points out today, these new policies coming

forward, presumably which have been approved by the government and civil

servants, are advocating that foreign workers might have to go on

lists which will be published. They will not be published, these are

private lists. He said they might as well tattoo them on the forearm!

Yes, and it is extreme language but I think he is right to point it up.

It is a case of open and closed Brexit. I think a lot of Brexiteers,

especially on the free-market side, thought there would be an

opportunity to expand into the rest of the world, and Theresa May

government is not suggesting that. But it is also that things which a

lot of people have been suggesting for many years, like maybe having a

looser fiscal policy, investing in skills, we're kind of reaching those

things in completely the wrong way, we are saying, we're going to need

the skills because we are going to keep out foreigners, and we're going

to inflict lots of economic damage on our economy, therefore we will

need a looser policy. It's just a shame that there is not this

consistent pitcher coming out of the key ministry, which is the Treasury.

We said at the beginning that we did not know what Labour's policy was.

And you have chosen a story from the Sunday Telegraph about a shadow,

shadow Cabinet...? I thought it was amazing that Jeremy Corbyn managed

to do his shadow cabinet reshuffle within 24 hours this time! It seems

that unity is still a problem for the Labour Party, with those staying

outside of his inner team forming their own organisation. And they're

going to meet to discuss how they will vote on issues like Heathrow,

and then they will tell Jeremy Corbyn, this is how they are going

to do it. I'm afraid he a Conservative supporter, I'm glad

that we have a Conservative government, but the lack of an

opposition at a moment when the so important is a real worry. And we

spoke about Americans having a horror show of reality TV this week,

but Stephanie, my jaw was on the carpet as I watched Ed Balls on

prescription tea in his banana coloured suit - extraordinary stuff!

I think we have all been mesmerised by the spectacle of him on Strictly.

And he's written his diary for the Mail on Sunday going back to when he

first agreed to going on the programme choice I think, going back

to the conversation we had before, it feels like this generation of

quite technocratic, not extremist politicians, who were trying to do

sensible things, has sort of disappeared choice people outside of

the UK are trying to find these sensible people that they talked to

in the past, on both parties, now they are on the reality shows, and

not actually in Parliament. Given the deficit I'm not sure everyone

would agree! Relative to what we now see! Thank you to all of you. It has

been a really interesting conversation. And so to the weather.

The bad news is that I have now used up my BBC quota of ridiculous

metaphors. So let's just see what's going on in the weather! I will send

you some more ad libs in the post, don't worry, Andrew! I'm ably

assisted by my band, ever-growing band of Weather Watchers. Peace on

the east coast, or is it one showers coming in in Hull. And you're not

alone. All the way from the Scottish borders right down the Eastern side

of England, showers are plenty through the course of the day and

into the afternoon George any good news? Yes. Western areas, fine and

sunny for the most part. Northern Ireland, you're underneath the

cloud, which might produce the odd spot of rain choice join the course

of the night, this nagging northerly breeze across eastern parts choice

under the clear skies, away from the east, it could get really cold in

the countryside. It is a bright for Monday choice but showers aplenty

across these eastern areas. The strength of the wind quite

noticeable, and there could be some hail in there. Temperatures, nothing

to write home about. And lots of us turning the heating on for the first

time. Ken Clarke is one of the big beasts

of British politics. The jazz-loving, cigar smoking

pro-European has just published his memoir looking back

on nearly half a century in parliament, and his roles

in the Cabinets of three When we met up earlier this week,

I asked him first about his origins as a scholarship boy from a working

class Nottinghamshire family, and his relationship

with his father. Well, my dad was just a great guy,

he was very popular, I'm sure he voted Labour in 1945,

he was probably voting Conservative by the end of his life but he just

followed my political moves. He was quite surprised

and pleased that I was suddenly My Communist grandfather was one

of the finest, old-fashioned type Uncle Joe Stalin had won the war,

was running a workers' paradise in the Soviet Union,

all the stories about him were just CIA propaganda and he tried

to get me to read the Daily Worker. But Instead you were

reading the Daily Mail. Instead I was reading my father's

Daily Mail. It is your father's influence

via the Daily Mail that might have No, I had all kinds of opinions

at the time - I was a student. Really by the end of the first year

of university, I had and I was pretty obviously

Conservative and was joining up with all my mates

who were still called... A whole generation of us got

obsessed with politics. Quite a lot of us wound

up in Conservative I am very interested in the way

people perceive you. Because you are a pro-European,

a lot of people think vaguely that Actually when you look

at your record in the Thatcher government, you were

pretty hard-core then. You had the really tough

business of the ambulance How do you now regard

Margaret Thatcher? Margaret Thatcher was the best

Prime Minister I worked for, it was the best government,

one of the few governments in the 20th century that altered

the political culture We decided we were going to make

a difference in the world and we were taken seriously

and we gave ourselves Some people suffered from that

but more people benefited and the combination of the Thatcher

revolution and joining the European Union gave us

a quality of life that we now The cabinet in those days

went on for three hours. Under Tony Blair and then under

David Cameron ordinary Cabinet government seems to have withered

a bit and you are quite It discussed the big issues and it

argued them through. The introduction of a little coterie

of close friends and the entourage of public relations advisers

and think-tank lads and all this kind of thing, believing

that they ran the whole government and the Cabinet's

job is to deliver it, Unfortunately we've now got a whole

generation of politicians who are in danger of

regarding this as the norm. I hope Theresa takes

at least a step or two back to doing things in a more

businesslike, collective fashion. Since you mentioned Theresa,

I was to read you back something which you say in the book really

about the British economy You say, "The recovery was fitful

and based on a rising The performance of our economy

internationally was feeble. We steadily acquired the biggest

current account deficit in our history, which would have

created a sensation 30 years before, when it was described

as the balance of payments I wonder as a former Chancellor,

where you think we are now and what we need to do

to restore the economy now. Well, I stand by that.

That does describe where we are now. We don't want to get carried away

by the idea of ever onwards and upwards and the problems

in 2006-2007 are all over, We do tend to live by wild

excitement about one day's figures, about some slightly unreliable

statistic, which at the moment is simply being interpreted

by either Brexiteers or Remainers, saying, "Look, it

shows we were right." Underlying it all, Philip Hammond

has got a real job on his hands. You are the most famously

pro-European Tory left standing. Michael Heseltine might be

a competitor. Is there not some part

of you that is quite pleased post- Brexit that we are in charge of more

of our economic future? We are not in charge of our economic

future at all until we've decided exactly how we are going to relate

to the globalised economy. What exactly are our trading

and economic relationships Of course, not only

with the continent, You are talking me into an awful lot

of gloom for a morning programme where we should

be cheering people up! Although I don't take too much

notice of short-term the reason the pound keeps zooming

south is that nobody has the faintest idea what exactly

we're going to put Of course the first thing is,

are we going to keep free access to the European market,

where almost half of our exports go So the idea we're in

control of events... The decisions this government makes

about what is our relationship with the rest of the world now,

politically and economically, will make a huge difference

to our children and grandchildren. You can't make great speeches saying

how marvellous free trade is, as Liam Fox does, and then say,

but actually we're completely Nor can you say that was decided

by the referendum, because I do not think that in the entire

referendum campaign, this rather esoteric subject

of what exactly are our trading relationships with markets

in the rest of the globe? We're talking in the aftermath

of the referendum and you say in the book it is the single

most disastrous decision by David Cameron, of any

British Prime Minister There was a big split inside

the Conservative Party, and he held To have one big, simple

question determining hundreds of other questions,

or raising them, about our future role in the world and reducing

it all to an argument Will it cost your household

money if we leave? Or - will millions of Turks be

arriving here to molest our I don't think that is the way

to put so much at risk. Looking back as a result of this

book, you are very vehement again and again about not

changing your views on Europe, not trimming towards the anti-EU

part of your party. That's why you were never Tory party

leader almost certainly. Do you look back and think,

maybe I overdid it just a bit? Maybe it would have been

better for me and for the Conservative Party

and the country if I had trimmed You are making me sound rather

dogmatic. I entered politics when I had

made my mind up what kind One of the first campaigns

I joined in was supporting Harold Macmillan's application

to join the European Union and I look as though my last

parliament was the one I just happen to think it was a very

good thing and I am glad I have had 50 years in politics

enjoying the benefits of it. You have had 50 years in politics

also partly because you had one of the famously happy marriages

at the top of politics. Your wife is no longer with us,

but how important was she in, Politics is a trade that drives

a lot of people bonkers. Gillian just kept me rooted

in the real world, in real life, in so far as any politician is ever

kept in touch with normality and a perfectly sophisticated

form of normality. She sacrificed for everybody

and her whole life was actually hugely influenced by my political

career, but she made sure it didn't And alongside Gilly and jazz every

single chapter in this book relates Without jazz how

would life have felt? Well, again it is another thing that

stops me thinking that politics is the bee all and end

all of everything. Jazz is the only music that

occasionally has moved me I like going to a night at the Opera

once in a while, but I don't take it seriously and I baffle my friends

because I do and did take seriously the days when I used to go

and listen to Miles Davis, which is the origin of the title

of the book. The former Director

of Public Prosecutions, Keir Starmer, is back on the Labour

front bench after having resigned from it earlier this year in protest

at Jeremy Corbyn's leadership. Up to now, the position

of the official opposition on just how Brexit should happen has

been strangely vague. So there's a lot for

Sir Keir to clear up. Does Labour accept that Brexit is

going to happen? Have you accepted it is now a fact and will happen?

The referendum was clear and has to be accepted and we cannot have a

rerun of the question put to the country earlier this year, but there

has to be a democratic grip of the process. At the moment what the

process the Prime Minister is trying to do is to do it without any

scrutiny in Parliament. The terms on which we negotiate have to be put to

a boat in the house. If we cannot get the opening terms right, we will

never get the right result. Before we come onto that, can I ask again,

do you also accept the reason millions of people voted to leave

the EU, millions of them Labour Party voters in the Midlands and the

North in particular, was because they wanted to see an end to

uncontrolled migration? Taking back control of migration has to happen.

We have to accept there is great concern about immigration and

freedom of movement. That has been evident in polls conducted in the

last few years. I went round the country myself to 30 of 40 different

towns and cities in the first part of this year and it is a real

concern and it has to be addressed. But, we have to understand what that

concern is and address it in a way that is meaningful. We should not

fanned the flames of division. You and many people watching this were

appalled by the sort of language with lists of foreign workers, it is

clear, we cannot fan the division. Let's take the concerns seriously

and address them seriously, but not found division. That is the wrong

tone of these negotiations. Amber Rudd has proposals, and in fact

these lists of foreign workers will not be published. We do this for

non-EU workers. If Brexit is going to mean something serious and a big

change in our politics, it means a change in the number of British

people who are trained and brought into jobs. It must feel like

something has changed. So you have to know if one copy shop is

employing 80% of EU workers and another one is employing 30%. The

language and tone have been quite extraordinary. This has to be a

delicate negotiation and freedom of movement has to be thought through.

That is clear. But to use the language and the tone that has been

used is fundamentally wrong and should not be done in that way. But

the proposals themselves are not fundamentally xenophobic or silly?

No, they have to be carefully considered. So language is the

problem. One final question on immigration because this will be

important. Do you think immigration is too high, too low or just about

right? There has been a huge amount of immigration in the last few years

and people are understandably concerned. I think it should be

reduced by making sure we have got the skills in this country to make

sure people have got the jobs. As I went around the country it was clear

there was a skills shortage. This is a failure of government, it is

nothing to do with immigrants. That has got to be dealt with. I know

immigration is a central issue, but the single market... I am glad you

mentioned those words. If you accept we have to take back control of

immigration, that means an end to free movement and we cannot join a

tariff free single market. We have to be open to adjustments of the

freedom of movement rose and we have to be shrewd and careful about that.

I accept that freedom of movement was a major issue in the referendum

but nobody with a voted to leave or remain voted for a government to

take an axe to the economy. The Prime Minister's stance on the

single market is making it impossible for us to have access to

the single market. That is a huge risk to the economy, jobs and

working people. There are a series of logical problems there. If you

think Brexit was about taking back control of immigration and you say

we must, once we take back control... I set it must be part of

the negotiations and it is free movement of workers that was the

principal. It is part of the negotiation. Apart from defence of

the round, I cannot think of a Prime Minister in recent history who has

not put the economy first. It is astonishing that the Prime Minister

is not putting the economy first and that is what is causing concern

about her approach. The economy, jobs and workers' rights have to be

the priority and how you negotiate about freedom of movement is part of

that, but not to put the economy first is astonishing. We come onto

what may happen in the House of Commond where Theresa May does not

have a large majority, what you are saying today is that you want, and

Ed Miliband has put down a question, you want Theresa May and the

government to come forward and explain their negotiating position

before the Brexit talks start before Article 50 is triggered? There

should be a vote on that? Absolutely, put the terms before the

house and have a vote on it. If you do not have the confidence of the

house on the starting terms, you are heading for disaster. She says we

cannot negotiate if we are doing it in public. We cannot go to the House

of Commond and say this is what we think and then go and negotiate. It

may be close, but that is what has to happen for a negotiation. She is

saying, leave it to us, we will not have any scrutiny or accountability,

see you in a few months' time. That is unacceptable. Nobody gave the

government a blank cheque. We must have a vote on the opening terms of

the negotiation. Do you believe you would have a majority to frustrate

the Prime Minister if she tried to do it another way? It is a question

of accountability. If she cannot get the confidence of the house on the

opening terms, they are probably the wrong opening terms. What she has

said is there is going to be a great repeal bill to take us out of the

European communities act of 1972 and take all of the measures passed back

into British law is to be looked at again. Will the Labour Party support

that? It is a sensible thing to make sure that rights for working people

are enshrined in our law. One of the things I called for a very early was

that workplace rights should be enshrined in our law now. I am not

against that, it should be done sooner rather than later. But EU

citizens in this country want to know what the future holds and they

feel they are just a bargaining chip at the moment. Regional funding...

Would you use those issues to boats down the so-called great repeal

Bill? We will have to see what the detail is. It is difficult to say

when we do not know the detail. I am not against the principle that

rights that are there because of the EU should be invested in our law, it

is the sensible way to go. In terms of immigration you say numbers

should go down. How much should they go down? One of the biggest mistake

since 2010 of the government is to reduce the net migration target and

not to see it in any other way. That causes all sorts of perverse

outcomes. Let's keep away from numbers, would you like to see it

come down substantially? One of the things I was struck by what I went

around the country was that company after company was saying they have

to recruit from Europe. They are not training here. That is not an

immigration issue, that is a skilled issue and we need to address that. I

do not want to stop companies recruiting from abroad, we are

driving the numbers because we have got a skills shortage we have not

addressed and that is the failure of government. You left the shadow

cabinet, you said you did not think Jeremy Corbyn was a plausible future

Prime Minister and you are now back in again. Have you changed your mind

about Jeremy Corbyn? Would he make a good Prime Minister? We had an

election, Jeremy Corbyn one that and we accepted and respected. We have

had three months of internal division and everybody on either

side just hated that division over the last three months. We now need

to pull together and work to have the most effective opposition we

can. Of course, we want a Labour government and we want to support

Jeremy Corbyn to that end. He has won the membership and he now needs

to win the country. He knows that, we know that and we have to work

together. Am I talking to Jeremy Corbyn's voice on Brexit because he

says he does not want to reduce immigration? Or am I talking to that

autonomous voice? But what about this shadow shadow cabinet. Some of

your colleagues are caucusing or developing policies away from the

shadow cabinet and that is surely very dangerous? There are unresolved

issues in the Parliamentary Labour Party and we need to resolve them as

soon as possible. We need to be an outward looking, confident party,

rather than an inward, divided party. We need to address that. On

the other hand, I respect colleagues who want to make their voice heard

from different places, from the backbenches, to the select

committees or on the front bench. We all need to remember that being in a

stronger position is what is needed, not just for the Labour Party, but

for the country. Rosie Winterton, a loyal, hard-working Chief Whip has

been removed. Are you sad to see her go? I only knew her for a short

time, but I respected her and I am sad to see her go. What would you

say to others who say, she has gone, so I am going as well? Stepping that

we need to pull together and remember the country needs an

effective opposition. We have got to provide it. Thank you very much for

talking to us. Alongside the new faces

appointed to Theresa May's Michael Fallon, a veteran

hard-hitting Tory loyalist, who kept his job as Defence

Secretary. It's a very tricky time

for him just now - the Russians are probing Nato air

space in the Baltic, pushing ahead with the redeployment

of crucial missiles, warning of looming nuclear war,

and according to Boris Johnson, In brief, what is our response,

beyond wringing our hands? Is it simply protesting? No. We are

doing a lot in Nato, and I think we were right. You can see the

deployment of missiles now close to Berlin. We were right to agree to

further assurance measures to put troops into Estonia and Poland next

year. And to get other countries in Nato to meet the 2% target which we

are meeting ourselves. Can I ask you about your view of Mr Putin and

Russia's current stance? Almost everywhere you look, the Russians

are pushing up against us - they are coming into our airspace, the

Americans have accused of interfering in the American

presidential campaign. It feels like we have not been in a more difficult

is issuing regarding the Russians since the Cold War? It's extremely

concerning, we are seeing a much more aggressive Russia. We hoped

Russia would become a partner to us in the west, but clearly Russia has

decided to become a competitor. They said they would come in and help

find Isis, and they've done that. They've been helping President Assad

bomb his own people. They've been flexing their muscles in the Black

Sea, we've seen pressure on the Baltic states, and they've tried to

interfere in elections, and even on the Dutch referendum. So is this not

a moment where we in the west have to reassess our own defence

capabilities, from 2010 until very recently, our defence budget was

going down very substantially, it is 8% down. When I started doing this

programme, we always had more than 100,000 troops. We now have 80000

and falling. Many people are saying we are simply not big enough and

strong enough in defence. That's simply not right. The cuts which

were imposed necessarily in 2010 when the budget was in MS have

stopped now, and in fact we are increasing the numbers in the Navy

and force. Last year we committed to a huge programme of investment in

the Armed Forces. We are building aircraft carriers, adding more

planes and adding more than the special forces. We are building our

defences up again, and crucially we are meeting the 2% target. The real

answer is that we should stay strong and be strong. Sir Richard Alnwick,

former Chief of the General Staff, says, we are trying to be a big

player, but we haven't got the resources that we used to have, by a

very long way. In other words, the cuts have gone so far that you as

Defence Secretary have to do even more to rebuild things? We have the

fifth biggest defence budget in the world, some of the best Armed Forces

in the world, and we are determined to go on playing an international

role. Every ex-chief I've come across says they would rather we did

more and spend more. I think it is to the credit of this government

that in difficult Financial Times, defence spending is now increasing

again. My budget went up in April, it is going to go on going up every

year of this parliament, and we will meet the 2%. I will not quote you

endless defence chief. General Sir David Richards barons, former joint

task force commander, said in the Financial Times, neither of us nor a

deployed force could be conducted in a Russian effort. Radars, control

systems and missile stocks are deficient - is he right? We would

not be defending ourselves against Russia on our own. That is the whole

point of being in the Nato alliance. The general is a friend of mine and

he was part of the defence review. He agreed it last year when we

agreed a new approach of investment in our Armed Forces. We are one of

only four countries in the world building aircraft carriers. By a

guess my basic question to you, as a former Defence Secretary, -- as a

Defence Secretary, in the defence of government -- are you going back to

the Treasury and saying, we need to do even more? I am absolutely

hoarding to the commitment that our budget will go up in real terms each

year of this Parliament. And we will go on meeting the 2%. But my job is

also to make sure that the money we get is spent wisely, and we invest

in the right things. Aleppo, absolutely hideous scenes, attacks

on children, being slaughtered, noncombatants - apart from wringing

our hands and protesting at the United Nations, is there anything we

can practically do to help these people? We are working at the United

Nations and in fact a resolution was vetoed by Russia the other day. We

are continuing to work for a political settlement in Syria. But

if Russia is determined to prolong this war, and is conniving with the

regime's bombing of civilians, and may indeed have been bombing

civilians themselves... As Johnson suggested they were guilty of war

crimes. I would endorse that, it looks as if they did target that

particular convoy. And they should be hold accountable. Is there

anything else we can do? There is no way of getting corridors in to get

people out, to rescue some of the civilian population before they are

slaughtered? Some aid is getting through, very little, not much. But

we will continue to work on that. It's impossible to have safe zones

if we cannot be sure that planes and convoys will not be attacked by

Russia. But we will continue to work at it, and huge progress is being

made against Daesh for example over in Iraq. I cannot remember an

American presidential candidate so lukewarm on Nato as Donald Trump.

Are you worried? I was in Washington when he made those remarks about

Nato. But every American president has understood the importance of

Nato. It is a defensive alliance, we help each other collectively. I'm

sure that whoever is in will abide by that particular Monday. Since

we're talking about him, what do you make of the recent remarks, the huge

hullabaloo about him - is this a man who is fit to be American president?

We have to be very careful not to comment on other people caught in

elections. We have to respect democracy and work with whoever

wins. Go on! I am tempting you! I am not going to if intervene in the US

election. But I will emphasise that in Nato, we are all in it together.

Two sovereign countries which are friendly to us, France and Germany,

have talked about pulling their Armed Forces is the nucleus of a new

European army. You have said that as long as we are inside the EU, we

will veto that. Given that we are trying to come out of the EU, where

is our moral authority to veto that? There is no support for an EU army

across the European Union. When we discussed this in Bratislava couple

of weeks ago, plenty of other countries were opposed to this -

Poland, Sweden, the Baltic states, they do not want to merge their

Armed Forces. And in fact Germany doesn't. What they are looking for

is some kind of operational headquarters in Brussels, which we

think would simply Judy K what Nato already does. Do you accept that

effectively these days, it's none of our business any more? No. We are

full members of the European Union until we leave. We have the biggest

defence budget in Europe, of the largest may be, the most capable

Armed Forces, and even after we left, we will still be committed to

the security of what is our continent. -- the largest navy.

That's why we are putting troops on to its eastern border next year to

help defend against any Russian aggression. I always had you Marks

down is a bit of a Brexiteer on the quiet, but you said, it would make

resident putting happy if we left because it would weaken the EU. And

now we have a proposal from two big countries in the EU to try to

strengthen their defence capability, presumably against the Russians, and

I don't understand why we are trying to frustrate them. Nato is the

cornerstone of our defence and I happen to believe that the EU can

impose its actions in a way that Nato couldn't. That it is Nato

really that we must not undermine. And my objection to this EU

headquarters proposal is, it would simply jump Kate Ward we are already

doing in Nato. We have been talking about Brexit already - the overall

impression from the papers is that in the Conservative Party

conference, the thing that we learned is that the so-called soft

Brexit, in other words, trying somehow by the back door to stay

inside a single European market without tariffs, that has gone -

would you accept that? No. Theresa May said that we are not doing a

running commentary, but she updated the party and the country by setting

a timetable for Brexit. I think the markets wanted to know that. So each

option is still there? She also made clear what is going to happen with

European law - that's going to be returned to our Parliament and

courts, the moment we exit. She also laid out three objectives of the

negotiation which is now about to start. First, that there should be

full co-operation on security, counter-terrorism and law

enforcement. Secondly, we should maximise free trade in goods and

services with the remaining 27. And thirdly, that we should regain

control over immigration. Those are the objectives of this negotiation.

And the precise new host nation is now what is going to happen. So it

is still conceivable that we could stay as a member of the single

market? No. We have said that we want to maximise free trade in goods

and services with the European countries, with whom we already do

quite a considerable amount of trade at the moment. I'm still confused,

the single market for us, is it dead or not? This is Brexit, full Brexit,

we're going to be outside the European Union. But because it is

more than 40% of our trade, we still want to maximise our trade with it.

Again, looking at today's papers, you see softer Brexiteers briefing

against hard Brexiteers and vice versa. This is damaging for the

Cabinet, presumably. What is your message to both sides? Well, we are

all Brexiteers now. We are respecting the decision of the

British people and we have got to make a success of it.

Now for a look at what's coming up after this programme.

Is it immoral to avoid paying tax warning also, we ask, are there too

many framework is in Britain? And we meet Baroness Benjamin of Beckenham.

Join us at ten o'clock. Join me again at the same time next

week when we have an exclusive performance by Michael C Hall

from the David Bowie Andrew Neil will be

here on BBC One at 11. His guests will include

Iain Duncan Smith and Tim Farron. I leave you now with one

of the brightest young stars From his new album Love Hate,

this is One More Night. ..and builds worlds,

not just characters. Join Andrew Marr as he reads

into the books we love and explores why we find it

impossible to put them down.