23/10/2011 The Politics Show East

Here in the East, we're at Dale Farm in Essex in the aftermath of

the evictions. The time ran out for the travellers this week. The

talking was over and ultimately, so, too, was the resistance. But hasn't

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1772 seconds

the time come to avoid this ever Hello. Welcome to the Politics Show

in the East. I'm Etholle George. I am in the ruins of Dale Farm.

Around me is the debris from the lives of 86 families who lived here

for a decade. This week, Basildon Council attempted to evict

travellers from the illegal camp. In the end, they left of their own

accord. On the day, officers moved in at dawn. 38 people were arrested.

One of them was targeted by a Taser. Five people were injured in the

clashes. They were between police and residents supporters. This is

the story. It started early in the morning.

Lines of police in riot gear break through the eastern fence.

Throughout the day, protesters were removed from roofs, taken from

trees and manhandled into cages. Some travellers ran from the

eviction clutching possessions in their arms. They promised us

bailiffs and police to ask us to leave police believe. I am

disgusted. Riot police to come to women and children. What do they

think we are? The protesters took up the fight and police battled

under a barrage of broken bricks. Paramedics took the injured away on

stretchers. We came under hostile action from the protesters. They

threw concrete at us and tried to hit us with implements. We managed

to make Our objective which was to get here around the scaffold.

the efforts turned into Clearing the iconic gallantry, the day

turned into a violent confrontation between two sides. I am clear that

if the truth was given to the wider world, they would see the criminal

law of this country has been broken. The expectation is on public bodies

to enforce the law. There battle may be over, but has this done

anything to further either cause? Or have they created irreparable

damage to the reputation of both sides. The next day, it took half-

an-hour to take down the gate. The travellers seem to have had enough

and wanted to leave with their heads held high. They walked out

with their supporters. We are more than happy to have the support.

Also they will be our personal friends for ever. The travel has

say they have nowhere to go. Illegal sides have been

proliferated since 1994, when the Conservatives scratched the law

that required councils to provide them. It took the Labour Party 11

years to restore it. Then it was changed. Will these scenes prove to

be a watershed that could see the provision of sites up to increase,

winning them the war in the longer run?

With me is Councillor Tony Ball, the leader of Basildon Council. He

oversaw the site clearance. The manner in which the clearance was

carried out came as a shock to many. The police had got information over

the few days preceding the operation that it would be

impossible for bailiffs to enter the site piece for lead to carry

out the decision of the courts. They decided to take the lead. The

scenes we saw proved that was the right decision. In the end, four

pitches stay. The road to the scrapyard it stays. It is not a

green site. The green belt has many purposes. It is to stop residential

development joining up. It stops urban sprawl. More about the future

for travellers? Will the council provide any more legal sites?

hope there is learning out of Dale Farm. I would not wish any

community, traveller or settled, to go through this again. Basildon is

the largest provider of authorised sites in the eastern region. We

will have to learn from this. provide other sites? I understand

that you are supposed to provide according to local need. There is

need. The 113 sites we have will grow. Those families will need to

be provided for. We will have to provide more legal sites as we go

through the framework process. But there is a difference between need

and demand. This was supposed to have planning permission. It is not

a blanket ban on travellers in the borough. Once again, I ask whether

you will welcome travellers here? We have a long history of living

side by side with travellers in Basildon. All planning applications

are considered on their merits. There is a challenge for both

communities to found appropriate land that is suitable. Why it has

this done to the reputation of Basildon? I do not want to see what

we saw on Wednesday morning. Thank you.

What is the future for the provision of travellers' sites. I

spoke to Richard Howitt, the Labour MEP who was against the forced

eviction at Dale Farm. I also spoke to John Barron -- John Baron, and

asked if he had represented the interests of his travellers'

constituents properly. It is right that Basildon Council clears the

site. Otherwise people would ask why there is one law for one group

of people and another for another. Those people who criticise Basildon

Council, such as Richard on this show, I would ask him. Why has he

been critical of Basildon Council, who have simply enforced the law.

Richard Howitt, it is right the travellers were moved on, despite

words of human rights. They got a fair hearing. It is right that if

they are found a legal site and round they were on an illegal site.

I have not said anything different. John Baron did not answer the

question. 50 children born in hospital locally, those children

who use the schools and worship in local churches, where the church

leaders with me try to mediate and find a different solution. There

are not many people in Basildon -- there are many people who had the

alternative view and thought and mediated solution was possible. If

this is not about discrimination by the council, why are they selling

off seven green spaces across the town, with many residents opposed

to it? They are prepared to sell off green spaces for bricks and

mortar houses, but not to find space for travellers. It was the

Conservatives who ended the obligation on councils to provide

legal pitches. The coalition scratch targets for new ones. What

evidence is there that councils will create more sites? We can be

clear what has happened here. There is a shortage of sites. But, in the

many years of a Labour government, their strategies did not have one

authorise site. Going forward, introducing incentives to get more

authorised sites created. You cannot get away from the fact that

we either believe in the law in this country, or not. You cannot

pick and choose. Let me answer that. Let's be clear. The law could have

been respected without the terrible and shocking things we saw this

week. Basildon Council could have saved �18 million of council tax

money they used on this forced eviction. The travellers could have

been involved in a voluntary resettlement to a different site,

including a site in Basildon. The government had said they would

allocate the land. We have been talking to the travellers for ten

years. After ten years there is a point when you have to stop the

talking and enforce the law. Have we witnessed a watershed moment

this week? Watershed in the sense we have the largest unauthorised

site in Europe. We clear to that site. We did not want to see the

violence. When you have protesters throwing bricks and rocks, using

iron bars in a threatening way. I believe Essex police, the bailiffs,

and council officials acted in a professional way. They did their

job. I want to ask about this turning point. Things could get

better from this time onwards? new coalition government, it

abolished financial help that the Labour government had four new

travellers' pitches. A parliamentary answer last month

showed the number of pictures had been going down under Labour

consistently. I hope this is a watershed. I do not want to see

what happened in Basildon repeated. I hope we will never see this

shambles again. John Baron, are travellers welcome in Basildon?

course they are welcome. Basildon District has over 110 authorised

sites, more than any other councils in the country. We have a proud

history of living in harmony with travellers and gypsies. This is not

about racial discrimination. This is about people who contravened

planning regulations. If we did not put that right, the other people

who contravened regulations would ask why we had let them off. It

would not be fair. What about the future? We need to accept there is

an issue of racial discrimination. It is not a popular thing to say.

Basildon has been treated differently in terms of the sell-

off of green space. We must recognise that travellers are an

ethnic group. They have their own culture. If they are prepared to

move eagerly, their rights must be respected. This is not about racial

discrimination. I have residence writing to me saying they have

accidentally contravened the planning regulations and I write

back telling them to obey the law. We are simply doing the same as

regards travellers. If anybody suggests it is discrimination, it

is irresponsible and risks inflaming the situation.

This is Margaret McCarthy. She lived at Dale Farm for ten years.

Tell us about the community here. It was wonderful when we moved here

ten years ago. We are such a close family. We thought this would be

our home. A chance to send the children to school and have our own

doctor, we did not have to rush to the emergency department. Everybody

was happy. A what about this past week? This last week has been like

a nightmare. Everybody's heart is broken. The children crying, where

are we going to live? The older people are worried. Nobody knows

where they will go to. Everybody is asking what they are going to do,

and there is no answer. How many families have moved on to the legal

side? Maybe 35 families. naysayer? They cannot stay. They

are there to find out what will happen next. Where will they go?

There is no plan. We were trying to get sites built. We tried so hard.

They are breaking up a big community that was so close. We

will now be on the side of the road, breaking the law. How long will it

take to get over what has happened over the past ten years? I will

never get over this. I am not sleeping. I keep thinking about...

I am sorry. Everybody is feeling the same way. I cannot understand

how Basildon could not take the opportunity when the government

gave them a piece of ground, that they could not build sites, instead

of ruining lives. There is no justice for us people. Travellers

have no rights. No matter what country. Nobody wants to have

travellers' sites built. I have to leave it there.

Thank you. How is the government going to address the issue of

travellers' site? Is their new thinking now the coalition scrapped

the planning framework. We asked the minister with responsibility

for travellers. We want to remove anomalies that

can give rise to this. For example, it is difficult if somebody sets up

and all -- unauthorised development, at the moment it is difficult to

enforce the law in these cases. The other thing I want to say it is we

want to protect and support travellers who play by the rules.

We say to councils the regional strategies go. There will be

stronger enforcement powers for those who break the law but that

you should as part of your assessment look sensibly at the

provision of authorised sites. We have made money available to assist

local authorities to build proper sites. We are giving travellers to

stay on authorise side's greater protections under the law. You have

faith in councils when they are left to make these decisions

themselves? You have faith they will do the right thing, because

travellers have certain rights to have places to live. They will not

say we are not having any in our area? You yes, like any part of

their local planning policy, they have to be based on evidence. And

public examination by a an inspector. You cannot be capricious

about it. I have spoken to councils in the east of England. Some

already have authorised sites, doing a really good job. Others

accept the reality that if they can have a sensible assessment of need,

it can reflect what is in their area, they will recognise that and

that is what we want to do, to work with them and help them to do that.

Somebody interested in what the government plans are for

travellers' sites is Gratton Puxon from the Gypsy Council, which

lobbies politicians for the rights of gypsy and traveller people. What

are your feelings about this week? This started as a small planning

issue. We needed to get retrospective planning on this. It

is not an unusual thing to happen but it escalated into a national

scandal. Internationally, people have seen the UK joined the

countries who are prepared to use are necessary and unjustified

actions to move the community along. I was shocked to see that. I have

been in the travellers Civil Rights Movement for 50 years and have

never seen anything like it. I am sure it is not the end of Dale Farm.

We have a public inquiry to see if we can get planning permission for

land just across the a road. Talking about the politics of this,

with the Conservatives at ending the requirement on councils to

provide pitches, did that make a difference? Were we have tried to

work with every government. This has gone against everything we work

along with, that is to have a duty on councils to provide. And at

least now to provide land where travellers would develop their own

communities, a caravan park. why you viewing the work of

successive governments? We have taken a big step backwards. The use

of Tasers and battens to move people away. We have gone back into

a bad era. We have gone back into terrible racism and intolerance.

The way forward possibly, if the government can get its mind around

it, is to say these are designated pieces of land that travellers can

buy with a guarantee of getting planning permission. Most

travellers do not want to go on council sites. We want sites that

are run by travellers for themselves.