26/02/2017 The Andrew Marr Show


26/02/2017

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After the storm - the calm and the clearing up.

:00:00.:00:07.

Not so much Doris, but those by-elections which have battered

:00:08.:00:12.

and scattered some recent accepted truths about British politics.

:00:13.:00:15.

This week, we'll be rootling through the debris.

:00:16.:00:34.

Shami Chakrabati, one of Jeremy Corbyn's key

:00:35.:00:40.

But the party that looks in deeper trouble this weekend isn't Labour

:00:41.:00:46.

I'll be asking its deputy leader Peter Whittle.

:00:47.:00:52.

Cockahoop after Copeland they claim to be the new party

:00:53.:00:57.

Sir Patrick McLoughlin. with the Conservative chairman

:00:58.:01:11.

star Hugh Jackman's been telling me about his swansong as the darkest

:01:12.:01:15.

What we are talking about here is a legend, an icon. Wolverine saved the

:01:16.:01:31.

world, he is a warrior and went into battle for us. He won, but he does

:01:32.:01:32.

not feel like that. And I'm

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joined live by one of post punk music scene,

:01:38.:01:38.

Marc Almond. Reviewing the news today -

:01:39.:01:44.

on the left in every sense, the commentator Paul Mason,

:01:45.:01:55.

on the right the Tory And she's back and

:01:56.:01:58.

she'll hold her own. The Brexit-confronting

:01:59.:02:00.

campaigner Gina Miller. The Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn,

:02:01.:02:02.

has said he accepts some responsibility for defeat

:02:03.:02:13.

in the Copeland by-election - but that he is determined to finish

:02:14.:02:15.

the job he was elected In an article in The Sunday Mirror,

:02:16.:02:18.

he urges his party to stand together He's expected to deliver a similar

:02:19.:02:23.

message when he speaks to the Scottish Labour conference

:02:24.:02:26.

today. The Conservative former

:02:27.:02:29.

Deputy Prime Minister, Lord Heseltine, has said

:02:30.:02:32.

he will rebel against the government when the House of Lords votes

:02:33.:02:34.

on the bill giving Theresa May Writing in The Mail on Sunday,

:02:35.:02:37.

the senior peer says he will support an opposition amendment demanding

:02:38.:02:44.

that MPs get a meaningful vote President Trump has said he won't be

:02:45.:02:46.

attending this years The news came in a tweet

:02:47.:02:51.

by Donald Trump - in another sign of worsening relations

:02:52.:03:00.

with the mainstream press. Only three other leaders before

:03:01.:03:01.

Mr Trump have not attended the annual event which has been held

:03:02.:03:04.

for more than a century. German police are waiting to speak

:03:05.:03:08.

to a man who drove his car into a crowd in Heidelberg -

:03:09.:03:12.

killing a 73-year-old man. The driver, who is German, was shot,

:03:13.:03:14.

injured and arrested by police in a brief standoff after fleeing

:03:15.:03:23.

the scene on foot. Final preparations are being made

:03:24.:03:25.

for the Oscars ceremony, which takes With 14 nominations,

:03:26.:03:28.

the musical La La Land is expected to be a big winner -

:03:29.:03:33.

but the dramas Moonlight, and Manchester By The Sea,

:03:34.:03:37.

are also tipped to do well. The next news on BBC One

:03:38.:03:42.

is at one o'clock. The Observer taken over by events.

:03:43.:04:01.

Jeremy Corbyn is told... He has taken some blame this morning. The

:04:02.:04:05.

Mail on Sunday with the tragic story of a five-year-old girl who was four

:04:06.:04:09.

minutes late for her doctors appointment, he did not see her and

:04:10.:04:14.

she had an asthma attack and died. Other similarly difficult stories in

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the Mail on Sunday today. The Sunday Times, "Benefits for migrants face

:04:20.:04:25.

the axe", a complex 's proposals for the government, for foreign workers,

:04:26.:04:33.

Visas and much else besides. Finally, The Sunday Express with

:04:34.:04:37.

"Volcanic ridges of cesspit killer". This is probably the worst murder

:04:38.:04:43.

story I have heard for a long time -- rages. This was a stinker in

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every way. We need to start with the by-elections. We will be rooting

:04:50.:04:53.

through the debris... Tim, ritual through the Daobry in The Observer?

:04:54.:04:59.

Particularly striking is the analysis from James Morris -- Tim,

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route through the debris. He understands the Labour Party well,

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and some of those figures, labour lost Scotland. We know the Tories

:05:11.:05:15.

ahead of Labour in Scotland. Jeremy Corbyn is speaking to the Labour

:05:16.:05:20.

conference there? Yes. He needs to rally the troops. Labour is 15

:05:21.:05:27.

points behind the working-class voters, according to this. In terms

:05:28.:05:32.

of the preferred Prime Minister, Jeremy Corbyn is 36 points behind

:05:33.:05:37.

Theresa May. This is the caller Labour vote, and it is deserting it.

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What is interesting about what James says, he does not just blame Jeremy

:05:43.:05:49.

Corbyn, he says it began under Tony Blair and new Labour. Some of the

:05:50.:05:55.

emphasis on Europe and immigration. There is the grizzled right, the

:05:56.:06:01.

grizzled left? Yes, Tim Shipman in The Times, a lot of the Sunday

:06:02.:06:07.

newspaper journalists clearly lacks sources at the centre of the story.

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Tim's story is mainly about people who did not agree to speak to him

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but it gets to the root of the problem, well put by a Labour

:06:18.:06:23.

activist called Richard Angel, head of a progress group within Labour.

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He basically says, look, Labour's problem is how do you win as a

:06:32.:06:35.

centre party when you've never been it before? That's the problem that

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people like me face who support Jeremy Corbyn and did support and

:06:40.:06:44.

will carry on. I think that Copeland was the wake-up call, they buried

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Ukip in Stoke, destroying Paul Nuttall but the wake-up call in

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Copeland, you cannot go on. The NHS and issues which have been key for

:06:54.:06:59.

20 years do not necessarily work in the new light of the situation. You

:07:00.:07:03.

need to find a new set of answers. My question is, why do is that it

:07:04.:07:07.

not connect any more? Brexit, we will talk about it, but it refrained

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everything. So has the coming succession of Scotland from the UK,

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I think it should happen. Many people in Labour think they can get

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around these big existential issues, right and left, with the old songs.

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I've been saying until we get a clear position voted on by the party

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on Brexit and free movement committee will not make much

:07:31.:07:36.

progress. Gina Miller, you let the fight for the Article 50 debate in

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the House of Commons and the House of Lords can you are back at it

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again, what is your first aura, from the Independent newspaper? On the

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front page, -- your first story. They quoted me as saying that the

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House of Lords needs to show backbone this week. These debates

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are happening because of my case. We are exercising parliamentary

:07:59.:08:00.

sovereignty and the will of the people does not negate the weight or

:08:01.:08:06.

wisdom of the Houses of Parliament. That is what I'm fighting for in my

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campaign which I launched this week. What the House of Lords will be

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voting on and what you want, it is a slightly tougher promise in the

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legislation, but the kind of vote at the end of this process... It's an

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amendment. In the Sun newspaper, they talk about the Brexit ship, I

:08:25.:08:28.

say that we need lifeboats on it. The amendment I am calling for and

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hopefully the House of Lords will agree or pass this week, there

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should be an amendment which says in 18 months' time, it is legally

:08:37.:08:46.

required for the houses to have a vote on all options. And we are

:08:47.:08:48.

seeing Lord Heseltine swinging back through the jungle after a long

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period of silence... It's very interesting what he says. In the

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article, he says, if public opinion in the UK changes over Brexit, there

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needs to be some sort of new exit route, whether another referendum or

:09:01.:09:04.

election. That's exactly what I am calling for, this boat in 18 months'

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time. In this article in the mail, when we are out of all of the

:09:11.:09:13.

elections that will happen in Europe, we could be in a different

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place. Europe itself could be in a different place so we should have a

:09:18.:09:21.

vote at that point. Jim, what is wrong with this? It's not the first

:09:22.:09:25.

time that Lord Heseltine has caused trouble over Europe for a female

:09:26.:09:29.

Tory Prime Minister! That's true! This is what he does. But what's

:09:30.:09:36.

Gina has been saying to someone like David Cameron, I was not his number

:09:37.:09:39.

one fan, but he clearly said before the referendum there would not be a

:09:40.:09:45.

second vote, this is the one time we make a decision on Europe. Then,

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that decision was taken. That this is not about a vote with the people

:09:50.:09:54.

but Parliament doing their sovereign duty. This is Parliament potentially

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and picking the vote of the people which I think is incredibly

:09:58.:10:02.

dangerous. Why are they so frightened of Parliament having the

:10:03.:10:05.

debate? I don't mind it, but Parliament need to respect what the

:10:06.:10:10.

people decided on June the 23rd. What I regret, for someone like

:10:11.:10:13.

Michael Heseltine, he has an enormous amount to offer for the

:10:14.:10:19.

country on economic policy and strategy, particularly industry. If

:10:20.:10:22.

anyone focuses on that, unfortunately, the whole debate in

:10:23.:10:26.

Britain at the moment is so focused on Brexit... We need to broaden it.

:10:27.:10:31.

Paul Mason? In a way, the foray around Copeland included something

:10:32.:10:36.

that we learned from Stoke-on-Trent. When Labour went to their core

:10:37.:10:39.

voters and said we will tell you, we need to, we are challenged by Ukip,

:10:40.:10:44.

what Brexit means, only Labour engage with what Brexit meant. They

:10:45.:10:49.

use standing there in the salons of London and at a party saying, let's

:10:50.:10:54.

stop it, suppertime chit, they said, we will make it mean something for

:10:55.:11:02.

you. They need to make sure they know the vote has happened. They can

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veto it if we do not get what we want during the process... That is

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what Michael Heseltine is offering you, in effect? He is right too, but

:11:11.:11:15.

there are two different Brexits on offer. Nothing else. People need to

:11:16.:11:20.

get their heads around that. I've supported your case, it is good, but

:11:21.:11:25.

we need to say to people, do not think you can sabotage this. It's

:11:26.:11:30.

not about sabotaging it. We need to trigger Article 50 as soon as

:11:31.:11:34.

possible, Theresa May says unless it is triggered, we will not see that

:11:35.:11:38.

hand. But we need to have this boat in 18 months. The other party,

:11:39.:11:44.

interestingly, in trouble over Brexit, is Ukip itself -- we need to

:11:45.:11:49.

have this vote in 18 months. They have both been on the show, saying

:11:50.:11:52.

they are fed up with the current leadership of Ukip. It is

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extraordinary, as you said in your introduction, Labour has internal

:11:59.:12:02.

problems but Ukip is another case altogether! I think the fundamental

:12:03.:12:07.

problem for Ukip is not just the Brexit issue taking away the Europe

:12:08.:12:10.

issue from them, look at where Theresa May is repositioning the

:12:11.:12:13.

Conservatives, more sceptical about big business and tough on

:12:14.:12:17.

immigration. It's very different from where David Cameron was taking

:12:18.:12:32.

the party. Ukip's grant has been taken out from underneath them.

:12:33.:12:36.

There is also the cultural issue, the kinds of things that politics

:12:37.:12:40.

are interested in. Like Shami Chakrabarti, coming on in the show

:12:41.:12:44.

later, and mobile phones for prisoners? Yes, this story in the

:12:45.:12:49.

Mail on Sunday talks about this. I have to say I find it incredible

:12:50.:12:54.

that this should read... That this story is even in here. Of course

:12:55.:12:58.

they should have mobile phones, one of the biggest problems in prisons

:12:59.:13:04.

is drugs. There is proven evidence that the prison services cannot cope

:13:05.:13:07.

with what is going on with drugs in prisons. Mobile phones have been

:13:08.:13:11.

identified as one of the ways of prisoners getting drugs. We will

:13:12.:13:16.

talk about that in a moment. There is a lot in The Papers we could be

:13:17.:13:20.

talking about but one of the extraordinary spectator sports is

:13:21.:13:22.

Donald Trump versus the American media? I'm afraid I cannot see this

:13:23.:13:29.

as being in any way funny or ironic. This man has huge executive power,

:13:30.:13:34.

and the office of American presidency is invested with 200 odd

:13:35.:13:39.

years worth of executive Rabbitohs. Declaring war on the liberal media.

:13:40.:13:42.

Effectively using the same terminology that the Nazis used, by

:13:43.:13:50.

calling them the enemies of the people. A man who came to power on

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fake news. A man who, even now, according to stories in these

:13:56.:13:59.

papers, that he is trying to suppress, is trying to fix security

:14:00.:14:03.

and intelligence services of the United States. He is declaring war

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on the media. It's a very dangerous thing to do. I do not defend what he

:14:08.:14:12.

is doing at all, I agree with everything you just said. But there

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is a poll in Fox News... Which has not been banned. And is still

:14:18.:14:21.

welcome in the White House. To their credit, a lot of their journalists

:14:22.:14:24.

are standard with CNN and others, saying it is wrong. It was a poll of

:14:25.:14:30.

Fox News viewers, Donald Trump is doing this because 45% trust the

:14:31.:14:39.

Trump to tell the truth, only 42% reporters. Of course he is wrong...

:14:40.:14:45.

Maybe the liberal, mainstream media have something fundamentally wrong?

:14:46.:14:49.

I think what they got wrong is the assumption that facts when

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arguments. The New York Times, one of the band newspapers, it is

:14:55.:14:57.

sometimes unreadable for the amount of fact checking and caveats that

:14:58.:15:02.

journalists are meant to put into it. Donald Trump's narrative is

:15:03.:15:07.

rubbish. But it is not backed by fact. But it is also in motion. It

:15:08.:15:15.

is about emotion -- emotion. Donald Trump taps into the emotions of the

:15:16.:15:18.

people and if that is what they want, that is where the media

:15:19.:15:22.

suffers. We have the Oscars tonight, they are expecting a huge number of

:15:23.:15:26.

stars to make political statements. I think the stars will have to be

:15:27.:15:30.

careful. It could be completely overboard but at the same time...

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Donald Trump will enjoy that attention! Yes, but it is

:15:35.:15:37.

interesting that activists feel they have two step in where others are

:15:38.:15:42.

not standing up. It is strange and slightly disturbing. No actual is on

:15:43.:15:46.

the sofa today but thank you all for an interesting and relevant paper

:15:47.:15:50.

review, no fake news but just hard, crunchy facts.

:15:51.:15:52.

Storm Doris proved a brutal, murderous and travel-disrupting

:15:53.:15:55.

if mercifully brief visitor to these shores.

:15:56.:15:56.

Nothing quite like Doris on the way but I have almost everything else

:15:57.:16:12.

for you. Some wintry sunshine, some sunshine, but in western parts of

:16:13.:16:15.

the country through today another spell of wet and windy weather. Not

:16:16.:16:22.

as strong as Doris, but this cloud has been named storm UN, but not by

:16:23.:16:29.

the UK Met Office, but by the Irish weather service because they are

:16:30.:16:33.

concerned about effects across the Republic of Ireland. In the UK we

:16:34.:16:37.

are seeing increasing wet weather spreading into Scotland, south-west

:16:38.:16:42.

England, Wales. 60 mph gusts unexposed coasts in the west. My old

:16:43.:16:49.

here, however cold air talking and across northern Scotland so some of

:16:50.:16:53.

the rain here will start to turn to snow, and that rain and snow will

:16:54.:16:56.

move northwards where we could see wind gusts up to 70 mph through

:16:57.:17:01.

tonight. Rain across England and Wales but behind it's a real rush of

:17:02.:17:05.

showers and as temperatures plunge with go see some icy stretches

:17:06.:17:09.

tomorrow morning, particularly in north-western parts of the country.

:17:10.:17:13.

Monday has just about everything, some sunshine and showers, some of

:17:14.:17:20.

them heavy with hail and thunder. Wintry over higher ground and much

:17:21.:17:24.

chillier feel. There's a lot going on over the few days.

:17:25.:17:29.

Certainly is, at least the weather is exciting.

:17:30.:17:31.

After his bruising defeat in the Stoke by-election,

:17:32.:17:33.

Ukip's leader Paul Nuttall said he wasn't going anywhere,

:17:34.:17:35.

which is at the very least ambiguous.

:17:36.:17:36.

He's not around to tell us what he means but his deputy

:17:37.:17:39.

Very nice to have you here but it would be even nicer to have Paul

:17:40.:17:50.

Nuttall, what's happened to him? He had a trip booked after the

:17:51.:17:56.

by-election and we insisted he go. If he had a trip booked as --

:17:57.:18:04.

assuming he presumed he wasn't going to win. No, given the gruelling time

:18:05.:18:10.

he had been through and are particularly personal attack,

:18:11.:18:15.

obviously wanted some time to himself. He had a miserable four

:18:16.:18:20.

weeks, he's been called the purple Pinocchio, much mocked for Walter

:18:21.:18:25.

Mitty fantasy life and so forth, lots of personal attacks and his

:18:26.:18:30.

house, is he in the mood to stay on as you get leader? No question. Paul

:18:31.:18:35.

was elected with the biggest mandate last year, and without question he

:18:36.:18:40.

has united the party. Let's face it we had a rough time last year. And I

:18:41.:18:48.

think you've still got a rough time. No, of course it is disappointing we

:18:49.:18:52.

didn't win in Stoke but we are more united than ever and a real sense of

:18:53.:18:57.

renewed purpose. Let me pick you up on those. You. You say you are more

:18:58.:19:01.

united than ever, we have today Nigel Farage and Arron Banks saying

:19:02.:19:07.

the party is being run worse than a stall in the market. Arron Banks

:19:08.:19:12.

saying to you and Paul Nuttall, make me chairman and let me sort out this

:19:13.:19:17.

party or I'm off with your money, what's your message to him? Firstly

:19:18.:19:22.

we have a great young dynamic chairman in Paul Oakton. So you

:19:23.:19:25.

don't want Arron Banks as your chairman? It would be an interesting

:19:26.:19:34.

conversation to have. I have always been great for his free 's

:19:35.:19:38.

contribution, of course is not the only one who supports us. If it

:19:39.:19:42.

wants to take his money away there are other people, I wouldn't want

:19:43.:19:46.

that to happen. These sorts of interventions happen all the time

:19:47.:19:51.

with our party, it is part of politics. I think the differences

:19:52.:19:56.

that with us people tend to see the kind of do or die situation in

:19:57.:20:01.

virtually every controversy. This time round, they saw it with some

:20:02.:20:06.

reason because Paul Nuttall, you could generally, had said again and

:20:07.:20:10.

again we are going to replace Labour in the Midlands and the north of

:20:11.:20:13.

England, we will sweep femicide, just you watch. I want to make Ukip

:20:14.:20:19.

the patriotic party of working people, said Paul Nuttall. Nigel

:20:20.:20:23.

Farage before the by-election said, I don't think anybody for one moment

:20:24.:20:28.

can underplay just how important and absolutely fundamental that

:20:29.:20:31.

by-election is for this future of Ukip. It matters and it matters

:20:32.:20:37.

hugely and the truth is your chances of replacing Labour are now zero.

:20:38.:20:42.

Fundamentally destroyed in a key seat you should have won. If there

:20:43.:20:47.

was one mistake we made it worse that maybe Paul shouldn't have run

:20:48.:20:50.

so early. He's only been leader for 12 weeks. Explain why that was a

:20:51.:20:57.

mistake. Because people haven't got to know him well enough. Was he too

:20:58.:21:04.

experienced for that role? No, but the overriding point you make is

:21:05.:21:08.

that without question Ukip has an appeal for working class, patriotic

:21:09.:21:14.

working-class people. We didn't win this time, there are many

:21:15.:21:18.

by-election is coming up. When we talk about replacing Labour, about

:21:19.:21:23.

120 years ago there was one Labour MP, Keir Hardie, and remained as one

:21:24.:21:32.

Labour MP for a long time, it took about a generation. For all the

:21:33.:21:35.

people who are constantly saying this is the end for Ukip, we are 15%

:21:36.:21:41.

in the polls. When we had a general election and got 4 million votes,

:21:42.:21:47.

that was 12%, we have increased. I admit, what is difficult as

:21:48.:21:50.

translating that support with this kind of parliamentary system we have

:21:51.:21:55.

into MPs, that's a challenge. That is the system we have and will have

:21:56.:22:00.

for the foreseeable future. So we will keep

:22:01.:22:12.

going on. Another 25 years before we see another Ukip MP? No, not at all.

:22:13.:22:17.

Behind the analysis in the papers today is the desire of from some

:22:18.:22:20.

parts of the media the desire to see Ukip go. But you as a party raised

:22:21.:22:23.

people's expectations, you said we are going to replace Labour, just

:22:24.:22:31.

you watch. This seat Stoke Central Brexit central, we are pouring in

:22:32.:22:38.

resources and you got thumped. We were second, our vote went slightly

:22:39.:22:42.

up, not by enough, I fully accept that. If you were down there you

:22:43.:22:48.

would have seen how we still set the agenda. The Labour Party gave out

:22:49.:22:52.

leaflets covered in the St George 's Cross saying we will control

:22:53.:22:57.

migration. We are still making the agenda and making it nationally.

:22:58.:23:01.

Except the wider problem for Ukip is surely that it is hard to see as Tim

:23:02.:23:06.

Montgomery was saying, what you are actually for. Because after all,

:23:07.:23:11.

Theresa May has picked up the immigration issue and control over

:23:12.:23:15.

immigration, and made that central to the way she's dealing with

:23:16.:23:19.

Brexit. The Labour Party has waved through Article 50 because they want

:23:20.:23:23.

the will of the people to be heard. It is hard for Ukip to say to people

:23:24.:23:28.

you are being betrayed or the establishment is against you. It is

:23:29.:23:32.

not hard at all because Brexit hasn't happened yet. You are saying

:23:33.:23:37.

that Theresa May has been saying of things that are bringing people on

:23:38.:23:43.

and giving the Tories support. She was Home Secretary, very harsh on

:23:44.:23:47.

migration, she has made harsh speeches but at the same time she

:23:48.:23:52.

presided over huge increases, historically unprecedented increases

:23:53.:23:55.

in migration. Absolutely but she said after the vote, we are going to

:23:56.:24:00.

take back control of immigration, and she has put that central in

:24:01.:24:05.

terms of the way she has negotiated. She has not said a thing. She talks

:24:06.:24:10.

about it a hell of a lot, we are the party people know exactly where we

:24:11.:24:14.

stand on migration, it is still the biggest issue, it hasn't gone away.

:24:15.:24:20.

But we want a point style system like Australia and at the same time

:24:21.:24:24.

we want, as well as an aptitude test, we want an aptitude test to

:24:25.:24:28.

make sure people coming here I accept our values. These are huge

:24:29.:24:33.

issues for people the Tories and Labour don't talk about. Thank you

:24:34.:24:35.

very much indeed for speaking to us. He's played many leads in Hollywood

:24:36.:24:39.

movies over the last 20 years but Hugh Jackman's defining role has

:24:40.:24:42.

been Wolverine part But these mutant outsiders battling

:24:43.:24:44.

to save the Earth were originally conceived as anti-prejudice icons

:24:45.:24:49.

by New York cartoonists Anyway, I'm afraid fans will never

:24:50.:24:51.

see Jackman play Wolverine again. He's bowing out with one

:24:52.:24:55.

last hurrah, a darker, more reflective action film,

:24:56.:24:57.

with a soundtrack to match. I play a mutant, so a kind

:24:58.:25:05.

of enhanced human being. He has a very strong metal all over

:25:06.:25:37.

his bones and claws that come out and he is virtually

:25:38.:25:44.

indestructible. However, in this film we see him

:25:45.:25:46.

in the winter of his life, not only my character

:25:47.:25:49.

but Charles Xavier played by Patrick Stewart, who's also now the most

:25:50.:25:53.

powerful brain suffering dementia. That's what happens to super heroes

:25:54.:25:58.

in the winter of their life, and what happens after the battle, how

:25:59.:26:03.

there's a line in the movie where he referenced shame, there's no

:26:04.:26:06.

living with the killing. This film is set in the future,

:26:07.:26:10.

but the relatively Trump's wall or somebody's wall

:26:11.:26:13.

is running along the Mexican border, and at the end,

:26:14.:26:16.

without giving things away, Canada You escape America into Canada,

:26:17.:26:18.

so what's it saying, do you think, about

:26:19.:26:23.

contemporary America? You know, it's a great question

:26:24.:26:30.

and I want to be really clear. All those things about the wall,

:26:31.:26:33.

they were all written into our script before all this

:26:34.:26:36.

stuff started to happen. I do remember calling James Mangold,

:26:37.:26:38.

and saying, "I think our script may have leaked

:26:39.:26:41.

somewhere, I think someone But it's timely and I'm

:26:42.:26:43.

thrilled that it's timely but, when it began, I'm

:26:44.:26:46.

not sure if you know, was an allegory for the civil rights

:26:47.:26:54.

movement so Patrick Stewart's character, Xavier, was

:26:55.:26:57.

Martin Luther King, and Ian McKellen's character,

:26:58.:26:59.

Magneto, was Malcom X. It was always about tolerance,

:27:00.:27:01.

about discrimination, and it always kind of

:27:02.:27:02.

had something to say. That's what differentiated

:27:03.:27:04.

it in 1963 so we are It says a lot about

:27:05.:27:07.

this character, who wants to shut down,

:27:08.:27:10.

who wants to separate, who finds life and love too painful,

:27:11.:27:12.

too hard, too This movie is very much

:27:13.:27:14.

meditation about... worthwhile loving and embracing or

:27:15.:27:24.

is it just easier to build a wall. And it's also a curiously knowing

:27:25.:27:33.

movie because, as you say, all the stories came

:27:34.:27:35.

out of the comic books, and there's character and the young girl are

:27:36.:27:38.

leafing through a comic book and she You say, "That's not true,

:27:39.:27:43.

that's a comic book." There is you as a comic

:27:44.:27:47.

book character saying, "it can't be true,

:27:48.:27:48.

it's in a comic book". It's a little weird,

:27:49.:27:51.

very deliberate, something James Mangold,

:27:52.:27:54.

the director, came up with and I loved it

:27:55.:27:56.

because what we are talking about He's a warrior, he's gone

:27:57.:27:59.

into battle for us and he's won but He's like probably a lot

:28:00.:28:06.

of returned soldiers whose experience they don't

:28:07.:28:11.

necessarily internally The other sort of superhero movie

:28:12.:28:12.

that was very knowing, in a slightly different way, was

:28:13.:28:22.

Deadpool, which took the mick out of And I just wonder, there's been talk

:28:23.:28:24.

possibly of bringing back Logan one last time with a Deadpool

:28:25.:28:31.

connection as well. Those two characters,

:28:32.:28:34.

Deadpool and Logan, famously intertwined in the comic books -

:28:35.:28:36.

they hate each other, they are archenemies and they are kind

:28:37.:28:39.

of perfect counterparts. I knew two and a half

:28:40.:28:42.

years ago that this was my last one, and I couldn't have

:28:43.:28:48.

made this movie unless Someone else will play Wolverine,

:28:49.:28:51.

but Ryan Reynolds has been camping outside my house

:28:52.:28:55.

and he's there right now! OK, one historic character

:28:56.:29:01.

is Jean Valjean. You came quite close

:29:02.:29:06.

to an Oscar for that and I think the singing was never

:29:07.:29:08.

recorded, it had to be I'm really glad I've

:29:09.:29:34.

done things like hosting the Oscars live, I'm glad I've had

:29:35.:29:43.

opening nights here at That kind of pressure

:29:44.:29:46.

where you have got to All the press is in and

:29:47.:29:49.

the success or failure when you host the Oscars

:29:50.:29:53.

is on how you deliver on that day, not how

:29:54.:29:57.

you will deliver four shows I may never sing that song again -

:29:58.:29:59.

I'd better deliver today. The X-Men movies

:30:00.:30:05.

have made you such a whatever you want, so what do

:30:06.:30:06.

you want to do next? Being involved in stories that

:30:07.:30:13.

I believe in, that I fight for, that I think

:30:14.:30:16.

of something to say, that challenge me as an actor

:30:17.:30:18.

is an addictive feeling. I haven't always felt

:30:19.:30:21.

like this, but right now Thanks very much indeed

:30:22.:30:23.

for talking to us. The central message

:30:24.:30:32.

of Theresa May's brand of Toryism - and in her view, the Tory victory

:30:33.:30:41.

in this week's Copeland by-election - is that it's the Conservatives

:30:42.:30:43.

who best represent the interests But do the figures

:30:44.:30:46.

really bear that out? As Tory MPs brace themselves

:30:47.:30:50.

for new cuts in benefits to the disabled, the party chairman

:30:51.:30:52.

Patrick McLoughlin joins me. Welcome, you are the quintessential

:30:53.:31:05.

working-class Tory. Do you think the Tory party is now the party of the

:31:06.:31:10.

bottom dog and the working class? I think what Theresa May is doing as

:31:11.:31:13.

Prime Minister is trying to say to those parts of the country which

:31:14.:31:18.

feel left behind that we've got to offer opportunities to them and

:31:19.:31:22.

offer opportunities to every section of our society, irrespective of

:31:23.:31:25.

where they come from, if they do the right thing. What was the problem

:31:26.:31:31.

with the phrase "Just about managing?", there is a report in the

:31:32.:31:35.

Sun newspaper that it is banned in government, and you cannot talk

:31:36.:31:42.

about the JAMS any more. I'm not sure I believe everything that you

:31:43.:31:47.

read in newspapers! What? Not in The Sun newspaper? Or in any! When

:31:48.:31:53.

Theresa May entered Downing Street, she does want to... If you are

:31:54.:31:57.

struggling to manage, I'm on your side. If you are in financial

:31:58.:32:01.

problems, I'm on your side, I want to pick that up with you. An

:32:02.:32:06.

interesting report this week from the Resolution Foundation, working

:32:07.:32:10.

on official government figures. This is the forecast income growth during

:32:11.:32:15.

the Parliament. The richest households, the green bed, going up

:32:16.:32:21.

4% in real income growth. The poorest down by 16%. A devastating

:32:22.:32:26.

indictment of a government claiming to be working on behalf of the

:32:27.:32:30.

working people. One of the things we are doing, in April, the base rate

:32:31.:32:34.

of tax, people earning less than ?11,000, they will not pay any

:32:35.:32:39.

income tax at all. These are big issues... They are factored in at

:32:40.:32:44.

the moment but lest well on this at the moment, are you embarrassed by

:32:45.:32:47.

the graft? C if it comes into progression. -- lets see if it comes

:32:48.:32:59.

into fruition. Those people getting below wages, we will reduce the tax

:33:00.:33:04.

they pay. By and large, in the bottom quartile on that graph in

:33:05.:33:08.

terms of income, you face a tough few years in this government? And

:33:09.:33:12.

that is why we must ensure what we are doing as far as giving people

:33:13.:33:15.

apprenticeships and helping people who are not working at the moment,

:33:16.:33:20.

into work, we have record employment rates, and they will help people

:33:21.:33:24.

across the board. Judge us on our record, not on what an organisation

:33:25.:33:31.

says might happen in three years' time... Albeit based on official

:33:32.:33:34.

figures? Because things will change. Let's look at things that you could

:33:35.:33:39.

do. ?3 billion, thereabouts, was taken out of universal credit by

:33:40.:33:42.

George Osborne which has a serious effect. I'm quitting the Resolution

:33:43.:33:48.

Foundation again, but using government figures, a working couple

:33:49.:33:52.

with two children, earning the living wage, will be ?1700 per year

:33:53.:33:58.

worse off by 2020? We must reduce the deficit and still had a big

:33:59.:34:02.

deficit in the country. Why on the backs of those people? We must look

:34:03.:34:06.

at the whole area and reward those who work. That is what we are doing,

:34:07.:34:11.

raising the threshold that you start paying income tax at, and look at

:34:12.:34:15.

other measures. They are the things that will be looked at in the round

:34:16.:34:19.

by the Chancellor, coming up to the budget in ten days. Can you look at

:34:20.:34:23.

universal credit cuts again? The truth is, we are spending a lot of

:34:24.:34:27.

money on benefits overall, and we need to balance the books and get

:34:28.:34:32.

the deficit down. Iain Duncan Smith, no hand wringing lefty, I think you

:34:33.:34:35.

would agree, sat in the chair when he resigned from the government, and

:34:36.:34:41.

said it is not fair. Given the extra income for those at the top of the

:34:42.:34:45.

heap, universal credit is not fair and must change. Can you look at it

:34:46.:34:50.

again? He actually agreed to that when he was the Work and Pensions

:34:51.:34:53.

Secretary, he did not object to changes being made then. I think

:34:54.:34:57.

Theresa May and the Chancellor, and Damian Green, they will want to look

:34:58.:35:01.

at all of these issues in the round. You think it will be looked at

:35:02.:35:06.

again? We always keep all policies under review. This is the front page

:35:07.:35:11.

of the Financial Times from Saturday, may faces disability

:35:12.:35:15.

benefits battle. This is in all of their papers -- Theresa May. Massive

:35:16.:35:20.

cuts to the welfare budgets, these are people having a tough time

:35:21.:35:23.

already and you will take money that they thought they would get? As a

:35:24.:35:28.

country we spend over ?50 billion per year supporting people who've

:35:29.:35:31.

got disabilities in this country. I think overall we give a very

:35:32.:35:36.

generous scheme, and there are changes which come about as a result

:35:37.:35:41.

of tribunal 's and we must look at how it addresses the whole effect.

:35:42.:35:45.

As far as supporting disabled people? Overall I think we should be

:35:46.:35:50.

very proud in this country. We are taking ?3.7 billion away from them.

:35:51.:35:55.

The disability rights UK, the lobbying body on this, they say new

:35:56.:35:59.

regulations will hit disabled people and those with serious conditions

:36:00.:36:02.

very hard. The department itself admits that these will include, for

:36:03.:36:08.

double, those with learning disabilities, die abilities,

:36:09.:36:10.

epilepsy, anxiety and dementia, those with dementia will lose money

:36:11.:36:19.

under the government -- diabetes. We will listen to what people are

:36:20.:36:22.

saying and look at proposals which come forward. But we need to

:36:23.:36:27.

produce... Over ?60 billion are being spent every year as a country

:36:28.:36:34.

and we need to balance the budget and reduce the deficit. Let me turn

:36:35.:36:38.

to another issue. I do not know if you heard Gina Miller talking in the

:36:39.:36:43.

paper review about the moment in the House of Lords and Lord Heseltine,

:36:44.:36:47.

there's a push there to get written into legislation a much tougher

:36:48.:36:50.

agreement for a further vote towards the end of the negotiation process

:36:51.:36:55.

for Brexit. If that happens and the government loses in the House of

:36:56.:36:59.

Lords, what will you do? We need to see how the bill evolves when it is

:37:00.:37:04.

out the House of Lords. But it got one of the biggest majority a bill

:37:05.:37:09.

has got on its third reading in the House of Commons and it has gone to

:37:10.:37:12.

the House of Lords. The Prime Minister said that there would be a

:37:13.:37:16.

vote when negotiations are concluded and the Prime Minister will not

:37:17.:37:19.

conclude negotiations if she thinks she has a bad deal. Is it worth

:37:20.:37:25.

having a fight about this? Well, I'm not sure we will see whether we will

:37:26.:37:29.

have a fight or not... So you might allow the amended bill to stand? The

:37:30.:37:33.

bill should go through as it comes from the elected House of Commons. I

:37:34.:37:40.

found it interesting that Gina Miller was going on about

:37:41.:37:43.

sovereignty, the House of Commons over woman you passed a bill based

:37:44.:37:46.

on the referendum that said we should pull out of the EU --

:37:47.:37:52.

overwhelmingly passed a bill. We cannot start second guessing the

:37:53.:37:58.

referendum. A lot of MPs and ordinary voters think if the

:37:59.:38:01.

situation changes, there are changes to the economy, if we do not get the

:38:02.:38:06.

deal that many people want to go through, in those circumstances

:38:07.:38:08.

there should be some sort of exit route and slipway off the motorway?

:38:09.:38:13.

The Prime Minister will not come back through the House of Commons

:38:14.:38:20.

with a deal that she cannot recommend. So, that's what we've got

:38:21.:38:24.

to do. Give the Prime Minister as much Flex ability in negotiations

:38:25.:38:29.

over these next two years, not giving her a backstop into other

:38:30.:38:32.

issues. We've talked about the by-elections during the programme.

:38:33.:38:36.

One thing people thought, whether they were just about managing or

:38:37.:38:40.

not, that the government was on their side about immigration and

:38:41.:38:44.

control of it. Then they heard David Davis in a stone yet this week,

:38:45.:38:48.

saying it would be years and years before we could persuade the British

:38:49.:38:51.

people to do some jobs in agriculture -- in

:38:52.:38:57.

Estonia. And not to expected downturn in immigration for some

:38:58.:39:04.

years to come. Many people would be disturbed by that? We have figures

:39:05.:39:07.

in the last week about a reduction as far as net immigration to a

:39:08.:39:12.

country as far as previous figures were concerned. So, I think we need

:39:13.:39:16.

to see how it is done and not take one small part of an completely out

:39:17.:39:21.

of context. David is very committed to the Prime Minister's agenda which

:39:22.:39:26.

is ensuring that we get control over our own borders, one of the biggest

:39:27.:39:27.

issues in the referendum. Is it the case that you are looking

:39:28.:39:36.

at a complex system of visas for migrants to stop people from taking

:39:37.:39:40.

benefits? We are looking at a lot of things, which are being discussed,

:39:41.:39:46.

when we can make announcements about what we will do, we will tell you

:39:47.:39:51.

and the House of Commons too. After Copeland, how big are your ambitions

:39:52.:39:54.

for taking on the Labour Party in the north and the Midlands? Copeland

:39:55.:40:00.

was a fantastic result, both for the Prime Minister and Trudy Harrison, a

:40:01.:40:04.

local candidate who brought a great deal of local expertise to the

:40:05.:40:13.

campaign. I think it shows that all seats are ones that we will look at

:40:14.:40:16.

and challenge hard in the general election. You would not expect me,

:40:17.:40:22.

as the Conservative Party chairman, to say that. There is no numerical

:40:23.:40:26.

target. We will target right across the board. The simple fact is, at

:40:27.:40:31.

the moment, boundaries are being redrawn and the size of the House of

:40:32.:40:35.

Commons is to be reduced. We are not sure where the boundaries will be. A

:40:36.:40:39.

lot of talk about Donald Trump's visit, will he be an appropriate

:40:40.:40:43.

guest at the Conservative Party conference this year? I don't know,

:40:44.:40:49.

arrangements for the dates have not yet been finalised! But he is

:40:50.:40:53.

certainly getting the media talking quite a lot about him! Patrick

:40:54.:40:56.

McLoughlin, thank you for talking to us.

:40:57.:40:58.

Now, coming up later, Andrew Neil will be talking

:40:59.:41:00.

about those by-elections and more with Scottish Labour

:41:01.:41:02.

leader Kezia Dugdale, and he'll be asking where next

:41:03.:41:04.

for Ukip, with the MEP Patrick O'Flynn.

:41:05.:41:06.

That's the Sunday Politics at 11 here on BBC One.

:41:07.:41:12.

Now, Jeremy Corbyn was asked on Friday if he'd

:41:13.:41:14.

considered that he might be the source of Labour's problems.

:41:15.:41:17.

So, why did Labour suffer its worst by-election defeat for 50 years?

:41:18.:41:21.

The shadow Attorney General Baroness Chakrabarti is with me.

:41:22.:41:26.

Welcome, Shami Chakrabarti. We could have a very boring interview, where

:41:27.:41:32.

I say it is all Jeremy Corbyn's fault and he has to go. And you say,

:41:33.:41:37.

no. So we won't do that! And everybody wanders off and has a cup

:41:38.:41:40.

of coffee! Let's be serious about it. How Depay hole do you think you

:41:41.:41:46.

are in when you look at the Copeland result? I was there last weekend,

:41:47.:41:51.

knocking on doors. I felt that Copeland is probably one of those

:41:52.:41:55.

constituencies that was neglected by my own party over some years. It is

:41:56.:42:00.

remote from London, it has changed its shape. Over many years. There is

:42:01.:42:06.

the nuclear in, people have done very well from it. And, the people

:42:07.:42:12.

left behind. -- there are people left behind. You cannot way people's

:42:13.:42:18.

votes, you have to cherish them. We lost by 2000, but I believe that

:42:19.:42:23.

when people see what Theresa May's hard Brexit looks like and when

:42:24.:42:28.

people see an alternative vision coming from the more united Labour

:42:29.:42:34.

Party, as I believe that we could key, they would change their minds.

:42:35.:42:38.

Jeremy Corbyn basically said it was against the establishment, it

:42:39.:42:41.

doesn't really make sense... It does, in Copeland. But if those

:42:42.:42:46.

turning against the establishment, why would they vote for Theresa May

:42:47.:42:52.

and the Conservative Party? In Copeland, Labour looks like the

:42:53.:42:54.

establishment for a long time because they were represented by

:42:55.:43:00.

Labour for a long time. There are peculiarities about that seat, like

:43:01.:43:06.

our position on the nuclear industry, but I don't want to make

:43:07.:43:10.

it specifically about Copeland. We have work to do and suffered from

:43:11.:43:15.

disunity, two elections in the space of a year. We suffered from the fact

:43:16.:43:20.

that our supporters were divided, like the country, over Brexit. It

:43:21.:43:24.

has been a big issue for some time but now, I think once Article 50 is

:43:25.:43:29.

triggered, as it will be, we have an opportunity to unite about things

:43:30.:43:33.

that really matter to the lives of people. Like schools, hospitals,

:43:34.:43:37.

jobs and benefits. Like terrible cuts in the disability benefits.

:43:38.:43:41.

Something strange is happening here. On the NHS and is ability benefits,

:43:42.:43:46.

you have messages where really people care about this but when

:43:47.:43:52.

Labour talks about it, it does not cut through. Something is going

:43:53.:43:55.

wrong between the Labour Party and the country. On cutting through, we

:43:56.:44:00.

have suffered, as I say, from disunity. If we are always talking

:44:01.:44:04.

about the leadership and fighting over it, it will not cut through.

:44:05.:44:08.

Sometimes we have not had the most fair or balanced treatment in the

:44:09.:44:11.

media, including the broadcast media. As you know, the left has

:44:12.:44:16.

always said it is the media... I'm not blaming the media but the

:44:17.:44:20.

disunity has been the focus was even on your programme last week, a few

:44:21.:44:25.

days before a by-election in two Brexit seats, there was not a single

:44:26.:44:30.

person on the programme speaking for the leadership. There was well

:44:31.:44:35.

represented Labour MP in the paper review... And you have Lord

:44:36.:44:40.

Mandelson... You are allowed whoever it you like, but if I may say so, it

:44:41.:44:45.

was not the fairest balance a few days before a by-election into

:44:46.:44:46.

Labour Brexit seats. Except law. days before a by-election into

:44:47.:44:52.

Labour Brexit seats. Except Lord Mandelson and Tony Blair, and that

:44:53.:44:57.

regime, they won majorities time and again. It is not about the terrible

:44:58.:45:01.

regime but about the fact that representatives cannot way people's

:45:02.:45:07.

votes any more. My experience, from talking to people in Copeland, they

:45:08.:45:10.

felt they were neglected for too long. Taken for granted by the

:45:11.:45:16.

Labour Party? For too long. That will not happen. Jack Remy is right,

:45:17.:45:20.

when part of what worked for Labour in Stoke was listening to people and

:45:21.:45:24.

listening to their concerns, not about Jeremy Corbyn but about the

:45:25.:45:26.

fact that instead, people want social housing and, in Copeland,

:45:27.:45:31.

people do not have adequate roads and now the hospital is under

:45:32.:45:32.

threat. Let me read you Dave Prentice, an

:45:33.:45:42.

apartment figure in the Labour movement who said, Stoke should

:45:43.:45:50.

never have been in doubt. Party has inflicted seven years of painful

:45:51.:45:54.

spending cuts on our country and is disaster in the NHS. Last year I

:45:55.:46:01.

said Labour have never been further from government, five months on the

:46:02.:46:05.

party has not moved an inch closer to Downing Street. Copeland is

:46:06.:46:09.

indicative of a party sliding towards irrelevance, and that is on

:46:10.:46:13.

your watch and Jeremy Corbyn's watch. What I would say to Dave

:46:14.:46:17.

Prentice and some of these other great men of the left is it is time

:46:18.:46:22.

to unite. Because constant attacks on the leadership, constant

:46:23.:46:25.

leadership elections, constant divisions don't attack the issues

:46:26.:46:34.

that would allowus to present an alternative vision. He was

:46:35.:46:40.

describing what's happening, he was describing reality. Some people say

:46:41.:46:43.

you are all frankly distanced from reality, hiding from what is really

:46:44.:46:48.

going on. I don't accept that. I have just talked to you for some

:46:49.:46:53.

minutes about what I think is happening in Copeland. People are

:46:54.:46:58.

feeling neglected and left behind by their representatives, including

:46:59.:47:00.

Labour representatives, for too long. Whether it is Jack Dromey or

:47:01.:47:08.

Jeremy Corbyn, the party is in listening mode but it won't be able

:47:09.:47:10.

to put that into practice unless it unites. We have seen a whole series

:47:11.:47:16.

of excuses about Copeland. It is not an excuse. You yourself said I think

:47:17.:47:23.

we have suffered from storm Doris because Labour voters don't have as

:47:24.:47:31.

many cars and cannot vote. We have had by-election is the many years

:47:32.:47:34.

and somehow members have come out and managed to win for many years.

:47:35.:47:41.

There was a lower turnout in Copeland, and having been there

:47:42.:47:46.

recently I know it is a very rural constituency, public transport isn't

:47:47.:47:49.

great but that's one factor, and of course its not the entire

:47:50.:47:54.

explanation. Let's look at Stoke where you defeated Ukip, however one

:47:55.:47:59.

of the key claims of the Jeremy Corbyn movement has been... It is

:48:00.:48:04.

not a movement. Pro-Corbyn people, as it were. That wing of the party,

:48:05.:48:10.

by growing the party membership so hugely you put Labour into a

:48:11.:48:17.

position where you are one of the biggest parties in Europe but you

:48:18.:48:20.

don't be able to translate that into getting more voters out. The big

:48:21.:48:26.

membership but fewer voters. What I would say about activating the

:48:27.:48:29.

membership is that in Stoke hundreds of members from around the country

:48:30.:48:33.

went to Stoke and I'm sure that was of help to the team there in getting

:48:34.:48:38.

the vote out. Copeland a bit more remote, we had fewer people on the

:48:39.:48:42.

ground but I do still think that having a mass membership can be

:48:43.:48:47.

translated. Even if people recruit or persuade colleagues and family

:48:48.:48:56.

members, that is part of... Stoke, more nonvoters than any constituency

:48:57.:49:00.

in the general election just passed, again the number of people voting

:49:01.:49:04.

Labour went down. That big part of the ship did not translate into

:49:05.:49:07.

getting nonparty members into the ballot box. I think you are right

:49:08.:49:13.

and the reasons partly we suffer from disunity, we suffered from

:49:14.:49:18.

being split over Brexit. Our supporters and constituencies, like

:49:19.:49:22.

the country, they are split but now we move beyond that divisive issue

:49:23.:49:26.

the questions for this country are about what kind of place it will be.

:49:27.:49:33.

It was going to be a place where dementia don't get the benefits the

:49:34.:49:37.

tribunal say they can get because the Labour Party are party for the

:49:38.:49:42.

super rich and not the working people? When it comes to explaining

:49:43.:49:45.

what happened on looking forward, Tom Watson said the whole leadership

:49:46.:49:50.

has to take a long, hard look in the mirror. If it is not Jeremy Corbyn

:49:51.:49:55.

and Shami Chakrabarti and whoever to blame, then it must be the policies.

:49:56.:50:00.

So where do you see the Labour Party changing its policy positions to

:50:01.:50:04.

show it is listening to people? I think it is not just about policy,

:50:05.:50:08.

sometimes it's about communication and sometimes it's about getting the

:50:09.:50:13.

space and making the space to be heard. We have got some wonderful

:50:14.:50:17.

Shadow Cabinet colleagues who I rarely see get the airtime they

:50:18.:50:23.

deserve. Abby Abrahams, a wonderful Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary,

:50:24.:50:27.

Rebecca Long Bailey on business, a lot of the women actually because

:50:28.:50:30.

it's a very female Shadow Cabinet and it would be nice to have those

:50:31.:50:35.

voices heard on your programme. We have them on from time to time, we

:50:36.:50:39.

have everyone on from time to time. No doubt more in the future. One of

:50:40.:50:45.

the other things is the suggestion the Labour Party in London, the

:50:46.:50:50.

Metropolitan elite are out of touch on kind of cultural and security

:50:51.:50:54.

issues from Labour voters. You saw the story in the mail on Sunday

:50:55.:51:00.

today about mobile phones. Did you say that? Know, and even the Mail on

:51:01.:51:05.

Sunday in that peace talks about alleged alleged alleged, which is

:51:06.:51:10.

not something you did in your crunchy hard facts paper review so

:51:11.:51:16.

that is an apocryphal story. Mobile phones are not just a problem in

:51:17.:51:20.

prison, they are clearly a problem in militias hands in the Palace of

:51:21.:51:25.

Westminster as well. And you never wanted mobile phones to stay in the

:51:26.:51:30.

hands of... The other thing you have been attacked for in the press

:51:31.:51:34.

recently is being jubilant and enthusiastic when Mr Fidler was

:51:35.:51:38.

released from Guantanamo Bay, he then went on and changed his name

:51:39.:51:44.

and blew himself up we are told working for Isis in Syria. How did

:51:45.:51:50.

you feel about that? I campaigned for the closure of Guantanamo and

:51:51.:51:53.

short of that I campaigned for Britons to be returned from

:51:54.:51:58.

Guantanamo and I did that alongside for example the Mail on Sunday. That

:51:59.:52:02.

was my position and remains my position. That's nothing about being

:52:03.:52:07.

jubilant about individuals. One of the things about internment as a

:52:08.:52:10.

policy is you have no idea whether individuals concerned are guilty or

:52:11.:52:16.

innocent and my belief remains that interning people without trial and

:52:17.:52:20.

torturing them is a recruiting Sergeant for terrorism. Even though

:52:21.:52:27.

in this case someone who was clearly dangerous was left out? If you are

:52:28.:52:31.

not dangerous before you get interned and mistreated, you are

:52:32.:52:35.

more likely to be dangerous afterwards. It was a bad policy in

:52:36.:52:38.

Northern Ireland and remains a really bad policy in Guantanamo Bay.

:52:39.:52:43.

Final question on the by-election results. I've talked to a lot of

:52:44.:52:48.

people inside the Labour Party across the party and there's a lot

:52:49.:52:52.

of real anxiety and fear about where the Labour Party is going, and they

:52:53.:52:57.

say again and again, and the leadership is in denial. I have

:52:58.:53:03.

tried to speak about the real issue is going back a long time, I don't

:53:04.:53:07.

consider myself to be in denial, but I think some of the people you are

:53:08.:53:12.

talking to need to take their share of the collective responsibility as

:53:13.:53:16.

well. If we unite and concentrate on going forward, on what we should be,

:53:17.:53:20.

which is about part of it goes back to its roots, a party of equality,

:53:21.:53:26.

for the NHS, schools and hospitals and disability benefits for ordinary

:53:27.:53:33.

people, we will do very much better. Just in case Rebecca Long Bailey is

:53:34.:53:35.

watching this programme, she has been invited on the programme and so

:53:36.:53:39.

far has been unable to come. I will pass that on. Thank you, we are

:53:40.:53:45.

almost out of time today. But before we leave you I'm

:53:46.:53:48.

delighted to say we've got a true Ever since the early 80s,

:53:49.:53:51.

Marc Almond has provided a unique soundtrack to surviving a crazy

:53:52.:53:55.

world of love and heartache. Solo and with Soft Cell he's had

:53:56.:53:58.

countless hits such as these... # Sometimes I feel I've got to

:53:59.:54:10.

# Runaway, I've got to # Getaway from the pain you drive

:54:11.:54:14.

into the heart of me. # Say hello, say goodbye #

:54:15.:54:24.

# Something's gotten hold of my heart

:54:25.:54:26.

# Something's gotten into my life and my senses apart

:54:27.:54:37.

Soft Cells' greatest hits will be released next month.

:54:38.:54:39.

Before he heads off on a national tour, the man himself

:54:40.:54:42.

It's great to see you. You had a nasty head injury, you came off the

:54:43.:54:53.

back of a motorbike, are you all right? I'm fine, it was about 15

:54:54.:54:57.

years ago and it seems like all that time has gone since then, which is

:54:58.:55:06.

why I do good work for Headway. So do I. You will be singing one of

:55:07.:55:13.

your great songs, one that you wrote yourself, a kind of old-fashioned

:55:14.:55:23.

ballad. I think it is probably Soft Cell's first real song. When I had

:55:24.:55:28.

in mind, I wrote the lyrics about kind of a politician's illicit

:55:29.:55:32.

affair with shall we say an exotic dancer and how he treats her very

:55:33.:55:41.

badly. Sounds like Appletree Yard! Set in Soho, the pink flamingo. We

:55:42.:55:49.

are looking forward to it very much. Hits And Pieces out on the 15th of

:55:50.:55:53.

March. from Nicky Campbell about what's

:55:54.:56:01.

coming up after this programme. At ten o'clock we will be talking

:56:02.:56:14.

about Islam, do we represent it, reincarnation, and marriage. See you

:56:15.:56:15.

at ten on BBC One. Thanks Nicky, now as promised

:56:16.:56:18.

here to sing us out is Marc Almond with the classic Say Hello,

:56:19.:56:21.

Wave Goodbye. # Crying in the rain

:56:22.:56:25.

of the Pink Flamingo # It was a kind

:56:26.:56:32.

of so-so love and # I'm gonna make sure

:56:33.:56:37.

it never happens again # You and I, it had to be

:56:38.:56:41.

the standing joke of the year # You were a sleep around,

:56:42.:56:53.

a lost-and-found, and not for me # I fear I tried to make it work,

:56:54.:56:57.

you in a cocktail skirt, # I don't belong to you,

:56:58.:57:08.

you see # Take a look at my

:57:09.:57:19.

face for the last time # I never knew you, you never

:57:20.:57:26.

knew me # I can see the make-up sliding

:57:27.:57:30.

down # Hey little girl,

:57:31.:57:58.

you will always make-up, # Well, I'll find someone that's not

:57:59.:58:00.

going cheap in the sales # A nice little housewife,

:58:01.:58:11.

who'll give me a steady life # I don't belong to you,

:58:12.:58:15.

you see # Take a look at my

:58:16.:58:30.

face for the last time # I never knew you, you never

:58:31.:58:39.

knew me

:58:40.:58:43.

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