27/11/2016 The Andrew Marr Show

In a week when official forecasts tells us of a dreadful decade

for ordinary families but we've also got real news

ahead since the Brexit vote, what's ahead of us has never seemed

We will try, again, to make it clearer for you.

But, this time we're gonna try our best to fail better.

One of the key figures who persuaded Britain to vote to leave the EU

and who declared we'd had enough of experts, Michael Gove,

Do they regard Brexit as a glorious opportunity or an imminent disaster.

Emily Thornberry, the Shadow Foreign Secretary, is here.

One of the missing elements in the Autumn Statement

was a big boost for the NHS, former Health Secretary

And, Hollywood star, Ed Harris - from London's West End

You never understand the game is rigged. The house always wins.

Plus we have some great live music this morning from the one

Reviewing the morning's news, including reaction to the death

of Fidel Castro, broadcaster and financial columnist Paul Mason,

the Financial Times' Miranda Green and, from the right,

All that coming up soon. First, the news with Rachel Burden.

Cuba has begun nine days of mourning following the death of the former

Public events have been cancelled and mass memorials are taking

The Communist leader, who died, aged 90, on Friday,

governed Cuba for more than half a century.

The UK's equalities watchdog has expressed concern about "racist,

anti-semitic and homophobic attacks" since the EU referendum in June.

The Equality and Human Rights Commission has written

to the leaders of all the UK's political parties urging them

to tone down their rhetoric to help heal divisions in the country

Francois Fillon and Alain Juppe, go head-to-head today

in a runoff vote for France's centre-right

The two former Prime Ministers took part in a televised

The winner of today's vote could end up facing the far-right

National Front leader Marine Le Pen in the general election next spring.

Syrian State media says government forces have re-taken the largest

rebel-controlled district in eastern Aleppo.

It says troops are now clearing the district of mines and bombs.

More than 250,000 people are trapped in eastern

Aleppo, which has come under heavy bombardment since government forces

resumed their offensive earlier this month.

That's all from me, for now. Back to you, Andrew.

I can't remember a death which has divided the press and divided the

commentators quite like that of Fidel Castro. The Sunday Telegraph,

they don't have the main picture of Castro himself but the Cuban exiles

in America celebrating his death, and the story about Theresa May and

business pay crackdown. The Sunday Times, Fidel Castro, "Scourge of the

West dies at 90". World divides over revolutionary icon who became a

murderous tyrant. I suspect we will divide ourselves across the sofa in

a moment on that. We have a story on Theresa May who says the Brexit

challenge keeps her awake at night. I don't know if that makes you feel

better or worse. And The Observer, Fidel Castro, straightforward

picture with his beard staring into the distance. Another interesting

story, saying that care for the elderly in this country is close to

collapse and talking about the need for more money to save the NHS

because of the beds being used by elderly people. We will talk about

that later. On a different note in the Mail on Sunday, Ted Heath's

accuser is a Satanic sex fantasist. The Sunday express's story, Nigel

Farage fears for his life after the Brexit and Trump vote and can't go

out without police protection. A great deal to talk about. All, you

have chosen the Sun newspaper and Castro.

Baughman in heaven. Castro is divisive but the moment I realised

he had died yesterday morning my mind went to the people of Cuba who

I think are slightly missing from the press coverage today. -- our man

in heaven. The rebellion carried out in 1959 throwing out a US backed

dictator. The last time I was there a guide to me to the heart of the

forest, he was a critic of Castro, he said, don't think we like this,

the suppression of freedom of speech, but those are the slave pens

the Spanish had and these are the slave driving techniques the

Americans imposed on us. Do not think because we dislike the

autocracy and the suppression of freedom that we will ever accept the

rule of America back into our country.

Your view is the Cubans were caught between a rock, the Americans and

the hard place Castro, and... Behar hapless, the USSR, he was a left

nationalist. -- the hard place. He was pushed into the arms of the

Soviet Union and begins to act like a classic Eastern European Soviet

tyrant. Call him what you will but the Cuban people, this is the

tragedy in the 20th century, were still able to achieve economically

so much and politically in Africa to defeat help defeat apartheid. This

is one of Castro's legacies. Let's not say it is Castro's Lacey, it is

the Cuban people's legacy. Jeremy Corbyn says he was a great fighter

for social justice. Jeremy Corbyn speaks for me.

Miranda, another side of him is the beard, the cigar, the image and the

iconic Castro thing and some second-rate writer burbling on in

the Sunday Times about that. Some man called Andrew Marr, I don't know

who he is, but he makes a few good points. It is interesting because

the great age of the Cuban revolution was also the great age of

photography and photographic reportage. This young Cuban

photographer who drapes the iconic images of Che Guevara and then

Castro onto badges and T-shirts all around the world. Bought in

Streatham high Street in the 80s by all of us. Essentially as you have

seen in the Sunday Times today these wonderful black and white

photographs from the 50s and 60s tell the story of a whole era and

it's the glamour of the revolutionaries. Paul has alluded to

the terrible human rights violations of the Cuban revolution and the

Castro era, which are incredibly serious and horrendously glossed

over by the left today in their celebrations of Castro's life. You

can see why it was so appealing because the word icon is usually

banned in journalism because it is horribly overused but they created

icons, created Castro and Che Guevara alongside him as these

exciting figures liberating a nation. Now we have the age of

government by television, we have Trump is a new political leader, a

reality TV leader, but this was the great age of photography and it was

extremely easy if you have the right charisma, to build a nation around

you and build that loyalty. Repression was terrible under

Castro. Ferocious, absolutely. Paul says Jeremy Corbyn speaks for him

when he says Castro was a champion of social justice. Does he speak for

you? He was a dictator who imprisoned and killed a whole bunch

of people. While people in the West were being taken away by the icon of

Castro, people in Cuba were suffering. The Sunday Telegraph's

picture of these Cubans in America who are celebrating. They have a

freedom to do that in the states. It would be a brave Cuban who reacted

that way. You have to ask why did tens of thousands of Cubans make the

90 mile journey in the sea to America if Cuba was such a great

place. They tell you here, fleeing oppression, persecution of their

families. That is why it is dangerous for any leader, not so

much Jeremy Corbyn because people don't expect him to be sensible in

such situations, but other world leaders, normally you would say it

is a shame, God rest his soul but because it was a dictator people

have to caveat that. The New York Times has a good story about Justin

Trudeau, the Canadian Prime Minister, who didn't make that

caveat. He said Castro was a revolutionary and a wonderful man

and a orator. Because he didn't put the caveat he has got criticism. The

New York Times quotes Ted Cruz, Paul is laughing, but he is a

Cuban-American who may have some thoughts on this, accusing him of

slobbering. I wrote a member when George Bush was told of the death of

Arafat, he said God rest his soul. That is normally what you think.

When a dictator dies who has done so many atrocities you must factor that

in. When a dictator died in Saudi Arabia who ran the flag of

Buckingham Palace last year. What about the comparison of Pinochet

when the Wright said he did some bad things but brought in free-market

economics? Initiate had people raped by dogs. The key economists of the

West Milton Freeman and Hayek ran to congratulate him while this was

going on. The left, my part of the left, have ever ceased to criticise

the human rights violations back Castro impose on Cuba. He gave

people a horrible time in Cuba. They did. Re-education camps for

homosexuals. Castro himself signed the order. Summary executions for

opponents. Banning trade unions. It is the qualification of the butt,

the however. We are talking about the 20th century, the enemy he was

facing killed 1 million civilians in Vietnam. Castro didn't do that.

Pinochet imposed a dictatorship to suppress the economic rights of his

people, Castro raised them. I don't think that excuses Castro's

anti-democratic tie radical behaviour, but one thing that he did

also do is spread the revolution. He's read it to Africa. In 1988 the

South African defence Force ran into the Cuban army and lost -- spread it

to Africa. That speeded before of apartheid and we have two applaud

that. I pride myself on smooth transitions from one story to

another. I don't have one except we talked about economists and we will

talk about another one now. The biggest political story this morning

as Mark Carney, the governor of the Bank of England, who has a plan for

Brexit even if nobody else does and he wants a transition that could go

on for four years. The background to the stories we have the Autumn

Statement last week which had some rather gloomy figures on the state

of the public finances. We have also had good news in terms of business

investment this year. This week. This story is Mark Carney, the

governor of the Bank of England, who has been under serious fire from the

Brexit side of the argument, the pro-leave side, the apparently has a

plan for what is called a Brexit buffer, the idea that Theresa May

alluded to this week as well, that you have some sort of transition

arrangement to prevent the British economy falling off a cliff edge

when Brexit happens at the end of the Article 50 process. Is a very

interesting story because really where the news will go is how to get

ourselves out of this and what is the plan? Since there is a deafening

silence from No 10 about what the plan might be nature abhors a vacuum

and so does news and here comes Mark Carney with apparently some sort of

plan. The Sunday Times Magazine has interviewed Theresa May and it's an

interesting interview but it is fair to say they don't have a detailed

account of what will happen if Brexit occurs. They haven't and

nobody has because nobody knows. Britain goes into the negotiations

wanting pretty much all of the good bits of the EU but none of the bad

bits. The worst-case scenario is the WTO rules but it will be somewhere

in between. We don't know what we will be given by the rest of the EU.

Nobody debating in Parliament can find out. That is why we have this

unsatisfactory situation where everybody wants to know what will

come and we won't know until the two years of negotiations have been

done. Theresa May said in the interview this is what keeps her

awake at night. This is the concern about how government, Brexit is

eclipsing everything else. That she should be kept awake by. The NHS? A

whole bunch of other things, but the only story we hear is Brexit and

nothing seems to be happening. Interestingly, Mark Carney just won

this power struggle with Theresa May. She had to compromise with him.

He is in a strong position so he is using that strong position to say he

will start freelancing to negotiate himself. And an elected bureaucrat

is running our policy on Brexit. That's the problem of having the

political vacuum -- unelected. We also have the problem of the vacuum

of what is happening in Europe. We discussed that later. Europe might

not be united enough to impose the hard Brexit on us. It looks like

that is what they want to do. I think we should go for the softest

possible and least disruptive form of this rupture that we can. But

Carney's response shows it may not be possible. He talks about

protecting the City of London and financial services which is

important, not least for the tax take. We are running out of time but

can we do Europe quickly? Looking at France, and above all Italy all over

the papers today were it looks like next Sunday the Italian Prime

Minister might actually lose his referendum and have to go and that

would possibly bring in the northern region, or the five Star Movement,

the radicals, threatening Italy's membership of the euro and

triggering the next crisis. This is way bigger than Brexit bugs if it

happens there could be a run on the Italian banks and the immediate

economic implications. As Paul will tell us... I'm stealing your paper,

sorry. The Daily Mail has a picture of the Mayor of Rome on it. She has

been a disaster, apparently. I think she has been excellent.

Interestingly she is on the left of the five Star Movement and the

interesting thing is it is a proxy vote, this thing next weekend, about

Europe. But it will not lead to any results about Europe unless the

government falls. The interesting thing is the left will vote no to

the referendum in a way I didn't think you'd get its act together to

do on Brexit. This is really significant because

although the referendum is about whether the Senate has fewer powers,

what it really means is this could be the next domino falling in

European politics, which could lead to a run on the Italian banks,

another huge eurozone crisis at a moment of political crisis and it

could be really serious. And of course in Austria with a neo-Nazi

possibly going to be elected as president, then France, so a whole

series of changes. I want to finish off with the social care story on

the front page of the observer because that's the big story we will

talk about in a second. This is a major move by lots of senior people

in the NHS and around the NHS to try to persuade the Government to think

again about social care. Councillors are in trouble. Brexit has messed up

the public finances, the Government did not give anything to the NHS's

social care. We are seeing small care providers hand back the

contract and we are hearing this more and more so your elderly

grandparents is now being looked after by companies that cannot

function business-wise. Closing down or handing back the contracts. Do

you think Philip Hammond made a mistake by not saying much more

about this in the Autumn Statement? Yes, it turns out he has a huge pot

of money we didn't know he had and he wants to spend it on

infrastructure. Roads are the new hospitals. In doing so he upset a

lot of people who had bought if there was any spare money they would

like some of it. It is a good thing to end on because we are going to

carry on talking about the NHS. You may have noticed

Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt indicating on this programme

he wanted more money. You may have noticed

the Chancellor Philip Hammond in the Autumn Statement

conspicuously declining to offer it. Stephen Dorrell was a Tory Health

Secretary and is Chairman of the NHS Confederation and he

joins me from Worcester. Were you surprised, were you

disappointed, not to hear more or anything from Philip Hammond in the

Autumn Statement about the NHS? I was very disappointed not to hear in

particular about social care. There is an easy slogan headline here

saying what we should be focused on is NHS funding, but actually Simon

Stevens, the chief executive of NHS England, said that if there was some

spare money it needed to go into social care in order to create a

more efficient health and social care system, and more balanced

system. So in an Autumn Statement where Philip Hammond was talking

about the importance of productivity, I can think of no

instance across public or private sector where a small investment by

the Government could have produced a bigger improvement in productivity

through efficient use of the whole of the health and social care

system. And a small investment in social care could have delivered

significant improvements in the quality and efficiency of the whole

health and social care system. Was it a mistake not to offer something?

And what happens to the social care system if nothing is done? The

answer is that it was a mistake, in my view, not to make an investment

in social care. The result is to put it in very simple terms that needs

that should be met by supporting people in their own homes or

providing residential care end up in NHS hospitals. When we hear stories

of full emergency wards, full A departments, that is in part at

least the result of failing to meet the demands through the social care

system because it is inadequately funded. I don't know if you were

able to hear Paul Mason suggesting this would be a crisis that would

dominate the news for the next nine months or so, but I suppose the

question is, given that money is tight, can the Government actually

afford to do much about this? All I'm doing is picking up Philip

Hammond's own rationale for investing in a productivity fund. If

you invest in social care, you are improving the productivity of the

whole health and social care system and helping people who otherwise

find their family budgets under incredible strain and personal worry

because of failures in social care. Should Philip Hammond change tack

and come back to the House of Commons and offer some more money?

And secondly, as a former Health Secretary yourself, don't you think

you are being disloyal by attacking him publicly? I think one of the key

attributes of being involved in any form of public life, and now as

chair of the NHS Confederation, is a willingness to speak truth to power

and there's no good going into this winter saying it will be all right,

when we already have lengthening queues in A departments, we

already have problems with hospitals unable to discharge people because

of inadequate provision of social care. The easy headline is to say

spend more money on the NHS. That's not what we are saying, we are

saying proper investment to the part of the system that isn't working

will actually deliver better value as well as better care. So should

Philip Hammond come back to the House of Commons and do that? My

answer is twofold to that, firstly yes he should, and secondly, is also

in the Autumn Statement, this is one of the less noticed dates, said we

need to start thinking about the structure of public expenditure

going into the next parliament because there will be some

commitments that need to be reviewed at that time. It is precisely for

that reason that we from the Confederation on a cross-party basis

with Alan Milburn, one of my labour successors as Health Secretary, and

also Norman Lamb, the health minister in the coalition from the

Lib Dems, have argued we need to look on a more long-term basis at

these funding questions so we don't get into this kind of short-term

impending crisis. Stephen Dorrell, thanks for joining us this morning.

And so to the weather, It's Baltic, it's icy,

all across the country brass monkeys are feeling a little uneasy.

It is that time of the year, and we have some really cold nights and

mornings in the forecast. Today it is an improving story with bright

and sunny spells drifting down from the north on a northerly breeze, so

it will be on the chilly side with that northerly breeze. The brighter

weather is filtering south but this week whether fund may get stuck

across the far south-west keeping its grey hair and grey in Northern

Ireland too. That whether fund eventually clears away from the

south-western corner, and we will see that blue tinge across Scotland

so it will turn quite cold, around about freezing in Glasgow. Elsewhere

it is cold, rural spots go a few degrees lower than that. Chilly

start a Monday morning but with clear skies there will be a lot of

sunshine through the day on Monday. Some patchy cloud here and there but

it won't amounted to much. We are stuck in single figures pretty much

across the board, then it is Monday night into Tuesday when temperatures

really plummet away, particularly across England and Wales. The blue

tinge becomes quite widespread, some places go down to minus five. A very

cold starter Tuesday and temperatures will' is through

Tuesday afternoon, but at least there will be some dry and bright

weather once the fog clears away. Emily Thornberry is Jeremy Corbyn's

neighbour in Islington and has become a key supporter

of the Labour leader. He's appointed her Shadow Foreign

Secretary at a time when the party's policy on Europe and the world has

never been more important. There seems to be some doubt in

people's minds even now about Labour's reel up to -- real attitude

to Brexit. Do you think we should be a member of the single market after

Brexit? We need to have the widest access possible to the single market

after. Do you accept that that means we could not have control over

immigration? That is subject to negotiation and we need to be

reasonable about it and think carefully about what the trade

offers. Our priority is the economy and we need to make sure that

whatever decisions are made, we don't make ourselves poorer or

takeaway anybody's jobs. You say there should be a negotiation but

for a lot of people there seems to be a gap between being inside the

single market and accepting free movement of people, and being

outside. Diane Abbott has said you cannot have access to the single

market or be part of it without freedom of movement. She goes on, it

is time people started acknowledging that. Those who are arguing for the

least harmful Brexit have to be clear to people that there is no

deal to be done on freedom of movement and put in peril our

economic interest as a country. Do you agree with that? Yes, I agree

with a lot of that. In the end, if we are going to be part of the

single market, we are going to have to concede control over freedom of

movement. I think David Cameron Mr fantastic opportunity to look at

reforming one of the pillars of the European Union before the general

election, before we had a referendum. He went off and was

going to fix the European Union, and yet the Europeans saw he wasn't

acting on behalf of the whole of Britain and he got nothing. That was

a golden opportunity that was wasted. We have common cause with

others across Europe in terms of exactly what freedom of movement of

workers means, and more work could be done if it was done in an

atmosphere of good faith but quite frankly the way Boris Johnson is

behaving at the moment, he is undermining any good faith they

could possibly be with European friends and neighbours. I'm still

confused, the kind of access you want the single market comes at a

price of conceding free movement of people, do you accept that? I think

what we need to do is to look at what freedom of movement of workers

means and how it is defined and how it is applied, and I think there is

quite a lot of room for manoeuvre. David Cameron try to do it but was

simply not in the right place... Give an example of where we could

get to. We can look at what is the definition of a worker, how long you

can be in the country without work... People would still be able

to come here? Yes, then there is the question of what areas of the

country they might be able to find work, there are whole range of

options available and subject to negotiation but we are so far from

that. I'm trying to work out where labour would like to be post-Brexit.

So you are going to vote for Article 50 to be triggered, then after that

you are wanting to get maximum access to European markets, which

might mean large numbers of workers coming here in exchange for access

to those markets, is that right? The first priority of any government

should be the safety and security of its people, the second priority

should be the economy because if it does badly there are people who are

only just managing who will suffer and we have to bear that in mind

when making decisions about the future of the country. How that

works out the subject to negotiation and at this stage it seems to us

that the Government should be confident enough to be able to come

to us and say these are the main principles on which we will be

negotiating. You sound as vague as they do, we want our cake and eat

it, access to the single market and some kind of control over

immigration. It is about time we stopped talking about having cake

and eating our cake. We have to look at the options and we have to know

that it is a trade-off. We need to be able to have a proper debate

within the British public as to what the options are. We need a long-term

relationship with Europe and to be honest about what that means. Do I

think that too many people at the moment come into this country? Yes,

I think they do because we have a skills shortage, we are not training

enough people in this country. So less immigration under a Labour

government? We need to address the skills gap, and if we do that we

won't have the same need for more people coming in. Do we have

employers taking advantage of getting employees from other

countries and undercutting wages? Yes, and we need to be able to

control that as well. If employers were finally training some of our

youngsters so they did have the skills... I get it. Can I ask you

about something else that has come up this week which is that Tony

Blair and John Major have said that if things are economically as bad as

some are suggesting, there should be a second referendum, do you agree

with that? At the moment we cannot even have a debate as to how it is

we are going to leave the European Union because the Government claim

they are keeping their cards close to their chests but we know they

don't even have any card or don't know what game they are playing. It

is time they told us what a continuing relationship is likely to

be so that we can debate it and Theresa May can go to Europe and say

I'm representing the whole of Britain. They need to hack on behalf

of 100% and not the extreme 5% of the 52%. If you don't like what they

say when they finally tell us, what then happens? Can you stop them in

Parliament in some way? Should there be a second referendum?

This must be taken step-by-step but they will not take the first step

which is they have had five months now, five months! David Cameron

specifically told the civil service not to look at plan B and they have

now had five months to work out what their plan will be and they come

with nothing, that's the starting point, let's start with what the

government wants to negotiate and then we can have a reaction from the

public and a proper debate and decide how to proceed. Until they

lay down their basic negotiating position we cannot begin this

debate. Your leader and your friend Jeremy Corbyn said of Fidel Castro

that he was a great fighter for social justice and a huge historical

figure. A lot of people thought he failed to address the dark side of

the Castro regime, all of those killings, the abuse of gay people

and torture and so on, what is your view? I think Castro was a hugely

divisive figure and it is quite difficult to get beyond human rights

abuses. My own experience, I went to Cuba in the early 1990s when there

was a great economic difficulty in that country and I found a country

that was egalitarian and with a fantastic health service. I had my

baby with me and we had to go to see the doctor. It came at a heck of a

price. In my view it was a brave island that stood against a regime

that for 50 years would not trade with it and would not let other

countries trade with its too. And not only did they stand firm and

strong they also exported their values across South America and

Africa producing doctors and nurses and teachers. There were camps and

torture and it came at a huge price. If it were Pinochet people on the

left would say he was a monster and he was terrible that should be got

rid of but because he wore a red star on his fatigues he seemed quite

gentle. If you look at the right wing press supporting Pinochet they

are the ones who come out and accuse Castro of all of the things they do.

Let me put this to you. How can it be that a little island like Cuba

can have not only sufficient doctors and nurses to be able to look after

the people of Cuba but they can also explore them across South America

and into Africa to give more doctors, to fight the bowler crisis

than the Americans and that tiny country can do that and we can't? --

the Ebola crisis. Set that alongside machine-gunning people in boats

including children when they are trying to leave the country. It is

hard to make an equivalent side, the dark side and bright side. There is

a bright side but there is a dark side. I acknowledge that but all I

say is from my experience, visiting a country at the time that didn't

have enough petrol to drive the cars, they were going around on

bicycles on the May Day parade. But nonetheless they still have an

excellent health and education service notwithstanding. It was an

enormous achievement for a little Caribbean island. You heard Stephen

Dorrell talking about the crisis in social care. Do you agree with him

and Paul Mason that we will see a crisis that will run out through the

rest of this year and the Chancellor should be backed by the House of

Commons putting more money into social care? Absolutely, I was in

Warwickshire yesterday and people are desperately worried about what

will happen with their elderly relatives, will they be got up at

breakfast time or a lunchtime? What will happen with people going into

hospital in crisis and not being able to come out again? Every pound

we spend on social care we save two, three, four, five in the health

service. We will talk later but for now, thank you, Emily Thornberry.

The US presidential race certainly highlighted many divisions

and tensions in the country, not least in those blue collar

farming communities where voters complained they'd been forgotten.

A timely revival of Sam Shepard's 1979

Pulitzer Prize-winning play Buried Child has

It stars Ed Harris - you know the slightly scary one

with the icy blue stare - as the father of a rural family

struggling with poverty, addiction and the darkest of secrets.

Well, you know, I was talking to Sam just a couple of weeks ago,

Sam Shepard, you know the playwright, and by his own

admission he was trying to kind of take that family drama,

you know, the Tennessee Williams or Eugene O'Neill, Arthur Miller,

and kind of break it up a little bit and see where it could go, you know?

This is a rather dysfunctional, eccentric family in the farmland

of southern Illinois and there's a big dark secret that they haven't

been dealing with for years and years, and it all comes

It's been described by one of the New York critics

The play here, as you say, is set in rural Illinois post dust

bowl so it's not a very fertile part of America,

but again, going back to what's going on now and Rust Belt America,

what do you think about the sense that the core of America,

that old productive, working-class, hard-working core has had its heart

Well, you know, starting with the Reagan administration,

I mean its unions have been decimated.

It used to be a really strong part of the working force

It provided a lot of people with employment and benefits etc.

That's all gone by the wayside, and a lot of the jobs,

you know, have gone and they're not coming back.

They're just not coming back, period.

Not even if you return to some kind of protectionism,

Not kind of factory jobs where there are things

that are automated now and being done by machines.

You're not going to go backwards with that.

So Trump's claim of, you know, he's going to create

millions and millions of jobs, we shall see.

I don't know what sector they are going to come in.

I wanted to ask you about Westworld, the other thing that people

Your guy, the Man in Black, is going into this virtual world

to enact pretty horrible desires and fantasies.

I've always admired your resolve, Theodore.

Thing is, you never understand the game is rigged.

I wonder to what extent the nastiness of that side

of Westworld also reflects, in your view, of what's

going on in the world at the moment.

It doesn't paint a very rosy picture of humanity, does it?

I know that, from myself, from my own character,

he's been coming to this park of 30 years, you know.

He discovered this side of himself when he first came to this park.

So he goes there once a month, you know,

On the outside world, ultimately, you find out some

But he's not, you know, he's not harming human beings,

he's harming artificial intelligence and he's purging this

Although this time he says he's not leaving so we will see what happens.

HBO have created this dystopian playpark with a vast, vast budget.

A second series has been commissioned and the Man in Black

is in the second series as well, I gather?

I am indeed, yes, I was just talking to Jonah the other night.

HBO initially wanted them to do eight episodes,

I think, and we really need ten to tell the story we want to tell,

so since it's a successful show, they said OK.

But it's hugely expensive, yes, quite an endeavour.

The play went down very well in New York, you've now got

a different audience, a London audience.

Do you feel a difference in the audience in London?

Actually not so much, Andrew.

We've had I don't know how many previews, maybe six,

seven, I'm not sure, but the audiences seem

They get the humour of it, and also get very quiet

during the darker things that happen, and I think they enjoy

It's been a great privilege talking to you, thank you very much.

Same here, thanks for having me on the show, I appreciate it.

And Buried Child by Sam Shepard is at London's Trafalgar Studios

The leading Tory strategist behind the successful campaign to persuade

Britain to leave the EU was the former Lord

Since being fired from the Government by Theresa May

in July he's been writing about the American elections

and helped found Change Britain, a group dedicated to ensuring

that the Government delivers on the Brexit vote.

Welcome, Mr Gove. Can I ask about the slew of forecasts we have had

this week. Terrifying, we are not economists but 200,000 job losses,

they are talking about, extra ?60 billion hole in the public finances

and a miserable decade of almost no growth in real wages for most

people. It's possible they are right, isn't it? For me it felt like

deja vu all over again. I remember during the referendum campaign that

we had a litany of warnings, the sky was going to be dark, there would be

a plague on the street, if we voted to leave the EU. The reality is as

you pointed out over the top of the show... We have had lots of good

news and so on. I think that therefore the Chancellor and the

Prime Minister are right, obviously, to respect the independence of the

OBR but right also to take it as the Chancellor's aides were saying, with

a pinch of salt. There is a challenge, not so much with the

government, as for many of those who were heavily invested in what became

known as Project fear. The economists and opinion pollsters...

Always want to be proved right. One of my concerns. Economists have to

recognise their profession is in crisis. The economics profession

failed to predict the 2008 financial crass, economists in the past argued

to a man and woman we should enter the single currency and they were

wrong about the impact of Britain voting to leave the EU. -- financial

crash. Neither of us are economists but it is the Institute for Fiscal

Studies and the OBR people themselves who have lots of

expertise. They may be right and may be wrong but when you look at the

range of possibilities ahead, as a non-expert, as I am, surely you must

accept the possibility that they may be right? You have to accept that

possibility and as you can tell I am radically sceptical about some of

the claims made. I respect the fact that there is an integrity to the

individuals making these predictions. They look at the

information they have and draw the conclusions they consider

appropriate. In the circumstances that is why I think Phillip Hammond

as Chancellor and the Autumn Statement about right. He didn't

embark on a lurch in any particular direction. I think he wisely allowed

some additional measures to ensure the infrastructure spending will be

there to sustain economic growth for the future so that there was a

fiscal boost alongside the monetary measures that have been taken in the

past. To return to the area of prediction, one of the things you

mentioned at the beginning of the programme was I was critical of

experts. In the now notorious comment I made I was cut off in

midstream, as politicians often are, the point I made was not that all

experts are wrong, that is manifestly nonsense. Expert

engineers, expert doctors, physicists. There is a subclass of

experts, particularly economists, pollsters, social scientists, who do

have to reflect on some of the mistakes they have made, the same as

a politician, I reflect some of my mistakes. Reflecting on mistakes,

if, and a big if, and if they were right we face a dreadful decade

would you then apologise for people on embarking us on this path? I've

always been ready to apologise for mistakes I've made, certainly after

a period of reflection. I'm radically sceptical about these

claims because we have been told beforehand that doom will follow and

it hasn't. Why look in these crystal balls when you can read the book,

and the book tells us, the reports tell us as you mentioned, there has

been significant additional investment in the British economy,

we have record low unemployment, inflation is at a decent level and

economic growth is higher and the recession which was predicted we

would have if we voted to leave. By now? Yes, has gone like a puff of

smoke. Since you are one of the architects of the Leave campaign,

can I check a few things with you? And my right to say that if we were

in the customs union we wouldn't be able to do the free-trade deals

around the world essential to our future outside the EU? And therefore

in your view we could not be in the customs union? Yes, I cannot see how

you can. I think when people voted to leave the European Union they

voted to take back control of our money, our laws, trade deals and our

borders. That means that the Single Market, which is basically a

bureaucratic web, we need to be out of, and the customs union, in so far

as it prevents us from forging trade deals with other countries, we

should be out of that too. Control means control. I'm trying to work

out what the government could do because business obviously wants

maximum access to these markets, 500 million people, and so forth. If we

had some kind of deal whereby we did sector by sector deals to allow

groups of EU workers to carry on coming into this country, the

construction industry says we need X number of plumbers or the NHS says

we need this number of gynaecological nurses, they get a

ticket from the government and those people can come in and in return we

get tariff free access from free markets, that would be a deal you

could live with? It is up to the government. What is your view? My

own preference is for a fair migration policy which doesn't

discriminate between EU citizens and others. I don't see just because you

happen to be Bulgarian why you should have any more rights to come

here than someone from Bangladesh. It should be a case of skills, as

you say if it is the case there are particular skills people have that

can aid the NHS they should come here. My own belief and conviction

is you should have a colour-blind, non-discriminatory immigration

policy. Also, I think there is a tendency to overcome the Kbis. I

think we can fairly quickly say to the other European nations -- over

complicated this. We hope our citizens will be safe in the EU and

we will guarantee the return are a civilised country. Should we do that

now? Yes, and at the same time, if you want to, you can start a trade

war with us, but we don't want that, we want tariff free access, you sell

more to us so we are doing you a favour net we want to be good

neighbours. Very clear, let me ask about a few other things that have

come up. First of all, John Major, your former leader, suggested if we

don't like the deal we getting there should be a second referendum.

Democratically, any reason why should be?

I think people would be rightly angry. I saw someone recently who

said that after the Battle of Hastings in 1066 there should have

been another fight in order to discover whether we would have a

hard Norman conquest or soft Norman conquest! The truth is we have a

long, passionate, at times wrench referendum debate, in the end the

vote was clear and overwhelmingly now almost everyone who voted to

leave and significant sections of those who voted to remain, want to

get on with it. We have the Prime Minister and government that is

tuned to that. While I respect John Major's history of service to the

country, in this area his reported comments are wrong. Let's move onto

something else, Theresa May is worried, reportedly, about there

being a cliff edge at the end of this process. We have had the

governor of the Bank of England now saying there should be a buffer

period of an extra two years so there is a smooth transition from

being inside the EU to outside. A lot of business people would say

that is a sensible suggestion. I'm open to it but not convinced we need

one because there is a tendency to overcomplicate this process. There

are all sorts of things we can do with our European partners and we

should carry on cooperating with them on defence and security, but

outside the European Union, and these are ongoing processes, ongoing

conversations we have as a good neighbour. But my worry is there are

some people who cannot get over the fact the British people voted to

leave the European Union and want us to have a transition period which is

as close as possible to avoiding Brexit. Some people talk about hard

Brexit, what they are really trying to do is make a liberation sound

like a punishment. I think it is far better to provide people with

certainty and to do so by having a clear, clean and simple approach

which allows us to enter a new phase, Britain as a sovereign nation

outside the EU, -- cooperating with our friends and neighbours. Mr

Verstappen has said since then he thinks individual British people

should have the ability to buy individual membership of the EU so

you can have two passports. Do you think that is a good idea? No, but

he is a witty man and I think this was... A joke? I think it was a

tease, a provocation. To be fair to the EU's negotiating team, they have

been broadly clear they want to hang tough at this stage. That's why I

think Theresa May is her cards close to her chest. The people who want

more detail, because they want to try to trip her up, and the media,

because they want the next chapter to the story. But having been a

minister, I recognise she is playing it right. What about the suggestion

that we will be paying into the EU budget, possibly until 2030 in terms

of our commitments to people's pensions and so forth for very long

time? Will that be acceptable? We need to work out what the divorce

arrangements are. I can see us once we have left still playing into the

common fund on things like science, but again, the people who made those

comments seem to be trying it on. It is more vital for Germany than in

Britain that we have a free-trade deal so at this stage there is a lot

of shadow-boxing. Let's make sure that when we get down to the proper

negotiations, we do so... And the Government are clear about this, a

clear end date at the end of which we are outside the European Union

and while we may be paying some legacy sums, they are tiny. You were

clear during the referendum campaign that we would go into a new world of

free trade deals around the world. Since then we have had Donald Trump,

who was a protectionist, being elected in America, Marine Le Pen is

a protectionist in France, but aren't we heading out into a free

trading world at the wrong moment when there are protectionists all

around us. I would not have voted for Donald Trump, one of the reasons

is his protectionist rhetoric but since he has become president he and

his team have made it clear they want a free trade deal with the UK.

Paul Ryan has said that he wants a rapid free trade deal with the

United Kingdom, so I hope we can secure that trade deal, not just

with America but with other like-minded nations, and also

Theresa May has made it clear she wants to be a leader for the

argument for free trade globally. I think there is a role for a British

Prime Minister leading an independent sovereign nation in

making the case for bringing down the borders on trade but respecting

countries' borders when it comes to security. It is clearly in our

interest to do the best deal with Donald Trump's America, so wouldn't

it be crazy to push Nigel Farage out of the picture? Whatever you think

of him, he has an in with Donald Trump. Shouldn't we be using him? We

should have professionals doing their job, but certainly Nigel

Farage, 4 million people voted for him at the last general election, he

should be respected and not abused. Much more to talk about but for now

thank you very much indeed. Now, a word about what's coming

up an hour from now, when Andrew Neil will be

here with the Sunday Politics. He'll be picking up on those

comments about NHS funding from Stephen Dorrell

with Labour's Shadow Health He'll also be debating that question

of a second EU referendum with Lord Ashdown and former

Tory Cabinet Minister Owen Paterson. That's the Sunday Politics

with Andrew Neil from Emily Thornberry magically here,

she joins Michael Gove. George Osborne made an interesting

intervention this week when he said that as a minister, the trouble is

you get caught up with things you said and you cannot ever deny them

again so you get caught up never admitting to any mistakes, or put --

all politicians are the same, do you agree with that? Yes. Yes. I am a

backbencher now, I can look back at my time of a minister and say I am

proud of that. If you were to tempt Emily into acknowledging she might

have made mistakes that would be a story, whereas if I acknowledge the

mistakes I made, that is old news. What is the worst mistake you have

made that you have not confessed to yet? I don't know, there are so

many! One I did confess to, which happened relatively early was

cancelling building schools for the future. It was done in a crass and

insensitive way, and it taught me a lesson. David Davis came up to me at

the end of what had been a very bruising experience for me in the

House of Commons, and he said, and he used an Anglo-Saxon phrase, you

will be a better minister for this because you learn from your

mistakes. This is perhaps one of the points of George's, there can

sometimes be a football manager culture in politics which means that

we are too quick to condemn people when they make a mistake and too

quick to call for their resignation, when the best learn from their

errors and improve on the job. Emily Thornberry, what do you think your

worst mistake was? Was it the Saint George's cross mistake? Those who

know my background know that I don't sneer at people and that wasn't

fair, so that people deliberately misinterpreted it. Some people were

deliberately offended -- genuinely offended but there was a lot of spin

on it. Do you think Jeremy Corbyn was unbalanced and his reaction to

Castro? It try to put forward both sides and it does depend which bit

you are quoted on. I disagree with Jeremy Corbyn about Fidel Castro but

that's not news either. To be fair to all politicians, sometimes when

we are trying to explain our position, we are not word perfect. I

mentioned the thing I had said about experts and I was making a broader

point, and then in the heat of the debate... Two things I would say,

one the subsequent quotation was unfair editing, but real thing was

that I wasn't particularly adroit in interview either. The trouble is

that people... We have run out of time I'm afraid. That also happens

in politics. We'll be back next Sunday

when our guests will include the star of The X-Files

and The Fall, Gillian Anderson. But we'll leave you today

with another star - Jools Holland. From his new album,

simply called Piano,