Browse content similar to 26/02/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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After the storm - the calm and the clearing up. | :00:00. | :00:07. | |
Not so much Doris, but those by-elections which have battered | :00:08. | :00:12. | |
and scattered some recent accepted truths about British politics. | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
This week, we'll be rootling through the debris. | :00:16. | :00:34. | |
Shami Chakrabati, one of Jeremy Corbyn's key | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
But the party that looks in deeper trouble this weekend isn't Labour | :00:41. | :00:46. | |
I'll be asking its deputy leader Peter Whittle. | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
Cockahoop after Copeland they claim to be the new party | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
Sir Patrick McLoughlin. with the Conservative chairman | :00:58. | :01:11. | |
star Hugh Jackman's been telling me about his swansong as the darkest | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
What we are talking about here is a legend, an icon. Wolverine saved the | :01:16. | :01:31. | |
world, he is a warrior and went into battle for us. He won, but he does | :01:32. | :01:32. | |
not feel like that. And I'm | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
joined live by one of post punk music scene, | :01:38. | :01:38. | |
Marc Almond. Reviewing the news today - | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
on the left in every sense, the commentator Paul Mason, | :01:45. | :01:55. | |
on the right the Tory And she's back and | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
she'll hold her own. The Brexit-confronting | :01:59. | :02:00. | |
campaigner Gina Miller. The Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, | :02:01. | :02:02. | |
has said he accepts some responsibility for defeat | :02:03. | :02:13. | |
in the Copeland by-election - but that he is determined to finish | :02:14. | :02:15. | |
the job he was elected In an article in The Sunday Mirror, | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
he urges his party to stand together He's expected to deliver a similar | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
message when he speaks to the Scottish Labour conference | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
today. The Conservative former | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
Deputy Prime Minister, Lord Heseltine, has said | :02:30. | :02:32. | |
he will rebel against the government when the House of Lords votes | :02:33. | :02:34. | |
on the bill giving Theresa May Writing in The Mail on Sunday, | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
the senior peer says he will support an opposition amendment demanding | :02:38. | :02:44. | |
that MPs get a meaningful vote President Trump has said he won't be | :02:45. | :02:46. | |
attending this years The news came in a tweet | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
by Donald Trump - in another sign of worsening relations | :02:52. | :03:00. | |
with the mainstream press. Only three other leaders before | :03:01. | :03:01. | |
Mr Trump have not attended the annual event which has been held | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
for more than a century. German police are waiting to speak | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
to a man who drove his car into a crowd in Heidelberg - | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
killing a 73-year-old man. The driver, who is German, was shot, | :03:13. | :03:14. | |
injured and arrested by police in a brief standoff after fleeing | :03:15. | :03:23. | |
the scene on foot. Final preparations are being made | :03:24. | :03:25. | |
for the Oscars ceremony, which takes With 14 nominations, | :03:26. | :03:28. | |
the musical La La Land is expected to be a big winner - | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
but the dramas Moonlight, and Manchester By The Sea, | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
are also tipped to do well. The next news on BBC One | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
is at one o'clock. The Observer taken over by events. | :03:43. | :04:01. | |
Jeremy Corbyn is told... He has taken some blame this morning. The | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
Mail on Sunday with the tragic story of a five-year-old girl who was four | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
minutes late for her doctors appointment, he did not see her and | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
she had an asthma attack and died. Other similarly difficult stories in | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
the Mail on Sunday today. The Sunday Times, "Benefits for migrants face | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
the axe", a complex 's proposals for the government, for foreign workers, | :04:26. | :04:33. | |
Visas and much else besides. Finally, The Sunday Express with | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
"Volcanic ridges of cesspit killer". This is probably the worst murder | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
story I have heard for a long time -- rages. This was a stinker in | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
every way. We need to start with the by-elections. We will be rooting | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
through the debris... Tim, ritual through the Daobry in The Observer? | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
Particularly striking is the analysis from James Morris -- Tim, | :05:00. | :05:07. | |
route through the debris. He understands the Labour Party well, | :05:08. | :05:10. | |
and some of those figures, labour lost Scotland. We know the Tories | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
ahead of Labour in Scotland. Jeremy Corbyn is speaking to the Labour | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
conference there? Yes. He needs to rally the troops. Labour is 15 | :05:21. | :05:27. | |
points behind the working-class voters, according to this. In terms | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
of the preferred Prime Minister, Jeremy Corbyn is 36 points behind | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
Theresa May. This is the caller Labour vote, and it is deserting it. | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
What is interesting about what James says, he does not just blame Jeremy | :05:43. | :05:49. | |
Corbyn, he says it began under Tony Blair and new Labour. Some of the | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
emphasis on Europe and immigration. There is the grizzled right, the | :05:56. | :06:01. | |
grizzled left? Yes, Tim Shipman in The Times, a lot of the Sunday | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
newspaper journalists clearly lacks sources at the centre of the story. | :06:08. | :06:14. | |
Tim's story is mainly about people who did not agree to speak to him | :06:15. | :06:17. | |
but it gets to the root of the problem, well put by a Labour | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
activist called Richard Angel, head of a progress group within Labour. | :06:24. | :06:31. | |
He basically says, look, Labour's problem is how do you win as a | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
centre party when you've never been it before? That's the problem that | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
people like me face who support Jeremy Corbyn and did support and | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
will carry on. I think that Copeland was the wake-up call, they buried | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
Ukip in Stoke, destroying Paul Nuttall but the wake-up call in | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
Copeland, you cannot go on. The NHS and issues which have been key for | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
20 years do not necessarily work in the new light of the situation. You | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
need to find a new set of answers. My question is, why do is that it | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
not connect any more? Brexit, we will talk about it, but it refrained | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
everything. So has the coming succession of Scotland from the UK, | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
I think it should happen. Many people in Labour think they can get | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
around these big existential issues, right and left, with the old songs. | :07:22. | :07:28. | |
I've been saying until we get a clear position voted on by the party | :07:29. | :07:30. | |
on Brexit and free movement committee will not make much | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
progress. Gina Miller, you let the fight for the Article 50 debate in | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
the House of Commons and the House of Lords can you are back at it | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
again, what is your first aura, from the Independent newspaper? On the | :07:44. | :07:49. | |
front page, -- your first story. They quoted me as saying that the | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
House of Lords needs to show backbone this week. These debates | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
are happening because of my case. We are exercising parliamentary | :07:59. | :08:00. | |
sovereignty and the will of the people does not negate the weight or | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
wisdom of the Houses of Parliament. That is what I'm fighting for in my | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
campaign which I launched this week. What the House of Lords will be | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
voting on and what you want, it is a slightly tougher promise in the | :08:17. | :08:19. | |
legislation, but the kind of vote at the end of this process... It's an | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
amendment. In the Sun newspaper, they talk about the Brexit ship, I | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
say that we need lifeboats on it. The amendment I am calling for and | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
hopefully the House of Lords will agree or pass this week, there | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
should be an amendment which says in 18 months' time, it is legally | :08:37. | :08:46. | |
required for the houses to have a vote on all options. And we are | :08:47. | :08:48. | |
seeing Lord Heseltine swinging back through the jungle after a long | :08:49. | :08:50. | |
period of silence... It's very interesting what he says. In the | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
article, he says, if public opinion in the UK changes over Brexit, there | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
needs to be some sort of new exit route, whether another referendum or | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
election. That's exactly what I am calling for, this boat in 18 months' | :09:05. | :09:10. | |
time. In this article in the mail, when we are out of all of the | :09:11. | :09:13. | |
elections that will happen in Europe, we could be in a different | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
place. Europe itself could be in a different place so we should have a | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
vote at that point. Jim, what is wrong with this? It's not the first | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
time that Lord Heseltine has caused trouble over Europe for a female | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
Tory Prime Minister! That's true! This is what he does. But what's | :09:30. | :09:36. | |
Gina has been saying to someone like David Cameron, I was not his number | :09:37. | :09:39. | |
one fan, but he clearly said before the referendum there would not be a | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
second vote, this is the one time we make a decision on Europe. Then, | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
that decision was taken. That this is not about a vote with the people | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
but Parliament doing their sovereign duty. This is Parliament potentially | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
and picking the vote of the people which I think is incredibly | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
dangerous. Why are they so frightened of Parliament having the | :10:03. | :10:05. | |
debate? I don't mind it, but Parliament need to respect what the | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
people decided on June the 23rd. What I regret, for someone like | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
Michael Heseltine, he has an enormous amount to offer for the | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
country on economic policy and strategy, particularly industry. If | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
anyone focuses on that, unfortunately, the whole debate in | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
Britain at the moment is so focused on Brexit... We need to broaden it. | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
Paul Mason? In a way, the foray around Copeland included something | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
that we learned from Stoke-on-Trent. When Labour went to their core | :10:37. | :10:39. | |
voters and said we will tell you, we need to, we are challenged by Ukip, | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
what Brexit means, only Labour engage with what Brexit meant. They | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
use standing there in the salons of London and at a party saying, let's | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
stop it, suppertime chit, they said, we will make it mean something for | :10:55. | :11:02. | |
you. They need to make sure they know the vote has happened. They can | :11:03. | :11:05. | |
veto it if we do not get what we want during the process... That is | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
what Michael Heseltine is offering you, in effect? He is right too, but | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
there are two different Brexits on offer. Nothing else. People need to | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
get their heads around that. I've supported your case, it is good, but | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
we need to say to people, do not think you can sabotage this. It's | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
not about sabotaging it. We need to trigger Article 50 as soon as | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
possible, Theresa May says unless it is triggered, we will not see that | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
hand. But we need to have this boat in 18 months. The other party, | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
interestingly, in trouble over Brexit, is Ukip itself -- we need to | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
have this vote in 18 months. They have both been on the show, saying | :11:50. | :11:52. | |
they are fed up with the current leadership of Ukip. It is | :11:53. | :11:58. | |
extraordinary, as you said in your introduction, Labour has internal | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
problems but Ukip is another case altogether! I think the fundamental | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
problem for Ukip is not just the Brexit issue taking away the Europe | :12:08. | :12:10. | |
issue from them, look at where Theresa May is repositioning the | :12:11. | :12:13. | |
Conservatives, more sceptical about big business and tough on | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
immigration. It's very different from where David Cameron was taking | :12:18. | :12:32. | |
the party. Ukip's grant has been taken out from underneath them. | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
There is also the cultural issue, the kinds of things that politics | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
are interested in. Like Shami Chakrabarti, coming on in the show | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
later, and mobile phones for prisoners? Yes, this story in the | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
Mail on Sunday talks about this. I have to say I find it incredible | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
that this should read... That this story is even in here. Of course | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
they should have mobile phones, one of the biggest problems in prisons | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
is drugs. There is proven evidence that the prison services cannot cope | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
with what is going on with drugs in prisons. Mobile phones have been | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
identified as one of the ways of prisoners getting drugs. We will | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
talk about that in a moment. There is a lot in The Papers we could be | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
talking about but one of the extraordinary spectator sports is | :13:21. | :13:22. | |
Donald Trump versus the American media? I'm afraid I cannot see this | :13:23. | :13:29. | |
as being in any way funny or ironic. This man has huge executive power, | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
and the office of American presidency is invested with 200 odd | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
years worth of executive Rabbitohs. Declaring war on the liberal media. | :13:40. | :13:42. | |
Effectively using the same terminology that the Nazis used, by | :13:43. | :13:50. | |
calling them the enemies of the people. A man who came to power on | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
fake news. A man who, even now, according to stories in these | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
papers, that he is trying to suppress, is trying to fix security | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
and intelligence services of the United States. He is declaring war | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
on the media. It's a very dangerous thing to do. I do not defend what he | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
is doing at all, I agree with everything you just said. But there | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
is a poll in Fox News... Which has not been banned. And is still | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
welcome in the White House. To their credit, a lot of their journalists | :14:22. | :14:24. | |
are standard with CNN and others, saying it is wrong. It was a poll of | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
Fox News viewers, Donald Trump is doing this because 45% trust the | :14:31. | :14:39. | |
Trump to tell the truth, only 42% reporters. Of course he is wrong... | :14:40. | :14:45. | |
Maybe the liberal, mainstream media have something fundamentally wrong? | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
I think what they got wrong is the assumption that facts when | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
arguments. The New York Times, one of the band newspapers, it is | :14:55. | :14:57. | |
sometimes unreadable for the amount of fact checking and caveats that | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
journalists are meant to put into it. Donald Trump's narrative is | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
rubbish. But it is not backed by fact. But it is also in motion. It | :15:08. | :15:15. | |
is about emotion -- emotion. Donald Trump taps into the emotions of the | :15:16. | :15:18. | |
people and if that is what they want, that is where the media | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
suffers. We have the Oscars tonight, they are expecting a huge number of | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
stars to make political statements. I think the stars will have to be | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
careful. It could be completely overboard but at the same time... | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
Donald Trump will enjoy that attention! Yes, but it is | :15:35. | :15:37. | |
interesting that activists feel they have two step in where others are | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
not standing up. It is strange and slightly disturbing. No actual is on | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
the sofa today but thank you all for an interesting and relevant paper | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
review, no fake news but just hard, crunchy facts. | :15:51. | :15:52. | |
Storm Doris proved a brutal, murderous and travel-disrupting | :15:53. | :15:55. | |
if mercifully brief visitor to these shores. | :15:56. | :15:56. | |
Nothing quite like Doris on the way but I have almost everything else | :15:57. | :16:12. | |
for you. Some wintry sunshine, some sunshine, but in western parts of | :16:13. | :16:15. | |
the country through today another spell of wet and windy weather. Not | :16:16. | :16:22. | |
as strong as Doris, but this cloud has been named storm UN, but not by | :16:23. | :16:29. | |
the UK Met Office, but by the Irish weather service because they are | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
concerned about effects across the Republic of Ireland. In the UK we | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
are seeing increasing wet weather spreading into Scotland, south-west | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
England, Wales. 60 mph gusts unexposed coasts in the west. My old | :16:43. | :16:49. | |
here, however cold air talking and across northern Scotland so some of | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
the rain here will start to turn to snow, and that rain and snow will | :16:54. | :16:56. | |
move northwards where we could see wind gusts up to 70 mph through | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
tonight. Rain across England and Wales but behind it's a real rush of | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
showers and as temperatures plunge with go see some icy stretches | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
tomorrow morning, particularly in north-western parts of the country. | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
Monday has just about everything, some sunshine and showers, some of | :17:14. | :17:20. | |
them heavy with hail and thunder. Wintry over higher ground and much | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
chillier feel. There's a lot going on over the few days. | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
Certainly is, at least the weather is exciting. | :17:30. | :17:31. | |
After his bruising defeat in the Stoke by-election, | :17:32. | :17:33. | |
Ukip's leader Paul Nuttall said he wasn't going anywhere, | :17:34. | :17:35. | |
which is at the very least ambiguous. | :17:36. | :17:36. | |
He's not around to tell us what he means but his deputy | :17:37. | :17:39. | |
Very nice to have you here but it would be even nicer to have Paul | :17:40. | :17:50. | |
Nuttall, what's happened to him? He had a trip booked after the | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
by-election and we insisted he go. If he had a trip booked as -- | :17:57. | :18:04. | |
assuming he presumed he wasn't going to win. No, given the gruelling time | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
he had been through and are particularly personal attack, | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
obviously wanted some time to himself. He had a miserable four | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
weeks, he's been called the purple Pinocchio, much mocked for Walter | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
Mitty fantasy life and so forth, lots of personal attacks and his | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
house, is he in the mood to stay on as you get leader? No question. Paul | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
was elected with the biggest mandate last year, and without question he | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
has united the party. Let's face it we had a rough time last year. And I | :18:41. | :18:48. | |
think you've still got a rough time. No, of course it is disappointing we | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
didn't win in Stoke but we are more united than ever and a real sense of | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
renewed purpose. Let me pick you up on those. You. You say you are more | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
united than ever, we have today Nigel Farage and Arron Banks saying | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
the party is being run worse than a stall in the market. Arron Banks | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
saying to you and Paul Nuttall, make me chairman and let me sort out this | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
party or I'm off with your money, what's your message to him? Firstly | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
we have a great young dynamic chairman in Paul Oakton. So you | :19:23. | :19:25. | |
don't want Arron Banks as your chairman? It would be an interesting | :19:26. | :19:34. | |
conversation to have. I have always been great for his free 's | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
contribution, of course is not the only one who supports us. If it | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
wants to take his money away there are other people, I wouldn't want | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
that to happen. These sorts of interventions happen all the time | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
with our party, it is part of politics. I think the differences | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
that with us people tend to see the kind of do or die situation in | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
virtually every controversy. This time round, they saw it with some | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
reason because Paul Nuttall, you could generally, had said again and | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
again we are going to replace Labour in the Midlands and the north of | :20:11. | :20:13. | |
England, we will sweep femicide, just you watch. I want to make Ukip | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
the patriotic party of working people, said Paul Nuttall. Nigel | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
Farage before the by-election said, I don't think anybody for one moment | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
can underplay just how important and absolutely fundamental that | :20:29. | :20:31. | |
by-election is for this future of Ukip. It matters and it matters | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
hugely and the truth is your chances of replacing Labour are now zero. | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
Fundamentally destroyed in a key seat you should have won. If there | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
was one mistake we made it worse that maybe Paul shouldn't have run | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
so early. He's only been leader for 12 weeks. Explain why that was a | :20:51. | :20:57. | |
mistake. Because people haven't got to know him well enough. Was he too | :20:58. | :21:04. | |
experienced for that role? No, but the overriding point you make is | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
that without question Ukip has an appeal for working class, patriotic | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
working-class people. We didn't win this time, there are many | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
by-election is coming up. When we talk about replacing Labour, about | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
120 years ago there was one Labour MP, Keir Hardie, and remained as one | :21:24. | :21:32. | |
Labour MP for a long time, it took about a generation. For all the | :21:33. | :21:35. | |
people who are constantly saying this is the end for Ukip, we are 15% | :21:36. | :21:41. | |
in the polls. When we had a general election and got 4 million votes, | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
that was 12%, we have increased. I admit, what is difficult as | :21:48. | :21:50. | |
translating that support with this kind of parliamentary system we have | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
into MPs, that's a challenge. That is the system we have and will have | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
for the foreseeable future. So we will keep | :22:01. | :22:12. | |
going on. Another 25 years before we see another Ukip MP? No, not at all. | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
Behind the analysis in the papers today is the desire of from some | :22:18. | :22:20. | |
parts of the media the desire to see Ukip go. But you as a party raised | :22:21. | :22:23. | |
people's expectations, you said we are going to replace Labour, just | :22:24. | :22:31. | |
you watch. This seat Stoke Central Brexit central, we are pouring in | :22:32. | :22:38. | |
resources and you got thumped. We were second, our vote went slightly | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
up, not by enough, I fully accept that. If you were down there you | :22:43. | :22:48. | |
would have seen how we still set the agenda. The Labour Party gave out | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
leaflets covered in the St George 's Cross saying we will control | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
migration. We are still making the agenda and making it nationally. | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
Except the wider problem for Ukip is surely that it is hard to see as Tim | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
Montgomery was saying, what you are actually for. Because after all, | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
Theresa May has picked up the immigration issue and control over | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
immigration, and made that central to the way she's dealing with | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
Brexit. The Labour Party has waved through Article 50 because they want | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
the will of the people to be heard. It is hard for Ukip to say to people | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
you are being betrayed or the establishment is against you. It is | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
not hard at all because Brexit hasn't happened yet. You are saying | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
that Theresa May has been saying of things that are bringing people on | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
and giving the Tories support. She was Home Secretary, very harsh on | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
migration, she has made harsh speeches but at the same time she | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
presided over huge increases, historically unprecedented increases | :23:53. | :23:55. | |
in migration. Absolutely but she said after the vote, we are going to | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
take back control of immigration, and she has put that central in | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
terms of the way she has negotiated. She has not said a thing. She talks | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
about it a hell of a lot, we are the party people know exactly where we | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
stand on migration, it is still the biggest issue, it hasn't gone away. | :24:15. | :24:20. | |
But we want a point style system like Australia and at the same time | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
we want, as well as an aptitude test, we want an aptitude test to | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
make sure people coming here I accept our values. These are huge | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
issues for people the Tories and Labour don't talk about. Thank you | :24:34. | :24:35. | |
very much indeed for speaking to us. He's played many leads in Hollywood | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
movies over the last 20 years but Hugh Jackman's defining role has | :24:40. | :24:42. | |
been Wolverine part But these mutant outsiders battling | :24:43. | :24:44. | |
to save the Earth were originally conceived as anti-prejudice icons | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
by New York cartoonists Anyway, I'm afraid fans will never | :24:50. | :24:51. | |
see Jackman play Wolverine again. He's bowing out with one | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
last hurrah, a darker, more reflective action film, | :24:56. | :24:57. | |
with a soundtrack to match. I play a mutant, so a kind | :24:58. | :25:05. | |
of enhanced human being. He has a very strong metal all over | :25:06. | :25:37. | |
his bones and claws that come out and he is virtually | :25:38. | :25:44. | |
indestructible. However, in this film we see him | :25:45. | :25:46. | |
in the winter of his life, not only my character | :25:47. | :25:49. | |
but Charles Xavier played by Patrick Stewart, who's also now the most | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
powerful brain suffering dementia. That's what happens to super heroes | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
in the winter of their life, and what happens after the battle, how | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
there's a line in the movie where he referenced shame, there's no | :26:04. | :26:06. | |
living with the killing. This film is set in the future, | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
but the relatively Trump's wall or somebody's wall | :26:11. | :26:13. | |
is running along the Mexican border, and at the end, | :26:14. | :26:16. | |
without giving things away, Canada You escape America into Canada, | :26:17. | :26:18. | |
so what's it saying, do you think, about | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
contemporary America? You know, it's a great question | :26:24. | :26:30. | |
and I want to be really clear. All those things about the wall, | :26:31. | :26:33. | |
they were all written into our script before all this | :26:34. | :26:36. | |
stuff started to happen. I do remember calling James Mangold, | :26:37. | :26:38. | |
and saying, "I think our script may have leaked | :26:39. | :26:41. | |
somewhere, I think someone But it's timely and I'm | :26:42. | :26:43. | |
thrilled that it's timely but, when it began, I'm | :26:44. | :26:46. | |
not sure if you know, was an allegory for the civil rights | :26:47. | :26:54. | |
movement so Patrick Stewart's character, Xavier, was | :26:55. | :26:57. | |
Martin Luther King, and Ian McKellen's character, | :26:58. | :26:59. | |
Magneto, was Malcom X. It was always about tolerance, | :27:00. | :27:01. | |
about discrimination, and it always kind of | :27:02. | :27:02. | |
had something to say. That's what differentiated | :27:03. | :27:04. | |
it in 1963 so we are It says a lot about | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
this character, who wants to shut down, | :27:08. | :27:10. | |
who wants to separate, who finds life and love too painful, | :27:11. | :27:12. | |
too hard, too This movie is very much | :27:13. | :27:14. | |
meditation about... worthwhile loving and embracing or | :27:15. | :27:24. | |
is it just easier to build a wall. And it's also a curiously knowing | :27:25. | :27:33. | |
movie because, as you say, all the stories came | :27:34. | :27:35. | |
out of the comic books, and there's character and the young girl are | :27:36. | :27:38. | |
leafing through a comic book and she You say, "That's not true, | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
that's a comic book." There is you as a comic | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
book character saying, "it can't be true, | :27:48. | :27:48. | |
it's in a comic book". It's a little weird, | :27:49. | :27:51. | |
very deliberate, something James Mangold, | :27:52. | :27:54. | |
the director, came up with and I loved it | :27:55. | :27:56. | |
because what we are talking about He's a warrior, he's gone | :27:57. | :27:59. | |
into battle for us and he's won but He's like probably a lot | :28:00. | :28:06. | |
of returned soldiers whose experience they don't | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
necessarily internally The other sort of superhero movie | :28:12. | :28:12. | |
that was very knowing, in a slightly different way, was | :28:13. | :28:22. | |
Deadpool, which took the mick out of And I just wonder, there's been talk | :28:23. | :28:24. | |
possibly of bringing back Logan one last time with a Deadpool | :28:25. | :28:31. | |
connection as well. Those two characters, | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
Deadpool and Logan, famously intertwined in the comic books - | :28:35. | :28:36. | |
they hate each other, they are archenemies and they are kind | :28:37. | :28:39. | |
of perfect counterparts. I knew two and a half | :28:40. | :28:42. | |
years ago that this was my last one, and I couldn't have | :28:43. | :28:48. | |
made this movie unless Someone else will play Wolverine, | :28:49. | :28:51. | |
but Ryan Reynolds has been camping outside my house | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
and he's there right now! OK, one historic character | :28:56. | :29:01. | |
is Jean Valjean. You came quite close | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
to an Oscar for that and I think the singing was never | :29:07. | :29:08. | |
recorded, it had to be I'm really glad I've | :29:09. | :29:34. | |
done things like hosting the Oscars live, I'm glad I've had | :29:35. | :29:43. | |
opening nights here at That kind of pressure | :29:44. | :29:46. | |
where you have got to All the press is in and | :29:47. | :29:49. | |
the success or failure when you host the Oscars | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
is on how you deliver on that day, not how | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
you will deliver four shows I may never sing that song again - | :29:58. | :29:59. | |
I'd better deliver today. The X-Men movies | :30:00. | :30:05. | |
have made you such a whatever you want, so what do | :30:06. | :30:06. | |
you want to do next? Being involved in stories that | :30:07. | :30:13. | |
I believe in, that I fight for, that I think | :30:14. | :30:16. | |
of something to say, that challenge me as an actor | :30:17. | :30:18. | |
is an addictive feeling. I haven't always felt | :30:19. | :30:21. | |
like this, but right now Thanks very much indeed | :30:22. | :30:23. | |
for talking to us. The central message | :30:24. | :30:32. | |
of Theresa May's brand of Toryism - and in her view, the Tory victory | :30:33. | :30:41. | |
in this week's Copeland by-election - is that it's the Conservatives | :30:42. | :30:43. | |
who best represent the interests But do the figures | :30:44. | :30:46. | |
really bear that out? As Tory MPs brace themselves | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
for new cuts in benefits to the disabled, the party chairman | :30:51. | :30:52. | |
Patrick McLoughlin joins me. Welcome, you are the quintessential | :30:53. | :31:05. | |
working-class Tory. Do you think the Tory party is now the party of the | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
bottom dog and the working class? I think what Theresa May is doing as | :31:11. | :31:13. | |
Prime Minister is trying to say to those parts of the country which | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
feel left behind that we've got to offer opportunities to them and | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
offer opportunities to every section of our society, irrespective of | :31:23. | :31:25. | |
where they come from, if they do the right thing. What was the problem | :31:26. | :31:31. | |
with the phrase "Just about managing?", there is a report in the | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
Sun newspaper that it is banned in government, and you cannot talk | :31:36. | :31:42. | |
about the JAMS any more. I'm not sure I believe everything that you | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
read in newspapers! What? Not in The Sun newspaper? Or in any! When | :31:48. | :31:53. | |
Theresa May entered Downing Street, she does want to... If you are | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
struggling to manage, I'm on your side. If you are in financial | :31:58. | :32:01. | |
problems, I'm on your side, I want to pick that up with you. An | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
interesting report this week from the Resolution Foundation, working | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
on official government figures. This is the forecast income growth during | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
the Parliament. The richest households, the green bed, going up | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
4% in real income growth. The poorest down by 16%. A devastating | :32:22. | :32:26. | |
indictment of a government claiming to be working on behalf of the | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
working people. One of the things we are doing, in April, the base rate | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
of tax, people earning less than ?11,000, they will not pay any | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
income tax at all. These are big issues... They are factored in at | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
the moment but lest well on this at the moment, are you embarrassed by | :32:45. | :32:47. | |
the graft? C if it comes into progression. -- lets see if it comes | :32:48. | :32:59. | |
into fruition. Those people getting below wages, we will reduce the tax | :33:00. | :33:04. | |
they pay. By and large, in the bottom quartile on that graph in | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
terms of income, you face a tough few years in this government? And | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
that is why we must ensure what we are doing as far as giving people | :33:13. | :33:15. | |
apprenticeships and helping people who are not working at the moment, | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
into work, we have record employment rates, and they will help people | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
across the board. Judge us on our record, not on what an organisation | :33:25. | :33:31. | |
says might happen in three years' time... Albeit based on official | :33:32. | :33:34. | |
figures? Because things will change. Let's look at things that you could | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
do. ?3 billion, thereabouts, was taken out of universal credit by | :33:40. | :33:42. | |
George Osborne which has a serious effect. I'm quitting the Resolution | :33:43. | :33:48. | |
Foundation again, but using government figures, a working couple | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
with two children, earning the living wage, will be ?1700 per year | :33:53. | :33:58. | |
worse off by 2020? We must reduce the deficit and still had a big | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
deficit in the country. Why on the backs of those people? We must look | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
at the whole area and reward those who work. That is what we are doing, | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
raising the threshold that you start paying income tax at, and look at | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
other measures. They are the things that will be looked at in the round | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
by the Chancellor, coming up to the budget in ten days. Can you look at | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
universal credit cuts again? The truth is, we are spending a lot of | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
money on benefits overall, and we need to balance the books and get | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
the deficit down. Iain Duncan Smith, no hand wringing lefty, I think you | :34:33. | :34:35. | |
would agree, sat in the chair when he resigned from the government, and | :34:36. | :34:41. | |
said it is not fair. Given the extra income for those at the top of the | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
heap, universal credit is not fair and must change. Can you look at it | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
again? He actually agreed to that when he was the Work and Pensions | :34:51. | :34:53. | |
Secretary, he did not object to changes being made then. I think | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
Theresa May and the Chancellor, and Damian Green, they will want to look | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
at all of these issues in the round. You think it will be looked at | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
again? We always keep all policies under review. This is the front page | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
of the Financial Times from Saturday, may faces disability | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
benefits battle. This is in all of their papers -- Theresa May. Massive | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
cuts to the welfare budgets, these are people having a tough time | :35:21. | :35:23. | |
already and you will take money that they thought they would get? As a | :35:24. | :35:28. | |
country we spend over ?50 billion per year supporting people who've | :35:29. | :35:31. | |
got disabilities in this country. I think overall we give a very | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
generous scheme, and there are changes which come about as a result | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
of tribunal 's and we must look at how it addresses the whole effect. | :35:42. | :35:45. | |
As far as supporting disabled people? Overall I think we should be | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
very proud in this country. We are taking ?3.7 billion away from them. | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
The disability rights UK, the lobbying body on this, they say new | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
regulations will hit disabled people and those with serious conditions | :36:00. | :36:02. | |
very hard. The department itself admits that these will include, for | :36:03. | :36:08. | |
double, those with learning disabilities, die abilities, | :36:09. | :36:10. | |
epilepsy, anxiety and dementia, those with dementia will lose money | :36:11. | :36:19. | |
under the government -- diabetes. We will listen to what people are | :36:20. | :36:22. | |
saying and look at proposals which come forward. But we need to | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
produce... Over ?60 billion are being spent every year as a country | :36:28. | :36:34. | |
and we need to balance the budget and reduce the deficit. Let me turn | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
to another issue. I do not know if you heard Gina Miller talking in the | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
paper review about the moment in the House of Lords and Lord Heseltine, | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
there's a push there to get written into legislation a much tougher | :36:48. | :36:50. | |
agreement for a further vote towards the end of the negotiation process | :36:51. | :36:55. | |
for Brexit. If that happens and the government loses in the House of | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
Lords, what will you do? We need to see how the bill evolves when it is | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
out the House of Lords. But it got one of the biggest majority a bill | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
has got on its third reading in the House of Commons and it has gone to | :37:10. | :37:12. | |
the House of Lords. The Prime Minister said that there would be a | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
vote when negotiations are concluded and the Prime Minister will not | :37:17. | :37:19. | |
conclude negotiations if she thinks she has a bad deal. Is it worth | :37:20. | :37:25. | |
having a fight about this? Well, I'm not sure we will see whether we will | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
have a fight or not... So you might allow the amended bill to stand? The | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
bill should go through as it comes from the elected House of Commons. I | :37:34. | :37:40. | |
found it interesting that Gina Miller was going on about | :37:41. | :37:43. | |
sovereignty, the House of Commons over woman you passed a bill based | :37:44. | :37:46. | |
on the referendum that said we should pull out of the EU -- | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
overwhelmingly passed a bill. We cannot start second guessing the | :37:53. | :37:58. | |
referendum. A lot of MPs and ordinary voters think if the | :37:59. | :38:01. | |
situation changes, there are changes to the economy, if we do not get the | :38:02. | :38:06. | |
deal that many people want to go through, in those circumstances | :38:07. | :38:08. | |
there should be some sort of exit route and slipway off the motorway? | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
The Prime Minister will not come back through the House of Commons | :38:14. | :38:20. | |
with a deal that she cannot recommend. So, that's what we've got | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
to do. Give the Prime Minister as much Flex ability in negotiations | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
over these next two years, not giving her a backstop into other | :38:30. | :38:32. | |
issues. We've talked about the by-elections during the programme. | :38:33. | :38:36. | |
One thing people thought, whether they were just about managing or | :38:37. | :38:40. | |
not, that the government was on their side about immigration and | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
control of it. Then they heard David Davis in a stone yet this week, | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
saying it would be years and years before we could persuade the British | :38:49. | :38:51. | |
people to do some jobs in agriculture -- in | :38:52. | :38:57. | |
Estonia. And not to expected downturn in immigration for some | :38:58. | :39:04. | |
years to come. Many people would be disturbed by that? We have figures | :39:05. | :39:07. | |
in the last week about a reduction as far as net immigration to a | :39:08. | :39:12. | |
country as far as previous figures were concerned. So, I think we need | :39:13. | :39:16. | |
to see how it is done and not take one small part of an completely out | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
of context. David is very committed to the Prime Minister's agenda which | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
is ensuring that we get control over our own borders, one of the biggest | :39:27. | :39:27. | |
issues in the referendum. Is it the case that you are looking | :39:28. | :39:36. | |
at a complex system of visas for migrants to stop people from taking | :39:37. | :39:40. | |
benefits? We are looking at a lot of things, which are being discussed, | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
when we can make announcements about what we will do, we will tell you | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
and the House of Commons too. After Copeland, how big are your ambitions | :39:52. | :39:54. | |
for taking on the Labour Party in the north and the Midlands? Copeland | :39:55. | :40:00. | |
was a fantastic result, both for the Prime Minister and Trudy Harrison, a | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
local candidate who brought a great deal of local expertise to the | :40:05. | :40:13. | |
campaign. I think it shows that all seats are ones that we will look at | :40:14. | :40:16. | |
and challenge hard in the general election. You would not expect me, | :40:17. | :40:22. | |
as the Conservative Party chairman, to say that. There is no numerical | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
target. We will target right across the board. The simple fact is, at | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
the moment, boundaries are being redrawn and the size of the House of | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
Commons is to be reduced. We are not sure where the boundaries will be. A | :40:36. | :40:39. | |
lot of talk about Donald Trump's visit, will he be an appropriate | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
guest at the Conservative Party conference this year? I don't know, | :40:44. | :40:49. | |
arrangements for the dates have not yet been finalised! But he is | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
certainly getting the media talking quite a lot about him! Patrick | :40:54. | :40:56. | |
McLoughlin, thank you for talking to us. | :40:57. | :40:58. | |
Now, coming up later, Andrew Neil will be talking | :40:59. | :41:00. | |
about those by-elections and more with Scottish Labour | :41:01. | :41:02. | |
leader Kezia Dugdale, and he'll be asking where next | :41:03. | :41:04. | |
for Ukip, with the MEP Patrick O'Flynn. | :41:05. | :41:06. | |
That's the Sunday Politics at 11 here on BBC One. | :41:07. | :41:12. | |
Now, Jeremy Corbyn was asked on Friday if he'd | :41:13. | :41:14. | |
considered that he might be the source of Labour's problems. | :41:15. | :41:17. | |
So, why did Labour suffer its worst by-election defeat for 50 years? | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
The shadow Attorney General Baroness Chakrabarti is with me. | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
Welcome, Shami Chakrabarti. We could have a very boring interview, where | :41:27. | :41:32. | |
I say it is all Jeremy Corbyn's fault and he has to go. And you say, | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
no. So we won't do that! And everybody wanders off and has a cup | :41:38. | :41:40. | |
of coffee! Let's be serious about it. How Depay hole do you think you | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
are in when you look at the Copeland result? I was there last weekend, | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
knocking on doors. I felt that Copeland is probably one of those | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
constituencies that was neglected by my own party over some years. It is | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
remote from London, it has changed its shape. Over many years. There is | :42:01. | :42:06. | |
the nuclear in, people have done very well from it. And, the people | :42:07. | :42:12. | |
left behind. -- there are people left behind. You cannot way people's | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
votes, you have to cherish them. We lost by 2000, but I believe that | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
when people see what Theresa May's hard Brexit looks like and when | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
people see an alternative vision coming from the more united Labour | :42:29. | :42:34. | |
Party, as I believe that we could key, they would change their minds. | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
Jeremy Corbyn basically said it was against the establishment, it | :42:39. | :42:41. | |
doesn't really make sense... It does, in Copeland. But if those | :42:42. | :42:46. | |
turning against the establishment, why would they vote for Theresa May | :42:47. | :42:52. | |
and the Conservative Party? In Copeland, Labour looks like the | :42:53. | :42:54. | |
establishment for a long time because they were represented by | :42:55. | :43:00. | |
Labour for a long time. There are peculiarities about that seat, like | :43:01. | :43:06. | |
our position on the nuclear industry, but I don't want to make | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
it specifically about Copeland. We have work to do and suffered from | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
disunity, two elections in the space of a year. We suffered from the fact | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
that our supporters were divided, like the country, over Brexit. It | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
has been a big issue for some time but now, I think once Article 50 is | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
triggered, as it will be, we have an opportunity to unite about things | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
that really matter to the lives of people. Like schools, hospitals, | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
jobs and benefits. Like terrible cuts in the disability benefits. | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
Something strange is happening here. On the NHS and is ability benefits, | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
you have messages where really people care about this but when | :43:47. | :43:52. | |
Labour talks about it, it does not cut through. Something is going | :43:53. | :43:55. | |
wrong between the Labour Party and the country. On cutting through, we | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
have suffered, as I say, from disunity. If we are always talking | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
about the leadership and fighting over it, it will not cut through. | :44:05. | :44:08. | |
Sometimes we have not had the most fair or balanced treatment in the | :44:09. | :44:11. | |
media, including the broadcast media. As you know, the left has | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
always said it is the media... I'm not blaming the media but the | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
disunity has been the focus was even on your programme last week, a few | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
days before a by-election in two Brexit seats, there was not a single | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
person on the programme speaking for the leadership. There was well | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
represented Labour MP in the paper review... And you have Lord | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
Mandelson... You are allowed whoever it you like, but if I may say so, it | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
was not the fairest balance a few days before a by-election into | :44:46. | :44:46. | |
Labour Brexit seats. Except law. days before a by-election into | :44:47. | :44:52. | |
Labour Brexit seats. Except Lord Mandelson and Tony Blair, and that | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
regime, they won majorities time and again. It is not about the terrible | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
regime but about the fact that representatives cannot way people's | :45:02. | :45:07. | |
votes any more. My experience, from talking to people in Copeland, they | :45:08. | :45:10. | |
felt they were neglected for too long. Taken for granted by the | :45:11. | :45:16. | |
Labour Party? For too long. That will not happen. Jack Remy is right, | :45:17. | :45:20. | |
when part of what worked for Labour in Stoke was listening to people and | :45:21. | :45:24. | |
listening to their concerns, not about Jeremy Corbyn but about the | :45:25. | :45:26. | |
fact that instead, people want social housing and, in Copeland, | :45:27. | :45:31. | |
people do not have adequate roads and now the hospital is under | :45:32. | :45:32. | |
threat. Let me read you Dave Prentice, an | :45:33. | :45:42. | |
apartment figure in the Labour movement who said, Stoke should | :45:43. | :45:50. | |
never have been in doubt. Party has inflicted seven years of painful | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
spending cuts on our country and is disaster in the NHS. Last year I | :45:55. | :46:01. | |
said Labour have never been further from government, five months on the | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
party has not moved an inch closer to Downing Street. Copeland is | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
indicative of a party sliding towards irrelevance, and that is on | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
your watch and Jeremy Corbyn's watch. What I would say to Dave | :46:14. | :46:17. | |
Prentice and some of these other great men of the left is it is time | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
to unite. Because constant attacks on the leadership, constant | :46:23. | :46:25. | |
leadership elections, constant divisions don't attack the issues | :46:26. | :46:34. | |
that would allowus to present an alternative vision. He was | :46:35. | :46:40. | |
describing what's happening, he was describing reality. Some people say | :46:41. | :46:43. | |
you are all frankly distanced from reality, hiding from what is really | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
going on. I don't accept that. I have just talked to you for some | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
minutes about what I think is happening in Copeland. People are | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
feeling neglected and left behind by their representatives, including | :46:59. | :47:00. | |
Labour representatives, for too long. Whether it is Jack Dromey or | :47:01. | :47:08. | |
Jeremy Corbyn, the party is in listening mode but it won't be able | :47:09. | :47:10. | |
to put that into practice unless it unites. We have seen a whole series | :47:11. | :47:16. | |
of excuses about Copeland. It is not an excuse. You yourself said I think | :47:17. | :47:23. | |
we have suffered from storm Doris because Labour voters don't have as | :47:24. | :47:31. | |
many cars and cannot vote. We have had by-election is the many years | :47:32. | :47:34. | |
and somehow members have come out and managed to win for many years. | :47:35. | :47:41. | |
There was a lower turnout in Copeland, and having been there | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
recently I know it is a very rural constituency, public transport isn't | :47:47. | :47:49. | |
great but that's one factor, and of course its not the entire | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
explanation. Let's look at Stoke where you defeated Ukip, however one | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
of the key claims of the Jeremy Corbyn movement has been... It is | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
not a movement. Pro-Corbyn people, as it were. That wing of the party, | :48:05. | :48:10. | |
by growing the party membership so hugely you put Labour into a | :48:11. | :48:17. | |
position where you are one of the biggest parties in Europe but you | :48:18. | :48:20. | |
don't be able to translate that into getting more voters out. The big | :48:21. | :48:26. | |
membership but fewer voters. What I would say about activating the | :48:27. | :48:29. | |
membership is that in Stoke hundreds of members from around the country | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
went to Stoke and I'm sure that was of help to the team there in getting | :48:34. | :48:38. | |
the vote out. Copeland a bit more remote, we had fewer people on the | :48:39. | :48:42. | |
ground but I do still think that having a mass membership can be | :48:43. | :48:47. | |
translated. Even if people recruit or persuade colleagues and family | :48:48. | :48:56. | |
members, that is part of... Stoke, more nonvoters than any constituency | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
in the general election just passed, again the number of people voting | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
Labour went down. That big part of the ship did not translate into | :49:05. | :49:07. | |
getting nonparty members into the ballot box. I think you are right | :49:08. | :49:13. | |
and the reasons partly we suffer from disunity, we suffered from | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
being split over Brexit. Our supporters and constituencies, like | :49:19. | :49:22. | |
the country, they are split but now we move beyond that divisive issue | :49:23. | :49:26. | |
the questions for this country are about what kind of place it will be. | :49:27. | :49:33. | |
It was going to be a place where dementia don't get the benefits the | :49:34. | :49:37. | |
tribunal say they can get because the Labour Party are party for the | :49:38. | :49:42. | |
super rich and not the working people? When it comes to explaining | :49:43. | :49:45. | |
what happened on looking forward, Tom Watson said the whole leadership | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
has to take a long, hard look in the mirror. If it is not Jeremy Corbyn | :49:51. | :49:55. | |
and Shami Chakrabarti and whoever to blame, then it must be the policies. | :49:56. | :50:00. | |
So where do you see the Labour Party changing its policy positions to | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
show it is listening to people? I think it is not just about policy, | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
sometimes it's about communication and sometimes it's about getting the | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
space and making the space to be heard. We have got some wonderful | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
Shadow Cabinet colleagues who I rarely see get the airtime they | :50:18. | :50:23. | |
deserve. Abby Abrahams, a wonderful Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary, | :50:24. | :50:27. | |
Rebecca Long Bailey on business, a lot of the women actually because | :50:28. | :50:30. | |
it's a very female Shadow Cabinet and it would be nice to have those | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
voices heard on your programme. We have them on from time to time, we | :50:36. | :50:39. | |
have everyone on from time to time. No doubt more in the future. One of | :50:40. | :50:45. | |
the other things is the suggestion the Labour Party in London, the | :50:46. | :50:50. | |
Metropolitan elite are out of touch on kind of cultural and security | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
issues from Labour voters. You saw the story in the mail on Sunday | :50:55. | :51:00. | |
today about mobile phones. Did you say that? Know, and even the Mail on | :51:01. | :51:05. | |
Sunday in that peace talks about alleged alleged alleged, which is | :51:06. | :51:10. | |
not something you did in your crunchy hard facts paper review so | :51:11. | :51:16. | |
that is an apocryphal story. Mobile phones are not just a problem in | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
prison, they are clearly a problem in militias hands in the Palace of | :51:21. | :51:25. | |
Westminster as well. And you never wanted mobile phones to stay in the | :51:26. | :51:30. | |
hands of... The other thing you have been attacked for in the press | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
recently is being jubilant and enthusiastic when Mr Fidler was | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
released from Guantanamo Bay, he then went on and changed his name | :51:39. | :51:44. | |
and blew himself up we are told working for Isis in Syria. How did | :51:45. | :51:50. | |
you feel about that? I campaigned for the closure of Guantanamo and | :51:51. | :51:53. | |
short of that I campaigned for Britons to be returned from | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
Guantanamo and I did that alongside for example the Mail on Sunday. That | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
was my position and remains my position. That's nothing about being | :52:03. | :52:07. | |
jubilant about individuals. One of the things about internment as a | :52:08. | :52:10. | |
policy is you have no idea whether individuals concerned are guilty or | :52:11. | :52:16. | |
innocent and my belief remains that interning people without trial and | :52:17. | :52:20. | |
torturing them is a recruiting Sergeant for terrorism. Even though | :52:21. | :52:27. | |
in this case someone who was clearly dangerous was left out? If you are | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
not dangerous before you get interned and mistreated, you are | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
more likely to be dangerous afterwards. It was a bad policy in | :52:36. | :52:38. | |
Northern Ireland and remains a really bad policy in Guantanamo Bay. | :52:39. | :52:43. | |
Final question on the by-election results. I've talked to a lot of | :52:44. | :52:48. | |
people inside the Labour Party across the party and there's a lot | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
of real anxiety and fear about where the Labour Party is going, and they | :52:53. | :52:57. | |
say again and again, and the leadership is in denial. I have | :52:58. | :53:03. | |
tried to speak about the real issue is going back a long time, I don't | :53:04. | :53:07. | |
consider myself to be in denial, but I think some of the people you are | :53:08. | :53:12. | |
talking to need to take their share of the collective responsibility as | :53:13. | :53:16. | |
well. If we unite and concentrate on going forward, on what we should be, | :53:17. | :53:20. | |
which is about part of it goes back to its roots, a party of equality, | :53:21. | :53:26. | |
for the NHS, schools and hospitals and disability benefits for ordinary | :53:27. | :53:33. | |
people, we will do very much better. Just in case Rebecca Long Bailey is | :53:34. | :53:35. | |
watching this programme, she has been invited on the programme and so | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
far has been unable to come. I will pass that on. Thank you, we are | :53:40. | :53:45. | |
almost out of time today. But before we leave you I'm | :53:46. | :53:48. | |
delighted to say we've got a true Ever since the early 80s, | :53:49. | :53:51. | |
Marc Almond has provided a unique soundtrack to surviving a crazy | :53:52. | :53:55. | |
world of love and heartache. Solo and with Soft Cell he's had | :53:56. | :53:58. | |
countless hits such as these... # Sometimes I feel I've got to | :53:59. | :54:10. | |
# Runaway, I've got to # Getaway from the pain you drive | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
into the heart of me. # Say hello, say goodbye # | :54:15. | :54:24. | |
# Something's gotten hold of my heart | :54:25. | :54:26. | |
# Something's gotten into my life and my senses apart | :54:27. | :54:37. | |
Soft Cells' greatest hits will be released next month. | :54:38. | :54:39. | |
Before he heads off on a national tour, the man himself | :54:40. | :54:42. | |
It's great to see you. You had a nasty head injury, you came off the | :54:43. | :54:53. | |
back of a motorbike, are you all right? I'm fine, it was about 15 | :54:54. | :54:57. | |
years ago and it seems like all that time has gone since then, which is | :54:58. | :55:06. | |
why I do good work for Headway. So do I. You will be singing one of | :55:07. | :55:13. | |
your great songs, one that you wrote yourself, a kind of old-fashioned | :55:14. | :55:23. | |
ballad. I think it is probably Soft Cell's first real song. When I had | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
in mind, I wrote the lyrics about kind of a politician's illicit | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
affair with shall we say an exotic dancer and how he treats her very | :55:33. | :55:41. | |
badly. Sounds like Appletree Yard! Set in Soho, the pink flamingo. We | :55:42. | :55:49. | |
are looking forward to it very much. Hits And Pieces out on the 15th of | :55:50. | :55:53. | |
March. from Nicky Campbell about what's | :55:54. | :56:01. | |
coming up after this programme. At ten o'clock we will be talking | :56:02. | :56:14. | |
about Islam, do we represent it, reincarnation, and marriage. See you | :56:15. | :56:15. | |
at ten on BBC One. Thanks Nicky, now as promised | :56:16. | :56:18. | |
here to sing us out is Marc Almond with the classic Say Hello, | :56:19. | :56:21. | |
Wave Goodbye. # Crying in the rain | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
of the Pink Flamingo # It was a kind | :56:26. | :56:32. | |
of so-so love and # I'm gonna make sure | :56:33. | :56:37. | |
it never happens again # You and I, it had to be | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
the standing joke of the year # You were a sleep around, | :56:42. | :56:53. | |
a lost-and-found, and not for me # I fear I tried to make it work, | :56:54. | :56:57. | |
you in a cocktail skirt, # I don't belong to you, | :56:58. | :57:08. | |
you see # Take a look at my | :57:09. | :57:19. | |
face for the last time # I never knew you, you never | :57:20. | :57:26. | |
knew me # I can see the make-up sliding | :57:27. | :57:30. | |
down # Hey little girl, | :57:31. | :57:58. | |
you will always make-up, # Well, I'll find someone that's not | :57:59. | :58:00. | |
going cheap in the sales # A nice little housewife, | :58:01. | :58:11. | |
who'll give me a steady life # I don't belong to you, | :58:12. | :58:15. | |
you see # Take a look at my | :58:16. | :58:30. | |
face for the last time # I never knew you, you never | :58:31. | :58:39. | |
knew me | :58:40. | :58:43. |