23/07/2017 The Andrew Marr Show

It's nearly the end of July, Parliament is gone,

another political season is now officially over.

This time two years ago, David Cameron was triumphantly

installed in Number Ten, Jeremy Corbyn was a 200-1 shot

for the Labour leadership and we were apparently secure

This time a year ago, Cameron was out, and the then hugely

popular Theresa May was Prime Minister.

She promised there'd be no early election.

What will the world be looking like by July 2018?

Answers on a holiday postcard, please.

Well, I'm joined this morning by the man who's smashed

all the predictions and torn up the political rule book, but do

we know what Jeremy Corbyn really thinks on Europe and capitalism?

And as the Brexit talks hot up, Liam Fox, the International Trade

Secretary, is in the US, talking about free trade.

Looking ahead, we're just days away from the World Athletics

I'm joined by one of the most powerful men in world sport to talk

about that and the fight against doping in athletics.

And the Hollywood star Ethan Hawke on why his often-downbeat new movie

is really all about happiness and the joy of art.

Plus, music from Broadway's finest, Audra McDonald, channelling

the spirit of the late, great Billie Holliday.

# All you'll say when you have kissed him is "ooh, ooh"

And reviewing the newspapers and more, I'm joined

by the former Labour MP and chair of Vote Leave Gisela Stuart,

the Spectator's Toby Young and Nigel Farage's favourite

Princes William and Harry have given a candid insight

into their relationship with their mother, Princess Diana,

and have revealed that they last spoke to her in a brief phone call

Speaking in a documentary to mark the 20th anniversary of her death,

the princes said they regret the rushed nature of that

conversation, but fondly recall their mother's loving nature

One of her mottos to me was, "You can be as naughty as you want,

She was one of the naughtiest parents.

She would come and watch us play football and smuggle

Literally, walking back from a football match and having

Some of the BBC's most high-profile female presenters have written

to the corporation's Director General, Tony Hall, calling

BBC Sport's Claire Balding, the Today programme's Mishal Hussain

and Jane Garvey from Woman's Hour are among the 42 signatories.

The letter in the Sunday Times urges Lord Hall to "act now" to close

the gender pay gap in all areas of the BBC.

The Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, has described the abuse

towards staff at Great Ormond Street Hospital,

where the terminally ill baby Charlie Gard is being treated,

The hospital says its doctors and nurses have faced a "tide

Charlie's family is fighting a legal battle for the right

to take him to America for experimental treatment.

His parents say they don't condone the threats on hospital staff,

Democrats have criticised President Trump for saying he has

the complete power to issue pardons, as an investigation continues

into alleged Russian meddling in last year's US elections.

It's thought he could use the presidential pardon for family

Presidents can pardon people before they're found guilty

The next news on BBC One is at one o'clock.

A busy morning and the papers are absolutely full of that William and

Harry interview that we heard about on the news, the red tops in

particular. There is the Mail on Sunday... The Sunday Mirror... The

same photograph in the Sunday Express. The Sunday Times has the

same story. They have their own story, Tories broke the right to

choose your own sex. But also the other really big story of the day,

there is the Sunday Telegraph splash, revolt of the BBC women,

that is the BBC and pay and you bet we will be talking about that. And

an the Observer... They are talking about David Davis being the

favourite to succeed Theresa May, perhaps in the autumn. And they have

a story about Jeremy Corbyn's secret backer, when he was allegedly going

to be deselected by his constituency party, one Tony Blair stepped in to

save him so we will discuss that. Let's start with the BBC pay story.

When I see all the photographs and read the list of names on this open

letter, I think virtually every important female TV star in the BBC

is in that. It is an absolute complete list it up yes, and they

have all the photographs on page two of the Sunday Telegraph and we also

see evidence that the story is beginning to metastasise so there is

a story about the NHS coming under pressure to reduce the gender pay

gap. And we will soon see it in other publicly funded institution

that they won't just be the gender pay gap but the pay gap between

white men and black, Asian and minority ethnic men and then class

and so forth. I'm slightly concerned that this is going to result in a

clamour for more pay from all kinds of other groups. The solution to

this probably isn't to pay anyone who isn't a white, heterosexual,

middle-class male more. The solution, I'm afraid, is to pay

white, heterosexual, middle-class males less. And you say that as one

of us. Treachery! Diesel, isn't the real issue, I'm thinking of TV, that

people like me, we get paid more because we have experience, red bit

grilled around the edges, but if I had been born Audrey Maher, rather

than Andrew Marr, I would have been out ten years ago. There was a real

lack of older women on the screen anyway. But that we can start to

address. It is not just the top pay, it is the further down you go. You

always will find that women are paid just a little bit less and we've got

to start addressing this and as Toby says, there are these extraordinary

differentials and the fact that this is now coming will enable the next

generation to say, we are no longer putting with this. Anna, I imagine

there will not be a newsroom or an office in the country tomorrow

morning where this is not being talked about and people are saying,

what about here? How much I pick compared to that guy? I used to work

in TV as a female presenter and reporter so I'll absolutely aware of

this. I think things have got worse and I just wonder whether one of the

reasons... I used to be the mother of the chapel, NUJ... FOC? Father of

the Chapel but I was a woman. I kept a very BDI on all the pay levels and

how people were often being mistreated and I just wonder whether

or not, dare I say it, the de-unionisation of many places of

work... I don't have a problem with trade unions as long as they are

democratic and responsible and they played an important point in making

sure there was fairness, whatever your sex, colour, sexual

orientation, whatever. Into that gap which is to be the unions

negotiating you got agents and you've got secrecy and that's where

the problem starts. That's why I think this is so important a is now

come about that is much more open and you have an awareness of what is

going on. The other thing is that to be fair, the women also they know

they are well-paid. They talk about the unfairness in the rest of the

BBC with people not so well-paid. We've got to keep an eye on the

regions as well because there will be regional presenters who will not

be paid the same as the man sitting next order them. I just the gas of

this kind of thing happens and everyone's pay is out there, what

you normally expect is that everyone turns on everybody else and mass of

bickering starts. These women have stuck together and that is very

impressive and that is why they are holding such a blunder the head of

the BBC this morning. One argument to justify the discrepancy is that

the men are more likely to be poached by ITV than the woman. Is

that true in your experience? Yes. I can think of one example of a very

well-regarded female presenter in the BBC, who went to ITV and is now

paid much more there so it goes both ways. Let me turn to the other big

story of the day, which is this William and Harry interview. I don't

really go for these things but it is very moving. It is and if you think

about it, these were two teenagers or all most teenagers in the case of

Harry, when they lost their mother, which for any child is hugely

traumatic, obviously, but things were made even worse for them. Their

parents were separated, which adds to it all, and the fact that whilst

they were trying to grieve, in many ways it was under a public spotlight

and, of course, with papers constantly speculating, showing

scenes of where their mother had died and I think what's refreshing,

if that is the right word to use, but I think it is, is to find two

people who are actually talking about the issue of grief in a very

human way, which says a lot about the modern Royal family, for which

we are very grateful, compared to, frankly, when Diana went into it at

the age of 19, far too young, and a very frail and fragile character in

her own right to talk Maintaining our themes of BBC programmes and

powerful women, Gisela Stuart, I want to go to the front page of the

Observer. Hilary Armstrong, former Chief Whip, has given an interesting

interview to the BBC's Westminster hour. Yes, it reveals that Jeremy

Corbyn's back when the chips were down was Tony Blair. Jeremy Corbyn

was under threat of being deselected by his own constituency and it was

Tony Blair who said, we are not doing this. Tony Blair stepped in to

rescue Corbyn from being removed as an MP when some of his Islington

North constituents wanted to deselect him. The success of New

Labour was that it realised in order to form a government, you need to be

bringing people in and if there was one thing which you could accuse

Tony Blair, he always spent more time on the people who disagreed

with him than people who supported him and I think that is the way

forward. The Whips' office needs to be all embracing, and... Unlike the

hard left of the Labour Party. I think there is a lesson here for the

Conservative party and particularly the Conservative covenant. The

reason Armstrong has revealed this is because she is worried about

deselection and she wants to discourage Jeremy Corbyn from

allowing it to happen. The argument is, hang on if you possibly can

because in due course a civil War will erupt. Gender reassignment. He

said firmly. Was that an order? The answer is no. Tories promote right

to choose your own sex. A very important story. Adults will be able

to change their gender legally without a doctor's diagnosis and

government plans will transform British society. Sunday Times story.

The important thing of the consultation process which they have

announced in the autumn is, I think they have to think through the

consequences of this, whether it is a different retirement age, because

at the moment, whilst we have the possibility of gender reassignment,

if you were born a man and... That is interesting. Of I decided I was

going to declare as other woman I could retire earlier. I would make

you the highest-paid female BBC employee! Nobody is going to do that

to get a better pension. At the moment it is about how men might be

doing things which currently only women can do. Are they going to

gender reassigned in order to go into changing rooms, which is

nonsense because the key thing is, this is an issue which I think is an

important human rights issue. We need to get it out of

medicalisation, where it is seen as, there is a problem with you. If

Justine Greening can continue what the Labour government started... It

was Labour who really were the trailblazers. The Education

Secretary happens to be gay, the schools minister happens to be gay

and that is the right attitude. Nobody... What a remarkable change

in such a short time. When I came into Parliament 20 years ago, there

was this assumption that nobody on the Tory benches... Let's go to

another very powerful woman, extraordinarily vivid piece by Ruth

Davidson, the Scottish Tory leader, in this new website, Tim

Montgomery's Unheard. A great piece by Ruth Davidson, who was a

remarkable woman and I hope very much want date will be a remarkable

Tory leader, but she talks about capitalism, about why as a system

that is the right thing to do, how it enriches everybody and delivers

on social justice, as well as Conservatives. She's talking about

taking the fight to the Labour Party. She says, how can you sell

capitalism to somebody in a pit village with no pit or a steel town

with no steel mill or a factory town with their factories? We have

stopped making the argument and stopped telling people what

conservatism is all about and we've allowed the Labour Party, the hard

left in particular, to take the agenda that they have a monopoly on

caring about people. I don't want poverty. That's one of the reasons I

came into politics, for the abolition of poverty. What

distinguishes us, largely, is how we achieve it. She makes the case for

capitalism as being the deliverer of social justice. This is being ramped

up by some people as Ruth Davidson's leadership bid but this seems to me

to be total before because she is inside the Scottish party, not the

Westminster Parliament, and has no intention of moving. She says, I

want to be Scotland's first Minister. She is the kind of person

you would like to be standing behind us leader one-day? One day,

undoubtedly. She is an outstanding woman.

It's exactly the kind of conversation that needs to be taking

place in the Conservative Party, they need to defend capitalism and

socialism but also acknowledge there are some problems of capitalism that

need addressing. You have another Labour story, to be? Yes, in the

mail on Sunday there is a story about how Justine Greening has

written a letter to Angela Rayner demanding an apology for Labour's

misleading of students during the election campaign by strongly

implying they would do something to deal with student debt. Not just

stop people from having to pay but also deal with the debt run up, over

?100 billion we are talking about. Justine Greening is rightly asking

Labour to apologise for misleading people on this issue. I have to make

promises on this show who can talk about what, and I have promised

geese she can talk about pop-up parliaments! -- Gisela. The easiest

thing is for Parliament to refurbish as quickly as possible, and here is,

I think, this amazing suggestion. Could this be the temporary home for

the Commons, Horse Guards Parade... It's an idea, Norman Foster behind

it and I think we should cherish modern architecture and give it a

chance. We are almost running out of time, I also want to talk about

Brexit. I had assumed, Anna, that people like you were pretty much

stuff in this Parliament, there weren't enough of you to make a

difference, but because of the five-year Parliament act you can

carry on voting as you wish without too much fear of a sudden general

election, is that right? I think it is. Everything has changed after the

general election. Theresa May went to the country to increase her

majority and I think it was so that she could put into place a form of

Brexit which the British people have actually rejected. Now we are

leaving the European Union, nothing has changed on that, but the terms

and the deal we get, the rhetorical use and that end deal has completely

changed and she has to build a consensus. What happened is that the

hardline Brexiteers I think have realised their game is up, thank

goodness for that. But now we understand that all members of the

Cabinet and accept there will be a transitional period. We will then

get a proper deal with the EU and then we go into that. Liam Fox says

he thinks it shouldn't last, that transition period, longer than now

and the next general election. What do you think about that? Should take

as long as it takes for British business to get what they want. It

is an interesting argument but we are about out of time I'm afraid. We

will be talking about this for months and months ahead but thank

you very much indeed. To widespread national relief,

the Prime Minister isn't going walking in Wales

to take more decisions. She's off to the Alps instead,

perhaps missing this delightful, delicious and reviving rain we've

been enjoying this week. Yes it will continue, in fact today

is looking similar to yesterday, disappointing in places with

prolonged rain, but there was some sunshine. Today there will be more

sunshine but also showers and longer spells of rain that may turn out to

be heavy too. The low pressure will slowly move eastwards into the near

continent but it brings another showery day, rain to eastern

Scotland and central southern parts of Scotland into northern England as

we head into the afternoon. Further south a rash of showers which could

merge together, some could be heavy with Thunder mixed in too. But there

will be brightness in between and in Northern Ireland it will be quite

warm, but cool way of the showers. As we had through the course of

Monday, it looks like it will continue to be cloudy across

central, southern and eastern parts, the chilly northern wind down the

eastern coast, but further north and west high pressure building in here,

so quite warm. Giusto looks prior and dry to pretty much across the

board apart from the odd shower, and then into Wednesday the next weather

system moves in to bring the spell of what weather to the UK. -- wet

weather. My next guest was a

genuine sporting hero. of the most successful runners

we've ever had. He then went into politics,

and then brought the 2012 Olympics Now he's president of the

International Athletics Federation, and is bringing another big

international event, the World Championships,

to the capital early next month. Welcome. These championships are

going to have Usain Bolt and Mo Farah still in them, both are about

to leave the track certainly in terms of big events, how serious is

it in athletics to lose two huge stars? It is big, Usain Bolt is

retiring and Mo Farah is going onto the roads. Our sport will always

turn up outstanding geniuses and they both are. I think we have to

accept that in Usain's case it's not that nobody will break records, that

will happen but it is the personality. You need the charisma.

Yes, he feels a room and our sport will have to work hard to make sure

the world recognises that it is not just about Usain Bolt. It is a bit

like Ali going you don't replace him. Can you explain, there's going

to be an unusual ceremony for Jessica Ennis-Hill, why it is

happening and what will happen. We now have the technology to be able

to go back over previous World Championships and retest samples,

particularly in cases where there is suspicion or the technology has

frankly moved on to allow us to to detect things we couldn't detect at

the time so Jess will be receiving the championship medal she should

have won in 2009, 2011, I cannot remember which date it was. In the

past these medals in a way have been handed out in the local pub or by

DHL and we wanted an appropriate moment. Services dealing with

historic unfurnished. Can you assure people that in these Games they will

not be athletes cheating? No, I can't, and I think you would look at

me slightly askance, people will always cheat. What I can tell you,

and Brendan Foster made the remark in a national newspaper, that the

system is safer and we have the technology that allows us to be more

specific that what we are looking at. I would like to be able to tell

you we will have drug-free sport in the future. Everything we are doing

is engaged in trying to achieve that but we know that few people will

cheat. What we do have in place now is an independent athlete integrity

unit, we have independent sanctioning and discipline, and we

will be able to be a lot tougher and speed up the process. We now doping

has overshadowed your sport in particular. When did you know the

Russians were involved in such widespread doping? There have been

concerns for many years. I was competing for to years ago and from

that point on... You told the select committee I think that you knew in

December 2014 about this, actually you had received allegations four

months before that. The specific allegations were, as we know,

horrendous and we are now dealing with that. There is a difference

here between was there a global problem and was there a Russian

problem. People have known that for many years, the specific allegations

came to light... Dave Bedford sent you an e-mail with an attachment in

it which gave you all of the allegations, you were vice president

at the time and you didn't even open it. No, I had it on to the ethics

board... You didn't open it, did you? No, actually I was on holiday

at the time. That went to the right, appropriate organisation to be

dealing with that and I had done that in the past and will continue

to do that. But you were ahead of this or nearly head of this big

thing. Here are serious allegations absolutely on point and you didn't

read them, do you regret that? No, the allegations themselves were

handed on. I did not read them and that's clear but the issue was they

went to absolutely the right organisation and subsequently that

organisation actually have subsequently said they were looking

at them anyway. The select committee you spoke to have accused you of

deliberately misleading them on this subject. That isn't accurate and the

select committee which I appeared in front off for nearly four hours a

year or so ago... Damian Collins said I think Sebastian Coe does

suggestion to the select committee was deliberately misleading. That's

not my interpretation. A lot of these troubles happened under the

regime of your predecessor, and you were quite close to him for a long

time. I was a member of the council. He helped you in your rise to the

top. His son said without his father's help family wouldn't have

made it to top. I rather fancy he was helping a range of candidates.

He is now under house arrest in France, his son is wanted by

Interpol, do you think that on your way to the top you are a little too

close to that family? The organisation has in French law are

part of it allows us to work closely to bring this sorry episode as

quickly as we come to fruition. You called him your spiritual present at

one point, do you look at him and the regime now and think there was

something fundamentally wrong with what was going on? Yes, the issue is

very clear that the walls were too high. It isn't that we weren't

asking questions, plenty of questions were being asked. We were

not in a position to know whether the answers we were getting were

valid. I have been putting reforms in place, some 200 changes to our

sport, that will make sure that when answers are given like that, my

counsel, Federation's sightlines are clear and we are able to know the

answers being given are accurate. The problem in the old system was we

didn't have that and those walls have been removed. One final area

and question we can sort out is about the odd decision to give

Eugene Oregon the 2021 athletics meet. Eugene Oregon is also the

headquarters of the Nike corporation, which you were being

paid by at the time. Can you understand... First of all 23 people

voted for Eugene Oregon and the issue was a very clear one... It

wasn't an open bidding process. It wasn't an open bidding process at

the time. Every sport wants to get into the United States, it has been

the clear intent from the IAAF to have a Championships in the United

States. I would have loved other states to have bid for it. It wasn't

our choice, it was the United States track and Field association but it's

an important point here as well, and that is that Eugene and Qatar came

within three votes of each other and the council made a judgment that we

needed to have a presence in the United States. If anything

subsequently comes out of that that gives us any reason for concern or,

you know... You will investigate yourself? No, we have an independent

integrity unit that will do that but I have been clear we will look at

that. After the Olympics, a huge success for you, there was a lot

said about legacy and getting young people off the sofa and into sport

and it hasn't gone as well as you'd hoped. To what extent do you blame

government decisions on cutting budgets in schools? I don't actually

because for the first couple of years after the Games I was involved

in legacy work in this area, and in fact we found about 200 million to

go into primary schools sport. The broader point is before 2005 when we

won the right to stage the Games, we were haemorrhaging participation in

sport in this country. The very worst you can save post 2005 and in

the lead up to the opening ceremony is that 1.5 million more people

including a lot of young people have now taken up sport. More people are

running and cycling more than ever before, and more people are doing

triathlon than ever before. Participation has always been... If

you go back in ever greater numbers... The Olympic Park is an

extraordinary success. Lord Coe, thanks for talking to us.

Amid all the superhero and action movies currently

breaking box office records, there's still room

for small, intimate films that pack a big punch.

Maudie, which opens soon, sees Sally Hawkins play a 1930s

painter in Nova Scotia whose artwork becomes wildly successful,

despite hostility from her husband, the abusive Everett,

It's often beautiful to look at, but makes

I caught up with Ethan Hawke to find out how Maud Lewis's

Who told you you could paint fairies on the wall?

Well, who told you you could do that?

You said, "Make the place look all right."

No paint in my boots, no paint in my gear.

She suffered from juvenile arthritis.

She was severely mistreated by her own family.

She lived in absolute poverty and she's one

of the happiest people you'll ever meet, you know?

So, in a way, it's a film about happiness?

Well, it's about the transformative power of joy and how

this is a woman who, no matter what the surroundings,

she still noticed that the sun came up and she would put that

And she never even saw another human being's painting.

She would see prints of things but she never saw another

painting her whole life, but she painted roof

And her husband was this kind of very typical

of the period misogynist, who really saw the wife as a maid.

But he started finding that her paintings were selling

And he slowly began to take her in and see the miracle

And by the end of his life, he was taking care of her.

And to play Everett, you have to get inside the character, obviously.

You walk in a specific way and you talk in a very specific way.

Sometimes you hardly vocalise at all.

It's a sense of grunts and wheezes and so forth.

How much of preparing for the role is about trying to get

But a lot of it has to do with whether your imagination

Sometimes I'll read something and I'll know I can't get there.

I don't know that person, I don't know that world.

I've been going there a long time and I've taken my kids on fishing

trips with a lot of these guys and hung out with lobster fishermen

and I really like these people, and they don't seem unfamiliar

Now, you know this is basically a politics show.

You've spoken a bit about American politics in the past but you've also

said recently that you're turning away from politics towards art.

I guess presumably because politics always

My father is primarily a Republican and my mother is a Democrat

and I was raised being taught both points of view.

You know, and I was their kid, right, and I love them both, right?

And I also grew up in a time period where you would see

the Speaker of the House, Tip O'Neill...

He would fight with Ronald Reagan but then in an interview would talk

about what a good man he was and you would see, you know,

big right-wing Republicans speaking openly about what a wonderful

This is my childhood I'm talking about, right?

And I really grew up with this idea of loyal opposition

and for democracy to work, there has to be a loyal opposition

and I remember people would say, "You run on your differences

but you govern where we're united," you know?

And there was a lot of grown-up behaviour.

And what I'm seeing now is just so much behaviour that doesn't have

Are you saying it's a kind of retreat to tribalism?

When I made that comment, I didn't imagine the kind

And I know that it can happen but we have to rely on the grown-ups

and I'm seeing myself, like, "Oh, wow, here I am,

I'm a father of four," and maybe I wasn't realising that I was one

We can't accept people not telling the truth.

You know, it's funny, because I just keep finding myself

thinking about my grandfather, you know - we have nothing

to fear but fear itself - and how he used to talk

about all this and you would never have placed your identity

One of the things that's wonderful...

I just saw this movie Dunkirk and one of the wonderful...

To feel the national pride of England...

And for me, whose grandfather was a World War II veteran

and I think that that common enemy created a united...

My grandfather never thought of himself as a Republican

or Democrat, he was an American, part of the great

I think that part of why a person like Donald Trump could get

into power is cos a lot of good Republican people, their priority

As long as she lost, it felt like a victory

It reminded me of kids in our high school who hated our principal

so much they thought it would help to vandalise the school.

What helps is getting involved and not caring about who wins

So I feel upset, much more so than when you speak

But good art does speak to politics by just being about people.

Ethan Hawke, it's been great talking to you.

And Maudie, with Sally Hawkins in another mesmerising role,

opens in cinemas across the country on Friday the 4th of August.

If the first round of Brexit talks in Brussels have been

tough and gruelling, it hasn't dampened the spirits

of the International Trade Secretary Liam Fox.

He's in the US for talks about a possible free trade deal,

which can be discussed but not signed until after Brexit.

America is already the UK's second-largest

trading partner, though we currently export more

So when I spoke to Dr Fox from Washington earlier, I asked him

whether we might see more American goods and services

We actually have a trade surplus with the United States

As you say our trade is worth about ?167 billion.

We have done some internal work that reckons it could be worth another

40 billion in that by 2030 if we are able to remove

That will be a difficult discussion, all FTA discussions are to one

extent or another, but we've got great support from the United States

and the administration as well as Congress to help push

The kind of thing we could get out of this in terms of people

watching the programme, consumers, is cheaper food

Of course agriculture is always a very difficult issue.

Pretty much in any free trade agreement that has ever been done,

the last chapter to get agreed, as we are finding with Japan

at the present time and the EU, is agriculture, but we'll

want to look at a whole range of other things on financial

services for example and other parts of the service economy.

Right, let me turn to the big area of discussion with Britain recently,

which has been transition arrangements with the EU

You were talking yourself of these being weeks or months,

and then suddenly you have fallen into line with the rest

of the Cabinet and said no, a two-year transition period

as the Chancellor wants would be completely acceptable.

Is that the furthest ambition, I mean is it two years and not a day

Well, first of all, I'm actually more clear

the European Union is the right decision for the UK.

I think I'm more certain than that then even I was at the time

of the referendum, and I think that's because our economy

Our foreign direct investment's at a record level.

We've seen our economy continue to grow with record employment

and falling unemployment, rising confidence among our

manufacturers, so it seems to me we should go into this with a great

And I want to leave the European Union at

Once we have done that, once we've fulfilled our promise

to the British people, we can look to see what we're

going to do in terms of making that a smooth transition

for our businesses, to give them maximum certainty

And frankly, having waited for over 40 years to leave

the European Union, 24 months would be a rounding error.

Whether that's 23, whether that's 25, it's not a huge deal and nor

It's about the practical issues we would face,

about getting for example any new immigration system

into place, getting any new customs system into place.

That's a practical issue and I think we would want to get it out

I don't think people would want to have it dragging on,

but I think it's perfectly reasonable to have a transition that

I think that's what businesses would want us to have in Britain

and I think that's actually what our investors abroad

So, any transition period, in your view, must end

by the time of the next British general election?

I think we would have to be very clear that it was time-limited

and it was limited in its scope, we knew exactly what

For example, would we be able to negotiate our

own trade agreements during that transition period?

Because if we were not, then we wouldn't be able to take

full advantage of the freedoms available to us when we leave

So there's a lot of discussion to be had, but I don't think there's any

great ideological blockage on the concept of the transitional

or an implementation period, as I would rather put it.

So, it could be three more years in your view

The reason I'm pushing this point is that during that period,

we could still be paying into the EU, we could

still be under the ECJ, we could still be accepting,

to all intents and purposes, being inside the single market

rather than alongside it, and to a lot of people that

And you know very well there are people around

who want to use the transition period as a way of trying to subvert

That is why I think it's imperative that we leave the European Union

first and then any implementation period is done voluntarily

alongside the European Union to minimise any disruption.

Looking at the last couple of weeks, particularly in the last week

at Michel Barnier's body language and what he has said

about our negotiating position, it seems to me that the politics

are beginning to get in the way, as it were.

Are you worried about the tone coming out of the EU?

I don't think anybody has ever thought that the separation

issues between Britain and the European Union would be

easy, they are very complex, and clearly there's a lot of passion

The second part of the negotiation, which will begin when enough

progress has been made on the first part, will be about our future

trading relationship and I get an increasing number of not only

British but European businesses who say we need to keep an open

and comprehensive trading agreement when we get to that part

Otherwise Europe will become less competitive in a global context

and sometimes I think the debate is being conducted as though Europe

One of the things that EU negotiators say again

and again and again, particularly in private,

is that they are not sure who is actually in charge

Until we have settled the question of who is going to be Prime Minister

throughout the period and into the next election,

they find it very difficult to know how to negotiate.

Is it not time for the Conservatives to think again about who your leader

is going to be as we go through this process?

That's not the impression I get from talking to other European partners.

We made very clear our position, the Prime Minister set it out

That's not changed, we have been making that clear

in all the meetings both in Europe and beyond that the Government's

position is the same, that we believe we will be able

to get our legislation through Parliament.

We have got a working majority now in the House of Commons.

When most of our European partners are discussing with us,

they're very used to having minority governments themselves.

Would you like to see Theresa May remain as Prime Minister

Liam Fox, thank you very much for talking to us.

Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour Leader, believes he can become

That depends, of course, on a Tory meltdown in Parliament.

But what would it mean for the British economy

and our negotiations to leave the European Union?

Hugh got a reputation as a straight talker, clear answers. There was one

situation in which you won't give a clear answer. When you're asked if

you would like to lease Ilsley the single mother, you can't tell us.

The single market is dependent on membership of the EU. What we've

said all along as we tariff free access to the European market. But

to be absolutely crystal clear, we leave the European single market.

The two things are in link to. So the question is, the kind of trade

relations in the future and we've made it very clear we want a tariff

free trade access with the European market. Some of your colleagues have

also made it clear that to get that we would have to accept some version

of free movement of people once we've left the EU, a different free

movement of people, but some kind of free movement of people. I think we

made that clear during the election, that quite clearly there are a lot

of British people working in Europe, a lot of your people in this

country. We would do two things, one is going to the rights of EU

nationals to remain here, including a writer family reunion, and we will

expect the same to be done across Europe. And obviously, skills are

needed on both sides of the channel. Look at any major company in

Britain, they require European skills, as they do British schools

on their side. BMW and many others. To get full access to the single

market we accept those free movement of people from the EU coming to us

and vice versa. It will be managed on the basis of work required. But

it would not be stopping people on board? There would be European

workers in Britain and Britain workers in Europe, there wouldn't be

wholesale importation of underpaid workers from central Europe in order

to destroy conditions, particularly in the construction industry. So how

do you stop that under your plan? You prevent agencies recruiting

wholesale workforces, you advertise for jobs in the locality first. To

be clear, you don't stop people coming from Latvia or Poland, you

don't stop them at the airport or the border. They come here on the

basis of the jobs available and their skill set. What we wouldn't

allow is this practice by agencies, who are quite disgraceful in the way

they do it, recruit workforce low-paid and bring them here in

order to dismiss an existing workforce and construction industry

and pay them low wages, it is appalling. Would you allow everybody

who wanted to come here to come or stop them at airports? As I said, it

would be on the basis of economic skills required. So for example if

we don't need any more plumbers, you can go home. The need for nurses is

huge and we now have a problem of a shortage of nurses because of Polish

nurses who have either got -- gone home or are not coming. So if there

were Polish plumbers and we decided we had enough in our country, would

they be stopped and told to go home again or allowed in any way? We

would look at the situation on the basis of job and skill needs. This

is your current thinking that we could stay inside the customs union

or we would have to leave it entirely? I am looking to do an

agreement with the European Union on tariff-free trade access and of

course on trade relations with the rest of the world. The EU have said

quite clearly, and I think quite rightly, that they would only do

trade agreements, new trade agreements with countries that sign

up to the Paris climate change. President Trump has they wish to

leave it which calls into question this Government's strategy on a

one-off trade deal with the United States, which sounds awfully like

the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership to me. Coming

back to the Rebecca Long-Bailey remark about having your cake and

eat it, there is a choice to be made. Inside the customs union we

would have more access to European markets, so basically which side of

the fence do you jump? We have to make a judgment, we haven't jumped

on either side of the fence but the customs union is part of the

European Union. We could have a bespoke trade arrangement with the

European Union which says we would have broadly similar trade

arrangements with other parts of the world. Personally I would want to

strengthen the human rights element which is there, I would want to see

that stronger. There's also an environmental elements such as

methods of production which I would want to strengthen, so there are

areas I would want to go further than the European Union on trade

conditions. A lot of people watching are trying to work out if Jeremy

Corbyn is going to save them from Brexit and it sounds like that's not

your view. You were brought up under the influence of Tony Benn who

always saw the EU as a kind of bankers' conspiracy, he was

fundamentally against it, are you? I was against the principles of a lot

of the free market points of the European Union, hence my

disagreement with the Maastricht Treaty, and what Margaret Thatcher

was doing which was essentially to promote a deregulated free market

across Europe. Social Europe strongly supported them. I have

probably been in the European Parliament in Brussels are numerous

times over many years discussing those very issues. I campaigned for

a Remain vote on the basis of protecting those rights and

conditions but they could not continue to oppose state industry. I

wanted to see a regulated market. However the referendum is what it

is, we have that call now, I want to see a positive partnership

relationship with Europe in the future. A lot of people in this

country are burdened by high levels of debt because of student loans

they had to take out and you said shortly before the election, "I will

deal with it". What did you mean by that? It was in the context of an

interview I did with the new musical express and the Independent. I

recognised it was a huge burden and I didn't make a commitment to write

it off because we couldn't at that stage. We had written the manifesto

in a short space of time because it was a surprise election, but we

would look at ways of reducing the debt burden, recognising quite a lot

of it will never be collected anyway, and try to reduce... But the

point we absolutely made was that we were just -- that we would abolish

debt from the time we came into power. But if you are a young voter

and you heard those words, I will deal with it, you might have thought

Jeremy Corbyn will relieve me of my debt, but you won't? I said we will

try to reduce the burden of it, I never said we would completely

abolish it because we were unaware of the size of that time -- at that

time. John McDonnell is looking at this policy and we will be making a

statement which will set out our plans on it for the future. I must

move on to BBC pay. You will have seen the letter from my female

colleagues to the BBC's director-general, what is your

message to the BBC about that? I would sign the letter with them. The

BBC needs to look very hard at itself. The treatment of older women

I think is very important but also the gender pay gap is appalling. We

would insist on a strong gender pay audit of every organisation and we

would also look at a 20-1 ratio between the chief executive and the

lowest paid staff. The BBC is very much public sector. The ratio might

have a big effect on actors like Benedict Cumberbatch who at the

moment licence payers want to see in top-level dramas made by the BBC,

would the 20-1 pay ratio affects people like that? If he's employed

directly by the BBC, yes, otherwise it is a contractual matter between

the BBC and someone else. I support the renewal of the charter. I think

it needs to look at itself because the levels of pay are quite

astronomical. The pay gap rather is astronomical. And do you think there

needs to be more legislation on the pay gap across the piste?

Absolutely, we need to have the gender pay audit done, we need a

strong imposition of equal pay legislation. There's about 20%

gender pay gap in Britain but there's also the question of

promotion of women and it's not just at the top level. What about those

working in the national Health Service, in local government, in

small companies where the women know they are being paid less than a man

doing more or less equally the same job? That's the area of

discrimination that is so serious within our society and often the

loss of women's career progression opportunities when they take time

out to have children in their late 20s or 30s, they come back and find

a man they were working alongside a year before has shot up the scale

and they are left behind. It has been said on BBC's Westminster hour

that people from your constituency went to Tony Blair and said Jeremy

Corbyn is always rebelling against the leadership, we want to deselect

him, and Tony Blair said no, we are broad church. In the same spirit,

will you call off the dogs? The selection process is done by party

members. Yes, I was challenged during that period for reselection

and obviously I was reselected on all of those occasions by the

members of the party. There was a trigger ballots, there was a vote, I

was reselected. So there is no great thank you to Tony Blair on that one?

I have no idea if this conversation took place, and I don't see why

people should go to the party leader and say we want to influence what's

going on in the constituency. The whole point of democracy is that the

people decide. Can you really become Prime Minister within six months,

and how would that possibly happen? We will challenge this Government at

every turn. We have changed the agenda, changed the debate on

economy, on education, and so many other things. We are forcing them

all the way. I don't believe it is sustainable for this Government to

give money to the DUP to stay in office. It is unsustainable and I'm

looking forward to another election and I'm ready for it. I'm not sure

the rest of us are! No, but I am! Now a look at what's coming up

straight after this programme. We ask, should we be flying less?

And a female doctor Who, advertisers being warned about gender

stereotypes, are we getting too politically correct? Join us at ten.

We're almost out of time for today and we're off on our holidays.

We'll be back here on BBC One on Sunday 3rd September.

Until then, we leave you with a legendary

Broadway performer, currently playing another legend

Audra McDonald is starring as the great Billie Holiday

in the play Lady Day At Emmerson's Bar And Grill.

To perform Lady Day's signature song, Audra's here this morning

# So the Bible said and it still is news

# But God bless the child that's got his own

# But God bless the child that's got his own